Military Test Exercises For "Urban Warrior" & National Institute for Urban Search and Rescue Web-sitegreenspun.com : LUSENET : TimeBomb 2000 (Y2000) : One Thread |
Military Test Exercises For "Urban Warrior" & National Institute for Urban Search and Rescue Web-siteInteresting little site.
Someone else kindly pointed it out, and I admittedly sat on it for a few days trying to decide what to DO with it. Several of us behind-the-scenes did.
It greatly disturbs me, because it directly mentions Y2K in the military practice tests. On the other hand, we would WANT our military to practice for different Y2K scenarios.
What I find encouraging, in part, is that this site is publicly accessible, as though they werent trying to hide it. But then, they dont openly talk about it either.
What finally decided me to post is that we all need to be vigilant Y2K watchdogs. And by the same token, we also need to be responsible in how we handle disturbing knowledge.
Personally, after experiencing a totally positive, uplifting two-day Y2K gathering in Oakland, CA this past weekend, I KNOW the right road to counteract, what we think this kind of thing is, is to completely get behind the grassroots create community effort for Y2K. (Will report on it after unscrambling all my notes).
Diane
Note: ...That demonstration will be conducted within the US Navy and Marine Corps exercise "Urban Warrior" scheduled for March, 1999. ...
National Institute for Urban Search and Rescue (Non-Profit Group)
http://www.niusr.org/Look at ...
XII West Coast
Communications System Test
http://www.niusr.org/xii911/welcome.htmlThe following information is for the use of the working groups involved in the XII Communications Systems Test. UNAUTHORIZED for any other use.
WARNING Start all transmissions with "This is a test."
This test will be "free play". This is NOT a scripted test but is a communications test of the interlinking capability of the XII architecture. These tests at 3 sites are being evaluated by a Hot Wash team. These evaluations will be used in the follow-on test in 3 weeks, in preparation for a Joint Navy/Marine exercise in Urban Warrior.
The scenario to be used in this test is for a Y2K power grid outage in the Camp Pendleton/Oceanside/San Diego area. ...
And ...
Definately read the Final Operations Plan (West Coast Site):
http://www.niusr.org/xii911/119opsplan.htmlXII INTERLINKING SYSTEMS TEST SCENARIO
JAN 19-21,1999
CAMP PENDLETON, CA
Excerpts ...
... This third demonstration will exercise revised middleware and wrappers, as well as several forms of software designed to provide a "Common Operational Picture" for central emergency coordination. Using web- based software, the demonstration will exercise network connections between selected federal, state, and municipal players. Military participants include the US Marines, US Air Force (Force Protection) and , for the first time, Navy medical personnel from the Third Fleet. Additional state and municipal participants include the California State Emergency Operations Emergency Operations Center, the Mississippi State Emergency Operations Center, and the City of Boston. The demonstration will also involve participants from local jurisdictions, the Dept of Energy, the Dept of Transportation, Southern California Edison, Pacific Gas and Electric, and major industry suppliers such as ManTech and Qualcomm, as well as volunteer organizations.
An emergency scenario that includes a timed sequence of messages and communications between participants in a time-pressured, realistic Y2K emergency situation will drive the demonstration. Because connectivity between dissimilar systems, communication means, and software applications is the primary objective, all action is "free play" - there is no script. ...
... The XII Working Group will consolidate the evaluation reports and prepare a final report for submission the NIUSR and the NEMA. The final report is scheduled to be released in March 1, 1999. For this reason, it is imperative that all evaluation reports be available as early as possible. ...
See also ...
PLAN FOR "SURGE"
by Vice Admiral Jerry O. Tuttle, USN (Ret.), Member of the NIUSR Executive Board, and Extreme Information Infrastructure Oversight Panel. (XII)., President of MANTECH Systems Engineering Corp. Senior VP of MANTECH International Corporation
http://www.niusr.org/planforsurge.htmlSuccess favors the prepared! The national security structure must identify, create, organize and train a cadre of personnel to act as the "first responders"/"domestic defenders" to respond to the full spectra of transnational threats. All personnel must become familiar with the provisions of the Federal Response Plan (FRP). DOD should provide the leadership in planning and training for, and identify and commit uniquely owned or controlled resources to respond to these contingencies. The "first responders"/"domestic defenders" must be brought to different levels of alert status based upon available information of an impending attack and failing an alert, ready to deploy expeditiously in response to a transnational attack.
The organization and composition of these "first responders"/"domestic defenders" must be scalable and have an affinity for and be proficient in integrating the augmentation of personnel from disparate organizations and heritages, i.e. members of federal, state and local governments, disaster relief members, emergency management personnel (National Emergency Management Association (NEMA) Emergency Medical Service, Fire, Police, American Red Cross/Salvation Army National Institute for Urban Search and Rescue (NIUSR), volunteers, etc. DOD personnel, and in some incidents, international organizations, etc.
The utility of the global Internet should be viewed as a major asset over and above being an information artery. It should be monitored and those interested in transnational activities and information identified and exploited, including "chumming", and information pertaining to essential elements of information for transnational threats harvested. The Internet should be used for perception management, creating the illusions of grander and diversions of nefarious actors to pseudo-information domains. "World citizens" should be rewarded for information leading to transnational threat perpetrators. ...
And ...
The Vision 2000
http://www.niusr.org/vision.htmlThe United States is dedicated to the protection of the lives of its citizens and their property. In times of emergency, disaster and catastrophe, the comprehensive coordination and cooperation of government, business, industry, education, labor, emergency response services and the military is essential. The public/private partnership of the National Institute for Urban Search and Rescue is the vehicle to deliver this objective. ...
[Be sure to look closely at who is on the various boards]
Advisory Council Members
http://www.niusr.org/advisco2.htmlJoint Executive Board Members
http://www.niusr.org/exec.html
And ...
Protecting America's Critical Infrastructures
http://www.ciao.gov/63factsheet.htmlFinally, go back to the thread ...
San Francisco Says No To Marines' High-Tech Exercise
http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=000PuS
-- Diane J. Squire (sacredspaces@yahoo.com), February 09, 1999
Thank you for posting this, Diane.There are so many zowie tidbits in these links. Catnip for Hardliner, E. Coli, RC, Nikoli, Kevin, Chuck, a, WW, Blue, BigDog, Jack, Mac, PNG, Jim Lord, Elbow, Leo, INVAR, etc.
For those wanting to spike their troll annoyance, read:
"The utility of the global Internet should be viewed as a major asset over and above being an information artery. It should be monitored and those interested in transnational activities and information identified and exploited, including "chumming", and information pertaining to essential elements of information for transnational threats harvested. The Internet should be used for perception management, creating the illusions of grander and diversions of nefarious actors to pseudo-information domains. "World citizens" should be rewarded for information leading to transnational threat perpetrators. ... "
That is TOTALLY DISGUSTING!
the recent thread segueing into this oneAshton & Leska in Cascadia, too busy at the mo but will come back to this thread later
xxxxxxx xxxxxxx xxxxxxx xxxxxxx xxxxx
-- Leska (allaha@earthlink.net), February 09, 1999.
"Chumming"........... Something my DGI brother insists is a national Sailing passtime on Saturday and Sunday Morning. (Something about hospitality suites and banquets and blowing at about 20 or 30..... Can you say EARL... RALPH...)Chuck, whose brother swears he's going to be in the America's cup, just now he expects to judge.
-- Chuck, night driver (rienzoo@en.com), February 09, 1999.
See also FEMA ...... The purpose of this Emergency Support Function (ESF) is to describe the use of Federal Urban Search and Rescue (US&R) assets following an event requiring a Federal response.
http://www.fema.gov/r-n- r/esf9.htm[snip]
II. POLICIES ...
3. The Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA) will establish an affiliation of Federally-sponsored civilian US&R task forces. FEMA will solicit civilian task force participation, develop US&R doctrine, standardize and certify civilian task force personnel, equipment, and training. FEMA will also fund and reimburse the employment of civilian task forces upon implementation of US&R activities under the Plan. Upon activation of ESF #9, these civilian task forces become Federal US&R assets.
4. This ESF addresses only US&R, which is defined as the process of searching for, extricating and providing for the immediate medical treatment of victims trapped in collapsed structures. ...
[snip]
III. SITUATION ...
5.5. The National Guard will be employed on State active duty, and as such, will not be available for Federal US&R operations or support.
[snip]
V. CONCEPT OF OPERATIONS ...
A. General DOD, with support from FEMA, civilian US&R task forces, and other Federal agencies, will provide support to State and local US&R operations under three Execution Phases, in addition to Pre-Event Activities. ...
[snip]
2. Execution Phases
a. Notification Phase
Upon notification that a disaster has occurred which requires US&R activities, FEMA will alert the Director of Military Support (DOMS), the civilian US&R task forces, and the Department of Health and Human Services (U.S. Public Health Service). Each civilian task force will alert its members regarding activation. DOMS will designate a Supported Commander-In-Chief (CINC) and issue a warning order to all appropriate DOD components.[snip]
VI. RESPONSIBILITIES AND TASKS
B. Support Agencies ...
2. Department of Health and Human Services, U.S. Public Health Service All Phases: ...
b. Support civilian US&R Task Forces' Medical Teams to include: ...
(1) Arrange for Federalizing civilian medical team personnel that support US&R task forces and who are not full-time Federal employees being employed as a part of the Federal response system.
[snip]
C. Coordinating Instructions ...
3. Forces Command (FORSCOM), U.S. Pacific Command and U.S. Atlantic Command will provide representation to the FEMA Regional Interagency Steering Committees (RISC). Direct coordination is authorized.
[snip]
VII. ADMINISTRATION AND LOGISTICS
A. Concept of Support DOD with support from FEMA, the General Services Administration (GSA), and other supporting Federal agencies will provide necessary logistical and administrative support to US&R assets. B. Logistics The JTF will provide itself and civilian task forces all necessary logistical support using existing supply systems. The JTF will deploy equipped to conduct US&R. Logistical support includes food, water, shelter, and transportation. Requests for specialized equipment not available to the JTF will be routed through the DCO's staff to the appropriate ESF. Although civilian task forces are capable of sustaining operations for a period of 72 hours, the JTF will support them upon their link-up. While with the JTF, civilian task forces will receive replenishment to the extent feasible for resources expended during their initial deployment period. Support provided by local and State resources will be used if made available. Upon redeployment, the JTF may move to a FEMA Mobilization Center. Here, GSA will order any supplies needed by the civilian task forces to replenish their deployment stocks. C. Administration ...
[snip]
VIII. COMMAND AND CONTROL
The Supported CINC will use existing command, control, and communication systems for US&R operations. Military forces remain under the military chain of command. The FCO and other State and local officials may provide mission assignments in support of response operations but do not command military personnel. ...
[snip]
IX. REFERENCES
A. Department of Defense Directive 3025.1, Military Support to Civilian Authorities, 28 April 1992 (Draft).
B. FEMA National Urban Search and Rescue Response System Series:
1. Civilian Task Force Organization Manual, January 1991.
2. Operational System Description and Mission Operational Procedures.
3. FEMA Urban Search and Rescue Field Operations Guide.
If you like to find out more about FEMA see the thread...
LINKS: Know Your FEMA (Federal Emergency Management Agency)
http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id= 000NRVOr search the FEMA site at:
http://www.fema.gov/ search/srchjs.htm
-- Diane J. Squire (sacredspaces@yahoo.com), February 09, 1999.
Diane, thanks a lot, very interesting. I'm printing the links and will read them offline.You don't need to worry for having posted it here, if the links weren't passwords protected, then this is not classified and they are aware that this info will be accessed by anyone. I've posted links to the DoD's y2k action plan here last summer, and it it were not only extremely revealing info on where they stood, but also names and phone numbers of people in charge. I'm still here ;-)
-- Chris (catsy@pond.com), February 09, 1999.
"Chumming" is not what happens when good ol' boys get together, drinkin', braggin', arguin', givin' the barmaids fits."Chumming" is something fishermen do, esp. when trolling offshore. To attract the big fish, you cut up little fish and throw buckets--full of the chop over the stern. Big fish are always hungry and come in to feed. Once they're feeding you bait some hooks with chunks of those little fish and drop them in among the feeders. It usually works. That's chumming.
In many inland waters chumming is prohibited. Not so on the ocean.
-- Tom Carey (tomcarey@mindspring.com), February 09, 1999.
Consider this - if you found it, it was meant to be found.The only question would be - why?
-- Jelly Bean (jelly@bean.com), February 09, 1999.
(best Columbo imitation)Oh. And one other thing. You might want to surf this site (and any others of similar pedigree) with anonymizer.com, so ya don't leave a cyber trail behind you...
-- Jelly Bean (jelly@belly.com), February 09, 1999.
Actually Jelly Bean,Am "quite" sure they already know who I am, and what my quite digital Y2K thoughts are, so my best protective stance is just to continue being little 'ole me. (I agree with you Chris).
And I also think it was "meant" to be found as well. Remember, someone sent me the link. A "chum?" Don't know fer sure. None of us "knows."
Diane
-- Diane J. Squire (sacredspaces@yahoo.com), February 09, 1999.
Diane -Many, many thanks.
"The scenario to be used in this test is for a Y2K power grid outage in the Camp Pendleton/Oceanside/San Diego area. ..."
As in my neck of the woods. During the long commute on 1-5, I've noticed an fair number of Marine vehicles on the roads and in the sky the past few weeks. Those big ol' twin-prop transport 'copters (C-130s?) are hard to miss...
March, 1999, eh? Stay tuned.
-- Mac (sneak@lurk.com), February 09, 1999.
Be careful Diane...The gov'ment thinks we are pretty stupid to put two and two together. Even though the material you compiled is readily available on the web, tying it all together to form a picture might be stepping on toes that could put you in serious jeopardy Diane.
Be wise and alert....
-- INVAR (gundark@aol.com), February 09, 1999.
Yes, Invar, you are right, and we used to worry about that.But Diane has formed alliances with some powerful people who will go out of their way to safeguard her. And we're fortunate to have her addition links, tying two + two together, so we can all see the nerve-jarring emerging picture that belies the happy-face govt JQP spin.
Even tho we know what's coming, each new shard of evidence pierces our cobwebbed veil of denial-wish. 'Tis human nature to want to comfy cocoon, and these threads slice thru the silky prison of ignorance.
Thanks, Diane, for tossing these hot potatoes onto the Forum.
Surprised this thread has not brought more of a reaction. This is meaty news and evidence!xxxxxxx mmmmmmm xxxxxxx
-- Ashton & Leska in Cascadia (allaha@earthlink.net), February 09, 1999.
Yikes! More of a reaction Leska?? I've spent so much time reading it I haven't had time to react yet.
-- gilda jessie (jess@listbot.com), February 10, 1999.
The utility of the global Internet should be viewed as a major asset over and above being an information artery. It should be monitored and those interested in transnational activities and information identified and exploited, including "chumming", and information pertaining to essential elements of information for transnational threats harvested. The Internet should be used for perception management, creating the illusions of grander and diversions of nefarious actors to pseudo-information domains. "World citizens" should be rewarded for information leading to transnational threat perpetrators. ...They're making a list, checking it twice, gonna find out who's naughty or nice. Declare martial law and confiscate your rice. They know if you've been hoarding, they know you own a gun.So be good citizens now or the blood is gonna run. First we'll pay some snitches, then we'll throw some chum, when we've found those patriots the swat teams they will come. They're making a list, checking it twice, gonna find out who's naugthty or nice. Uncle Sam is coming...to town
-- Nikoli Krushev (doomsday@y2000.com), February 10, 1999.
LOL, Nikoli! Wax lyrical anytime, your jingle jangled my nervous funnybone :)
-- Leska (allaha@earthlink.net), February 10, 1999.
Leska, (who appears to be most disturbed by this information) and All Interested Other Readers,I have to tell you all straight out that this is the very best news I have found since "Getting It".
Like gilda jessie, I too have read it all a number of times and have considered just what my reaction should be and basically, you just read it.
I also must tell you straight out and up front that I am aware of the possibilities suggested by E. Coli that we all will be "tricked" in some manner and that this could be some extremely elaborate "trick". I simply cannot believe that to be the case. There are many reasons, most of which will be obvious to anyone who applies a few moments' objective thought to the proposition. Just for starters though, I will ask you: Can you conceive of all of the medical personnel in the 3rd Fleet agreeing to participate in a giant conspiracy to enslave the American People? To take away their guns? To practice for massive "search and seizure" raids? I, quite simply, cannot. Nor can I envision them "going along" if such were to be revealed at a later time.
There have been several remarks so far in this thread that I would like to address, either because I can contribute factual information and "educated" guesses, or because I simply want my views to be heard and considered. I've chosen to address them out of the order in which they were made, simply because I want you all to consider this one first: "The gov'ment thinks we are. . ."
