Who is the First and Last? Who is the Begining from the End?

Revelation 1:8 "I am the Alpha and Omega," says the Lord God, "Who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty."

Revelation 21:5-7 He who was seated on the throne said, "I am making everything new!" Then he said, "Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true." He said to me: "It is done. I am the Alpha and Omega, the begining and the End. To him who is thirsty I will give drink without cost from the spring of the water of life. He who overcomes will inherit all this, and I will be his God and he will be my son.

Revelation 22:13 "I am the Alpha and Omega, the First and the Last, the Begining and the End."

To find the answer--we turn to the Old Testament:

Isaiah 41:4--"Who has done this and carried it through, calling forth the generations from the begining? I, the LORD--with the first of them and with the last--I am He.

Isaiah 44:6--"This is what the LORD says--Israel's King and Redeemer, the LORD Almighty: I am the First and the Last; apart from me, there is no God.

In these passages it is "Jehovah of Hosts" who is "the first and the last." The passages in Revelation make it clear that the "Alpha and Omega is the First and Last and the Begining from the End. Right?

So we can conclude that it is Jehovah God who is speaking in the verses from Revelation--right?

Here is another...

Revelation 1:17-18 When I saw him. I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: "Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last. I am the Living One; I was dead, and behold I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades."

This must also be the *Alpha and Omega*--who is the First and Last and the Begining from the End. And remember what the First and Last says about Himself?

Here it is again:

--"This is what the LORD says--Israel's King and Redeemer, the LORD Almighty: I am the First and the Last; apart from me, there is no God.

So I ask this:

Can there be two Alpha and Omegas' who are the First and Last and the Begining from the End? No--there cannot be.

So in this verse--Jehovah God says:

Revelation 1:17-18 When I saw him. I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: "Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last. I am the Living One; I was dead, and behold I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades."

So my question is this--for Elpidio:

When did God die??

Asked by ("faith01@myway.com") on September 13, 2004.

-- faith (faith01@myway.com), September 15, 2004

Answers

Here Elpidio--I made it easy for you...

*Bump*

-- faith (faith01@myway.com), September 15, 2004.

I am doesn't always translate as God, as most Trinitarians believe. According to the Blue Bible, faith,

The words i am occur in 808 verses, including 337 exact phrase matches Thus A lot of these I am don't translate ego eimi. use of ego eimi (I am). At Exodus 3:14, the Septuagint uses Ego ei'mi Ho 'On (I am who is). This translates the Hebrew eheyeh asher eheyeh (I wil be who I will be), Hebrew has no present. Exodus in the next verse states God's name is Yahweh. Ex 3:15 Yahweh God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this [is] my name for ever,

The next quotations come from the Blue Bible. Not all cases of I am also involve Jesus or God Yahweh as Matthew 8:8-9 shows. Mat 8:8 The centurion answered and said, Lord, I am not worthy that thou shouldest come under my roofMat 8:9 For I am a man under authority, having soldiers under me

Here , God Yahweh speaks. Mat 22:32 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

Even in Matthew, he is viewed not as God by the Jews. Mat 27:43 He trusted in God; let him deliver him now, if he will have him: for he said, I am the Son of God.

The Christian Yahwist

PS: next step,faith, the Alpha and Omega of Revelation. Who is the speaker odf each verse.

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), September 15, 2004.

That's not what I asked Elpidio. I am not talking about *I Am.*

Did you read my post?

I asked you *who* is speaking in these verses?

Is Jehovah the Alpha and Omega? The Begining from the End and the First and Last?

Yes or no?

-- ("faith01@myway.com"), September 15, 2004.

Revelation, verse by verse. Even in Revelation, is easy to detect the speaker by noticing the use of the Septuagint ego eimi ho on (I am who is).

I am going to describe the speaker by the words Yahweh and Jesus in Bolface.

Yahweh Rev 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

Here the word of God doesn't refer to Jesus. Rev 1:9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Jesus But bolded section is not in my New Greek- English Interlinear New Testament, 1993 by Robert Brown and Philip W. Comfort, based on 26th edition of Kurt Aland, Mathew Black,...and others Greek New testament.

