It all started with two threads...

Concurrent Killerthread on TBY2K Forum...

Survey of expected enemy engagement ranges

http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=0013n6

Concurrent Killerthread on Prep Forum...

Survey of expected enemy engagement ranges

http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=0013mh

-- Anonymous, July 13, 1999

Answers

Anyone with a name like Killer (DominantSniper@yahoo.com) wants to get noticed.

At any rate...

He ""appears" to be coming off an ISP from...

Federal Reserve District Banks (FRB2-DOM)
Washington, DC

-- Killer (DominantSniper@yahoo.com), July 08, 1999
Asked by Killer (DominantSniper@yahoo.com) from 151.198.183.195 on July 08,1999.

Postings from 151.198.183.195 in the TimeBomb 2000 (Y2000) forum
Doing a reverse DNS now: 151.198.183.195 maps to ... p1fed2.frb.org

When you check "frb.org" at the SWITCH WHOIS Gateway...

http:// www.switch.ch/search/whois_form.html

Registrant:
Federal Reserve District Banks (FRB2-DOM)
20th & Constitution Ave, NW
Washington, DC 20551
US

Domain Name: FRB.ORG

Try going to that domain and it's not working. Might be an "intranet?" But, it is registered.

-- Anonymous, July 13, 1999

Now,

After seeing that I sent out an alert to Chuck and BigDog and a couple others. And planned to just "watch."

And Killer started another thread...

Discovered: Type Two Pollys

http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id= 00147X

Asked by Killer (DominantSniper@Yahoo.com) from 151.198.183.194 on July 09, 1999.

Postings from 151.198.183.194 in the TimeBomb 2000 (Y2000) forum
Doing a reverse DNS now: 151.198.183.194 maps to ... p1fed1.frb.org

Hes very consistent about what he comes in on.

And later... he says hes leaving...

Gotta go to work -- best wishes

http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id= 0014Dm

Asked by Killer (DominantSniper@yahoo.com) from 151.198.183.194 on July 10, 1999.

Postings from 151.198.183.194 in the TimeBomb 2000 (Y2000) forum
Doing a reverse DNS now: 151.198.183.194 maps to ... p1fed1.frb.org

-- Anonymous, July 13, 1999

But then Killer also starts posting as Kelly before saying goodbye...

What is a troll and what types are there?

http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id= 0014Cn

Asked by Kelly (peacefullhome@yahoo.com) from 151.198.183.194 on July 10,1999.

Postings from 151.198.183.194 in the TimeBomb 2000 (Y2000) forum
Doing a reverse DNS now: 151.198.183.194 maps to ... p1fed1.frb.org

Is he/she odd or intentionally provoking?

That frb.org is certainly odd.

-- Anonymous, July 13, 1999

Then Killer/Kelly goes a bit posting wild... starting with the thread where Uncle Deedah says goodbye...

Enough Zenough

http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id= 0014Ah

"Yea, I know what you mean. Did you see the fur fly with Killer tearing into poor hippydippy on Killers thread? I thought the fourth of july was last weekend? Is there a full moon out tonight or something?"

Answered by Kelly (peacefullhome@yahoo.com) from 151.198.183.194 on July 10, 1999.
DNS now: 151.198.183.194 maps to ... p1fed1.frb.org

And as...

PETITION: BRING KILLER BACK1 WE MISS HIM!!

http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id= 0014ha

"I repost -- on appeal!! Sign this petition, please, if you miss Killer. He was fun! After reading his post, I felt like going out and finding a flag to salute!! Why was MY petition to bring him back deleted, but Harry H.'s petition to keep Killer away? How "fair" and right is that in the "home of the free and the land of the brave"?"

Asked by JustMe (JustMe@on.appeal) from 151.198.183.194 on July 12, 1999.
DNS now: 151.198.183.194 maps to ... p1fed1.frb.org

And as...

Relly want to know what all the fuss is about here

http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id= 0014oj

"This is a serious question. I just printed out and read 24 pages!! of comments on the "Censorship: IMO the moderators are fair" thread. I missed the thread Midwest Mike was talking about. I would like to make up my own opinion on the matter. What was said in the thread Midwest Mike refered to as the "Princess Di" thread? Some insult to the former, deceased Princess Di? What was said to get everyone so riled up? I really want to know because this forum is important to me and I want to feel like I know what is relly going on here.

Thank you very, very much!!"

Asked by Kelly (peacefullhome@yahoo.com) from 151.198.183.195 on July 12,1999.
DNS now: 151.198.183.195 maps to ... p1fed2.frb.org

Slight switch... p1fed2.frb.org

And as...

Forum Moderators: How about a "New to Y2K" category for the newbies?

http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id= 0014gY

"And while they are at it, how bout that diane fan page? I would be a fan. Seriously, then all the trolls would have a place to go and stay away from here. They leave the prep place pretty much alone, don't they? please, diane, save us from this insanity!! be brave, we needz you!!!

A loyal fan. can I have your autograph on the back of your picture? I would pay $5.00. Think it would be a good post y2k suv'neer!!"

Answered by magoggy (magog@grog.fest) from 151.198.183.195 on July 12, 1999.
DNS now: 151.198.183.195 maps to ... p1fed2.frb.org

And as...

WHY DELETE ANY THREAD? LET IT SCROLL OFF!!

http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id= 0014f7

"Why delete any thread? Why not just let them scroll off? Are they so offensive or frightening that you moderators can't stand their existance? Like one person said, "you don't have to click"!! I say it's OK to delete the obscene stuff -- leave the other stuff be. Why play "supreme court" with other's rights to decide for themselves what is "relevant" to their y2k preping? Didn't see the Princess Di thread Midwest Mike was talking about. And that brings to mind something else. What's wrong with the humorous post or threads anyway? With Y2K likely to be disruptive like lots of those here think, I for one am thankful for those who would help me maintain my sense of humor thru all this. Thank you. Let time (and scrolling off) do the deleting for you -- instead of playing "cops and robbers" just because you moderators can. Just my "humble opinion". Is it allowed????? "

Kelly

Asked by Kelly (peacefullhome@yahoo.com) from 206.187.44.52 on July 12, 1999.

But this is the post thats a different number...

Postings from 206.187.44.52 in the TimeBomb 2000 (Y2000) forum
Doing a reverse DNS now: 206.187.44.52 maps to ... 206.187.44.52

Only used once and could be a copycat but is either...

Data Research Associates, Inc. (NETBLK-NETBLK-NET4-DRANET) NETBLK- NET4-DRANET 206.187.0.0 - 206.187.255.255

Or...

