A follow-up to all the discussion generated by Nikoli's post yesterday about "FEMA Sealing Off Texas." The story of the operations in Kingsville and Port Aransas appears in today's Corpus Christi Caller Times under the headline "Army training spurs conspiracy fears."

The URL is http://www.caller.com/autoconv/newslocal99/newslocal400.html

Interesting reading. The lead paragraph: "A training assault on abandoned buildings in Kingsville by Army Special Forces troops last week has resulted in an alarm on the Internet by those concerned about an armed government takeover."

While Corpus Christi city officials seemed happy to have the troops around, others weren't, including Kleberg County commissioners (Kingsville) who voted unanimously to write a letter to officials with Army Special Forces asking them to inform county officials and the public in advance if they perform another exercise. An Army spokesman said the Special Forces teams were "practicing techniques for urban warfare." And that's the scary part, as far as I'm concerned. By the way, the Caller Times made the exercise and the public's reaction to it the subject of a call-in forum today. Checking the web page tomorrow should be interesting as the results are published.

-- Vic (Roadrunner@compliant.com), February 16, 1999

Answers

Yup.......obviously it was an exercise. I knew that ages ago but wanted to see how much conspiracy freaks would ramble on before they ran out of breath.......

Typical B.S. that goes on here........someone posts some outrageous conspirational thread and it's hook, line and sinker time for all the conspiracy theory extremists. Occassionally one of them says something like 'Let's not get totally carried away because it hasn't been confirmed yet' but that's usually ignored in favour of a good government bashing exercise.

Then a day or two later, the thread fizzles out without any of the wackos retracting their outrageous statements.

A few days later, someone else starts it all over again.......

Of course, ironically, if the US was ever attacked by a foreign country, the same whiners would be the very first people to cry out for the government to save their sorry asses.

-- Craig (craig@ccinet.ab.ca), February 16, 1999.

"Of course, ironically, if the US was ever attacked by a foreign country, the same whiners would be the very first people to cry out for the government to save their sorry asses. "

Craig, do you consider Whiners to be in the same category as Protesters?

Methinks thee doth deride too much.

-- Lisa (lisa@lkjh.skjds), February 16, 1999.

Craig,

Did you even read the thread? Go take a look at it. "Hook, line and sinker"? Not even close. The vast majority of posts ridiculed the idea, and a couple linked places to go for AP wires etc. Who bought into it and railed on about the government?

Looks like it's a case of you wanting to revise the past to make your point.

-- nice try (you@moron..), February 16, 1999.

Uhhh, sure Craig. The military has a long history of conducting live- fire excercises in urban cities and towns, blowing them to smithereens to practice hunting "terrorists".

They also have historically used population centers for training because they have no facilities in which to practice these skills.

Craig, you're an idiot.

Methinks you need to get your lips off the nipple of government. You like it too much.

-- INVAR (gundark@aol.com), February 16, 1999.

Always check and verify, Craig.

Standard research and intelligence gathering practice. And, BTW, its best not to assume. You know what that stands for.

Thanks for the continuing story links, Vic. -- Diane

http://www.caller.com/autoconv/newslocal99/ newslocal400.html

See also ...

FEMA sealing off Texas?

http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id= 000V7t

-- Diane J. Squire (sacredspaces@yahoo.com), February 16, 1999.

Craig, your banal prattle about "if our country were invaded..." is just a hoary straw man, set up to me dismantled by weak-minded solipsists. What country do you imagine invading? Ghana? Canada? Hell, we're the most heavily armed nation in the world, NOT counting our military. The only government with designs on our weapons is...why, it's OUR government! How about that! What a coincidence! And all to save the children; alway the children. This from a government that can't even find the moxy to ban partial birth abortion, and whose First Couplet prance around the world calling for more and more abortion. Last time I checked abortion was a surgical technique intended to PREVENT a child from being born. Next time you hear some parrot babbling about banning firearms to protect children, ask them if they're willing to ban abortion, which prevents/kills/terminates/thwarts/stops/negatively impacts (choose one) 1.5 MILLION children from being born every year. Abortion is a conspiracy worthy of Satan himself. Moloch redivivus. As Mother Theresa said, "the fruit of abortion is nuclear war."