Many of us can, and some of us have, made excellent cases to show how certain parts of the government view us, with "us" meaning variously the entire population, "GIs", "DGIs", this group of Yourdonites, etc. What I wish to point out and would like you all to keep in mind as you consider this new information is that we have also made it clear that almost none of us consider "the gov'ment" to be a well integrated and cooperative structure. Who on this forum has argued that the government is so closely knit that we should fear unified action from it? I submit that it is just as unreasonable to believe that the entire government "thinks of us" in any particular way. I believe that we will most likely come to conclusions that are closer to reality if we keep this in mind and consider very carefully who, or what part of the government is saying or thinking, what. The, "public/private partnership of the National Institute for Urban Search and Rescue," is certainly quasi-governmental at least, and I personally consider it a "government entity" altogether. I cannot accept that anything else could muster the participation that is evident in the many links that Diane has brought to us. Having said that, I must also say that I find nothing alarming in those links and much (almost all, to be honest) that is reassuring in the sense that whatever Y2K brings, we will not be also trying to overcome a roundup of scapegoats and a political "takeover". I see few politicians involved here (although they are only showing what they want to) and many military officers, businessmen (who I trust only to look out for corporate profits) and a lot of firefighters and emergency service people. Perhaps it is the presence of the firefighters that I find most reassuring. I generally find firefighters and paramedics (who are usually firefighters also if only technically) to be among the most selfless members of our society and the single group whose performance and values I am most willing to gamble my life on. In a word, trust. I trust NIUSR to be what they say that they are; nothing more, nothing less.
Next, I would like to explain why I do not find the paragraph that has upset Leska so much to be upsetting at all, but good news. It begins: "The utility of the global Internet should be viewed as a major asset over and above being an information artery." Does anyone remember this limerick or the original post by Arnie which inspired it?
Arnie's a guy with class,
his comments are never crass,
he was out in his yard,
when it hit him hard,
that the 'net could save our ass!
We didn't protest when Arnie said it, why is it alarming when someone unknown suggests that the 'net may have uses beyond peddling or "soapboxing"?
The paragraph continues: It should be monitored and those interested in transnational activities and information identified and exploited, including "chumming", and information pertaining to essential elements of information for transnational threats harvested." My dictionary says that transnational means Surpassing; transcending; beyond a nation. I take its meaning here to be with reference to those who have interests surpassing, transcending and/or beyond those of the United States of America. I hope that people and organizations loyal to our Constitution and the US of A are identifying and exploiting such people. As Tom noted, "chumming" is an ancient way to catch fish (Chuck's method works too, it's just a lot harder on the digestive system of the user). Do you really object to "chumming" (or any other method for that matter) to deal with such elements? I do not. Our Constitution does not and should not extend protection to its own enemies.
Continuing the paragraph, we find: "The Internet should be used for perception management, creating the illusions of grander (sic)(I Suspect this is a typo and should have been "grandeur") and diversions of nefarious actors to pseudo-information domains." 'Perception management' is a fifty dollar term that means, "make 'em see it your way." I submit that this can be "good" or "bad", depending on your viewpoint and the motives and intentions of the "perception managers". Here, I should think that it is meant to say that it is OK to mislead, "nefarious actors". I would also like to point out that it would be far easier to mislead someone not of our culture than someone who has grown up within it. This part of the paragraph seems to me to be directed entirely at extra-nationals who bear ill will and/or malice to the US of A. Again, I find it reassuring rather than alarming. I also note that the question of nationals with bad intentions is not addressed. Just so, it is the "alphabet" agencies who should be addressing it. (note also that the "alphabet" agencies, with the exception of FEMA, are not mentioned at all nor are they represented on the various boards)
The paragraph finishes with: "World citizens" should be rewarded for information leading to transnational threat perpetrators... " I have to confess that the term, "World citizens" throws me somewhat. I have no way of knowing what is meant by it. I can only guess. If we replace it with the simple word, "anyone", I agree with the sentence wholeheartedly. I can only guess that the writer of this paragraph meant something like, "World citizen; one who, regardless of nationality, views the use of terror and/or weapons of mass destruction as wrong inasmuch as such use harms and makes more dangerous the entire world." This sentence is the only discordant note that I find and I hope (and suspect) that it is simply an expression that the writer imagined to be clearer than I found it to be.
Leska said, "That is TOTALLY DISGUSTING!" I have to disagree and those are my reasons.
Mac said, "During the long commute on 1-5, I've noticed an fair number of Marine vehicles on the roads and in the sky the past few weeks. Those big ol' twin-prop transport 'copters (C-130s?) are hard to miss... " Mac, I'm assuming here that you're seeing helicopters with two large, horizontal rotors, one at each end of the fuselage. Those are Boeing CH46s. They may seem big to you, but the Corps classifies them as "medium" (the Sikorsky CH53 is a big helo). They are the sister of the Army's Chinook helos (CH47s) but they have "foldable" rotor systems so that they can be "packed" on the hanger deck of an aircraft carrier. A C-130 is a "stiff-winged" aircraft that has four turboprop engines. It is used for all manner of troop and cargo transport, and as an aerial refueling tanker. The C-130 that someone is most likely to remember is the Navy blue one (that says "Marines" on the side) that carries personnel and equipment around for the Blue Angels flight demonstration team. It is frequently shown landing in local TV news footage when the "Angels" come to town for a show.
The road traffic may be heavier than normal, for whatever reasons, but you should remember that Camp Pendleton is one of two major Marine Corps bases for ground forces on the west coast and MCAS Miramar (just north of San Diego)is a major Marine Corps air wing facility. I would expect traffic to be noticeable at all times between two such facilities, and if they are gearing up for something of the magnitude of a major Y2K effort, it would increase even more. Also, with regard to the air traffic, Camp Pendleton (as a ground forces base) has a somewhat limited air facility. Air assets used in support of major exercises are based elsewhere.
-- Hardliner (searcher@internet.com), February 10, 1999.
Leska: gilda has a point - I started late last night with going through this stuff (on and off) and still have a lot to read. The idea so far that I can't get out of my head is 'chumming'.Diane: Great work, and worth the wait. Thanks :)
-- Rob Michaels (sonofdust@net.com), February 10, 1999.
Hardliner: Ever see that Bugs Bunny cartoon where Yosemite Sam has this Elephant that aint too bright and Bugs sics a mouse on him? The Elephant freaks, grabs poor Yosemite up and proceeds to pound him to a pulp trying to swat the mouse. Hint, bugs is Bin Laden, Yosemite is the American people and constitution, We all know who the Elephant is, The Elephant is obsessed with finding out who that mouse is.
-- Nikoli Krushev (doomsday@y2000.com), February 10, 1999.
What bothers me so much is the enormous gap between what the public is being told and the rushed, all-dept-wide planning and exercising running through the military.I'm very glad the military is taking Y2K seriously and working on contingency plans. I'm baffled at how they will pull it all off because they're getting between an "F" and "D" grade for their own remediation. But I certainly hope they can pull it all together to protect our country and its citizens, without hazmat, nuclear, or brutal force as a side-effect.
What a difference from the ridicule, hooting, ostracizm, ostrich-psychizm, whacko-grouping the 'popular' media is pointing at the Y2K GI preparers. It is this vertigo see-sawing that has me off balance and noticing the military preps more and more contrasting to fluff-off news articles.
Public news feed = put-down
Military prep = ramp-upThe chumming paragraph alarmed me because it looked like an approved calculated disinformation distracting troll dump. Hardliner, as you know, I have zero military experience or knowledge, and come to this Forum to try to gain broader understanding. If I knew it all, I wouldn't need to be here! It sounds like a manipulative re-direction of our attention, efforts, and momentum to sensibly prepare for disruptions and helpfully share tips and advice on practical self-reliant matters.
Dishonesty, manipulation, propaganda, coersion, "re-directing, behavior modification," and bald cold lies are repulsive and potentially life-threatening.
We're coming from an earthquake-prep background and know absolutely nothing about military stuff. But it does interest us and blow us away because the military is part of govt and yet the public is not being given enough advance calm sensible notice and hand-holding on how to prepare. It's the weird disconnect that keeps wigging us out.
"Chumming" has a manipulative, exploitive sound to it, but we don't know what it means.
Do you know? What is the definition in this context?
Is it some sort of bogus friendly infiltration? Govt 'plants' pretending to be our chums and sidetracking, setting-up, twisting, betraying us?
The complete and total evil abuse of friendship and comradery we have developed here?
Why would somebody do that on this Forum, where everybody pretty much hangs all the laundry out to full view and hotly debates everything under the sun?
We don't quite understand what they could gain trolling the Forum, except exposing more idiocy and showing more ppl that they've got to be self-reliant and not depend on all the weirdos populating the planet.
For the truly new DWGIs the trolls probably dissuade preparations, and that is bad, really tragic. We thought ppl would know to think! But recently we're seeing more & more signs that ppl do NOT want to think. Even if they sorta hear about Y2K, even with a good initial Y2K education, they quickly angrily brush it aside and go back to their habitual mode of droid-thought. One step forward, two steps back. Hence the mil & govt plans we try to make sense out of to see evidence of *somebody* taking Y2K seriously.
It is a very surreal discombobulating feeling watching the world disintegrate behind the computer screens and the public facade, while the military buzzes about their beehive and plans to swarm.
We're busy advising some local officials & Fire Marshalls about how to reach out to the public and use Y2K as a way of highlighting potential man-made disasters, along with the floods, snow, ice, volcanic eruptions, and earthquakes, so people will at least store some water and canned soup. After all, we do live along subduction zone faults and active volcanic ranges!
But even at this local level, amongst the paramedics & firemen, our heroes also, there is a disconnect, a disinterest, a bureaucracy-as-usual, a fly-swat to sub-committees and banality. Activation? Yawn. Who cares. The very people who will be most impacted seem the most dulled to the Y2K realities.
If the chumming trolls are in any infinitesmal way responsible for this, they will have a heavy load of treacherous karma and blood on their akashic records. Even the Lord has given the universal truth and law that treachery is the most hideous and woeful sin of all.
I'm in a pt's home and unfortunately don't have access to a Bible or dictionary to quote this truth, but do feel a righteous disgust when smelling the putrid festering of deliberate traitor bait.
xxxxxxx xxxxxxx xxxxxxx xxxxxxx xxxxxxx xxxxxxx xxxxxxx xxxxxxx xxxxxxx xxxxxxx xxxxxxx xxxxxxx xxxxxxx xxxxxxx
-- Leska (allaha@earthlink.net), February 10, 1999.
Nikoli,No, I haven't seen that cartoon, but I am a serious fan of BB and YS!
I understand your point, but I think it's a bit too simplistic. In the cartoon, all four "players" represent a single entity with a single purpose.
In reality, none of the four analogous "players" are a single entity and the existence of many purposes and even cross-purposes within a "player" are apparent. Also, the "Elephant" is not uniformly dim.
That is not to say that I don't suspect that the "alphabet" agencies are playing a similar "chumming" game on the 'net or that there are not entities that will try to use Y2K for their own purposes. I do suspect such. I simply don't see NIUSR as any part of Bugs, only a part of the Elephant, and a reasonably bright part of him as well, certainly bright enough to be counted on to not go beserk with fear at the appearance of a "mouse".
I am also a fan of Transactional Analysis which teaches that correct behavior is the antithesis of all "games". More simply put, if the "chum" is not attractive to you, you won't take it, whether it has a hook within or not.
-- Hardliner (searcher@internet.com), February 10, 1999.
Bresnahan ) 1999 WorldNetDaily.com As you read this please note that the apparent target of this exercise was the local police station. Now what's up with THAT? Asin perhaps the local police have decided to uphold their sworn oaths to defend the constitution and the second amendment? NikoliKINGSVILLE, Texas -- Local residents are distraught over a near disaster during a secret Army training exercise. Local officials claim they were sworn to secrecy. Getting factual information about what happened is next to impossible.
Reports from residents told of low flying, unmarked helicopters and soldiers dropping down from ropes in the center of the town after dark Monday night. WorldNetDaily was told that the police station burned and a commercial building was severely damaged.
The assistant police chief confirmed what no one else would admit.
"The United States Army Special Operations Command was conducting a training exercise in our area," admitted Arthur Rogers when the police chief was unavailable for comment. He refused further details.
That was more than Mayor Phil Esquivel would disclose. He said he was sworn to secrecy for national security reasons. His answers were evasive and without detail.
When Esquivel was asked about damage he denied there was any. When he was told that damage was reported by a witness, he revised his comments.
"If there was any damage done, they were going to repair it, but I haven't gotten an assessment of the properties," the mayor stated. He then admitted there was a fire, but would not comment on the cause or the extent of damage.
Was there damage to a building?
"Possibly," said Esquivel. "An abandoned building that was going to be torn down anyway." It was learned from another witness that the damaged building was a commercial building that is not going to be torn down.
Witnesses reported that black helicopters with no identification markings flew into the city just after dark. They arrived in the center of the city, which had been evacuated by police. The secret training exercise lasted several hours.
When it was over an abandoned police station had been accidentally set on fire and the Exxon building was badly damaged when one or more helicopters landed on the roof. Windows of buildings were also broken.
"I live out in the country and they flew right over us and our house just trembled. That's how low they were going," said Thelma, a resident who would give only her first name.
Esquivel claims he is just being a good citizen by not giving the details. He confirmed that he had granted permission for the exercise, but he refused to say how long ago permission was granted or which branch of the military was involved.
"They asked me to keep it secret," repeated Esquivel several times. "I respect national security. It was very well controlled and no one was hurt.
"It didn't expend city taxpayers dollars. It did not put citizens of Kingsville in jeopardy. The police department warned all surrounding neighbors. We're supporting national security."
Many residents have been complaining extensively. In between life insurance sales appointments, the mayor has been fielding angry phone calls.
"I'm glad that this gets out. This is total B.S. If we don't stop it now it's going to get worse," John Rohmfeld, who lives there, told WorldNetDaily. "Apparently this was a secret operation.
"They meant to come in here and see what the hell they can get away with. I'm not going to let them get away with it," he stated.
The mayor tells all the concerned callers the same thing:
"It was a training exercise that would insure national security if we ever need it. It was asked not to disclose what armed services or what division of the armed services it was in, but it is supporting national security."
There are 25,000 residents of Kingsville, a town near Corpus Christi and home of the Kingsville Naval Station. Residents are used to seeing military people around town, but not repelling down from helicopters.
They want to know what happened in their town. Not knowing causes fear, and refusal to answer questions causes them to lose trust in their leaders.
The local barber shop is usually the center of gossip and discussion of current events. The day after the exercise there were only questions and doubt, which were the result of no official word on what happened.
"I don't like something like that. I don't like what was going on," said barber Joel Gant.
For now, the questions remain. The army public relations officer failed to return calls from WorldNetDaily, and no one in an official position was willing to explain what happened.
-- Nikoli Krushev (doomsday@y2000.com), February 10, 1999.
Leska: This may at first seem out of context, but any fisherman worth his 'salt' knows about chummung - so I offer a definition here for your consideration: When fishing from a boat and drifting, you put out a "chum slick" - bits and pieces of fish - to attract the fish you want to catch - and this worksvery well for many game fish - ever see the movie Jaws?
-- Rob Michaels (sonofdust@net.com), February 10, 1999.
You are really pushing the bounds of normal. When you write "... friendship and comradery we have developed here". How can you develop this with vapor ware? You have no idea who's here, good or bad. We all wear disguises in every day life. The net makes us put on even more. You are trying to find truth. Look to your hearts.Hardliner I happen to agree with your very well thought out analysis.
-- Your god (now i get it@nowhere.com), February 10, 1999.
This "secret exercise" garbage not only bothers me too, it angers me intensely.I see two crucial points. One, to release all details of such operations to the public would of necessity give them to potential "bad guys" and forewarning of the citizenry may invalidate the purpose of the exercise. Two, to leave the citizenry completely in the dark after the fact is not only wrong, it is counter productive.
Unfortunately, the "best and the brightest" in the military are seldom assigned to the public relations office.
-- Hardliner (searcher@internet.com), February 10, 1999.
Hardliner, lets disect this paragraph again using the code phrase "world citizens" in it's intended NWO context.The utility of the global Internet should be viewed as a major asset over and above being an information artery. It should be monitored and those interested in transnational activities and information identified and exploited, including "chumming", and information pertaining to essential elements of information for transnational threats harvested. The Internet should be used for perception management, creating the illusions of grander and diversions of nefarious actors to pseudo-information domains. "World citizens" should be rewarded for information leading to transnational threat perpetrators. ... "
Now looking at it in this context it becomes readily apparent that transnational Intest refers to the NWO movement and the subjects to be identified and exploited are the people who would resist the overthrow of the U.S. constitution.
-- Nikoli Krushev (doomsday@y2000.com), February 10, 1999.
'Your,' we feel friendships and comradery have been forged on this Forum. It started as vapor, but we have met several YourDoneEres in person as the result of shared values and common purposes. Friendship is one of the divine gifts that makes earth struggles worth it.Besides, our best friends reside with the angels, and is God Himself not a Spirit, yet our Best Friend?
It is not that I don't agree with Hardliner's analysis; it is just that I am groping for understanding in areas over my head, but which will directly affect me in the future if the military preps are in fact necessary. Remember, we're certified FEMA NET/CERT leaders! Potential activation indeed captures our interest. We signed on thinking it (hopefully) unlikely but possible in the event of a subduction zone earthquake, and out of a desire to be useful and helpful to our community.
Tom Carey & Rob, thank you. We also know nothing about fishing!
Please explain in simple terms who is baiting who with what and for what purpose, and what the baiters hope to accomplish. We're trying to understand what the chumming means to this Forum specifically, with concrete examples in layman terms.Sorry I'm so stupid! So many questions. I'm sitting here watching my patient struggle with each breath, going over half a minute with no breath, having multiple short previews of death, then catching up with several make-up breaths. In the struggle to leave the body, a peace while breathless; then the energy war as the body's instinct to cling to life reasserts itself. Snow gently wafting outside. I would do anything to be allowed to change places with my patient and ride the last breath up and out of this world. But since I'm stuck here, I feel it my duty to help others. If I can understand more of the issues surrounding Y2K, I can be more helpful. There are not enough people educated on this topic. We really think Y2K is important enough of a possible life-changing event to keep trying to understand.
xxxxxxx xxxxxxx xxxxxxx xxxxxxx xxxxxxx xxxxxxx xxxxxxx x
-- Leska (allaha@earthlink.net), February 10, 1999.
