Why not take Him at his word?, why flap around the edges? Amazing indeed is His love, to allow Himself to be tortured. whoever eats My Flesh will have everlasting life, I tell you solemnly unless you eat My Flesh and drink My Blood you will not have life in you.

Ming the Merciless

-- Ming the Merciless (dot4@hotmail.co.uk), February 22, 2005

Answers

Uhm... yoyu had a point of some sort?

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), February 22, 2005.

Point being... Protestant ancestors were all Catholic who must have first lost their Faith before they could have started another religion. Thus their religion is based on the sin of disbelief. Thus, Protestants give up yer aoul sins, and come back to the truth.

Ming the Merciless

-- Ming the Merciless (dot4@hotmail.co.uk), February 22, 2005.

1: WHAT IS AOUL?

2: The History of the reformaiton reveals that they did NOT lose their faith, but rather thogyht of the Catholic Chruhc as corrupt, and thus sought ot reform it, hence the name "Reform" and "reformation." It was an attmept at reformin the Churc ofrm past corruption that got out of hand and lead o the ormaiton of a seperate Branch of Christendom.

3: Not all of us are Protestant ot begin with...

4: Not all Protestant ancestors are Catholic. take for instance a chisnese Pentacostal convert, his ancestors where likely Taoists or Buddhists. Shoidl he covery to those fiaths because htye whre of his ancestors?

5: Protestantism is not a "New rleigion", but an extneison fo the sme religion fo Cahtolics, that of Cristianity.

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), February 22, 2005.

Protestantism is not a religion, rather, it is a movement. A protest against the false teachings of Rome.

I read somewhere, Zarove, where you claimed that the Church of Christ was not protestant--however--in your (your religions') attempt to leave denominationalism behind and begin again--you still left Catholicism in your wake. You do protest what Catholicism teaches-- just as the earlier reformed churches--and that makes you just as much a protestant as any other church that rejects Catholicism's false teachings.

-- (faith01@myway.com), February 22, 2005.

Aoul is old said with an accent, no matter.. 2. Certainly there is and was much corruption in the Chruch and many orders,eg. Franciscans, wished to make improvments within it. Because the Church is Christs Body and the Pope inherits the authority given to St.Peter by Christ, those who sought to improve these situations firstly wished to preserve the unity of the church and secondly felt they hadn't the authority to dismantle it. A house divided against itself cannot stand. 3.Yes I know.. I have read through some threads 4.The origins of Protestantism is Catholicism, they should convert to Catholicism if they believe their protest got out of hand, if that was your meaning. 5.I agree it is'nt a New Religion but it can't be the same one either they are very definite about that themselves.

-- Ming the Merciless (dot4@hotmail.co.uk), February 22, 2005.

FAITH-the spacific term "Priotestant" refers to churhces who owe their existance to protestign Rome. The Churhc of christ did not origionate based on protestgn anyhting, and is part of the "Restration movement", not the "Pritestant mvoement."

Though yo did accuraltey identify that Protestantism is a mvoment and nto a rligion per sey.

But then, so is restorationism.

The Hcurhc of chrst is, therefore, nto aprt of the Protestant mvoment ad it is beter to not mislable it, lest we misidentify it.

As to Ming, I am not sure what you want, exactly, form us here.

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), February 22, 2005.

Never heard of restorationism..,

The Church of Christ sprang-up out of the same peoples who first protested Rome. There are many branches and many attempts to restore even the earliers protestant movements....Calvin thought he was an improvement on Luther--for example.

The ideal thing is to bring ourselves back to the original teachings of jesus and the apostles themselves--and that is what we are all attempting to do, after the fiasco that Catholicism caused.

Like it or not--you protest as much.

-- (faith01@myway.com), February 22, 2005.

The definition of "Protestantism" as found in four different dictionaries (hyperlinked at dictionary.net).

Protestant \Prot"es*tant\, n. [F. protestant, fr. L. protestans, - antis, p. pr. of protestare. See Protest, v.]

One who protests; -- originally applied to those who adhered to Luther, and protested against, or made a solemn declaration of dissent from, a decree of the Emperor Charles V. and the Diet of Spires, in 1529, against the Reformers, and appealed to a general council; -- now used in a popular sense to designate any Christian who does not belong to the Roman Catholic or the Greek Church. [1913 Webster]

Source: The Collaborative International Dictionary of English v.0.44 Protestant \Prot"es*tant\, a. [Cf. F. protestant.]

1. Making a protest; protesting. [1913 Webster]

2. Of or pertaining to the faith and practice of those Christians who reject the authority of the Roman Catholic Church; as, Protestant writers. [1913 Webster]

Source: The Collaborative International Dictionary of English v.0.44 Protestant \Prot"es*tant\, a. [Cf. F. protestant.]

1. Making a protest; protesting.

2. Of or pertaining to the faith and practice of those Christians who reject the authority of the Roman Catholic Church; as, Protestant writers.

Source: Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary (1913)

Protestant \Prot"es*tant\, n. [F. protestant, fr. L. protestans, - antis, p. pr. of protestare. See Protest, v.]

One who protests; -- originally applied to those who adhered to Luther, and protested against, or made a solemn declaration of dissent from, a decree of the Emperor Charles V. and the Diet of Spires, in 1529, against the Reformers, and appealed to a general council; -- now used in a popular sense to designate any Christian who does not belong to the Roman Catholic or the Greek Church.

Source: Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary (1913)

************

Zarove, if you have a dictionary that gives an exclusion to the CoC, please provide it. Otherwise, we really have to stick to some authority when it comes to "defining" words because if we just pour into a word whatever we want, we really cannot even properly communicate. The CoC most definitely does object to the teachings and authority of the Catholic Church, and hence are technically "Protestants."

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), February 22, 2005.

Gail and faith, one of the biggest reaossn not to call Chruhc of Chruts members Protestants is that they themselves fidn it offensive.

:ikeise, the movement is smaller than Protestantism and many arent cognizent of it. However, nto all Non-Catholics are automatcllay Protestant.

The term "Restorationist" is used in my theolgy classes, and I think tis fair to ask peopel to use it instead.

After all, the chruhc of Chirst dosnt relaly affiliate with Protestant Chruches, at all.

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), February 22, 2005.

Well then Zarove--I don't feel like being refered to as a protestant either--so call me a *restorationist*--since that is what protestants are too-- or call me a Baptist. Thanks in advance : )

-- (faith01@myway.com), February 22, 2005.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Restorationism

http://www.mun.ca/rels/restmov/

This will ehlp learn of them.

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), February 22, 2005.

Faith, the Bapotsts are part of the Protestant mvoement and clealry obey reform theology, form a theolgical standpoint, you belong to the "Faith alone" camp, and this is clealry and most deifnitley Protestant.

Again, we are discussing movements, to be a restorationist you woidl NOT be a Baptost since that is identifying a Denominaiton, which restorationists wish to dissolve, you acknowledge origional sin, restoratiosist dont, you do not beleive baptosm is nessisary, the restprationist does.

Your entre theological outlook is Protrstant, sicne it follows standard Pritestant liens of reasoning, and does not fit withhte restorationist mvoements theology.

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), February 22, 2005.

Sorry Zarove--but the intentions of the protestant movement was to restore the church back to what Jesus and the apostles originally intended., same as your church claims to want to do.

You really can't personal the word restore so that it belongs only to your religion.

Protestantism is not a religion or a set of theological beliefs....it is a movement to protest Rome. Many churches and theology developed through that movement and not all are the same. I wouldn't accept Calvinism anymore that I accept Catholicim. Both are false in my opinion.

-- (faith01@myway.com), February 22, 2005.

I speak of the heological distinction. rmemenber, the chruces of chirst are not the oly Rstoraiton cruhces in existance.

However, the restoration mvoement is sepwrate fom the Protestant mvoement, and is larlgey seperae dbyt he rejection of Protestant beleifs and practices.

You cannot be a restorationist, faith, as you reject what Restorationism dos. You accept protestant ideas.

The terms "Protestant" and "restorationist" exist to clarify the theological midnset of the individual. One cannto smpely dlecare the churhc fo Chirst protestant, as that asusmes tha they follow he same midnset yo do, and you knwo from your debates with Kevin that this si not true.

Likewise, Protestants cannot be called restorationists, as the temr currntly emans those in the pracitces and beleifs fo the estoraiton mvoement.

The terms miust be kept in solidarity and divided agaisnt eahc other, so that eoel can frely associate in their midns what eahc word means, and thus know what pepela re speakign of when the terms ar used.

The restoraiton movement is seperate foem the Protestant mvoement, and doesnt een rmeotely thik like you do, by your own admission in other threads.

it is irrelevant if the Protestant churhces where attmeptign to reconstct Fist-Ceury christanity or not, the fact remaisn tat the massive ovewhelming majority of Protestants agre wih you on key doctorinal issues that no restorationist woudl elnd assent to.

This is why the terms are seperate.

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), February 22, 2005.

So is this *Church of Christ* then?

Restoration

-- (faith01@myway.com), February 22, 2005.

Oops., I think someone forgot to tell these Mormons that the word restoration belongs only to you:

restoration

-- (faith01@myway.com), February 22, 2005.

Would you look at this... The Catholic Church thinks they can use the word too!!

Restoration

-- (faith01@myway.com), February 22, 2005.

Oops.., maybe that one's not Catholic! Who can tell...

-- (faith01@myway.com), February 22, 2005.

Yep! Catholic!!

The point being Zarove--that the original intent of the protestant movement was *restoration* whether you agree that I may use that word- -or not.

-- (faith01@myway.com), February 22, 2005.

False teachings Faith?...really?

A short summary.. God made Himself a man, said He had a mission. Which was to make a new contract signed in His own blood. The people who accepted this contract were to form an organisation, a single one, You are Peter and upon this rock I will found My Church. With authority given to the head of this Church, St.Peter, I give you the Keys to the Kingdom of Heaven..And the Gates of Hell shall not prevail against you. The authors of the N.T. state that the N.T. contains only a small fraction of what Christ taught and did, and that the author simply could'nt write everything down in book form. That the N.T. was written as an aid to those who wished to learn more, not everything. That the N.T. is not like a constitution which strives to answer every question and is the sum total of the known law, the N.T. , that which was written as an aid plus that which passed on as oral traditions by the same authors comprises in truth the major part of what is known of Christ and His teachings. That the oral traditions passed on by the same authors in their own words was much greater in volume than that which they had written. It is unthinkable that the Apostles took a vow of silence when they laid down thier pens. That the authors of the N.T. are the originators of the same oral traditions. That the purpose of a single united church was the goal of Christianity. That as God lived in Christ and Christ in God, the Church united as one body lives in Christ and Christ lives in them, and Christ in God so that all become one in the Father. This unity is not possible in disunity. The Protestant notion that all will be somehow or other be united in Faith or belief when they get to Heaven cannot be trusted, if on Earth they carry their discord to the grave. Am I to expect some sort of partition in Heaven, does this comply with the statement -so that all will become one in the Father.

Since the Church is Christs LIVING Body, it has lived and grown for 2000 years it can't grow backwards or go backwards in time and grow again.

-- Ming the Merciless (dot4@hotmail.co.uk), February 23, 2005.

Saying someone forgot to tell the Mormons that the term Restorationist belongs only to the churhc of chirst proves only that you arnet listening.

I said "The Church of Christ is not the only Restoration Church".

Mormosn are an offshoot of the restoration movement.

Similarly tot he Jehova's Witnesses being an offshoot of Milliritism.

Thus they, too, are restoration movement.

Indeed, Joseph smith was inpsired by a Stone-Cambel revival, this was his inpsiration for his claims for the need to restore the CHruch.

Not that his theology is in line withte Stone-Cambell movement, hwoever, the general idea is the same.

Again, faith, and listen carefully, their are other restoration chruches besides the Church of Christ.

Again, I never said the Chruch of christ is th eonly restoration Chruch.

Why is it so important toy ou to jkeep the simpel three? either orthodox, Cahtolic, or Protestant? why do you think its eithe rone of thisor nothgin at all?

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), February 23, 2005.

When Protesntats sue the term "restration" they still follow Proitestant theology.

when Cahtolics use itthey mean simpely returgi to the Cahtolic faith.

When theolofians use the term, they refer to a spacific set of theological origins to a mvoement, that is not Protestant in nature since it rejects Protestant thdeology.

Again, Cahtolcis do not call themselves "Restorationosts", and neitehr do Protestants. Protestants call themselves Protestants,a nd to avid the condfusion it is best to lable each movement seperatley.

for instance, many Cahtolcis beleive I am Protestnat as these ar eht eonly divisions, but as they think all Protestants are baslclay the same in genral outlook, I am stuck with queatsins like " How can to beleive in Faith alone for salvation?"

Chruch of Christ doesnt beleive in Faith alone for salvaiton, btu ebcause Im protestant I must sinece this is what Protestants beleive...

Beside that, as stated, its seen as offensive.

Members of the churhc fo Christ do not wish to be called protestant and have removed themselves form the Protestant mvoement, so it is best to honour their wishes and not clal them this.

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNOO.COM), February 23, 2005.

Oh Ming the Merciless--where to begin??

You say:

A short summary.. God made Himself a man, said He had a mission. Which was to make a new contract signed in His own blood. The people who accepted this contract were to form an organisation, a single one, You are Peter and upon this rock I will found My Church. With authority given to the head of this Church, St.Peter, I give you the Keys to the Kingdom of Heaven..And the Gates of Hell shall not prevail against you. The authors of the N.T. state that the N.T. contains only a small fraction of what Christ taught and did, and that the author simply could'nt write everything down in book form.

