IF GOD IS ALMIGHTY

CAN HE THEN CREATE A ROCK THAT HE CANNOT LIFT?

-- PUNKER (GREG_PISAHOV@HOTMAIL.COM), January 18, 2005

Answers

Philoosphiclalyu motot queasion.

asee, God is lik the auhtorof a book. The word we inhabit exists in his iamgination, of sorts.

thus, the auhtor can imagine a rock so heavy he cant lift, BUT can then subsequently lift said ock.

Sort of a catch 22.

But augistine of Hippo answered this already centuries ago.

God can do all things logiclly possible to do with omnicience, and nothing that cotnradicts his omnecisnce ( In this case having a rock he cant lifet create dby himself) cannot be done.

You have just landed on the paradox of all powerful states. He is so powerful he cannot be weak.

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), January 18, 2005.

this is bull man if god wants he can make a fricken rock so heavy he cant even lift it... y not he doesnt need to lift it anyways.. whats the point of the question anywyas

-- thouroughly pissed (hanky111@hotmail.com), January 18, 2005.

This question is meaningless. It is like asking, "Is there something that is more than infinite?", or "Can God make a round square?", or "What is the smell of red?" It is simply a category mistake. It is logically impossible for God to make a rock too heavy for Himself to lift in the same way that it is logically impossible for there to be more than infinite, since infinite has no end. God's omnipotence does not mean that He can do what is logically impossible. He simply has the power to do anything that is actually possible-even if it is impossible for us. Any rock that God can make, He can control and put wherever He pleases. You can't ask for more power than that.

-- (faith01@myway.com), January 18, 2005.

But, God can create a "rock" that He cannot lift.

Free Will is that rock. God is powerful that He may create us with the freedom to choose to worship Him or not. If He can create us with Free Will, He can do anything He wishes--rocks or no rocks.

Oh, red smells like strawberries, cherries, roses, apples, and blood.

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-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), January 18, 2005.

No He cannot rod. It is logically impossible. God can lift any rock He makes.

-- (faith01@myway.com), January 18, 2005.

Of course, it is illogical, Faith. But, until you stop making God in our image and view Him in His image, logic has nothing at all to do with it. How in the world can we understand anything that is zillions of light years beyond our human comprehension? Duh!?....I dunno.

...................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), January 18, 2005.

You miss the point again rod. Duh., you really don't know!

-- (faith01@myway.com), January 18, 2005.

Faith:

"No He cannot rod. It is logically impossible. God can lift any rock He makes."

well, i could fashion an object that i could never, ever lift.

but does that makes me better than God?

couldn't He do that too?

-- Ian (ib@vertifgo.com), January 18, 2005.

Aparently noone read auguistine...

OK, God cannot act in a way what violates his own nature, but can suspend any law he wishes because he is God.

thus God can do all things logiclaly posisble for God, and not things logiclaly imposisble, suhc as lying...The rock falls into this category./

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), January 18, 2005.

Well, that's the real argument. God can create a rock that is a paradox, but is it in God's will to do so? Seems like it wouldn't.

Faith, I can grasp deeper into things you could not ever dream of. So, be humble.

..........

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), January 19, 2005.

No Ian.., God can lift anything he could make. God is infinite--he is not limited. He can lift anything, move anything and disintegrate whatever He so chooses. There is nothing he cannot do.

Creating a rock that He could not move is impossble in the same way that He cannot go beyond infinity.

-- (faith01@myway.com), January 19, 2005.

God is not limited by this universe, physics, or free interpretations of anything. God is not of this universe. The universe is from God and will behave that way God created it. God is the Almighty, even if it boggles the mind of mortals who try to figure Him out. If God can create you, He can create that paradoxical rock.

................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), January 19, 2005.

Whose idea is it to reason that logic is real in this existence? It is man's design that things have order because we believe that God has ordered everything we see. But, is it man or God who has designed order?

