OT: An apology (of sorts)

http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=0011VF

As you stated on the above thread, Mr. Decker...

Recently, I have become embroiled in heated exchanges with some forum posters. After a long ton of personal attacks, I lapsed. Of course, this is no excuse. Personal attacks are inappropriate and a waste of time. This apology is not meant for those who matched me swing for swing... but for those who had to endure the churlish displays. Perhaps my fellow mudslingers will join me at the podium... well, maybe not. -- Mr. Decker (kcdecker@worldnet.att.net), June 30, 1999

To continue...

1) You might offer a real heart-felt apology to Lisa... rather than a sorta apology... to everyone else.

2) A big gesture on your part would be to offer a real one to Hardliner as well.

I dont expect one to me for the following viscousness...

Dianne (MBA),

I have more experience with snipers and small unit tactics than with "Yanni" and the healing power of crystals. While I know rational thought strains your new age mind, try this. It's impossible to defend a fixed position, even with Feng Shui. When a well-armed, motivated aggressor force wants to take your Y2K supplies, a cup of warm chamomille tea will not soothe them into leaving. Quoting Kahlil Gibran will force even the most merciful of raiders shoot you.

Pray, meditate, project astrally, become one with the Gaia... whatever it is you do, Dianne. Ask the Great Spirit to save us from a post-Apocalyptic world. This way you'll be free to pursue your alternative though patterns without the messy business of reality.

Regards,

-- Mr. Decker (kcdecker@worldnet.att.net), June 28, 1999.

But... it would be nice.

And I would be surprised if you offered one directly to Big Dog for...

Ah, our jackboots come into the light. Big Dodger and Dianne Squire, MBA. Who else is on the "home team?" No "heretics," I presume. (laughter)

Not too much of a stretch, is it, BD? I imagine the robes of SysOp fit nicely on you. Perhaps Dianne can tell you about your past lives? I can imagine you have worn the robes before... extracting confessions during the Inquisition perhaps? Keeping the common folk from the Scriptures while peddling indulgences? Playing the politics of imperialism, all in the name of the Holy Church?

I recognize you now, Brother Russell, with your sincere eyes and soft hands. Enjoy your church, BD... I just hope Dante was right.

On to lighter work... Lisa. Rattled? Hardly. I just hope you take a moment to thank the men and women who served so you could prattle on about how terrible America is. Like a spoiled child, you treat poorly the freedoms you never had to earn.

Of course, here I am talking about freedom in a private club. Close the windows, folks, and keep out the light.

Regards,

-- Mr. Decker (kcdecker@worldnet.att.net), June 28, 1999.

But, as youve learned... or not... by now... it was those comments to Lisa that really annoyed many.

How big are you Mr. Decker?

And, BTW, Mr. Decker, I DO apologize to you for being in a knee-jerk mood... all be it with extreme provocation, lately.

Quite sincerely... yet still pretty angry,

Diane

-- Diane J. Squire (sacredspaces@yahoo.com), July 01, 1999

Answers

Now... ABOUT YOUR REPEATED ISSUE OF CENSORSHIP...

What the HECK do you think is Doc Paulies AGENDA... but... Censorship of this Forum?

Please refer to the recent post...

MAKING MONEY? now that is funny
Tuesday, 29-Jun-1999 18:59:11

http:// www.InsideTheWeb.com/messageboard/mbs.cgi?acct=mb237006&MyNum= 930697151&P=Yes&TL=930674169

Doc been absent of late. Been sparing with them MIT types over hosting TB2000 ya know. Getting nowhere as one might figure. Phil had the best comeback so far,,,,"don't sweat it, it will all be over by January" not a direct quote but close.

MIT geeks now "doing something" at least I naively hope, right. Doing what? getting TB2000 off taxpayer supported information infrastructure over at MIT for starters. I got a problem with a place where the players condone the impending deaths of BILLIONS of our fellow humans, us too I am told, us dumbasses the Pollys. But then again, these people think this event is preparable. I say you need to think-LYE- TRENCHES-SURGICAL MASKS, or your are stroking yourself. Forget the barrels and seeds, yur gunna need backhoes folks.

[snip]

The BILLIONS dead thing done it for me. How can one even answer anything in this environment? Debunk? for what possible reason? Why waste one's time? All the freaking evidence one could EVER need is here and at BIFFY concern Y2k being basically a web-marketing scheme.

Not to fret, Doc be around just the same.

Doc_Paulie@ihateclowns.com

So... Mr. Decker,

In my opinion, that is the most blatant form of CENSORSHIP around, Mr. Decker!

But are you... or ANY of the trolls from De Bunker who are spreading trash here... yelling Censorship over there?

NO.

It works both ways... Mr. Decker.

Diane, again!

-- Diane J. Squire (sacredspaces@yahoo.com), July 01, 1999.

Thanks...

I really don't need an apology. My skin's pretty thick, and I'm guilty of provoking Mr. Decker many times.

Although, in lieu of an apology, I would like Mr. Decker to share with us why he's so intent on "de-programming" us.

BTW, I was not referring to America in that post. I was replacing Deck's words with what I inferred to be his true concerns.... (and rightfully): The Fractional Reserve Scheme and banking in general, rather than the Commonweal of the nation.

-- Lisa (lisa@work.now), July 01, 1999.

We know you were Lisa. Some daze it's just hard to be... cool.

Diane

-- Diane J. Squire (sacredspaces@yahoo.com), July 01, 1999.

Diane:

Here's a suggestion for you:

Why don't you spend a little bit of time collecting responses made to a post from either Mr. Decker or myself, by Andy, Ray, King of Spain, or Will continue. You should be able to find several hundred within a very short time.

Now, I defy you to find even *one* such post that any decent person wouldn't say calls for an apology. You'll have hundreds to choose from, or thousands if you spend over an hour.

The fact that you attack Decker for apologizing for occasional harshness, while studiously avoiding *any* mention of the avalanche of gratuitous and crude insults from your fellow church members, brands you a total idiot.

I don't often express myself so bluntly, but sometimes there is no suitable euphemism. You are closed-minded, self-righteous and flagrantly playing favorites.

When such a person has moderator powers, and feels "her" forum is most threatened by one of the most reasonable voices here, and never deigns to notice the constant mud being slung by those who all happen to be at the doomer extreme, there is ample reason to be upset. You are a judged clothed in a white sheet and pointed hood. The applause you expect from your sycophants cannot disguise the disgrace you have brought upon yourself.

-- Flint (flintc@mindspring.com), July 01, 1999.

Actually, I think BOTH of you (and an awful lot of the other regulars) do an almost unbelievable job of remaining 'cool'. I openly admit, this subject boils my blood. It goes against my character to 'calmly' take a stand on anything with the potential magnitude for disaster that this subject has. The level of patience you display is admirable. Don't even expect it from me.....just can't do it. Tried it once. Very painful. Too dangerous to my health.

-- Will continue (farming@home.com), July 01, 1999.

Flint, THANKS for including me with the likes of Andy, King of Spain and Will Continue, it is indeed an HONOR!!.

With the LITTLE time left that we have I think we should devote it to SERIOUS discussion of y2k and preparations.

Your Pal, Ray

-- Ray (ray@totacc.com), July 01, 1999.

Oh my, Flint. Doing your imitation of a 'door mat' again? I would offer you an apology, if I'd ever said anything that I was sorry for, to either YOU or DECKER. Geeeese. I've offered one to FM and one to JAW. You just don't require one....or I'd be certain to give one to you as well. Tough.

-- Will continue (farming@home.com), July 01, 1999.

I notice that I am still alone in offering any type of apology.

As Flint describes, I spent some months where every post I made was met with unceasing personal attacks. Only on rare occasion did anyone confront the attackers. The attacks included "liar," "hypocrite," "moron," "coward," "idiot," (in fact, the list is quite long and rather creative.) Some of the attacks came from members of the current moderating "team." One repeated slur was that I was either "dense" or "dishonest."

It was wrong to abandon my policy of polite detachment and engage in mud slinging. I regret losing my temper.

I think your request for a personal apology, however, is an attemt to rub salt in the wound. While my attacks were not justified, they were clearly provoked from my first post on this forum. If the provacateurs wish to mend fences, I will respond in kind. In your case, Diane, I am willing to meet you the middle for a burying of the hatchet (somewhere other than in my skull.)