Lewis and Clark Library System (NETBLK-LCLS-0-NET) LCLS-0-NET 206.187.43.0 - 206.187.54.255

If you look at... Data Research Associates, Inc. (NETBLK-NETBLK-NET4- DRANET)

Data Research Associates, Inc. (NETBLK-NETBLK-NET4-DRANET)
1276 North Warson Road
St. Louis, MO 63132-1806

Netname: NETBLK-NET4-DRANET
Netblock: 206.187.0.0 - 206.187.255.255
Maintainer: DRA

Coordinator:
DRA Net NOC (DRA7-ORG-ARIN) noc@DRA.NET
(314) 993-4280

And check out their dra web-site...

http://www.dra.com

They are a leading provider of client/server library automation systems, networking services and other related services, with more than 10 years experience connecting major institutions to the Internet and a proprietary backbone that includes redundant T-3 connections to Internet interconnect points. Our services also include dedicated Network Service Provision for corporations and institutions.

Could the Federal Reserve District Banks be one of their clients?

Just an aside thought. To continue...

-- Anonymous, July 13, 1999

The real Killer/Kelly then answers the same thread...

WHY DELETE ANY THREAD? LET IT SCROLL OFF!!

http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id= 0014f7

One persons (see how non-sexist and politically correct I am?) junk is another person's treasure!! Get out of the "appraisal business", moderators!! Just a "humble suggestion". Is that allowed here?

Answered by Kelly (peacefullhome@yahoo.com) from 151.198.183.195 on July 12, 1999.
DNS now: 151.198.183.195 maps to ... p1fed2.frb.org

And on...

Another report of leave cancelled for FBI.

http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id= 0014jn

No, do do bird. They don't do this -- agency wide -- every year. They are doing it for the first time this year. Duh...use your brain!

Answered by JustMe (JustMe@home.alone) from 151.198.183.195 on July 12, 1999.
DNS now: 151.198.183.195 maps to ... p1fed2.frb.org

Then initiates another troll info request post...

Whats with all the troll post of late?

http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id= 0014na

What's with all the troll post and threads of late? Especially those threads that are for forum regulars like chicken little. I'm glad to see that one deleted. And what about that one on Diane as the "queen" with somone wanting a fan page? Who would want a fan page? Diane, what do you think about this? One of your admirers? And I notice a lot of us versus them of late. But who is us and who are them? Is it the moderators against everybody else that doesn't have delete power? Is it those that want to keep the forum "pure" verses those that want to post anything? I would like the moderators/regulars to comment. Especially Diane and chicken little who seemed to be singled out by threads. What do you two think is going on around here lately?

Asked by anonomoose (anon@anon.anon) from 151.198.183.195 on July 12,1999.
DNS now: 151.198.183.195 maps to ... p1fed2.frb.org

And return as Kelly (mentioned earlier above)...

Relly want to know what all the fuss is about here

http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id= 0014oj

And answers someones question Kelly, you could be a clever little Troll, could you not? with...

I don't think so based on what I know about what a troll is. But I know people think what they want. All you do when you say "not so" is drive somebody else deeper into "are too" territory. If that's what you want, so be it. Enjoy your "conspiricy theory jollies".

Now, will somebody fill me in? I've become a regular. Want to stay informed on what's going on im my new "cyber-village". Think it's necessary for me to properly evaluate the posters around here so I know what to give weight too, and what to take with a block of salt.

OK?

Answered by Kelly (peacefullhome@yahoo.com) from 151.198.183.194 on July 12, 1999.
DNS now: 151.198.183.194 maps to ... p1fed1.frb.org

And then says...

Goodbye you mean people and trolls!!!

http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id= 0014r3

I have had it with the insults!! I have not been here long -- and don't plan on wasting any more of my time around such mean people. All I did was ask a question and I get no answers, just insults.

Have a nice life, you people. Goodbye and good riddence!!!

Asked by Kelly (peacefullhome@yahoo.com) from 151.198.183.194 on July 12, 1999.
DNS now: 151.198.183.194 maps to ... p1fed1.frb.org

-- Anonymous, July 13, 1999

A few more "other" snippets, then I'll get to the point of all this...

What is a troll and what types are there?

http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id= 0014Cn

What about that Killer guy. Do you think he was a Man among Men or a Troll among Trolls. What did just blow through here? Waddya thinks?

:)

Answered by JustMe (JustMe@just.wandering) from 206.187.53.71 on July 10, 1999.

DNS now: 206.187.53.71 maps to ... 206.187.53.71

Goes back to...

Data Research Associates, Inc. (NETBLK-NETBLK-NET4-DRANET) NETBLK- NET4-DRANET 206.187.0.0 - 206.187.255.255

Lewis and Clark Library System (NETBLK-LCLS-0-NET) LCLS-0-NET 206.187.43.0 - 206.187.54.255

Also answers as hippydippy2...

Gotta go to work -- best wishes (Killer)

http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id= 0014Dm

"gotta go to work" !? on a Saturday ?!

Why do I feel somebody's fixin to get their birth certificate rovoked curtesy of our man from uncle (Sam)?

Yikes!!

Answered by hippydippy2 (hiding@headdown.com) from 206.187.53.71 on July 10, 1999.

And...

Killer,

Romeo, Romeo, where art thou Romeo...come still my beating heart...er on second thought!!

Answered by Juliet (Drama@the.opera) from 206.187.53.71 on July 10, 1999.

The games continue, back again on...

Relly want to know what all the fuss is about here

http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id= 0014oj

After reading 24 pages on the above thread, I don't think a grain will do it. Why can't someone just answer my thread with something helpfull and on target instead of just accusing me of being a troll? Don't those of you who have been around here a while like to keep up with what's going on on your forum? Or doesn't a new comer deserve the same around here?

How about a helpfull reply? Is there anyone helpfull out there?

Answered by Kelly (peacefullhome@yahoo.com) from 151.198.183.194 on July 12, 1999.
DNS now: 151.198.183.195 maps to ... p1fed2.frb.org

And... Hey! I'm getting fed up with the insults!! Maybe I picked the wrong place here. Nice of you to not answer a sincere question when answers to sincere questions was the topic on the above mentioned thread. Maybe the people criticizing the moderators were right. And maybe I WILL leave this forum since all I get are mean responses instead of nice ones. By the way, I think whoever is answering me in such a mean way is the troll!!!!!!! You provide nothing of substance!!! I've begun to doubt whether this place is worth spending any time anymore when a TROLL of all people labels and accuses other people of being a troll. Who ever you are that's being mean to me, I say YOU are the TROLL!!!

You begone, troll!!!

Answered by Kelly (peacefullhome@yahoo.com) from 151.198.183.195 on July 12, 1999.

DNS now: 151.198.183.195 maps to ... p1fed2.frb.org

There are a bunch more links but that about show what is going on here. Except...

-- Anonymous, July 13, 1999

Trolls rarely send personal e-mail but these two I share to further set the stage...

Date: Fri, 9 Jul 1999 14:41:37 -0700 (PDT)
From: Dominant Sniper dominantsniper@yahoo.com
Subject: Thank you
To: sacredspaces@yahoo.com

Diane,

Thank you for posting the cross reference to my "expected engagement ranges" thread in both threads. The thought hadn't occurred to me. Thanks again. BTW, I must say I was quite surprised by the nature of post others made to my threads. While they were very different from what I expected, they were very revealing to me concerning peoples points of view.