If it is God's design, then it would seem logical that God could re- design logic into something else if so desired. Man could also re- design his idea of logic. Hey, theories change, too. Have you ever heard of String Theory? 11 dimensions? Parallel Worlds? Gravity as the common denominator/force that could unite those parallel worlds? It boggles the mind. So, why couldn't God have designed such impossibilities? He is the only One with the power to design such logic--reality.

Jesus walked on water! How logical is that to a human mind?

..............

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), January 19, 2005.

Logic??

Try to explain the existence of everything in the universe, its Source, and its beginnings. Forget its end.

............

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), January 19, 2005.

You keep missing the point, rod.

-- (faith01@myway.com), January 19, 2005.

Now that we believe in a reality/existence, try to imagine a "void". In the beginning, there was a "void", nothing, zilch, nada. Is it possible to have this universe suddenly not exist? Is it possible for all of matter to suddenly not exist? That, too, is mind boggling.

............

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), January 19, 2005.

Can something come after infinity? Can God create something he cannot move?

That's mind boggling, rod.

-- (faith01@myway.com), January 19, 2005.

Just because you can't think outside your personal interpretations doesn't mean that I am missing YOUR points, Faith. I got your point a long time ago. There are extensions to primitive thinkings. Some of us tend to move a little faster. You could do the same, but you choose not to. This is why you reject Catholicism. It is too scary to allow yourself to expound into deep thought and those mysteries of God. It isn't safe for some. But, those questions need answers or all this Christianity is mytholgy. No, expand your thinking for a second.

Maybe your point needs further extrapolation?

............

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), January 19, 2005.

I think the point speaks for itself.

Ranting about things that have nothing to do with the point in question only serves to throw the issue aside.

God cannot create anything that He can't also move. He is not limited by your inability to think this through...

-- (faith01@myway.com), January 19, 2005.

If we are to believe your limited view, then God is not the Almighty and merely a member of Greek and Roman Mythology. You make God limited. You make God in Man's image. I do not subscribe to such nonsense.

..............

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), January 19, 2005.

I am sure that you have spent "time" "thinking" about your point, Faith. And you do make God to have human traits. Paradox exists because Man cannot connect the dots in reasoning. There is truth, which will be revealed to us, but the "time" and "place" has not yet arrived for us to break those mysteries. Ah! but you have already figured it out. Good for you. Look out your window and see if the hordes and masses have gathered at your "church", Faith.

..............

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), January 19, 2005.

If He couldn't move it, He wouldn't be God. Therefore the original question really means "can God create a situation in which He is not God?" Obviously, no.

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), January 19, 2005.

Very good Paul. I like that answer : )

-- (faith01@myway.com), January 19, 2005.

Then surely my previous post should be to your liking, Faith.

Well, that's the real argument. God can create a rock that is a paradox, but is it in God's will to do so? Seems like it wouldn't.

...............

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), January 19, 2005.

Not quite rod., you still seem to think that God could create a rock too heavy for Himself to move, but that He chooses not to. But the truth is that He simply cannot. It has nothing to do with His will-- but everything to do with who He is. God!

-- (faith01@myway.com), January 19, 2005.

Then, by your view, God is not all powerful, the Almighty.

............

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), January 19, 2005.

His will is to do good, not evil. So, it does have all to do with His will. If His will were not a factor, His power could do such a thing- -the rock.

...........

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), January 19, 2005.

How can God be more powerful than He is? His power is neverending. He can move anything ever placed in front of Himself by himself...

-- (faith01@myway.com), January 19, 2005.

Actually God has created super rocks: the Moon, the planets,....

But like any great mathematician like Archimedes, he uses celestial levers:gravity, centripital forces,magnetism,....

The Christian Yahwist

The Man of Yahweh

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), January 19, 2005.

Whatever Elpidio--that has nothing to do with the point. We aren't really trying to guess at how he might move the largest planet or anything for that matter..

The point is that God can move anything He could create. And since there is no limit to what God can create--then there is no limit to what He can move.