-- Spidey (in@jam.com), February 16, 1999.

Spidey:

[paraphrased] "The fruit of abortion is Nuclear War"...Mother Theresa

What?

-- Lisa (hmm?@???.???), February 16, 1999.

Lisa........No I don't consider protesters to be whiners at all.

It comes down to what you are protesting doesn't it. Protesting abuse of power makes sense. I have no problem with protesters. My derision is over those who simply criticize every bloody thing the government or army choose to do. Training exercises are necessary.

But most of all the problem are the fringe group who see everything that happens as part of a conspiracy. Granted, that is only a small percentage of the regulars posters to this newsgroup, but they certainly are vocal. Shoot, if some kid sets up a lemonade stand across the street from their house they figure it's some fed conspiracy to invade their privacy......or perhaps the kids real motive is to lure them closer so he can implant a chip in their forehead........

-- Craig (craig@ccinet.ab.ca), February 16, 1999.

Spidey........pay attention please.

I do not, nor ever have, supported the abolition of firearms. As a matter of fact I firmly believe in the right to bear arms.

My only beef if with those that take every event that happens, and twist it around to fit in with their global conspiracy theories.

-- Craig (craig@ccinet.ab.ca), February 16, 1999.

INVAR.......

It doesn't matter how heavily armed the country is. Can you not grasp for one moment that perhaps the government truly are concerned about the potential for terrorists to wreak havoc and would like to be as prepared as possible? Yes, that does not preclude that someone somewhere may have ulterior motives, however the prime reason for preparation is simply that, preparation.

Surely you are well researched on the severity of problems that could occur if a terrorist were to let loose with chemical, biological or nuclear weapons.

And where did this crap about abortion suddenly come from.....I've never mentioned that topic ever...

Seems to me your problem is that you perceive almost everything in a polarized manner. Whatever you believe is white and whatever anyone else believes is black. You live in a fantasy world of Spy vs. Spy, Extreme right wing vs. extreme left wing.

There is a balance in life you know. You may do well trying to find just a little......

-- Craig (craig@ccinet.ab.ca), February 16, 1999.

You're still an idiot Craig.

First, I didn't even mention abortion in my post, so that's a moot point altogether.

To address your points:

Why is this administration ALL OF A SUDDEN concerned about terrorist attacks either bio or chem.? They weren't too concerned about it before. Clinton cut the defense budget for 5 of his 6 years in office. Our military is at the lowest level of preparedness since the Civil War!!!!! (Pentagon assesment from 9/19/98).

The danger from terrorist attack HAS ALWAYS BEEN THERE, Hell, Clinton exaccerbated the problem!!! (can you say missle technology to China for campaign contributions??) We live in a dangerous world of nations that live for nothing but the extermination of freedom and this nation that this administration conveniently ignored for political expedience until now. But my how convenient for Clinton to forgo beefing up the military to combat such a threat during his first term and a half.

So cut the crap. Whatever bio/chemical/terrorist threat we face is due to Clinton's negligence on the matter for years (or for you conspiracy lovers: his complicitness in the matter). Any attack we face is the result of the blatant disregard to the threats posed these past six years - and complacent slumber the American people are in.

The government DOES NOT HAVE OUR BEST INTERESTS IN MIND. Their interest is in self-preservation and the consolidation of power. If they were concerned about us "little people in flyover country", we'd be hearing stern pleas of preparation for Y2K. But it doesn't serve their political purposes - - - Yet.

Your preparation argument is sophmoric at best. Secret live-fire training excercises in urban combat with local law enforcement in populated towns all over the country portend deployment operations ala the excercises conducted during WWII - - NOT Preparation!!

But as I stated once before Craig. Americans have a BIRTHRIGHT to distrust our government, and to be suspicious ALWAYS. You obviously never read the Federalist Papers, or the writings of the Founders that laid the bedrock of this nation's structure. Freedom must always be guarded with the utmost vigilance. Giving that sole authority over to the government will ensure our eventual enslavement, as the tax code aptly proves.

