Can Somebody Explain Why The Army Is Trying To Intimidate American Citizens??? THIS DOES NOT BODE WELL...greenspun.com : LUSENET : TimeBomb 2000 (Y2000) : One Thread
Army's Delta Force Assaults Facility In San Antonio Texas
By Sig Christenson and Jennifer Walsh Express-News Staff Writers www.expressnews.com
The Army's Delta Force anti-terrorist team struck the old Brooke Army Medical Center building Thursday night.
The roar of helicopters and the crackle of small arms fire echoed into nearby neighborhoods.
Eight helicopters swept over the vacant BAMC. Sniper teams surrounded the seven-story building while other commandoes worked through rooms and corridors with flashlights during a mock operation to recover classified equipment.
The operation dazzled residents of nearby Terrell Hills. With every loud boom, Patricia Krichner, 18, hugged her sister.
"Those are the guys that are fighting for us," Sonya Krichner, 14, said, punching her fist in the air.
The raid began with two small helicopters flying in from the southeast. Seconds later, six larger UH-60 Black Hawk helicopters buzzed low over a nearby parade ground.
Suddenly, a helicopter cut into the building's light and seemed to almost vertically scale the wall.
"Woah," neighborhood resident Kent Ely said, tilting backward as he watched through binoculars.
The copters flew so slowly and low that onlookers could see the faces of crew members, their legs dangling outside the craft.
Flashes of yellow light, followed seconds later by the sounds of muffled explosions, could be seen and heard as commandoes rappelled to the roof.
The Fort Sam assault followed a mock hostage rescue Wednesday night at the abandoned Nueces County Courthouse in downtown Corpus Christi and caps a training exercise dubbed "Last Dance."
Corpus Christi City Manager David Garcia said the unit was identified as Delta Force members during planning discussions six months ago that led to the involvement of the police SWAT team.
Details about the Alamo City exercise and others like it weren't revealed by the U.S. Army Special Operations Command in Fort Bragg, N.C., and officials wouldn't say if Delta Force was involved.
But Special Operations Command spokesman Walt Sokalski assured San Antonians the soldiers would conduct a safe exercise.
"It's always safe," he said.
Police and Fort Sam officials cautioned news media and onlookers not to use strobe lights or flashes, which can temporarily blind those wearing night vision goggles.
"We anticipated about 30 minutes," said Fort Sam spokesman Phil Reidinger. "It lasted 55. But that's OK. They got some good training, which is what we wanted to do for them."
Several streets were closed during the exercise, including Harry Wurzbach Highway.
Through about half the assault, flashes of light and explosions inside the building could be seen.
A command and control helicopter hovered high above the parade ground throughout the drill.
"They told us there would be explosives and helicopters and it would last about 45 minutes," said Ely, 23, whose house is located along the gate of Fort Sam Houston. "I figured I'd see a little excitement, like what war is like."
Cars pulled over and residents came out of their homes when they heard and felt vibrations from the explosions and saw TV news crews along Burr Road, the thoroughfare bordering the northwest edge of the post. The crowd of about 30 was quiet as they watched.
"This is creepy because it could really be happening right in my back door," said Deborah Center, who lives five blocks away.
Patricia Krichner was arriving at her home on Burr Road, unaware of any warnings when she heard the loud explosions.
"It scared me," she said. "It's not something you see every day, and hey, we've got live action right outside of our house."
Every glimpse of a copter drew excited yelps from the crowd.
At the end of the mission, hidden helicopters were revealed as the choppers turned on their navigation lights.
"There he was on the ground the whole time right underneath that tree," Center said of a helicopter she could hear but not see.
Another Mock US Army Assault - This Time In Corpus Christy 2-19-99
By Novelda Sommers And James A Suydam Staff Writers ) 1999 Corpus Christi Caller Times A Scripps Howard newspaper. Allrights reserved.
Army Special Forces troops took the Old Nueces County Courthouse by storm Wednesday night in a mock-hostage rescue of an ambassador from one of the jail cells. The crack of gunfire and the low, loud boom of grenade explosions could be heard across the city. "All of a sudden, we saw cops blocking the streets and we heard gunshots," said Conrad DeLaPaz, 19, who pulled his minivan over and parked to watch the maneuvers. DeLaPaz said he was at first frightened by what appeared to be an assault on the city. The exercise by the Army Special Operations Command from Fort Bragg was the last in a series performed in the Corpus Christi area, Police Chief Pete Alvarez said.
"It was really a neat exercise, something we'll probably never see again in Corpus Christi," Alvarez said. The soldiers' mission was to rescue an ambassador being held hostage by enemy forces, Alvarez said. In the process, they set up snipers outside the building whose mission was to kill guards, allowing soldiers access. The sharp crack of gunfire seemed to signal the beginning of the exercise. An instant later, several black helicopters without lights landed and dropped off soldiers. The soldiers used grenades and explosives to blow open doors, Alvarez said. A helicopter also landed on the Mann Building. The soldiers had to take out more than 60 bad guys - some real men, some plywood cutouts -in and around the courthouse before extracting the ambassador from the jail cell. They reached the hostage in about 10 minutes and finished the operation in about 25 minutes, he said.