This is the first time I have read the post from Doc Paulie about his alleged conversation with MIT. This is one I need to read carefully before commenting.

Finally, what am I doing that is "deprogramming?" I disagree with what I consider the more "fringe" positions on this forum. I do not work for the banking industry, although I am a customer. I rather like having an account and the benefits it offers.

Regards,

-- Mr. Decker (kcdecker@worldnet.att.net), July 01, 1999.

the small man is governed by law.the gentleman is governed by propriety.the sage is governed by virtue,and the perfected sage is governed by Tao.when the common man hears this,he laughs.if it were not laughed at,it would not be Tao.-Lao Tzu,from Tao te ching

-- zoobie (zzoobiezoob@yahoo.com), July 01, 1999.

The Decker-door-mat. If you've been so horribly treated...from day one, why don't you just wave bye-bye and we'll wave ALOHA! But do not expect me to give you 'another' lei. You dinked around teasing us about leaving yesterday, and now you will have to go leiless. I have 6" of water in my barn and am grumpy and irritated by your continued presence, please excuse me.

-- Will continue (farming@home.com), July 01, 1999.

"Just shag me" Squire you must be a guy because YOU HAVE SOME BALLS to make your statements on this thread! You attempt to back-hand Mr. Decker but your own hypocrisy undoes you.

Have you apologized to Mutha and the others you inserted comments in there posts? Have you apologized to Cherri for being to stupid to know how the internet works? Have you apologized for trying to SET ME UP with your made-up threads THAT ARE OUT OF ORDER? [Don't change the subject. No links to somewhere else, I've read them. None of your "we know your IP" You see what I want you to see. answer the question. HOW DID THE DATES GET OUT OF ORDER ON THOSE POSTS, DIANE? The answer is YOU fucked with the posts to try to get me on your "delete on site" kick!]

I think taxpayer money to support this cult gathering SHOULD be cut off.

Mr. Decker showed just HOW MUCH bigger he is than you. I was considering being more civil because of his example. All you can do is shit on him for it. You piss me off. You and the other wack-0 y2kultists.

-- Super Polly (Fu_Q_y2kfreaks@hotmail.com), July 01, 1999.

The SHILL speaks.

-- Andy (2000EOD@prodigy.net), July 01, 1999.

Flint and others,

I recognize this has been repeated ad nausem but, under the About area... it STILL states...

http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/ policy.tcl?topic=TimeBomb%202000%20%28Y2000%29

Founded by computer expert and noted author, Ed Yourdon:

This forum is intended for people who are concerned about the impact of the Y2000 problem on their personal lives, and who want to discuss various fallback contingency plans with other like-minded people. It's not intended to provide advice/guidance for solving Y2000 problems within an IT organization.

Thats like-minded Flint. People who are concerned about Y2K... NOT people who are NOT concerned about it.

Ever since Ed Yourdon started the forum back in December of 1997, I believe, it has continued to morph, go through ups and downs, over under around and through the related--and not so related issues of Y2K, et. al.--until its present form.

Ed took a very light hand with deleting. But he did delete, when asked or when necessary. Recently he shared with me...

Re herding cats: actually, when I was doing it, it was more like being a kindergarten teacher during recess, with a hundred kids all running around in the playground and getting themselves in various sorts of minor trouble. It's not possible to supervise anyone, and it's not even worth the trouble from keeping the kids (mostly the boys) from getting into little scuffles with one another. It's only when they get really vulgar with one another -- e.g., pulling their pants down to expose themselves -- that you have to step in and take control. Then they all howl and call you names for a few minutes before returning to their play ...

The other thing to keep in mind is that "recess" will be over 197 days from now, and then it won't matter very much what they were doing...

Ed

###

Now, for a little more recent history. On May 29th, after returning from a very disappointing week in Washington, Ed suddenly announced in his Sayonara, Y2K essay that he was leaving the Y2K scene... for now. Find... the essay at his web-site:

http://www.yourdon.com

That move caught everyone on the forum off-guard. And yet its understandable. Hes since shared why he did it, and I support his choice.

At that time--and out of every other regular poster--he invited me, to become the TimeBomb 2000 Forum sysop.

To say I was stunned was an understatement. But, at that time, we all were.

I said I would to help out, and that Id also think about it overnight and that Id feel better setting up a Moderating team to help out with this job, and that Id like to appoint a second keeper of the keys so-to-speak.

His response was... Okay, you are now the senior sysop. If you choose to share the burden with other folks, that's up to you.

So, if I had wanted to power grab as you imply, there was my golden opportunity. However, my preference is building communities and being part of a team. So, I rapidly set about tapping people to volunteer for a Moderators team--about 15 or so--and ultimately set up a private Moderators Forum so we could all communicate.

However, I DID NOT WANT TO BECOME A TROLL TARGET so I made the choice to remain anonymous, which the Moderator team respected. Several of them prefer to stay that way, even now, and thats fine with me.

Please, place all this in context.

That weekend we all thought the forum might be closed, so the back- channel e-mail of about 200 messages was staggering, as regulars and newcomers grappled with Eds departure and what that would mean to all of us who were still concerned about the impact of Y2K on our personal, local, national and international situations.

A representative request...

Please Don't Cancell This Forum (May 29, 1999)

http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id= 000t9P

I asked Ed to announce that a team was being formed to keep the forum open which he did in this statement: New sysop/moderators being organized for this forum (Ed Yourdon--May 31, 1999)

http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id= 000tNe

And I also asked that he keep his link ton his web-site as a gateway to the forum... which he did.

Y2K essays, links and resources remain on my site, for now... (Ed Yourdon--May 31, 1999)

http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id= 000tNi

The rest of the past months experience has been quite a roller coaster ride.

One of the first things I did, was ASK the forum participants what they wanted... now that Ed was leaving.

Question: About the TimeBomb 2000 (Y2000) Forum & Changes

http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id= 000tPe

And some other requests were made...

NOTICE: To Forum Posters Re: Trolls and Moderation (Time Bomb 2000 Sysop--June 06, 1999)

http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id= 000uxC

And responses...

NOTICE TO FORUM SYSOP(S) (Hardliner--June 06, 1999 )

http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id= 000v0I

A Time For Cool Heads On The Forum And ... (BigDog--June 08, 1999 )

http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id= 000vWD

A Few Comments About the Recent Events on the Forum (Sysop #2--June 09, 1999 )

http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id= 000vkF

(OT) Big Brother is you! (OT) (Unc D--June 09, 1999 )

http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id= 000vkf

why's everyone arguing? (June 10, 1999)

http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id= 000w50

As an indicator of just HOW interested regular posters are about staying on Y2K issues see also...

Paging Yourdonites For Chat On Various Subjects (BigDog--June 02, 1999 )

http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id= 000tv3

Paging Yourdonites About Possible Chat Subjects (BigDog--June 03, 1999)

http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id= 000u8R

And...

Would it be possible to make this two forums? (June 10, 1999)

http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id= 000wEF

Just some links.

So, at any rate... during this time, theres been a constant troll escallation and the question is what to do about it.

Well, I havent done well. Im very sorry for that. And Im trying.

Diane

(More comments in a few minutes.)

-- Diane J. Squire (sacredspaces@yahoo.com), July 01, 1999.

Flint

Mud-slinging does not suit you.

-- Mike Lang (webflier@erols.com), July 01, 1999.

Flint,

Diane's two messages are not an "attack" on Mr. Decker. My take on it is that she is not automatically accepting the apology Mr. Decker offered. It's Diane's prerogative to accept it or not.

You'll have to admit that Mr. Decker has used personal characterizations against Diane far more than Diane has against Mr. Decker (if Diane has actually done so at all). Yes, there are other people on both side of Y2K issue that should be making apologies, but the subject today is the apology that Mr. Decker's offered.

My advice to Mr. Decker is the same that I made to him awhile back. A number of years ago, a white politician made the faux pas of referring to a black group he was speaking to as "you people". People on this forum are individuals, and there is a wide diversity of opinion as to the potential effects of Y2K. If Mr. Decker truly wants his economic comments heard, he would do well to avoid making broad characterizations about people that distract attention from those comments.

I'm looking forward to hearing real economic commentary from Mr. Decker. But again, it's Diane's prerogative to accept Mr. Decker's apology or to wait and see.

-- Linkmeister (link@librarian.edu), July 01, 1999.

