one of those good news / bad news sorts of things...

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Hi Folks,

I just posted a rather strongly worded rejoinder to 'sincere' 's second attack on me in the Paul Milne... thread. The smear campaign this guy has going is following the exact format that the white supremacists use to attack non-racist militia folks on usenet. They are trying to accomplish several things - including collecting information on me (he guessed wrong on the city again, did you notice?) and get a line on who my friends and allies might be.

[Big time thanks to Russ, btw, for jumping into the fray ahead of me...I owe you one my friend!]

Well we've known there have been neonazis on the board for some time, so that's not new. What *is* new, is that the neos don't engage in these sorts of personal attacks without reason. What that means is that TB2K is obviously having an effect in many areas of the country, especially small towns and rural areas which are the white supremacists' primary recruiting areas. It also means that the effects we are having include interfering with white supremacist recruiting efforts. Dunno about you, but from my perspective, that's a plus for us, no?

I'd expect this guy to continue to post this kind of stuff until he's blocked from the board - although they sometimes go away if humiliated sufficiently...which is why I ended my post the way I did. In any case, I'm sorry to all of you for having effectively dragged this guy in on my shoes and gotten him all over the virtual carpet!

Ah well, if nothing else, Russ, I think this means that those discussions you're running have become even more important than before, though I'd begin to watch for serious attempts to disrupt at least the one coming up thursday.

and I guess it's my turn to *sigh*

Arlin

-- Anonymous, June 14, 1999

Answers

I added something too Arlin...

#1 -- Why Paul Milne is a Polly (Category: Government)

http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id= 000w5S

Diane

(Time for a latte... what a DAY!)

-- Anonymous, June 14, 1999


ditto

Arlin -- could you spell out the connection you see between whatever success this forum has and "interfering with white supremacist efforts"?

It's not intuitive, for me anyway. How can a few thousand people (say) putting by a stash of supplies and gear -- some for 6 months, some for a week, some anywhere in between -- make any difference to those folks?

-- Anonymous, June 15, 1999


First off Thanks to Diane and Mike for their posts on the thread!

next to answer Tom's (very relevant) question:

Okay first you need a little background in how the white supremacists use the internet to recruit new members. They have two primary means of recruiting new members: 1. websites and usenet newsgroups in which they maintain a strong propaganda presence; and 2. by either lurking (more common) or attempting to participate (less common)in newsgroups and on sites where there are hot topics being discussed. It is this latter method that concerns us, since that's what they've been doing here.

In an environment such as TB2K we get a *lot* of different sorts of folks posting and even more lurking. The supremacists were (and probably still are) both actively trolling for new prospects and passively seeking out likely email addresses for people to be propagandized independently of anything that occurs on the board.

In the first instance you may remember that last summer Anonymous99 repeatedly boasted of being a racist until a number of us jumped all over him repeatedly...then he went to using the term 'racialist' for a while (supremacists somehow think that makes it all better), and from there simply made occaisional racist comments - remember back last spring when we were discussing possible problems should the essential services break down in DC, and Anonymous99 made a snide remark about "interesting how we managed to walk totally around the race issue in that discussion"? Also you may remember some of the racist remarks Mark Hillman made when he was a regular poster, and how he continued to post under the 'freeman' monniker, and in a few cases even espoused 'Freeman' myths concerning the law. Now everytime these guys did this sort of thing, they were ignored, laughed at, or jumped all over by the regulars - but the plain fact of the matter is that they didn't care about that, as long as they weren't made out to be total slime.

You see they already know that they aren't going to convince most people of anything, BUT what they *will* find, especially in high traffic areas such as TB2K are lurkers who will send them private email agreeing with them. Other folks they will attempt to recruit are those who are attacked for holding conservative political or religious beliefs (especially if the person being attacked does not appear to be very well educated, or very mature). They will also approach any conservative firearms owner - especially if that person has just been attacked by antigunners...and then of course anyone who might post a racist statement would also be studied to see if they could be approached.

Now normally, in the mainstream of our society, a board like ours would generate a tremendous number of opportunities for those sorts of recruiting. It's just that TB2K ain't a normal board - for one thing we have about the widest definition of normal this side of San Francisco. I mean we have everybody from conservative Christians to traditional pagans, to New Age folks to athiests, and while we certainly bicker, we all continue to contribute to the community. We also have everyone from the left side of the political spectrum all the way over to the Christian Coalition and a couple of conservative Catholic organizations that would give some folks here the heebee jeebees, and then on over to the libertarian folks who I guess are sort of the back side of the circle so to speak...