Rev 1:11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send [it] unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.

The following verses refer to Jesus

Jesus is called the son of man, not God, faith, here. He is also called the first and the last, not the first and the last who was who is who is to come of verse one.

Rev 1:13And in the midst of the seven candlesticks [one] like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.

Rev 1:17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:

Rev 1:18 I [am] he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

Rev 2:1 Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks;

Rev 2:8 And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive

Rev 2:12And to the angel of the church in Pergamos write; These things saith he which hath the sharp sword with two edges;

2:18And unto the angel of the church in Thyatira write; These things saith the Son of God, who hath his eyes like unto a flame of fire, and his feet [are] like fine brass;

Rev 2:23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.

(even Jesus here calls God father, faith) Rev 2:27And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

Rev 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

(Jesus descended from David through the flesh, that is, true son of Joseph. Geneologies came through the father then). Rev 3:7And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David

(Jesus calls God Yahweh his God. He will write God Yahweh's name on them that believe) Rev 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, [which is] new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and [I will write upon him] my new name overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

Not only does or will Jesus sit in God's throne, faith, but others ,too.

Rev 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

So for the fist 3 Chapters, I verse deals with yahweh, the rest with Jesus. Not once does Jesus deny God Yahweh is his father or usurp the place of Yahweh as God.

The Christian Yahwist

The Man of Yahweh

PS: More verses and Chapters from Revelation to come in order.

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), September 15, 2004.

So...um..Elpidio?

Is that a yes or no?

Let me break this up.

Who speaks here in Revelation 1:8:

"I am the Alpha and Omega," says the Lord God, "Who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty."

and here in Revelation 21:5-7?:

He who was seated on the throne said, "I am making everything new!" Then he said, "Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true." He said to me: "It is done. I am the Alpha and Omega, the begining and the End. To him who is thirsty I will give drink without cost from the spring of the water of life. He who overcomes will inherit all this, and I will be his God and he will be my son.

And here in Revelation 22:13?:

"I am the Alpha and Omega, the First and the Last, the Begining and the End."

And what about here in Isaiah 41:4--?:

"Who has done this and carried it through, calling forth the generations from the begining? I, the LORD--with the first of them and with the last--I am He.

And here in Isaiah 44:6--?:

"This is what the LORD says--Israel's King and Redeemer, the LORD Almighty: I am the First and the Last; apart from me, there is no God.

And here in Revelation 1:17-18?:

"When I saw him. I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: "Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last. I am the Living One; I was dead, and behold I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades."

And can you answer me this? Can there be two Alpha and Omegas' who are the First and Last and the Begining from the End?

So my question still remains, Elpidio:

When did God die??

-- (faith01@myway.com), September 15, 2004.

Yahweh is spoken of here. He created all things.

Rev 4:11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

These verses deal with Jesus. Again John, faith, states that Jesus descended from King David. That is why he is called a root, because he comes from David.

Rev 5:5 And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.

John calls Jesus a lamb

Rev 5:6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth

This lamb takes the scroll from Yahweh our God, faith. He wasn't sitting on the throne. Thus, he could not be Yahweh, faith.

5:7 And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.

the lamb is praised.

Rev 5:12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing Notice here faith that not only the lamb (Jesus) but Yahweh is praised.

Rev 5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, [be] unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

Again, God Yahweh is acclaimed for salvation besides the lamb (Jesus).

Rev 7:10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.

When it came time to worship, all worshipped Yahweh, not the lamb, faith. In the previous verses the lamb had been praised with yahweh. Now, only Yahweh gets worshipped.

Rev 7:11And all the angels stood round about the throne, and [about] the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God, 7:12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, [be] unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.

This concludes ch. 4-10. So far, only Yahweh got to be worshipped. Revelation also distinguished btween the lamb and Yahweh.

The Christian Yahwist

The Man of Yahweh

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), September 15, 2004.

You are not answering my questions Elpidio--why?