Flint,

You said... You are closed-minded, self-righteous and flagrantly playing favorites.

Well, I try hard not to be, but whats important is Y2K, in my opinion, and Mr. Decker tends to mock that. And, there are times when Ive had enough, and I flare too. You are right. Just now I feel extremely frustrated. And very uncool.

Not to mention stuck, between a rock and a hard place.

By and large about half the posters posters want no moderating... the other half want some moderating... the trolls dealt with and the trashy posts removed. Its not easy, to take the best path.

When you say... When such a person has moderator powers, and feels "her" forum is most threatened by one of the most reasonable voices here, and never deigns to notice the constant mud being slung by those who all happen to be at the doomer extreme, there is ample reason to be upset. You are a judged clothed in a white sheet and pointed hood. The applause you expect from your sycophants cannot disguise the disgrace you have brought upon yourself.

Okay, I can see how you feel that way. The way I feel is that Mr. Decker, by virtue of hanging out at the De Bunker site, is not being a reasonable voice.

Perhaps, in this I err. Im human and make mistakes. Doozies!!! (No kidding).

Diane

(More comments, to the rest, in a moment).

-- Diane J. Squire (sacredspaces@yahoo.com), July 01, 1999.

Flint

What you are saying might have a ring of truth to it but the fact remains that Decker was insulting the forum rather than individual views. I have said my piece to Decker and accept that he will not stoop so low as to try continuing the retoric. It is one thing to attack a persons position and another to attack a person as an individual. Still another to lump all members of the forum in the same pile. Rediculous

IMHO there are other guilty parties involved but unfortunately you have added yourself to the list. This is not to say that I agree with Diane's method on this but your reaction and attack without any reason on a personal level has reduced you to the level of those you are attacking. I didn't see your name on a hit list. You should understand that your views are often not shared by others and except that.

And I know you are smarter than this.

I feel that Decker is guilty and has made his peace (for now :o)

Talk is cheap, actions count.

I think that several apologies are going to be in order after this settles down.

The forum is greater than the individual parts. And "infighting" in this manner is counter productive.

I am sure that Dieter will voice the final word on the subject. Someone has to make sense here **VBG**

-- Brian (imager@home.com), July 01, 1999.

Mr. Decker,

I too... regret losing my temper and engage in any mudslinging. And I will attempt to adopt a policy of polite detachment, as well.

I think your request for a personal apology, however, is an attemt to rub salt in the wound.

Yes, I think youre right.

For that I apologize. Because you so clearly, post over on the De Bunker site, I made the error of assuming you necessarily condone the troll attacks launched from there over to here, and that you support the actions of Doc Paulie to try and shut down this forum, by contacting MIT.

Mea culpa.

Mr. Decker, I am also willing to meet you the middle for a burying of the hatchet (somewhere other than in MY skull.)

I ALSO disagree with what I consider the more "fringe" positions on this forum, hoever, that appears to be the way it has morphed, and frankly, I dont know what to DO... if anything... about it.

This is not remotely easy, Mr. Decker.

Diane, still a shaky 5

(More responses to come)

-- Diane J. Squire (sacredspaces@yahoo.com), July 01, 1999.

Actually, I'd say Diane and I are about even on the exchange of barbs. I just wish the she would quote the invitation on Ed Yourdon's home page... the wide open welcome to discuss all things related to Y2K. It was much broader than the preparation focus.

On a related note, every time you use the word, "troll," Diane, I am reminded of a litany of racial and ethnic slurs. Why do you think I have gone to such trouble to avoid using the slang of "Doomers" and "Pollys?" I try substitute optmists and pessimists because they are far less inflammatory terms.

It's also biased to judge people because they post on other fora. I visited a number of survivalist sites when I started looking into Y2K. It didn't make me a survivalist. My participation on an Internet web page is not an endorsement... no more than my involvement here is an endorsement of Ed Yourdon.

I do not think you are acting out of malice, Diane. Your posts sometimes suggest you have not thought through your position. Your comments about how the moderators are trying to get rid of the "trolls" indicate this. And even if you decide to define "troll" in an easily understood manner, I would find it as repugnant as the infamous "n" word.

With all due respect, I'd ask you to consider how judgemental you have been towards others... particularly when you weigh in on a thread long enough to mock someone. It is possible to earn the respect of the forum, Diane, but it will require a different approach... and a gentler vocabulary.

Regards,

-- Mr. Decker (kcdecker@worldnet.att.net), July 01, 1999.

Two posts that cross in the night. I apologize and accept your apology. Can you (pretty please) stop use the "T" word?

Warm regards,

-- Mr. Decker (kcdecker@worldnet.att.net), July 01, 1999.

Super Polly ,

With you and the other trolls, I have the hardest time. And take the deepest issue. You have done nothing, but ridicule, heckle, attack, flame, and try to trash this forum.

If youll be honest with yourself, for once... you know what I say is true.

That said, I will EVEN apologize to Mutha, and you posting as another name, for inserting some [] bracketed comments very early on, asking you to stop trolling. That was wrong, and inappropriate, and TRUST me, I was roundly called on the carpet for it. I also, apologize to Cherri, even though I still saw she and Mutha alternating comments, very late one night. Perhaps they work together? What I Do know, and it distresses me, is they are trying very hard, especially you and Mutha, to trash this forum.

I did not set you up with made-up threads THAT ARE OUT OF ORDER. Someone did, and it links to your name. But, I apologize if that was truly NOT you. Someone... then... using your same ISP... made those posts. And I assumed YOU DID. Sorry.

HOW DID THE DATES GET OUT OF ORDER ON THOSE POSTS, DIANE? The posts were made at different times and days, but they are all linked to your name and ISPs (even and anonimizer has an ISP). That, and not the dates, is how I determined your were posting as Rosie, initially, then later came back and posted as the Sysop.

BTW, this is not a cult and Id appreciate it, if youd refrain from so condemning. I have an extreme dislike of cults, and would never join one.

Now, could you PLEASE quit trolling here? And you tick me off too, but Ill try to be calmer.

Thank you.

Diane

(More to come... taking this sequentially)

-- Diane J. Squire (sacredspaces@yahoo.com), July 01, 1999.

[With the LITTLE time left that we have I think we should devote it to SERIOUS discussion of y2k and preparations.

Your Pal, Ray]

Ray,

I see you saying this again and again, tell me Ray, who is stopping you from doing that? Mr. Decker? Flint? Me? You? For somebody who is so worried about the lack of time and discussion of preps, why did you WASTE so much time harping at Cherri over her polly report? That was time that could have been spent talking about rice and beans. Why do you waste valuable time with this nonsense Ray? Shouldn't you have started some threads about preps instead of chiming in on this silliness? Time is short!

Your best friend,

-- Unc D (unkeed@yahoo.com), July 01, 1999.

Diane,

Throw not pearls before the pollies and troll swine that seek to do nothing but disrupt the intent of this forum.

They have NO PLACE HERE.

This forum is NOT A DEMOCRACY...that would be MOB RULE and by the accounts of these swinish trolls like the new JBD incarnation corrine1 and the condescending Decker, their mob attempts at disruption serves only to diminish this forum. There are other avenues and forums they can populate. You folks worry too much about keeping the 1st Ammendment intact through this forum. In reality Diane, you don't have to defend that right on a privately run forum. Demanding specific rules of conduct and discussion is YOUR RIGHT as a SYOP. If there are those that don't like it, they can move and speak freely somewhere else. Freedom of speech is not limited to Timebomb2000.

Discussing even whether or not Y2K IS a problem was not the intention of this forum. I note:Founded by computer expert and noted author, Ed Yourdon:

This forum is intended for people who are concerned about the impact of the Y2000 problem on their personal lives, and who want to discuss various fallback contingency plans with other like-minded people."

Mr. Yourdon and you thus far have allowed of your own benevolence, pollyannas, debunkers and trolls to post without restraint. I say enough is enough.

What's the point of this forum if you have to weed through demouguoging sludge and debunking information from those that are convinced Y2K is a non-issue and that we "doomers" are cultists and dangerous? They want us to go away. They want this forum stopped. Why do we have to tolerate them at all?