I agree that Christ began a New Covenant in His blood. But this has nothing to do with the Roman Catholic Church. Your first false teaching is that of the papacy. Christ never said that Peter was the Rock. Scripture always refers to God/Jesus as being the Rock. Sorry. And when Jesus gave Peter the keys--he also gave the same power to all his disciples--the power to bind and loose. The disciples did just that in the Scriptures and the books are complete. The Scriptures may very well say that if they were to record every single thing that Jesus spoke--the books would be endless, however--the point was that anything necessary was indeed recorded and that the Scriptures were fully authoritive and able to lead us to salvation. Those words certainly didn't mean that we were to follow any tradition invented in the generations to come!

It is unthinkable that the Apostles took a vow of silence when they laid down thier pens.

Simply illogical and part of the reason your religion is gone astray. Jesus always instructed us to know the Scriptures and not to turn from His teachings in favor of tradition. This is exactly what the Jews did in that day--and what the Catholic religion does today. Even Peter commended the Bereans who were of more noble character--who searched the Scriptures (their measuring rod) against every teaching they heard from anyone-including Paul--to make sure it was true. So they used the Scriptures to determine truth because they understood that anything taught must be in line with what God revealed in His Word.

Paul tells us in 2 Timothy that the Scriptures are able to lead us to all important knowledge in regards to the things us God--able to *fully* equip us.

Certainly we cannot find such false teachings as the Assumption of Mary--the Immaculate Conception and Purgatory in God's revelation to us. Look at what heresy the doctrine of Purgatory alone caused back in the Middle ages. Consider the murderous history behind the papal throne. Those things are not of God........

-- (faith01@myway.com), February 23, 2005.

Zarove--my point is that the Protestant Reformation was an attempt to *restore* Jesus' church back to what it was in those early days. Same as you claim is the intent of CoC. I can't help but point out that the Mormons and the Jehovah Witnesses are false cults. They aren't Christian--as they reject Christ as Divine. I am so sorry if CoC feels insulted to be considered protestant. But that is what they are. They, like us, reject Rome and all the false teachings that developed over the centuries. They do protest Rome.

-- (faith01@myway.com), February 23, 2005.

As for purgatory its said a person will not be released until he has paid the last penny. As for the murderous history behind the Papal Throne, there is a another murderous legacy not far from me, a Protestant house with a message painted on its wall in 6 foot letters .." We'll kill them all and let God sort them out."

-- Ming the Merciless (dot4@hotmail.co.uk), February 23, 2005.

Zarove--my point is that the Protestant Reformation was an attempt to *restore* Jesus' church back to what it was in those early days.

Again, this is not relevant to the poitn at hand. The term "Protestant" comes loaded with thelogical baggage that Restoration churhces do not use.

Please ty to undersand the lable exists to distingush te two movements, not to claim one did not rlely ty to restore the church. However, the reformation atmeoed to reform the Catholic church, and nded up eperating.

Restoration chruches attmet to rebuild it, nto reform it.

Likeise, the theological baggage, as noted, such as the "Five Sola's', are abcent in restoration teachings.

These are lables to identify two seperate mvoements, not to determien what the intentiosn where.

Indeed, you do not think the "Catholic" CHurhc is Gods true CHurhc, yet still call it Catholic, whihc means Universal.

So regardless of rater tou agre or not you use the lable for ocnveneince, and all i ask here is the same corutesey.

Same as you claim is the intent of CoC.

Bu tthe Chruhc fo Chrst, and other restoration chruches, do not follow the reformatiosn teological ideas, thi is why they ar a seeprate mvoement and require a seperate lable.

I can't help but point out that the Mormons and the Jehovah Witnesses are false cults.

True or false we leave for naother day, but cults? Mormosn arnt relaly cultic. The Morni Churhc dosnt operat elike a cult either.

Yu may want to go throguh a litanh of their Doctorinal and theolgical teahcigns ha you disagree with, hwoever, the term "Cult" has come to mean a gorup that used Mind Controle and centrlaises authroity to controel every aspect of peoelsl lives, and i genrally unhealthy.

Many Psyclogiclaly fit Mormns exist , and noen are direclty controled by the Chruch in their hebaviours.

Mormons, rather you agree with their thology or not, are not a Cult.

Jehova's witnesses are, and are labled as such.

But not Mormns.

Unelss you want ot prove ow they ar a cult ( with soemthign othe than claism aaisn hteir thelogy, whic onlyprves you beleive their teahigns are flase, nto that they ae a cult) then do so, or else please rerain frm such.

They aren't Christian--

Why arent Mormons chrisain? Because you do liek their particular interpretation? Again, this is not goign to do...

as they reject Christ as Divine.

No, they do not.

Their are two brnaches, RLDS and LDS.

1: RLDS recgnises Jesus as God Incarnate. As I have psoted numerous times.

2: LDS recognsies him as a god, just not the same as Heaenly Fathr. thus he is stil Divine.

Likewise, the aove claim abouhhe LDS desnt make i a cult, nor non-Christain, any more than the Aryans where Non-Christain, it merley makes them Hertical to orthodox beleifs.

I am so sorry if CoC feels insulted to be considered protestant. But that is what they are.

Again Faith, the term Protestant coems form a mvoement that the Cruch of Chrust is ot rlaly aprt of, and Protestant theology as it is undertsood it forgi to restoraiton theology.

And again, beign simpley midned abot it and wantign to keep the "Either Catolic or Protestant" midnset is not gign to work.

Protrstant theology is what identifies the protetant mvoement.

It is unwise to lable everytign Protestant, even if it is a seprrate mvoement, as it only leads to confusion. It also adds weight tothe Cahtolci claim agsint protestantism. That it lead to doctorinal Chaos.

It is or than just insult Faith, tis not true to call them Protestant, as they do not een rely on Prorstant theology.

Please don argue over this and or once listen and rspect the definitiosn others palce, sicne it doesnt even affect what you beleive.

They, like us, reject Rome and all the false teachings that developed over the centuries. They do protest Rome.

1: Not rellay, the object was soley to restore the Churhc, no to protest anyone.

2: This said, Protestant theology as it is undersood even by Protrstants is pretty clealry defined, and unliej the Cahtolci claim, thir is broad concensus among Protestants aboththe core issues, such as Salvation by Faith alone, or Grace alone.

Restoratinisst do not adhere to the core Protrstant theologies, and are removed frm the protestant lable to make study easier since htey are NOT a apet fo th same mvoement.

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), February 23, 2005.

Gee Ming--you are such a good representation of Christ! lol!!

You go ahead and try to pay off your debt to God for your sin. Go suffer in some false place called Purgatory if you want to. Maybe if you buy enough Mass cards you can get some time off for that?

Me? I'll believe what God says about my ability to ever work off my sin. He says my works are as filthy rags. He says that Christ therefore did the work for me in my place as a gift. My God says that Jesus suffered Once for all., and that we go to heaven based on His work at the cross. He says that when we receive this gift of salvation in Christ--our debt is forgiven. Forgiven means wiped clean- -paid off. Therefore--there is no need for you to pay anything.

It's a faith thing Ming.

Hebrews 9:24-28

For Christ did not enter a manmade sanctuary that was only a copy of the true one; he entered heaven itself, now to appear for us in God's presence. Nor did he enter heaven to offer himself again and again, the way the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood that is not his own. Then Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But now he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself. Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment, so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.

-- (faith01@myway.com), February 23, 2005.

Zarove--maybe the Catholic reformation tried to reform the Catholic church--but the protestant reformation separated from the Catholic church.

-- (faith01@myway.com), February 23, 2005.

hmm...so you're saying that you, Faith, cannot sin.

-- Ming the Merciless (dot4@hotmail.co.uk), February 23, 2005.

I never said that. I am a *forgiven* sinner....

-- (faith01@myway.com), February 23, 2005.

The Prtorstant reformation origionated int he work of men whoc alled themselves "Reformers" not "Weperatists". Martian Luther hismefl wante the Cathlic chruc to ollow suit. It as nto abotu seperation, seperation only occured after the reformaiton was nto well recieved by Rome, after a few years...

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), February 23, 2005.

So when you, inevitably, fall back into sin what do you do?.

-- Ming the Merciless (dot4@hotmail.co.uk), February 23, 2005.

But Zarove--Luther was forced out of the Catholic Church--and the Protestant Reformation which was to follow--was about restoring Jesus' church back to those early days--not to restore it to Catholicim.

The Catholic church had it's own reformation to do that.

-- (faith01@myway.com), February 23, 2005.

The point you sem to miss is this faith.

Its not about intentions of the foudners of variosu movements but theologies.

Restorationist theology differs frm Prtoestanttheology, and the mvoements are seperated by this, and other factors.

The lable tis used to distinguich betwen them forthis reason.

Restoratioist arent protestant because of the theological basis of the beelifs they use.

The mvoements want ot be seen as seperate and do nto emplyy reformation thought, this is why its different.

So it doesnt matter WHAT Luthers inention whee.

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), February 23, 2005.

Ming--

The Bible tells us that we are accepted by God because of the perfection of Christ Himself.

The centrality of human works in Rome's view is clearly seen when we contrast it with the Savior-centered work presented by the Reformers-- which is based firmly upon the Scriptures.

What do I do? When I sin? I confess it and continue to follow Christ...

It is difficult for a Catholic to understand the fact that we cling to the righteousness of another and believe that Christ--as our perfect Substitute--has provided complete forgiveness of sin and has made it possible that His perfect righteousness--His sinless life-- has been imputed on us as our present and precious possession unto salvation.

Peace with God is the present possession of the justified believer. This peace is not transient and it is not a mere truce in war that may erupt at any time.

This is a lasting peace made by God. Each person who has faith in Jesus Christ and is declared *just* on that basis alone-- enjoys peace with his Maker. What a tremendous blessing!! There is no wondering about our eternal inheritence. There is no question. Christ paid for our sin--past, present and future.

-- (faith01@myway.com), February 23, 2005.

In the words of a wise man -time will tell. We would rather stick to the actual words and spirit of scripture plus the benefits of oral traditions plus inspired writings guided by the Holy Spirit Whom Christ placed in his church for that reason, than face the risk and uncertainty of attempting to begin again and reproduce another Body of Christ. It would be foolhardy indeed to take such a risk with ones soul. As an ancient Jewish leader said- if it is of God it cannot be stopped, if it is not of God it cannot last. This in some measure explains the 500+ protestant churches/movements formed from dissagreements within themselves and originating from their disagreement with Rome.

-- Ming the Merciless (dot4@hotmail.co.uk), February 23, 2005.

That's your choice Ming..follow the whim of man all you want. I'll stick with God's truth and grace.

The Gospel of Jesus Christ presents a Perfect, All-Sufficient Savior who endured the wrath of God in the place of His people. To Him is due all the glory, honor and praise--alone--for He alone is Savior.

The doctrine of Purgatory detracts from the honor and glory of Christ- -giving at least some credit to the suffering sinner--for that fact that he becomes justified, for he is purified in part by his own suffering in the fire.

I give all the credit and glory to Jesus Christ--taking no credit myself.

-- (faith01@myway.com), February 23, 2005.

Good works are a consequence of a living faith, an unavoidable side- effect of loving God, if you like. If you love a person you naturally go out of your way to do some good for them. To attempt otherwise is to act against human nature. Christ said many things, many I'm sure are unrecorded, one such is, believe in Me, but also pick up your cross and follow Me. As well as an attractive call to suffer He also gave a mental and spiritual challenge to believe in reality that unless you eat My Flesh and drink My Blood you will not have Life in you.

Christianity is and always will be a great physical, mental and spiritual challenge which can be won or lost at any moment. It is always vital, alive and attractive to the human heart, but without the struggle, suffering and challenges it loses its vitality and breeds indifference. Pick up your cross and follow Me,- The road to Hell is broad and easy and many perish thereon,- the path to Heaven is narrow...Fight your way in through the narrow door..etc.

-- Ming the Merciless (dot4@hotmail.co.uk), February 23, 2005.

We respond to our salvation--which is deliverance from the power of sin and its penalty--by doing good works--NOT TO GET SAVED--but because we are saved.

This, by-the-way, has nothing to do with the false doctrine of Purgatory.

-- (faith01@myway.com), February 23, 2005.

So you have sinned Faith, but wait!, before you have a chance to confess and begin again, you die. At that moment of your death you lose the benefit of free will, you're soul is fixed in that sinfull state, no longer can you use your will to move yourself to confess. What can you do? Can God allow a sinfull person enter Heaven? Obviously not. As there are many degrees of sin it would be impossible to go to hell for a small matter, which is all I'm sure you would be guilty of. A Perfectly Just and Perfectly Mercy full God must both demand justice and show mercy. Thus your guilt must be removed before you could enter Heaven and punishment due to sin be balanced by mercy according to its degree.

-- Ming the Merciless (dot4@hotmail.co.uk), February 23, 2005.

Your problem Ming--is that you misunderstand the difference between the *sin* that Christ paid for--to which we owed a great debt/penalty- death. That *sin* is the original sin committed by Adam and Eve and passed on to us--exampled by our disobedience and rejection of God...

....And ordinary *sins* that we commit in this sinful state/nature that we inherited from Adam and Eve.