Moreover, a compliment to you. I think the quality of your post have been excellent. Thank you for being such an informational "go getter". Also, last year I remember all the flack you endured from people concerning your belief systems (i.e. new age, non-violent, ect.). You impressed me quite a lot by the classy, dignified and respectfull manner you responded to others.

From my vantage point, like you, my current guess for the actual technical impact of Y2K is a "5" overall. This will of course vary quite a bit from "personal situation" to "personal situation". I hope your efforts to be helpfull to others concerning Y2K are richly rewarded. Best wishes to you and yours!

Regards,

Killer

And from Kelly...

Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 19:08:09 -0700 (PDT)
From: Peacefull Home peacefullhome@yahoo.com
Subject: Why so much meanness on TBY2K
To: sacredspaces@yahoo.com

Diane,

You seem nice. I posted a question on what all the fuss was about of late and all I get are insults. Why? What has been going on around here lately? Are people here always so mean? What was said in the thread about Princess Di that midwest Mike mentioned that got everybody so stirred up? I like this forum, but some "trolls" insults are really making me mad! What is all the fuss about?

-- Anonymous, July 13, 1999

Someone using the... p1fed1.frb.org and p1fed2.frb.org DNS really wants to cause some disruption here.

The main players seem to be...

DNS now: 151.198.183.194 maps to ... p1fed1.frb.org

DNS now: 151.198.183.195 maps to ... p1fed2.frb.org

The frb.org is

Registrant:
Federal Reserve District Banks (FRB2-DOM)
20th & Constitution Ave, NW
Washington, DC 20551
US

Domain Name: FRB.ORG

Administrative Contact:
Rigoli, James R (JRR128) James.R.Rigoli@BOS.FRB.ORG
617.973.3781 (FAX) 617.973.5918

Technical Contact, Zone Contact:
Giles, Rick (RG2663) Rick.Giles@IDS.FRB.ORG
617-973-5939 (FAX) 617-973-5918

Billing Contact:
Rigoli, James R (JRR128) James.R.Rigoli@BOS.FRB.ORG
617.973.3781 (FAX) 617.973.5918

The 617 area code is in the state of Mass., BTW. (Probably the ones whove registered the service for the FRB).

And the code 151.198.183.195 is the network? service provider...

Bell Atlantic (NETBLK-BELL-ATLANTIC1)
1880 Campus Commons Drive
Reston, VA 20191

And the other player is...

Data Research Associates, Inc. (Lewis and Clark Library System)

DNS now: 206.187.53.71 maps to ... 206.187.53.71
DNS now: 206.187.44.52 maps to ... 206.187.44.52

So... why am I bothered by this one?

-- Anonymous, July 13, 1999

Because I suspect we are seeing some sophisticated trolling action from someone sanctioned by...

Federal Reserve District Banks (FRB2-DOM)
20th & Constitution Ave, NW
Washington, DC 20551
US

Domain Name: FRB.ORG

And add that to some other puzzle pieces Kevin dug up...

Federal Reserve Locations

http:// woodrow.mpls.frb.fed.us/info/sys/banks.html

Board of Governors of the Federal Reserve System

20th & Constitution Avenue N.W.
Washington, D.C. 20551
202/452-3000

FRB public Web-site...

http://www.bog.frb.fed.us/

And...

Look at where the December 1998 meeting of Koskinen's group got together (hint: 20th & C):

The minutes of the meeting sound a lot like Declan M.'s article "Feds Plan Y2K Spin Control."

It also mentions the Senior Group's meeting on January 21, 1999.

http:// www.y2klinks.net/Y2Kcouncil981216.htm

PRESIDENT'S COUNCIL
ON YEAR 2000
CONVERSION

Meeting Minutes December 16, 1998

WELCOME

John Koskinen, Assistant to the President and Chair of the President's Council on Year 2000 Conversion Council, opened the meeting at 205p.m. in Meeting Room E of the Federal Reserve Building, 20th and C Streets, NW, Washington, DC.

[snip--to end]

And...

Federal Computer Week
1999 Federal 100 Winners

http://www.fcw.com/pubs/fed100/1999/winners3.htm#Malphrus

Stephen R. Malphrus
Director, Information Resources Management
Federal Reserve System

For running a Year 2000 working group representing financial institutions.

"Steve has probably created the most organized working group that we have. They have regular monthly meetings; they have detailed agenda packages; they have now had two or three industry summits. He has a great air of authority and enthusiasm for what he does, [and] he has engendered respect from other agencies."

- John Koskinen, President's Council on Year 2000 Conversion

-- Anonymous, July 13, 1999

So... Question?

Would John Koskinen and "someone" sanctioned by the Board of Governors of the Federal Reserve System be trolling the TimeBomb 2000 Forum in an effort to disrupt it?

Diane

-- Anonymous, July 13, 1999

Well, ya got a case, why not ask 'em?? You DO have all of the relevant addresses, why not just ship them the whole lot of stuff that you put together, and ask if they have a problem with someone using their intranet and connections to do this stuff???

There is ALWAYS the possibility that this person is unauthorised to use the net in this way, too.

(trying to look on the bright side)

Chuck

-- Anonymous, July 13, 1999

I hope it's just a bored employee (no pun int.). But these days you never know. A public undressing might be in order, with just the words "banking organization" used to show bias. Or "federal employer" to show the govt. connection.

-- Anonymous, July 13, 1999

But,.....let's be sure before we try to remove any clothes, shall we??

C

-- Anonymous, July 13, 1999

Just a friendly warning to Killer...

Wow! 4001 post! That's commendable, Diane!

http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id= 00150p

My, what a number! 4001 post this forum alone. Remarkable! Congratulations, Diane. You have certianly put in a lot of time and effort around here.

Sincerely,

-- Sigmund (Analyst@see.clearly), July 13, 1999

Asked by Sigmund (Analyst@see.clearly) from 151.198.183.195 on July 13, 1999.
DNS now: 151.198.183.195 maps to ... p1fed2.frb.org

If he doesnt pay attention, then Ill take it to the D.C. office.

*Sigh*

Diane

(I'd prefer it was a bored employee than the other option.)

-- Anonymous, July 13, 1999

Might be more along the lines of the assassination in 1170 of Thomas a Becket, once Lord Chancellor of England and Archbishop of Canterbury, by knights of the court of Henry II, who, having heard their king exclaim in a rage, "Will no one rid me of this troublesome clerk?" It's said that Henry did not intend that Becket be murdered, though it was well known that he was greatly displeased with his former Chancellor.

I can well imagine someone of weight at the Fed griping publicly about some of the contents of the Yourdon Y2K forum, and lesser lights in earshot deciding to curry favor by muddying the waters here.