As far as your infantile rant about my "extreme" views of black and white - - YOU ARE THE ONE LIVING IN FANTASYLAND! This enlightened "Grey area" crap is bullpuckey!!! There ARE absolutes Craig: Right and Wrong. Good and Evil. Life and Death.

God States the following unequivocally: "I set before you life and death. Therefore choose life, that you and your decendants may live."

Cut and dried. Life or death. There are absolutes in this world whether you want to believe it or not. There is freedom. There is slavery. There is nothing in-between.

If balance as you define it means to trust government and our security blindly, and to accept the fact there are multiple "truths" in myriad belief systems to equate functioning government - you are enslaved to an ideology that will eventually destroy all our freedoms. All done in exchange for security.

So much for rugged individualism and patriotism.

To all our peril.

-- INVAR (gundark@aol.com), February 16, 1999.

This thread got me off on another idea.Do you think they may want to actually try to seal the border if Mexico goes down? Gives new meaning to "Run for the Border".We can't keep it sealed now but what if millions instead of only hundreds are running from Mexico to Texas?

-- sue (deco100@aol.com), February 16, 1999.

Sue,

How about if WE go down? Do you still think that we would have an immigration problem?

IMO, Y2K will make immigration unattractive in the extreme to everyone.

I suspect that the small mountain villages in rural Mexico that don't have electricity or transportation infrastructures NOW, will become better places to live than large cities, whichever country they might be in.

But, to answer your original question, I think you've answered it yourself when you said, "We can't keep it sealed now. . ." There's a lot more likely going to be LESS police, national guard, military, etc. available for "border duty" after Y2K than now, so doesn't it seem like they'll have less chance of closing the border?

-- Hardliner (searcher@internet.com), February 16, 1999.

Invar, well said.Nothing more could be added. Craig, think before you type,please. Sue, who's to say our government doesn't want to keep Americans from fleeing into Mexico? What makes us think we'll be better off than anyone else? Americans are so incredibly self absorbed and puffed up.

-- thinking for myself (martial@law.com), February 16, 1999.

Thanks for my morning chuckle INVAR.......

The fruit of the spirit is self-control, peace, joy, love etc....

Yet you can't even write a few sentences without calling me an idiot....simply for providing an alternative point of view

Most 'fundies' are angry people. Thank you for proving my point.

-- Craig (craig@ccinet.ab.ca), February 16, 1999.

Great point Sue. Texas is a great point to enter the country easily with lots of weapons and little resistance. Is there a better area to infiltrate from that through Mexico where you can bribe officials and police? It's a perfect point to launch an invasion, no matter how small in size an invasion is an invasion, especially when the objective is to promote terror.

Too bad people decided to rail on Craig when he brings what is for me a very valid point and a real concern.

I've always felt that domestic terrorism in the form of fringe groups would utilize the opportunity Y2k presents to further their own agenda is the most likely trouble.

That isn't conspiracy, just common sense.

What would you like the military to do if this happened? Simply let Corpus Christi fall? What city falls after that?

Mike ======================================================================

-- Michael Taylor (mtdesign3@aol.com), February 16, 1999.

Seems everyone forgot about the 3000 UN troops on our soil going through the same exercised as Delta Force. Why are they here?

-- Paladin (HaveGun@WillTravel.com), February 16, 1999.

Why Texas? After reading the Petrochemical Warnings thread, then Texas Exercises thread, think maybe they're doing Texas because they foresee potential oil/fuel disasters there? Border-crossing terrorists, underlying pumping pipe grid explosions, etc? Somebody help me out with the geography. How much threat do Gulf Hurricanes present the oil system? What other hazard does Texas present?

xxxxxxx xxxxxxx xxxxxxx

-- Leska (allaha@earthlink.net), February 16, 1999.

I couldn't have said it better myself. GO INVAR

May GODS Will be Done

Mike

-- flierdude (mkessler0101@sprynet.com), February 16, 1999.