'An awesome display'
Mayor Loyd Neal, City Councilmen Ed Martin and John Longoria and City Councilwoman Melody Cooper witnessed the exercises from the driveway of Fire Station No. 1, just across the street from the courthouse. "It was an awesome display; those helicopter pilots were fantastic," said Neal, a former Airborne Ranger with 30 years of military service. One helicopter hovered inches above a crane at the worksite for the new federal courthouse, dropping off two snipers. The helicopter came back later in the exercise to pluck the men from the top of the crane. Two of the choppers landed on the roof of the courthouse. The others landed around the courthouse square. A large Blackhawk helicopter then settled in just to the north of the courthouse. "The pilot of that Blackhawk had more than 5,000 hours of flight time in that helicopters," said Neal, who had been briefed about the drill by Sam Joseph, an operations leader from Fort Bragg. "I've never seen anything as precise as what that guy was able to do under those conditions in the dark like that."
Joseph said the urban warfare training exercise in Corpus Christi was one of the smoothest ever. "The cooperation from guys like your police chief was just fantastic," he said. "We really appreciate it. He's a hell of a guy." On Tuesday, Army representatives briefed the council on the operations and addressed concerns about citizen safety related to the exercises. During the exercises, helicopters have been seen swooping low over residential areas in Annaville, Kingsville and Port Aransas. The soldiers, wearing black face masks and night-vision goggles, use explosives and sometimes fire live rounds during the exercises, the soldiers said. In Kingsville on Feb. 8, explosions and rifle fire startled nearby residents, and the attack caused a fire that gutted an abandoned police building and blew windows out of another building nearby. Army officials have said that 50 to 60 soldiers were involved with the two-week exercise. The Army Special Operations Command in Fort Bragg had received permission from the city for the exercises. The unit has encountered problems in other cities where the times and locations of the operations were widely known, Joseph has said. In one case, he said, 200 people crowded onto the roof of an abandoned factory to watch the operation, threatening to collapse the roof and slowing the unit's vehicles. Dusty Durrill, owner of the company that owns the old courthouse, said he was approached by Army officials about six months ago. Durrill said he didn't receive any compensation for the exercise, but that Army officials agreed to pay for any damage.
Traffic was shut off on the I-37 overpass going toward Portland from 7:45 to 8 p.m. and again from 8:20 to 8:30 p.m. Traffic leaving Portland could enter Corpus Christi. The Harbor Bridge walkway also was closed. "We've had 10 times worse traffic jams during a major car accident," said Lt. Ken Ersland of the Corpus Christi Police Department. "Closing off the highway caused a minimal amount of inconvenience to the residents." Army officials asked for road closures so the helicopters wouldn't distract motorists or send debris onto cars, Ersland said. "The whole thing went off like clockwork, and I'm a Marine and I don't usually praise the Army," he said.
______________ Staff writer Stephanie L. Jordan contributed to this report. Staff writers Novelda Sommers and James A. Suydam can be reached at 886-3683 or by e-mail at firstname.lastname@example.org or email@example.com
Post your comments on this story in our forums.
) 1999 Corpus Christi Caller Times, a Scripps Howard newspaper. All rights reserved.
Army Said Lying About Ammo Used In Kingsville Raid
By David M. Bresnahan ) 1999 WorldNetDaily.com 2-19-99
The Army claim that only training ammunition was used in a recent mock raid on a small Texas town is a deliberate lie, according to other Army sources and an investigator.
Army Special Operations Command at Fort Bragg, North Carolina, has con- firmed that elite Night Stalkers and Delta Force troops were involved in a training exercise, code named Last Dance. Walt Sokalski confirmed that the operation began Feb. 8 in Kingsville, Texas, and will continue in the area until February 20.
He also confirmed that live ammunition and explosives were used in the middle of a populated area with no advance warning to residents. Sokalski in- sisted that every possible safety precaution was taken, including the use of training munitions and special stray bullet "traps."
He told WorldNetDaily that full-powered ammunition and explosives are never used in areas where civilians are located. The "simunition" is less powerful and uses plastic bullets that can only travel 100 yards. Such bullets are not considered lethal.
Residents of Kingsville reported hearing machine-gun fire and explosions lasting two hours when the Night Stalkers arrived in their little town unannounced. Many suffered sufficient fear over the incident to seek medical treatment, and some are talking to lawyers about possible legal action.
County commissioners ordered the county judge to send a letter to the city council and to the Army to protest the attack on their town and the fact that they were not informed.
Night Stalkers are some of the best pilots in the world. They are expert at flying high speed helicopters at low altitudes. They delivered another elite group, the Delta Force to the site in Kingsville. They arrived in a hail of bullets and explosions that rocked the town and scared some residents nearly to death. Residents of a retirement home across the street were reported to be on the floor under their beds thinking the world was coming to an end.
WorldNetDaily sent Alex Jones, an Austin talk show host, to Kingsville to inspect the damage caused to two buildings used in the dramatic attack. He reported finding brass shells from spent .308 ammunition, used shotgun shells marked "HATTON Pattern Solid," extensive blast damage from grenades, multiple fires in different parts of the building, bullet holes in the floor and walls and all the windows of the building blown out completely.
