More on Kingsville : LUSENET : TimeBomb 2000 (Y2000) : One Thread

I know some of you are not fond of WorldNetDaily...but the opinions expressed by Sanchez (the fire chief/ex-military/present Guard in the article I have heard echoed by other ex-military/present Guard members. It seems we have a real convergence of power issues and power struggles going on internally ... and this is the LAST thing we need now.

-- Shelia (, February 17, 1999

Answers's the link... a.shtml

-- Shelia (, February 17, 1999.

Thanks Shelia,

Note ...

... Gov. George W. Bush, R-Texas, says it is not his job to get involved in the concerns over Army Night Stalkers using live ammunition in a civilian area of his state.

[And he wants the voters to elect him President? Bad choice with this attitude!]

... "Apparently you need to contact Fort Bragg if you need more information about this," she said. "Apparently in these types of exercises the Army goes through local law enforcement and local officials and not through the state.

"So this really isn't an issue that would be dealt with by the governor's office. We're going to look into it further, but at this point all I can tell you is that you need to contact Fort Bragg for more information. According to the Army, they have notified local law enforcement in all the communities that they are doing these exercises in," she told WorldNetDaily. ...

The rest is a must read too.

Diane *Very Big Sigh*

-- Diane J. Squire (, February 17, 1999.

So isn't it time someone hunted down Dick Marcinko, arguably not a disinterested observer, and asked hin what HE thinks in the SOAR- Night Stalkers teams and their scenarios????

I'm fairly sure that Dick would give a reasonably un-influenced statement, given his attitudes and opinions in his non-fiction semi- autobiographical "Rogue Warrior". I'm short on patience with the rest of his picture-less comic books, but, ya gotta make money any way ya can.

His position/information might be VERY interesting (to quote Arnie ..... of Laugh In).

BTW I believe these guys (SOAR-Night Stalkers) are the same unit that has lost a number of teams in night chopper crashes due to flying wearing spook-eyes. something about a loss of depth perception, even with the newer generation with the separate left and right ccd chips/screens.


-- Chuck, night driver (, February 17, 1999.

I think the most important thing in those articles is the fact that they're saying the Posse Comitatus Act no longer applies, due to the secret Presidential Decision Directive #25. (PDD 25). A law is overturned and no one can even see the text of this PDD 25. Amazing, if true. Anyone else catch that? It's way down in the articles, you actually have to read the whole thing.

-- b (b@b.b), February 17, 1999.

"Sanchez, 56, is now a lieutenant colonel in the Texas State Guard. He says that he takes the oath he raised his hand to very seriously.

"You know, we took an oath when we got sworn in to defend the country against foreign and domestic enemies. It doesn't say what kind of domestic enemies. It could include guys in black uniforms in the assassination squads and so on," he declared. "

"In the Navy he [Sanchez] was assigned the responsibility to find bad officers and bad military police. He says he is just continuing to do what he once did for the Navy. "

This Sanchez sounds like a Hardliner.

This whole thing is getting curiouser and curiouser...Drives me nuts that only the WorldNetDaily is reporting with such strong inuendos on these operations.

-- Chris (, February 17, 1999.

Yesterday morning at around 10-11 a.m. several (approx. 15) black helicopters flew in low altitude over our ranch about 10 miles east of I-75, 10 miles south of Red River. They had no visible call letters or insigna. I found this occurrence to be disturbing. Talked to a couple of neighbors and mgr of small local airport in Sherman - they said this happens occassionally. My father, my husband, my uncles, my cousin were or are career military officers. I grew up on or around military bases...I support the military but this and the occurence in Kingsville I find disconcerting. For one reason, I think it's because I find unmarked helicopters ominous. Why don't they have an U.S. insigna of some kind? The airport mgr said they could be from the DEA looking for marijuana plants...but it's the middle of February and hardly anything is green much less growing. We're due for a couple of more freezes before spring. My husband said because of terroism...but we don't find much of that occurring in this sleepy part of the country and certainly no support for such activity. If they are practicing with a great need for secrecy then why don't they go to a more remote area of the country such as the SW desert rather than near relatively more populated areas (Dallas-FW is 55 miles south of us).