Please address the verses I am asking about. That is all I want.

Trying to confuse the issue won't work on me. Just answer the question. Who is speaking in the verses I asked about?

-- ("faith01@myway.com"), September 15, 2004.

Almost done, faith. Again, here the elders worship Yahweh, not the lamb (Jesus).

Rev 11:16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,

Again here Yahweh is called who is, was,is to come, which corresponds to verse 1:8 of revelation.

Rev 11:17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.

Again Jesus is called the son of man. Rev 14:14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud [one] sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

Here, the song is about Yahweh being praised. Jesus is not, since Moses is also mentioned. Do you think faith they are praising Moses as God too?

Rev 15:3And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous [are] thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true [are] thy ways, thou King of saints

Again here they Yahweh is praised, not Jesus.

Rev 16:7 And I heard another out of the altar say, Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous [are] thy judgments

Again the lamb is Jesus.He is also called King of Kings and Lord of Lords. He is never called God.He is not worshipped.

Rev 17:14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him [are] called, and chosen, and faithful.

But God Yahweh is worshipped.

Rev 19:4And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped God that sat on the throne, saying, Amen; Alleluia.

Even Jesus here joins in the chorus to praise Yahweh.

Rev 19:5 And a voice came out of the throne, saying, Praise our God, all ye his servants, and ye that fear him, both small and great.

Again, only God yahweh is worshipped and praised.

Rev 19:6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.

Jesus here is called faithful, not God. Rev 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him [was] called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

Here besides John 1:1, and I John, Jesus is called the Word of God. Never God.

19:13 And he [was] clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God

Many will sit on thrones to help in judging the people, not just Jesus.Here, people die for Jesus and for preaching about God. here word of God doesn't mean Jesus, but God's preaching, faith.

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and [I saw] the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God

Not only does God Yahweh dwell in Jesus, but in all of us who follow God Yahweh.

Rev 21:3And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God [is] with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, [and be] their God.

Is Jesus or God Yahweh speaking here? I believe is Yahweh.This follows from verse 3.Besides, this verse finishes that he will be his God and he his son of him that believes. Rev 21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

Only time the ego eimi ho on lacks who was, who is, who will be.

Rev 21:6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.

Rev 21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

Rev 22:1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb. They will worship not the lamb but Yahweh.It says him, not them.

Rev 22:3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him: Since as John says no one has seen God in John 1:8, now as spirits they wil be able to do so.

Rev 22:4 And they shall see his face; and his name [shall be] in their foreheads.

Since God is light.

Rev 22:5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.

Yahweh will send his angel. Rev 22:6 And he said unto me, These sayings [are] faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must shortly be done.

Rev 22:7 Behold, I come quickly: blessed [is] he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book.

Even the angel tells John to worship God Yahweh only.

Rev 22:9 Then saith he unto me, See [thou do it] not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.

These verses could apply both to God Yahweh and Jesus. They would apply to Jesus if this verse is connected to verse 16.

Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward [is] with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

Rev 22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

But even here, Jesus calls himself the root and offspring of David. Thus, negating the previous verses as being God yahweh himself.

Rev 22:16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, [and] the bright and morning star.

These concludes ch. 11-22.

Thus, faith. Never is Jesus is never said to be God Yahweh. Both Yahweh and Jesus are praised. But only God Yahweh is worshipped. Even Jesus calls God Yahweh his father. Calls Yahweh his God. He calls himself the root of david, thus making himself 100% man. That is, born of a sexual union between Joseph and Mary.

Only the 4 verses I put into question are the only ones we could spend the rest of hunmanity arguing about them. But for the rest, they show that Jesus is not God Yahweh.

The Christian Yahwist

The Man of Yahweh

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), September 15, 2004.

Now , answering your questions more directly, faith.

Can there be two Alpha and Omegas' who are the First and Last and the Begining from the End?