It is logically impossible for God to create beyond Himself--He is not limited. There is no weight that He cannot move, since He can move anything He can create. He is all powerful and not limited. That is the point.

rod wants to believe that there must be a certain weight limit on what God can move or lift. But God cannot be put on a limit in the same way that infinity cannot be limited.

-- (faith01@myway.com), January 19, 2005.

No, my point is that humans can never figure God out. Humans can only understand God in human terms. God does not fit into any logic and call it a day. God can only be understood in awe!. This thread was was designed to trip-up those who believe in God. The idea was to confuse us into having doubt in a Supreme Creator. We are forced to use our own personal logic to surmise the nature of God. That is simply ridiculous. It is important to me to understand that the mystery of His existence shall remain a mystery. When we figure Him out, we shall no longer have a need for God. We shall become God. That will never happen, of course, but go and tell that to them Mormons and Jehova Witness believers.

..........

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), January 19, 2005.

IF GOD IS ALMIGHTY

CAN HE THEN CREATE A ROCK THAT HE CANNOT LIFT?

Yes he can, It is actually simple. God creates a massive rock and then God creates a lower spirit named HE who can not lift it. Or if you want to get technical God can Create 2 HE's and allows one to make a rock that the other HE could not possibly lift.

Well, if I was God that is how I would do it. BUT needless to say................

-- Michael G. (NoEmail@Nowhere.no), January 19, 2005.

Hmmm.....

Christ on the cross. He could have lifted Himself out of that situation; He chose not to.

...........

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), January 20, 2005.

That shows Rod that Christ wasn't God.

The Christian Yahwist

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), January 20, 2005.

"That shows Rod that Christ wasn't God."

Elpidio,

You do not know what you are talking about...

There are numerous references in the New Testament about Jesus divinity and yet you continue to reject what has plainly been revealed in God's word...

Christ died in order to save us from our sins... His death on the cross does not prove your assertion that "Christ wasn't God". (See Romans 5:6-11).

-- Kevin Walker ("navyscporetired@comcast.net"), January 20, 2005.

God Yahweh cannot die, Kevin.

Besides, many prophecies our Christian Forefathers believed applied to Jesus actually did not.

90 % of Isaiah's prophecies are really not about Jesus and his Church,Kevin, but about King Hezekiah and his father Ahaz.

The only ones that I believe that apply to Jesus: Isaiah 53 and Isaiah 61.

Isaiah 40 could also apply to those who returned with Zerubbabel from Babylon in 515 BC.

Isaiah 7:14, 11,....appply to King Hezekiah.

chps 43-51 apply to Babylon and Cyrus. They are from an unknown prophet. Not from Isaiah. Isaiah's writings are from ch. 1-39. Isaiah, after ch. 40 is from different prophets.

That is why I most people have a hard time with scripture: how to separate the interpretation of the writer from a revelation from God Yahweh.

It has taken me 25 years to do so.

The Christian writers were also human, Kevin.

The Christian Yahwist

The Man of Yahweh

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), January 20, 2005.

“I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty.”

He who was seated on the throne said, “I am making everything new!” Then he said, “Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true.” (Revelation 1:8)

He said to me: “It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To him who is thirsty I will give to drink without cost from the spring of the water of life. He who overcomes will inherit all this, and I will be his God and he will be my son. (Rev. 21:6-7)

I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End. Rev. 22:13

When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: “Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last. I am the Living One; I was dead, and behold I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades. (Rev. 1:17-18)

Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus: Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death– even death on a cross! Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. (Phil 2:5-11)

-- (faith01@myway.com), January 20, 2005.

Elpidio,

You wrote, "God Yahweh cannot die, Kevin."

Please read what Faith posted above...

This refutes your contention that Jesus is not God...

Jesus stated He was God and that He died and is now alive... What part of that don't you understand???

"90 % of Isaiah's prophecies are really not about Jesus and his Church,Kevin, but about King Hezekiah and his father Ahaz."

Even if your contention is true, this does not mean that Jesus is not God...

"The only ones that I believe that apply to Jesus: Isaiah 53 and Isaiah 61."