Nikoli,Point number one: Unless you authored the paragraph in question, your ideas of what "World citizen" or "transnational Interest" may specifically refer to are no more likely than anyone else's. Also, didn't you just assert that Bin-Laden was who was referred to? Did I miss something here or is Bin-Laden now a NWO figure instead of a "militant Islamic"?
Point number two: If, for sake of argument, we accept that such "transnational interests" mean the NWO crowd, you'd better read the paragraph again. It OKs identification and exploitation of, ". . .those interested in transnational activities" and "harvesting" information about "transnational threats".
-- Hardliner (searcher@internet.com), February 10, 1999.
Leska, my friend: First, I can think of many adjectives to be used in describing you but stupid is not one of them. FWIW, I also know very little about this whole thing and value Hardliner's analysis and perpective.As far as your last question, I have only a guess: The global internet is the ocean being fished, "transnational threats" are the fish wanted, "chumming" is but one technique to find out information about these threats, and the fisherman are those "harvesting" the threats. In addition, there are other additional uses of the ocean (internet) for "perception management," (telling people what to think, formulating mass opinion kinds of things?),and "creating the illusions of grander and diversions of nefarious actors to pseudo-information domains" (lies and distractions?). Like I said, only a guess.
-- Rob Michaels (sonofdust@net.com), February 10, 1999.
Hardliner, My earlier post using bugs bunny as an anology was an oversimplification of the threat, and intentionally so. It was merely meant to point out the ramifications possible from a Government overreaction to a percieved threat from terrorist. Osama Bin Laden was a generic term for terrorist both foreign and domestic. We have had lots of threads recently concerning the governments true intentions as reguards the militarization of our society and the construction of the socialist police state. My apologies if I don't rewrite all of these previous thoughts on the subject every time I make a post, but it would render timely discussion impossible to do so. Given the fact that President Clinton is both a compulsive liar and a defacto member of the Trilateral commission, the council on foreign relations, and the Bildenberg group, I must assume every motive he has is suspect and every word he utters is misdirection. His constant atatcks on the second amendment, the 300 plus executive orders he has issued bypassing congress, and his public statements that the constitution is an outdated document reveal very plainly what his idea of government entails. A facist dictatorship to be exact. The ongoing branding of militia groups and Christians as fanatical racist right wing terrorist clearly indicates his intended target with reguards to domestic terrorist and his definition of such.The entire section of the document from which the paragrph was excerpted is written in such doublespeak as to be indecipherable unless the recipient is already aware of the meaning of the prases Transnational Threats, and world citizens. World citizens gives us the key to determine what transnational threats means. Quite simply it means threats to the transnational movement. As a sidenote here I agree with Leska that we have forged friendships here and I enjoy the open discourse and varied opinions presented. My own views have modified quite a bit as a result of these open exchanges and I hope we can continue in constructive debate.
-- Nikoli Krushev (doomsday@y2000.com), February 10, 1999.
Leska,Regarding your request for an example of "chumming" on the 'net, let me offer the following:
I have read and heard in various media that the FBI has formed a specific unit to identify and "bring to justice" (whatever that may mean) those perverts who prey on children over the internet and translate those contacts into real-world crimes against children. FBI agents communicate on the 'net (mostly it seems in "chat rooms") and pose as young children. When they attract an entity who manipulates the contact into an offline and then a real-world situation for such purposes, they follow through and charge and arrest the perpetrator.
This illustrates why the practice itself is not so odious. The end does justify the means in some cases. If those doing the "chumming" are attempting to discover true terrorists, I submit that the means are justified. If, on the other hand, they are political operatives who are attempting to identify enemies of their own cause, I submit that the means are NOT justified. Both camps may be reasonably expected to use such methods however, and as I previously noted, correct behavior is the solution in all cases. "Chumming", whether the real kind or the 'net variety, results in a higher liklihood that you will "catch" your prey. If done properly, it is a "non-polluting" method. It is as effective, however, for those who fish for protected species as for those who do not.
-- Hardliner (searcher@internet.com), February 10, 1999.
Have a bad cold today so wont take long responding.Douglass Carmichael, fairly well known in Y2K circles, spoke at the Y2K Around The Bay gathering in Oakland this past weekend. It was good to meet him, and different.. Hes also an advisor to Koskinen and said he trades e-mails with him about five times a day. (Interesting, hummm?)
He said this next week Koskinen will be sending out letters to all the Mayors of the 87,000+ town and cities across America, urging them to create community and get ready for Y2K.
As an aside note, someone also mentioned that the Urban Warrior exercises were going to be coming to the Alameda portion of the Bay Area ... quite soon.
As to the NWO New World Order concerns, as in control, there is an equal and powerful opposite reaction we might label NWC New World Community, as in cooperation and coming together.
Where ever you focus your attention is what will manifest for you. Nikoli, I suggest you consider more inclusive thoughts just now. Perhaps, it is worth considering, that the combined military forces are learning to come together and work well for a combined perceived Y2K and terrorism threat to protect all of us, AND our Constitution. Just a thought.
Diane
(Thanks for the concern INVAR, but when one plays on the light side of the web and within the public domain, all is pretty much Y2K okay. Just following tried and true puzzle piece tactics used by most information researchers on both sides of the web. In this forum weve collectively pulled up a lot of great stuff that then rapidly makes it into the main internet arteries of public information flow. Interesting, yes? Perhaps it keeps our .gov and .mil types a little more honest among themselves).
-- Diane J. Squire (sacredspaces@yahoo.com), February 10, 1999.
Nikoli,I didn't mean to suggest that simplification, per se, was wrong (I do it as much as anyone else) but that it can, and in this case I think it did, obscure vital points from view. Here, those points as I saw them, were the fact that none of the "players" in real-life, were unified entities as they were in the cartoon.
I agree, re: Clinton, etc., BUT clearly he does not represent nor represent the thinking of a majority in Congress (51 Senators and how many Representatives?) nor did the majority of the American people vote for him. He is not the government, he just wants to be.
I have to say that your argument that "transnational threats" means threats to the NWO strikes me as identical to saying that a threat to rob a bank is a threat to bank robbers everywhere. Would you have us believe that the folks at NIUSR are NWO conspirators and that they are "speaking in code phrases"? Sure, it's "possible", but I don't believe it. Why leave it lying about on the 'net where "Nikoli" (or anyone else) can find it and proclaim its "true meaning"?
-- Hardliner (searcher@internet.com), February 10, 1999.
Hi Diane, Yes I could adopt a happy face, don't worry be happy outlook, but someone has to cover six in this discussion. If that is my role it is one I am happy to fulfill. Looking at this governments recent actions and the obvious relationship to the rise of Hitler to power is not in the least reassuring to me. You are an excellent researcher and your post are invaluable to us all, but with all due respect we all look at the information presented from different perspectives as well we should. It is apparent that my views are shared by a large segment of the participents on this forum, and more are moving to my position daily as the evidence accumulates. Many of the troll responses to my post have reached an almost hysterical note as they try to discredit what is plainly seen by an objective and aware observor. So by your leave I will continue to present my views and interpretations as does everyone else on this board.
-- Nikoli Krushev (doomsday@y2000.com), February 10, 1999.
This is all pretty interesting, but after looking around the site this all came from its pretty clear that group is formed to respond to Oklahoma City type situations (anti-terrorism). I think Hardliner put it in perspective. This excercise isn't abut jack-booted thugs imposing martial law in California when Y2K hits. They could easily have changed "Y2K" to "earthquake" and run the excercise. I am glad it's on their radar screens, but let's keep things in perspective here.And chumming should come as no surprise. But let's not make ourselves more important than we are. I doubt the feds giva a rats ass about us. I just hope someone reads through once in a while for take on what's going on outside DC.
And just to feed the conspiracy theory:
-- On the web, no one knows your a dog (howling@the.moon), February 10, 1999.
Hardliner, the NWO movement and the advance into a socialist police state involve a very large segment of our elected government, not just Clinton. Please go to www.dsausa.org/pc/pc.members.html for a list of current democratic socialist of America congressional members. Links from there will take you to their stated agenda. Now in looking at this list realize that only congressional members with a solid socialist inclined electorate would dare to publicly admit their sympathies to this organization. Any candidate running for office from a hotly contested or conservative district would be commiting political suicide to reveal his true loyalties. Extrapolating from that how many of our representatives and Senators are actually hiding their true loyalties? The fact that only one democrat has broken ranks to date in the Impeachment trial of Clinton could be construed as a major hint. The fact that the most easily proveable article of impeachment was voted down by a repuliccan controlled house gives another.I stand by my interpretation of the phrase "Transnational Threats" as taken from the doublespeak context of the overall message. Given the size and scope of the NWO movement, the financial rescources availble to them, and the lead time they have had to work with, it is inconcievable to think they would not have operatives pre-positoned in all critical agencies at high levels.
-- Nikoli Krushev (doomsday@y2000.com), February 10, 1999.
Rob and Hardliner, thank you very much for the examples which do give a little concrete toe-grip toward vague comprehension.
Chumming still sounds like a cruel subversion of genuine friendship, but of course we all want the terrorists caught and stopped. However, we don't want society to devolve into a buncha snitches, narks, and paranoid peepers finding "insurrectionists" at every Y2K concern.It's disconcerting that "terrorism" has become the govt-chic catch-all word overshadowing Y2K. From all I've read, it seems there are more global computer-embedded-system errors than foaming lunatic guerillas. But who knows? Aren't the noncompliant information networks the true transnational threats? Wouldn't our safety be secured more by chumming up to the code and doing line modification with the date fields? Can't they monitor, identify, and harvest the timebomb rollover ticktocks into fixed batches?
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-- Leska (allaha@earthlink.net), February 10, 1999.
Here is the list if anyone is interested. Bear in mind that hese are only the Admitted members of the movement.Representative (State-District) Address Phone, Fax Email Web Page Rep Earl Hilliard (AL-07) 1314 Longworth House Office Building, Washington, DC 20515 Phone: 202-225-2665, Fax: 202-226-0772 Rep Eni Faleomavaega (AS-AL) 2422 Rayburn House Office Building, Washington, DC 20515 Phone: 202-225-8577, Fax: 202-225-8757 Rep Ed Pastor (AZ-02) 2465 Rayburn House Office Building, Washington, DC 20515 Phone: 202-225-4065, Fax: 202-225-1655 edpastor@mail.house.gov http://aspin.asu.edu/~pctp/pastor/pastor.html Rep Lynn C Woolsey (CA-06) 439 Cannon House Office Building, Washington, DC 20515-0529 Phone: 202-225-5161, Fax: 202-225-5163 woolsey@mail.house.gov http://www.house.gov/woolsey/ Rep George Miller (CA-07) 2205 Rayburn House Office Building, Washington, DC 20515 Phone: 202-225-2095, Fax: 202-225-5609 gmiller@hr.house.gov http://www.house.gov/georgemiller/ Rep Nancy Pelosi (CA-08) 2457 Rayburn House Office Building, Washington, DC 20515 Phone: 202-225-4965, Fax: 202-225-8259 sfnancy@hr.house.gov http://www.house.gov/pelosi/ Rep Fortney "Pete" Stark (CA-13) 239 Cannon House Office Building, Washington, DC 20515 Phone: 202-225-5065, Fax: 202-226-3805 petemail@hr.house.gov Rep Henry A. Waxman (CA-29) 2204 Rayburn House Office Building, Washington, DC 20515 Phone: 202-225-3976, Fax: 202-225-4099 http://www.house.gov/waxman/ Rep Xavier Becerra (CA-30) 1119 Longworth House Office Building, Washington, DC 20515-0530 Phone: 202-225-6235, Fax: 202-225-2202 Rep Julian C. Dixon (CA-32) 2252 Rayburn House Office Building, Washington, DC 20515-0532 Phone: 202-225-7084, Fax: 202-225-4091 Rep Esteban Edward Torres (CA-34) 2269 Rayburn House Office Building, Washington, DC 20515-0534 Phone: 202-225-5256, Fax: 202-225-9711 arcoiris@hr.house.gov http://www.house.gov/torres/ Rep Maxine Waters (CA-35) 2344 Rayburn House Office Building, Washington, DC 20515 Phone: 202-225-2201, Fax: 202-225-7854 Rep George E. Brown (CA-42) 2300 Rayburn House Office Building, Washington, DC 20515 Phone: 202-225-6161, Fax: 202-225-8671 talk2geb@hr.house.gov http://www.house.gov/georgebrown/ Rep Bob Filner (CA-50) 330 Cannon House Office Building , Washington, DC 20515 Phone: 202-225-3461, Fax: 202-226-4169 Rep Diane DeGette (CO-01) 1404 Longworth House Office Building, Washington, DC 20515 Phone: 202-225-4431, Fax: 202-225-5657 Rep Eleanor Holmes Norton (DC-AL) 1424 Longworth House Office Building, Washington, DC 20515 Phone: 202-225-8050, Fax: 202-225- 3002 http://www.house.gov/norton/ Rep Corrine Brown (FL-03) 1610 Longworth House Office Building , Washington, DC 20515 Phone: 225-0123, Fax: 202-225-2256 Rep Carrie P. Meek (FL-17) 401 Cannon House Office Building, Washington, DC 20515-0917 Phone: 202-225-4506, Fax: 202-226-0777 http://www.house.gov/meek/ Rep Alcee L. Hastings (FL-23) 1039 Longworth House Office Building, Washington, DC 20515 Phone: 202-225-1313, Fax: 202-226-0690 hastings@hr.house.gov http://www.house.gov/alceehastings/ Rep Cynthia A. McKinney (GA-04) 124 Cannon House Office Building, Washington, DC 20515 Phone: 202-225-1605, Fax: 202-226-0691 http://www.house.gov/mckinney/ Rep John Lewis (GA-05) 229 Cannon House Office Building, Washington, DC 20515-1005 Phone: 202-225-3801, Fax: 202-225-0351 Rep Neil Abercrombie (HI-01) 1233 Longworth House Office Building, Washington, DC 20515 Phone: 202-225-2726, Fax: 202-225-4580 neil@abercrombie.house.gov http://www.house.gov/abercrombie/ Rep Patsy Mink (HI-02) 2135 Rayburn House Office Building, Washington, DC 20515-0917 Phone: 202-225-4906, Fax: 202-225-4987 Rep Jesse Jackson (IL-02) 313 Cannon House Office Building, Washington, DC 20515 Phone: 202-225-0773, Fax: 202-225-0899 Rep Luis Gutierrez (IL-04) 408 Cannon House Office Building, Washington, DC 20515 Phone: 202-225-8203, Fax: 202-225-7810 luisg@mail.house.gov Rep Danny Davis (IL-07) 1218 Longworth House Office Building, Washington, DC 20515 Phone: 202-225-5006, Fax: 202-225-5641 Rep Lane Evans (IL-17) 2335 Rayburn House Office Building, Washington, DC 20515 Phone: 202-225-5905, Fax: 202-225-5396 Rep Julia Carson (IN-10) 1541 Longworth House Office Building, Washington, DC 20515 Phone: 202-225-4011, Fax: 202-226-4093 jcarson@indy.net Rep John Olver (MA-01) 1027 Longworth House Office Building, Washington, DC 20515 Phone: 202-225-5335, Fax: 202-226-1224 olver@mail.house.gov Rep Jim McGovern (MA-03) 512 Cannon House Office Building, Washington, DC 20515 Phone: 202-225-5759, Fax: 202-225-6101 james.mcgovern@mail.house.gov Rep Barney Frank (MA-04) 2210 Rayburn House Office Building, Washington, DC 20515 Phone: 202-225-5931, Fax: 202-225-0182 http://www.house.gov/frank/ Rep John Tierney (MA-06) 120 Cannon House Office Building, Washington, DC 20515 Phone: 202-225-8020, Fax: 202-225-5915 Rep David Bonior (MI-10) 2207 Rayburn House Office Building , Washington, DC 20515 Phone: 202-225-2106, Fax: 202-226-1169 Rep Lynn N. Rivers (MI-13) 1724 Longworth House Office Building, Washington, DC 20515 Phone: 202-225-6261, Fax: 202-225-3404 lrivers@hr.house.gov http://www.house.gov/rivers/ Rep John Conyers (MI-14) 2426 Rayburn House Office Building, Washington, DC 20515 Phone: 202-225-5126, Fax: 202-225-0072 jconyers@hr.house.gov http://www.house.gov/conyers/ Rep Bennie G. Thompson (MS-02) 1408 Longworth House Office Building, Washington, DC 20515 Phone: 202-225-5876, Fax: 202-225-5898 ms2nd@hr.house.gov http://www.house.gov/thompson/ Rep Melvin L. Watt (NC-12) 1230 Longworth House Office Building, Washington, DC 20515 Phone: 202-225-1510, Fax: 202-225-1512 melmail@hr.house.gov http://www.house.gov/watt/ Rep Donald Payne (NJ-10) 2244 Rayburn House Office Building, Washington, DC 20515 Phone: 202-225-3436, Fax: 202-225-4160 Rep Jerrold Nadler (NY-08) 2448 Rayburn House Office Building, Washington, DC 20515 Phone: 202-225-5635, Fax: 202-225-6923 nadler@hr.house.gov http://www.house.gov/nadler/ Rep Major Owens (NY-11) 2305 Rayburn House Office Building, Washington, DC 20515 Phone: 202-225-6231, Fax: 202-226-0112 Rep Nydia M. Velazquez (NY-12) 1221 Longworth House Office Building, Washington, DC 20515 Phone: 202-225-2361, Fax: 202-226-0327 http://www.house.gov/velazquez/ Rep Charles Rangel (NY-15) 2354 Rayburn House Office Building , Washington, DC 20515 Phone: 202-225-4365, Fax: 202-225-0816 http://www.house.gov/serrano/ Rep Maurice Hinchey (NY-26) 2431 Rayburn House Office Building, Washington, DC 20515 Phone: 202-225-6335, Fax: 202-226-0774 hinchey@mail.house.gov Rep John LaFalce (NY-29) 2310 Rayburn House Office Building, Washington, DC 20515 Phone: 202-225-3231, Fax: 202-225-8693 Rep Marcy Kaptur (OH-09) 2311 Rayburn House Office Building , Washington, DC 20515 Phone: 202-225-4146, Fax: 202-225-7711 Rep Dennis Kucinich (OH-10) 1730 Longworth House Office Building , Washington, DC 20515 Phone: 202-225-5871, Fax: 202-225-5745 Rep Louis Stokes (OH-11) 2365 Rayburn House Office Building, Washington, DC 20515 Phone: 202-225-7032, Fax: 202-225-1339 Rep Sherrod Brown (OH-13) 328 Cannon House Office Building, Washington, DC 20515 Phone: 202-225-3401, Fax: 202-225-2266 sherrod@hr.house.gov http://www.house.gov/sherrodbrown/ Rep Elizabeth Furse (OR-01) 316 Cannon House Office Building, Washington, DC 20515 Phone: 202-225-0855, Fax: 202-225-9497 furseor1@hr.house.gov http://www.house.gov/furse/ Rep Peter A. DeFazio (OR-04) 2134 Rayburn House Office Building, Washington, DC 20515 Phone: 202-225-6416, Fax: 202-225-0373 pdefazio@hr.house.gov http://www.house.gov/defazio/index.htm Rep Chaka Fattah (PA-02) 1205 Longworth House Office Building, Washington, DC 20515 Phone: 202-225-4001, Fax: 202-225-3127 http://www.house.gov/fattah/ Rep William Coyne (PA-14) 2455 Rayburn House Office Building, Washington, DC 20515 Phone: 202-225-2301, Fax: 202-225-1844 Rep Carlos A. Romero-Barcelo (PR-AL) 2443 Rayburn House Office Building, Washington, DC 20515 Phone: 202-225-2615, Fax: 202-225- 2154 http://www.house.gov/romero-barcelo/ Rep Robert C. Scott (VA-03) 2464 Rayburn House Office Building, Washington, DC 20515 Phone: 202-225-8351, Fax: 202-225-8354 bvassar@mail.house.gov Rep Bernard Sanders (VT-AL) 2202 Rayburn House Office Building, Washington, DC 20515 Phone: 202-225-4115, Fax: 202-225-6790 bsanders@hr.house.gov, bsanders@igc.apc.org http://www.house.gov/bernie/ Rep James A McDermott (WA-07) 2349 Rayburn House Office Building, Washington, DC 20515 Phone: 202-225-3106, Fax: 202-225-2349
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This page: http://www.dsausa.org/pc/pc.members.html Last Update: January 15, 1998
-- Nikoli Krushev (doomsday@y2000.com), February 10, 1999.
