I read a lot of posts and threads here decrying the loss of liberty, and bemoaning the increased powers of our Big Brother. Many of these posts are written with a decided religious bent, and with much hand wringing about how the system is too powerful, and how it is surpressing the freedoms of religion and Christianity.

These arguments usually express dissatisfaction with the following areas; attempted gun control, excess taxation, forfeiture laws, huge uncaring government bureaucracies, police excesses, federal agencies gone power hungry and out of control, national ID cards, etc.etc.etc.

Well folks, if you are one of those people who feel that way, you are very likely to be the very ones to blame for the mess that you have put yourselves (and the rest of us) into. Am I nuts? No.

Think drugs are evil? Think we should lock up the druggies? How about the people who gamble and place bets with bookies? Or how about prostitutes? Should we throw em in jail? What about the Johns who visit hookers? Into the clink for them? Should the porno stores be shut down? Run them out on a rail? Whaddya think? Hmmmmmm? Well? Howaboutit? Yes?

Well if you do, you have just signed over the power of good and evil to Uncle Sam. The only way to fight those crimes is by intruding into ALL of our lives, and creating huge police agencies with the powers to run roughshod of the civil liberties of us all. You see since there are no victims who will go to the police, the police have to spy on us to catch us in the act. This system, of course, takes a huge amount to money to run. Lots of equipment for spying, and lots of criminals to lock up you know. Jails are expensive.

And because making these behaviors crimes does not eliminate the demand for these services, organized crime is more than happy to step in and charge a premium price for them. Oh, and since most violent crime and shooting are over drug money and turf, we may have to take away your guns. Sorry. For your own safety, dont you know.

So there we are. We've created the crimes and now we have created the agencies to combat them. And instead of winning, we have lost.

Happy dreams.

-- Unc D (unkeed@yahoo.com), June 09, 1999

Answers

Unc,

Right on the money...and very well said!

-- (c@c.c), June 09, 1999.

"Few things are harder to put up with than the annoyance of a good example"

--Mark Twain

-- R. Wright (blaklodg@hotmail.com), June 09, 1999.

I blame US east-coast Liberalism. In a society where "anything goes", well, anything goes. In the past, it was socially unacceptable to be queer, a whore, a drug-pusher, a gang-member, a child-molester. These days, the American Psychiatric Association (I believe that is the group) is "selling" the idea of "consensual adult- child" sex.

As long as "anything goes", only one of three things (in my opinion) can solve the problem:

• Eliminate laws (ultimate Liberalism!)
• Police-state (1984 scenario)
• Hard times (people would be required to work for a living, and "anything goes" wouldn't fly)

If Y2K doesn't lead to war and kill everyone, hopefully it will cause a return to better values. It would be nice to see Rep. Barney Frank go back into the "closet".

I by no means claim that conservatives are the cure, BTW. The US was, relatively speaking, founded on liberalism. It is important, though, to again distinguish between Socialism, Communism and Liberalism - and ELIMINATE Socialism and Communism in the US.

-- Anonymous99 (Anonymous99@Anonymous99.xxx), June 09, 1999.

"Think drugs are evil? Think we should lock up the druggies? How about the people who gamble and place bets with bookies? Or how about prostitutes? Should we throw em in jail? What about the Johns who visit hookers? Into the clink for them? Should the porno stores be shut down? Run them out on a rail? Whaddya think? Hmmmmmm? Well? Howaboutit? Yes?"

YES, YES and YES.... The breakdown of civilized society has come upon us when we give in to this. It's the giving in and "accepting" that causes the breakdown. It doesn't happen overnight but gradually and before you know it, it's OK as long as it doesn't hurt anyone. The problem is that it hurts everyone...example Columbine...how many of us were not affected by an event that happened thousands of miles away? ..."Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it." Matthew 7:13-14 It's harder to live on the narrow path and over the years when I have seen my friends stray from that path, I have been called narrowminded, conservative, right-winger etc. etc. Better to stand at the gate with those accolades than others I could think of. I want my Lord to say, "Well done good and faithful servant..." I do not on a regular basis espouse this so openly, but sometimes it just gets to me and I need to say something to vent. Hope not too many are offended, but if you are than maybe....

-- Diane (prepare@highlandtraders.com), June 09, 1999.

You can't outlaw malicious human behavior, and it's impossible to outlaw every single possibility of criminal activity where said humans exist. But lo and behold, Unc Sammy has aspired to do just that. Now they have tried to instill the ideas and feelings we have in our own hearts. I agree with Unc D... and I posted a link a while back on the subject. Maybe a little out of date for some of your more hipper political correctsters but it's worth a read:

http://eng.hss.cmu.edu/history/fighting-fascism/

Btw, I'm not religiously motivated. In fact it's sort of a family thing. My grandfather was exiled back to Russia for trying to start a new political party in the USA during the 1940's. I'm just trying to live up to the family name, which ironically I choose not to post here at this time on the Y2000 BB.

-- (workathome@atl.ga), June 09, 1999.