Ok, so that is your opinion... Jesus stated He was God or else how could He have forgiven sins on the earth especially when the Jews knew that only God could forgive sin??? (See Mark 2:5-12)...

"That is why I most people have a hard time with scripture: how to separate the interpretation of the writer from a revelation from God Yahweh. It has taken me 25 years to do so."

It is also evident that it took you 25 years to learn error... For you most certainly do teach error when you say that Jesus is not God...

"The Christian writers were also human, Kevin."

And inspired by the Holy Spirit to write...

-- Kevin Walker ("navyscporetired@comcast.net"), January 20, 2005.

You cannot ever prove that, Kevin, since we don't have the originals. We have only revised copies.

Yes, Kevin, I read what faith had to say. She and I had a long discussion about it at http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=00CNLk Who is the Alpha and The Omega

I also did it here with David Ortiz http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=00Bpp5 For Elpidio-100 truths about Jesus

Also when David asked me to discuss my beliefs I did here http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=00CDeh The Way-The Church of Yahweh in Christ Jesus

If the Gospels did not depend on each other, then each one is an original. But since all of them are dependant on Mark, then Mark is based on an original. This original lost the resurrection section, Kevin.

Paul never saw the risen Jesus. He saw him in a vision, not in the flesh.

There is much to be discovered.

The Christian Yahwist

The Man of Yahweh

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), January 20, 2005.

Actually, the same paradox is embedded at the cross. Think about it.

God cannot lie.

God fortold (through prophets) the suffering of the Messiah.

Jesus (in theory) could have freed himself from the nails, but this would have made God's word false

or, a liar.

God cannot lie. God created a rock which he could not lift. (symbolic rock, of course.)

-- Luke Juarez (hubertdorm@yahoo.com), January 21, 2005.

On the other hand, my situational logic tells me there was no other way for God's plan to unfold. Yet, like Rod said, what is my logic compared to the creator of logic? How do I know that there wasn't an alternative solution in which God's word would be fufilled yet still give him power to save His son from the wicked hands of men? On the other hand, IF there existed (either in this realm or another) the possibility of such, wouldn't God have done that instead? On the other hand, although God is not limited by the laws which he creates (beit Mosiac, Grace, or Science), he does seem to operate inside these laws.

ie. God might have had a different plan for redemption had the requirement of sacrifice as atonement not been made by himself.

What I'm saying is that God Almighty creates a law that is limited in comparison with His power, yet he then works below or inside this limitation. So our God is Almighty and Jealous, yet humble and allowing.

"On the other hand... No! There is no other hand!" - Tevye the Milkman in "Fiddler on the Roof"

-- Luke Juarez (hubertdorm@yahoo.com), January 21, 2005.

Yes, God' will at hand.

..........

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), January 21, 2005.

"You cannot ever prove that, Kevin, since we don't have the originals. We have only revised copies."

If you really believe this Elpidio, then you might as well throw your Bible away because you can't believe it to be true since we only have "revised copies" as you allege...

If Jesus said in Matthew 24:35, "Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away."

and in 1 Peter 1:25, "But the word of the LORD endures forever..."

Since the words of our Lord Jesus Christ are preserved in the Bible you can rest assured that Jesus did not lie and His words have been preserved for us just as Jesus said they would when He made that statment...

You might as well go ahead and call Jesus a liar when He made that statement above since you are already doing this very thing when you say that He is not God...

-- Kevin Walker ("navyscporetired@comcast.net"), January 21, 2005.

"Paul never saw the risen Jesus. He saw him in a vision, not in the flesh."

Elpidio this is not true... Why did Paul say in 1 Corinthians 9:1, "Am I not an apostle? Am I not free? Have I not seen Jesus Christ our Lord?"

Paul could not have been an apostle of Jesus Christ if he did not see the resurrected Jesus for Peter said in Acts 1:21-22, "21 Therefore, of these men who have accompanied us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us, 22 beginning from the baptism of John to that day when He was taken up from us, one of these must become a witness with us of His resurrection."