I thought this forum was about fallback planning with like-minded people? That doesn't mean only those sharing a Milne scenario, but the posts of Hardliner, Arnie Rimmer, Hallyx and others like them that are concerned about the impact of Y2K problems but are not subscribers to TEOTWAWKI, are excellent examples of the kind of debate and info- sharing

This forum needs to get back to the intended audience and mission it was started for. Hell, I would appreciate it if this forum could go back to what it was back last August-September!!! It's JULY 1999!!! The time for endless debate and troll dodging is over!!!

Let's get back to the reason Ed started this forum in the first place.

And those that don't like it (namely those that wish to spew venom and division) can take a hike to somewheres else. Who cares if they scream at us and decry that we're Nazis? They think that anyway! I don't see ANY tolerance or freedom of expression over at Debunkers or Biffy's...why should they demand it from us?

Time to get back to the original intent of this forum Diane. You've had my support for a long time...you still have it. No need to apologize...it's time for tough love. You have nothing to be guilty of. Let's do some good, weed-out the chaff and save some lives.

-- HadEnufaDem (notakinit@ny.more), July 01, 1999.

Mr. Decker,

Id be more than happy to not use the T or P or D words.

;-D

What then, would you call these?...

#1
My Declaration of Undying Love for Die Ann Squire

http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id= 0011ZT

#2
My Declaration of Undying Love for Die Ann Squire

http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id= 0011ZV

...And do they have any place here, and what would you DO about that kind of attacking?

Diane

-- Diane J. Squire (sacredspaces@yahoo.com), July 01, 1999.

Mr. Decker,

To continue...

With all due respect, I'd ask you to consider how judgemental you have been towards others... particularly when you weigh in on a thread long enough to mock someone. It is possible to earn the respect of the forum, Diane, but it will require a different approach... and a gentler vocabulary.

My judgement has been combined with an extreme sadness, vacillating towards anger, and at other times a shrugging of the shoulders, at those who really WANT to spray paint this forum with grafitti... and THOSE WHO APPEAR TO CONDONE THOSE ACTIONS. It has appeared, Mr. Decker, that you did.

Now, clearly, you have some sway over on the De Bunking forum. Could you please hold a frank discussion with them and ask them to stop trying to trash this place?

And conversely, Ill ask that posters here try to be more, civil, but that is then, their choice, not mine.

Guidelines are posted. And I HATE rules. Yuck!

Even though you, and some see Y2K as no more than a bump, I and others DO NOT. To each their own assesment. However the diversity of thought and opinion here, though ALL over the map, is still a microcosim of the macrocosim. Sorta like this country. Can we please all agree to disagree?

Its up to individual posters to take responsibility for their own actions, and reactions.

No one else can make that choice for them.

Diane, ditto por moi

-- Diane J. Squire (sacredspaces@yahoo.com), July 01, 1999.

Diane and others

Look and see! You are on Candid Camera! Better brush the teeth and hair!

Debunking Y2k webboard - and yet another vs. SUPER POLLY.

-- Brian (imager@home.com), July 01, 1999.

I don't know about you Unc, but I am getting an awful bad taste in my mouth just reading this thread.

Diane, I remember your first post on this board. Do you? As I recall it, you said you wanted to learn more about Y2K and were worried about how bad it would be. You wanted information, and not just about storing food. (How much is there to say on that subject, anyhow? Can it, dry it, freeze dry it or smoke it. And keep insects and rodents out of it. That about covers the nonelectric storage methods.) I watched you go down to an '8', then come back up to a '5'. Now you are so defensive that you seem to take it as a personal insult if someone disagrees with you. And you are taking a great deal of satisfaction if someone else insults or harasses people who have ideas you don't agree with.

Your early posts were filled with a lot of oneness, and advancing in the spirit ideas. Now I don't know about you, but I don't know of any spiritual system in the world that approves of the type of personality changes you have gone through in the last 6 months. I urge you to step back and relax for a while, go on a retreat or something. If you keep this up, you will have a nervous breakdown before 1/1/2000 gets here.

You are probably going to take this as a personal attack. It isn't. I really am concerned about you.

-- Paul Davis (davisp1953@yahoo.com), July 01, 1999.

Diane,

With all due respect dear, you are playing THEIR game.

Remember that little U.S. policy of "Not Negotiating With Terrorists"? I suggest that you employ that policy towards the debunkers that wish to take this forum hostage.

You're wasting your time apologizing all over the place to these people. You're playing their game. And while you may be sincere and earnest in your efforts, I assure you that they are not. They are not governed by decency or ethics, they are on a mission to destroy, debunk and divide this forum. In their eyes, those that hold Y2K is going to be a problem are EVIL, and need to be silenced. That's their agenda, that's their mission. You're not going to change their minds about being civil on this forum.

Doing so will only invite a debunker Trojan Horse. It's too late for niceties. Ge the forum back to its original intent and purpose.

Waste not any time on the uncivil and condescending pollyannas, trolls and disrupters. They can spend their time debunking this forum on THEIR site that is DEDICATED to debunking Y2K. This is not a debunking Y2K forum.

You're being set-up and being pulled around by your nose with this apologizing stint with Decker, and though your intentions are noble and good, his consescending tone gives away his intent..You're being PLAYED.

Do not negotiate with terrorists or debunking trolls.

You simply rid yourself and all of us of their scourge.

Keep your chin up girl. They attack you because you give them quarter, they see a weak spot and are exploiting it.

You have nothing to apologize for. You IMO are the most level, fair and gracious poster on this board. I hate to see what they are doing with you.

Don't play their game. Zero tolerace. It will save lives.

-- HadEnufaDem (notakinit@ny.more), July 01, 1999.

HadEnufaDem,

Exasperated, you say... What's the point of this forum if you have to weed through demouguoging sludge and debunking information from those that are convinced Y2K is a non-issue and that we "doomers" are cultists and dangerous? They want us to go away. They want this forum stopped. Why do we have to tolerate them at all? 

Yes, were ALL tired of the nonsense. But its really NOT a them versus us world. Its all inclusive. Rather like Y2K and all its myriad potentialities.

Do we have to tolerate the trash? No, in my opinion. Do we need to be open to all sides of the Y2K issue? Well, that does see the wiser thing to do. As long as it can remain reasonably, reasoned.

You say... Demanding specific rules of conduct and discussion is YOUR RIGHT as a SYOP. If there are those that don't like it, they can move and speak freely somewhere else. Freedom of speech is not limited to Timebomb2000.

While that may be so in the literal sense, I look at what is supposed to be my dual role here as more of being a caretaker, combined with my personal researching preference as an Information Navigator.

Pretty much it has been everybodys forum. Its the way Ed let it happen. Thats fine, with me to a point.

Where I and some others became very concerned, was when the repeated attacking started after Ed left. Since then, things have gone in waves.

As you say, This forum needs to get back to the intended audience and mission it was started for.

I agree... but then we all... or at least most of us need to agree on that as well.

You continue, I don't see ANY tolerance or freedom of expression over at Debunkers or Biffy's...why should they demand it from us?

It certainly looks that way. Tis a puzzlement.

You finish with...Time to get back to the original intent of this forum Diane. You've had my support for a long time...you still have it. No need to apologize...it's time for tough love. You have nothing to be guilty of. Let's do some good, weed-out the chaff and save some lives.

Okay, but, that also need to be the individual choice of most the posters here too. They and we are all what makes this place tick. Or not. In the final analysis.

5 months... and counting.

Diane

-- Diane J. Squire (sacredspaces@yahoo.com), July 01, 1999.

This entire thread is becoming some sort of mindgame that is being manipulated by the Master Troll -- Decker (and now his less polished understudy, Paul Davis). Don't take my word for it, just go to that stupid "debunking" site, where they are doing nearly live coverage and laughing their troll heads off.

Honest disagreement about what Y2K means, and what it will bring is something that all of us can handle, I am sure. But dealing with trolls like Decker and the rest of them does not even apply. The evidence of Decker talking "out of both sides of his mouth" as the saying goes (Andy's "double Decker" nickname is quite applicable) has been repeatedly documented. Again, just look at the "de-bunking" forum, see it for yourself.

Its as bad as Decker saying to the other trolls, "Watch what I am going to do", then he does it, then he reports back, "Wasn't that great? Now watch this, I'm going to 'apologize', and lets see if they buy it".

Decker is a troll. The most brilliant of them, who delights in causing turmoil to undermine the purpose of a Y2K preparation forum. Why? Many have suggested he is actually paid to do it. Personally, I think he just does it for the challenge. No matter.