They're are no active military bases nearby us. There is no accountability...if there low flying activity causes injury to livestock or ranchers, who is liable if no one admits there presence? From this point I will contact the county sheriff and our congressperson to see if they can shed any light on this matter. A local TV station, KXII-Channel 12 did report last night at 10 pm on the incident in Kingsville but no mention of any local activity.

My father, my husband and my uncle all risked their lives in combat in Vietnam. I pray that none of them (and the other millions of our armed services) who were willing to make these sacrifices for our freedom did this in vain. I pray that no type of restriction of our freedoms is allowed - as alluded to by the article about Kingsville which mentions some directive allowing the military to be used as a police force.

I'm just trying to analyze and cope with my feelings concerning this as well as the changes coming with Y2K. I just don't know what will happen and that's rather disconcerting. We had recently moved to this more rural location from Dallas for a number of reasons but one was to be outside of a large city in case of Y2K complications. Now I find myself not feeling so secluded.

Your comments are welcome.

-- Texan (, February 17, 1999.

Sounds like these fun-loving boys are out-and-about still.

Dam, this is all happening WAY too soon.

Hardliner, your opinion of these continuing events would be most interesting. It would seem that these events have or are soon going to surpass anyting that can credibly accounted for as "training exersizes".

For discussion sake I'll stipulate that 1 or 2 events *might* be accorded the moniker of training. However, you have to admit that the info sources here on this board are somewhat limited in number compared to the general population. Yet, we get continued "sightings" in TX. If these reports are from dubious sources (I don't say they are) then we can dismiss the issue. If not, then we (America) may be in worse shape than even I (in my full blow paranoia) could imagine.


-Got Hope?

-- Greybear (, February 17, 1999.

And, BTW, isn't the oath thats' being reffered to " defend the CONSITUTION..." not the country?

-- Greybear (, February 17, 1999.

Thought of this discussion while watching "JAG" last night. Plotline was Navy SEAL captured by West Virginia "separatists" after his team was inadvertantly involved in a firefight with them. JAG team got involved, along with FBI. TV version of reality: JAG and SEAL team good guys, separatists and FBI bad guys. Could have been worse - at least FBI was shown as having serious "rogue" potential and having essentially used SEALs as pawns to set up attack on separatists. Really irritated at cartoonish portrayal of separatists and fairly heavy anti-second-amendment messages, but expect little better from most media outlets at present.

-- Mac (, February 17, 1999.

Check this out:

I hope I gave sufficient detail to preclude one thinking that I'm trying to deceive anyone. What's the point? ....My life is more than full....

BTW, our ranch does not lay under any flight path..there's one to the east of us running from Bonham, TX to DFW airport (according to pilot friend of mine) but those planes are barely visible above the horizon to the east.

I didn't see anything this morning...went in to work in Dallas much earlier than usual...really didn't want to see anything more at this point. Still working on dealing with yesterday's events.

-- Texan (, February 17, 1999.

Texan, thank you for posting. Please keep us updated on your sightings. Welcome to the YourDoneEres!

-- Leska (, February 17, 1999.


Didn't mean to imply doubt of you report. Only tried to frame the question with all the possible logical alternatives.

Keep us posted. The ol Bear is INTENSELY interested cause he ain't all that far from you geographically.

-- Greybear (, February 17, 1999.

Dear Greybear & Leska,

Thanks for your kind responses. I regret now that I didn't grab the digital camera & take a few pictures at the time but I didn't think of that til later. If it happens again, I'll be better prepared.

Greybear, I've read a few of your postings...just discovered this forum a few days ago. My impression was you either are or were in law enforcement. Is this correct? If you're nearby...are you rural & if so have you seen any lowflying helicopters?

Thank you,


-- Texan (, February 17, 1999.

OK, FWIW, here's what I make of "Texan's" report from North Texas.

10-11 am indicates to me that it was probably a routine training flight. That's just late enough to have allowed the flight crews to have had morning chow (breakfast) at the normal time, attended the pre-flight briefing, pre-flight inspected their aircraft and been in that area, either northbound from Ft Hood in central Texas enroute to Ft Sill in Oklahoma or southbound the other way around, with just about the right arrival time for midday chow, again at the normal time. Training flights are scheduled around normal activities and operational flights are scheduled around mission objectives.