We need forgiveness of the first..., in order to live. Once we are forgiven that debt--the curse of death--we are saved...and can then possibly obey Christ, overcoming our sinful nature more and more every day as we walk in Him.

Of course we will still mess up--but those are not the sins we needed to be forgiven of unto life. As a forgiven sinner--we remain saved. We need to work out that salvation by obeying Christ and following Him the best way we know how. But the peace of God is the confidence we have in Him. The Catholic cannot experience this peace if he believes that he can screw up at the last hour and be forever lost. Sheesh! Where's the good news in that teaching?

-- (faith01@myway.com), February 23, 2005.

Oh and yes--Ming.,

We are made perfect *in* Christ. It is His perfection and His righteousness that God sees when we stand before Him. If we have placed our faith in His Son to save us--then we are purified by His Blood., and are no longer condemned. We are made righteous only because of our faith in Him who is the perfect Lamb of God. No one else is perfect, nor can they ever be on their own merit.

Jesus' sacrifice we perfect and fully sufficient--able to save everyone who receives Him. The doctrine of Purgatory denies the sufficiency of His work. It says that Jesus didn't quite suffer enough and that somehow--we need to add to His work. Ridiculous and completely unbiblical. Eternal life is a gift to those who believe. It cannot be earned.

-- (faith01@myway.com), February 23, 2005.

Faith, when you go to heaven, will you still be able to sin?

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), February 23, 2005.

The doctrine of Purgatory affirms the reality of sin, the frailty of human nature, the necessity of satisfying the Perfect Justice of a Perfect God in the matter offences unconfessed or inadequately repented.

-- Ming the Merciless (dot4@hotmail.co.uk), February 23, 2005.

Jesus' sacrifice we perfect and fully sufficient--able to save everyone who receives Him. The doctrine of Purgatory denies the sufficiency of His work. It says that Jesus didn't quite suffer enough and that somehow--we need to add to His work. Ridiculous and completely unbiblical. Eternal life is a gift to those who believe. It cannot be earned. - Faith

Hebrews 9 shows that salvation isn't determined until the return of the Lord. Remember the passages concerning the refining fire of the Lord? When Jesus comes the second time, it is in a blaze of fire, not exactly in destruction, but in purification. This fire "destroys" the current heaven and earth and creates a new one.

Believers some how pass through this fire. I don't believe they avoid it, but through it they are changed from perishable in immortal. It is a refining fire.

Remember how Paul said our works would be tested by fire and rewards given thereof? When did Paul (and Jesus) say we will be rewarded? At his second coming.

This is my "purgatory." It has similarities to the Catholic teaching, but is not uniform. I don't believe a person enters into this process upon death, but upon the return of Jesus. I believe only believers shall enter.

-- Luke Juarez (hubertdorm@yahoo.com), February 23, 2005.

The Final Purification, or Purgatory.

All who die in Gods grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.

The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned. The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire: I Cor 3:15; I Pt 1:7

“As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgement, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offences can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come.”St.Gregory the Great

This teaching is also based on the practice of prayer for the dead, already mentioned in Sacred Scripture: ‘Therefore [Judas Maccabeus] made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin.’2 Macc 12:46 From the beginning the Church has honored the memory of the dead and offered prayers in suffrage for them, above all the Eucharist sacrifice, so that , thus purified, they may attain the beatific vision of God. Council of Lyons II (1274) The Church also commends almsgiving, indulgences and works of penance undertaken on behalf of the dead:

“ Let us help and commemorate them. If Job’s sons were purified by their father’s, sacrifice, why would we doubt that our offerings for the dead bring them some consolation? Let us not hesitate to help those who have died and to offer our prayers for them.”St.John Chrysostom

-- Ming the Merciless (dot4@hotmail.co.uk), February 24, 2005.

Like I said, the Catholics have it wrong, IMO. The cleansing fire does not occur until the second coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. Those who die do not experience such immediately.

Also, the text of 2 Maccabees is flawed. The writer makes a theological mistake which contradicts other teachings, even Catholic. Plus, such practices occured before the New Covenant of Jesus and is not part of the instructions from the Apostles.

-- Luke Juarez (hubertdorm@yahoo.com), February 24, 2005.

If this is open to interpretation, the more logical place in time for purgatory would be after death and before entry into heaven.

If you are dead now and if you can only enter heaven after the second coming, then your death would signal the begining of purgatory, the second coming being the end of purgatory since you could not enter heaven with the least of sins.

This notion would violate the Perfect Justice of God, keeping all out of heaven for the same period of time regardless of the degree of seriousness of their offences.

The notion that a person must wait until after the second coming before entering heaven is contradicted by Christs promise to the good thief that '..this day you will be with Me in paradise'.

That a person could enter heaven with sin is impossible.

The intermediary phase between your moment of death and your fitness to enter heaven is called Purgatory.

-- Ming the Merciless (dot4@hotmail.co.uk), February 24, 2005.

Luke, if I'm following you correctly, then the soul would have to be in a state of "slumber" until judgment . . . ? Something like soul sleep.

The parable of Lazarus shows that Lazurus is receiving his reward immediately. Also the book of Hebrews states that we are "encumbered" by a great cloud of witnesses; active witnesses. St. Paul says we will rule and reign with the angels, which is happening now. St. Paul, St. Peter, St. Luke -- all of them -- are with Christ NOW, laboring with Him as he builds His church.

I am not aware of any scriptural support for your position. Maybe you offered some earlier and I missed it. The cleansing must happen immediately upon our deaths, otherwise the soul is either asleep, or the soul is able to sin. Neither of these scenarios are possible.

Purgatory is simply the final "dying to self" that absolutely must occur according to Christ. The process actually begins in this life, and is simply carried out on the other side. The length of time this takes is according to how much "flesh" has got to go. Some of us have a LOT!

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), February 24, 2005.

Purgatory is a man-made doctrine based simply in our own imaginings and misunderstandings.

According to Scripture--we are cleansed and purified the moment we receive Christ as our Savior. The moment we are born-again, renewed-- we are made righteous in Him.

Scripture tells us that we go directly to Christ the very moment we die. We are in Christ at the moment that our soul leaves our body. There, we stay, until the second coming when we will be reunited with our bodies--perfect, immortal and imperishable bodies.

We are the Bride of Christ--heaven ready...

The purification in 1 Corinthians 3:11-15 has to do with our works-- our works are tested and purified, not our flesh....

For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's work. If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, [but only as one escaping through the flames]...{serves as an analogy}.

-- (faith01@myway.com), February 24, 2005.

"The parable of Lazarus shows that Lazurus is receiving his reward immediately."

He was in Abraham's bosom - which is in paradise... It is interesting to note that he didn't have to pass through some mythical place called "purgatory"...

"Also the book of Hebrews states that we are "encumbered" by a great cloud of witnesses; active witnesses. St. Paul says we will rule and reign with the angels, which is happening now. St. Paul, St. Peter, St. Luke -- all of them -- are with Christ NOW, laboring with Him as he builds His church."

Those who are dead know nothing of what is happening here on this earth... Where is your proof that Paul, Peter and Luke are "laboring with Him as he builds His church"??? "The cleansing must happen immediately upon our deaths, otherwise the soul is either asleep, or the soul is able to sin. Neither of these scenarios are possible."

There is no "cleansing" after one dies... We will be judged by our works here on this earth and either receive a reward or lose our reward for the deeds done in the body... There is no mention of "purgatory" in the New Testament nor is there mention of this place in the Old Testament... This place (purgatory) is nothing but an invention of the Catholic Church back in the early days to extract more money via indulgences from their laity...

"Purgatory is simply the final "dying to self" that absolutely must occur according to Christ. The process actually begins in this life, and is simply carried out on the other side."

This is a fine assertion of the Catholic Church however, it has no basis in the truth of God's word...

"The length of time this takes is according to how much "flesh" has got to go. Some of us have a LOT!"

Ha!!! Another assertion that cannot be proven through the word of God...

-- Kevin Walker ("navyscporetired@comcast.net"), February 24, 2005.

Faith and Kevin, will we be able to sin in heaven? If not, why not?

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), February 24, 2005.

Keven, Faith, etc.

""interesting to note that he didn't have to pass through some mythical place called "purgatory"... ""

Before Christs death there was no heaven/paradise. The ancient Jews who died went to limbo, all of them. Abrahams bosom, or Abrahams comfort, was the separation in limbo of those who were with Abraham from those against Abraham by a chasm or gulf which could not be crossed in either direction.

Christ first had to die on the cross, rise from the dead and then ascend in order to prepare a place for us.

Your Protestant innovations with the truth are the source of your confusion.

Purgatory, as a fact of life, is true today as it was in the days of the ancient Jews in the same way that God is true yesterday as well as today.

""We will be judged by our works here on this earth and either receive a reward or lose our reward for the deeds done in the body... ""

Since some protestants say they can never be perfect, so they must always have sin on their souls. To be judged in that state and recieve your just reward according to your own standards, then you must go to Hell, since it is impossible for sin to be in heaven.

Some other Protestants claim that after baptism they can in effect never sin again to such an extent that it would exclude them from heaven. A claim based on the presunption that sin is possible in heaven.

The catholic position, i.e. the truth guided by the Holy Spirit, tells us that we are saved by being baptised into Christs body, that we remain in his body, unless we lose His friendship by falling into mortal sin, e.g. by murdering someone, but that we can regain His friendship because He is a Perfectly Mercifull God whose purpose in the world is to save sinners.

Because simply by using logic alone we know it is almost impossible for human nature to be perfect we can say that it is extremely difficult for that murderer to be perfectly sorry for his offence, and since God IS Perfect and we propose to live in Him, we must be made perfect also- You must be Holy because I am Holy-. This 'making perfect' of the human soul to conform to Gods perfection is known as Purgatory.

Faith and Kevin, will we be able to sin in heaven? If not, why not?

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), February 24, 2005.

-- Ming the Merciless (dot4@hotmail.co.uk), February 25, 2005.

"If this is open to interpretation, the more logical place in time for purgatory would be after death and before entry into heaven." - Ming

Why must death proceed heaven? Or, when Christ returns, where do the living go? To the same place as those who died?

If you are dead now and if you can only enter heaven after the second coming, then your death would signal the begining of purgatory, the second coming being the end of purgatory since you could not enter heaven with the least of sins.

Incorrect. The second coming of Christ does not usher in the beginning of heaven. A new heaven and a new earth is created (the present destroyed by fire), but this isn't "heaven." The city of God decends FROM the heavens unto the new earth. By this time, the wicked upon the earth have received judgment and are cast into the lake of fire.

"This notion would violate the Perfect Justice of God, keeping all out of heaven for the same period of time regardless of the degree of seriousness of their offences." - Ming

The Word of God has no such notion that some get into heaven faster than others.

"The notion that a person must wait until after the second coming before entering heaven is contradicted by Christs promise to the good thief that '..this day you will be with Me in paradise'." - Ming

Jesus didn't ascend to the Father until after his resurrection.

1 Peter 3:18

For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit,

v.19

by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison,

v.20

who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah...

Revelation 1:18 also reads of Jesus holding the keys to death and Hades. Jesus had to triumph over death.

So, when Jesus said "today you shall be with me in paradise," he wasn't really saying that day nor with himself, since he himself did not ascend to the Father until after the resurrection.

"That a person could enter heaven with sin is impossible." - Ming

You're missing scripture. 1 Corinthians 15 Paul writes about our physical forms. At the last trumpet (the return of Christ), our weak, corrupted, sinful bodies are no more, and we are changed to eternal bodies.

-- Luke Juarez (hubertdorm@yahoo.com), February 25, 2005.

“Luke, if I'm following you correctly, then the soul would have to be in a state of ‘slumber’ until judgment . . . ? Something like soul sleep.” – Gail

“Before Christs death there was no heaven/paradise. The ancient Jews who died went to limbo, all of them.” - Ming

“The parable of Lazarus shows that Lazurus is receiving his reward immediately.” – Gail

According to your purgatory buddy, Lazarus should have been in limbo or “soul sleep.”

Again the enormity of what is being said here is not stated. 2 Maccabees is a traitor book. First, because the men who perished during the battle did so because of idolatry, a mortal sin in the Catholic Church. They had no hope of heaven, so Judas was foolish to have considered their resurrection (even though the writer paints him as noble.) Second, as Ming claims, they would have been in limbo anyway, not in purgatory to enter into heaven. This is a trash book and should be rejected as inspired.

“Purgatory, as a fact of life, is true today as it was in the days of the ancient Jews in the same way that God is true yesterday as well as today.” – Ming

First you said all Jews were in limbo, but now you say they were in purgatory?

Consider this, were sins remissed in purgatory prior to Jesus? If so, then we wouldn't need the sacrifice of Jesus for forgiveness. However, if no sins were remissed in purgatory prior to Jesus, then we need the Calvary gospel.

-- Luke Juarez (hubertdorm@yahoo.com), February 25, 2005.

I'm sorry, Luke, I am just not following you at all.

You didn't answer my question about what happens to the soul, in your view, between the time it leaves the body, and the 2nd coming of Christ? Are you talking about soul-sleep?

Also, I'll ask you the same question I asked Faith and Kevin: Will we be "able" to sin in heaven? (If you touched on that I apologize that I missed it)

Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), February 25, 2005.

Of course there will be no sin in heaven, Gail.

We are new creatures in Christ., and like Him--we are now made perfect by His blood.

