I was very surprised by most of the responses my previous thread generated. But I discovered something. There are two kinds of "pollys". The first type don't wish to be "disturbed" by thinking about Y2K. You know the type..."It won't happen because it would be too bad...besides, I'm having too much fun right now spending and borrowing against the gains I've made on my retirement funds and equity I've built up in my home!" The second type were those who responded negatively to my post -- ignoring my clarifications and attributing all sorts of mindsets to me that are off base. These folks may be "preparing" for shortages and the like -- but, while claiming to be every stripe of "peace and love, feed the world, ect", reacted violently and hatefully to my question (instead of answering it), "disturbed" that anyone would actually think 300 million people in these United States would be anything other than kind, loving, respectfull and gratefull to be fed a handfull of rice or beans today out of ones horde -- then go their merry way the next day, smiling and thanking God for the good samaritan they were leaving in peace on their hippy/dippy journey of peace, love, and whatever other ninny puke you care to believe. Didn't anybody ever tell them to leave the fairy tales in the nursery? Some other "infant" might want to read one or two!

I was going to see where people were at, what kind of info they needed, offer helpful advice and the benefit of my training and experience...but apparently most couldn't wait to "attack" someone who would challenge their infantile image of "one big happy world/family". I was NOT TRYING TO PROVOKE ANYONE. ANYONE WHO WAS PROVOKED OR DISTURBED WERE BOTHERED BY THEIR OWN UNEASE AT FACING UNPLEASANT REALITIES THEY WISH WERE NOT SO AND DON'T WANT TO DEAL WITH.

I found the two post by one person most illuminating. In his first one, he stated he didn't expect any looters at all...stated anyone who was worried about looters should move to some sort of ghost town...stated that anyone planning on killing looters when they could avoid it by abandoning their homes instead was sick. The guy's next thread was quite different. In it he claims not to be a pacifict...he has plenty of guns and ammunition...AND IF HE FEELS THREATENED HE WON'T HESITATE TO SHOOT BE IT ANIMAL, HUMAN OR WEARING A UNIFORM...that no amount of preparation makes a person bullet proof...duh...then again says to move...then accuses me of finding it "more fun" to prepare to fight and kill rather than preparing to "save the looters". I've often spared life I could have legally taken!!!

Based on my experience, I think these "wishfull thinking type two pollys" are going to be the most dangerous after Jan 1, 2000. Why? Because once reality intrudes upon their fantasies, and the hungry hordes don't smile, display proper gratitude and thanksgiving at their benevolent handout of a free bowl of rice or beans, they will get EVEN MORE PISSED OFF AT THE TIRED, HUNGRY AND COLD THAN THEY GOT AT ME! How dare those ungratefull people display a "it's not enough, I want more for tomorrow and the next day, and the next day..." attitude! Screw em! Give me my gun! I'll show 'em!...I pity the next person who stumbles by these "peace and love, feed the world" type two pollys after their illusions get pricked by reality. Forgive me for not joining their little picnic and sitting around the fire singing kumbaya or whatever that song is. DON'T TRUST TYPE TWO POLLYS -- THEY WILL TURN ON YOU!!! THEY PROTEST TOO MUCH ME THINKS!!!

Your thoughts?

Remember...one shot...one kill...

Lurking,

Killer

-- Killer (DominantSniper@Yahoo.com), July 09, 1999

Answers

I like your stuff, keep posting...

-- BiGG (supersite@acronet.net), July 09, 1999.

I must admit that I have a "huge" crush on Y2K Pro. He is my kinda man, one who talks in circles and says the same shit over and over again.

-- Chicken Little (panic@forthebirds.net), July 09, 1999.

You mentioned that you had/did work for Treasury. Are we to assume from this that your view from the "inside" is that the Treasury believes Y2K is going to be TEOTWAWKI? You certainly post as though this were at least your own opinion.

You also imply a situation of widespread and numerous predators that will require long-range defense and sniping. Is this accurate?

Finally, this also implies to me that normal civil order will have broken down in many regions and that even martial law, if imposed, will be ineffective. Again, is this consistent with your view?

-- BigDog (BigDog@duffer.com), July 09, 1999.

Dear BigDog,

I don't currently work for the U.S. Treasury. Haven't made any inquiries. Therefore, I can't say. However, I will say that I currently believe Y2K will TECHNICALLY be, overall, in the United States, a "5" -- HOWEVER, I also currently believe that the REACTION OF PEOPLE to Y2K will make it about 3-4 times worse than it would otherwise be. I currently believe after a period af time...a few weeks to a few months...things will, behaviorally speaking, settle down quite a bit. THEN you will see the better side of human nature emerging as people start working together to improve their common lot.