Hardliner climbs out of the bed and shuffles into kitchen rubbing the sleep from his eyes. With a large muffled yawn he pours a cup of coffee and turns to his wife with a quizzical look on hi face. "Honey, is that rose I smell?"
-- Nikoli Krushev (doomsday@y2000.com), February 10, 1999.
Nik, you're a moron with moronic views.
-- Natasha (across the globe@newrussia.com), February 10, 1999.
Ouch, that really hurts Natasha. ROTFLMAO I can tell you are an intellectual giant in your own mind. Care to offer some evidence to refute my views?
-- Nikoli Krushev (doomsday@y2000.com), February 10, 1999.
Nikoli,I'll thank you not to attempt to put words into my mouth! You're having a hard enough time making any points at all, let alone trying to make them by introducing spurious information!
If you will read carefully, you will find that I did not say (or mean) that Clinton was the only part of the government we had to worry about. I think that the 49 Senators and the minority of Representatives that I referenced by inference, represented a large and significant segment of the government (nor am I now saying or meaning that that minority is all bad).
Now, when I went to the page that you referenced (www.dsausa.org/pc/pc.members.html) I found a listing of the Progressive Caucus of the US House of Representatives. None of them claimed to be members (openly or otherwise) of DSA. The DSA homepage represented that DSA was working with the members of the caucus listed at that page. There's quite a difference. Enough of a difference that I have no hesitation in believing that even those caucus members would not openly flaunt DSA membership during an election campaign. The voters are simply too conditioned against the word, "socialist" for them to survive such a label, let alone "prove" that they come from a district with a, "solid socialist inclined electorate." These congressmen and women did not (at least not at the page you sent me to) admit to anything. It was a list put together by DSA. Note, however, that I am not saying that you are wrong that they are members, only that your reference did not say so, nor did its parent page, nor did your argument regarding the makeup of these congressional districts hold water.
Having said that, I must tell you that my first thought upon reading the list of the caucus was, "What a nest of snakes!" My second thought was, "Is that all? Any is too many, but this is nowhere near what I expected after 'Nikoli' wrote, 'Given the size and scope of the NWO movement. . .'" Interestingly enough, those of the caucus that I recognized shared a common trait; I detested all of them before I knew that they were part of this caucus! They're a bunch of "bad actors" alright, but they don't really engender much fear for the Constitution on my part.
You are certainly entitled to your own interpretations and conceptions. I simply disagree with those that I have addressed. I do find your perspective valuable in that it informs me what at least one intelligent and articulate person is saying. I am aware that there are others here that agree fully with you, but I simply do not. I shall be vigilant however, and if I turn out to be wrong, you and I will most certainly be on the same side of the fence.
As for your little kitchen scenario, it's not amusing and it's not accurate either. I can smell the difference between types of propaganda and I recognize quite well the sensation of having smoke pounded into my anal pore. (that's a hint for you)
-- Hardliner (searcher@internet.com), February 10, 1999.
Leska,"Chumming" never involves genuine friendship. In exactly the same way that the fisherman has no genuine friendship for the fish, the 'net operative views his "mark" as only prey. I suppose that there is quite a bit of truth to the old adage about setting a thief to catch one.
Your point regarding the (non)prevalence of terrorism is well taken. If it were really all that easy, we'd have seen a lot more of it by now. Does anyone really doubt that there are millions of young, honest, devout and sincere Moslems who would willingly die to work a terrorist act on America, "The Great Satan"? Certain of their clergy have been exhorting them to this for years! Desire is only the first requirement for accomplishment. Reality demands that we acknowledge that the others (whatever they may be) have thus far limited such actions.
As for your questions and suggestions regarding the direction of energies toward Y2K, I would suggest that the people who are capable of doing as you suggest are mostly already doing so. Those who's talents consist only of the ability to "chum" are less than worthless in a Y2K remediation context.
-- Hardliner (searcher@internet.com), February 10, 1999.
Hardliner, your arguments are reasonble and well thought out, I have enjoyed the debate and will reflect on your comments. Sorry about the rose thing, just having a little fun. I have to get ready for work now, catch yall later.
-- Nikoli Krushev (doomsday@y2000.com), February 10, 1999.
Leska,You amaze me, because of all the people on the NG, you seem to be the most spiritually advanced, in outlook and in working with dying people. To me your interest in this kind of bureaucratic trivia is astounding! Of all people on this NG, I would have thought you were most likely to look at this kind of stuff (martial law, FEMA, Marines, Clinton, NWO, etc. etc.) and simply conclude, as penned by the master in Cymbeline :
Fear no more the heat o' the sun,
Nor the furious winter's rages;
Thou thy worldly task hast done,
Home art gone, and ta'en thy wages:
Golden lads and girls all must,
As chimney-sweepers, come to dust.
Fear no more the frown o' the great;
Thou art past the tyrant's stroke;
Care no more to clothe and eat;
To thee the reed is as the oak:
The sceptre, learning, physic, must
All follow this, and come to dust.
Fear no more the lightning flash,
Nor the all-dreaded thunder-stone;
Fear not slander, censure rash;
Thou hast finish'd joy and moan:
All lovers young, all lovers must
Consign to thee, and come to dust.
-- Runway Cat (Runway_Cat@hotmail.com), February 10, 1999.
Thanks, RC, love that poem!
My interest surprises me too. In normal times I wouldn't pay attention to any of it; in fact, that's why I'm so ignorant of many things. After years of ignoring this world, I turned to glance at it and found signs of crumbling all around. This Forum is a full swift learning curve.I guess the interest is because I've worked with computers just enough to enjoy them when they work, and get frustrated and experience wasted time when they don't. Y2K disruptions are plausible to me. Working with the fragile, I'm attuned to how much easier life has become with all the tools and conveniences so accessible. My patients are hooked up to all sorts of electronic props, even with hospice: oxygen concentrators, morphine pumps, lympho presses, Yankers suction, NG suction, air alternating pressure mattresses, etc. In the hospital there is no end to all the equipment using electricity to function.
I've been a secretary/admin asst/program manager etc and seen how skills, knowledge, and productivity zoomed in requirements, expectations, and performance thru the advent and implementation of computer systems. Read about history, other countries, life in villages, how much things have changed. Know that indeed the carrying capacity has been stretched by the rubberband of automation and networks.
I believe there might be severe infrastructure disruptions and that the boring alphabet bureaucracies will suddenly become material in-our-face realities to a startled populace. They may visibly impact and control our no-longer humdrum life. Reading this Forum helps me prepare mentally, physically, and emotionally.
On a soul level, perhaps it is the Self watching the ego grapple with a possible impending End Of Its World That It Knows, and encouraging the ego to let go of its attachments and entrenched cultural and environmental hypnosis. The OverSoul wants the ego to break binding ties and realize once and for all that true happiness, fulfillment, and satisfaction cannot and will not be found on the earth plane, but in the inner spheres of Bliss and on higher astral, causal, and Infinite expanding shores.
xxxxxxx xxxxxxx xxx
-- Leska (allaha@earthlink.net), February 10, 1999.
RC, fellow Cascadian, there is a major disaster, ecological, occurring off the Oregon Coast now, Coos Bay, involving 100s of those alphabet agencies, the military, and various emergency managements. Channel 54, Cable News NW, is covering it live, also local channels. Military gets to practice their detonation skills, fires, etc. Check it out. Will post more soon. Keeping windows closed throughout today & tomorrow, longer if warranted.xxxxxxx xxxxxxx xxxxx
-- Leska (allaha@earthlink.net), February 10, 1999.
What a mind-blowing thread you started there Diane. I'm still reading all this info and trying to digest and analyse it.Hardliner, you really shine on topics like this, much of it is way above my head and I feel even more confused than Leska. But what you've said so far makes more sense to me than anyone else's.
I understand the issue of "chumming", as I've taken part in doing it with indirectly colaborating with the FBI as a member of the Cyberangels, an organization that go after pedofiles on the net and educate "net citizens" on safety issues. As you said, chumming can go both ways, it's very powerful and effective and used for the wrong reasons is happening I'm sure, from terrorists as well as the "good guys".
Leska you said "It's disconcerting that "terrorism" has become the govt-chic catch-all word overshadowing Y2K. From all I've read, it seems there are more global computer-embedded-system errors than foaming lunatic guerillas. But who knows? Aren't the noncompliant information networks the true transnational threats? Wouldn't our safety be secured more by chumming up to the code and doing line modification with the date fields? Can't they monitor, identify, and harvest the timebomb rollover ticktocks into fixed batches?"
From what I understand in regards to Y2K, there is the potential of a window of time, perhaps starting around this summer, perhaps sooner, that cyberterrorists could take advantage of; i.e. the vulnerability of infrastructures while they are doing remediations etc. As things stand right now and from my own experience with my bank, Y2K remediations are already messing systems and the stability of business as usual. Prime time for terrorists to strike, don't you think so?
-- Chris (catsy@pond.com), February 10, 1999.
DESPERATION AT THE COASTNorthwest Headlines
February 10, 1999 - Preparations are being made to torch 400-thousand gallons of fuel aboard a tanker stuck in the surf off Coos Bay.Explosives experts have been flown to the deck of the 639-foot New Carissa to prepare the ship for a fire to burn off the fuel before it all leaks from cracks in the hull and fouls nearby beaches.
Plan is for 3:00 pm launch of grenades from shore - [running late]
DESPERATION AT THE COAST:
PLAN NOW IS TO IGNITE THE FUEL ON BEACHED FREIGHTER -
Greater Environmental Disaster LoomsIt's a desperation move: Faced with an approaching storm that threatened to break up a stuck cargo ship, authorities decided today to burn the ship to save pristine beaches from a spill of nearly 400,000 gallons of oil. The decision was made by a unified command of Coast Guard, state and federal authorites after it became clear that they could not remove the ship intact before the a series of storms hit this afternoon. ``We are significantly concerned the ship will not stay together,'' said Coast Guard Capt. Mike Hall. ``We're between a rock and a hard spot. If we don't do something now we would have to stand before you and tell you why we let 400,000 gallons of oil spill on our beaches.'' Navy explosives experts flew in today and were preparing the 639-foot New Carissa for burning.
Plans call for removing huge cargo hatches on the deck and using small shaped charges to crack open the fuel tanks, allowing the fuel to burn more freely. The fire will be ignited with 5-gallon bucks of gasoline and incendiary grenades that reach tempeatures of 1,800 degrees. ``We think the storm will help us as it feeds the oxygen,'' Hall said. The storms are expected to bring high winds and heavy rain that threaten to break up the ship and release the ship's entire load of 400,000 gallons of fuel oil. Already, three of the ship's five tanks, containing 140,000 gallons, have ruptured, streaking oil along six miles of beaches The decision was made only hours after a 200-foot tugboat pulled alongside the ship, which is mired in the sand just 150 yards offshore. Helicopters could be seen ferrying salvage crews off the doomed ship.
The fire could take a couple of days to consume the fuel, and afterward the charred wreckage will be cut up and hauled off by land. Hall said this kind of operation has been conducted a number of times in Alaska and around the world. The 639-foot New Carissa has been stuck in the sand and pounded by surf since running aground last Thursday, and widening cracks in its hull have unleashed a spill of fuel oil that has streaked pristine beaches for miles. Meanwhile, about 200 people have been mobilized to clean up the gooey residue of leaking bunker fuel that has washed ashore along six miles of coastline. Workers in yellow slickers and orange hardhats used rakes, shovels and absorbent material known as pompoms to gather up the oil and put it in clear plastic bags for disposal. Front loaders gathered up oily driftwood. Crews equipped to deal with oiled wildlife were standing by in case the slick moves into the nearby habitat of the Western snowy plover, a threatened shore bird.
Several birds have been found coated with fuel. The Coast Guard said three of the ship's five fuel tanks were leaking and one, containing heavy bunker oil, was ``seriously breached.'' Those three tanks hold 140,000 gallons of oil and diesel; all five tanks together hold nearly 400,000 gallons. By contrast, the Exxon Valdez spewed nearly 11 million gallons of oil into the Prince William Sound in 1989.
Meanwhile, a report issued Tuesday in Alaska said that only two of the nearly two dozen species of animals hurt by the Valdez spill are fully recovered. The Exxon Valdez Oil Spill Trustee Council, a state-federal panel, added river otters to its list of species co recovered. Bald eagles were declared recovered 2 1/2 years ago. The spill in Prince William Sound fouled 1,300 miles of pristine shore, killed hundreds of thousands of sea birds, about 250 bald eagles, 300 seals and other animals. It also disrupted salmon and herring fisheries for years. The trustees boosted the status of several species from ``not recovering'' to ``recovering.'' They include clams, Pacific herring, sea otters, black oyster catchers and marbled murrelets. Several species show little or no clear improvement since the spill, the council said. They include the common loon, cormorants, harbor seals, harlequin ducks, killer whales and pigeon guillemots.
A helicopter delivered heavy cables to the New Carissa as a crew of 13 inspected the hull for damage and prepared to tie onto the Salvage Chief. Plans had called for the Salvage Chief to drop three heavy anchors in the sea, then run some 2 1/2-inch wire ropes from its heavy-duty winches to the New Carissa. Pulling against the anchors, the tug crew would have first winched the cables up tight to stop the ship from rolling in the surf against the sandy bottom. But apparently this morning's decision is based on the conclusion that that operation would only further rip the ship apart and cause a greater environmental disaster.
``We're skating on the edge here, hoping, praying, working hard to avoid a disaster,'' said U.S. Rep. Peter DeFazio, D-Ore., following a helicopter tour of the affected coastline. Meanwhile, about 200 people have been mobilized to clean up the gooey residue of leaking bunker fuel that has washed ashore along six miles of beach. Workers in yellow slickers and orange hardhats used rakes, shovels and absorbent material known as pompoms to gather up the oil and put it in clear plastic bags for disposal. Front loaders gathered up oily driftwood. The thick oil penetrated less than an inch of the sand surface and pooled into depressions.