Yes, faith. Rev 1:8 is Yahweh as Isaiah testifies to, as you yourself quoted. There is only one God, Yahweh. He is the alpha and Omega of time. He was in the Beginning creating the universe. He will be at the end of humanity as human beings. Isa 44:6 Thus saith the Lord the King of Israel, and his redeemer Yahweh of the armies; I [am] the first, and I [am] the last; and beside me [there is] no God.

and Rev. 1:17 is Jesus.

Rev 1:17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:

Does this make Jesus then God, faith? No. He is a different type of alpha and omega. This is the alpha of those who came from the dead. He is the first fruits of what Paul calls grace.

Rev 2:8 And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive;

1Cr 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; 1Cr 15:4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: Even Paul calls himself I am what I am.

1Cr 15:10 But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace

as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

Here it staes that Jesus is the alpha (firstfruits) of the resurrection.

1Cr 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

Notice how Paul says Jesus will deliver the Kingdom of those saved by Grace to God. He never calls Jesus God.

1Cr 15:24 Then [cometh] the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

1Cr 15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

1Cr 15:26 The last enemy [that] shall be destroyed [is] death.

1Cr 15:27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under [him, it is] manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.

Even the son (Jesus) will be subjected to Yahweh.

1Cr 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

So in conclusion,faith: Two alphas, two Omegas. One of creation, Yahweh, the other of the resurrection, Jesus.

So is a lie that Revelation states that Jesus is God. He even called God his God. He even asks others to worship God Yahweh. Ne never asked to be worshipped. Jesus knws better.Even Paul reaffirms Jesus is not God Yahweh in his third oldest letter.(Galatians and Thessalonians are older).

So Yahweh is our God, Jesus is his first Son of the Resurrection under Grace.

The Christian yahwist

The Man of Yahweh

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), September 15, 2004.

You can ignore the clear revelation in Scripture and declare that there are two Alpha and Omegas if you need to Elpidio. I don't need to contort the Word of God or rewrite the Bible to fit false theology.

The revelation in Revelation is that Jesus is the Alpha and Omega-- the First and Last--the Begining from the End. For there is no other God--besides me..

Here, it is Jesus, refered to as the Lord God, who is the Alpha and Omega: Revelation 1:8 "I am the Alpha and Omega," says the Lord God, "Who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty."

-- ("faith01@myway.com"), September 15, 2004.

... "Behold, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to everyone according to what he has done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End. "Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city. Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood. "I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star."

-- ("faith01@myway.com"), September 15, 2004.

Well, faith,

You simply ignored the passage, like Protestants do. Verse 1:8 is not about Jesus but about Yahweh.

revelation ch. 1 states the purpose of the vision. It also states who are the characters.

Notice faith who gave the revelation (apocalypse) to Jesus? Yahweh.

It establishes 3 characters: Jesus, Yahweh, and the apostle John.

Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified [it] by his angel unto his servant John:

Here Word of God doesn't mean Jesus.

Rev 1:2 Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.

Again Revelation(Apocalypsis) makes it clear, following the Greek Septuagint, that God yahweh is the one who was,who is, and who will be.

The reason he is not Jeus, is because verse 1:5 states this salutation also is from Jesus. So verse 1:4 then cannot be from Jesus. Thus, it is from Yahweh. As Exodus 3:14 says in the Greek: I am the one who is.

Rev 1:4 John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace [be] unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne;

Jesus is the second one mentioned. He is called the faithful witness. The first begotten from the dead. Thus, Jesus is the alpha and Omega from the dead, faith. He is never mentioned as being God Yahweh.

Rev 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, [who is] the faithful witness, [and] the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

Here John says that God Yahweh is jesus father. Again he straesses theat praise is for Yahweh only.

Rev 1:6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him [be] glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

So from beginning to end, Revelation at no time states that we must worship Jesus as God Yahweh, faith.

It also deistinguishes who is the alpha of creation and the alpha from the dead.

The Christian Yahwist

The Man of Yahweh

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), September 15, 2004.

Wasn't this question taken care of by the Church in the earliest centuries?

-- Max Darity (arrowtouch@yahoo.com), September 15, 2004.