Decker has offered to leave if the charter for the Yourdon forum be amended to more strongly emphasize that it is strictly for Y2K PREPARATION and nothing else. With just half a year left, I would recommend doing so -- that would probably go a long way to solve a lot of problems.

-- King of Spain (madrid@aol.com), July 01, 1999.

Paul Davis

As you said... Your early posts were filled with a lot of oneness, and advancing in the spirit ideas. Now I don't know about you, but I don't know of any spiritual system in the world that approves of the type of personality changes you have gone through in the last 6 months. I urge you to step back and relax for a while, go on a retreat or something. If you keep this up, you will have a nervous breakdown before 1/1/2000 gets here. ... You are probably going to take this as a personal attack. It isn't. I really am concerned about you.

Thank you for your concern. I agree, a short retreat, is in order. And I dont feel much oneness at the moment. More like splinters.

Since I came on last October, I have ceased to be a newbie. Do you remember the absolutely viscous attacks I received then? And they have continued, as they still do. It didnt/doesnt seem to matter, if Im more spirit-oriented or devolve into being less so with each story posted or each report researched. The attacks continue.

Like so many of us, we all see the potential harm Y2K repercussions can do to our local areas, or national and international ones.

There is more cover-up and spin and hiding and vested interests going on at all levels of our society, than most of us had any idea of, and that studying the Y2K issues have brought to the surface of our consciousness.

It looks to be a regular mess. And may be come more so, as the next months roll by.

Diane

-- Diane J. Squire (sacredspaces@yahoo.com), July 01, 1999.

HadEnufaDem... 2

Actually, Id like an end the game. But that cannot happen, unless and until, they stop... or the the regular posters here say ENOUGH. Back to Y2K.

You say... You're wasting your time apologizing all over the place to these people.

Maybe yes, maybe no. Actually, Im more apologizing to the regular posters HERE, and explaining how this evolved, so we can all, those that choose to do so, start paddling in the downstream direction.

As you state... They are not governed by decency or ethics, they are on a mission to destroy, debunk and divide this forum. In their eyes, those that hold Y2K is going to be a problem are EVIL, and need to be silenced. That's their agenda, that's their mission. You're not going to change their minds about being civil on this forum.

Im not trying to change their minds, they wont change. But we can.

Id like support in changing ours. Yes, most, not all, there want to destroy this place. Theyve made some inroads. But nothing that cant be changed by us, as a group, if we choose to be resilient.

Its all about choices... one more time. And Y2K

Diane

-- Diane J. Squire (sacredspaces@yahoo.com), July 01, 1999.

King of Spain, The mindgame may appear to be manipulated by them. But its not. Ill go over and look later, maybe tomorrow, but the truth is, if because of this, they OUT themselves. Then... thats perfect.

And about time.

You indicate... Decker has offered to leave if the charter for the Yourdon forum be amended to more strongly emphasize that it is strictly for Y2K PREPARATION and nothing else. With just half a year left, I would recommend doing so -- that would probably go a long way to solve a lot of problems.

Well, I would say, its up to the Forum if we choose to permit Mr. Decker or anyone else to dictate... terms.

Perhaps, there are better choices. Its up to us. Not them.

Diane

-- Diane J. Squire (sacredspaces@yahoo.com), July 01, 1999.

Okay Diane,

Then I second King of Spain's motion to emphasise on Y2K preparation and news and dump the debunkers and trolls.

Do I hear a third?

-- HadEnufaDem (notakinit@ny.more), July 01, 1999.

Di

You care too much what others think of you, follow my lead and learn not to give a shit.

It's fun that way.

-- Unc D (unkeed@yahoo.com), July 01, 1999.

don't piss me off-or i will sue your hillbilly ass=/

-- hope. (dogs@zianet.com), July 01, 1999.

Unc D...

Maybe it's because "Men Are From Mars, Women Are From Venus?"

;-D

Simplicity, within complexity. And vice versa.

Diane

-- Diane J. Squire (sacredspaces@yahoo.com), July 01, 1999.

How come Dreck always ends up making himself out to be a victim? He blames the people who flame him for his loss of temper. See what you made him do? You broke his cookie and he got mad. This is a spoiled child who is used to getting his way by tantrum and manipulation. He won't quit unless you agree with him. He wants to be banned from this board so he can say "See, I told you so." Even before he posted here, he scorned the founder of this board and, by extension, the forum participants. Dreck has not changed his mind and is here to show us the error of our ways --

http://www.smu.edu/cgi-bin/Nova/get/gn/901/2.html

Under the rules of logic, the person making the assertion has the burden of proof. Clearly, Mr. Yourdon is the one suggesting that January 1, 2000, will change the status quo. He has the burden of proof... a burden he has failed to bear.

Many of his "followers" use the same logical fallacy... challenge nonbelievers to "prove" devices will work after the Y2K deadline. They also use speculation, suspicion and conjecture rather than data. "I think there's a chance" is subsituted for "I have definitively proven."

Mr. Yourdon also has tried to leave himself an "out." We can call this the "Jennifer Defense" after his daughter.

"It's your decision."

If you use your non-related reputation as a computer programmer to raise anxiety and profit from the results of the fearmongering... you are trying influence the decision. At the very least, it is the ages old American practice of Hucksterism.

Mr. Decker

http://www.smu.edu/cgi-bin/Nova/get/gn/814/2.html

Date: Feb 26, 14:14

Next week, the Masked Economist will weigh on the Jennifer Yourdon letter. I did read the first few pages... and she may be an economist. She has an inflated sense of her own knowledge and no sense of humor... almost certain signs (laughter).

I love this quote, "... he is not a trained economist. I am. Are you?" Economics debate, my friends, has moved to the local playground.

One cannot dispute her admiration of her father, a man who's "expertise in various areas of technology... is generally undisputed." One can only hope she never stumbles onto this forum.

If you have the patience to read her entire letter, you can easily see why economics is called the "dismal science." We are an unforgiveably boring lot. In the words of a distinguished colleague, "Economic theory can be divided into two categories: 1) obvious 2) wrong." In another era, "If you laid every economist end to end, you wouldn't reach a conclusion." (My end-of-the-week economist humor.)

Back to Ms. Yourdon, to do her justice, I really need to wade through her entire missive. A thoughtful response is better than a "shoot from the hip" critique. Please be patient as I enjoy an Internet-free weekend in the country."

Warm regards,

Mr. Decker

-- OutingsR (us@here.yar), July 01, 1999.

OutingsR,

Can you hold the "D" slavo's for awhile? I need a latte.

;-D

Let's declare a "cease fire" please.

Everybody in the Y2K "game room" (or is that war room) needs a time out for... reflection.

Sysop #2, your turn for awhile.

Diane

-- Diane J. Squire (sacredspaces@yahoo.com), July 01, 1999.

Unc D commented:

"I see you saying this again and again, tell me Ray, who is stopping you from doing that? "

Unc D you dope, show me where I said this two other times!!

With regard to Cherri, she made a commitment after which she spent an enormous amount of time spewing out her BS on this forum and then trashed her commitment. She simply was not professionally up to the task.

Anything Else Unc D(ope)

-- Ray (ray@totacc.com), July 01, 1999.

To: Paul Davis

Sir I am very concerned about *you*. You're worried the forum moderators will delete the 'Project Sunburst' thread as if someone here is a member of that group or that people here condone that type of behavior. Not true.

You worry that unnamed persons start new threads and post messages here just to push any good news articles posted about Y2k out of sight. Nope. This is a busy forum.

You find it unusual that the top six posters to TB2000 have contributed 11% of the messages. I'd wager the top six posters at GNIABFI or Debunking have posted more than 11% of its messages.

You've lurched from being worried about Y2k to being worried about Y2k panic. The news about Y2k is good isn't it? Cheer up! Don't worry about panic.

-- Stay (calm@cool.collected), July 01, 1999.

Happy to oblige, Diane. Until Decker starts sneering again. BTW I'd suggest a good belt of Glenfiddich, straight up, instead of that latte -- much better choice IMHO!

-- OutingsR (us@here.yar), July 01, 1999.