Of course we could sin, (so could Jesus--it's that free-will thing again), but we won't because evil has been conquered, and Satan has been sent to the eternal flames of hell along with all his minions.

Only those who have been clothed in the righteousness of Christ will enter heaven...

Romans 1:16-17

I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. For in the gospel a righteousness from God is revealed, a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: “The righteous will live by faith.”

Romans 3:22-25..

This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.

2Cor 5:21...

God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

Galatians 2:21..

I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!

Galatians 3:6

Consider Abraham: “He believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.” Understand, then, that those who believe are children of Abraham. The Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: “All nations will be blessed through you.” So those who have faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.

Phil 3:9...

...and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ–the righteousness that comes from God and is by faith.

-- (faith01@myway.com), February 25, 2005.

So you will bring your sinful nature into heaven, only "clothed with the righteousness of Christ."? Because you're not claiming that you have no sinful nature NOW are you?

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), February 25, 2005.

Yes Gail, I'm sorry you missed my answer.

A person cannot sin in Heaven because a person does not have a sinful nature, nor the desire, nor the temptation to sin. Our bodies are completely changed at the coming of our Lord.

-- Luke Juarez (hubertdorm@yahoo.com), February 25, 2005.

Luke, what happens to the soul between the time it leaves the body and the time the "body" is raised?

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), February 25, 2005.

""Consider Abraham: “He believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.” Understand, then, that those who believe are children of Abraham. ""-Faith said.

""No longer will it be sufficient to claim Abraham as Your Father.

The new commandment I give to you...Love one another as I have loved You...pick up your cross and follow Me.""-Christ said

This would suggest to me a more pro-active approach to your salvation mingled [get it] with a necessary degree of suffering.

-- Ming the Merciless (dot4@hotmail.co.uk), February 25, 2005.

For Luke,

“Luke, if I'm following you correctly, then the soul would have to be in a state of ‘slumber’ until judgment . . . ? Something like soul sleep.” – Gail

1. Gail is attempting here to understand what you mean....her conclusion, based on your own information, suggests 'soul slumber'.

“Before Christs death there was no heaven/paradise. The ancient Jews who died went to limbo, all of them.” - Ming

“The parable of Lazarus shows that Lazurus is receiving his reward immediately.” – Gail

According to your purgatory buddy, Lazarus should have been in limbo or “soul sleep.”

2.I'll say it again 'soul sleep' somehow had it's origin in you.

3.Limbo does not suggest to me temporary oblivion, as it's name ['Abrahams comfort']could imply a sure knowledge that the soul will be saved.

“Purgatory, as a fact of life, is true today as it was in the days of the ancient Jews in the same way that God is true yesterday as well as today.” – Ming

4. Meaning that God does not introduce things on a whim to suit the occasion If purgatory exists today as part of Gods plan it existed for as long as His plan For Human salvation existed. How, when or why he uses the objects of His plan only God Can know that.

""Consider this, were sins remissed in purgatory prior to Jesus? If so, then we wouldn't need the sacrifice of Jesus for forgiveness. However, if no sins were remissed in purgatory prior to Jesus, then we need the Calvary gospel. ""Luke

No one suggested Purgatory was being used before Jesus we only know that it existed as part of the plan of salvation. We don't know either if the Jews in Limbo had to pass through Purgatory after Christs death, but only that those in Abrahams Bosom already had the promise of salvation.

-- Ming the Merciless (dot4@hotmail.co.uk), February 25, 2005.

Ming misses the point!

Abraham was justified by faith--and God's promise is to Abraham's descendants, but--not His physical descendants--those who have the same faith.

Romans 3:22-25..

This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.

That verse makes it clear that we cannot suffer enough to pay for our sinfulness.., that our justification comes because of what Jesus Christ did--and that we are considered righteous--freely., which means we don't earn it or have to suffer for it. Christ suffered for us. Give Him all the glory--man!

Romans4:4-7

Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness. David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:

"Blessed are they whose transgressions are forgiven, whose sins are covered. Blessed is the man whose sin the Lord will never count against him.”

No purgatory is necessary..or biblical!

-- (faith01@myway.com), February 25, 2005.

Then is it fair to say, Faith, that your sinful nature is merely "covered" and not eradicated? And that you will simply bring your covered sinful self into heaven?

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), February 25, 2005.

Gail wrote, "will we be able to sin in heaven? If not, why not?"

I don't believe so for it is written in 2 Peter 3:13, "Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells."

There are 3 things that cause us to sin here on this earth and they are spoken of in 1 John 2:16-17 which states, "16 For all that is in the world--the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life--is not of the Father but is of the world. 17 And the world is passing away, and the lust of it; but he who does the will of God abides forever."

Ming wrote, "Before Christs death there was no heaven/paradise."

Where is your proof of this assertion??? I say you cannot prove it...

Ming wrote, "The ancient Jews who died went to limbo, all of them."

This is another assertion that you cannot prove...

Ming wrote, "Abrahams bosom, or Abrahams comfort, was the separation in limbo of those who were with Abraham from those against Abraham by a chasm or gulf which could not be crossed in either direction."

There is no such thing as "limbo"... This is another invention of the Catholic Church...

Ming wrote, "Christ first had to die on the cross, rise from the dead and then ascend in order to prepare a place for us."

The place that He is preparing is "Heaven" not "Paradise"...

You wrote, "Your Protestant innovations with the truth are the source of your confusion."

I am not a "Protestant" as you allege, I am a member of the church of Christ... The church of Christ is not "Protestant" and I can assure what I write is not an "innovation" as you call it...

Ming wrote, "Purgatory, as a fact of life, is true today as it was in the days of the ancient Jews in the same way that God is true yesterday as well as today."

This is another assertion that has no basis in the truth of God's word... I challenge you to prove this from God's word... If you cannot then are you willing to change your beliefs to conform with what God has plainly revealed in His word???

I wrote, "We will be judged by our works here on this earth and either receive a reward or lose our reward for the deeds done in the body... "

To which Ming replied, "Since some protestants say they can never be perfect, so they must always have sin on their souls. To be judged in that state and recieve your just reward according to your own standards, then you must go to Hell, since it is impossible for sin to be in heaven."

Again, I am not a "protestant" and I have never said that one can "never be perfect"... Jesus tells us that we are to be "perfect" (See Matt 5:48).

Ming wrote, "Some other Protestants claim that after baptism they can in effect never sin again to such an extent that it would exclude them from heaven. A claim based on the presunption that sin is possible in heaven."

Again, I am not a "Protestant" and I don't claim as you stated "that after baptism they can in effect never sin again"...

Ming wrote, "The catholic position, i.e. the truth guided by the Holy Spirit, tells us that we are saved by being baptised into Christs body, that we remain in his body, unless we lose His friendship by falling into mortal sin, e.g. by murdering someone, but that we can regain His friendship because He is a Perfectly Mercifull God whose purpose in the world is to save sinners."

First off, the Catholic position as you allege is "not the truth" nor does the Holy Spirit guide them as you assert... If the Holy Spirit is guiding the Catholic Church outside of the word of God, then I challenge you to prove it...

Ming wrote, "Because simply by using logic alone we know it is almost impossible for human nature to be perfect we can say that it is extremely difficult for that murderer to be perfectly sorry for his offence, and since God IS Perfect and we propose to live in Him, we must be made perfect also- You must be Holy because I am Holy-. This 'making perfect' of the human soul to conform to Gods perfection is known as Purgatory."

There is no such thing as "Purgatory" as this is merely an invention of men... The "perfecting" of the Christian happens here on this earth, not in some mythical place that is not even spoken of in the Bible... It is written in Romans 8:13-14, "13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. 14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God."

-- Kevin Walker ("navyscporetired@comcast.net"), February 25, 2005.

"Blessed are they whose transgressions are forgiven, whose sins are covered. Blessed is the man whose sin the Lord will never count against him.”

... This line does not disprove Purgatory "Blessed are they whose transgressions are forgiven," those in Purgatory are already forgiven and are assured heaven and can indeed consider themselves blessed for that reason. "whose sins are covered" they have the assurance of the removal of and freedom from sin through Purgatory because of the sacrifice at Calvary.

I might add finally that nothing in the bible disproves the place called Purgatory, or as you might say, nobody in the Scriptures mentions the word Purgatory.

What you believe and what you don't believe cannot be left to be decided, you would be the first to admit, by the individual person with its 'sinful nature'.

A willingness to experiment with the truth is the inevitable consequence.

This was the purpose of the Holy Spirit being sent into the embryonic catholic church.

The Holy Spirit guards against error and guides the church to all truth.

To claim otherwise is taking a radical and dangerous step.

God Bless and Goodbye.

-- Ming the Merciless (dot4@hotmail.co.uk), February 25, 2005.

Ming wrote, "I might add finally that nothing in the bible disproves the place called Purgatory, or as you might say, nobody in the Scriptures mentions the word Purgatory."

If it is not listed in the Bible and I can assure you it is not, then there is no such place... You have been deceived...

Ming wrote, "What you believe and what you don't believe cannot be left to be decided, you would be the first to admit, by the individual person with its 'sinful nature'."

Who says that we cannot decide for ourselves what the word of God says concerning any given subject??? (See Ephesians 5:17).

Ming wrote, "A willingness to experiment with the truth is the inevitable consequence."

Yea, one might come to a true faith in the gospel and actually obey it...

Ming wrote, "This was the purpose of the Holy Spirit being sent into the embryonic catholic church."

This is another assertion of the Catholic Church that is not true... I can assure you the Holy Spirit has never been a part of this corrupt organization...

Ming wrote, "The Holy Spirit guards against error and guides the church to all truth."

This is another assertion of the Catholic Church that is not true... It was the apostles that were guided into "all truth", not the Catholic Church... lol...

Ming wrote, "To claim otherwise is taking a radical and dangerous step."

In your opinion maybe however, I can assure you that the Catholic Church is far removed from the truth of God's word...

-- Kevin Walker ("navyscporetired@comcast.net"), February 25, 2005.

Paul wrote that, Gail--not me...,or rather, Paul was quoting David.

But I add that because we are covered in the blood of Jesus--we are washed white and clean. We didn't accomplish this ourselves because of any of our own work or suffering--but because of *faith* in His sacrifice and atonement for us. His sacrifice was fully able to save us--washing us completely clean.

Hebrew 10:17-22

Then he adds: “Their sins and lawless acts I will remember no more.” And where these have been forgiven, there is no longer any sacrifice for sin. Therefore, brothers, since we have confidence to enter the Most Holy Place by the blood of Jesus, by a new and living way opened for us through the curtain, that is, his body, and since we have a great priest over the house of God, let us draw near to God with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled to cleanse us from a guilty conscience and having our bodies washed with pure water.

We are born-again., and made new because of Him. At the ressurection-- we receive new, immortal and imperishable bodies.

-- (faith01@myway.com), February 25, 2005.

Thanks Luke

concerning Purgatory:

""This is another assertion that has no basis in the truth of God's word... I challenge you to prove this from God's word... If you cannot then are you willing to change your beliefs to conform with what God has plainly revealed in His word??? ""

I cannot say that the word Purgatory is in the Bible. I can say that Purgatory is a Doctrine of the Roman Catholic Church and as such I must believe it. The same Authority that formed the Church guides the Church and I will not challenge It's authority. The Church I gave my allegiance to is the church I must follow until I die.

There are many mysteries in this Truth which we love, the bible alone cannot be expected to answer them all fully, questions as to what way they work and why, were always to be expected. We are told however that eventually all our questions would be answered, if not here then in the next world. The search for truth is very human and understandable, the truth itself is as infinite and mysterious as God. I can only say that the Scriptures are a starting point, a solid foundation for the start of a search for understanding, and that the Catholic Church provides the human soul with the Life, Truth, courage and enthusiasm to persue God and glimpses of his Truth, was it St.Paul who spoke of casting out into the deep ...with great fear and trembling. That is our position

It was not my intention to offend, Luke. I am not an authority on the truth, but I firmly believe in the One who guides the authority of the Catholic Church and I will cheerfully defend Him and His.

-- Ming (dot4@hotmail.co.uk), February 25, 2005.

Ming--

God tells us that if any teaching cannot be confirmed in the Scriptures, then it is not from Him. It is not truth! He reveals this to us through Peter...

Acts 17:10-11

As soon as it was night, the brothers sent Paul and Silas away to Berea. On arriving there, they went to the Jewish synagogue. Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.

That's a good example for all of us. Examine the Scriptures everyday to see if what is being taught to you--rings true.

-- (faith01@myway.com), February 25, 2005.

Faith,

I cannot find the word Purgatory in the Bible neither can I find the word Protestant nor Potato. Neither can I find in any of the Scriptures any reference to you, Faith, being the new interpreter of Scripture.

Cheerfully then, I say goodbye to you,

-- Ming the Merciless (dot4@hotmail.co.uk), February 25, 2005.

Neither is the word catholic, Ming, to refer to the Church.

That is why there are so many interpretations.

The Christian Yahwist

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), February 25, 2005.

Hey Kevin,

I think that by "limbo" Ming is referring to Abraham's bosom -- not heaven, not hell, and is simply the place where the righteous went PRE-Christ. Christ later set them free, according to 2 Peter (I think).