The DISTANCE of denfensive power depends on the specifics of one's personal situation; the geography, ones chosen "residence", the presence of friends or foes, the degree to which "the authorities" can deal with miscreants, what one is actually capable of, ones ability to improvise, ones "non shooting" defensive and evasive skills and tactics, ones abilities to AVOID WHENEVER POSSIBLE violent confrontations, the ratio of attackers to defenders, the relative power and skill of use of whatever weapons each side has...luck... you get the picture. Where long range comes in, as does night vision, good optics, ect., is in ascertaining the threat at a distance, and then ACTING based upon ones best judgement in the matter while acting in a moral -- but lethal if necessary -- manner. The best thing to do may be to hide. The best thing to do might be to welcome them. The best thing to do might be to ambush or "eliminate" the threat before it attacks. I'm NOT saying to be trigger happy. I AM saying that one can often distinguish a bunch of looters hell bent on evil from a bunch of people out for a Church picnic! Think about it. Everyone evaluates strangers all the time. You CAN'T always tell. Lots of times you can. All or nothing thinking does one a disservice.

"Sniping" or just plain 'ole accurate shooting is important for two reasons. Keep in mind that one is legally and morally authorized to shoot ONLY if one is in immediate real danger of suffering loss of life or grave bodily harm -- or someone else is in like danger. First, "misses can get you killed"...it gives the other person time to shoot back, knowledge of your presence, location and intentions, ect. Second "hits can save your life or the lives of others"...if the hit is delivered in the kill zone of a target AND takes effect before that target kills you. In short, "sniping" and accurate shot placement can enable you to get them before they get you. DISTANCE may enable you to get SEVERAL of them before ONE of them can zero in on your location...but by then you've already changed location and are now taking out SEVERAL MORE of them...and changing location again, ect.

By ADMITTING ONES LIMITS AS TO RANGE AND HIT PROBABILITY one can avoid losing ones life by relying on theoretical capabilities that will not eliminate the threat -- before the threat eliminates you! For instance, in one realizes they can't hit past 150 yards that's fine! Yea! Now you know! So forget long range shooting as a tactic. Rely instead on hiding, evasion, man traps -- whatever -- will work and is moral and appropriate for the situation.

***** THE MOST IMPORTANT CONCEPT IS THIS: YOUR MOST IMPORTANT AND LETHAL WEAPON -- YOUR MOST RELIABLE AND VALUABLE TOOL -- IS YOUR INTELLIGENCE!!! ***** It is what is most likely to save or cost you your life -- depending on how well developed it and your judgement is.

I, like Mr. Yourdon and everyone else, do not know what the state of civil order will be. Like prosperity, it will vary quite a bit from person to person and from place to place. I simply believe it is better to be have resolved the issues involving personal preparations; i.e. it's better to be prepared, flexible and ready to survive than to leave ones fate to the mercy and grace of such people as looters.

Think about this. Not to compare human life with animal life, but why is it that people don't feed all the stray dogs and cats in their neighborhoods? Because they keep coming back! And more keep showing up! And they WON'T GO AWAY AS LONG AS YOU FEED THEM!! And when you do the math, you realize a 10 year supply of food only feeds a 1000 people for about three and a half days -- until they put YOU in the stew pot (!) before going after the next "horder"...er...I mean "good samaritan" (at least untill their horde gets used up). So much for the "save the looters" crowd. I can't feed thousands with a few loaves and fishes -- can you? I wish I could "feed the world" and "save the world" -- but I can't. I don't think cold, hungry and desparate people are going to be on Miss Manners "Best Behaved List".

What about you? Start feeding stray dogs, cats and varmints this summer...see what happens...think of it as a learning experience...while you still have time to learn in comfort.

Remember...one shot...one kill...

Regards and best wishes,

Killer

You get the idea. But there is more to it than that. several of the skills that go into sniping will help you remain "one of the quick" instead of becomming "one of the dead". FOr instance, simply using a laser rangefinder, maping out ones "territory", knowing at what locations you can and can't reliably hit your target works wether we're talking about one's "retreat", campsite, or deer stand. Understanding exterior and terminal balistics is essential. One needs to not only "hit the target", but STOP A HOMICIDAL ATTACK before the attacker can "finish the job a second or two before expiring" -- and use a projectile that will not pose a risk to other people or property. For instance. I would not use an AR-15 in an urban setting with "standard ammo". Full metal case bullets pose too much of a ricochet hazard. They also pose too much risk of going through the attacker, through the wall, through the neighbor, through the neigbors wall, into the next neighbors house, ect. I believe it's only responsible to use fragmenting type projectiles in this situation -- glaser safety slugs, varmint bullets (like Hornady 34 grain V-MAX) or the like. These type bullets will take out a bad guy without posing so much of a risk to innocent people.