Well, faith, You simply ignored the passage, like Protestants do. Verse 1:8 is not about Jesus but about Yahweh.

But Elpidio--Jesus says he is the Alpha and Omega--the First and Last- the Begining from the End.

revelation ch. 1 states the purpose of the vision. It also states who are the characters.

Notice faith who gave the revelation (apocalypse) to Jesus? Yahweh.

It establishes 3 characters: Jesus, Yahweh, and the apostle John.

No Elpidio--the three characters are Jesus who is God--John--and an angel...

Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified [it] by his angel unto his servant John:

Here Word of God doesn't mean Jesus.

Rev 1:2 Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.

Again Revelation(Apocalypsis) makes it clear, following the Greek Septuagint, that God yahweh is the one who was,who is, and who will be.

The reason he is not Jeus, is because verse 1:5 states this salutation also is from Jesus. So verse 1:4 then cannot be from Jesus. Thus, it is from Yahweh. As Exodus 3:14 says in the Greek: I am the one who is.

Rev 1:4 John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace [be] unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne;

Jesus is the second one mentioned. He is called the faithful witness. The first begotten from the dead. Thus, Jesus is the alpha and Omega from the dead, faith. He is never mentioned as being God Yahweh.

Sorry Elpidio--but where does the Bible state that there are two Gods? Two Alpha and Omegas' who are the First and Last--the Begining from the End? I find that the Bible makes it clear that there is only One God--One Alpha and Omega who is the First and Last and the Begining from the End.

Isaiah 44:6:

"This is what the LORD says--Israel's King and Redeemer, the LORD Almighty: I am the First and the Last; apart from me, there is no God.

So how can you say that there are two?

Rev 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, [who is] the faithful witness, [and] the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

Here John says that God Yahweh is jesus father. Again he straesses theat praise is for Yahweh only.

Really? I agree--But you are saying that there are two Gods then.

Ya see Elpidio--if you deny that Jesus is God--then you are saying that in spite of the fact that God said he will not give His glory to another--he does anyway?

In Hebrews 1:1-6, I found that the Father says of his son, "Let all God's angels worship him." [I think that angels do not worship other angels, they worship God alone.]

"In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven. So he became as much superior to the angels as the name he has inherited is superior to theirs. For to which of the angels did God ever say, "You are my Son; today I have become your Father"? Or again, "I will be his Father, and he will be my Son"? And again, when God brings his firstborn into the world, he says, "Let all God's angels worship him."

Rev 1:6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him [be] glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

So from beginning to end, Revelation at no time states that we must worship Jesus as God Yahweh, faith.

You must have missed this:

Rev 14:7:--"Fear God and give him glory, because the hour of his judgment has come. Worship him who made the heavens, the earth, the sea and the springs of water." ...wouldn't that be the Word of God who is Jesus?

John 1:1-3:--In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. In him was life, and that life was the light of men. The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it.

Rev. 19:11-13:--I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and makes war. His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns. He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself. He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God."

It seems to me that we are told to worship God who made everything-- yet it would seem that the Word of God is who made everything., and the Word of God *is* Jesus!

You have a dilemma Elpidio. Because if you worship a different God, you are guilty of great sin. God says He will have no gods before Him and that we are to worship Him alone. Yet if you worship a second Alpha and Omega who is the Word of God...but who is not God--then you worship a false god.

Rev. 21:5-7:--He who was seated on the throne said, "I am making everything new!" Then he said, "Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true." He said to me: "It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To him who is thirsty I will give to drink without cost from the spring of the water of life. He who overcomes will inherit all this, and I will be his God and he will be my son.

Rev 22:12-16:--"Behold, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to everyone according to what he has done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End. "Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city. Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood. "I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star."

-- ("faith01@myway.com"), September 15, 2004.

No Max. Mark, Matthew , and Luke never see Jesus as the logos but as the son of man, same as Revelation (Apocalypsis).

Only I John and the revised Gospel of John using I John, made a connection of Jesus as the Logos.

Paul doesn't mention it. Peter doen't mention it. Neither does James or Judas, Jesus brothers.