Hundreds of bags of oil-soaked sand had been collected by Tuesday afternoon, but long stretches of beach still remained to be cleaned. So far, a total of eight shorebirds have been spotted with oil on them, but none have been captured, said Loren Garner of the Oregon Department of Environmental Quality. None of the threatened snowy plovers that nest in the spill area have been seen. Crews equipped to deal with oiled wildlife were standing by in case the slick moves into the nearby habitat of the Western snowy plover, a threatened shore bird. The Coast Guard said three of the ship's five fuel tanks were leaking and one, containing heavy bunker oil, was ``seriously breached.'' Those three tanks hold 140,000 gallons of oil and diesel, all five tanks together hold nearly 400,000 gallons.
Other leaks were found in two empty cargo tanks toward the back of the vessel, sending water gushing in and causing structural problems. Gov. John Kitzhaber briefly considered declaring a state of emergency to mobilize the National Guard to aid in the salvage and cleanup. But his office said later Tuesday that such a step was not necessary because the Coast Guard can call in the National Guard on its own if it so chooses. The ship, owned by a Japanese company, registered in Panama and staffed with a Filipino crew of 23, grounded Thursday morning about 150 yards offshore as it waited out stormy weather to come into port to pick up a load of wood chips. The crew was airlifted off the next day and is likely to be flown home soon. Coast Guard Captain Mike Hall said routine drug and alcohol tests of the New Carissa's captain and crew came back negative.
EXPLOSIVES EXPERTS FROM WHIDBY ISLAND N.A.S.
The explosives experts setting fire to a grounded ship are members of a bomb squad from the Whidbey Island Naval Air Station. Spokesman Howard Thomas says a detachment from Explosive Ordinance Mobile Unit Number Eleven flew to Coos Bay today for the job. He says they are highly trained, including scuba and parachute work. Thomas says their most common job is defusing mines or other ordinance caught in fishing nets. The Coast Guard called in the Navy to torch 400-thousand gallons of fuel aboard the ``New Carissa'' to keep any more of it from leaking.GOVERNOR MAKES SAD TOUR OF THE MESS
Oregon governor John Kitzhaber sadly toured the polluted coastline ashore from the stricken ship. The acrid smell of fuel fouled the air, the sand was dispoiled with black bunker oil, and the surreal scene of the tanker filled the horizon. The governor was apparently the last official to give the OK before the attempt to ignite the ship with gasoline and a couple of dozen grenades. The governor said it is difficult to imagine that Oregon is suffering this fate.ANIMAL RESCUERS PREPARE FOR WORST ON OREGON COAST
Animal rescue workers are preparing for the worst on the Oregon coast. The leaking freighter has already spilled some oil, and a few birds have been brought to an animal center in North Bend. A team of experts in saving oil-soaked birds arrived yesterday from Berkeley, California. The beaches near the grounded New Carissa are some of the most biologically rich in Oregon. The federally protected snowy plover bird isn't in real danger because it lives mostly on dunes, but other seabirds could be in trouble. Lynda Shapiro -- director of the Oregon Institute of Marine Biology -- says a spill of 400-thousand gallons of diesel and oil could be a disaster.COAST DISASTER VOLUNTEERS
Here's a phone number to call to offer help: 541-756-2020.
At this time, the U. S. Coast Guard is not recruiting volunteeres for the oil spill part of the clean up. The material on the beaches is a hazardous material and to clean it up requires specialized training. But other volunteer activities are underway. Several years ago, Stop Oregon Litter and Vandalism trained a crew of statewide volunteers to be prepared to help whenever a disaster occurred in the future. But federal and state funding cutbacks stripped SOLV of the ability to marshall its volunteers.EXXON VALDEZ IMPACT STILL FELT
Conservation groups say the effects of the massive Exxon Valdez oil spill are still being felt. A panel overseeing restoration efforts says only two species, river otters and bald eagles, have fully recovered from the effects of eleven million gallons of crude oil being spilled in Prince William sound. The conservation groups say 20 other species, like herring, salmon and harbor seals, are still recovering. The spill on March 23rd, 1989 killed thousands of animals and blackened hundreds of miles of Alaskan shoreline.
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Obviously in this situation we're very glad to have the military helping, and glad they train in practice drills to help. We just want the govt to be up-front with the citizenship and advocatate Y2K preparation.Posted this because it's a possible preview of Y2K disasters.
Koskinen says the shipping industry is in dire straits.
Oil industry having problems too. This is both.
This ship "lost" its navigation.
Big mess, with entire infrastructure operating.
One newsperson did mention computer failure possibilities briefy, got e
-- Leska (allaha@earthlink.net), February 10, 1999.
Leska: Cybergnomes gotcha. Last sentence is? cr
-- Chuck, night driver (rienzoo@en.com), February 11, 1999.
Sorry, Chuck, fed 'em plenty of X's too ;^?
...briefly, got embarrassed snickers, changed semi-subject.The military's explosion-fires haven't worked, unfortunately; they're going to try again today. Mother Nature is breaking apart large ship while the bomb squad is finding it tougher.
In line with this thread, what has stood out in this whole disaster to me while watching Pacific NorthWest non-stop TV coverage is:
1) Many agencies working together
2) Military very secretive, gives surface details with a smile, but literally has kept townsfolk in the dark
3) People of Coos Bay have become angry and suspicious because they haven't been given enough information
4) Rumors rampant when ppl have to guess at tense situations where they feel they are being left out of the loopThere have been press conferences and town meetings, so think the tension and worry is pitched but the alphabets & military have been reaching out. Interesting to watch. Fortunately this patient has cable :)
Noticed it hasn't been carried on national news much.
xxxxxxx xxxxxxx xxxxxxx xxxxxxx xxxxxxx xxxxxxx xxxxxxx xxxxxxx x
-- Leska (allaha@earthlink.net), February 11, 1999.
Chris: you flamed me a few weeks back for suggesting that the internet is an intelligence gathering tool, and now we find that you collaborate with the FBI doing exactly that? "Go troll somewhere else..." were your words. And now you're spouting the government agitprop crap about 'cyberterrorism.' Who's a troll?
-- Spidey (in@jam.com), February 11, 1999.
Leska - National news is a lot like real estate: location, location, location. Lil' ol' Coos Bay in Oregon (or "Oh-ree-gone", to some of the ignorant national newsies) getting hit by an oil spill isn't big news. Now if it was Carmel or Del Mar or any number of other places where rich and powerful folks hang out, you'd have Tom Brokaw doing a standup on the beachfront...Sorry, some of my not-so-latent resentment of newscritters came boiling up just then...
-- Mac (sneak@lurk.com), February 11, 1999.
Mac, it'll be Oh-reef-gone soon if they can't work their ignition napalm. Cascadians unhappy, prize our pristine beaches & bays, and this comes right on the heels of the new report from Alaska that the Exxon Valdez inflicted permanent damage on their ecosystem :(There are environmental clean-up teams stationed all the way up thru Seattle to deal with the fuel. Hasn't gotten that far yet but the experts say, with the ship breaking up and being blasted by the Navy bomb squad several times, the likelihood of West Coast blackening is increasing. Storm coming in too :(
xxxxxxx xxxxxxx xxxxxxx xxxxxxx xxxxxxx xxxxxxx xxxx
-- Leska (allaha@earthlink.net), February 11, 1999.
Uh-oh, News at Noon, latest is, they're preparing clean-up teams all the way thru British Columbia. Is the entire North American continent West Coast enough real estate to warrant a mention on the national news? They're saying shifting winds could send it to California too. It's already slicking out to sea.xxxxxxx xxxxxxx xxxxx
-- Leska (allaha@earthlink.net), February 11, 1999.
Spidey, Chris reminds me of a little chihuahua who only barks from behind protective structures. Don't waste your time.
-- Couple times (been@there.com), February 11, 1999.
Leska -Just started a new thread re the Oregon disaster:
Come on over!
-- Mac (sneak@lurk.com), February 11, 1999.
Leska, I've been hearing of the disaster here on a PA news-radio station since it started. Heard today that the attempt at starting the fire failed and that they were hoping for better weather condition to try again.Spidey, the work I did was not direct collaboration, and it was for protecting children of predator pedophiles. It has absolutely nothing to do with "trolling" and disinformation, as many here do about Y2K when posting on this forum for the first time. If you felt flamed and I hurt your feelings, you probably deserved it from what you said (don't remember the thread). I've been reading this forum since July, posting since September, so I've developed quite an attitude with newcomers and trolls.
"Couple Times", I'll take that as a compliment. I don't post anonnymously, and I wouldn't be afraid to pee on your pitbull leg either.
-- Chris (catsy@pond.com), February 11, 1999.
Chris, ignition took, it's burning ferociously.
Now the health concern.
Several news commentators have stated that for two nights in a row, the military has set off the explosives just as night fell, when they *said* it would be in the afternoon. People are saying the military is secretive and didn't want Cascadians to see the enormous amount of smoke coming out of the fires.Americans have an inbreed caution re any murk of hiding the whole truth.
But everybody wants the oil to not foul the ocean and coast.
xxxxxxx xxxxxxx xxxxxxx xxxxxxx xxxx
-- Leska (allaha@earthlink.net), February 11, 1999.
Leska, it truly is a horrible disaster. What is the military to do, they're caught between a rock and a hard place. I understand the reaction of the people who complain of being left in the dark, but on the same token, I believe that the military broadcasting detailed info wouldn't be helping matters. Masses can't agree on anything, and clearly the need for speedy decisions and action is needed here. I think that what they've decided to do regarding info is first fix and do what they can and then deal with public PR messes later.
-- Chris (catsy@pond.com), February 12, 1999.
Chris I know you're talking about the oil spill but think about what you just said. Substitute the problem (exploding tanks) with the military or government or whatever "remediating their code"."I think that what they've decided to do regarding info is first fix and do what they can and then deal with public PR messes later." I think a lot of companies are doing just that.
Troll Maria
-- Maria (anon@ymous.com), February 12, 1999.
You're absolutely right Maria, and I am aware of this. But in the instance of this disaster, decisions/reactions have to be made in the same day, with Y2K, they had years. The PR aspect of it remain the same in relative time; it takes the same amount of time to spin or interact via media for this disaster as it does with Y2K.Wether we'll know for sure if this disaster was caused by a computer failure or not is up in the air, but the panic to fix this disaster is their first priority right now. That's all I'm saying.
-- Chris (catsy@pond.com), February 12, 1999.
Be sure to also read the thread leading into all this:
!!!Everything We've Uncovered Is True !! FEMA vs Homeland CommandAnd now, for some horrifying stuff that makes me ill at ease, being the "marshmellow" wimp dedicated to making life beautiful and heavenly for dying ppl:
Fear And Loathing in Kingsville, TexasMONDAY, FEBRUARY 15, 1999
ARMED AND DANGEROUS
Fear And Loathing in Kingsville, Texas
Local residents fuming over Army live-fire exerciseBy David M. Bresnahan, ) 1999 WorldNetDaily.com
A group of Kingsville, Texas, citizens now plan to pursue action against their city for permitting the Army to use live ammunition during an exercise in their town known as Operation Last Dance. Angry citizens are expected to crowd the next city council and county commission meetings, both scheduled to be held Feb. 22. At least one citizen is looking into legal action. Back door to building blasted open.
Some residents said they were terrified when helicopters swooped into town from the Army Special Operations Command, Ft. Bragg, North Carolina, last Monday night. One helicopter hit a telephone pole, which started a fire and horrified residents who saw it happen.
At least eight helicopters are reported to have participated in an assault exercise using live ammunition and explosives very close to innocent bystanders who were not warned of the planned action.
Fire officials confirmed that they responded to the resulting fire, but had no warning that the exercise would take place. They were also summoned to put out a building fire caused by explosions set off during the exercise.
It has since been learned from military sources that the actual group involved in the exercise is known as the Knight Stalkers, an elite group from the Delta Force. They are trained to conduct assassination missions, according to several retired military officers who had served in various special operations assignments.
The Army Special Operations Command at Ft. Bragg, North Carolina, has acknowledged that the event was the kick-off of a series of similar training operations going on in Kingsville, Corpus Christi and Fort Sam Houston, but would not confirm that the group was the Knight Stalkers. Additional training events have been confirmed in the area.
Austin radio station talk show host Alex Jones went to Kingsville to investigate for WorldNetDaily. He arrived just in time to find work crews covering up the evidence of the extensive damage caused by the exercise.
A former police station and an old Exxon office building were nearly destroyed. Evidence of bullet holes in walls, explosions from grenades, and other explosive charges could be seen. Fire damage was also extensive in at least one of the buildings.
Lt. Judy Hayes, 3rd in command at Kingsville Police Department"There was a joint training session between the United States Army and the Kingsville Police Department," Lt. Judy Hayes, third in command at the Kingsville police told Jones.
"The Army was doing some sort of extraction type thing. They used eight helicopters. Our training involved sealing off the area, as if we were involved in taking care of a hazardous materials type incident. We were rerouting traffic and making sure there was no civilian foot traffic in the area. So we got quite a bit of training in that area.
"The only participation on the part of the Kingsville Police Department was in a hazardous materials training session. We did not participate in any way with what the Army was doing," insisted Hayes. Throughout the interview with Jones, two men in black SWAT team uniforms stood behind her. Jones believes it was an attempt to intimidate him.
The Kingsville Fire Department was not given notice of the exercise, and it was not invited to participate in the alleged hazardous materials training, even though it would be called in if there were a real even of that kind.
The fire department spokesman claimed officials were not aware of the event until they were called to respond to the telephone pole fire and the fire at the former police station.
An elderly lady who lives in an apartment across from where the exercise took place told Jones that she was frightened to death and crying. She was sitting on a bench in full view of the area where the helicopters first appeared and where all the shooting took place.
"I sit on the bench, and then I get scared because the noise. It was so terrible and too loud, you know. They were throwing some bombs. I think they were using some rifles too, and the other kind of rifles that go pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, you know," said the elderly woman, identified only as Gracie. She described seeing many black helicopters with men in black coming out of them. She heard explosions and apparently machine gun fire. She said it lasted at least two hours.
"I was so scared I went back to my apartment, but I could still hear the noise," Gracie said. She said she was so scared that she cried and her heart hurt. She said no one warned her or came to tell her what was going on.
Business owners are also complaining. The police claim they warned businesses in the area of the exercise in advance. If they did, WorldNetDaily was unable to find any that would confirm that. The businesses in the area that were open at the time of the exercise had no idea what was going on. A former police chief and former city council member have expressed dismay over the incident and are contemplating filing an official complaint.
Police Chief Philipe Garza was appointed to his position even though he did not have the required training. He is currently under investigation for police brutality and abuse.Police Chief Philipe Garza has been the object of a number of investigations lately. Currently the U.S. Department of Justice has been asked to investigate accusations of police abuse. Several residents, who did not wish to be identified, claim that Garza is very abusive with citizens and rules by intimidation. Garza claims there are very few complaints from residents of Kingsville. He says the only complaints are coming from people in other parts of the country.
The head of emergency management for Kingsville is the Federal Emergency Management Agency coordinator Tomas Sanchez. He is a highly decorated Navy veteran, wounded in Vietnam and retired after 30 years of service. He now continues to serve as the head of the military police unit of the Texas State Guard, which is under the National Guard.
Sanchez has had extensive experience and training in special operations, and he expressed deep concern to WorldNetDaily about events in Kingsville. He was asked what was the purpose of the exercise. He said the plan involved a scenario that required military action because local police could not deal with civilians effectively.
"Martial law has been declared through presidential powers and war powers act, and some citizens have refused to give up their weapons. They have taken over two of the buildings in Kingsville. The police cannot handle it. So you call these guys in. They show up and they zap everybody, take all the weapons, and let the local P.D. clean it up," described Sanchez of the scenario the Knight Stalkers were likely given.
Sanchez says the military exercise in his town was illegal under the Posse Comitatus Act, but he says that Presidential Decision Directive 25 has given an exception to Special Operations. He believes the men involved have total immunity from any legal action against them. Although PDD 25 is top secret, Sanchez has seen it because of his position with FEMA, and he has a security clearance. He would not provide a copy to WorldNetDaily.
"Some folks are talking about seeking some legal counsel. Some are asking for the crisis incident stress management counseling. They would like to see some of that," said Sanchez.
Shell casing used by Knight Stalkers to blast their way through doors."When the helos are right above the rooftop, and the windows are vibrating, and people are ducking under the bed, and so on and so forth, they need that," he explained.
Sanchez was able to locate some of the helicopters and some of the soldiers used in Operation Last Dance. He decided to take a drive to the Corpus Christi Naval Air Station and the Corpus Christi Army Depot where all the helicopters are given maintenance.
"Parked between hanger 45 and 46 on the tarmac were four Blackhawk, no marking, helicopters. They've got it all blocked off with a chain link fence that says ID card required to gain access. No security guard. One can drive up close enough to look through the fence and see the Blackhawk helocopters. Only four of them were parked there," said Sanchez of his findings.
He said the men involved are most likely staying at the bachelor- enlisted quarters, which is a three-story barracks building. Some of the men have been observed eating in a fast food restaurant right near the bachelor-enlisted quarters.
"You can always tell these guys because even when they put on civilian clothes they still look like Army Rangers. White sidewalls we call it. Short crew cut," Sanchez explained.
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-- Leska (allaha@earthlink.net), February 15, 1999.
Is the Army Invading Texas?ARMED AND DANGEROUS
Is the Army Invading Texas?