Leska, don't forget the Houston Ship Channel..... NASA... George Bush, Sr...... and Jr., for that matter.... plus Texas declined to vote for Clinton in both elections!

-- Lisa (lisa@work.now), February 16, 1999.

INVAR,

"So we have the shape and the response capability. The third pillar of our strategy is the need to prepare for the future. We must invest in the new generation of weapons and technology if we are going to maintain our ability to shape and respond to world events in the next century. We must recruit and we have to retain the highest quality personnel and provide them with the quality of life they deserve. That is why President Clinton has asked Congress to begin the first long-term, sustained increase in military spending in some fifteen years."

Remarks as Delivered to the Illinois General Assembly Secretary of Defense William S. Cohen Springfield, Illinois Thursday, January 28, 1999

Seems to me that congress has been ruled by republicans since Clinton has been in office, and they're quick to deplore his requests for any increase in spending. Read the whole article. And be careful when using the word idiot.

-- Chris (catsy@pond.com), February 16, 1999.

Leska,

Houston is inland enough that hurricanes aren't a real problem. That whole area down there is a gigantic petrochemical collection that, if crippled, would severely impact supplies to the rest of the country. The industry is a big player all the way from Houston to Port Arthur and Orange and on down the coast to (surprise) Corpus Christi. As for border crossings, Houston is several hundred miles from Brownsville and the Mexican border.

-- Vic (Roadrunner@compliant.com), February 16, 1999.

Thanks, Lisa & Vic. So, if foreign oil imports are impeded by Y2K (enough evidence in that this will happen, plus the ships not being allowed to port), and the USA is an oil-addicted nation, Texas becomes crucial. Once again, I wonder how effective all the military efforts will be if the military itself and the oil companies also are not Y2K compliant. It still seems the importance of fixing the code should be publicly acknowledged. The USA govt needs to officially stop the snicker doodles and start sounding calm sensible preparation. There are plenty of good alternatives to the hoot-cackles. To worry about alarm, panic & hysteria is missing the reality that most ppl are numbed asleep and won't look at preparation even if begged to by all the alphabet agencies at their very door. The ostrich-heads only pull their necks out of the comfy-sands to take a sip of denial, then back to annighhill they slip.

xxxxxxx xxxxxxx xxxxxxx xxxxxxx xxxxxxx

-- Leska (allaha@earthlink.net), February 16, 1999.

Chris - with all due respect sir, the President sets the agenda for the nation, using the Bully Pulpit for presenting his plans to the American People to persuade their reresenatives to vote for these measures. Also, can you say VETO?

Many attempts these last 5 years by the Armed Services Committee to get defense spending up, either never made it out of committee due to Democrat opposition, or the votes to override an assured Presidential veto were not available (you need 2/3) and few Democrats would support these measures. Most of the defense appropriations were tabled by the House leadership to get a budget deal with this president (remember the government shutdown in '95??). Each year the Clinton Budget HE submits to congress contained drastic defense cuts to appropriate funds for his domestic agendas. So stuff the blaming of the Republicans on the Military appropriations. You don't know what you're talking about. The blame remains square on this president and the Democrats.

Republicans may have controlled congress, but they didn't have the votes to override a veto. Besides the fact the media would have poo- pooed the increases as "foolish" in the wake of the cold war. Historically the modern media has always derrided the military.

I also deeply disbelieve ANYTHING this administration or William Cohen says. They are all supporters of a Liar. They re-told the lies. They never apologized for them either. We can't believe anything these people say. Their entire credibility is lost.

And Craig....

Fruits of the Spirit do not include standing by silent in the face of evil and ignorance. "Cry aloud, spare not. Lift your voice like a trumpet and declare the sin of My people".

God calls things what they are. He called Satan: a Deceiver, the father of lies. The Pharisees: hypocrites etc. etc.

I call you what you are: an idiot.

Yes I'm angry. I don't sit by and watch freedom slip by without shouting at you slumbering sheep.