I don't actually want Decker to go. His covert posts and skilled ability to hide behind his "Mister Manners" mask, only helps me to root out which of our like minded folk, are gullible. Plus, he's so incredibly shallow and insincere I find it amusing. "He has a good mind and offers well spoken conversation" Should this justify overlooking his obvious two-faced character defect? Wheeeewwwww. Hope some will be able to choose up teams of potentially needed support groups *far* better than that in the future, if required. Is this a personal attack? You betcha, take it like a man. I'm off to shovel mud.......out of my creek-flooded barn, that is!!!!!!

-- Will continue (farming@home.com), July 01, 1999.

"I see you saying this again....

[Hardliner, IMHO I believe that time grows short with regard to y2k and that our efforts should be directed at asisting others to understand the potential gravity of the situation. In addition we should be helping everyone in their preparations. Ray

-- Ray (ray@totacc.com), June 30, 1999.]

and again,

[Flint, THANKS for including me with the likes of Andy, King of Spain and Will Continue, it is indeed an HONOR!!. With the LITTLE time left that we have I think we should devote it to SERIOUS discussion of y2k and preparations. Your Pal, Ray

-- Ray (ray@totacc.com), July 01, 1999.]

That's two in two days, not exactly what you requested, but time is short Ray, it's a wastin' and you should be talking about preps and the serious issues of Y2K rather than this foolishness. Please stop it now, and move on to the subject of beans.

Thank you.

Your thorn, Unc

-- Unc D (unkeed@yahoo.com), July 01, 1999.

Outings, you're obviously a man of taste and discretion. Though p'raps Ms. Squire would prefer just a wee bit of Drambuie, just to take the chill off the Northern California night. 8-}]

Single malt Scotch and excellent liqueurs: essential items in any well-stocked "hoard"...

-- Mac (sneak@lurk.hid), July 01, 1999.

Unc D, OK guess I am pushing this fact. Expect MORE SOON. Looks like you are a man on a mission. How come no comment about the illustrious Cherri?

Now Unc ,D take a look at the article I just posted about the US Army, this should warm the cockles of your heart. No need to expedite any preps based on this bit of news.

Your Pal, Ray

-- Ray (ray@totacc.com), July 01, 1999.

Mac -- should have known, with a name like yours. Yes, Drambuie for Ms. S in a mini-balloon, slightly warmed by the palm of the hand, held in the mouth just a wee bit too long -- nectar of the gods. Those Scots, up there in the peat country, know what to do about lack of creature comforts! Mac, it's about time you started a thread on essential stash booze.

-- OutingsR (us@here.yar), July 01, 1999.

I'm not sure, but based on the increase of threads like this one, I think we may ALL be going a little crazy. Must be Y2K cabin fever come early...

-- a (a@a.a), July 01, 1999.

Will continue: I love it when you talk about mud.

-- King of Spain (madrid@aol.com), July 01, 1999.

I will say this... Diane had the personal integrity to apologize. And I look forward to her studious avoidance of the word "troll."

Obviously, not everyone shares her willingness to step forward. As to some of the individual comments. "Spain," I look forward to an honest disagreement, however, it would require you taking a position on Y2K... not just posting your personal opinion of me. I will look for your statement on a new thread. By the way, you have your wish... a Y2K preparation forum. It's not of particular interest to me, but I wish the new forum well.

"There is more cover-up and spin and hiding and vested interests going on at all levels of our society, than most of us had any idea of, and that studying the Y2K issues have brought to the surface of our consciousness." I'd love to see your hard evidence of this cover- up, Diane. Seriously.

"As you state... They are not governed by decency or ethics, they are on a mission to destroy, debunk and divide this forum. In their eyes, those that hold Y2K is going to be a problem are EVIL, and need to be silenced. That's their agenda, that's their mission. You're not going to change their minds about being civil on this forum."

I think little is accomplished by the "us" versus "them" rhetoric. The people I actually met in Virginia were pleasant and quite sincere. They were certainly not evil. I think the forum will benefit from dropping the "they are out to destroy us" nonsense.

For the record, I did not blame others for my poor behavior. I took responsibility for my actions. Long before I started trading verbal punches, I tolerated a fair amount of personal attacks. This does not make me a victim nor am I crying foul. The baseless personal attacks were far more damaging to the credibility of the attacks than to me personally.

I forgot this and damaged my own credibility in the process.

And thank you, Outings, for being such a studious reader of my posts. I just wish you'd actually read my posts with a open mind instead of scanning for material you think you can use against me.

Regards,

-- Mr. Decker (kcdecker@worldnet.att.net), July 01, 1999.

troll alert

-- troll detective (@ .), July 02, 1999.

Dear Mr. D;

P'raps the "Us vs Them" mentality is a reasonable defense mechanism?

AS I recall, the denizens of this forum were blithely running on at the mouth errr keyboard, about the probability of an end to a world system as we know it, as well as questioning what we knew and what we suspected; and, POOF!, out of the cyber-ether, came some folks who were highly intent on changing what went on here. Granted, the first time your name graced this forum, it was under a rather, shall we say shaddowed, auspice? You were not loath to follow it up.

Later, several folks decided that it might be either fun or was their Divine Calling to cause serious problems here, unto the demise of this forum. I could provide links to statements which would establish the motives and goals, but these have been provided already.

Prior to the appearance of the folks with the specific agenda of destroying the forum or damaging its credibility, and readability, we had had several juvenalian attempts at intelectual masturbation, and a few at repetitive obscenity. We dealt with them in fairly summary fashion. We have NOT dealt with the postings by those whose avowed purposes have been the destruction or devolution of this forum in anywhere NEAR the same summary fashion.

Given the fairly exhaustive documentation of the goals of the denizens of the "Other Y2K Forum", p'raps this defensiveness, which has NOT been taken to its logical conclusion is both justified and WARRANTED.

Jest a Lurkin' ol' Football Player

Night Train

-- Night train (Night.Tr@in.lane), July 02, 1999.

Night Train,

This is a public forum created by an open invitation. (See Ed Yourdon's home page.) When I attend a public gathering and someone is telling a story about how the local bank is going to fail... I will speak up, particularly if I have knowledge of the local bank and the basis of the story is "there's this guy who has a friend whose wife's brother works with a guy who used to work at the bank. According to this guy. I'm sure he knows what he's talking about. The bank manager is stealing money to finance a run for mayor." This is the quality of some Y2K "evidence."

There has been ONE conversation documented about the "destruction" of this forum and it may or may not have been a tongue-in-cheek exchange. I respectfully suggest you dig up any other evidence you have, because one exchange between two people is mighty thin.

I have been accused of wanting to "destroy" the forum. This is patently false. I simply present an alternative viewpoint. This is frustrating because often people cannot argue with the substance of my writing... so they have chosen to attack me instead. The same has happened to Flint, Paul Davis, Hoffmiester, Norm and other individuals.

Please show me a list of these agitators, Night Train. Where are these people with the "avowed" rabble rousers? Where is your exhaustive documentation. Don't mention it unless you can bring it to the table.

Thanks.

Regards,

-- Mr. Decker (kcdecker@worldnet.att.net), July 02, 1999.

Deck, you didn't see the list over at diBunki?

-- lisa (lisa@weekend?.please?), July 02, 1999.

Ken,

Ah, nothing like a good nights sleep to refresh the soul!

Now that were chums, I just dont feel comfortable in calling you Mr. Decker. I seems so supercilious among friends, agreed? That and come to find out youre more than a decade younger than me, well, it seems kinda ludicrous. Ya know?

Now, about my comment... "There is more cover-up and spin and hiding and vested interests going on at all levels of our society, than most of us had any idea of, and that studying the Y2K issues have brought to the surface of our consciousness."

And your response... I'd love to see your hard evidence of this cover- up, Diane. Seriously.

Seriously, Ken... should you consider purchasing a pair of bi-focals any time soon? Kinda concerned about your depth perception.

Kindly then... since in the mid-1970s, I was once a High School English Teacher. Ill do you a favor and hint you in the direction of the TimeBomb 2000 archives. With over 140,000 posts since the forums inception, I would guesstimate that about half of them will lay the foundation for the hard evidence. Take some time out this July 4th weekend, sip a little wine, and bring yourself up-to-speed on the Y2K situation. Once youve accomplished that assignment, let me know, and well them have a common analysis background to serve as the basis for further discussions.

Fair, enough?

On to your comment.. I think the forum will benefit from dropping the "they are out to destroy us" nonsense. Yes, I agree.