"That doesn't sound like fake stuff to me," Jones responded when he was asked if he agreed with Sokalski's statement that less-powerful training bullets were used.
An active-duty Army captain who asked that his name be withheld contacted WorldNetDaily after reading Sokalski's claim. He has many years of experience and is concerned about the nature of the exercise. He knows what to look for to determine if training munitions were used.
"Simunition and plastic bullets do not make holes. Only live rounds do. I saw the picture of the discharged shotgun shell which may have been used for entry," Jones told WorldNetDaily. He was impressed that evidence was obtained before the scene was cleaned up.
Cleaning crews were actually on site at the time Jones arrived to take pictures and gather evidence. Both buildings are now cleaned up, the evidence has been removed, and they are all boarded up with plywood.
"Practice grenades (grenade simulators) are made of paper and look similar to a very thick toilet paper tube with clear plastic on each end. They do not function the same as a grenade (they don't cause damage when they explode). Their purpose is only to make noise. They leave paper residue that is easy to find," explained Smith.
"We didn't see anything like that," said Jones when told about the practice grenades.
"What you were told by the PA (Sokalski) isn't necessarily true," the captain charged. "Simunitions were not used. They never use that. It's a good thing your guy collected the brass because I'm sure there's none to be found now.
"Live rounds are used, and that's just the way they train. Also, my thoughts on that .308 round. Most entry teams don't use that as a primary weapon, however depending on what kind of air support was available you may have had mini-guns firing (from the helicopters)."
Numerous other military officers and former officers also contacted WorldNetDaily about the claim that training ammunition was used. They all stated that it was obvious that Sokalski was either uninformed or deliberately misrepresenting the facts.
"They really think we're so stupid that we can't figure this out," said Jeff Norgrove, a former Night Stalker. He said that most Night Stalkers and Delta Force members are young and unaware of what is really going on.
"They just do what they're told. It's exciting, and the pay is very good. They get paid much more than anyone else, and they have a great time," he told WorldNetDaily.
Norgrove said that a very select group of young men are recruited for these two elite groups. They receive intensive training, and are considered the very best there is. He said that he is concerned about the urban assault training that is taking place.
"These aren't really military exercises," remarked the captain. "What they are is SWAT training. The Army will never admit that to you, but that's what it is."
The exercise is always conducted in the dark of night. The helicopters are painted dark with a special paint that resembles sand paper and appears black to avoid radar detection. They fly with no lights on and have markings that cannot be seen under those conditions, according to Sokalski.
They fly just feet over the tops of trees and houses at high speed. One helicopter in the Kingsville raid was so low that it hit the top of a telephone pole, causing a fire by a house.
Soldiers get out quickly wearing black uniforms and begin firing machine guns. Sokalski was asked what would happen if a frightened resident concluded that these were unfriendly forces and decided to shoot at them.
"They are under orders not to return fire," Sokalski explained. The soldiers involved would call the local police to handle the shooter in such a situation.
Despite not knowing the circumstances of the mock attack, no one in Kingsville opened fire on the soldiers or brandished arms during the exercise.
Army Surprise Training Assaults Spur Conspiracy Fears
By Jim Day And Mary Lee Grant >AND MARY LEE GRANT >Staff Writers www.caller.com 2-17-99
A training assault on abandoned buildings in Kingsville by Army Special Forces troops last week has resulted in an alarm on the Internet by those concerned about an armed government takeover.
Kingsville Police Chief Felipe Garza said he has received complaints from as far away as California and Florida and has been invited to speak on talk-radio programs about the urban-warfare training exercises.
He has declined those invitations, saying he and other city officials were happy to help the Army in its training exercises and would invite the soldiers back again if asked. He said he has no intention of getting into ideological arguments with people he calls "alarmists."
"I'm not going to change their minds, and they're not going to change mine. I'm not going to get into it with them," Garza said. "Citizens here haven't been complaining."
On Feb. 8, about 60 soldiers from Army Special Forces teams based in Fort Bragg, N.C., swooped in on eight helicopters for a training assault on abandoned buildings in downtown Kingsville. Explosions and rifle fire startled nearby residents, and the attack caused a fire that gutted an abandoned police building and blew windows out of another building nearby.
The soldiers have remained in the area, doing training exercises in Port Aransas and in the Annaville/Calallen area. They are expected to continue their exercises this week in and around Corpus Christi before leaving the area by Saturday, said Walter Sokalski, a spokesman for the Army Special Operations Command at Fort Bragg.
The Special Forces teams are practicing techniques for urban warfare, Sokalski said. Under cover of darkness, the elite troops use training ammunition and explosives to attack the target areas, he said. The exercises are loud, but they're safe, he added. "We do an exhaustive risk assessment to make sure nothing comes out of the blast area," Sokalski said, adding that the Army planned the exercises months in advance with local officials.
Corpus Christi City Manager David Garcia said Monday that the city had been preparing for the operations and that he was happy to help the Army in its training.