Officials, residents concerned about rash of exercisesBy David M. Bresnahan, ) 1999 WorldNetDaily.com
One Texas police chief has complained of attempts to bribe him into letting the Army Delta Force into his town for training exercises. Other Texas towns have seen recent exercises as part of Operation Last Dance, and complaints from citizens are numerous.
"End runs were done around various community leaders," San Antonio Chief of Police Al Philipus told Austin radio talk show host Alex Jones, on assignment from WorldNetDaily. He was asked to host the exercises last May, but refused.
"Once I said no, they went to various individuals in the community to bring pressure to bear to get me to change my mind," explained Philipus. "For example, there was a community leader who I have a great deal of respect for, and we have a very good relationship. I get a call from him and he says, 'Chief, there's some people in here. They're in town and it's part of their role here, they need to meet with the mayor and the police chief.'
"Of course, this gentleman, who I've worked very closely with on a number of projects, I told him to have them give me a call. Now I'd already said no. Well now I find out they're the same group. So they identified somebody that I know that's very high in the community to make an approach to me and get me to change my mind. Then when we said no, some elected officials were contacted to bring pressure to bear," said Philipus.
"Then offers were made to give money, cash money to elected officials' charities if they could get us to change our minds. As one of my deputy chiefs said, in some circles, that's called bribery."
Operation Last Dance began Feb. 8 with an explosive exercise in Kingsville, Texas, near Corpus Christi. Community leaders have come under heavy criticism from residents who were badly frightened when Night Stalkers fired live rounds and set off explosions very close to innocent civilians.
Army spokesmen have confirmed plans to continue with additional exercises in the Corpus Christi area until Feb. 20. Several reports of military activity throughout the area have been received by WorldNetDaily.
The town of San Augustine had an unconfirmed military exercise within the past few days. Residents report they were frightened by black helicopters at night. Further details were unavailable, and local officials could not be reached last night.
A confirmed exercise took place on Friday in the little town of Port Aransas. The mayor there claims he knew nothing of the exercise until it happened. Port Aransas Mayor Glenn Martin said he did not know what to say to the many angry residents who were calling to complain. Port Aransas is just outside Corpus Christi, and has a population of just over 2,000.
The soldiers involved come from Ft. Bragg Army Special Operations. Military sources told WorldNetDaily the specific group is called the Night Stalkers, an elite group from the Delta Force. They are a secret group trained to get into an area quickly, kill, and get out.
"It happened right at the ferry landing," explained Tomas Sanchez, the emergency management coordinator working for the Federal Emergency Management Agency in Kingsville. He said the ferry is a very busy area that operates 24 hours a day.
The local constable was upset that he had not been notified in advance of the exercise at the Port Aransas ferry. He had been on duty and observed the very brief exercise.
Black helicopters flew in low over the city and hovered over some large fuel tanks in the beach area. The tanks are enclosed in a fenced area. Soldiers dressed in black rappelled down ropes to the tanks, and within a few minutes took off again, and it was all over.
No one seems to know what it was all about.
"I just wonder how the mayor's going to handle this thing. They really caught him with his pants down. The police department was not really involved in this. None of the law enforcement was," explained Sanchez.
Sanchez lives in Kingsville, where the first and most dramatic exercise took place. As a highly decorated Navy veteran, wounded in Vietnam, Sanchez has many concerns about what is going on. He was personally involved in many special operations and top secret missions.
Sanchez is now a lieutenant colonel in the Texas State Guard military police. He is extremely concerned about Operation Last Dance because live rounds have been fired and explosives used in civilian areas.
"They pulled the same stunt in a little county south of us in a little town called Sarita, population 500," Sanchez disclosed. Black helicopters were reported hovering over a private residence with search lights. That incident happened prior to the start of Last Dance.
Another suburb of Corpus Christi was "attacked" by Army Special Forces. Residents in Calallen were badly frightened when Last Dance came to their back yard. This attack took place at an abandoned water plant on the Nueces River along route I-37. Houses and an apartment complex are located within a few hundred yards, according to residents.
More details are needed, but initial reports from witnesses claim the military used the water plant for practice bombing runs. Police had surrounded the area to keep bystanders away, and printed notices were placed on resident's doors about 30 minutes before it began. The notices did not disclose the nature of the exercise.
Residents who called 911 and asked for help were told they could not be serviced because they lived outside the response area.
Last Dance is not over, according to Carol Darby from Fort Bragg public affairs. She says to expect more activity in the same area until Feb. 20. She would not give details, and said the operation is secret. She also denied a request for a WorldNetDaily reporter to observe, saying it was not safe.
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-- Leska (allaha@earthlink.net), February 15, 1999.
Mi litary Training Disrupts Port A ResidentsSaturday, Feb. 13, 1999
Local officials say they were unprepared for questions, complaints from residents about exercises
From staff reports, Doreen C. Bowens
The Department of Defense conducted training Friday in Port Aransas similar to exercises earlier this week in Kingsville, Channel 6 News reported.
Port Aransas Mayor Glenn Martin said he didn't know how to answer questions from residents about the training because he hadn't been notified.
"I didn't know what was going on," Martin said. "They were calling me up asking me about a bunch of black helicopters."
Carol Darby, a spokeswoman for Army Special Operations Command in Fort Bragg, said this week that the public never is notified before such exercises because it poses an security risk and also a danger to residents, who tend to gather to watch.
She has said that there may be other exercises in Kingsville, Corpus Christi and around Fort Sam Houston before next Saturday but didn't elaborate.
Darby has said that as the world grows more urban, it is important for special forces to practice their skills in a variety of urban environments.
Monday's training in Kingsville led to a fire in the abandoned former police station. Army officials have said they will pay for the damage.
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-- Leska (allaha@earthlink.net), February 15, 1999.
Operation Last Dance?Sounds Infomagic. Any military folks here who know how these things are code-named?
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-- Leska (allaha@earthlink.net), February 15, 1999.
Leska, the WorldnetDaily article is uh...rather sensational, and scary, especially the bolded paragraph quote. We need other sources to back this up. I'm going to do a search now.
-- Chris (catsy@pond.com), February 15, 1999.
Leska,This section bears repeating ...
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/ bluesky_exnews/19990215_xex_fear_and_loa.shtml... The head of emergency management for Kingsville is the Federal Emergency Management Agency coordinator Tomas Sanchez. He is a highly decorated Navy veteran, wounded in Vietnam and retired after 30 years of service. He now continues to serve as the head of the military police unit of the Texas State Guard, which is under the National Guard.
Sanchez has had extensive experience and training in special operations, and he expressed deep concern to WorldNetDaily about events in Kingsville. He was asked what was the purpose of the exercise. He said the plan involved a scenario that required military action because local police could not deal with civilians effectively.
"Martial law has been declared through presidential powers and war powers act, and some citizens have refused to give up their weapons. They have taken over two of the buildings in Kingsville. The police cannot handle it. So you call these guys in. They show up and they zap everybody, take all the weapons, and let the local P.D. clean it up," described Sanchez of the scenario the Knight Stalkers were likely given.
Sanchez says the military exercise in his town was illegal under the Posse Comitatus Act, but he says that Presidential Decision Directive 25 has given an exception to Special Operations. He believes the men involved have total immunity from any legal action against them. Although PDD 25 is top secret, Sanchez has seen it because of his position with FEMA, and he has a security clearance. ...
And again ...
Presidential Decision Directive 25 has given an exception to Special Operations.
PDD 25 is top secret, Sanchez has seen it because of his position with FEMA , and he has a security clearance.
Remember the thread about the CIOs needing security clearance?
Also note a comment from your Oregon Oil spill article ... the Coast Guard can call in the National Guard on its own if it so chooses. Hummmn?
At any rate, make that the Last Waltz, for some, instead of the Operation Last Dance.
Hardliner, are there any best and brightest still IN the Military, et. al.? I sure hope so.
Just remember Leska, rise above the FEAR energy that all this stuff is designed to foster. You know how and you know why its REALLY important. Okay?
Diane, curiouser and curiouser
-- Diane J. Squire (sacredspaces@yahoo.com), February 15, 1999.
Yes, Chris, I thought it was gripping reading too. Nobody answered, so figured it's hohum. Does this type of stuff happen all the time? Know nothing about military, never cared before, notice this because am looking for signs that govt is doing something other than hoot-guffaw at Y2K. Just looking for more barometers. Hoping some military-intelligent posters will say whether this is par for the course or not. Thanks, Chris.xxxxxxx xxxxxxx xxx
-- Leska (allaha@earthlink.net), February 15, 1999.
I have just about given up. I'm just going to let the totalitarian boot stamp down on you all and take my chances elsewhere. If you want a military police state, I'm not going to stand in your way. Maybe my insider friend is right: "Look at voter apathy: democracy's time has passed. People don't want freedom. They want to be held and protected like the infants they are." Am I to stand in the breach and lay down my life for THAT? I don't think so.Hardliner admits in an earlier thread that the "Feds were up to their eyeballs" (did I get that right, H.?) in the OK bombing. Now those same feds are telling us that we need some of the most draconian martial law plans imaginable (the E.O.s) to cope with "cyberterrorism"(Y2k) and NBC threats. The fact is, we can no longer assume that any terrorist act is not a "Gulf of Tonkin" or "OK Bomb" incident, initiated by the Feds to justify the restructuring of the Republic into the highly controlled police state they so obviously desire. If you dismiss Waco as an isolated "mistake," if you aren't familiar with asset forfeiture and the other violations of the Constitution under the cloak of the "drug war", if you haven't been watching our sovereignty being systematically dissolved with NAFTA, GATT, and other one-world ploys, this restructuring is clearly spelled out in the E.O.s. It includes government control of resources, information, transport; it includes the drafting of civilian labor (we used to call this "slavery"), and the separation of families, if deemed necessary by unelected officials. It includes provisions for the military to control television broadcasts and print media. Now we have Marines flying black, unmarked helecopters over American cities, running invasion exercises, NOT to train in urban warfare for use in other countries as an emerging trend, but by their own admission mapping streets, gas lines, electrical and sewer lines, FOR AN EVENTUAL DOMESTIC STATE OF EMERGENCY, like OK City. And "black helecopters" is still a term of ridicule that can be used to dismiss argument. I don't care anymore. When it happens, just remember that you laughed at the people that were trying to warn you. That's really the best thing that I can see coming out of the situation, for the next few hundred years, anyway. Just a little honesty, after the fact. Because it's clear that nothing's going to prevent this from going down.
All you have to do is think: we are giving the likes of Clinton, Janet Reno, et al, (who are, as Nikoli says, part of a much larger, imponderably rich and powerful clique, who have stated their intention to make the U.S. subject to a supernational "New World Order") absolute power. And absolute power does what? Anybody?
What's happening is the worst nightmare of the framers. It is indeed the "Last Dance." And you know what they're going to do to us after they take us home.
After Y2k, no one can hear you scream. After martial law is in effect, "the whole world ISN'T watching." Once freedom of speech and assembly and gun ownership are suspended, IT'S OVER, virtually FOREVER. Add the survelliance and crowd-control technologies into this scenario. This time, they're not fucking around. There is a reason that the E.O.s contain NO PROVISION FOR RESTORING CONSTITUTIONAL GOVERNMENT. Reason: the U.S. Constitution is an impediment to World Order - as Nikoli notes, our own President has said as much. What more do you need? Quibble away about the exact meaning of this or that press release, blah, blah, blah. It's over. The best you can do now is remember. Admit to your children that you lost it for them. Plant some seeds for the future.
As for Hardliner's defense of "chumming". All one has to do is drop the phrase "child molesters" and ENTRAPMENT becomes a noble exercise. The local park and video game parlor are rife with pedophiles; they can catch more through conventional means, and do it more cheaply. The endlessly publicized "internet pedophile" stories exist to MAKE US FEAR UNFILTERED DATA. "The internet is full of porno. The internet is full of info on bomb-making. Your child will be seduced and run away to their doom if allowed to surf the internet. The internet needs to be controlled and policed and filtered to keep you safe." ad nauseam. Every print and broadcast journalist has an interest in stifling the net. Every FBI agent, too - it represents more territory to police and more justification for expanded powers. It's a threat to good order. We'll be hearing a lot about the need for order in the years following Y2k. Maybe the centuries following Y2k.
You clearly have no idea what you're surrendering, and to whom. On this score, you're repeating the polyanna's non-argument: "ultimately we just don't know what will happen." Listen to yourselves.
E.
-- E. Coli (nunayo@beeswax.com), February 15, 1999.
I'm not gonna get inta this too much, I'm a Libertarian who wants a Constitutional Government, and is sick of governmental horseshit, enough said.However, to get back to my reason for posting, Chuck had it right at the begining of the thread.
Any boater/beer drinker who is worth a shit knows what chumming is. Chumming is feedin' recycled beer to fish, along with tasty bits of lunch.
AKA- Sellin' Buicks
Buuuuuuuuick, Buuuuuuuuuuuick
-- Uncle Deedah (oncebitten@twiceshy.com), February 15, 1999.
Yes, E., I said something to the effect that I had no doubt that the feds were up to their eyeballs in the OKC bombing. I did not admit anything. You are spinning my words to use such a phrase. I have no specific knowledge of the OKC bombing, but I can not believe that all of a certain group of federal agents "just happened to be" out of the building on that morning. I was born in the morning, but it was not this morning.As for "chumming", you are equally incorrect to characterize my use of the FBI practice with pedophiles as an example for Leska as a "defense" of that practice. You are also obviously ignorant of just what entrapment consists of at law. As I previously noted, correct behavior is the universal solution to such games.
Other than that, I agree with and second every word of your post.
-- Hardliner (searcher@internet.com), February 15, 1999.
E and Deedah,Guys, I fully agree with you about what is coming, but beyond being informed, is there anything else us little guys can do? Or is it too late?
Merlin
-- Merlin Emery (MerlinEmery@yahoo.com), February 15, 1999.
Hardliner:You said it, you didn't admit it, granted. I didn't mean to suggest that you had knowledge of this atrocity. Though one doesnt' have to look very far to get a clear picture of what went down, or why. It bought the NWO/anticonstitutionalists some valuable "anti-terrorist" (i.e., expanded powers to spy on citizens) legislation - before the dust had even settled.
So whose model of "correct behavior" are you saying is the answer to this situation? Correct behavior for the Marines who are conspicuously displaying Federal force to the American people? Maybe Nikoli has an idea of behavior that is "correct" for him, but "incorrect" in the view an army of occupation. In relation to feds "chumming" for dissenters, managing perception, etc., "correct behavior" means having correct opinions. Means not holding government or military to scrutiny or accountability for their actions - or you end up on a list, to be dealt with when the time comes, ala REX84. In relation to this, and to entrapping pedophiles, you seem to be saying that "if we aren't doing anything wrong, we have nothing to fear from the police." This is the classic argument used in a police state to, a priori, place the entire population under suspicion of wrongdoing, and make sure everyone's behavior is "correct" - according to the ruling power's definition. I'll be god-damned if I'll let FEAR of these weasles dictate my words and actions. The Waco slaughter, the Marine invasion exercizes - it's all a monkey on a stick, a shot over our bow, to make us afraid and pliant.
You agree with and second my statements that what's going down is going down? Perhaps you agree with my resignation, the feeling that "democracy's time has passed?" What else could explain your comfort level with Marines running mock-invasions (psyops) in U.S. cities, or eventually fullfilling the purpose of these exercises in a Clinton-declared "emergency," running our media, controlling our movements, rounding up and imprisoning dissenters, seizing whatever is declared contraband, for the NWO? YOU tell Merlin what he should do about it. Like I said, it's history to me from here on out.
Here's a simple situation: Post-Y2k. Martial Law is in effect. Private Diapers, Green Giant First Class, is doing a house-to-house, collecting guns. There have been big, scary, "terrorist" events of one kind or another, and "right wing extremists" in various locales have resisted attempts at federal control. Registered pastors are permitted to visit domiciles, but congregating in groups larger than 3 people is forbidden. Firefights have broken out, and "militias" (i.e., anyone who resists military rule) still control some areas. So clearly, there is reason to disarm the populace, lest they, in their distress and privation, be tempted to join with this dangerous, reactionary right-wing threat. Private Diapers, with a few buddies, fully outfitted for battle, database printout of gun-owners and dissidents in hand, knocks on Merlin's door.
Diapers:
"Good evening Mister Emory. Enjoying that government cheese, I see. Well, we're real sorry, but we're going to have to collect your - hmm, let's see- your 1911A, your Glock, your Bennelli, your air pistol, your children's squirt guns, and your marshmallow toasting-fork. As well as any other contraband or treasonous literature you may wish to declare before we turn your house upside down." Merlin, with the help of some concealed buddies, get's the drop on Diapers and Co., and buries them under the old oak tree.
Who in this situation has exercized "correct behavior?"
E.
-- E. Coli (nunayo@beeswax.com), February 15, 1999.
It depends on how many rounds they used.
-- Greybear (greybear@home.com), February 15, 1999.
E., I would say that "correct behavior" is determined by the majority of the population. Lets take pedophilia for example. It is clearly not tolerated by the great majority of the population. It is clearly a terrible mental/physical health issue affecting children, mostly boys. But, someone might conter that is only my opinion as a mother and a nurse.There is a ring of pedophiles who are actively "lobbying" for their rights. http://www.ange lfire.com/tx/reachme/NAMBLA.html
A lot of propaganda is being disiminated by those same pedophiles to discredit the FBI at every turn, which obviously helps their cause.
