Hello,

Question: At what ranges do you and yours REALISTICALLY EXPECT to be able to shoot and kill any attackers, looters or other targets?

In my prior postings, I've mentioned that:

FIRST: Consider the probable scenarios you're likely to face.

SECOND: Determine the optimal stragegies and tactics for dealing with the most probable scenarios you're likely to face.

THIRD: NOW make decisions on what cal., loads, guns, equip, ect.

FOUR: ACTUALLY PRACTICE per the above -- and make sure you're ACTUALLY ABLE TO CONSISTENTLY ACHIEVE ADEQUATE RESULTS IN THE FIELD. ASSUME NOTHING -- GO ON SOME SHAKE DOWN FIELD TRIPS PER YOUR PLANS!!

So, what are your plans, expectations, and equip choices as to cal., loads, range, equip, ect. This should facilitate helpfull advice and collaboration for those having mutual interest and plans.

Thank you for your "survey answers".

Lurking,

-- Killer (DominantSniper@yahoo.com), July 08, 1999

Answers

I don't expect any looters at all, let alone "engagements". If you think it is that serious relocate where there aren't enough people for it. It's a BIG country, 300 million people don't even begin to fill it.

Planning how to kill people when there is plenty of time to avoid the need to do so is sick.

-- Gus (y2kk@usa.net), July 08, 1999.

Gus, this thread is a bit on-the-edge, and I'll watch it, but the subject of security and defense (not offense) is legitimate. The first point is the most important (talked with Greybear about this on the phone today):

What are the scenarios under which you/I would actually use a weapon?

If none, lock the weapon up and use for hunting.

If yes, which scenarios and why/when/how?

Obviously, real life won't permit contemplation, but giving the most serious, sober thought to it ahead of time is the best way to lengthen the odds on a disaster.

As Greybear put it to me (and I have asked him to do an entire thread on this subject): if you're not prepared to use a gun (which is fine, btw), then plan how to hide ....

-- BigDog (BigDog@duffer.com), July 08, 1999.

I feel really comfortable at up to around 15 feet with my .40 cal. - honest estimate for heat of the moment type stuff; solid up to 100 yards with my grandpas old deer rifle but I can't imagine a need for that. If things are that bad then there will be a perimeter guard up and prepared to deal with that. With dogs to warn us and a secure spot to retreat to (sandbagged) and then to shoot from I guess that is about all I could reasonably prepare for. I have given it some thought - not enough yet - dislike the thought but would not hesitate to protect my family if pushed. Am stocking extra supplies and fostering preparedness and friendliness with solid neighbors and hope to pull together about 15-20 of us if need be. I don't plan on making myself crazy worrying about it - am in a rural (read... semi- redneck) area and plan on having several "good ole boys and girls" watching my back. I also am stocking up some medical supplies and knowledge so hopefully my community will value us alive...

Even though this thread subject may seem "edgey" I for one am grateful for it. Decker had a good point IMHO when he stated that most folks wouldn't stand a chance against heavily armed groups attacking us in a fixed location. This makes us think about things seriously and made me complete bugout bags for my family.

Hmmm... while typing this I remember that I want to get more fire extinguishers.... our home (typical) is very vulnerable to fire....

I also have thought about plywood for the windows if TSHTF - wondering if it should be mounted inside? Anyhow - sorry for the rambling....

-- Kristi (securx@succeed.net), July 09, 1999.

Killer and Kristi,

First, do you all realize that most 'gun fights' today take place at ranges of about three feet. Read the papers and reports at how many shots are fired and hits scored. The intensity of the moment is extreme. For example, soldiers (about 40) from the 2d Ranger Battalion (one of the best trained organizations in the U.S. Army) were involved in a gun fight with some drug dealers in Tacoma, WA several years ago (early 1990s). They fired 400 or 500 rounds at ranges of less than 50 feet and hit nothing. In Columbus, OH (1992 or 1993) a police officer and a crook exchanged 40 or so shoots each over the trunk of a car and scored zero hits.

Killer is correct that the only way to prepare for this is practice. The act of pointing and firing must be a primal instinct. If one attempts to think this through during the fight, they will die.

While no one wants to think about these scenarios, prudence requires it. Ask yourself (someone who has prepared) what you would do to feed or protect your family. After you have thought that through, ask yourself what you would be willing to do if you had made no preparations and watched as your family died from starvation and cold.

Kristi, mount the plywood inside. However, don't expect it to stop bullets.

-- Tom (nomail@nomail.com), July 09, 1999.

Tom,

Thanks for the plywood tip - I can think of pros and cons for both but was settling on the inside as well. Not to stop bullets (of course) but to deal with broken windows, etc.. I was taking into consideration the stress of a confrontation when I stated 15 ft instead of the longer range I am "ok" at when casually shooting. Just for the record, I don't "think" it will get bad enough to require perimeters, rifles, etc.... the 15 ft. range is something I already have been prepared to deal with for years just to protect me and mine from attackers.

-- Kristi (securx@succeed.net), July 09, 1999.

I am not a pacifist. We have 7 guns and plenty of ammunition. I stocked up on ammunition because I know I can have venison whenever I want it, and it's easier and cheaper to store ammunition than it is to store meat.

If we are threatened I won't hesitate to shoot whether it is animal, human, or wearing a uniform. But the key strategy is to avoid conflict. If you are in a situation where you feel violence is likely, change your situation. No amount of preparation, skill, or attitude makes a person bullet-proof.

If you live in a populated area or directly south of one and you believe next year is likely to get that ugly, then MOVE. Preparing to fight and kill just because it is more convenient (more fun too, Killer?) than moving is a very bad strategy regardless of how good your tactics are.

-- Gus (y2kk@usa.net), July 09, 1999.

F.Y.I.

Concurrent Killerthread on TBY2K Forum...

Survey of expected enemy engagement ranges

http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id= 0013n6

-- Diane J. Squire (sacredspaces@yahoo.com), July 09, 1999.

Killer

I've been thinking about your question a bit. What ranges do I expect to have to engage the enemy? It would almost certainly be close enough for me to identify them as threatening. Which means that I have to be able to see what's in their hands (fire bombs? Clubs?) and the expresion on their face and maybe even hear them yell "Get 'em!!". And that will be pretty close. This isn't war. This is (possibly) civil disorder. I have no reason to assume that people are hostile who are over a hundred yards away. Six hundred yards and I can barly see them. Any fighting would likly be in close. I admit that there might be exceptions. It's just hard to think of any unless a worst case scenario plays out.

Watch six and keep your...

-- eyes_open (best@wishes.net), July 09, 1999.

You also need to consider what cover there is around your principal residence. We have jungle to within 20 feet or so of the house...some places closer! What distance do you have clear around your abode?

-- Mad Monk (madmonk@hawaiian.net), July 09, 1999.

Killer,

I put some more thought into this question over the weekend and came to some different conclusions.

Engagement ranges are not necessarily for when some one comes toward you - they may also be considered as an attacker(s) moves away from you. In other words, "When do I stop shooting?"

The second part depends on how much ammunition you have. For example, with 5000 rounds you might consider engaging a target farther out. As your ammunition supply dimenishes, bullet conservation becomes an issue.

Distance estimation takes practice. Pick an object and estimate the distance to it, then verify the distance. You may be surprised at the difference in your estimate and the actual distance.

-- Tom (nomail@nomail.com), July 12, 1999.