"If we decided that we didn't want to support the United States military, we could have told them to stay out of the community," Garcia said. "I would like for these people to know what they are doing when they go out and actually try to protect America. "They told us that they prefer to keep this information confidential and asked us to respect that. That's what we've been doing," he added.
Others, however, may not see the training as so benign. One of the reports about the training exercises circulating on the Internet is at www.worldnetdaily.com. The story appears under the headline, "Armed and Dangerous: Is the U.S. Army Invading Texas? - Fear and Loathing in Kingsville."
Another report found in a conspiracy newsgroup - alt.conspracy.new-world-order - noted that reports of the exercise have been circulating on radio and shortwave programs. On talk-radio programs, callers were linking the training exercises to the possible societal meltdown when the Y2K problem hits, after which the government will supposedly declare martial law.
But even outside of conspiracy circles, some officials are upset that residents have not been informed of the training exercises. On Monday, Kleberg County commissioners voted unanimously to write a letter to officials with Army Special Forces asking them to inform county officials and the public in advance if they perform another military training exercise.
Tomas Sanchez, the county's emergency management coordinator and veterans service officer, said he was not informed about the maneuvers before they took place. The county judge and commissioners also said they didn't know about the exercises.
"I was in Austin for training and all of a sudden my beeper started going ballistic," Sanchez said. "I had no idea what to tell people, because I did not know it was going on."
Sanchez said that if he had known, he would have tried to stop the exercises. "I think they are dangerous to the people of Kingsville, " he said. "There have been a lot of crashes of low-flying helicopters in these type of maneuvers, and in one instance citizens on the ground were killed. I don't think it is a risk we want to take." Sanchez said he thinks the Army should have had public affairs officers come in after the exercise and explain what had happened.
"This puts the Army in a very bad light," Sanchez said. "It scares citizens to see black unmarked helicopters and men jumping out of them in black Ninja suits."
Sanchez said that the maneuvers may have been related to the Y2K problem and were a possible preparation for martial law as the year 2000 approaches.
"The American public is not the enemy," Sanchez said.
Commissioner Romeo Lomas said he lives two blocks from where the exercises took place and took calls from many terrified residents in his precinct.
"There are a lot of elderly people that live in Casa Ricardo and other places near there," Lomas said. "They were very scared. Some people thought the bank was robbed. One woman thought the world was coming to an end and went into her room and started praying. She said her heart was pounding like mad. If they want to do exercises in urban warfare, let them do it in Miami. Kingsville is a rural area."
County Judge Allen May said he wished he had been told about the maneuvers. "I was getting calls from reporters from Washington andAustin asking what happened and I had to say I didn't know," May said.
Lomas said that Police Chief Garza should have thought before he allowed the forces to come to Kingsville. "Now we are all taking the blame," he said.
Similar exercises have caused uproars in other cities in the past. In June 1996, police in Pittsburgh were swamped with phone calls after about 50 Special Forces troops started rappelling from helicopters during a mock attack on abandoned warehouses.
One witness reported the attack sent his pregnant wife into labor, and radio talk shows were filled with callers concerned about "black helicopters" and possible military attacks on American citizens, according to news accounts at the time. And in March 1997, city officials in Charlotte, N.C., asked Army special operations troops to take their exercises elsewhere after more than 100 soldiers began attacking an abandoned bus garage and warehouse downtown, according to news accounts.
When Charlotte City Councilman Malachi Greene came into the neighborhood that evening, he found startled residents carrying weapons in case the troops advanced, he said. Corpus Christi residents in the Annaville area said they were not startled when they saw the helicopters involved in the exercises Sunday evening.
"They were landing out by the refineries, and then flying real low along by the river," area resident Charlie Maroon said. He said he counted two or three helicopters without their lights on as he and neighbors watched the exercises for about an hour.
"It was kind of interesting, and kind of mysterious," Maroon said, adding that he didn't mind having the soldiers training nearby. "I just wish they'd come out and tell us what they're doing."
Staff writer Jim Day can be reached at 886-3794 or by e-mail at firstname.lastname@example.org. Staff writer Mary Lee Grant can be reached at 886-3752 or by e-mail at email@example.com ==========================================================================================================================================
Well well well.
I think I know what is going on... has anyone else put 2 and 2 and 2 and 2, um, together? Any ideas folks???????
-- Andy (2000EOD@prodigy.net), February 21, 1999
I wonder how many soldiers or guardsmen are actually prepared to wage war on American citizens, even to the taking of life? What a terrible choice to have to make. No one really knows what they will do under extreme pressure. One mighty stroke of clinton's pen and all legal gun owners will become criminals if we don't turn them in.
-- hayU (heyU@cantfoolme.com), February 21, 1999.
The more I hear about these incidents the more amazed / disturbed I become. I had always filed black helicopter sightings in the same mental folder as UFO's and the tri-lateral commission, etc... The fact that the military actually uses black helicopters in exercises in cities in the U.S. really shocks me. It makes me wonder how many of the "wacky" conspiricy theories might be far more real than I had assumed.
Just because you're paranoid, doesn't mean that they're not out to get you.
-- d (firstname.lastname@example.org), February 21, 1999.