The FBI and any other police organizations are not composed of all saints, where there's power there is potential for corruption. Heck, who knows, there might even be pedophiles among the FBI helping the ring. I'm always shocked when a seemingly respectable, intelligent well to do man is exposed as a pedophile. They are our neighbors.
Who decides what "correct behavior" is, it's the majority concensus of a community/country. In a country like the USA where cultural and religious backgrounds are numerous and very different from one another, there is bound to have a lot of discontent people with current laws and police activities.
I singled out pedophilia because most people here should relate to my opinion, but the same idea could apply to any other issue.
-- Chris (catsy@pond.com), February 15, 1999.
Chris:Continue to cloud the issue if you like; we're not that stupid here. THIS is what I'm talking about - we are living in a defacto police state, and the fact that you haven't heard about this on the evening news merely underscores the fact that your media is tightly controlled:
http://dickshovel.netgate.net/coin.html
This is the FBI I'm familiar with. You've all but accused me of supporting pedophiles; I demand that you read this and tell me if you think it's written by child molesters trying to besmirch the good name of the FBI.
Or maybe I'm wrong. Maybe anyone who criticizes the FBI is a child molester, or might as well be, because it interferes with the vital work they're doing to protect our children. Is that what you're trying to say?
Majority rules? We're talking about a situation in which a small number of unelected officials are given absolute power over the nation. Read the executive orders - it's all there. We'll be TOLD what the majority thinks, through tightly-controlled government-run media.
E.
-- E. Coli (nunayo@beeswax.com), February 15, 1999.
LO much-needed L, Greybear.E.
-- E. Coli (nunayo@beeswax.com), February 15, 1999.
E. I'm not acusing you of anything at all! But I do think that you are more..uh..suspicious (hate to use the word paranoid anymore) than I am.Maybe I wasn't clear enough and didn't mean to cloud the issue. What I'm attempting to say is that the FBI "you know" is perhaps colored by your own views and opinions than the one I know. They're trying to police a nation that is chaotic to the max, paranoia is bound to happen.
The link you gave is not going to impress me as it's all opinions with no names and references given to back up their statements.
-- Chris (catsy@pond.com), February 15, 1999.
Sorry Chris, I put up the wrong link. Here's a more complete version account of COINTELPRO, with all the footnotes you could hope for. Let me know if there's anything missing, anything that would lead you to suspect that this information is false or misleading:http://www.accessone.com/~rivero/POLITICS/COINTELPRO/cointelpro.html
I'm not trying to "impress" you, Chris. I'm trying to get you to look at suppressed American history. Recent history. Of a period that is now still in progress. This isn't "conspriracy theory," at least Congress didn't think so. FBI COINTELPRO operations are not a matter of opinion.
If you, Chris, or anyone else wants some idea of the forces at work, or the people who are going to be literally calling the shots after Y2k, here are some more links (also with lots of footnotes) about how they operate:
Infiltrating the "free" press to control the news:
http://www.accessone.com/~rivero/POLITICS/MOCK/mockingbird.html
Spying on citizens with impunity:
http://www.accessone.com/~rivero/POLITICS/ECHELON/echelon.html
Here's the FBI again, lying about evidence:
http://www.accessone.com/~rivero/POLITICS/DOJ_REPORT/fbil1toc.htm
Coffee's ready.
E.
-- E. Coli (nunayo@beeswax.com), February 15, 1999.
E.,I find your attempt to spin and twist my words offensive.
Upon second, third, fourth and subsequent reading, my comments regarding "correct behavior" seem equally clear. They refer to "such games" and describe the antithesis to the "game" of "chumming". They also apply to the situation where a police functionary is attempting to entrap a victim.
The "situation" that you attempt to characterize as "simple" is anything but. You are describing civil war. The solution to war is not correct behavior but superiority through firepower. You take a stand and fight for it until you win or die. That's simple.
You really need to get a more accurate picture of the capabilities and methodology of the feds in general and the military in particular too. Your computer generated list of weapons held, is only a BATF agent's wet dream. No where in the federal law enforcement community is there an organization that has both the organizational and information technology skills and the historical continuity to produce such a list. Your scenario of a Private conducting a house to house search is also fantasy. To begin with, privates are the "other guys", not the ones with a list or even with the orders. In the second place, that remnant of today's military that would be left after the desertions resulting from a civil war such as you have described would not be capable of survival for long against the departed fragment combined with the militias that are currently in place. It simply doesn't wash.
And probably most relevant of all, the idea of today's military supporting "Slick" in such an endeavor is laughable. You'll have no trouble finding BATF agents who think he's a great leader. The FBI will gladly go along, all the Interior department SWAT guys will no doubt follow too, but you'll have to find another president before the military becomes such a threat.
Now, that's just my opinion, and you'll have to take it for what it's worth, but we don't have long to wait in any case, do we?
-- Hardliner (searcher@internet.com), February 16, 1999.
Merlin: Remember, when the time comes, the Warsaw Ghetto uprising in WWII. Handful of desperate Jews held off the mighty Wehrmacht for four months, if I remember. (The Wehrmacht were sort of the BATF of their day). Also, remember Mogadishu. Amateur 'warlords,' (translate as Somalian Nativists, if you like) shot up a bunch of U.S. Army Rangers. I personally remember reading the book 'Fail Safe when I was young.' In it, a Jewish interrogater for the Americans, given the job of grilling captured Nazis, wonders why the Jews in Germany didn't meet the Nazis who came to round them up with resistance. If memory serves, his reasoning went like this: The first hundred houses, firefight ensues, all Jews dead, some Nazis dead. The first thousand times, the Nazis are much more wary, some of the troops balk, and finally, when they realize the tenacity of the resistance, the abandon the practice of rounding up Jews. Now, maybe that was wishful thinking, but if you want a glimpse of such thinking in action, pop over to visit the website of Jews For the Preservation of Firearms Ownership. And if they come to your door, think Never Again! Die on your feet like a man, not on your knees like a slave. Live Free or Die! And while I'm at it...Fear God, not men.
-- Spidey (IN@JAM.COM), February 16, 1999.
E., I've looked at those COINTELPRO links, and they still only are biased views with not much proof or evidence. I'm not denying that the FBI et al use threatening and controling tactics, I'm not that naive. But we're not in Russia, and we have many balancing factions that would prevent a total take over. Hardliner's comments support what I mean.You yourself represent one such balancing force, with your guard-dog attitude ;-) But on the other hand, as imperfect as the US system is and the FBI and CIA, I'm glad they're the conning weasels that they are, otherwise they'd be innefective in keeping me safe. Total democrasy and freedom is a child's fantasy and impossible in a viable society. Some give and take must be done. Some freedom surrendered yada yada yada. And checks and balances must be strong. They're strong here from what I can see. I'm not as afraid as you are of a gov. dictatorship post y2K.
I'll leave the politics back to you men, as I've got lundry to do and have stated my opinion ;-) .
Just remember, Eagles might soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet angines (think of the FBI.)
-- Chris (catsy@pond.com), February 16, 1999.
Well there it is Ecoli. "Some freedom must be surrendered yada yada yada.." There is no reasoning with such a mindset. This is exactly the view held by the German populace as Hitler began his persecution of the Jews.
-- Nikoli Krushev (doomsday@y2000.com), February 16, 1999.
Geesh guys!Look at your own midsets. I mean, REALLY look at it.
Thanks for the comments Hardliner and Chris.
Just for the record, when I was a teen, I witnessed an armed robbery in progress. I reported it to the police, described the vehicle as they were loading it, ended up going on the stake-out, was at the scene and identified the criminals when caught and surrounded, and helped testify in court, so that in plea-bargaining at least one went to prison and the others to jail. So, what does that make me E?
Concerned and caring. They tied up and terrorized an 80-year-old neighbor.
And I'd do it again. Doesn't matter if it's a criminal or a uniform. If they are abusing power, I'll blow a whistle.
Diane
At any rate, also check this thread ...
PENTAGON DEBATES WEB SIGHT INFO AVAILABILITY
http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id= 000VExHarumph!
-- Diane J. Squire (sacredspaces@yahoo.com), February 16, 1999.
>>No where in the federal law enforcement community is there an organization that has both the organizational and information technology skills and the historical continuity to produce such a list.Clever answer. You limit the resources of globalism to "the Federal Law Enforcement Community." I'm not talking about only the FBI, or the NSA, or the NRO, etc., but the people who control the budgets for, and hence ultimately control and coordinate, all these entities. Just admit -to yourself, if not to us- that there are some things you don't WANT to know.
Seizing upon the technical flaws in my dramatic example shows you grasping at straws, Hardliner. The current Marine invasions of our cities are psychological operations, to intimidate the American people, prior to subjegation under martial law. I find your defense of those exercises, and that contingency (in this and other threads), to be more than offensive. I expect to see Marines presiding over the very conditions I described (suspension of freedoms of speech and assembly, seizure of guns, subversive literature and contraband, even more routine "dynamic entry" and wanton killing than under the current drug war)under martial law, post-Y2k. And when Spidey and Nikoli are living-free-or-dying, I think it's pretty clear who you'll be rooting for.
Chris, your shameless defense of "a little" corruption is beneath contempt.
Diane, >>If they are abusing power, I'll blow a whistle.
Are they? Did you use the URL? Read it? Think about it? Look for confirmation, opposing views...? This has been happening since the sixties. Where have you been looking for abuse of power? CSPAN?
Nikoli, Spidey, others,
When people like you are gone, there will be no America left. So don't be any braver than you need to be. If they really put the people in a vise, as I think they inevitably will, kill 'em with kindness at the door - then if they rob you, really make it count, when you can gain the advantage. Prepare for this, while you can.
I've had enough of casting my pearls before swine. I am not going to fight over a rotten carcass. The majority of people here don't know their history, don't care to know, and parrot medial cartel characterizations of independent thought ("conspiracy theory") whenever information clashes with their received values and data. As most here are more intelligent, independent and inquisitive than average, this bodes ill for the future of the nation. That is, if people who "get" Y2k don't "get" the fact that the sovereignty of their nation (and with it, their already tenuous grasp on their liberties) are under attack, then there is little hope.
When your country is finally sold from under you, and you are slaves again, remember that you were warned. You wanted to be "protected" at all costs, even the cost of your Constitution and your National sovereignty. You let something sacred fall from your hand, and let it become a joke. Your are about to learn that government is not a fashion show. Think of the people that DWGI about Y2k. They are your mirror.
Now I'm taking my "delusions of grander" and leaving this rot to the vultures.
E.
-- E. Coli (nunayo@beeswax.com), February 16, 1999.
Oh so E., because I'm not in the grasp of dellusion of grandeur I'm beneath your contempt. Well I'll have to live with that. I guess I'll never "get it".
-- Chris (catsy@pond.com), February 16, 1999.
Wow! eery! I hadn't seen your last sentence about delusion of grandeur. So you realize yourself you have a problem, or perhaps you've been told often? Take a hint E., perhaps you really are deluded.
-- Chris (catsy@pond.com), February 16, 1999.
What the hell is wrong with you, E.? You've lost it bub! You're simply ranting and raving and not making any sense at all!There's nothing "clever" about my answer. Such a list cannot be produced. If it could, and the "forces of globalism" knew where all the guns were, they wouldn't lurk about for one second! If these folks are so all powerful and all knowing, they'd have us all in cages and collars already! I "limited" my statement to federal law enforcement simply because they're the ones who would have to perform such measures. If you think that this is not so, how about some names and facts instead of the mysterious "globalist elite"?
Yes, E., there ARE things that I don't want to know. I don't want to know how many fillings you have or whether or not you have hemorrhoids or whether or not you are too closely related to your spouse. But as far as the future of this country, there is not a single thing that I am afraid to know or wish to avoid finding out.
As for straws, you're the one who seems to be dealing in "a simple situation" that has somehow turned into a "dramatic example" with "technical flaws"! BULLSHIT, E.! You're building scenarios of the civil war that you fear and you're casting players that you think you understand in roles that you only imagine. Yeah! You'll find some Marines doing those things if a civil war erupts. You'll also find some soldiers, sailors and airmen doing them along with some cops. You'll also find the rest of the Marines and soldiers and sailors and airmen and those cops who honor their oaths filling out the militias and fighting and dying for the Constitution as they've sworn to do. You shoot your foul mouth off a lot about how this country's servicemen will turn on the citizenry, and you've never indicated that you have any inkling of what it's like to engage in mortal combat on behalf of your own promise. It sure sounds like you know a whole lot about the "living free" part and nothing whatsoever about the dying part. As for which side I'll be on, you'd better hope that you're wrong because if you're not, you're dead meat but if you are, I'll only kick your ass so badly that you'll have to take off your shirt to shit!
You need to leave. Get some mental help. Learn to analyze some hard data and LEARN SOME COURTESY AND TACT WHILE YOU'RE AT IT !!!
-- Hardliner (searcher@internet.com), February 16, 1999.
Spidy, Thankx for the reminders. Masada, six million Jews, one million Catholics, and half a million Gypsys come to mind. One never knows exactly what one will do in any given crisis, but I am a believer in: "Forwarned is Forarmed." Some things are more important than personal safty.Merlin
-- Merlin Emery (MerlinEmery@yahoo.com), February 16, 1999.
Spidey,Your reminder of the Warsaw Ghetto resistance is not only appropriate, it is one of the all time examples of how ordinary people fighting for their lives within a city held off the premier army of its time. (BTW, Wehrmacht, literally translated means "defense authority" and referred to the entire German armed forces.)
-- Hardliner (searcher@internet.com), February 16, 1999.
Hardliner; I think E;coli has eloquently argued his case, and if you are indeed what you represent your self to be you must acknowledge the validity of his arguments. I personally would like to think that all of our armed forces hold your mindset, but the recent events here in Texas just do not bear that out. I am not a militia member or a member of any other organization, just a freedom loving, God fearing, gun owning , American and Texas country boy. There are thousands of others just like me scattered across the south, and I can assure you that when and if the gov. decides to take this to the next level we'll be there to meet them.
-- Nikoli Krushev (doomsday@y2000.com), February 16, 1999.
See also threads ...Heads Up San Antonio, Texas (Urban Warriors Coming Your Way This Week)
http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id= 000VOLInvasion of Monterey PLEASE READ
http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id= 000VNiIt's only urban warfare training
http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id= 000VHTFEMA sealing off Texas?
http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id= 000V7tArmy to reimburse Kingsville
http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id= 000Uzb
-- Diane J. Squire (sacredspaces@yahoo.com), February 16, 1999.
I'm not pulling an Art Bell here by popping back; I just don't want to leave on such a sour note. Hardliner: didn't mean to get you so stoked. You are okay with Marines/Martial law scenario. You trust the military. I don't. Like Nikoli, we see what they're allowing themselves to be used for now. If enough pressure is put on the country via terrorism or foreign conflict, in addition to the Y2k economic disaster, standards will sink even lower. In desperate times, people find themselves doing things they would never have imagined themselves doing. If the logic of gun seizures, internment of dissidents, etc. is not clear, the puppeteers will do what it takes to make it clear. Just like Oklahoma. The people that imagine they own us know all about how to create these conditions; it is an art and a science for them. It didn't start yesterday. And they are capable of anything. We're going to wake up and find that we've all shredded the Constitution (what's left of it), in our sleep.As for "filling out the militias," I'd be there myself if they weren't so heavily infiltrated and sabotaged, COINTELPRO style. Even if they weren't I don't share your optimism in terms of rebellion; the field conditions and public perception are well-controlled. That's my whole point in bringing up counter-intelligence. There is practically more FBI right now in the Idaho militia than in Washington DC. That's in part why they've moved some of their higher brain function out there, and to NC, the trouble spots. And it's not just the militias, it's churches, gun clubs - anything that looks likely. If we study what they did to the Black Panthers, et al, we'll know what they're doing to the militias and maybe, if you do eventually decide you have to "fill them out" you all won't be throwing your lives away in a staged conflict. I think the forces at work don't want to supress conflict; they want to provoke a conflict on American soil, and, utilizing tried and true methods of infiltration and funding both sides, assure the outcome, regardless of which side wins. They make money by loaning money for arms to both sides; they make money supplying both sides; they make money loaning for rebuilding, after. Each time, the world is built a little closer to their ideal. They did this in WWII and the Civil War. And they set it all up well in advance of game-time. I don't want you and other honorable men to throw their lives away in this event; that's my motivation here (though I didn't express it very effectively). Correct behavior is what they're counting on. Correct behavior and faulty intelligence (in the military sense) among the lower eschelons who keep their oath.
Maybe I am slipping in the common courtesy department. But given the above considerations, I don't see any positive outcome here; yet I keep running it through my mind, searching for one, and I've realized I need to stop. At this late date, and with the perception-management effort that is occuring in all media, I have no realistic hope of changing a significant number minds about what is happening. Killing, as a solution, has limited, strictly local and tactical value, given the depth of the problem, and the control system in place, as outlined above. My mind may change, particularly if I see the level of desertion you describe, or cognizance, in any resistance movement, of the financial forces at work. But as yet I don't see any clear answer; I just know I can't afford to march toward the martial law cliff, saying "I guess we'll know when we get there." I've already ventured to guess. Anyhow, I've truely valued your contribution to this forum, and wasn't intentionally trying to get your goat (some goat too, btw).
I'm completely shifting gears now. I'm ready for Y2k, but no one's ready for what's going down politically. I am turning away from "what's going to happen" and reformulating my world view in terms of "what happened?" which is the question we're all going to be asking when we wake up in chains (if we ever wake up at all). What really happened. This is a big part of my life's work. Then I'll die (at some point very shortly thereafter, if not well before) - you can count on that.