I have said many times that trying to legislate morality never works, not even if the penalty becomes absolutely enormous re the crime. Just look at the number of stonings for fornication that still go on in the Middle East - just a few years back a princess of the House of Saud was dragged into the street and shot in the back of the head for messing around with a local boy. Has never worked, and will not work in the future - no matter how much you wish for it to work, wishing will not make legislated morals acceptable to the people.

And such laws are deadly to any expression of personal freedom.

The rallying cry of a century ago was 'protect the family' - often heard by saloon workers as Carrie Nation and her groups broke up the liquor bottles at the bar. From that we got prohibition, drug laws, gambling laws, gun laws (yep, gun legislation came about as a result of prohibition swelling the ranks of organized crime) and laws about every aspect of human behaviour. OH GOLLY GEE - sure has been a reduction in crime and immoral behaviour since the turn of the century, now hasn't there?

Now the cry is 'protect the children', and we are expected to sit still while the modern Carrie Nation (who wears a social worker uniform) shoves even more restrictive crap down our collective throats.

Give it over, people, ALL these laws are bad, because they limit the freedom of everyone. And very few try to address the problem they are ostensibly passed to correct, anyhow.

Did prohibition pass laws again being drunk? No, it passed a law against ALL use of liquor. Were the drug laws intended to incarcerate addicts and force them to take treatment? No, they restriced the availability of drugs to everyone, addict or not. (Probably worth noting here that many/most drug users are NOT classed as addicts, and of the people classed as addicts, about 90% actually wind up quitting without any kind of treatment.)

Now a bunch of people claim I am pro-drug, pro-booze and a lot of other claptrap. NO, I am pro liberty. It is your life, and you have the right to screw it up if you want to.

-- Paul Davis (davisp1953@yahoo.com), June 09, 1999.

Well Unc, it looks like some of the posters on this thread have just proven your point. Those who deplore the breakdown of civilized society and want more jails and law enforcement, are the first to yell "unfair laws, discrimination, and Big Brother meddles too much," when their pet projects are subject to the law.

Ole Pat Roberson is jumping up and down for having to pay back taxes after losing his non-profit status, for passing out his Guide to Voters. Waa! Waa!

-- gilda (jess@listbot.com), June 09, 1999.

I agree totally with Unc D. Reading "Ain't Nobody's Business If You Do" by Peter McWilliams really explained the situation to me and made me realize how much of our collective energy is wasted in trying to control the behavior of others. If you think someone is doing something that offends God, let God do the punishing.

-- Pearlie Sweetcake (storestuff@home.now), June 09, 1999.

To Diane Highland trader,

You wrote:

[It doesn't happen overnight but gradually and before you know it, it's OK as long as it doesn't hurt anyone. The problem is that it hurts everyone...example Columbine...how many of us were not affected by an event that happened thousands of miles away? ..]

I am curious about a few things. How were you affected by that tragic event? What were the very real effects from that event that impacted on how you conducted your daily life?

Also, how does the murder of innocent people relate to throwing prostitutes, druggies, etc into jail? You say that you are in favor of throwing druggies into jail, presumably because their behavior affects you. If this is true would you please explain to me HOW their behavior affects you? Seriously, I really would like to know why you think that their behavior has such a terrible effect on your life that it qualifies for 5 years to life imprisonment?

-- Unc D (unkeed@yahoo.com), June 09, 1999.

I would like to suggest a book called "Corporate Predators ." Here is a quote from a book review. "Like the "most wanted" posters that used to adorn the walls of post offices, "Corporate Predators" identifies the more egregious perpetrators of corporate crime-- crime that inflicts far more damage on society than all the highly-publicized street crimes combined."

The media and Congress focus on crimes by individuals but pay scant attention to the larger crimes of corporations polluting the environment, causing health and safety hazards that kill, hurt, maim, as they buy up politicians from President to government lackey.

I'm sure corporate CEO's chuckle with glee at the moral majority worrying about street drugs, prostitution, gays, pornography, videos, music and all that trivial crap, while they continue on hell bent, without restraint from anyone, to take over the world's food supply and natural resources. I wish to hell people would get as indiginant about corporate crimes as they do swearing and sex and drugs and movies. But as long as the god fearing sheep focus on this moral, petty crap, which is none of their business, we will be the victims. Read "When Corporations Rule the World," by David Korten. When corporations own everything, the moral whiners will be the first to say, "My God, why didn't somebody do something!"

CEO's, according to Public Citizen, now earn 419 times the pay of average blue-collar workers, up from 42 times in in 1980. GE's John Welch made $83 million last year. From l990 to l994 the company raked $25.4 million in free assets and tax breaks from the federal government. And this is only one CEO and one company.

-- gilda (jess@listbot.com), June 09, 1999.

To Unc-D:

It all affects my life in the long term basis in a number of ways. I could get into a long debate but I won't 'cause I don't have time, but it's not that I am unfeeling to those who have these weaknesses, but I will not change my point of view about how I feel because of someone else's opinion. I stand by what I said. I have seen how most of these things have affected my family directly and indirectly. That is how it has affected me (without getting into personal detail). Diane

-- Diane (prepare@highlandtraders.com), June 10, 1999.