-- Killer (DominantSniper@Yahoo.com), July 09, 1999.

In my little part of the world I practice . The weapon of choice for me is an FAL. Twice a week, 40 rounds a session. Shot into a 1 inch square at 87 feet. Once a week 50 rounds from the 1911A1 into a 9 inch paper plate at 50 feet. Do I think I'll need these skills? Maybe, maybe not. But I'm not going to bet my life I won't. I might be wrong. And it does wonders for my concentration.

I also work in my garden. Not that I need to (I can get all the fresh vegies I want at the store). Do I think I need these skills.......... You get the point.

The mindset for surviving is hard. I just hope I can prevail. Am I going to harm anyone? I don't know. I do know my family comes first.

-- nine (nine_fingers@hotmail.com), July 09, 1999.

Dear BigDog,

After reading my reply to you, thought I should clarify something. My suggestion to feed strays was not directed to you specifically. The tone can be interpreted to mean I think you are in need of doing this. This is not the case. My suggestion to feed the strays is far anyone who is of the "I'll feed the world" or "save the looters" crowd.

I guess when I climb up on my soapbox I give 'em a lung full!

Best wishes,

Killer

-- Killer (DominantSniper@Yahoo.com), July 09, 1999.

Killer,

I didn't answer your post that drew such a wide array of responses. I did think you have very valid points, however.

In retrospect, think you should understand that this forum and a number of it's participants and lurkers are constantly being attacked as "extremist" in their positions and their views. You may well have received posts from a defensive few who are worried about being attacked later for the views they post today. In all honesty, I don't really know and this is my own personal speculation, some people may truly be worried that you are a troll here to use information against them later.

As for your points regarding evaluating options, etc. I think they are excellent and spot on target.

Actually, this was discussed at length and in detail a year ago. We bounced off the same kinds of thoughts and I had serious concerns about people who hole themselves up in homes ready to defend their property against a raving gang of armed thugs.

It isn't wise to expect to win a firefight in a home where your family is also hiding with you. Also, it's not a great idea to start shooting something like an AR-15 or other like weapon in a populated area, as you state. I have friends and neighbors all around me with small children. If things get bad we could be firing at the same group of thugs and end up killing eachother or our loved ones.

I've never been in the military or worked as a peace officer and I haven't studied tactics. This is why I appreciate your perspective. I think the best solution is to plan ahead and have contingencies. Be ready to police your own area, block off your streets, etc. Don't ever get into a fight unless you have an escape.

I think you raise excellent points and as someone who lives, works and plays in Los Angeles I know that a high-caliber weapon can go through a person, through a wall and straight into an innocent person. It doesn't get national news coverage but it does happen around here more than it should.

As for expecting a 5 but seeing the reaction of people as the real danger of Y2k I agree. People simply wont react well to the situation. Think of the majority of people as currently being pollys who don't want to accept the possibility of a computer problem. How do you think they'll react if that "non-existant" computer problem suddently impacts the comfort of their life? What happens if those computer problems actually start to effect the ability of those clueless people to even hold on to life? Things will go south, very quickly and very badly.

Keep posting.

Mike ===================================

-- Michael Taylor (mtdesign3@aol.com), July 09, 1999.

Killer, you sound disturbed and angry. Maybe a bit off kilter with hate toward peace loving hippie dippies. "Screw em! Give me my gun! I'll show 'em!" Whacked or jaded may be a better description of you. It is hard to see the forest for the trees, especially when each tree fights or is bitter back. I completely understand having challenges with people who don't want to lose any ground with their successes in life and job status. People involved in the hot stocks are very difficult to persuade.

I will have to admit your involvement with weapons and emotions is not a very good mix. It will be your downfall. I am a G.I. who has plenty in terms of weapons and emotional involvement with Y2k. I simply cannot bring the two together. Very volitile. I hope you and others in your boat may find some peace soon and can distance yourselves from the self defense posture. There is a reason and beauty in peace loving hippie dippies. They may challenge your intellect and sensibilities too, but for the most part, they are people too and probably alot less judgemental. Face the fact that 80-90% of american population is going to be caught with their pants down,no matter what their background is.

I suggest you try not to judge too much with certain people in mind. Even the republican type people you cling to will seem just as stupid and unprepared as the liberal types you were lashing out at.

Good luck.....and look out for the pot smokin and skoal dippin hippie dippies for me....hehehe.

-- hippiedippie (hippiedippie@home.laughin), July 10, 1999.