Incidentally, All, the latest issue of NEXUS has a fairly clear encapsulation of international banking and staged conflict, etc..
Thanks everybody. I'm really gone now, to a place where there is no Web.
E.
-- E. Coli (nunayo@beeswax.com), February 16, 1999.
It sure won't be the same without you, E
-- Greybear (greybear@home.com), February 16, 1999.
HEY ESo long bud, it's been good to know ya. I mean that, yer a thinkin dude. (dude-ete? still not clear on that) Truth be told, I'm kinda thinkin along those lines meself. Not quite there yet, but it will be time to move on soon.
Good luck to ya laddie!
-- Uncle Deedah (oncebitten@twiceshy.com), February 16, 1999.
Good grief, E Coli, you're going to leave just after you spear out chinks in our ignorance armor. That's painful! Don't go for long, just enough to become refreshed and raring to spark our brains with your elucidations. Don't know what to think of all this, but will miss you. To all the thought warriors on these threads, thank you.Ashton & Leska in Cascadia, learning too much
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-- Leska (allaha@earthlink.net), February 16, 1999.
E., if I apologize for my own rudeness will you come back? 8*) Sheesh E., toughen up a bit will ya? Leska is right, we're learning with those heated arguements between you and Hardliner. I didn't mean to get on your case and flame, sorta just happened ;-) And you made a good point, I'm not staying around to find out what Martial law is going to be like, I've stated that several times before. If you're right, I'll certainly remember all that you said and eat my words. I've always admired how much you know and how smart you are, it's just that some of that sounds a bit too paranoid to me, but then again I sound paranoid to less informed people about Y2K. So I'll try to keep my mind open even if a lot of it about the gov is hard to swallow.
-- Chris (catsy@pond.com), February 16, 1999.
Thanks for sharing E.Many will keep the watch, each in their own way.
Diane
-- Diane J. Squire (sacredspaces@yahoo.com), February 17, 1999.
E, you're welcome at my teepee any day bud. I hate losing an ally and a person I was coming to consider as a friend even though we have never met. I'm done with this political wrangling myself. The evidence is there for all to see and it is just too stressful trying to make the general public wake up. See you on the far side.
-- Nikoli Krushev (doomsday@y2000.com), February 17, 1999.
If we truly lose him, it WILL be a loss. I have enjoyed the sparring, even though I have taken to the sidelines, which is HARD for a large mouth like me. However, ANY body using a balista knows full well it's time to head for the sidelines when the repeating air guns and machine pistols come out. (Something about showing up for a battle of wits unarmed, or showing up at a gunfight with a knife!!LOL!) I bow to superior firepower and intelect (only).Chuck
-- Chuck, night driver (rienzoo@en.com), February 17, 1999.
More on Kingsvillexxxxxxx xxxxxxx xxxxxxx
-- Leska (allaha@earthlink.net), February 17, 1999.
E.,On the chance that you'll see this (no response necessary), don't think that you've left on a sour note on my account. You do "get my goat" when you so easily dismiss the loyalty and allegiance to the Constitution of so many of our military people. If you'd spent a lifetime within those ranks, you'd realize that the political weenies who do well in peacetime quickly fall by the wayside when combat is imminent. Don't sweat the lower ranks, they're pretty solid folk. The biggest problem will be those officers who have betrayed their oath and utilize the loyalty of those subordinate to them to bad effect. Such is unavoidable in anyone's military, but the record of the American armed forces is much better than most throughout history. Most of our military is made up of guys like "Nikoli", ". . .not a militia member or a member of any other organization, just a freedom loving, God fearing, gun owning , American and Texas country boy", (although there's never enough Texans! Is my bias showing?) Anyway, the martial law that you seem to fear so greatly may well come to pass, but no one is going to convince all those guys from all over America to just forget everything that they've believed in for all of their lives. If by some chance they're hoodwinked into beginning such treason, they'll soon realize what's up and then you'll see a bloodbath like you have never imagined and it won't be civilians who do the dying. We survived General Benedict Arnold and Norway survived Quisling, and we'll survive whatever traitors we must in the years to come. The bankers and elite families that you are so worried about are not as omnipotent as you fear. All the gold in the world will not save them from an Infomagic scenario and anything less will only reduce the damage to their plans and power. We've been over this before, but it bears repeating; these guys will be hurt as badly by Y2K as anyone and everyone else. Y2K may well turn out to be their end entirely.
Enough. I simply want to wish you well as you follow whatever path you find yourself on. Try to keep in mind that the vast majority of Americans who wear and have worn the uniform of our military have a sense of duty, honor and country that is much deeper than you seem willing to believe. If the future should bring you into contact with any Jarheads, feel free to ask if they know "Hardliner". You'll probably get mostly quizzical looks and create a perception that you're a little nuts, but you never know.
-- Hardliner (searcher@internet.com), February 17, 1999.
This is more that just the loss of one of our more articulate speakers.This is more that just the loss of one that some of us call friend and others call worthy adversary.
This is an indication of the "times". Exactly what the implications are will have to wait for a later post.
-- Greybear, sadened for all GIs
- Got It?
-- Greybear (greybear@home.com), February 17, 1999.
"(Something about showing up for a battle of wits unarmed, or showing up at a gunfight with a knife!!LOL!)--ChuckHey Chuck, I resemble that remark!
E. (desperately hoping you're still lurking) and everyone, here's something to support what Hardliner is saying;
""You know, we took an oath when we got sworn in to defend the country against foreign and domestic enemies. It doesn't say what kind of domestic enemies. It could include guys in black uniforms in the assassination squads and so on," he declared.
Sanchez was cleared for top secret clearance and was what he calls a "spook" for Naval Intelligence. One of the most decorated veterans of Vietnam, he was disabled and wounded in action. He survived two plane crashes and other close brushes with death.
In the Navy he was assigned the responsibility to find bad officers and bad military police. He says he is just continuing to do what he once did for the Navy."
This Sanchez guy sure sounds like a Hardliner to me.
E. and Hardliner are two equally strong and solid minds, but they are not adversaries. As far as I can tell, they both are true constitutional patriots, E. sees the writing on the wall and the smoke, and Hardliner is trying to convince him that a few bad apples among his peers will not get the upper hand.
The picture in my mind that together they paint is quite scary. Bloody civil war.
-- Chris (catsy@pond.com), February 17, 1999.
Just came across this amazing thread.
Way Back When, the entire rank-and-file question of What Would They Do was heavily debated as part of whether the U.S. armed forces should be comprised of draftees, or completely volunteer.
The reality is that we no longer have The Draft as that "ace in the hole". And so consequently I think that E makes very plausible arguments that should not be so easily dismissed. (And I sure hope that we have not seen the last of E!...)
-- Jack (jsprat@eld.net), February 17, 1999.
Damn Jack. I've re-read E.'s posts carefully and I've been hit by a 4x4; I can't dismiss this to paranoia anymore, E.'s just too bright and logical.I'm now worrying either I've encountered a cultist type persona in E. who has the power to persuade me, or he really has a grasp on reality which I'm lacking. Either way, I need serious meditation on this.
-- Chris (catsy@pond.com), February 17, 1999.
Please don't let the word Cult distract you. The word has been egregiously applied and distracts from the PERSONAL truth that everyone must arrive at.This is why the original Miniute Men were such a pain-in-the-but, they were each an individual "fighting unit". Each with their own solid opinions.
--Greybear, Cult of Independant SOBs, total membership - 1, not accepting applications.
- Got Self?
-- Greybear (greybear@home.com), February 17, 1999.
Getting worse. Something definitely afoot, in air, coming down.
More on Kingsville
National Guard Blurb On ABC StationProof & confirmation pouring in from Forum posters. E Coli, come back.
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-- Leska (allaha@earthlink.net), February 17, 1999.
Greybear, I hear you. Problem with keeping the door of the mind open is that a lot of creepy, ugly creatures get in. Ignorance is bliss indeed.During my first minute of meditation, I realized that my best recourse would be to put as much serious and deep research about E.'s allegations and views as I did with y2K. (Maybe if I keep meditating long enough this idea will go away...)
-Got will, guts and time?
(dang, now I've been infected with that cure line too.)
Leska, the heat is turning up on this subject for sure. Both on and outside the internet it appears. How safe is it for us and this forum to discuss this at length here, if the feds are deep into these secret shenanigans?
-- Chris (catsy@pond.com), February 17, 1999.
Chris, they don't seem to be trying to keep it super secret anymore. It's on national TV. They've won the intimidation game if we can't discuss it on here. It's not like we can DO anything about it except stock more TP. It just makes me more determined to enjoy upcoming Spring months and smell the flowers as much as possible. And meditate more. Preparing to meet my Maker, got lots to say to Him/Her ;-)The universal galactic computer was down when I got sent here. Only visiting this planet. This was a mistaken placement, a glitchy accident. Time soon to go Home and make sure this error is fully and completely permanently remediated and will never bite again!
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-- Leska (allaha@earthlink.net), February 17, 1999.
I noticed that most of these incidents have occurred in the south/southwest. Think they'll be doing more of this "testing" up near the Canadian border soon?
-- Jenny (dont_want_ringsideseats@theshow.org), February 17, 1999.
[For educational purposes only]
Ol d Courthouse Stormed In Mock RescueThursday, Feb. 18, 1999
Old courthouse stormed in mock rescue
Special Forces use guns, explosives in practice operation
By NOVELDA SOMMERS AND JAMES A. SUYDAM, Staff Writers
Army Special Forces troops took the Old Nueces County Courthouse by storm Wednesday night in a mock-hostage rescue of an ambassador from one of the jail cells.
The crack of gunfire and the low, loud boom of grenade explosions could be heard across the city. "All of a sudden, we saw cops blocking the streets and we heard gunshots," said Conrad DeLaPaz, 19, who pulled his minivan over and parked to watch the maneuvers.
DeLaPaz said he was at first frightened by what appeared to be an assault on the city. The exercise by the Army Special Operations Command from Fort Bragg was the last in a series performed in the Corpus Christi area, Police Chief Pete Alvarez said.
"It was really a neat exercise, something we'll probably never see again in Corpus Christi," Alvarez said.
The soldiers' mission was to rescue an ambassador being held hostage by enemy forces, Alvarez said. In the process, they set up snipers outside the building whose mission was to kill guards, allowing soldiers access.
The sharp crack of gunfire seemed to signal the beginning of the exercise. An instant later, several black helicopters without lights landed and dropped off soldiers.
The soldiers used grenades and explosives to blow open doors, Alvarez said.
A helicopter also landed on the Mann Building.
The soldiers had to take out more than 60 bad guys - some real men, some plywood cutouts -in and around the courthouse before extracting the ambassador from the jail cell.
They reached the hostage in about 10 minutes and finished the operation in about 25 minutes, he said.
`An awesome display'
Mayor Loyd Neal, City Councilmen Ed Martin and John Longoria and City Councilwoman Melody Cooper witnessed the exercises from the driveway of Fire Station No. 1, just across the street from the courthouse.
"It was an awesome display; those helicopter pilots were fantastic," said Neal, a former Airborne Ranger with 30 years of military service.
One helicopter hovered inches above a crane at the worksite for the new federal courthouse, dropping off two snipers. The helicopter came back later in the exercise to pluck the men from the top of the crane.
Two of the choppers landed on the roof of the courthouse. The others landed around the courthouse square. A large Blackhawk helicopter then settled in just to the north of the courthouse.
"The pilot of that Blackhawk had more than 5,000 hours of flight time in that helicopters," said Neal, who had been briefed about the drill by Sam Joseph, an operations leader from Fort Bragg. "I've never seen anything as precise as what that guy was able to do under those conditions in the dark like that."
Smooth exercises
Joseph said the urban warfare training exercise in Corpus Christi was one of the smoothest ever. "The cooperation from guys like your police chief was just fantastic," he said. "We really appreciate it. He's a hell of a guy."
On Tuesday, Army representatives briefed the council on the operations and addressed concerns about citizen safety related to the exercises.
During the exercises, helicopters have been seen swooping low over residential areas in Annaville, Kingsville and Port Aransas. The soldiers, wearing black face masks and night-vision goggles, use explosives and sometimes fire live rounds during the exercises, the soldiers said.
In Kingsville on Feb. 8, explosions and rifle fire startled nearby residents, and the attack caused a fire that gutted an abandoned police building and blew windows out of another building nearby.
Army officials have said that 50 to 60 soldiers were involved with the two-week exercise. The Army Special Operations Command in Fort Bragg had received permission from the city for the exercises.
The unit has encountered problems in other cities where the times and locations of the operations were widely known, Joseph has said. In one case, he said, 200 people crowded onto the roof of an abandoned factory to watch the operation, threatening to collapse the roof and slowing the unit's vehicles.
Dusty Durrill, owner of the company that owns the old courthouse, said he was approached by Army officials about six months ago. Durrill said he didn't receive any compensation for the exercise, but that Army officials agreed to pay for any damage.
Traffic disrupted
Traffic was shut off on the I-37 overpass going toward Portland from 7:45 to 8 p.m. and again from 8:20 to 8:30 p.m. Traffic leaving Portland could enter Corpus Christi. The Harbor Bridge walkway also was closed.
"We've had 10 times worse traffic jams during a major car accident," said Lt. Ken Ersland of the Corpus Christi Police Department. "Closing off the highway caused a minimal amount of inconvenience to the residents."
Army officials asked for road closures so the helicopters wouldn't distract motorists or send debris onto cars, Ersland said.
"The whole thing went off like clockwork, and I'm a Marine and I don't usually praise the Army," he said.
....
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-- Leska (allaha@earthlink.net), February 21, 1999.
The invasion of Texas, 1999xxxxxxx xxxxxxx xxxxxxx
-- Leska (allaha@earthlink.net), February 21, 1999.
Can Somebody Explain Why The Army Is Trying To Intimidate American Citizens??? THIS DOES NOT BODE WELL...xxxxxxx xxxxxxx xxxxxx
-- Leska (allaha@earthlink.net), February 21, 1999.
Y2K The Hidden Driving Force Behind The Governments Urban Warrior Exercises, Et. Al.?xxxxxxx xxxxxxx xxxxxx
-- Leska (allaha@earthlink.net), February 24, 1999.
More urban military news, this with a computer-centric outlook:[ For Educational Purposes Only ]
Urban Training Exercise Tests New Battle Technologies4/14/99 -- 7:05 PM
CAMP PENDLETON, Calif. (AP) - Soldiers are spending the week here tapping away on their laptop computers, sending out e-mails to friends.
But those friends are troops aboard a ship 25 miles off the coast, and the e-mails include exchanges of information on the location of enemy forces.
In what may be the future of combat, soldiers and sailors used laptops Wednesday to view aerial photographs, direct troops through unfamiliar territory and direct fire in a simulated assault on a Western city.
``It's not just whiz-bang technology,'' said Fred Belen, a civilian Navy employee and demonstration manager for the project. ``It has to help us fight a war.''
The weeklong training exercise, called Advanced Concept Technology Demonstration, involves 500 troops from all four branches of the military. The project, launched in 1997 with General Dynamics as the main contractor, has four-year budget of nearly $30 million.
By 2025, 70 percent of the world's population is expected to live in urban, coastal areas.
To simulate that environment, part of Wednesday's test was conducted at ``Alisoville,'' a mock village of cinderblock homes, crashed cars and bomb-damaged buildings at Camp Pendleton, 40 miles north of San Diego.
The simulation employed technology that is not used by any military force, Belen said. Traditionally, commanders use handheld radios to dispatch information from battlegrounds. New computer systems will allow commanders to safely direct troops from as far as 300 miles away.
``We can now see the whole picture the same as the person on the ground,'' said Marine Lt. Col. Frank DiFalco.
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They don't seem to be worrying about computer failures ;-)"direct troops through unfamiliar territory and direct fire in a simulated assault on a Western city" -- that should help us sleep better at night ...
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-- Leska (allaha@earthlink.net), April 15, 1999.
Thanks Leska,Might be worth it to link ...
Y2K, Terrorism, Reservists, The National Guard And Employer Support
http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id= 000i6OWho knows where it will all end up?
Diane
-- Diane J. Squire (sacredspaces@yahoo.com), April 15, 1999.
I was wondering about all those unusually loud explosions up near the base this week. Didn't sound like the usual artillery practice. Jarheads with laptops directing fire, eh? Sure hope their mail server doesn't go south...
-- Mac (sneak@lurk.hid), April 15, 1999.
Leska -That Tampa Bay Online link has shifted to a different/current TBO article. Do you have a more specific link?
-- Mac (sneak@lurk.hid), April 15, 1999.
Mac, those AP Breaking News (tampabay) links go dead in a matter of hours, which is why I post the text; I don't know how to find the articles after the links go dead. I don't know how/why/when/which other media decide to carry those articles. Yesterday Gary North wrote that the biggest problem with his site is dead links; he is sorry because he wanted a historical archive. That's exactly what I've been saying for months here, and that's why I post the text, for long-term educational purposes. This Forum will be *the* archive for centuries of research about the 2000 rollover.There's a chance the article will reincarnate here:
Y2K NewsBe sure to look on left blue box and click "News Archives"
There are so many news-worthy articles at this site, but the Forum has not seemed as interested in the news recently, so I haven't posted much text, but if you really want to read what's up, check out Y2K News and read the articles. Some stunning facts do escape the spin cycle.
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-- Leska (allaha@earthlink.net), April 15, 1999.