Is it possible that, with the intervention in the populated areas of, e.g., Grenada, Lebanon, Somalia, Kuwait, and now the expected intervention in Kosovo, that the military knows it needs to train its young, inexperienced troops in actual urban situations? All branches of the military, including Navy Seals, Army Rangers, Delta, and the British SAS too, have been doing urban exercises, many on the North Carolina coast, about eight years that I know of, maybe longer, using urban building mock-ups, but you can't substitute for the real thing. Is it possible these exercises will save the lives of the daughters and sons of some people we know, because they were better trained? Do serious sea exercises take place in a swimming pool or at sea? Where else can the Army train its troops for urban warfare? Finally, why trust these news reporters to accurately depict these events when they're not trusted to accurately report Y2K and other events?
One of the reason British troops were able to do so well in Port Stanley (Falklands) is because so many of them had actual urban experience in Belfast. Training exercises regularly take place in and around US military bases, or did when I lived in those places, and the locals are pretty much used to it. It's because of the economic boost from those bases that nearby towns thrive and the inconvenience and disruption of exercises is the price they (usually) willingly pay.
When we were in Norfolk, VA, we very frequently experienced ear-shattering, window-rattling, shingle-shaking blasts from low-flying fighters, as well as the thunderous rumbling vibrations of low-flying helos. Traffic was often stoppped for hovercrafts full of armed assault troops crossing streets in Virginia Beach. Long convoys of trucks filled with heavily-equipped troops were normal. I don't ever remember having any warning. And if black helos had suddenly started disgorging black-uniformed figures rappelling from thereunder, I would have shrugged it off as another exercise and, like someone in one of the articles, grabbed some binoculars to watch.
No, I don't trust the Clinton Administration, either, but I'd need a lot more information on these exercises before I'd believe that they were meant solely to intimidate Americans. It would be a fruitless exercise, anyway, as King George III, and many others since, found out.
-- Old Git (email@example.com), February 21, 1999.
Do not purchase a gun from a store period! If you do purchase from a dealer then you might as well put a sign in your front yard that says guns here. Below that also say large amounts of food here. Buy the guns you feel you may need for protection from an individual in cash. Any guns purchased under Brady II are flagged in a database so accept that you may have to give them up.
-- Ed (firstname.lastname@example.org), February 21, 1999.
Ole Git-- the stinger here is that they lied about using training ammunition in KIngsville.
Rounds just fired into the sky to celebrate the 4th of July or New Year's Eve have been known to kill people when they came down again. Firing large number of live rounds horizontally seems a lot more likely to cause "collateral damage" then shooting up in the air.
Maybe someone ought to check hospital admissions and death notices following the Kingsville, Corpus Christi and San Antonio exercises.
And why the focus on Texas? 'Cause Texans are more docile?
-- Tom Carey (email@example.com), February 21, 1999.
Old Git - yes, it's possible.
The SAS do NOT play in villages in the English countryside :) They DO play in Belfast and Crossmaglen and Sarajevo and Yemen.
They DON'T advertise themselves and they don't put on shows for JQP.
Why advertise your capabilities to potential adversaries, be they domestic or foreign?? Doesn't seem very clever to me.
No, there's more to it than that I think Old Git.
Just my tuppence worth.
-- Andy (2000EOD@prodigy.net), February 21, 1999.
Horizontal pseudo-aimed fire has LESS chanc of colateral damage in training scenarios because it is aimed (or one can hope) toward a target. Much more likely to hit a backstop, building, etc.
-- Chuck, night driver (firstname.lastname@example.org), February 21, 1999.
My main question with this is, with all of the abandoned military bases, couldn't they have used an administration building on one of these. These were 'not' scenarios that they couldn't duplicate on government property. This is what makes me think they were sending a message.
-- RB (R@AR.COM), February 21, 1999.
The Bear has to agree with most here. It not because they were training . As Old Git has pointed out, that's necessary. But the reason for selecting American Cities is the one that chokes when the Bear tries to swallow it.
The Bear does not have the wisdom to know exactly what to make of it, but it does piss him off pretty bad.
It *is* sinister in the root definition in Latin - means without truth or without honesty.
Course it don't help that it happen in Texas. The ol Bear is especially touchy about that.
-- Greybear, watching closer now (as if that were possible)
- Got Papers?
-- Greybear (email@example.com), February 21, 1999.
Andy .. Here is 2 plus 2, for what it's worth. As pointed out in earlier threads, with logistics support, the army could field only about 200,000 men for massive Y2K riot/problems, whatever. The US population is too large to control physically, like a class of thirty noisy, yelling kids when a teacher/sub steps in 30 seconds after the bell rings. If you want control of the class (country), an experienced teacher will pick an individual who is boisterous/leader of the continued noise making ( they know your there .. you have given them a chance to quiet down ) and come down HARD on him/her. The reaction is the rest get quiet to hear what will happen AND see just how much experience ( read fire power/grenades) you have in CONTROLING THIS KNOWN ENTITY. The military know they have the attention of web groups like this AND the militias and/or real crazies. You proved that with these threads above. And , as for the civilians, many stated they were "frightened" . They are exercizing exactly the same type of "crowd" control, IN ADVANCE !! Plus, with the known info on the EOs where the alphabet boys can control BOTH local AND state police , where ever these civilian "Terrorist/militias" exist, you don't have to have graduated fifth grade to see intent. If they can bulldoze over the bodies of innocent women and children at Waco, with hardly a wimper from the public (forget the liberal press) , then JR and Billy must feel they can do almost anything ... Right ? RIGHT !!! Eagle
-- Harold Walker (firstname.lastname@example.org), February 21, 1999.