But anyway, thanks for answering my question. I believe that "nothing impure will enter heaven," and that "without holiness no one will see God." The righteousness we receive from Christ is intrinsic, not extrinsic as most Protestants believe. Faith has said as much. I REJECT extrinsic righteousness being the means by which we are saved as completely unbiblical. (BTW, I believed all of this before I was a Catholic, as I had found Wesley to be a very cohesive biblical scholar in the area of sanctification -- which is very similar to the Catholic view.) Sanctification is at the heart of the issue of purgatory; i.e., the cleansing fire!

The righteousness we receive is intrinsic and manifests itself outwardly. Those outward "signs" or works, of our "intrinsic" righteousness will be judged.

Faith believes, I think, that our, outward "extrinsic" or "external" coat of righteousness is all that matters at the judgment. (Faith, if this is not your position, please correct me.) And further, that we will wear this "coat" over our sinful nature throughout eternity, so that sin will always lurk there in the deep recesses of the soul, but that it won't matter because we have the "coat". I cannot fathom this. It is incomprehensible to me to think that anything impure, no matter how hidden, will or can endure the holy presence of God. The holy fire will consume impurity no matter how hidden.

Catholics believe that real eradication of sin deeply imbedded in the soul must be had; if not in this life, then post death. Purgatory is not really a "place" as we think of it, but rather it is the state of being cleansed -- holy fire -- purging the dross! Purgatory is really just a continuation of the sanctification that began at the moment of our conversion.

Kevin, it is true that there really is not much in scripture that tells us what happens after death. There are scriptures like "absent from the body, present with the Lord," and a few things like that, but really, you have to admit, there's not a whole lot. So that leaves a lot of people to do a lot of guessing. And I VERY MUCH appreciate the way you started one of your posts with "I believe" which is very honest on your part.

Luke has stated he believes the final purification happens at the 2nd coming, but then that means the soul has to remain in a state of impurity until such time as the Lord returns. This is illogical to me, and smacks of "soul sleep."

Well, I just thought I would try to encapsulate what I believe folks are saying in all of this discourse, and to try to encapsulate, to the best of my ability, the Catholic position.

If I have misstated anyone's position, I apologize in advance, and invite you to correct my misinterpretation of your position.

Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), February 25, 2005.

Ming wrote, "I cannot say that the word Purgatory is in the Bible. I can say that Purgatory is a Doctrine of the Roman Catholic Church and as such I must believe it."

If a doctrine is not found in God's word, then it is to be rejected for it came from men and not from God...

Ming wrote, "The same Authority that formed the Church guides the Church and I will not challenge It's authority."

Therein lies the problem Ming, the Catholic Church does not have any authority and the Scriptures that they use to try to prop up their position do not stand the test of the spirits... (See 1 John 4:1-6).

Ming wrote, "The Church I gave my allegiance to is the church I must follow until I die."

If one honestly studies the Scriptures, they will see that many doctrines of Catholicism cannot be found anywhere in the New Testament... Is this a Church that you want to follow who devises man-made rules instead of following what God has plainly revealed in His word??? (See Matthew 7:13-14).

Ming wrote, "There are many mysteries in this Truth which we love, the bible alone cannot be expected to answer them all fully, questions as to what way they work and why, were always to be expected."

No one has ever said that the Bible can answer "all" questions... However the Bible is complete and is all that one is required to study in order to be "complete" as it is written in 2 Timothy 3:16- 17...

Ming wrote, "The search for truth is very human and understandable, the truth itself is as infinite and mysterious as God. I can only say that the Scriptures are a starting point, a solid foundation for the start of a search for understanding, and that the Catholic Church provides the human soul with the Life, Truth, courage and enthusiasm to persue God and glimpses of his Truth, was it St.Paul who spoke of casting out into the deep ...with great fear and trembling. That is our position"

The Catholic Church does not encourage their members to "search for truth"... This Church has already determined what is "truth" and expects their members to conform to their beliefs or they will be "excommunicated"... It is an individual search for "understanding" that leads one to the truth, not that of some organization... God expects every one of us to "seek and you shall find" (See Matthew 7:7), and it is written in Proverbs 8:17, "I love those who love me, And those who seek me diligently will find me."

Gail,

You wrote, "Hey Kevin, I think that by "limbo" Ming is referring to Abraham's bosom -- not heaven, not hell, and is simply the place where the righteous went PRE-Christ. Christ later set them free, according to 2 Peter (I think)."

There is no proof that Christ set up a different place when He died other than what was already prepared, for those who will inherit eternal life - Abraham's bosom or Paradise, for those who will be thrown into the lake of fire - will be on the other side in torments...

You wrote, "But anyway, thanks for answering my question. I believe that "nothing impure will enter heaven," and that "without holiness no one will see God."

You are welcome... :-)

You wrote, "The righteousness we receive from Christ is intrinsic, not extrinsic as most Protestants believe. Faith has said as much. I REJECT extrinsic righteousness being the means by which we are saved as completely unbiblical. (BTW, I believed all of this before I was a Catholic, as I had found Wesley to be a very cohesive biblical scholar in the area of sanctification -- which is very similar to the Catholic view.) Sanctification is at the heart of the issue of purgatory; i.e., the cleansing fire!"

We are being sanctified here on this earth Gail, not in some place called "purgatory"...

You wrote, "The righteousness we receive is intrinsic and manifests itself outwardly. Those outward "signs" or works, of our "intrinsic" righteousness will be judged."

God says in Colossians 1:27-28, "27 To them God willed to make known what are the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles: which is Christ in you, the hope of glory. 28 Him we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus." (See also Luke 17:21).

You wrote, "Catholics believe that real eradication of sin deeply imbedded in the soul must be had; if not in this life, then post death. Purgatory is not really a "place" as we think of it, but rather it is the state of being cleansed -- holy fire -- purging the dross! Purgatory is really just a continuation of the sanctification that began at the moment of our conversion."

It is written in Romans 8:13-14, "13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. 14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God."

Also in Galatians 5:16-26, "16 I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law. 19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self- control. Against such there is no law. 24 And those who are Christ's have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking one another, envying one another."

We are to put off all of these things on this earth, not in "purgatory"...

It is also written in Ephesians 5:8-10, "8 For you were once darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Walk as children of light 9(for the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness, righteousness, and truth), 10 finding out what is acceptable to the Lord."

It is also written in 1 Peter 1:22-23, "22 Since you have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit in sincere love of the brethren, love one another fervently with a pure heart, 23 having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever,"

If one has "purified" their souls by obeying the truth, then how is it that one must also be "purified" in "purgatory"???

We are admonished many times in the New Testament to "put off" the deeds of the flesh for it is written in Romans 6:12-13, "12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts. 13 And do not present your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin, but present yourselves to God as being alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God."

If one does these things as God has commanded, then our cleansing is here on this earth, not in some mythical place "purgatory" that man has imagined... Paul knew that sancitification was on this earth for he wrote in 1 Corinthians 9:24-27, "24 Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may obtain it. 25 And everyone who competes for the prize is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a perishable crown, but we for an imperishable crown. 26 Therefore I run thus: not with uncertainty. Thus I fight: not as one who beats the air. 27 But I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest, when I have preached to others, I myself should become disqualified."

Paul had to "discipline" his body and "bring it into subjection" otherwise he would have been disqualified... He wouldn't have been sent to "purgatory", he would have been thrown into the lake of fire...

You wrote, "Kevin, it is true that there really is not much in scripture that tells us what happens after death. There are scriptures like "absent from the body, present with the Lord," and a few things like that, but really, you have to admit, there's not a whole lot. So that leaves a lot of people to do a lot of guessing."

It is written in Hebrews 9:27, "And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment,"

You wrote, "And I VERY MUCH appreciate the way you started one of your posts with "I believe" which is very honest on your part."

Thank you for being so kind... I really appreciate it... :-)

You wrote, "Luke has stated he believes the final purification happens at the 2nd coming, but then that means the soul has to remain in a state of impurity until such time as the Lord returns. This is illogical to me, and smacks of "soul sleep."

You are correct... There is no such thing as "soul sleep"...

-- Kevin Walker ("navyscporetired@comcast.net"), February 26, 2005.

Hi Kevin,

The thing is, though, we all do not reach a state of real perfection in this age -- some do -- most don't. I think you and I agree that perfection is a requirement for entering heaven because "nothing impure will go there."

What do believe happens to the not-so-perfect believer at the time of death, are they "stuck" in their subperfect state for all eternity?

Secondly, I wonder if you would comment further on "intrinsic versus extrinsic" righteousness. I believe this is a very important issue that has been misshapen by most protestant denominations, and is the underlying seedbed for much heresy. What do you say?

God Bless,

Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), February 26, 2005.

Elpidio,

You're not saying some of the Apostles were protestant and some church of christ and some catholic but, it is the implication. Christ founded one church one religion for the worship of one God. The Holy Spirit, God, was placed By Christ in this church, which is Christs mysterious Body, the members of His church being His Body. The Holy Spirit Guides the Body, the Authority of the church as well as its members. It, the Holy Spirit, as God, guarantees that no error can be taught as Truth in Its Name. There is no lie in God or in His Holy Spirit nor will a lie be permitted by the Holy Spirit to be taught.

As there is only one God, there is also only one Holy Spirit, the same Holy Spirit which Christ told His Apostles would remain with them, His church, for all time.

There was no other Church founded by Christ.

God is indivisible, the Holy Spirit is indivisible.

There were no reformed churches, visible or invisible, in existance for over 1000 years after a name had been agreed and placed on this one universal church.

To claim that this SAME church has not the Holy Spirit remaining in it is calling Christ, God, a liar.

-- Ming the Merciless (dot4@hotmail.co.uk), February 26, 2005.

Dear Ming, The fact is, the assembly of believers (ecclesia – church) has always been called to reform itself. It started with Peter. Regardless of how you interpret the authority of Peter in Matthew 16:17-19, it is followed by Peter being told that his view as to the appropriate way Jesus should deal with Jerusalem was wrong and in need of reforming (“Get behind me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to me; for you are setting your mind not on divine things but on human things.” )

We are constantly called to reform our relationship with God through Jesus. It is a living process “Ecclesia reformata sed simper reformanda” – The church reformed but always to be reformed. The Reformation was not a change from the living Christ, it was a reform against the ossified embellishment of the medieval church.

-- Robert Fretz (pastorfretz@oldstonechurchonline.org), February 26, 2005.

Ming.,

You are too funny.

You come on hear making all your Catholic claims--completely unsupported in Scripture, and then you get mad and run away the minute someone can challenge you with clear Scripture. I fully support what I said to you with Scripture and the best you could do was to run.

I don't blame you for being ill-equipped to deal with someone who knows the Word of God.

Your inadequate reasoning apart from the Scriptures (and steeped in tradition) leaves you with little else to do.

Just remember that it isn't me that you say goodbye to.

It is more than just the *word* purgatory that is absent from the Scriptures. The Scriptures teach contrary to that doctrine, as I showed with various Scriptures that I posted.

The Scriptures don't contain the word Trinity either--yet we can see the doctrine within...

The Scriptures do not teach about a place called Purgatory, so Peter's words about the Bereans should be considered good advice for us all!

Acts 17:10-11

As soon as it was night, the brothers sent Paul and Silas away to Berea. On arriving there, they went to the Jewish synagogue. Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.

-- (faith01@myway.com), February 26, 2005.

No Gail.,

I said that we are completely changed and made new, we are washed clean by the blood of Christ--through faith. Wnd of story. We are made perfect by His work--and not by anything that we do. Your coat analogy does not describe what I believve at all. I said Christ's sacrifice was fully sufficient. We are "given" new and inmmortal, imperishable and thus sinless bodies at the resurrection. We didn't earn them or suffer for them--they are given to us because of Christ. All the praise and glory goes to Him--Amen!

-- (faith01@myway.com), February 26, 2005.

God help you, Faith, and anyone who comes in contact with you.

Their is only one Holy Spirit. He was sent to the church, by Christ,

who said The Holy Spirit would remain in His church for all time.

Any who claim The Holy Spirit is not in the same church call Christ a liar.

This church is the same Catholic Church...outside of which there is no salvation.

BTW I responded to your post because you offered a line by line criticism of a post addressed to someone else.

See you in Purgatory Faith... will you be the one wearing the coat?

Robert Fretz ..There is a difference between reforming within the church and setting up a movement in opposition to it, in the example of Christs 'get behind me satan' St.Peter conceeded to the authority of Christ. Christ left His Authority to the Catholic Church in the Person of the Holy Spirit. Reform movements within the Church must also conceed to the same Authority, The Holy Spirit the Authority of the Catholic Church, in likewise manner.

-- Ming the Merciless (dot4@hotmail.co.uk), February 26, 2005.

Ming,

You ought to step back and ask yourself, "Why?" "Why do I persecute Faith here?"

You ought to go back and reread my very curtious posts to you, in which I am guilty of posting much Scripture--and then seriously consider within your heart, "Why do I persecute Faith?"

Your anger should be directed at the cause of your inability to argue theologically.

I know the truth hurts--I was there., born and raised Catholic! But when the time finally comes when you can no longer ignore the truth in God's Word in favor of tradition--it gets better!

Purgatory doesn't exist Ming--if it did, we would need Christ.

When you are better prepared to discuss the issues raised and you can support yourself with Scripture--do post again : )

-- (faith01@myway.com), February 26, 2005.

That should be, *We wouldn't need Christ*

-- (faith01@myway.com), February 26, 2005.

Oh yes, and no! Ming-- I'll be wearing a white robe!