Just an analogy -- who knows? (besides the Shadow...)

-- Anonymous, July 13, 1999

Diane, my friend, I say this out of concern, not anger, so please take it in the gentle spirit in which it is intended:

You've got to stop doing this! You are single-handedly destroying the forum. Not the "Trolls," you! Is this what you want? There are times where half or more of the forum's energy is spent on these kinds of non-issues, and probably 75% of the trollery has become directed towards you. And, you feed it. Someone makes a comment, and you charge back, and all hell breaks loose.

I've noticed a few times, when you are absent, when things even out. There may be a comment or two during those times, but you're not around to reply, and it drops off the attention screen.

Diane, I think it is dangerous for you to have the power to know who is posting from what IP. You have abused this power, and it does no-one any good whatsoever to "out" people.

I believe it is a mistake to attempt to "control" the conversation from a moderation standpoint, as opposed to doing it as a participant. You were a brilliant participant, but unfortunately, you are now a laughingstock. Also, giving participants a "vote" to delete posts has caused probably close to 10% of the posts to read "delete" or some such non-sense. I believe that the policy should be that NOTHING gets deleted EVER, and then rarely, there will be a post that is obvious.

I want to make it clear that I feel you should absolutely be commended for the time and energy that you devote to doing this, but in my very humble opinion, I think you should give it up. What you are doing is not healthy for the forum, and, more importantly, it appears to not be healthy for you either.

-- Anonymous, July 13, 1999

Because sir Patrick, the devil is in the details.

I would dicount this, and would agree with if the threat were not "real" - as indicated by the specific and directed threat to "shut-off" the forum through direct contact with the MIT offices. That threat (with the weight of federal funding to MIT behind it - and the "politically correct" excuses covering as radical, right-wing, incideniary, racist, and condoning violence, etc. - as could be demonstrated by selective quotes from somebody like "sniper" - plus the abject fear the federal government has about bank runs - makes a FBI shut-down likely, not "impossible."

Further, the reason doesn't have to be publically justified - but could easily be "supported" - particularly at a Ivy League school - through a few simple posts like this, used carefully in the right places by a single preson who has actively and visciously already declared his "hatred" of the forum.

Whoever it is has my interest because of the "history" he calls - it took some sophisticated reading between many entries to find your (Diane's) original comments about the "new ageism's" and your original postings about the CA Oakland fires.

In my opinion - it shows an ability (easily done with the right tools) to search the forum "from behind" and get (in chronological order) all of your postings. And that capability is NOT available from the "front screen" by a regular user, a forum moderator, nor Phil. It could be doen from outside with a "backdoor" to the database and enough resources to program not only a filter - to get the Oracle database itself - but also to get all individual entries sorted by "submitter".

___

Of course, I'm really just jealous of the NSA's (FBI's) Cray's - I wish I had that ability.

-- Anonymous, July 13, 1999

Diane

Two things

Pat is correct that you are taking the forum details to seriously. A leader should not be appearant to the followers. The function of the forum should be the primary focus and not the content. (Barring the obsene - violent threats) The troll thing is counterproductive. It is getting to the point that folks are getting accused when they have not done anything.

The attention from the "bigger players" indicate that the forum members must be "attracting" people that are interested in the mindset of said forum members. If you want to know how people stand on an issue create contriversy. Killer is a very well versed person from what I have seen.

Could they be "collecting" data on the members of the forum and their views? Or is it some kind of think tank that we are providing? Who ever "killer" is, it would have been interesting to "play" with the we know that they know that we know kind of thing :o).

By the way there is an assault on the forum (at least before). Y2K Pro and some of the other "trolls" are alot more informed that we would be lead to believe. More than once I have seen them jump on posters that post really critical information. How could they have known the material and post immediately after? This is of course IMHO but I have seen it happen to many times. The post that comes to mind clearly is a repost that Taz did from Rick Cowles site and Y2K Pro was right there. It was the "UCS White House presentation".

anyway enough text.

On the other side of the coin Diane this FRB info is VERY interesting. I follow their documents from time to time. Going to have to watch myself on the forum.

-- Anonymous, July 13, 1999

Patrick and MoD company,

I accept your comments in the spirit made. And do keep it in perspective.

While Ed was moderating, and he was, he was the target for all kinds of attacks. Those have devolved on me now. (Oh. goody). But they also would have landed on anyone trying to follow-on. His choices and busy schedule, meant he just let it evolve into a free-for-all.

Some of Eds comments... reguarding the Forum situation... that are sharable with the Moderator Team...

My decision to drop off the radar screen probably appeared precipitous... I also think that the Y2K scene is going to get increasingly confrontational and nasty as we move into the fall. We've all seen this on a personal basis already -- and while some people will respond in Paul Milne's fashion of calling the DGI's "buttheads" (or worse), most of us have found that it's easier to just keep quiet, and focus on our own personal activities. Gary North seems to enjoy the confrontations and personal attacks on his character; I don't. And since I've already said just about everything I can think of to say about Y2K, I don't see any need to say it again and again and again. ... -- Ed Yourdon, 30 May 1999

The constant flame wars, bashing, troll-baiting, etc. is one of the reasons I decided to bow out; it's like herding cats, or trying to supervise a bunch of neurotic children who decide to throw temper tantrums all at once. -- Ed Yourdon, 10 Jun 1999

Re herding cats: actually, when I was doing it, it was more like being a kindergarten teacher during recess, with a hundred kids all running around in the playground and getting themselves in various sorts of minor trouble. It's not possible to supervise anyone, and it's not even worth the trouble from keeping the kids (mostly the boys) from getting into little scuffles with one another. It's only when they get really vulgar with one another -- e.g., pulling their pants down to expose themselves -- that you have to step in and take control. Then they all howl and call you names for a few minutes before returning to their play ...

The other thing to keep in mind is that "recess" will be over 197 days from now, and then it won't matter very much what they were doing... -- Ed Yourdon, 17 Jun 1999

Id ask each of you to ask yourselves What would I do if I knew "larger" (and smaller) forces were trying to majorly disrupt the forum? And some of the larger forces were attempting to agitate the smaller ones?

And do keep in mind... you feel responsible, because Ed asked you to be.

More of Eds comments...

Okay, you are now the senior sysop. If you choose to share the burden with other folks, that's up to you. ...

But if it makes sense to you, feel free to change anything/everything to fit your own personality. ...

I appreciate VERY much your willingness to take over, and I'm sure that hundreds (if not thousands!) of other other forum participants will appreciate your efforts in keeping the forum alive. -- Ed Yourdon, 30 May 1999

In your case, Patrick, your approach is to never delete anything obscenity/profanity, OT trolls or trash posts. Thats your personality. (And a lovely one I might add).

If I asked Russ/BigDog or Chuck that same question, I suspect the response would be an immediate... dont put up with em and delete them on sight. As the guidelines for the Prep Forum indicate. (And their personalities are lovely too).