Andy .. Here is 2 plus 2, for what it's worth. As pointed out in earlier threads, with logistics support, the army could field only about 200,000 men for massive Y2K riot/problems, whatever. The US population is too large to control physically, like a class of thirty noisy, yelling kids when a teacher/sub steps in 30 seconds after the bell rings. If you want control of the class (country), an experienced teacher will pick an individual who is boisterous/leader of the continued noise making ( they know your there .. you have given them a chance to quiet down ) and come down HARD on him/her. The reaction is the rest get quiet to hear what will happen AND see just how much experience ( read fire power/grenades) you have in CONTROLING THIS KNOWN ENTITY. The military know they have the attention of web groups like this AND the militias and/or real crazies. You proved that with these threads above. And , as for the civilians, many stated they were "frightened" . They are exercizing exactly the same type of "crowd" control, IN ADVANCE !! Plus, with the known info on the EOs where the alphabet boys can control BOTH local AND state police , where ever these civilian "Terrorist/militias" exist, you don't have to have graduated fifth grade to see intent. If they can bulldoze over the bodies of innocent women and children at Waco, with hardly a wimper from the public (forget the liberal press) , then JR and Billy must feel they can do almost anything ... Right ? RIGHT !!! Eagle ( in the nest - under my wing )
-- Harold Walker (email@example.com), February 21, 1999.
I tend to agree with Ole Git...they need the practice...and when one considers that half of the Texas population is either military, or working for a subcontractor of the military...then it only stands to reason they'd have more support for their operations here. Tom, docile Texans? somehow I never thought of Texas as docile... maybe I need to get out more! Anyway, although I think they should notify the locals before they play their games, I don't think it really ever occurred to them that they might be intimidating anyone.
-- Shelia (firstname.lastname@example.org), February 21, 1999.
Andy! Thanks for all the info.
With all the info gathering the Fed is doing right now on domestic terrorism along with the threats posed by other outside forces I'd say that this feels like it's a message more than an excercise.
Of course, any house by house urban warfare is incredibly difficult and costly too. But, don't they have safer, more citizen friendly areas?
This just "feels" like it's a message being sent to someone or some group already in this country.
I also don't like the fact that not only were these areas not told about the exercise before hand but then the Army lied about the use of real, live ammo. Some of these rounds can easily pass through concrete and keep on going for quite some distance.
Why would they lie?
-- Michael Taylor (email@example.com), February 21, 1999.
Andy: I didn't say the SAS "played in English villages," they were among those who trained on the NC coast (according to a reservist friend). They also trained in Florida, but that was a swampy situation, not urban (according to a retired SAS friend). I suspect the SAS has participated in joint training exercise with US units and maybe others in the California desert too, but I don't know that. Be intersting to see if any of those black-clad folks in Texas had a British accent.
You claim that the Army planned such a public exercise to intimidate ordinary Americans, then you say it doesn't seem very clever to advertise to domestic or foreign adversaries what you can do. Well, that's what air shows do too! They publicize what the pilots and planes are capable of and it tends to scare the living hell out of the competition! (As it did with Iraqi pilots during Desert Storm, who had to be "coerced" into the air, according to some reliable reports.) You can't have it both ways, either these exercises are useful as a deterrent to adversaries or they're not.
Tom: I'm aghast that you actually typed "Texan" and "docile" in the same sentence! You must never have lived in Texas nor known many Texans! And did the Army really LIE about live ammunition? Here's the pertinent quote: "He [Sokalski] also confirmed that live ammunition and explosives were used in the middle of a populated area with no advance warning to residents. Sokalski in- sisted [sic] athat every possible safety precaution was taken, including the use of training munitions and special stray bullet 'traps.'
"He told WorldNetDaily that full-powered ammunition and explosives are never used in areas where civilians are located. . . ."
Okay, Sokalski said that live ammo was used in a populated area, i.e., in Kingsville, a populated are, but qualified the statement by saying that FULL-POWERED ammo and explosives are never used in areas where there are any civilians. Now, far as I remember, people were evacuated from the downtown area, that is, no civilians were located there, even though the Kingsville area, as a whole is classed as a populated area, e.g., as opposed to a pasture or woods. So I think the Army PA officer was guilty of ambiguous, even poor command of the language. And I think the reporter, as most reporters are, was too anxious to find a hook to hang a headline on.