-- (faith01@myway.com), February 26, 2005.

""You ought to step back and ask yourself, "Why?" "Why do I persecute Faith here?" ""

Is this a mockery? If so thank you very much. I am quite cheerfull actually. Being a lapsed catholic, you must understand, I suppose, your own position as regards Church teaching. The ancient Jewish leaders were very learned too, neither did it do them much good[pit of vipers etc.].

I do hope you will return to the Catholic church someday. Someone with your knowledge of Scriptures could be a Doctor of the church or something.. maybe even a saint..

-- Ming the Merciless (dot4@hotmail.co.uk), February 26, 2005.

"We are 'given' new and inmmortal, imperishable and thus sinless bodies at the resurrection."

We aren't talking about sinless "bodies" we are talking about sinless souls? You see, Faith, the body and the soul are separate!

Is your soul ACTUALLY sinless, Faith? Because if it isn't, you've got some real problems. Or is it that you think your new and improved "sinless" body will cover your "sinful" soul, and that's all you need?

Why can't you just give a simple answer to a simple question: Will your SOUL remain sinful after death?

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), February 26, 2005.

Gail,

You should know that when we die--our souls, which are purified by the blood of Christ through faith in Him, go directly to be with Him. No mention of a pit-stop into purgatory. Then, at the resurrection, we are given perfect bodies to suit our born-again status that we *received* the moment we believed in Him.

And I answered you already--our souls are purified by the blood of Christ--not by anything we do or suffer.

-- (faith01@myway.com), February 26, 2005.

Ming--

I have no idea what you mean by this: Is this a mockery? If so thank you very much. I am quite cheerfull actually.

I asked you why do you persecute me? I'm Faith.

Nevermind--it is a good sign that you do. Jesus said I would be persecuted for His sake.

I am not a lapsed Catholic! lol! I am born-again by the Word of God. Praise God! I could never "lapse-back" for sure : )

The Scriptures tell us that all of us who are found in Him are saints!

-- (faith01@myway.com), February 26, 2005.

It is true that Christ founded one Church, Ming, which according to Matthew was the 12 tribes of Israel.They are called Nazoreans.

Paul, after having a revelation from Jesus Christ around 32 AD opened up the Church to Gentiles.This gentile offshoot is the early Christians.

After AD 70 the church split into 2 groups: Ebionites and Christians. The Christians into the Catholic and Gnostic groups.

By AD 325 there were two competing groups: one called itself Orthodox Catholic and the other Arian.

The Catholics divided again by 425 into Catholics and Nestorians.

Later into Catholics and Monophosites.

By AD 1054 into Roman Catholics and (Greek)Catholic Orthodox.

By the 16th century into Catholics and Ptrotestants (Lutherans,Presbyterians,...)

By 1870 into Catholics and Old Catholics,

by 1980s into Catholics and Pius X Catholics (pre-1962 Vatican II),....

I myself was a conservative Catholic once. I also belonged at one time to the conservative Catholic Action founded by Pius XI.

So in essence, I am still part somehow of the apostolic tradition.

The Christian Yahwist

The Man of Yahweh and the divisions continue.

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), February 26, 2005.

Hello Elpidio,

""It is true that Christ founded one Church,""

So it follows that His Holy Spirit remains in this church untill the end of time.

This has major implications for the Catholic Church.

It means that the teachings of the Catholic Church, Its doctrines and sacraments are valid and usefull and are in accord With the Holy Spirit, God.

-- Ming the Merciless (dot4@hotmail.co.uk), February 26, 2005.

Jesus did send the Holy Spirit to guide His church in all understanding. But this church is His called out Body--not the Roman Catholic religion.

His Body is a true Body of believers who are born-again by His Word.....washed clean and baptised into Him.

The Holy Spirit descends on each of us individually and is not given to an organization!

1 Cor 6:19

Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God?

-- (faith01@myway.com), February 26, 2005.

Faith, you are expert at skirting issues you want to avoid.

Will your SOUL remain sinful after death? YES or NO.

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), February 26, 2005.

Gail,

I don't know why you think I am not clearly answering you when I say that your soull is completely cleansed by the blood of Jesus. This means that there is no sin left. The anser is no, your soul will not have any sin stains at all. But--this is because of Jesus Christ and His work at the cross--not because of any suffering that we might do. Otherwise, we must get some credit and this detracts from God. Give all the credit and praise to Jesus because He cleanses us, we don't cleanse ourselves. It was His sacrifice and suffering that makes it possible for us to enter heaven as perfect creatures.

I have not skirted your question at all--but have answered it completely.

-- (faith01@myway.com), February 27, 2005.

Gail,

You wrote, "What do believe happens to the not-so-perfect believer at the time of death, are they "stuck" in their subperfect state for all eternity?"

God says in James 1:12, "Blessed is the man who endures temptation; for when he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him."

God also says in Hebrews 12:4, "You have not yet resisted to bloodshed, striving against sin."

We strive against sin in this lifetime while we are here on this earth... Peter spoke about the things we are to do in order that we might make our call and election sure and have an abundant entrance into heaven when he wrote in 2 Peter 1:5-11, "5 But also for this very reason, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue, to virtue knowledge, 6 to knowledge self-control, to self-control perseverance, to perseverance godliness, 7 to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness love. 8 For if these things are yours and abound, you will be neither barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 For he who lacks these things is shortsighted, even to blindness, and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins. 10 Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble; 11 for so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ."

You wrote, "Secondly, I wonder if you would comment further on "intrinsic versus extrinsic" righteousness. I believe this is a very important issue that has been misshapen by most protestant denominations, and is the underlying seedbed for much heresy. What do you say?"

I am not sure what you mean by "intrinsic" and "extrinsic" righteousness... Can you please explain??? Thanks... :-)

-- Kevin Walker ("navyscporetired@comcast.net"), February 27, 2005.

Hi Kevin,

Yes, yes, you know I agree with all of your scripture quotes, but they have to do with striving for excellence or "perfection" on this earthly journey. Some (most) of us don't reach that state of perfection before we die. Do you believe that those who don't reach perfection (or maturity) before their earthly journey is over are lost eternally upon their earthly demise?

As to intrinsic versus extrinsic, this is VERY important in the understanding of salvation. Intrinsic righteousness generally means an "internal" real expunging of the sinful nature. Extrinsic (some say forensic) righteousness is simply a "covering" as many believe . . . a "cloak of righteousness," "covered by the blood," are phrases used to describe this kind of belief in salvation. Luther popularized this notion, but prior to that it was UNHEARD OF!

The Church has ALWAYS taught that REAL, INTRINSIC righteousness must be "worked out" in the way of a true conversion of the heart translating into good works. From our talks, I think you would probably definitely fall into the "intrinsic" camp.

Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), February 27, 2005.

Gail,

Kevin misuses the Scriptures to suit his theology. It's so funny that he is more Catholic than he even realizes, and it explains why you seem to think he knows Scripture so well. But he doesn't. I don't care how learned he is, so is the Jehovah Witness. In fact, nose to nose, Jehovah Witness will stump most of us all the time. But they are still wrong.

Kevin seems to think that we can somehow obtain perfection--even though Jesus said that it was impossible with man. He added that God has made a way--and that way is Jesus Christ.

The Bible is clear that no one is perfect, no one is good--no, not one of us.

It is true that only perfection can enter heaven.

So we must ask ourselves, how? How then can we be saved? It is hopeless if we think we can save ourselves or somehow purify ourselves because Jesus already said it is impossible.

If only perfection can enter heaven and we cannot ever be perfect, what is the solution?

The Bible tells us that the solution is Jesus Christ. The Bible says that we are made perfect because of His blood--when we are, by faith, found in Him.

Why is this so hard, and why is it resisted?

Is it so hard to accept such a free gift?

Salvation is the free gift of God, because He has mercy on us., the sinner. The Scriptures tell us that in order to receive this *forgiveness* [cancelation] of the debt we owe--which is death and eteral separation from God, we need to *believe* in Jesus Christ and His sacrifice that was made for us. He paid the debt we owe--with His suffering and His blood. He conquered death, He conquered Satan--He conquered evil.

His blood purifies those of us who have put their faith in Him to save us. We are baptised [washed clean] by the Holy Spirit. Purgatory is not necessary because Jesus' fully paid the debt.

Now that we have been delivered from sin--we can live obedient lives and follow Jesus. Not to get saved, but because we are saved. Jesus saved us--those of us who accept Him as Savior--that is.

Why don't you or Kevin believe that Jesus could actually do this without your help?

-- (faith01@myway.com), February 28, 2005.

italics off

-- (faith01@myway.com), February 28, 2005.

Faith,

I have had numerous conversations with JW's and I assure you I have never been "stumped," and I would bet my last dollar that Kevin would have them "running for the hills."

You try to insult Kevin by calling him almost "Catholic." We do have some very strong agreements and we have some very strong disagreements, but the thing is Kevin is "honestly seeking truth."

I hope that Kevin is not too terribly insulted by your calling him the name that I go by! (Why, Faith, you have managed to smack two faces with one towel dipped in sarcasm. What a skill you have acquired!)

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), February 28, 2005.

Why, Gail,

Do you ignore the real point of my post to try and make me out to be the bad guy??

Nice tactic--however, can you answer the question?

Why is it that you don't think Christ's suffering was sufficient enough to save you?

-- (faith01@myway.com), February 28, 2005.

Faith,

Of course no one can achieve perfection. The question is "do we have an obligation to TRY to be"?

When you say something like

"Why is it that you don't think Christ's suffering was sufficient enough to save you?"

it leads me to believe you think that if you feel "saved", then you can go on living whatever sinful life you want because of Christ's sacrifice. Of course some people try and say "no, if you are TRULY saved, you won't act like that", but that's attempting to dodge the issue. It is either:

1. Christ's sacrifice will save us IF we long for it, and try to do the best we can, and obey His commands in His church.

2. Christ's sacrifice has saved us if we believe REGARDLESS of what we do. This seems like what you believe by your quote, but seems rather foolish to me. I don't think Christ wanted a bunch of murderers and rapists running around "believing" but continuing to commit their crimes.

Frank

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), February 28, 2005.

Actually faith made a good point of saying that the Soirit of God also can rest in each believer, something we are supposed to receive in baptism if we are Catholics, not just n the hierachy of the Church.

The Christian Yahwist

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), February 28, 2005.

But Frank,

This discussion is about the doctrine of purgatory.

Gail thinks that purgatory mperfects the soul--is a sort of final purification so that we can be acceptable in heaven.

But the Scriptures tell us that Jesus' sacrifice purifies us. We are made perfect by His suffering.

Therefore purgatory is a man-made doctrine--designed by people who didn't recognize the full sufficiency of Jesus' work at Calvary.

All the glory goes to Him alone.

If we too--suffer--in purgatory, then some of that glory must go to us. The doctrine of purgatory denies Christ's completed work and detracts from His glory.

I do not deny that we are to follow Christ in this life--that we will suffer hardship in this life and that we should be obedient. But this is possible for us because of Jesus Christ--and it has nothing to do with purifying our souls for heaven, as Kevin would suggest.

-- (faith01@myway.com), February 28, 2005.

"Why is it that you don't think Christ's suffering was sufficient enough to save you?"

Not only is it enough for me, but it is enough for you, and the entire world, it is enough to atone for the sins of every single human being that was ever born from the beginning of time to the end of time! Actually, the Catechism says Christ's merit is a "superabundance."

But we aren't made in His likeness overnight, are we, Faith? I mean, can you say that you are ACTUALLY and REALLY an exact replication of Christ NOW? Do you mirror Him perfectly NOW? Are you completely holy in word, thought and deed?

If you aren't completely and utterly holy, will you go on being sinful and selfish in heaven? Will you continue to cast about insults to all of your brethren in heaven, with a heart full of seething hatred? Will you run from brother to sister with your Bible open correcting all of those who don't fit YOUR mold? Will you spend every breath you have sewing seeds of division amongst brethren? Will you continue to belittle every member of Christ's family, picking and taunting those for whom Christ died? Is that what "perfection" is to you, Faith?

Or will you finally learn what the meaning of the word "charity" is? Because that's really what perfection is all about . . . pure, holy, unadulterated, LOVE! And we WILL reach a perfect state of that love, because "He that began a good work in you is faithful to COMPLETE IT!"

Purgatory is simply about "completing" that which was "begun" by Him!

Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), February 28, 2005.

Oh please, Gail..

Stick to the topic.

You are a contradiction. If Jesus sacrifice was fully sufficient and able to save us--why would we have to also add to His suffering, by suffering too? Didn't He suffer quite enough?

If His atonement was complete--if God has fully forgiven us because of Jesus' sacrifice--what more could be needed?

I never said we are perfect in this life. On the contrary, you know that I said no one is perfect.

The Scriptures tell us that at the rapture/resurrection, we are changed--in a twinkling of an eye, we are given immortal bodies-- incoruptable bodies, made perfect t match our souls which were cleansed by the blood of Jesus..

-- (faith01@myway.com), February 28, 2005.

Faith

This discussion is about the doctrine of purgatory.

Gail thinks that purgatory mperfects the soul--is a sort of final purification so that we can be acceptable in heaven.

But the Scriptures tell us that Jesus' sacrifice purifies us. We are made perfect by His suffering.