In fact, each Moderator would likely take a different approach to dealing with the situation.

What is not at issue is, there is most definately a systematic attack going on, on the Forum.

Would you just let it happen? Do nothing? Would you tell other posters like OutingsR, Lisa, a and so many others that they just have to sit there and take it? Ignore the trolls and theyll go away? They never have. Not now... not when Ed was moderating.

Why are they not likely to?

Because, as the above Killer info indicates, there are bigger forces at work... nationally and globally.

If you ALL want, we can do a test.

I wont post or touch anything for two weeks, as me, and you can see what happens. (Can Y2K post news as someone else).

Bet the trolls would have a field day with that one. Because it is their avowed intention to take down this forum.

And their continuing actions will even further disgust many. The popularity of the troll-free policy on the Prep Forum is testimony to that.

If someone was trying to do that to your home what would you do?

Comments?

Diane

(BTW, the Federal Reserve District Banks stuff above and the whole c4i saga indicate, that this forum is part of the Y2K story, IMHO).

-- Anonymous, July 13, 1999

This is good, Diane. I do have a number of things that I want to say in response, but I need to finish working now. I just wanted to acknowledge that I read this. Expect a fuller response later this evening...

-- Anonymous, July 13, 1999

Actually, the one comment that I'll make now in response, which is probably the most important idea that I want to express, is that this forum is not your home. Talk to you later, and smile, dammit!

-- Anonymous, July 13, 1999

"Cyber-home" Patrick.

;-D

Gonna go "relax" and try to chill out now.

(Over 100).

Diane

-- Anonymous, July 13, 1999

I very much disagree with the statement that Diane is single-handedly destroying the forum, Patrick. The trolls would have redoubled (requintupled?) their efforts anyway. Like any predators, they see a weak spot and zero in. No matter what you say or don't say to them, they will be there.

In addition, like horses sensing the home straight, they know that government spin has been all too successful and this knowledge adds to their enthusiasm to damage TB2000.

Their major impetus is the saving of newbies from our infectious thoughts. The reason you see so many troll posts with comments indicating we're all in concrete bunkers with howitzers and God knows what, we're biased against everyone who's not white, anglo-saxon and protestant, and we're just DYING for TEOTWAKI so that we can institute some sort of right-wing religious government is because they think if newbies see those charges, they'll believe them. And of course a lot of them do.

The trolls also have (and have had since at least December of last year, which is as far back as I can get BFI to load) this odd idea that we're all connected with survival food vendors and are making a packet out of scaring people about Y2K.

When you understand their motives, you can easily see that not much is going to discourage them--except deleting their poison so it doesn't go in the archives. There's still plenty to see but if Diane hadn't deleted a lot of posts, the recent archives would be a veritable cauldron of bubbling acid and pus.

I think Diane's deletions have been successful in deterring trolls--has anyone seen very much of Paul Davis, Mutha, Super Troll or Maria, for instance? Pat and Cherri don't post much either.

The vast majority of those who complain about deletions are the very people who are causing the problems. I notice that deletion-supporters are becoming more numerous. I think they've seen the good stuff going on at the prep forum and want a bit of that order for the regular forum.

Diane's tactic of repeating the same message to the same person numerous times was very successful and I urge more of it. A standard response to a guideline-breaker would not only have that effectiveness, but would also save you a lot of time and stress, Diane.

As for "home trolls," Ed actually showed indirect support of OutingsR when he deleted an Old Git post I made-- signed by OR! In addition, he wrote (on 14 May):

I haven't visited the BFI forum, and don't plan to -- all it will do is make me angry or depressed or sad. All of this has been a very new experience for me during the past few years, because I've spent my entire professional career dealing with logical, rational, left-brain (but also introverted, anti-social, egotistical) computer people. I've raised kids, so I'm familiar with tantrums and other forms of unacceptable behavior, but I didn't expect it to be so vitriolic as what we've seen in the DGI camp. I first ran into Charlie Reuben on the csy2k forum about two years ago, and eventually had to give up in any attempt to carry on a rational conversation with him ...

This GI-DGI debate has given me a small insight into the nature of ethnic, religious, and political hatred ... and has (to my surprise) made me a little more sympathetic to politicians. I think there is good reason to have strong negative feelings about some of them, but I'm now more sensitive to the notion that there might be some honest, ethical, hard-working politicians out there who are also subjected to this same kind of vitriolic, constant attack.

The only "advantage" (loosely speaking) of the Y2K debate is that it will be all over in roughly 230 days -- as compared to some of the ethnic and religious rivalries that last for centuries.

In his next mail, Ed wrote:

I'm far less worried about Charlie Reuben (an individual crackpot who seems to have nothing better to do with his life other than rant against GI's) than I am about the possibility of the forum being monitored by folks from the FBI, CIA, NSA, and goodness knows who else. You've seen postings from "PNG", right? I've gotten email from him indicating that when he checked his web log to see who was visiting his site, it turned up several "hits" from agencies like these -- and his web site is based in Japan, I think!

I believe these snips show Ed is just as concerned and bothered by the pollys and, more especially, the alphabet agencies who might be monitoring the forum. (I trust you'll keep his remarks confidential, please.)

I also believe Ed gave up the forum because he saw the trolls becoming more active and vicious and knew he didn't have the time (or heart, I'd add) to deal with them. I think he hoped that Diane would be able to take action against them--and she has.

As for the trollery being directed at Diane--it reminds me of that saying, "Well, while they're attacking you they're leaving someone more vulnerable alone." I do believe if they didn't have Diane to attack, they'd attack someone else--as they have in the past. As for the action letting up when Diane's been absent--she's been absent because she knows THEY'RE not active at that time! Diane knows the major trolls are fairly quiet over the weekend, for instance. Usually, anyway!

I disagree that Diane is a laughingstock. She has made a few mistakes, which we all acknowledge and understand. The vultures have swooped on them of course, and have attempted to portray her as a laughingstock. There is no way anyone on this forum is not going to make a mistake or leave a chink of vulnerability, and there is no way the trolls are going to miss it. Diane is only the figurehead,; if she is a laughingstock, then we are all laughingstocks. The current Debunker name for Diane is "Fuhrina." This should tell you something.

Patrick, you are obviously at the opposite end of the spectrum from me, when you say that nothing should ever be deleted. What about the ass-fuckling post--you think that should have stayed? I can't think of any more than maybe three people on the forum who would have said don't delete that cultural gem. I rather think you should address your plea to the trolls, Patrick. They should give it up; what they are doing is not healthy for the forum; and it is probably not healthy for them, either. Diane CANNOT give it up now, the trolls will only swoop in with renewed vigor. Diane needs our support and she's got mine--in spades.