Dear "HippyDippy",

I guess it's true. Pot does negatively affect your brain. If you wave that smoke out of the way and read more carefully, you will see that "Screw em! Give me my gun! I'll show 'em!" is what I expect the type two pollys to say -- I'm not one to feel or say such things...sorry to disappoint you...why don't you just light up another one and enjoy the next few months? I'm sure that old VW van from the sixties is Y2K compliant!

To be fair, I will say my writing in this thread is right off the top of my head; first draft type stuff. If I spent time going over my prose before posting, I would edit so as to leave less room for misinterpretation. My flaw; my fault.

By the way, per the above, I'll give you a "clarification"...take a big toke now so you can comptemplate this with the next burst of chemically "enhanced" nurotic-transmitters...ready now...1...2...3!

I don't think "peace and love" is ninny puke; I don't think being a "hippy/dippy" is bad or contemptable...really...and I AM so Republican that I wouldn't cast a vote for a liberal democrat if they were running unopposed for dead dog detail...what I do believe is that it is "ninny puke" to believe that cold, hungry and desparate people are going to be on Miss Manners "All Time Best Behaved Hippy/Dippy Peace, Love and Nonviolent List" during this coming January's "National Woodstock". Decent, moral, "pray for peace and love but be prepared for war and strife" types like myself may make the list though. Type two pollys are the ones likely to behave in a "whacked out" manner. Disturbed? I'll bet the folks who have their "everybody will behave" bubble busting this Janurary will be. Those who have no such illusions are unlikely to be bothered by such a "reality shift".

Emotion and passion. The two are separate concepts. I do feel passionate about a lot. I'm an idealist -- but a realist (as much as I'm able to be). Feeling strength of conviction from having resolved issues as in "what situations will I use deadly force", resolution, and peace with ones decision frees one from the bondage of emotional turmoil. In the field, you size up the situation, make a decision, and ACT -- dispassionately -- knowing you just made the best decision you are capable of -- not one jostled about by emotions such as fear and anger like I expect the type two pollys to be goaded by after they tear off their "save the looters" bumper stickers.

Believe it or not,

Regards and best wishes to you, Hippy/Dippy!

Killer

-- Killer (DominantSniper@Yahoo.com), July 10, 1999.

there are quite a few "type two"get its as well.....some people can't bear to think about the almost infinatly creative way that man can be inhumane. I always wonder about people who are just too sensitive to discuss the holocost,acting as if we pretend it never happened,it'll never happen again.Lord Buddha teaches that it is not possible to remove suffering without acknoledging the existance of suffering and that suffering has causes.Unfortunatly,all too many people try to deal with suffering by pretending it does not exist.This type of ignorance tends to be very crushing when despelled.In a serious crises like y2k has the potential to be,that can wreak havok on one's positive mental attitude that is so crucial for survival.

-- zoobie (zoobiezoob@yahoo.com), July 10, 1999.

Killer, your writings remind me of Milne's. That is, you are a bit over the top, undoubtedly a bit too "high-proof" for the sub-4.0's, to say nothing of the pollyannas. However, and most importantly, you (like Paul Milne) are essentially on target on all your major points. Please keep posting. You may wish to tell people to read Tappan, Ayoob, and Sorokin, while you are at it.

P.S. Folks, I just rented and watched the movie "The Trigger Effect". Not perfect, but in many ways quite good. See it; this is a legitimate preparation expense, similiar to watching Miramax's movie "Kids" to find out what adolescents are like these days. They have degraded since the day they inspired the book "Lord of The Flies". Yours in preparation.

www.y2ksafeminnesota.com

-- MinnesotaSmith (y2ksafeminnesota@hotmail.com), July 10, 1999.

Missed your first thread so may not be able to comment pertinently to what you wrote at that time if it is related. However, tend to agree with your analysis about the Type#2 pollys. Also agree with zoobie, I think it was,(apology if I referenced the wrong source of the comment) above who remarked that there are some with similar views who are "GI"s , i.e., those who are preparing but who have declared in advance that they will feed anyone who comes knocking.( Anyone who cares to help me with a definition of "polly" if it seems I have misunderstood the term would be welcome by me to repost a definition.) I remember I made a comment on some thread long ago about having the basic attitude that I would not help those who had not prepared but had the option to change my decision and behavior accordingly if I chose to do so because the preparation would have given me some "slack" while the non-prepared had many fewer options. That comment received a similar response to the one you described in your initial post. That was actually the first inkling that I had of the "split" personality types (no offense intended) of those most likely average people that might become part of any Y2k or related economic/social stresses. Thanks for the viewpoint. Helps to provoke some more thought about the subject of human nature in general.

-- Barb (awaltrip@telepath.com), July 11, 1999.