Therefore purgatory is a man-made doctrine--designed by people who didn't recognize the full sufficiency of Jesus' work at Calvary

No, part of the reason you believe as you do is because you are using Martin Luther's abbreviated Bible, rather than the complete Bible. Read 2 Maccabees and let me know what you think. The thing is Faith, we do NOT take our sins into the presence of the Lord when we die. Where do they go? Whatever answer you come up with for that is what a Catholic would call Purgatory, purifying us to be in God's presence.

Frank

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), February 28, 2005.

The Rapture? That is most definitely not in the Bible! You have problems with purgatory but believe in the Rapture?

Frank

-- someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), February 28, 2005.

Yes Frank,

In the same way that the word Trinity is not found in the Scriptures-- but we can see the revelation, the same is true for the Rapture. The rapture and resurrection are the same occasion...

1 Cor 15:51-52

Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed– in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.

Supported again here:

1 Thess. 4:13-18

Brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant about those who fall asleep, or to grieve like the rest of men, who have no hope. We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him.

According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. Therefore encourage each other with these words.

-- (faith01@myway.com), February 28, 2005.

Hi Frank, those that have a "once saved always saved" theology typically do buy into the unbiblical rapture theology. It is the "easy gospel, no cross," with an escape hatch, "the rapture."

"Being made into the image of Christ" is something that too many Christians do not feel is necessary, and since being made into His image requires a "cross" it has become wholly unpalatable, and alas, unpopular in our day.

The joy of becoming like Christ is the end-all, the ultimate, the climax, the realization of His glory reflected in our hearts -- that's what it's all about. That is the goal, and if it is not completed in this life, it will be in the next. This is the grace of God! Why anyone would want to tote their sin-man around with them in heaven is just beyond me!

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), February 28, 2005.

No Faith, that's just a case of you believing what you want. I can find quotes supporting the concept of Purgatory, but you won't believe them because you don't want to. I can use the same concept of the Trinity not being in the Bible, but you STILL won't believe in it because you don't want to.

The point is that Purgatory was believed in LONG before anyone doubted it, and LONG before Martin Luther chopped up the Bible. Don't try and claim your belief in the Rapture is Scriptural though, before the 1800's or so no one had even had a bad dream about it. No one can take seriously that Christ's Truth was hidden from humanity for 1800 years after His resurrection, therefore any NEW belief showing up at that time is obviously a false doctrine of man -- like the Rapture.

Frank

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), February 28, 2005.

Faith, you're posting 2nd coming passages and applying it the rapture again. Jesus says he's only coming one more time. (Guess someone forgot to tell him He has two more trips to make).

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), February 28, 2005.

You are wrong Frank.

There were theologians in the early church who did indeed recognize the revelation about the Rapture--and they wrote about it.

And Gail....

The rapture of the church is not the Second Coming of Christ to the world as King and Judge. The rapture is only one part of the return of the Lord. Christ here returns to the clouds only to meet the saints in the air. The Second Coming of Christ as King is explained in later chapters under the Day of the Lord.

-- (faith01@myway.com), February 28, 2005.

Oh and Gail--being made into the image of Christ is not accomplished by our own crosses--but at the foot of His cross.

-- (faith01@myway.com), February 28, 2005.

Gail,

You wrote, "Hi Kevin, Yes, yes, you know I agree with all of your scripture quotes, but they have to do with striving for excellence or "perfection" on this earthly journey."

That is a good starting point... :-)

You wrote, "Some (most) of us don't reach that state of perfection before we die. Do you believe that those who don't reach perfection (or maturity) before their earthly journey is over are lost eternally upon their earthly demise?"

Not at all Gail... God watches over our souls and He knows if we are really striving to do His will and keep His commandments and will keep us here on this earth until such a time as He deems necessary... It is written in James 1:12, "Blessed is the man who endures temptation; for when he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him." The trials that we go through in life perfect our faith... (See 1 Peter 1:6-7 and 1 Peter 5:10).

You wrote, "As to intrinsic versus extrinsic, this is VERY important in the understanding of salvation. Intrinsic righteousness generally means an "internal" real expunging of the sinful nature. Extrinsic (some say forensic) righteousness is simply a "covering" as many believe . . . a "cloak of righteousness," "covered by the blood," are phrases used to describe this kind of belief in salvation. Luther popularized this notion, but prior to that it was UNHEARD OF!"

We are covered by the blood of Jesus however, our sinful nature is not covered without our working to put it off... (See Romans 8:13, 1 Corinthians 10:3-6, Galatians 5:17-26).

You wrote, "The Church has ALWAYS taught that REAL, INTRINSIC righteousness must be "worked out" in the way of a true conversion of the heart translating into good works. From our talks, I think you would probably definitely fall into the "intrinsic" camp."

Exactly... God says in Galatians 5:16, "I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh."

-- Kevin Walker ("navyscporetired@comcast.net"), February 28, 2005.

Ephraem's Teaching on the Pre-Tribulation Rapture

"For all the saints and Elect of God are gathered, prior to the Tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins" (On the Last Times, the Antichrist, and the End of the World, by Ephraem the Syrian, A.D. 373).

The early Christian writer and poet, Ephraem the Syrian, (who lived from A.D. 306 to 373) was a major theologian of the early Byzantine Eastern Church. He was born near Nisbis, in the Roman province of Syria, near present day Edessa, Turkey. Ephraem displayed a profound love of the Scriptures in his writings as illustrated by several of his written comments quoted in the Works of Nathaniel Lardner, Vol. 4, 1788. "I esteem no man more happy than him, who diligently reads the Scriptures delivered to us by the Spirit of God, and thinks how he may order his conversation by the precepts of them." To this day, his hymns and homilies are used in the liturgy of the Greek Orthodox and Middle Eastern Nestorian Church. While the sixteen-volume Post- Nicene Library includes a number of homilies and psalms by Ephraem the Syrian, the editors noted that he also wrote a large number of commentaries that have never been translated into English.

Ephraem's fascinating teaching on the Antichrist has never been published in English until now. This critically important prophecy manuscript from the fourth century of the Church era reveals a literal method of interpretation and a teaching of the Pre-Millennial return of Christ. More importantly, Ephraem's text revealed a very clear statement about the Pre-Tribulational return of Christ to take His elect saints home to heaven to escape the coming Tribulation. In addition, Ephraem declares his belief in a personal, Jewish Antichrist, who will rule the Roman Empire during the last days, a rebuilt temple, the two witnesses and a literal Great Tribulation lasting 1,260 days. It is also fascinating to note that he taught that the War of God and Magog would precede the Tribulation period. I discovered another text by Ephraem, called The Book of the Cave of Treasure, that revealed he taught that Daniel's Seventieth Week will be fulfilled in the final seven years at the end of this age that will conclude with Christ's return at the Battle of Armageddon to establish His kingdom.

Early rapture teachings

-- (faith01@myway.com), February 28, 2005.

Hi Kevin,

I'm not sure if I can see how you are interpreting those scriptures to mean that "God will keep us here on earth until we are perfect." There's a whole bunch of us that don't make it to perfection on earth, though we may have begun the journey. Am I understanding you correctly? Are you saying a believer must be perfected on earth, or pre-death, in order to make it heaven?

If that's what you're saying, I think very very few of us would make it.

Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), February 28, 2005.

Faith wrote, "Kevin misuses the Scriptures to suit his theology."

Ha, that is your opinion isn't it Faith... When you start proving this to be true, then everyone will believe you... Until that time, all you are doing is just making assertions that are not the least bit true...

Faith wrote, "It's so funny that he is more Catholic than he even realizes, and it explains why you seem to think he knows Scripture so well. But he doesn't."

This is another fine assertion you have made Faith with absolutely no proof whatsoever to back it up... You claim that the Catholics don't know Scripture, well you really don't know them yourself... If as you claim I don't know Scripture, then I would like to suggest that you get busy correcting my errors... This you have not done... I sent another thread to the top 3 times to get you to answer and to date you have been silent... I can get you a link to the thread if you would like... As for being Catholic, are you trying to insult me Faith??? You know that my posts are completely anti-Catholic and yet you call me "Catholic"... Give me a break... If this is the best that you can do is call me names instead of answer my posts, then so be it...

Faith wrote, "I don't care how learned he is, so is the Jehovah Witness. In fact, nose to nose, Jehovah Witness will stump most of us all the time. But they are still wrong."

Sorry, this is another assertion of yours Faith that is not the least bit true... Wow... How can you make the blanket statement, "In fact, nose to nose, Jehovah Witness will stump most of us all the time" when you don't even know what our responses would be to them??? Can you read our minds Faith???

Faith wrote, "Kevin seems to think that we can somehow obtain perfection--even though Jesus said that it was impossible with man."

Jesus said nothing of the sort... This is Faith's misrepresenting and taking out of context what Jesus said... Let's take a look at this verse and see if what Faith is saying is true... It is found in Matt 19:25-26, The apostles asked the question in verse 25, "Who then can be saved?" and Jesus answered in verse 26 "With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible." I have never said that man or Kevin can save anyone now have I Faith??? I have said and will continue to say what the Bible teaches that we are to do exactly as it is written in Philippians 2:12, "work out your own salvation with fear and trembling;"

Please tell us Faith how it was not possible for the rich young ruler in Matthew 19:21 to do as Jesus instructed him to "sell what you have and give to the poor"...

The truth of the matter is the rich young ruler could have sold what he had and given to the poor and he would have been "perfect" just as Jesus said in that very same verse... To claim that the rich man was "not able to sell what he had" is just ludicrous... If the rich man would have sold all that he had and given to the poor, this would not have made him "earn" his salvation, nor would he have anything to boast before God... He would not be able to do those things because Jesus "commanded" him to do it if he wanted to be perfect and this he did not do...

Faith wrote, "He added that God has made a way--and that way is Jesus Christ."

Yes, the way is through Jesus Christ however that does not mean that we are to do nothing after we have been saved by obedience to the gospel of Christ... A Christian must bear fruit or else for it is written in John 15:2, "Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit." and in John 15:6, "If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned."

Faith wrote, "The Bible is clear that no one is perfect, no one is good--no, not one of us. It is true that only perfection can enter heaven. So we must ask ourselves, how? How then can we be saved? It is hopeless if we think we can save ourselves or somehow purify ourselves because Jesus already said it is impossible. If only perfection can enter heaven and we cannot ever be perfect, what is the solution? The Bible tells us that the solution is Jesus Christ. The Bible says that we are made perfect because of His blood--when we are, by faith, found in Him."

This is the problem with your doctrine Faith, it promotes a "do nothing salvation plan"... You rest only on Jesus Christ and "do nothing else" in order to remain saved... This is a false doctrine that those in denominations teach that will cause many to be lost... God says in 1 John 2:29, "If you know that He is righteous, you know that everyone who practices righteousness is born of Him."

Since you claim that we are only righteous because of Jesus, then you must not practice "righteousness" and therefore cannot be saved...

It is also written in 1 John 3:7, "Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous."

Finally in 1 John 3:10, "Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God"

Are you really "of God" Faith???

Your posts prove just the opposite...

Faith wrote, "Why is this so hard, and why is it resisted?"

Jesus has done His part, and it is up to us to do our part... Whether you choose to accept it or not, we will be judged by our works... (See Revelation 20:12). Do you really love Jesus Faith??? If you did, then you would not rail against what Jesus said in John 14:15, "If you love Me, keep My commandments." Why do you seem to think that we cannot do the very thing that Jesus commands and why do you resist His words???

Faith wrote, "Is it so hard to accept such a free gift?"

Yes, the gift is "free" however it does have conditions... Those conditions are obedience to the gospel and obedience to God's commandments...

Faith wrote, "Salvation is the free gift of God, because He has mercy on us., the sinner. The Scriptures tell us that in order to receive this *forgiveness* [cancelation] of the debt we owe--which is death and eteral separation from God, we need to *believe* in Jesus Christ and His sacrifice that was made for us. He paid the debt we owe--with His suffering and His blood. He conquered death, He conquered Satan--He conquered evil."

We must do more than believe for it is written in James 2:19, "You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe-- and tremble!"

Faith wrote, "His blood purifies those of us who have put their faith in Him to save us."

Only if we do as it is written in 1 John 1:7, "But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin."

Faith wrote, "We are baptised [washed clean] by the Holy Spirit."

This is another assertion of yours that is not found in God's word... We are born of the Spirit but not the way that you believe... What is it that produces Faith??? Is it some external working of the Holy Spirit or is it through the word of God???

Faith wrote, "Purgatory is not necessary because Jesus' fully paid the debt."

Yes, purgatory is a false doctrine that cannot be found in the Bible...

Faith wrote, "Now that we have been delivered from sin--we can live obedient lives and follow Jesus."

One is delivered from sin once they have obeyed the gospel... One must be obedient to God in hearing the gospel, believing the gospel, repenting of their sins, confessing their faith in the gospel and being baptized in water for the remission of their sins... One is not delivered from sin until they have done these things that God commands...

Faith wrote, "Not to get saved, but because we are saved. Jesus saved us--those of us who accept Him as Savior--that is."

We only have salvation as a promise in this life... We will not receive salvation until Jesus returns for it is written in Hebrews 9:27-28, "27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment, 28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation."

Faith wrote, "Why don't you or Kevin believe that Jesus could actually do this without your help?"

You really don't believe what you read in the Bible do you Faith??? There are many verses that show us that we are to work out our salvation, we are to put to death the deeds of the body, we are to be holy and yet you reject these things... Why is this the case??? Does Jesus do these things for us??? Certainly not...