Paul was an apostle of Jesus Christ and therefore was a witness of Jesus resurrection...

If you deny this, then you deny that Paul was an apostle...

-- k ("navyscporetired@comcast.net"), January 21, 2005.

That last post was by me... I hit the enter key too quickly...

-- Kevin Walker ("navyscporetired@comcast.net"), January 21, 2005.

Elpidio,

I suppose that you might as well go ahead and call Ananias a liar too for he said in Acts 9:17, "And Ananias went his way and entered the house; and laying his hands on him he said, "Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus, who appeared to you on the road as you came, has sent me that you may receive your sight and be filled with the Holy Spirit."

and also in Acts 22:14, "Then he said, 'The God of our fathers has chosen you that you should know His will, and see the Just One, and hear the voice of His mouth."

Paul saw the risen Jesus...

He even said so himself in 1 Corinthians 15:1-10, "1 Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you--unless you believed in vain. 3 For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures, 5 and that He was seen by Cephas, then by the twelve. 6 After that He was seen by over five hundred brethren at once, of whom the greater part remain to the present, but some have fallen asleep. 7 After that He was seen by James, then by all the apostles. 8Then last of all He was seen by me also, as by one born out of due time. 9 For I am the least of the apostles, who am not worthy to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. 10 But by the grace of God I am what I am, and His grace toward me was not in vain; but I labored more abundantly than they all, yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me."

Paul was an apostle of Christ therefore he saw not a vision of as you assert but he actually saw the risen Jesus...

-- Kevin Walker ("navyscporetired@comcast.net"), January 21, 2005.

You people...dumbfounded by the simplest of questions...

People actually use this question to "prove" that God does not exist.

This question is a paradox. It is MEANT to have no answer.

"Which came first, the chicken or the egg?"

This too is a paradox, but it does not mean that chickens and eggs do not exist. Do not be troubled by trifling matters.

-- . (.@..com), January 25, 2005.

Well perhaps you have been dumbfounded (.@..com), to discover that such a seemingly perplexing question is so perplexing after all.

-- (faith01@myway.com), January 25, 2005.

Oops., I meant *not* so perplexing afterall!!

-- (faith01@myway.com), January 25, 2005.

What you are trying to do is put an infinite God into a finite, 3 dimensional universe, and it just doesn't make sense. There is an APPARENT paradox, but not an actual one, and the reason for this is that we have a lack of understanding of the fullness of God. A simple example of this is Zeno's paradox: He said you can't swim across a pool, because you have to swim half-way across first, followed by half way across the other half, half-way across that, etc., which would bring you very close to, but never all the way across the pool.

There was no answer for this for 2000 years until the discovery (or invention ;-) ) of calculus wherein with better understanding the paradox vanished.

The same goes for paradoxes involving God, they only SEEM to be paradoxes because we don't understand enough to see the True answer. That's where faith comes in.

Besides, think about it for a second. If He made a rock that took up the whole universe, where would He stand when He went to lift it? The whole universe is filled with rock :-0

Frank

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), January 25, 2005.

God can make a rock that HE can't lift! Yes that he can do!! He can also lift that very same rock!!! God can "Deliberately" fail to lift that rock like say on a Tuesday... and then lift that rock on a Wednesday!! (The problem here is "Context"). God is ALMIGHTY in that he can do both possible and impossible things!!! God is both LOGICAL things, events, situations, problems etc and ILLOGICAL things, events, situations, problems etc so what seems to be illogical or impossible to human beings is actually possible and logical to God!!

-- Timmy K. Raymond (Timmyraymond@yahoo.com), February 22, 2005.

Daft question. Have you stopped beating your wife yet?. y/n A material thing has boundaries God is infinite in every direction. Christ thanked God for those He gave Him and said only one was lost, Judas. God cannot lie or contradict Himself, He could not save Judas because He gave Judas free will. God will not and cannot save everyone, Protestants, Heathens, Pagans beware....

Ming the Merciless

-- Ming the Merciless (dot4@hotmail.co.uk), February 22, 2005.