Did you have that little chat yet with Doc Paulie about his approach to MIT in the effort to shut down this Forum? Sure would appreciate if youd report back to us. Then perhaps we could stamp this naughty little issue... case closed.

Now lets get cozy Ken. Uh, thats NOT a corinne invitation, BTW.

Your heartfelt statement.... Long before I started trading verbal punches, I tolerated a fair amount of personal attacks, is something I can REALLY relate to, Ken.

Just between, you, me and the fencepost, theres a few folks over at that other place you post at frequently, that really annoy a lot of people over here. In fact, they are downright vicious. One of cprs hot links to a Thomas Chittium (-1 sp) connects with a person who, uh, for the sake of argument, used to harass us here quite a bit. Me in particular. We suspected at the time, that he first landed as William Casey Jr. and later morphed into Jimmy Bagga Doughnuts,and than hed been eating one too many frosted doughnuts. Sugar rush. But, to quote Koskinen... Who knows for sure.

At any rate, INVAR launched into him real good, and he only lunks now and then, at least in that identity, and posts occasionally... like a couple days ago. (Thats when INVAR the gundark starts to growl from afar again, and well... cant say how long it would before the rope got untied and hed devour JBD like yesterdays cinnamon roll). Since then various forms of Ts have haunted this place. And, oddly enough, many hang out over there.

But, Ken, I understand. Those kinds of experiences are a lot to continue tolerating, and we have some folks here who could take a valium or two as well. I can sympathize with how you tripped over the deep end and started lashing out at everyone on this thread...

New forum posting guidelines

http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id= 0010XT

Yes, you did damage your credibility quiet a bit. Again, we can all relate. Mi tambien. Its good to see you take responsibility for your baseless personal attacks and poor behavior. Good job... At least you had the personal integrity to apologize too, sorta. Kudos!

Now, if youd really like to earn your Boy Scout merit badge, and redeem your TBY2K Forum stripes, so-to-speak, see what you can do about the Ts over at Doc and cprs hang out. They are welcome to post here, if they play nice.

Your ACTIONS, in assisting this endeavor, would speak louder than words. Volumes, in fact.

Just a friendly recommendation, Ken.

Best regards, bud,

Diane

-- Diane J. Squire (sacredspaces@yahoo.com), July 02, 1999.

Ken,

Now, on to the really important Y2K terminology... pertaining to your comment...

And I look forward to her studious avoidance of the word "troll." 

My undergrad degree was in English Lit (thats why later I had the earn the M.B.A. to compensate). So. Did a little research in my favorite resource...

Rogets Thesaurus

http://www.thesaurus.com/ roget/

With regards to the T word... and new choices... or if preferred semantics, we really need to find common ground and agree on what to call the combined--hecklers, flamers, attackers, disruptors, etc.-- since were both gonna stop using the word... TROLL. Right?

So following (below), are some options. My three favorites are:

1st Choice: pigwidgeon

2nd Choice: barghest

3rd Choice: tempus fugit

Lets make this a win-win situation, Ken.

You also pick the words you think are most representative, describing the actions of the Ters... and well see if we cant agree on a working word. Or not.

I will say that pigwidgeon trips nicely off the tongue.

I DO take research seriously, Ken. But you know that.

Ciao,

Diane, off... play day... Sysop #2 has the baton today

See...

A search in Rogets Thesaurus on the term troll found in 3 items.

Demon
Excerpt: "...; leprechaun, Cluricaune, troll, dwerger, sprite, ouphe, bad..."
[More]

http:// www.thesaurus.com/roget/VI/980.html

VI. WORDS RELATING TO THE SENTIMENT AND MORAL POWERS

V. RELIGIOUS AFFECTIONS

2. Mythological and other fabulous Deities and Powers

Demon.

[Nouns] demon, demonry, demonology; evil genius, fiend, familiar, daeva, devil; bad spirit, unclean spirit; cacodemon, incubus Eblis, shaitan, succubus and succuba; Frankenstein's monster; Titan, Shedim, Mephistopheles, Asmodeus, Moloch, Belial, Ahriman, fury, harpy; Friar Rush.

vampire, ghoul; afreet, barghest, Loki; ogre, ogress; gnome, gin, jinn, imp, deev, lamia; bogie, bogle; nis, kobold, flibbertigibbet, fairy, brownie, pixy, elf, dwarf, urchin; Puck, Robin Goodfellow; leprechaun, Cluricaune, troll, dwerger, sprite, ouphe, bad fairy, nix, nixie, pigwidgeon, will-o'-the wisp.

[Supernatural appearance] ghost, revenant, specter, apparition, spirit, shade, shadow, vision; hobglobin; wraith, spook, boggart, banshee, loup-garou, lemures; evil eye.

merman, mermaid, merfolk; siren; satyr, faun; manito, manitou, manitu.

[Adjectives] supernatural, weird, uncanny, unearthly, spectral; ghostly, ghost-like; elfin, elfish, elflike; fiendish, fiend-like; impish, demoniacal; haunted; pokerish [U.S.]

Rotation
Excerpt: "..., whirl, twirl, trundle, troll, bowl. roll up, furl; wallow,..."
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II. WORDS RELATING TO SPACE

I [Verbs] MOTION

4. Motion with reference to Direction

[Motion in a continued circle.] Rotation.

[Nouns] rotation, revolution, gyration, circulation, roll; circumrotation, circumvolution, circumgyration; volutation, circination, turbination, pirouette, convolution.

verticity, whir, whirl, eddy, vortex, whirlpool, gurge; countercurrent; cyclone, tornado; surge; vertigo, dizzy round; Maelstrom, Charybdis; Ixion.

wheel, screw, whirligig, rollingstone, windmill; top, teetotum; roller; flywheel; jack; caster.

axis, axle, spindle, pivot, pin, hinge, pole, swivel, gimbals, arbor, bobbin, mandrel.

[Science of rotary motion] trochilics.

[Verbs] rotate; roll along; revolve, spin; turn round; circumvolve; circulate, gyre, gyrate, wheel, whirl, twirl, trundle, troll, bowl.

roll up, furl; wallow, welter; box the compass; spin like a top, spin like a teetotum.

[Adjectives] rotatingv.; rotary, rotary; circumrotatory, trochilic, vertiginous, gyratory; vortical, vorticose.

[Adverbs] head over heels, round and round, like a horse in a mill.

Velocity
Excerpt: "...; bolt; trot, gallop, amble, troll, bound, flit, spring, dart..."
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II. WORDS RELATING TO SPACE

I [Verbs] MOTION

2. Degrees of Motion

Velocity.

[Nouns] velocity, speed, celerity; swiftness; rapidity, eagle speed; expedition (activity) [more]; pernicity; acceleration; haste [more].

spurt, rush, dash, race, steeple chase; smart rate, lively rate, swift rate; rattling rate, spanking rate, strapping rate, smart pace, lively pace, swift pace, rattling pace, spanking pace, straping pace; round pace; flying, flight.

lightning, light, electricity, wind; cannon ball, rocket, arrow, dart, hydrargyrum, quicksilver; telegraph, express train; torrent.

eagle, antelope, courser, race horse, gazelle, greyhound, hare, doe, squirrel, camel bird, chickaree, chipmunk, hackee [U.S.], ostrich, scorcher.

Mercury, Ariel, Camilla, Harlequin.

[Measurement of velocity] log, log line.

[Verbs] move quickly, trip, fisk; speed, hie, hasten, post, spank, scuttle; scud, scuddle; scour, scour the plain; scamper; run like mad, beat it; fly, race, run a race, cut away, shot, tear, whisk, sweep, skim, brush; cut along, bowl along; scorch; rush (be violent) [more]; dash on, dash off, dash forward; bolt; trot, gallop, amble, troll, bound, flit, spring, dart, boom; march in quick time, march in double time; ride hard, get over the ground.

hurry (hasten) [more]; accelerate, put on; quicken; quicken one's pace, mend one's pace; clap spurs to one's horse; make haste, make rapid strides, make forced marches, make the best of one's way; put one's best leg foremost, stir one's stumps, wing one's way, set off at a score; carry sail, crowd sail; go off like a shot, go like a shot, go ahead, gain ground; outstrip the wind, fly on the wings of the wind.

keep up with, keep pace with; outstrip [more]; outmarch.