-- INVAR (gundark@aol.com), February 16, 1999.

I think some of us occasionally lose sight of the fact that a 9 or 10 on our scale means a government that has collapsed and is incapable of running any black operations. The military is just as dependent--if not more so--on computers and technology as any business or industry. If it goes Milne or Infomagic, what's the desertion rate going to be as soldiers and sailors and marines and fliers head home to help take care of their families? If things get really, really bad, I don't think we'll have to worry about the federal government... and that's not all bad.

-- Vic (Roadrunner@compliant.com), February 16, 1999.

Hardliner, maybe its the reverse flow of Americans getting out and going to Mexico they want to stop?

Mike, What I would like the military TO DO is learn good manners and treat citizens with respect. Afterall, its We The People who ultimately contribute to their paychecks and defense spending dollars. (You must admit they need to budget better ... $ 7,000 toilets? Come on).

The military also has an out-dated MINDSET for secrecy in everything. Yes, there are nasty terrorists. Yes, the .mil types need to practice. BUT NOT in small urban towns where they use live ammo, burn buildings and scare little old ladies sitting outside watching the uniformed Delta Force disgorge from black helicopters.

Very bad publicity move, IMHO. Especially in a time when they need our endorsements.

If Id had a chance to meet William Cohen today, hed sport a bruised shin, Id slap his knuckles with a ruler and put him in the corner wearing a dunce cap.

The military and other alphabet agencies need to learn who the bad guys are, and are not. But then discernment may not be one of their strong suits.

At any rate, as stated, the exercises probably have a lot to do with oil.

Got fuel, post Y2K?

Diane

-- Diane J. Squire (sacredspaces@yahoo.com), February 16, 1999.

INVAR, ditto you anger.

As to all the Mexicans. The Mexican joke I posted earlier not withstanding, we in Texas KNOW that our culture has been seriously and favorably influenced by the Mexican culture and the many fine Texans-of-Mexican extraction (hate those politically correct terms). We in particular know and honor of the valor of our Mexican neighbors who died DEFENDING the Alamo. For most all of us, you are a TEXAN first and everything else later and we don't give a dam what color your are.

With all that said to try to head off the self-righteous equalizers in the crowd, the topic of citizens from the nation of Mexice have and contine to be discussed. If someone has a cogent theory of WHY Mexico would invade Texas as an organized military venture, I would like to hear it. Forget the Take-Texas-Back bunch. I'm talking about serious military plans.

For some of you who may not be familar with intimate details of TX history, the idea of Mexican nationals crossing the border with mischief on their minds is not a new idea. We've been there. It's still in our "racial" memory and even more alive for some of us. My Grandfather and Great Grandfather were both part time volunteers in the Texas Rangers who dealt with these festivities.

If we are to find something to worry about on the armed invasion front we need not look south. When I get that urge to look around for danger I tend to look north and east in the general direction of DC.

One only needs glance ocassionally and Voilla! the come at night in black choppers.

And then some dufe trys to tell me "It's OK, they are JUST practicing". Hell, I already knew that. We disagree on what they are practicing to do. That seems so obvious as to strain credulity to question it. If they are practicing for URBAN terrorists then what the hell are they doing in KINGSVILLE TX. It would be pretty hard to convienc the ol Bear that the spooks don't have plenty of "play grounds" to practive in. What I have had a lot of respect for in the past is moving closer to looking like Federal ninjas.

You turn, Chris, lets hear some more drivel, don't expect a reply from the ol Bear. I won't waste my time.

-- Greybear, who appologizes, sorta, for any bad language

- Got a compass?

ps, this relates to Y2K because it is a VERY large part of prep thinking here south of the Red.

-- Greybear (greybear@home.com), February 16, 1999.

Diane,

I'd be surprised if anyone tried to keep Americans out of Mexico except the Mexicans. I've only been two places on the face of this earth where Americans weren't persona non grata and Mexico wasn't one of them. "Gringos" are particularly unwelcome in Mexico without their "greenbacks" and are only tolerated with them. Harderliner has family in Mexico and Marines have been a "special case" ever since some 14 year old military cadets gave the Corps a real bloody nose at "The Halls of Montezuma" so I've seen things from a slightly different perspective but I don't think such a flight is in the cards.