The fact that there were so many (approx. 15) at low altitude in a rural area where no hostile fire would be expected leads me to believe that they were not carrying troops, but probably had only flight crew onboard. If they had troops aboard, for whatever reason, (and there are many legitimate reasons for the Army to move that many soldiers from Ft Hood to Ft Sill or vice versa), they most likely would have been at altitude for purely safety reasons. In flight, altitude is life. It seems obvious to a flier, but the farther away from the ground you are in transit, the safer you are.

The Army practices a rotorcraft flight methodology known as "nap-of-the-earth" flying. This involves flying at extremely low altitudes (sometimes only 2 or 3 feet off the ground!) for reasons of concealment and support of ground troops. Again for safety reasons, this is seldom practiced in populated areas. On the other hand, Army helo pilots are in "deep shit" if they scare a civilian's livestock and damage results ("Texan", the Army will come clean about its flights and will pay you for any damage to livestock or otherwise that they cause). The FAA requires, under ordinary flight conditions, a minimum altitude of 500 feet. "Texan" did not say how low these "birds" were, but I am assuming that they were lower than 500. I could make a better guess if "Texan" had described things such as whether of not they could see the pilot, how much of him they could see, etc.

I am also assuming that the birds were Army, because of the location (no Marine helo units nearby and the Navy or Air Force usually don't fly helos 15 in a group) and because of the type of flight (low altitude) that was observed.

The federal government does have some black helicopters and I have seen some of them. The ones that I have seen were truly black and they all belonged to the Customs service of the INS. The conventional tactical paint job for Army birds, however, is extremely dark green with black insignia and ID markings. Unless you see one of these birds illuminated by direct sunlight from behind you (or in a hangar and up close) it is almost impossible to not see a "black" helicopter. Also, unless you are very, very close, the markings are not visible. At the time and place of this sighting, the sun would have been well up in the sky and Army birds would have almost certainly appeared to be black. Further, with the light at that angle, the markings would have likely been invisible. These birds were painted this way for just these reasons.

I agree that it is unlikely that the DEA was looking for marijuana plants. When they go looking, they don't do it 15 helos at a time no matter what time of the year it is. I also think that it is unlikely that it was the same guys who raided Kingsville. 15 Helos carry a whole lot of troops and would indicate a major assault, not a raid, such as was carried out on Kingsville.

"Texan's" belief that there are no active military bases nearby is an indication of perspective of a non-flier type rather than geographic reality. What seems far away on the ground is actually quite close in terms of military flight (Dallas and El Paso are about 45 minutes apart in an F4 Phantom).

I truly suspect that this was a routine thing, and the only reason that it makes anyone nervous is because of its nearness in time to the Kingsville stunt (That should make people nervous).

-- Hardliner (, February 17, 1999.


Yes the Bear has a history carrying a badge.The degreee of ruralness will have to remain a question. (Remember that Greybear is the resident Paranoid Wacko). As to helicopters, we live near enough to a civilian facility that trains in both fix winged and helicopters that the whop-whop has becom ubiquitious. We don't even notice it anymore. Sorta like living near a train track, you cease to hear the trains after a while. Me thinks though that much more notice will be given in the near future.


Thanks, mucho. I sure hope you're right about their mission. You are definitely right about one thing. Brings to mind when the Bear was much younger that a body grinder got away from him and chewed on his arm for what seemed like 10-15 minutes (more like 1 second in reality) and you bet-you-life that spot was VERY sensitive afterwards.

If feels like we've been ground-on a little in Kingsville.

--Greybear, beware of wild sanders

- Got Gloves?

-- Greybear (, February 17, 1999.

Dear Hardliner,

Thanks for your input!

Some clarifications: A rough estimate of altitude was several utility poles above the ground. Our land slopes into a valley going south, so as they headed north at same altitude above sea level they looked closer to the ground as they left our land. As I described it to my husband, it looked like (if it was an airplane) as if it was descending for a landing north of us at our neighbor's about a 1/4 mile north of us. The helicopters certainly looked a dull, charcoal black...not dark green. This I observed carefully and with an undergraduate degree in art, I do tend to notice colors in detail. It is true that due to the position of the sun at that time in the midmorning was not optimal and if I had taken a picture the color would have been distorted but I could see well enough directly with my eyes. I definitely could not see any crew. It was an large, enclosed helicopter.