Then there's the question of what happened to the paper bits left behind by what the Brits call "flash-bangs," which simulate (beautifully and harmlessly) the flash and bang of hand grenades. Just before that, the journalist reported a cleaning crew went in and cleaned up evey trace of the exercise. Hell, it's charred paper! It probably blew away in tiny flakes! (There was nothing left of the flash-bangs I witnessed, save for a darker patch on the asphalt. I was about ten yards away when they were employed and inspected the spots closely after the detonations were over)
RB: you can only use abandoned bases up to a point. Abandoned bases just don't have the same look or layout of an urban area.
Bear: I think there were three reasons those particular locations were chosen. One is that there are a lot of Texans in the armed forces and two is that Texans are generally more patriotic than others. Three is that San Antonio is home to a large Air Force base (Carswell, I think); NAS Corpus Christie is a large facility; and NAS Kingsville ain't so tiny. People in these three locales are familiar with the military and depend on the military for a lot of their income. They'll be a lot less forgiving (eventually) of any gaffes than, say, the folks in Hollywood.
And I think that's mainly what was the problem here--a public relations gaffe. I think those folks should have been notified a little before the exercises took place or, in the least, quick and profuse apologies for any problems should have been forthcoming, along with a heavy dose of gratitude.
An afterthought: I recently sent a tape to my Dad, the first part of which consisted of the traditional US New Year's Eve celebrations at midnight, just the same as in any of the many US locales we've lived--sounded like Beirut on speed out there. Semi-automatic weapons fire was clearly audible nearby, with regularly spaced silences as a clip was replaced, then there was the distinct sound of a .357 from up the street, among miscellaneous small-arms fire all over town. In the distance were what sounded like the old German 88s, but were probably M-80s, along with those firewqorks that sound like machine-gun fire. I'll bet any money that the traditional US midnight NYE celebration causes more casualties than these exercises (as Tom correctly pointed out about vertically-fired bullets), and that many of those who are complaining about the exercises have participated in the traditional welcome to the New Year. There were so many "shots fired" calls here that the 911 dispatchers were giving them out by area in batches of about 12. Officers were not expected to investigate, but the calls came in and had to be dispatched or the computer would rebel. About ten minutes to midnight, I heard on my scanner where the police in a high-crime area downtown were reminding themselves to make their way to cover in a reinforced concrete parking garage. Ironic, isn't it?
-- Old Git (firstname.lastname@example.org), February 21, 1999.
Sorry, I should have said those folks would be MORE forgiving than the Hollywood folks! I apologize too for the many typos. It's just on midnight and almost past my bedtime.
-- Sleepy Old Git (email@example.com), February 21, 1999.
If you see this as a little off topic, my apologies. It fits in to one of the reasons I see the Fed and the military so active.
I've mentioned before that the Southern California area has been enduring a wave of Antrax scares. Someone leaves a package somewhere or, like in the case of the L.A. Times recently, a package is sent to a specific person. Upon opening the package that contains some form of liquid or powder a note says something to the effect that the person has now been exposed to Anthrax.
Well, all over L.A. area T.V. stations this evening (2/21/99) are special segments on Bio/Chem attacks and how to prepare for them and survive. The issue is being taken very, very seriously and it literally reminded me of what the citizens of Israel went through during the Gulf War. Windows and doors taped, gas masks...
There isn't any sensational aspect to the reporting and it feels as if this is a story that the stations were told to report. I wish they would take this sort of tone with Y2k stories.
Something is up people and in my mind it's just a matter of time before one of these packages contains a real Bio/Chem attack.
-- Michael Taylor (firstname.lastname@example.org), February 22, 1999.
Remember Occam's Razor (the simplest answer is usual the best). I think Old git is on the right track. They have to train in a realistic environment. Bad PR is not the same as intimidation. Domestic terrorism is at the top of special ops worry list.
and WorldNet Daily is heavily biased reporting.
reminds of a twist on an old saying as originally applied to UFO's:
"If I hadn't believed it, I never would have seen it."
-- Lewis (email@example.com), February 22, 1999.
Sorry, Old Git, I was under the impression that the Delta Force and Navy Seals were the inferior American equivalent of the SAS ( says Andy, ducking for cover, putting on his kevlar and asbestos suit :) )
No - I agree with one of the posts above - they are sending a message, it will get to the Patriot groups in milliseconds on the web. There will inevitably be another Ruby Ridge or Tokyo pathogen release - only this time much more bloody and lethal to the population - the stakes are really sky high now considering what Clinton and his controllers have in mind.
Also the spate of anthrax scares in CA, the announcement of a head of cyber and biological terrorism - I've said this before...
PROBLEM === REACTION === SOLUTION
They are setting about a game plan to implement their "solution" - and we all know what that is going to be.
The "problem" is being set-up now, the foundations have and are being put in place.
When a few atrocities occur the herd will clamour for "action" and request that the government find the vile perpetrators...
Big brother will then step in with their "solution" to the artificially created "problem"...
Stand back and look at the pieces of the jigsaw puzzle - it is SO obvious what is going on...
And puuuuhleeeze, don't bother flaming me that I'm a paranoid whacko.
I'm not, I'm an interested observer - it will be an interesting 18 months...
-- Andy (2000EOD@prodigy.net), February 22, 1999.
Sorry Lewis, but when I use Occam's Razor to slice this thing up I'm left with a simple answer that doesn't agree with yours.