This is written by the granddaughter of a man who fought for the IRA in County Cork in the 1920s; it comes from one whose father was a Labour Councilman in a coal-mining village, just after WWII; whose paternal grandfather marched all the way from the North to London in the devastating and crippling General Strike in the late 1920s. And it comes from a woman who worked for a long time in the War on Poverty in this country. I strongly resent being labeled a gun-toting, white supremacist, whacko extremist who wishes for the downfall of this country, by the trolls, I can see clearly what they are trying to do--THEY are trying to stifle the free speech of this forum, not Diane or the rest of us. Their agenda has been clearly shown in at least three instances. And just as right-wingers infiltrated and disrupted the civil rights and amti-war movements, so are these people trying to do it to us.

Frankly, if Diane steps down I think it will be the end of the forum; it will cut the heart out of it. And that's what the trolls want.

Diane and I have had our differences--I have made no secret of that. But I believe she is acting solely in the best interests of this forum and there is no question that the forum is better off with her than without her.

Sorry this is long and rambling--I should be in bed after starting to unpack the delivered contents of a 12 x 15 x 10 storage room, stuffed to the gills, but I felt so strongly about this issue, I had to add my thoughts.

Right, I'm off! Diane, chin up, stiff upper lip. Remember, you have British blood in you and the British lose every battle but the last!

'Night all.

-- Anonymous, July 13, 1999

hey...I made it here. I lost the password so forgive me for coming in late and ranting a little bit.

First, I want to out myself. I've been posting anonymously much more lately...usually as something like "forum regular" or "just trying to help" or "just having fun". For the most part, it's because I'm getting very worried about just what this thread indicates.

I really don't know jack but I have no doubt that the forum has become very, very interesting to people like Koskinen and information gathering agencies. "Data Research Associates, Inc." huh? Sounds like the perfect CIA front to me.

It seems very plausible to me that a tactic information gathering agencies might use would be the same utilized by our everyday, average trolls like Mutha, Maria, Y2k Pro, Decker. Create different identities and use them when you feel the need.

So, since I started doing this intentionally this week, I kinda have some interesting insight. It's pretty cool to post anonymously and not have to worry that someone will send you strange email.

Just consider the benefits. You can pose a question on either side of the spectrum and just wait for the responses. You can raise an opinion, even if you don't hold that opinion personally, and then wait and see who will rail against you and who will support you. I haven't gone this far but I thik the power must be really, really amazing.

Diane, would you consider doing this? Try posting using an alter ego when you decide to "out" someone. I honestly get worried about you.

In a way I wish you would have kept silent about being a forum moderator or a sysop. You've put yourself in a situation which will bring the same kinds of attacks that Ed recieved. And, with the information that Ed has, it doesn't surprise me that he would choose to lay low right now.

There is so much on the line and so many people who stand to lose if things go bad. There are many who will do what ever they can to hold on to power. They will use what ever means necessary. They will manipulate any situation to fit their needs when possible.

I am of the opinion that the Federal Government can't be proactive about a situation like Y2k. It's too broad and too dangerous. In order to be proactive that means that politicians would have to stick their neck out and that isn't in their best interests. The government is much more able to act in reaction to a problem.

Of course, that is the government we see.

The other side of the government, IMHO, is very up on being proactive. They will also do what ever is necessary and use what ever tool they have in their means to stay on top of information and no one is elected. And, I think Koskinen has full access to them.

And, I'm resigned to believe that it will not matter what is done by the government or the spin shops or the community prep groups. I've come to the conclusion that regardless of whether a problem is caused directly by Y2k glitches or the perception of Y2k disruptions or the fear of Y2k problems all these things will come to pass.

And, I think that as Koskinen has gone about his whirlwind tour of communities he's come to the same conclusion. He is constantly talking of the "human factor" and "overreaction". It seems these days he makes comments about this more than anything. I think Koskinen has finally started to understand "systemic." But it isn't computer systems and embedded systems that have made him a GI. It's all those people out there who say, "well, I think everything will be fine, but I'm going to pull my money out of the bank just in case."

So, I think Koskinen has trolls who visit this forum but I don't think they're here to disrupt it. They're here for information. They're here to learn. They're here to manipulate if they can but more to learn what buttons to push in an awareness campaign. It's market research. In order to sell a message you have to understand who you're targeting.

I'm closer to OG and Robert than I am to Patrick in how I view your work with the forum. However, I understand Patricks concerns. By being visible you have become an easy target for those who just want to shift focus from the real issues. And, lets face it, pollies seem to only want to shift focus. They can't back up their position when it comes to the real thinking points where logic becomes essential.

You should ask yourself if this is really worth the effort and don't feel bad if you realize that maybe it isn't. Ed made that journey too.

We have real evidence that the posters out there that don't use a real handle or email address have an advantage. They can flame and bicker and troll without fear of serious retribution.

Now we have even more bizarr evidence of another kind of troll. Killer/Kelly is different. He/she uses real email and even goes as far as searching out and fishing for replies, responses, etc. People like this worry me because they are ghosts who can shape shift into different entities and spook you or flame you one moment and the next they can offer their concern and support, all the while actually buiding a personality to go along with their new identity. IMHO, I think this demonstrates an agenda behind the scenes.

Question: Can these people utilize the same kind of techniques to "ping" and get the DNS info on posters?

As for the CIA, the FBI, the NSA...C4i... hey...PNG disappeared. He suddenly just quit, closed down and vanished off the radar screen. One of the last things I remember him posting was on the C4i thread when he said, "you're a ghost son and I aint afraid of no ghost." But he sure did disappear like one.

Of course, then Mr. Naval College chose to post to the thread. Why? Why would this person even choose to address us on a public forum? How do we rate in the grand scheme of things? It just seems out of place to me. Why would a person such as that even bother with us?

We are a research project. The TBy2k forum is THE #1 forum on the MIT server. It beats all others on the server by a very wide margin. Hey, ask Andy Ray (who seems so very much like Decker)...he's even using us as research for a book : )

You've all become very important to me and I've come to care for you and I just wanted to extend to you my gratitude for everything, especially letting me r

-- Anonymous, July 14, 1999

Michael:

Good points all. And I agree, Diane needs an alter ego. But you know and I know how difficult it is to conjure up another persona; it's so easy to slip into your own style and give yourself away. Would it be possible for Diane to funnel her points through you? That way it would be her thoughts-your style. Difficult to pin down. Diane, you have such a lot of stuff to do as moderator and it's very tiring. Oh, I'd be happy to be your funnel too! Maybe Michael and I could split the duties.

I'm thinking more and more that Killer is just a regular troll. Why? Because by now "They" know Diane can look at the ISPs and figure out a few things--they'll be posting under rented e-mail providers. It's the ones with innocuous addresses that'll be the spooks.

"They" ARE watching this forum, we do know that, from that friend of mine who is very definitely legit, has a high level of clearance (and is about to go higher, is being vetted right now, which is why he's laying low), and is in a position to know such things. I can't be more specific than that, but please know that I checked him out as best I could with questions from Sweetie, who had an equivalent clearance in the Navy. I know you all hate this "friend of a cousin of an in-law who knows the janitor business," but it's the best any of us can do.