I don't know how many total helicopters flew over...I saw 4 at a time in formation but they were several that had flown over previous to the time I looked out window and went on porch to observe. Before that I heard about 3-4 other times helicopters flying over and the resultant concerted reactions from our unusually agitated dogs inside & outside our home.

As far as proximity to other bases, I realize when traveling > mach2, geography is relative. I mention it since a local neighbor whose family has lived in the area since Civil War told me that a long time ago there used to be an USAF training base nearby and sometimes they did training missions. But he said that base is now defunct.

It's comforting to know that the military would recompensate for any damages for livestock. I've ridden on AF bases and handled spooked horses from lowflying aircraft - obviously on base, aircraft have the right of way! But I still don't understand why helicopters have to be dark with no identifying marks flying in civilian zones.

Thanks, Texan

-- Texan (, February 17, 1999.

Yall correct me if I'm out of line here but it seems to me that it would be far more cost effective and public relations friendly for the military to construct some training buildings on their reservations and do their practice raids in house. I know for a fact that Ft. hood and Ft. Polk offer huge acreage with restricted airspace and no civillian structures or population to be endangered by low flying craft. The level of realism could be even greater than what is achieved in a civillian environment as soldiers could be dressed as civvies and role play right in the midst of the exercise.

Looking at it in this context the true reasons for the manner in which these exercises are being conducted becomes readily apparent. First off to instill a large dose of fear of government in the people. Secondly for agents in place to watch the reactions of militia groups so that weapons caches and retreats can be pinpointed. Third, to further de-sensitize the actual soldiers to commiting actions against U.S. citizens. Fourth by monitoring the communications of non-militia affiliated patriots they can identify individual cell groups. Fifth by imposing a major media news blackout on this operation they are able to asses the efficiency of the militia communiications network, and get a realistic time guage of their response.

To sum up I can think of a lot of reasons with sinister connotations why the exercises are being conducted this way, and no good valid reasons.

-- Nikoli Krushev (, February 17, 1999.

One more thing, Nikoli: to guage public reaction.

-- Elbow Grease (, February 17, 1999.


Nice summary. Reminds me of the poster I saw once: "Just because you are parinoid, does not mean that they are not out to get you." Keeping viligant.


-- Merlin Emery (, February 17, 1999.


Have a look at the picture here , and see if that is the type of helo you saw. As you can see, the bird does not look any kind of green. "Charcoal gray" is exactly how it looks to me too, but it is really a very, very dark green. Notice too, that you can't see any markings. If you'll go to this link , you'll find a lot of other photos of this bird, the UH60 "Blackhawk".

Judging from your utility pole report, I'd say that they were somewhere between 100 and 150 feet up, which is about what I'd expect from some guys "hot-dogging it" while getting in some flight hours between Ft Hood and Ft Sill. That's still a guess, but I think a reasonable one, expecially in light of your further details. I also think it possible that there were only 4 helos, which made multiple passes over the same place. This is usual if they were trying to practice a particular formation manuever or maybe they simply saw something that they wanted to look at several times. Also, I can tell you that the maintenance effort to get 15 birds in the air at the same time is massive and just doesn't happen too often. Most of the time, a portion of a squadron's birds are "down" for maintenance and awaiting parts. I've seen 15 at once under combat conditions, but even then, they were not all from the same squadron.

When I was stationed at the Naval Air Station in Dallas, each Christmas the Marine helo squadron there (which has since been deactivated--budget cuts) would offer "rides" to Decatur because there was a guy there who put on a light display that rivaled anything you'll see anywhere. You could see it for 50 miles (from the air)! That squadron flew big helos--you could drive three jeeps inside, end to end--and we used to get lots of calls from Decatur at Christmas time! I also remember that those helos used to stop for fuel at Grayson County airport quite often (not on the way to Decatur, on the way to Ft Sill for gunnery practice).

There have been instances also, of "topless sunbather sightings" which always draw a crowd (so to speak). You don't happen to have a nudist colony around your ranch do you?