-- Hardliner (searcher@internet.com), February 16, 1999.

If I wanted to practice military exercises, I would practice at camp, where I could get most bang for the buck, so to speak. Drills could be done almost to perfection on similar type settings as residential buildings, (Like the ATF did at Fort Hood, just before they raided and then allowed the Davidians to be murdered.) It seems pointless to "practice" on a town that you may or may not see again. However, if I wanted to send a message to a nation facing the threat of severe disruptions in infrastructure, what better way, than to "drop in". Of course, this is only a a a guessing game. We'll just have to wait and see.

-- KoFE (overhere@Phils.grill), February 16, 1999.

If enough americans invade what remains of mexico we can not only declare it the 51st state but we can steal all their rice and beans!

-- whacko (whacko@racistpig.com), February 16, 1999.

You go to a town that you HAVE NOT seen before to practice teh following:

Terrain identification, planning and preparation.

Approach Planning, Entry and Egress.

All of the usual planning skills (using sand tables, computer generated maps, etc.)

And the conversion of the plans in the little details to actions, from talk/print to steps and muscle power.

You also take it to a town you might not see again, but don't bet on it, to test the ability to improvise when you get to the area and things have changed since the satelite pass this morning.

Sure, you get a nice clean practice on base, but everyone is familiar with the buildings, the clearances between buildings, etc. Nothing can compare to the consternation of turning the corner and finding the fire-escape down, and your Hummer suddenly doesn't fit. Or the chimney doesn't conform to code, and now the alley isn't the legal minimum, and no-one thought to actually optically measure the choke point. Can ruin your whole day. Go ask Dick Marcinko and his Team Six grads. But, make sure you get him when he's NOT spinning tales.

Chuck, who hasn't been there for the bullets but HAS been similar places in some cities, for the bleeding.

-- Chuck, night driver (rienzoo@en.com), February 16, 1999.

What is this with Mr. Chris lately? An idiot troll calls me "mr. catsy" then 3 more old timers follow with mr. Chris? Is it perhaps that I sound too outspoken "for a woman"? I AM outspoken on the internet, and not ashamed of it. And I won't let myself be bullied either. I respond in same manner as to who I reply.

INVAR, I like a good debate/arguement, but it's masochistic for me, moderate in my political views with no affiliations, to try to debate with extremists and paranoid/deluded guys like you, spidey, E. and others. I've had my fill for the day.

Greybear, glad you won't respond , because your own drivel don't jive with mine either. Someone who can't see neccessities for military exercises in a military base area such as Kingsville can only talk drivel to me. The live amos is another matter that should not be lumped with military excercises in a small town with a military base.

-- Chris (catsy@pond.com), February 16, 1999.

Here's another Texan's two cents worth. You are exactly right, Greybear. I don't look south; I look the same direction you do. Worries about Mexicans streaming across the border in the event of meltdown don't make sense. Why leave your home to travel to a strange land where conditions are no better? I rather expect the migration to go the other way, as Mexicans living in Texas, New Mexico, Arizona and California try to head home if there is a collapse. Simply stated, I am much more fearful of the current administration and any number of gutless politicians than I am of an invasion by Mexico.

-- Vic (Roadrunner@compliant.com), February 16, 1999.

Gotta go with Hardliner on this.

Not sure what my .02 cents are worth but if there is gonna be American flight to avoid the chaos I think it would be northward into Canada. Although, those beaches of Mexico and the Yucatan [sp?] do look inviting during the winter, don't they?

Diane, I'm not saying the military hasn't made mistakes. They may well tend to prepare in a little heavy handed manner and ruffle feathers. Unfortunately, the alternative might be to have them be ill prepared to deal with a crisis and I personally wouldn't want that.

Mike ============================================================

-- Michael Taylor (mtdesign3@aol.com), February 16, 1999.