Diane, let me know how I can help.

-- Anonymous, July 14, 1999

Thanks guys,

Let me "thunk" a spell on this.

Patrick e-mailed me last night saying he had typed a long response in the the text box then his Netscape Browser went kaput. Sometimes ya just don't "love" computers, huh?

Michael,

I've known I've been monitored, most likely by the CIA, et. al., since about two weeks after posting here last fall.

There were strange things happening with the phone, strange people driving by the house s-l-o-w-l-y and very unusual e-mail messages showing up in my private e that were kind'a threatening.

Quite sure they've done all the checks they've needed to and found I'm not associated with any organization that might make their top 10,000 list. Actually... virtually no organizations. Not a "joiner."

I do have a California "weird" metaphysical background and have taken some sacred geometry classes from someone who is regularly "monitored" by them. He's very open about what he teaches... even finally wrote his long awaited book. Also purposely been MORE than open about who I am and what Ive done... or not. My intuition last fall said that was important. Quite sure they have a long file by now.

So what?

I would consider myself more a government Y2K watchdog than anything else. And many Watchdogs, are just fine... Rick Cowles, Michael Hyatt, Cory Hamasaki, etc. And I also refuse to go down the fear pathway, of watching 360.

The c4i incident was a real eye-opener as to all the levels of government games being played here. Have you noticed most the militia-types have disappeared? Weve had a mass exodus since then. PNGs disappearance I found interesting as well.

I wont go into all the theories of why I think this forum was started by Ed Yourdon in the first place, or who the original posters actually were. Dont know, and dont really care. It was just obvious to me last fall, that a much bigger game was being played and observed by many, which is why I decided to park myself in this little bit of cyber-space.

As pertains to coming out as the Sysop. Well, that was sorta done for me, by someone else, and I decided to acknowledge it. When I come out as a Moderator, I knew Id receive the most attacks... see...

Announcement: Just One More Forum Moderator Logging In

http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id= 000xBl

It was a timing thing. Also knew that the trolls and polly slings and arrows would be flung my way instead of at Ed now. Such is life on the internet.

The De Bunker trolls have more that displayed their intentions. *Big Sigh* What I take issue with is the big guys coming in and purposely agitating the little guys. Which is what I DO think was/ is going on with Killer/Kelly. That makes my blood boil! (I know... relax).

I admit to posting a few things anonymously since taking over. Rarely before then.

There is something in me that feels going underground is just not being open about the Y2K realities. However the idea of remaining anon in dealing with any new troll stuff that crops up, has merit.

Perhaps, a trial period between now and August 1st, of simply NOT responding to them... as me... is in order. I cant help thinking something is working with the sheer number of people, deciding on their own, to try and out the De Bunker crowd. Caught this comment a posted form csy2k...

Hamasaki: Is CET an ELQ?

http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id= 0015Bp

[snip]

I suspect that Diane Squires is responsible for this. Even since she shook that can of Hartz Polly-Off in the bedding and feeding area of TB2K, we've had this horrid infestation of Pollys in c.s.y2k.

Poor Steve Heller has been biting and scratching, I've got a rash on my right arm, and paul milne, let me tell you, we had to dip him and put one of those big funnel collars on him.

I'm guessing that there's really just 3 pollys, Poolley and two others who are playing change-my-handle. I hope none of these Pollies is an egg laying queen. If one is, we're done for, the weather is warm and it's prime Polly swarming conditions. -- cory hamasaki http:// www.kiyoinc.com/current.html, 1999/07/13

LOL. I think that honor goes more to the OutingsR folks and Lisa.

I dont KNOW what the correct answer to all this is. But to hide doesnt seem right either. You know the saying... nowhere to run, nowhere to hide.

I STILL feel STRONGLY that the trash posts and obscene/profane posts should be deleted. They have no place here. There is also an internet-wide precedence for moderating forums in like manner.

Guess thats about it... for now. Patrick... your turn.

;-D

Diane

-- Anonymous, July 14, 1999

I was just wondering what happened to Arlin? Did he get "spooked" or is he on a long vacation?

Mike as usuall a good summation of the situation.

Diane I worry more about your ability to keep up with the attacts more than the security of the forum.

And a comment on Killer. In my humble opinion he was telling us something. He mentioned the best way to deal with violence is to avoid it. Those are wise words. If you mess with a bull you get the horns.

-- Anonymous, July 14, 1999

Brian,

When I sent out the MoD e-mail re: this thread, Arlin's bounced back as undeliverable. Try sending him something. He's trying to do what he see's and his job too. Some get paid, some volunteer. Some have little agenda's, some have big one's.

The fact that Killer, in the private "e" to me, he says...

"Thank you for being such an informational "go getter". Also, last year I remember all the flack you endured from people concerning your belief systems (i.e. new age, non-violent, ect.). You impressed me quite a lot by the classy, dignified and respectfull manner you responded to others."

Well, that speaks "volumes" to me. Then I compare and contrast his words with his actual forum actions and trying to "agitate" the pollys and trolls against me.

That speaks "volumes" too.

Brain, thanks for your concerns. That's WHY I wanted a MoD team in the first place. As in Y2k and the forum... we're all in this together.

*Sigh*

;-D

Diane

-- Anonymous, July 14, 1999

BTW Arlin is still out and about. just working on other things, like Tues Night Chats, etc.

Night Train

-- Anonymous, July 14, 1999

You're all such great people...always able to force me to think harder!!!

Diane, I'm not really worried about the government agencies and their activities. I'm more concerned with the "organized" trolls and what their capabilities are. And, what lengths they would go to hold on to the status quo. Gotta believe they're scared too, just about different things.

Hilary, I'm up for anything.

Mike ===============================================================

-- Anonymous, July 14, 1999

Old Git wrote, quoting EY:

In his next mail, Ed wrote:

I'm far less worried about Charlie Reuben (an individual crackpot who seems to have nothing better to do with his life other than rant against GI's) than I am about the possibility of the forum being monitored by folks from the FBI, CIA, NSA, and goodness knows who else.

I'd like to know why he would have been worried about who's monitoring the forum. There's a certain amount of political ranting for one side or the other, there's a certain amount of bickering (I'm not counting JBD and the like), some (moderately) extreme positions are expressed -- nothing actionable, nothing you can't find in a thousand other fora and lists, much more restrained than you find in many. Political disaffection is endemic these days -- what's to fret? Since I have no access to restricted information, I can't be charged with anything more felonious than thinking out loud. Isn't that the case for almost everyone here?

Please-- someone fill me in here.

On the delete policy -- I suport Old Git's position here. Patrick admits that there actually are some posts he would favor deleting. So we're not arguing a principle here, we're only haggling over different thresholds of acceptance. The relatively peaceable kingdoms found on the Prep forum and on Rick Cowles' forum demonstrate what a difference a firm hand can make.