Now I don't mean to try to convince anyone that these helos that you saw were anything one way or another, but it is my opinion that the most probable answer is that it was just some Army flight crews getting some hours in on a cross country flight so that they could draw their flight pay. It is entirely possible that they were on a sinister mission of some sort, but only just. I would think that if they were up to no good, that they'd not be "buzzing" ranches low enough to agitate the dogs! I'll also bet that if you call the Army at Ft Hood and complain about them running your cattle that some flight leader will have some trouble sitting down for a while. . .

The guys in Kingsville, however, are an entirely different kettle of fish. I can't justify what they did, and if I knew the reason and it was a legitimate one, I doubt that I'd agree with it even then.

-- Hardliner (, February 17, 1999.

I have lived at Ft.hood,Ft.Polk and Ft. Bliss(El Paso) .They all have training areas that simulate a small community .Buildings ,streets and fake population are all included. I see no reason to train in areas with real citizens.AND ,in twenty years as the wife of a soldier in the U.S.Army,I have never known our military to train in such a manner.

-- Something (Doesn't @dd up .com), February 17, 1999.


You are probably not incorrect with your assesment.

But why would they care about gauging public reaction? After events at Waco and Ruby Ridge and the overwhelming yawn the "public" gave what could possibly upset the public short of full scale live assult on "average" citizens. Even then it's not all that hard to paint a picture of nasty, vile, revolutionaries when you have all the brushes and canvas.

There seems not to have been all that much response outside of us native wackos. Even the Gov gave it a big yawn! (Course for the worst of the wackos that not all that big of a shock).

I really think they don't care all that much about our (the public at large) opinion and were just going about exercizes with the normal disregard we've seen recently.

Now the inculcation-of-lessons angle, that's something else.

-- Greybear, watching the sky

- Got Binoculars?

-- Greybear (, February 17, 1999.

Hardliner, Thanks for the links...I really should have taken a pic or two. After surfing a bit of helicopter pictures I think this is the closest to what I saw :


The helicopters were very large, rectangular, enclosed with no easily observable windows. As far as color, I stick with a true charcoal grey. :-) Concerning the number....I didn't eyewitness more than the 4 helicopters at one it's possible there were flying back & forth over the area. I didn't look outside until the last flyover. Sightseeing...hmmmm...well I think our Texas longhorns are awfully pretty but I know I'm we don't have that many... I can't think of any other attractions....there is something down the road that may be something or other - "A private community" - we're not sure what it is & have never cared enough to investigate - but it's several miles west of us and they were flying straight south to north. The Grayson Co. Airport is miles west of us. These copters were flying pretty much straight north. Texan P.S. If get a chance next time, my camera will be ready!

-- Texan (, February 17, 1999.


I'll start by saying that I don't know why those guys pulled a raid on Kingsville, but when I use my own "thinker" and experience to try to figure it out, I come up with different reasons than you do. I'll get to them later. First, I'd like to give you my perspective on your five reasons.

First you suggest that they may have done it, "to instill a large dose of fear of government in the people."

Although this is a possibility, I don't think so and here's why. What they did seems not (with the exception of an old lady across the street) to have had that effect, nor would I expect it to. With the above noted exception, everyone I read speaking about it was angry, not scared. The raiders' performance in starting two fires accidentally was not exactly awe inspiring either. They set a building on fire trying to torch some jail cell bars! I would suggest that any competent street welder could have done so minus the fire. One of the helos hit a utility pole and started a fire! Nice job, pilot. Now, if they had rounded up 100 citizens or so and confined them to the local high school gym and then said, "Just an exercise folks! Y'all can go home now", they probably would have scared some folks, but then again, maybe it'd just have made them madder. If the instillation of fear was one of their objectives, they sure didn't pick very effective methods and they seem to have failed at achieving it.

Second, you think that maybe they had, "agents in place to watch the reactions of militia groups so that weapons caches and retreats can (could) be pinpointed."

Although this is possible too, I doubt it for the following reasons. The FBI is the part of the government that is charged with figuring out the militia question and they're not fond of giving up their turf or authority to another part. You will note that the FBI has its training facilities on the Marine Corps base at Quantico, Virginia and it is almost a certainty that if they were to pull off an operation like this, that it would have been a Marine Recon raid, not the Army. Also, any reaction of a militia group would also be noted by the populace and the press and would almost certainly be given the same play in the press (such as it is) as the raid itself got.