In other words, we may yell and shout and carry on, and call each other names occaisionally, but we're all working toward that common if illusive goal known as y2k preparation...and *that* is where the supremacists really have a problem. you see, we just aren't alienating people all that much...and the ones we do alienate almost never fall in any of their target groups.

Where my presence, and indeed the open presence of any member of the Constitutional militias is offensive to the white supremacists is that they attempt to sell themselves to many conservatives as the only game in town when it comes to armed community defense, etc, etc., and from that perspective the supremacists Y2K could really be a major, *major* recruiting tool. Could be, but you see on TB2K there are people who talk about firearms and self-defense, and they aren't shouted down or run off the board...and we don't drive off folks just because they aren't particularly well educated...not even if they think that there's going to be a nuclear war before the end of the year!

Then there's also a real live militia guy who posts regularly, and who has made it very clear that neither he nor any of his militia associates tolerate racism in any form...and now that guy has been asked to lead some discussions on home and community defense - teaching folks how to organize for themselves...in fact almost all of the good parts of TB2K are, in one way or another, teaching people things they need to know to organize their families, their friends, and hopefully their communities...all those different people leading all those different discussions...and if folks, especially less well educated folks, small town folks, rural folks, and conservative folks all learn to organize and prepare on their own, why the supremacists wont be able to pretend to be the only game in town anymore - in fact most towns wont even want them around period.

Even worse - as members of the supremacists target groups get drawn deeper into participation on the forum, they are drawn into regular interaction with a wide variety of people - all of whom are contributing members to this community...which means that the supremacists xenophobia card gets very difficult, if not impossible, to play against many of them...

so you see we're not only failing to drive people away, we're also integrating them into our community - we yourdonites may not all like each other, we may not all even accept all aspects of each other's lives, but my goodness don't we at least try to tolerate each other! and teaching tolerance is probably the worst possible crime of all from the supremacists point of view.

Not only are we having these sorts of effects, but they're affecting far more than a few thousand people - I've seen yourdonite material show up on at least four different Christian lists as well as used much of it in my own distribution to folks who distribute to other folks who...well you get the idea...and I'm sure that the reach of TB2K is at least as long in a lot of other directions as well.

It's late, and I'm rambling, 'cause I've been trying to write this while finishing several loads of laundry, but do you see that by doing what we're doing we're messing with the supremacist recruiting efforts, and that these chat sessions Russ has put together have the propensity to stymie even more of the supremacists efforts?

of course there's also the issue of the fact that they hate me personally, but that's another story entirely...and I doubt they would take the time to mess with me on the board just because of that...

ah well,

Arlin

-- Anonymous, June 15, 1999


Well,

Sincere is at it again, and now claims he/she knows me, or at least has seen me at some "events." If Sincere can give me the code for "GB" then I'll have to scratch my head a bit.

Oy vey!

#1 -- Why Paul Milne is a Polly (Category: Government)

http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id= 000w5S

Diane

-- Anonymous, June 15, 1999


Let's see if Mr. Anti-Arlin can answer our simple request on the Polly thread.

-- Anonymous, June 15, 1999


See also...

The "Sincere" Poster ON "Why Paul Milne IS A Polly " Thread

http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id= 000xQt



-- Anonymous, June 15, 1999


I'll be interested to see what happens with your questions - my initial bet is that he attempts to ignore them, but I guess we'll see. Diane - whatever that group/meeting/whatever is that he mentioned, do you allow nordic-type pagans to attend - if so, that may be the guise in which you know him.

Arlin

-- Anonymous, June 15, 1999


LOL,

No Arlin... never done ANY pagan type stuff or Wicca either (talk about strange!!) Ugh!

Angels, camping, having "sacred journey" adventures in the Grand Canyon, studying aspects of metaphysics, American Indian traditions (yes I can sage, smuge and sweat lodge) and ancient wisdom/knowledge coming down through the ages (esp. Egyptian, Coptic, etc.) has been my "thing."

IF they can tell me the "GB" thingy well... I'm still clueless! Sort'a. But I also bet they don't respond.

;-D

Diane

(Yikes... the time... gotta run!)

-- Anonymous, June 15, 1999


Bright Angel and Kaibob trails, on foot, July 73. Swam in the creek at the bottom, camped overnight. And you?

-- Anonymous, June 16, 1999

Robert,

Little Colorado River, down the Hopi/Navaho "hidden" salt canyon trail, with permission from elders, in July '94. Didn't carry enough water. Salt River... only one in North America. Group managed to make it down to Big Colorado & get helicoptered out. "Dicey" to say the least. And "quite" an adventure.

;-D

I could tell you true stories...

Diane

-- Anonymous, June 17, 1999



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