The decision of 325 was political. It was made by the emperor, not the council, so says Eusebius of Caesarea.

That is why it can still be challenged,Max.

The Christian Yahwist

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), September 15, 2004.

You are wrong Elpidio--revelation reveals Jesus as the Word of God as well.

But you know what--no one can have a serious discussion with you about the Scriptures and what is revealed in them--if you simply declare that what doesn't fit *your* was somehow added in by someone-- or is a false translation or whatever excuse you make when you are confronted with obvious contradictions to your claims.

If you are going to use the Scriptures to support yourself--then you must accept the very same Scriptures when they prove you wrong. You can't just pick and choose what appeals to yourself.

That makes debating with you rather pointless. I find the perfect Revelation that shows you who the Alpha and Omega is--and then you declare there are two Alpha and Omegas'...I mean come on!!

-- ("faith01@myway.com"), September 15, 2004.

Here it is again Elpidio:

Rev. 19:11-13:--

I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and makes war. His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns. He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself. He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God."

-- ("faith01@myway.com"), September 15, 2004.

I never denied this verse applied to Jesus, faith. That is why I went over revelation, verse by verse to let you know whre I believe is talking: Yahweh or Jesus. If you scroll up, you will see this verse. I don't need to omit stuff that may compromise my beliefs, faith, to prove a point. I never had. That is why even Jehovah's witnesses skip my house and my mother's house each Saturday.

Here besides John 1:1, and I John, Jesus is called the Word of God. Never God.

19:13 And he [was] clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God

The Christian Yahwist

PS: I still love the challenge, faith. Sometimes in dialoguing with you I can see where I see a weakness or strength in my belief system. So I love dialoguing with you. Always feel free to question me onmy beliefs.

-- Elpidi Gonzalez (egononval@yahoo.com), September 15, 2004.

Just find how many times son of man is used as opposed to logos (Word) to refer to Jesus in revelation, faith?

The Christian Yahwist

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egononval@yahoo.com), September 15, 2004.

Elpidio--you fail to address or concede to my points.

There cannot be two Alpha and Omegas.

Show me where God reveals that He will share His glory with anyone else or where He says that there are two First and Lasts and Beginings from the End???

What or who do you think Jesus is?

If God is the Alpha and Omega--and Jesus reveals that He is the Alpha and Omega--what should that tell you?

It's an over-all teaching Elpidio--that you are missing.

-- ("faith01@myway.com"), September 15, 2004.

Also Elpidio--if Jesus is called the Word of God--and we know that the Word of God is God--what does that reveal to you?

You fail to recognize revelation when it is right in front of you. Instead--you isolate verses. The Scriptures don't work that way....all the Scriptures are God-breathed and form together to reveal one story...

-- ("faith01@myway.com"), September 15, 2004.

Many others, like these Sabbaterians, faith, also think the alpha and the Omega not necessarily imply Jesus is God Yahweh.

http://www.sabbatarian.com/Revelations/Revelation01-05.html

Book of revelation/Apocalypse as used by Sabbaterians

The Christian Yahwist

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), October 12, 2004.

So then Elpidio--when did God die?

Revelation 1:17-18?:

"When I saw him. I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: "Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last. I am the Living One; I was dead, and behold I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades."

You never did answer this very to-the-point question.....

-- ("faith01@myway.com"), October 12, 2004.

Never, faith. My God Yahweh never died.

Only Jesus died. Why? Because he is not God.

The Christian Yahwist

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), November 30, 2004.

But Elpidio..,

Who does the book of Revelation tell us is the Alpha and Omega? The First and the Last.,? The begining from the End??

It is God.

This is revelation Elpidio. We can see in this that Jesus is the first and the Last., the Begining from the End and the Alpha and Omega.

Unless there are two Alpha and Omegas--obviously the revelation is clear.

I know--you'll twist the Scriptures and claim that there are two Alpha and Omegas, Beginings from the End and First and Lasts now-- right?

This thread is a bit old.., why answer now?

-- (faith01@myway.com), November 30, 2004.