Third, you suggest that the raid may have been, "to further de-sensitize the actual soldiers to commiting (sic) actions against U.S. citizens."

What makes you think that they have already been so de-sensitized? Then, just what did they do that would have "de-sensitized them further" on the raid? I didn't read about any such actions.

Fourth, you propose that, "by monitoring the communications of non-militia affiliated patriots they can identify individual cell groups."

Again, this is the FBI's job. Also, it supposes that there are such cell groups and that they have a communications network. I have to point out that there is no evidence that I know of that such groups exist and further, that if there were, their possession of a communications scheme and an organization of cells would make them a militia group. Again, possible, but I think unlikely.

Fifth, and related to the fourth reason, you suggest that, "by imposing a major media news blackout on this operation they are able to asses (sic) the efficiency of the militia communiications (sic) network, and get a realistic time guage (sic) of their response."

If this was their intention, they sure screwed it up didn't they? "Harderliner" heard about it on a common AM broadcast station driving down the road. I've already noted that I haven't heard of any militia reaction to gauge. Have you? And I submit that they wouldn't care about the efficiency of such a communications network if they knew enough about it to monitor it. They would either continue to monitor it in order to extract information, or they'd cripple it when they didn't want it to work.

Now I'm not saying that your suggestions are impossible, only that they don't seem very plausible to me. Keep in mind that I'm the one who maintains that "Slick" is another Hitler waiting to happen and that I trust him not at all.

My own conclusions are that the raid was most likely a genuine anti-terrorist training raid, designed specifically to familiarize that specific Army unit with Kingsville, Texas in the event of a genuine terrorist act there. It should be apparent that there are literally millions of young Moslems who would, in a heartbeat, undertake such a mission. Not only have certain of their clerics been exhorting them to do so for years, the USA is currently making war on Iraq and killing Moslems! Hell, if I was an Iraqi, I'd do it too! No matter who the current president is, and without regard to and entirely separate from his real or supposed lust for power, it would be a grave and foolish mistake to discount the hatred that much of the world of Islam has for "The Great Satan".

Of only slightly less likelihood is the possibility that the raid was also intended to intimidate and prepare for conflict with the King Ranch. Each time there is an election in that county, the count always comes out the way that the King ranch wants it to. It has been that way for many years and the local power structure pre-dates the federal government in Texas. I have heard that the King ranch has a veritable army of hired guns, and always has. If there is to be a conflict with this outfit, they'd better bring in someone special! And, FWIW, I'd still bet on the ranch.

-- Hardliner (, February 17, 1999.

hardliner, I already posted my thoughts on King Ranch's private security force (snicker) on another thread. If you missed it my contention there was that the whole point of this exercise was probably to get some of these forces to fire on the surprise raiders and instigate a major incident such as Waco. I can see the headlines now "MILITIA GROUP DOWNS MILITARY HELICOPTER" or "GUN BATTLE ERUPTS BETWEEN MILITIA AND MILITARY". the government has been pushing these groups for a couple of years now really hard, trying to provoke a response, and if one is not soon forthcomeing they will stage one.

The Lines between military intelligence, FBI, ATF, NSA, and CIA has become increasingly fuzzy over the past few years, as military asets are routinely used in drug interdiction efforts and anti terrorism operations. I have no problem at all envisioning the fact of interagency cooperation on a project of this type. If you think the militia groups have not organized to the point of developing "cells" you need to spend a little time browsing Frugal Squirrell's patriot forum. I am not a militia member but a few of my friends and I have what could loosely be termed a cell in that we share information, have a rural last- ditch retreat, and do not share our plans or rescources with anyone we are not intimately familiar with. This is not uncommon at all. I know of a multitude of other unorganized groups such as ours, which are composed of people aware of Clinton's Hitleristic qualities and are preparing for a day when they will have no choice but to fight or die.

-- Nikoli Krushev (, February 17, 1999.

When fired upon, the residents should fire back. Good luck Kingsville.

-- Bill (, February 17, 1999.

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