[Adjectives] fast, speedy, swift, rapid, quick, fleet; aliped; nimble, agile, expeditious; express; active [more]; flying, galloping; light footed, nimble footed; winged, eagle winged, mercurial, electric, telegraphic; light-legged, light of heel; swift as an arrow; quick as lightning, quick as a thought.

[Adverbs] swiftly; with speed; apace; at a great rate, at full speed, at railway speed; full drive, full gallop; posthaste, in full sail, tantivy; trippingly; instantaneously [more].

under press of sail, under press of canvas, under press of sail and steam; velis et remis, on eagle's wing, in double quick time; with rapid strides, with giant strides; a pas de geant; in seven league boots; whip and spur; ventre a terre; as fast as one's legs will carry one, as fast as one's heels will carry one; as fast as one can lay legs to the grount, at the top of one;s speed; by leaps and bounds; with haste [more].

[Phrases] vires acquirit eundo; "I'll put a girdle about the earth in forty minutes" [M. [Nouns]D.]; "swifter than arrow from the Tartar's bow" [M. [Nouns]D.]; go like a bat out of hell; tempus fugit.

-- Diane J. Squire (sacredspaces@yahoo.com), July 02, 1999.

WAY too cool, Diane. Being 4 years younger than Deck, I have to resist the temptation to call him "bubba".

-- Lisa (lisa@work.now), July 02, 1999.

With apologies to Shakespeare:

What's in a name? That which we call a troll By any other name would smell as foul.

-- Old Git (anon@spamproblems.com), July 02, 1999.

Diane,

My original spectrum (All quoted definitions provided by Webster's Online):

"Idealist"

"One guided by ideals; especially : one that places ideals before practical considerations." In Y2K terms, those who contend there will be no problems.

"Optimist"

One inclined "to put the most favorable construction upon actions and events or to anticipate the best possible outcome." In Y2K terms, this is the "bump in the road" crowd.

"Realist"

One with a "concern for fact or reality and rejection of the impractical and visionary." In Y2K terms, this is the Ed Yardeni position. Recession, possible depression.

"Pessimist"

One inclined "to emphasize adverse aspects, conditions, and possibilities or to expect the worst possible outcome." This describes many of the moderate posters on this forum who anticipate serious negative impacts, but well short of social and economic meltdown. [I commonly use the term rather than "Doomer."]

"Survivalist"

"One who views survival as a primary objective; especially : one who has prepared to survive in the anarchy of an anticipated breakdown of society." In Y2K terms, these folks believe the chance of meltdown is worth making very extensive preparations. [Because some people react to 'survivalist,' I often use the term serious pessimist.]

"Fatalist"

One who feels "events are fixed in advance so that human beings are powerless to change them; also : a belief in or attitude determined by this doctrine." In Y2K terms, this is a Gary North position.

Honestly, I feel there are very few fatalists.

To your other comments. I have read a large amount of information on Y2K. I'd say the positive information outweighs the negative. Most of the negative data on Y2K is speculative. Of course, most of the postive information is self-reported. Despite my extensive reading I cannot find sufficient data to warrant the conclusions of the pessimists. In fact, the flow of information since the first of the year has been trending positive. There is no solid evidence the "iron triangle" will fail.

I posted on Debunker asking folks to talk about "destroying" this forum. While my first instinct is that your claim is something of a straw man, I am willing to explore the issue. See my post on Debunker.

Oh, and how do you feel about Andy, Ray, Will Continue, a, and the pessimists who engage in ongoing personal attacks?

I will not hold your degree in English against you. (humor) I think you might consider "troll" as a verb. (To fish by trailing a lure or baited hook from a moving boat.) I have no problem with characterizing an obvious attempt at "baiting" as trolling... although it is often difficult to judge intent. Fishing for responses is far different than being a ugly creature who lives under a bridge. Agreed? The best reponse to "trolling" is to ignore the post. Even dedicated fisherman move on when the fish aren't biting. Calling someone a "troll," however, serves little purpose, don't you think?

Regards,

-- Mr. Decker (kcdecker@worldnet.att.net), July 02, 1999.

Old Git,

Your confusion does not surprise me, particularly given your previous comparsion of the "trolls" on this forum to the Nazi brownshirts. Since you know Shakespeare, you might ask how your Jewish friends how they feel about the term "Shylock." I can see a post as "trolling," i.e. fishing for responses. Calling someone a "troll" is just a personal attack. While this is a slippery concept for you, Old Git, it is possible to disagree with what some says without impugning the person. Do you use "jew" to describe haggling for a lower price? Do you think this phrase is offensive? As you can tell, I have not forgotten your earlier comments and I respectfully ask you consider an apology for what I feel was a slur and remarks that can only be considered grossly insensitive to the Jewish people.

Regards,

-- Mr. Decker (kcdecker@worldnet.att.net), July 02, 1999.

He's masturbating again. Don't feed his fantasy.

-- Andy (2000EOD@prodigy.net), July 02, 1999.

Where's corrine when you need her? I kinda like her style.

-- Will continue (farming@home.com), July 02, 1999.

Mister Decker,

Just what manner of flim-flam are you attempting to perpetrate now?

First you scream your bleedin' head off about censorship and how wrong it is, and then you come back and ask that the terms, "troll", "polly" and "doomer" be censored from this forum!

Next you suggest, imply or otherwise attempt to convince us that the terms, "shylock" and "jew" should be censored as they are somehow offensive.

Do you have the foggiest idea what you're talking about? (or maybe do you know exactly what you're doing?)

One characteristic that is common to each and every one of your postings is that you attempt to manipulate the thoughts, speech or actions of those who populate this forum. To the best of my knowledge, you have never told us why you are here.

Give us a break!

-- Hardliner (searcher@internet.com), July 02, 1999.

Diane,

I see you as a gentle, caring and spiritual soul who would be a credit to any forum, but I would suggest to you that those very qualities that make you so attractive as a person also make you very vulnerable to such as Mister Decker.

We would all do well to recall the story of the young Commanche who found an injured rattlesnake and nursed it back to health.

As you would expect, one day after the snake had healed, he bit the boy.

"Why did you bite me after I so lovingly nursed you back to health", the dying young brave asked?

"Because I am a rattlesnake", was the reply.

-- Hardliner (searcher@internet.com), July 02, 1999.

Censorship

"The institution, system, or practice of censoring : the actions or practices of censors; especially : censorial control exercised repressively."

Censor (verb)

"To examine in order to suppress or delete anything considered objectionable."

Hello, Hardliner.

I asked Diane (my new pal) to refrain from using the term "troll." A polite request is not censorship. (See the above definition.) I did NOT ask her to exercise her power as a moderator to delete the term "troll" from anyone's posts. That would be censorship.

Personally, I think it would be nice if people avoided slurs, particularly those referring to race, religion, sexuality, etc. I think "Shylock" and "jew" (used as a verb) are offensive. I found Old Git's comparison of "trolls" to Nazi brownshirts offensive. While I think such slurs are ugly, I do not support censorship. On the other hand, I can certainly ask people (including Diane) to refrain.

If Diane felt I was being manipulative, I will gladly discuss the issue with her. Diane? I do admire her willingness to apologize and wish more individuals demonstrated her character.

I present a viewpoint, Hardliner. You may agree or disagree, but this is a marketplace of ideas. You don't need to buy what I am selling... nor does anyone else. As for my motivations, I have answered that question on several occasions. I do not represent any interests nor have I ever received compensation for writing or other activity associated with Y2K. If someone actually wishes to meet me in person, I can provide adequate proof of my claims. I am here because I find Y2K interesting. I think my views on Y2K are valid and that I represent an alternative to the serious pessmists. I have recieved a number of warm and supportive emails from people who are reluctant to post on this forum. They do not wish to be attacked by the forum bullies, but they appreciate my (usually) reasonable posts. I have no plans to visit the new preparation forum. As long as this remains an open forum, I will remain.

By the way, I do appreciate when you simply make your point. It is far easier to read than the red/black sentence-by-sentence commentary on my posts.

Regards,

-- Mr. Decker (kcdecker@worldnet.att.net), July 02, 1999.

I Am sORrY To eVErYBodY ThaT WaS evEr hURt bY The SEnsiBLe wiSDom Of thE DietEr!!!!!!! DIetEr sAYs beGOnE nOW!!!!!!! jaCKaLS!!!!!!!!

-- Dieter (questions@toask.com), July 02, 1999.