I'm left with the answer that we have a goverment that is to powerful and out of control. Even with all of Hardliners logic taken into account (and I think he has a good view of the Military perspective) I can't find a simpler answer.
These events are too egregious to be accounted for as *only* training exersizes. Let's pray Hardliners view of the integrity of the individual Military person is correct. It may be our only hope.
- Got Shaving Cream?
-- Greybear (firstname.lastname@example.org), February 22, 1999.
Andy, Just now I'm reminded of your other posts with the PROBLEM-REACTION-SOLUTION model. (very interesting hypothesis, BTW) It occurs to me in a sort of wag the doggish sense that the heavily PR'ed domestic terrorism/anthrax stuff in the news and out of DC lately is such an obvious, albeit clever, way to get denizens to accept the notion of troop massings, checkpoints and the like. I'm highly suspicious of the turned up volume on all this stuff we "need to fear" from bad guys that we need the govt/police/military to protect us from.
A couple thoughts, one cuppa coffee shy.
-- Donna Barthuley (email@example.com), February 22, 1999.
One piece that's missing from those who are defending this action by the Army:
Granted that such an exercise provides optimal training for special ops units, why haven't we seen these kinds of exercises on a regular basis for the whole time that U.S. special operations forces have existed?
-- Franklin Journier (firstname.lastname@example.org), February 22, 1999.
Because it's only since the Army has seen casualties in urban areas that there has been a need. They were a bit busy with desert warfare for a while, but now urban warfare is uppermost again and there's an influx of inexperienced troops tp be trained, and they need to be tained quickly and efficiently. These exercises were an efficient, if PR-blundering, way to do it. Anybody remember the awful news footage of those dead American troops in a Somalian street, being picked over by the local warlord's troops (who were HEAVILY experienced in urban warfare)? You want to see the same thing in Kosovo? The people we're going up against in Kosovo have been conducting urban warfare for--how long? About six or eight years? They're experienced!
And I'm not defending the Army, per se, I have lots of problems with the military, I'm saying that there just might be another explanation besides intimidation of the American people. There are cheaper, easier, and far more subtle ways to intimidate. It's only on the Internet that people are buzzing about these exercises. The other 98 percent of Americans have no idea what happened, nor do they care. If the government wanted to intimidate the American people, it would be a much more widespread exercise.
I can see you folks won't consider even a shadow of a doubt, so I'm going to end my part in this debate. Let's just agree to differ.
-- Old Git (email@example.com), February 22, 1999.
C'mon folks, the attempted intimidation is fairly blatant, no?
I know people don't like to deal with these sorts of issues, forces them to choose between uncomfortable alternatives, and that's something that many folks generally avoid at all cost. None the less, the lines are being drawn fairly clearly. If you do not decide now how you will react when the confrontation becomes more direct, you may not have time to form a thoughtful and coherent strategy later.
You don't have to tell us, but you do need to decide just between God and you, which side you're really on.
-- Arlin H. Adams (firstname.lastname@example.org), February 22, 1999.
I have always considered terrorists as individuals or groups that used weapons of choice......today that involves bombs and of course the much talked about biological weapons. So if the Army were actually conducting military exercises using their anti-terrorism team why wouldn't they go into the exercise with the appropriate gear for say a biological situation???? From what I understand they were all dressed in black..? Why not the protective suits and gas masks? If not biological and possibly bomb scenario why would you go in shooting and blowing things up?????? Just wondering? Any responses?
-- Michelle (not available@can'thave.com), February 23, 1999.
Michelle, go to the front of the class !!!
Come on explainers. I want to hear someone tackle this one.
-- Greybear, THIS is why I hang around here
-- Greybear (email@example.com), February 23, 1999.
Two excellent points raised by Frankilin and Michelle:- Why Now?? yep, why now indeed...
And Michelle... Andy does a dope slap on his head! OF COURSE, why were'nt they wearing full NBC suits?
Also, it is easy to build a mock village or urban or city area to practise urban warfare. The British Army and Police have done it, why not in the USA. There are plenty of abandoned ilitary bases where urban warfare and house to house searches could be simulated.
No - it's definitely meant to send a message - the King Ranch perhaps???
-- Andy (2000EOD@prodigy.net), February 23, 1999.
Andy, Agree with your comments, with the exception of "abandoned military bases", why would they want to cause destruction to bases they have currently revamped for other purposes? : )
-- Michelle (not available@can'thave.com), February 23, 1999.
I guess I was referring to bases that hadn't been rebuilt yet or turned over for public housing - there are plenty of those around the country due to the Clinton cutbacks. There is really no need to have these wargames in full public view unless there is a desire to communicate something to the public.
-- Andy (2000EOD@prodigy.net), February 23, 1999.
Andy, I read your thread regarding the contrails from Holly Dayo. Earlier today I also heard another source express that same opinion.
Remember this saying, there's no such thing as "bad" press?
Don't these exercises seem to fit right in to the blame 'big brother' scenario Holly Dayo brought up? Get people motivated. Get people aware. Get people angry. Get people ready.
-- Michael Taylor (firstname.lastname@example.org), February 23, 1999.