-- Kevin Walker ("navyscporetired@comcast.net"), February 28, 2005.

Gail,

No, that isn't really what I meant to say... God knows how long He will keep us here on this earth so that we will continue to be obedient to Him in heaven... I think that is the reason that He created us as mortals so that He could test our faith here on this earth to see if we would obey Him... We can never boast that we have done many things to "earn" our salvation for we have only done the things that were commanded for us to accomplish... (See Luke 17:9- 10).

The road to salvation is long and difficult but as it is written in Matthew 7:14, "Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it."

We continue as Paul wrote in Philippians 3:12-15, "12 Not that I have already attained, or am already perfected; but I press on, that I may lay hold of that for which Christ Jesus has also laid hold of me. 13 Brethren, I do not count myself to have apprehended; but one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind and reaching forward to those things which are ahead, 14 I press toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus."

Hope this helps...

-- Kevin Walker ("navyscporetired@comcast.net"), February 28, 2005.

Yes, I think I understand your position, that the Lord will prevent a believer from dying until perfection is reached. The scripture you use to support that is a little weak though, in my opinion. 1 Cor 3:15 speaks of the fire of purification (my paraphase), and gives the impression of one escaping a burning house with nothing between him and it but the hair on his chinny-chin-chin!

If you are correct, though, that the Lord will allow the believer to live until perfection is reached, it would seem that we would have a lot of really OLD Christians running around, because I think for most, that level of complete and utter Christlikeness is RARELY reached!

Hey, BTW, what exactly do you mean by "perfection"? Just wanna make sure we're on the same page here.

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), February 28, 2005.

The verse in Corinthians speaks of a testing of our works by putting our works through the fire--not us!

The verse then says that even if our works don't survive--we are still saved--but uses the analogy of the fire in saying that we are saved because we escaped judgement even though our works burned-up!!

This is a weak verse to support the doctrine of purgatory...

-- (faith01@myway.com), February 28, 2005.

How pompous of anyone who would think that they could achieve Christlikeness in this life. That is so utterly unbiblical. It is not rare--it is impossible!

-- (faith01@myway.com), February 28, 2005.

Gail,

You wrote, Yes, I think I understand your position, that the Lord will prevent a believer from dying until perfection is reached. The scripture you use to support that is a little weak though, in my opinion. 1 Cor 3:15 speaks of the fire of purification (my paraphase), and gives the impression of one escaping a burning house with nothing between him and it but the hair on his chinny-chin- chin! If you are correct, though, that the Lord will allow the believer to live until perfection is reached, it would seem that we would have a lot of really OLD Christians running around, because I think for most, that level of complete and utter Christlikeness is RARELY reached! Hey, BTW, what exactly do you mean by "perfection"? Just wanna make sure we're on the same page here."

No Gail, I did not mean that God would let the Christian live until they achieved "perfection"... God tests us to make sure that we are going to obey Him and continue to obey Him when we are in Heaven... This passage is what I mean by being "perfect" in 2 Corinthians 7:1 which states, "Therefore, having these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God."

Paul admonished the church at Colossae in Colossians 1:28, "Him we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus."

And in James 1:2-5, "2 My brethren, count it all joy when you fall into various trials, 3 knowing that the testing of your faith produces patience. 4 But let patience have its perfect work, that you may be perfect and complete, lacking nothing."

Hope that helps...

Faith wrote, "The verse in Corinthians speaks of a testing of our works by putting our works through the fire--not us!"

Please explain to us Faith how our "works" are going to be burned??? Which works are you talking about???

Faith wrote, "The verse then says that even if our works don't survive--we are still saved--but uses the analogy of the fire in saying that we are saved because we escaped judgement even though our works burned-up!!"

Again, what "works" of ours will be burned up???

Faith wrote, "How pompous of anyone who would think that they could achieve Christlikeness in this life. That is so utterly unbiblical. It is not rare--it is impossible!"

God says in 1 Corinthians 11:1, "Imitate me, just as I also imitate Christ."

God also says in 1 John 2:3-6, "3 Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4 He who says, "I know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5 But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him. 6 He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked."

God says in 1 John 3:9, "Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God."

What is this "seed"???

God says in Luke 8:11, "Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God."

Jesus said in Mark 8:34-38, "Whoever desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow Me. 35 For whoever desires to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake and the gospel's will save it. 36 For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul? 37 Or what will a man give in exchange for his soul? 38 For whoever is ashamed of Me and My words in this adulterous and sinful generation, of him the Son of Man also will be ashamed when He comes in the glory of His Father with the holy angels."

If we allow God's word to dwell in us, we will not sin...

The mystery among the Gentiles is this: "which is Christ in you, the hope of glory." (Colossians 1:27).

Here it is in another passage in Luke 17:21, "nor will they say, 'See here!' or 'See there!' For indeed, the kingdom of God is within you."

Paul wrote in Galatians 2:20, "I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me."

Finally in Eph 3:17-19, "17 that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith; that you, being rooted and grounded in love, 18 may be able to comprehend with all the saints what is the width and length and depth and height-- 19 to know the love of Christ which passes knowledge; that you may be filled with all the fullness of God."

To claim that one cannot become "Christlike in this life" is false...

-- Kevin Walker ("navyscporetired@comcast.net"), February 28, 2005.

Yes, Kevin, that did help, and we are on the same page.

*****

Faith says "How pompous of anyone who would think that they could achieve Christlikeness in this life. That is so utterly unbiblical. It is not rare--it is impossible!" UNBIBLICAL . . .? IMPOSSIBLE? What do you think it means to be a Christian? The word ITSELF means 'little Christ.' Does the name "Christian" offend you as well?

You are offended at "Christ-like-ness"? Don't you want to be like- Christ, Faith? Isn't that supposed to be the goal of every Christian? Living a completely selfLESS life for the glory of God, pouring yourself out for the love of others? Loving God with your whole heart and soul and loving your neighbor as yourself is what being a Christian is, and THIS OFFENDS YOU?

Christ says that "every branch that does not bear FRUIT in me is cast into the fire." That is what JESUS said. He expects fruit, he demands fruit, and if you don't bear fruit, you are only fit for the furnace. Those are the words of the Lord!

You, Faith, have a created a Jesus that is not found in the Bible. He is a reckless sort of fellow that winks at sin, has NO demands, NO expectations, and does not expect His FOLLOWERS to "imitate" Him! All they have to do is "get saved" and the rest is, as they say, "in the bag."

Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), February 28, 2005.

We are to follow Christ, and be obedient to God's will. But this is only possible for us when we put on His righteousness through faith. We will never be found perfect first. We are found perfect because of His perfection. Salvation is the deliverence from sin and its penalty- -and with Christ in us--only then can we even come close to Christlikeness. And even still--we won't be made perfect until the resurrection. Jesus makes us perfect, we don't perfect ourselves.

Gail thinks that the verse in 1 Corinthians has to do with perfecting us--but as I pointed out--it has to do with our works.

Kevin asks, "What works?"

Well Kevin, you'll have to take that up God. In my opinion, the verse is refering to what we as Christians do to build-up the Body of Christ. There are many Christians who do much to further the cause of Christ--and there are Christians who do little. Each of us will be *rewarded* according to what our works were worth--but this has nothing to do with salvation. Christians are already saved and do not face condemnation. The verse makes it clear that this has nothing to do with the question of whether a Christian is saved or not based on anything he does...

1 Cor. 3:10-15

By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as an expert builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one should be careful how he builds. For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 1his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's work. If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames.

***************************

Even the most uneffective Christian will be saved and it is because we escape judgement based on what Jesus did., not what we do. We are saved by our faith.

-- (faith01@myway.com), March 01, 2005.

Yes, Faith, "Even the most uneffective Christian will be saved," and he will be minus the wood, hay and stubble.

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), March 01, 2005.

So do you agree that this verse really does not have anything to do with purgatory as the Catholic doctrine insists? It has nothing to do with purifying us....it speaks about our works and what value did they have?

Does the catholic Church have any other Scripture to uphold their teaching, or is this one it???

-- (faith01@myway.com), March 01, 2005.

Faith,

Here are some scripture refs. for you, copied from here

How do we know that purgatory exists? It is never mentioned in the Bible, so where did the Catholic tradition about Purgatory come from?

Although the word "purgatory" is not mentioned in the Bible, the reality of purgatory is clearly mentioned there. The words "Trinity" and "incarnation" and "Bible" are not mentioned in the Bible, but these realities are revealed there. Jesus speaks of sins to be forgiven in the life to come (Matthew 12:23). Saint Paul speaks of those saved in the next life "through fire" (1 Corinthians 3:15). Saint Peter speaks of the "spirits in prison" (1 Peter 3:18-20) and of the Gospel "preached to the dead" (1 Peter 4:6). The Bible explicitly tells us to pray for the dead (2 Maccabees 12:44-46). Besides being found in Sacred Tradition, which explicitly affirms the existence of purgatory, it is clearly that the doctrine of it existence is also found in Sacred Scripture.

Frank

P.S. The trouble is Faith, if you won't believe something, you won't regardless of what people present to you. Now here you have a particular problem in that you don't believe all of the Bible is inspired. Until you get over THAT problem, you'll have trouble with a lot of things.

Frank

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), March 01, 2005.

All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, ARE INDEED ASSURED OF THEIR ETERNAL SALVATION; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven. Catechism of the Catholic Church.

***********

The refiner's fire is an analogy used throughout scripture, Faith. I don't have time to look up all the references, and you probably won't read them anyway. The Corinthians passage is one of MANY references to holy fire.

Either you believe you are undergoing NOW and will undergo ACTUAL INTRINSIC purification or you don't. There are only two choices here. Either Christ is and will purify us completely or He won't. Apparently, you believe that you will present your unpurified self to heaven and that you will remain unpurified for all eternity, which stretches credulity!

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), March 01, 2005.

We are purified by the blood of Christ--Gail. It is by His work, suffering and atonement that we are made clean. It is not by any suffering or work of our own. That is what the Bible reveals.

-- (faith01@myway.com), March 01, 2005.

Faith, don't you think I know that? Where have I ever said that our own suffering cleanses us? NO WHERE. I provided a quote from the Catechism, didn't you read it?

****

All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, ARE INDEED ASSURED OF THEIR ETERNAL SALVATION; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven. Catechism of the Catholic Church.

****

Where do you see in the above quote that our "own suffering" cleanses us? Or where have I ever said that?

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), March 01, 2005.

Faith wrote, "We are to follow Christ, and be obedient to God's will. But this is only possible for us when we put on His righteousness through faith. We will never be found perfect first. We are found perfect because of His perfection. Salvation is the deliverence from sin and its penalty- -and with Christ in us--only then can we even come close to Christlikeness. And even still--we won't be made perfect until the resurrection. Jesus makes us perfect, we don't perfect ourselves."

God says in 2 Corinthians 7:1, "Therefore, having these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God." We most certainly are "perfecting" ourselves...

Faith wrote, "Well Kevin, you'll have to take that up God."

I didn't ask God, I asked you...

Faith wrote, "In my opinion, the verse is refering to what we as Christians do to build-up the Body of Christ. There are many Christians who do much to further the cause of Christ--and there are Christians who do little. Each of us will be *rewarded* according to what our works were worth--but this has nothing to do with salvation. Christians are already saved and do not face condemnation. The verse makes it clear that this has nothing to do with the question of whether a Christian is saved or not based on anything he does..."

You didn't answer the question so I will ask you again, what works of ours will be burned according to these verses???

Faith wrote, "Even the most uneffective Christian will be saved and it is because we escape judgement based on what Jesus did., not what we do. We are saved by our faith."

Tell that to the unprofitable servant of whom it is written in Matthew 25:24-30, "24 Then he who had received the one talent came and said, 'Lord, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you have not sown, and gathering where you have not scattered seed. 25 And I was afraid, and went and hid your talent in the ground. Look, there you have what is yours.' 26 But his lord answered and said to him, 'You wicked and lazy servant, you knew that I reap where I have not sown, and gather where I have not scattered seed. 27 So you ought to have deposited my money with the bankers, and at my coming I would have received back my own with interest. 28 Therefore take the talent from him, and give it to him who has ten talents. 29 For to everyone who has, more will be given, and he will have abundance; but from him who does not have, even what he has will be taken away. 30 And cast the unprofitable servant into the outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.'"

His trusting in what Jesus did alone and did nothing of himself caused him to be cast out...

-- Kevin Walker ("navyscporetired@comcast.net"), March 01, 2005.

This thread is too long, so please move it to the new thread. see post e,ideatley after this one.

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), March 01, 2005.

http://greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=00Cpf2

This is the new thread...

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), March 01, 2005.

Sorry Kevin,

But this parable is in reference to the difference in attitudes of those of us who are waiting for Christ's return--and those who obviously are not. The difference is between true believers and unbelievers.

1 Corinthians is about Christians only.

-- (faith01@myway.com), March 02, 2005.

Faith, what part of "New Thread' do you not undertsand here?

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), March 02, 2005.

Sorry Zarove--but I didn't read your post!

Little snippy, ehh?

-- (faith01@myway.com), March 02, 2005.

Jusr a reminder. This thrad is just a bit to long, we don want to overload it.

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), March 02, 2005.

Please don't post after this post.

Go to part 3

http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=00CrNP part 3 here

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), March 09, 2005.

Or its continuation as part 2.

http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=00Cpf2

Part 2

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), March 09, 2005.