I wonder---- had the Yourdon forum never existed, would the Naval War College scenarios have been so comprehensive?

-- Anonymous, July 14, 1999

Tom, I can only guess at why Ed was so concerned. I felt that he was a little surprised to find out that certain well-known agencies seemed to be monitoring the forum. (Note his small bit of naivete that politicians get hate mail.) Then I think he became concerned because one's thoughts turn to "lists" and possible further investigation of more extreme posts. Just as extremists are said to patrol the fora for converts, so, of course, do the "alphabet agencies" patrol for miscreants.

I didn't ask questions, reasoning that Ed probably had enough contacts to check out the likelihood after PNG reported his findings; besides I figured if he'd wanted to say more he would have.

Having read Ed's thoughts, you all might find it a little easier to understand why he abruptly dropped out of the running. I believe he was excited about making a difference with the Senate Committee and was thunderstruck to find out he was practically ignored, that it was all a sham. I think he felt it was an honor to be asked to speak, and was "gobsmacked" (as those of us of the vulgar persuasion say in my country) to find that honor turned into insult. It was the last straw. I think he quit the forum because he lost the heart to go up against the pollies; the fight was knocked out of him. And who's to say that wasn't the intent?

-- Anonymous, July 15, 1999

I've sent an e-mail to Ed explaining some of this "Killer" situation, and requesting permission to share a complete e-mail with the Mod team as to "why" he left.

Here's hoping he responds.

Tom, I'm trying to take a "light" hand with the deletes and sticking to total nonsense, obscene/profane, trash posts, HTML problems and personal details inadvertently posted. And because it was the precedent that Ed set. (Thank goodness the Prep Forum is a place of relative calm).

But, my "light" deletes are viewed as "heavy" ones, (by Patrick I assume) and some others on the forum--mostly the hecklers, trolls, pollys, and professional agitators like Killer (et. al.).

Patrick's larger issue with me and my approach, is the "way" in which I (and a bunch of others) are trying to tackle the trolls, hecklers and disruptors head-on. It's a fair concern. As I said earlier. We'd likely all do it differently.

But, Ed DID hand off the responsibility to me.

*Sigh*

Never said Id be perfect. But I try. And try to learn from the mistakes.

And its also just NOT in my nature to do nothing when amassed forces are most definately trying to take down the forum.

That said, well await Eds response, and I simply wont react to the trolls for awhile. Theres certainly enough hot news available to keep *most* focused on Y2K... for awhile.

At least... until the weekend hits again.

Diane

-- Anonymous, July 15, 1999

Subject: Re: A Request: To Share One Of Your E-Mails To Me With Just The TBY2K Moderators
Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 09:21:05 -0400
From: Ed Yourdon

Diane,

Greetings [snip]...

... Sorry to hear you and your co-moderators are having to put up with so much spam and trolls. Haven't had a chance to read through the links you've provided, but will do so tomorrow. My hunch is that you're dealing with a frustrated techno-nerd who works in the bowels of the Federal Reserve office, rather than a high-level person -- but who knows? This stuff is really weird...

Meanwhile, please feel free to share that email with your moderator team.

[snip]

Cheers,
Ed

###

The e-mail...

Subject: Re: How are you doing this morning?
Date: Sun, 30 May 1999 08:47:59 -0600
From: Ed Yourdon

My decision to drop off the radar screen probably appeared precipitous, but I've been thinking about it and discussing it with my wife for the past few months. I had been thinking of waiting until July 1st, but the date was arbitrary. I think that my visit to Washington last week was the straw that broke the camel's back; not only was it depressing for all of us to present our testimony to an empty room (Bennett and Dodd were the only two senators who bothered showing up for the hearing), but all of the other discussions, meetings, and interactions in Washington (including a meeting with Koskinen) have convinced me that nothing is going to change. Koskinen seems to truly believe that the Y2K problem can be "solved" by simply reassuring people that it won't be that bad; he may be the greatest liar of all time (after all, he is a lawyer, and he has the same alma mater as the Clintons), but in the few face-to-face encounters I've had with him, he seems genuine and sincere.

In addition to the primary reasons described in my "sayonara" essay for dropping off the radar screen, there is also a secondary economic factor. Contrary to the popular rumors about how people like me have been making tons of money off Y2K, the reality is that my income has actually dropped by about 50% during the past two years because of all the "pro bono" work I've been doing; and the royalties from the "Time Bomb" book are far less than the high-tech books I've written in the past, because it's relatively inexpensive, and because the publisher sells it to bookstores at a 50% discount. I have no complaints about the economic impact Y2K has had on my life, but my wife does remind me, from time to time, that we've still got college tuition bills to pay for our kids, and we've still got Y2K prep work of our own to finish off. "It's really wonderful of you to go out and try to save the world," she has said to me, "but how about coming home and saving our family now?"

I also think that the Y2K scene is going to get increasingly confrontational and nasty as we move into the fall. We've all seen this on a personal basis already -- and while some people will respond in Paul Milne's fashion of calling the DGI's "buttheads" (or worse), most of us have found that it's easier to just keep quiet, and focus on our own personal activities. Gary North seems to enjoy the confrontations and personal attacks on his character; I don't. And since I've already said just about everything I can think of to say about Y2K, I don't see any need to say it again and again and again.

Re the forum: please keep in mind that you don't have to set up a web site. All you need is an ordinary browser that lets you access the "admin" page on the discussion forum. The whole thing resides on Phil Greenspun's server at MIT; there is no cost or overhead on your part at all. If you do want to create your own site for posting of articles, etc, you're obviously welcome to do so -- but it's not necessary. As for reading all of the detailed information from Phil Greenspun, you're welcome to do that too -- but reading through the notes and comments on the "admin" page will be sufficient to get you started.

I'm delighted that you'll be discussing all of this with [snip], and I think it would be great to have a "forum team" to help with the moderator tasks. I would be very honored if you said something like "founded by Ed Yourdon," but that's entirely up to you.

I'll be on the road tomorrow, flying back East. But I'll be logging in at least twice a day, so let me know if you have additional questions.

Best of luck in your new role!

Cheers,
Ed

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Hope that at least addresses WHY he left.

Once hes had a chance to look over the Killer stuff, then Ill ask him your question Tom re:

I'd like to know why he would have been worried about who's monitoring the forum.

Diane

-- Anonymous, July 15, 1999

BTW,

Does anyone have any other questions you would like relayed to Ed?

-- Anonymous, July 15, 1999

Aw heck!!!

Good ole Killer (DominantSniper@yahoo.com) a.k.a. Kelly (peacefullhome@yahoo.com) is BACK!!

In defense of Diane J. Squire

http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id= 0019ak

Asked by Doesnotmatter (Anon@here.now) from 151.198.183.194 on July 28, 1999.
DNS now: 151.198.183.194 maps to ... p1fed1.frb.org

G.D. Trolls!

-- Anonymous, July 28, 1999