This thread resumes where the older one leaves off, below is th elink, and below that the last three or four psots. http://greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=00Co50 Protestants,give up your aoul sins part 1

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), March 01, 2005

Answers

All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, ARE INDEED ASSURED OF THEIR ETERNAL SALVATION; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven. Catechism of the Catholic Church. ***********

The refiner's fire is an analogy used throughout scripture, Faith. I don't have time to look up all the references, and you probably won't read them anyway. The Corinthians passage is one of MANY references to holy fire.

Either you believe you are undergoing NOW and will undergo ACTUAL INTRINSIC purification or you don't. There are only two choices here. Either Christ is and will purify us completely or He won't. Apparently, you believe that you will present your unpurified self to heaven and that you will remain unpurified for all eternity, which stretches credulity!

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), March 01, 2005.

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We are purified by the blood of Christ--Gail. It is by His work, suffering and atonement that we are made clean. It is not by any suffering or work of our own. That is what the Bible reveals.

-- (faith01@myway.com), March 01, 2005.

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Faith, don't you think I know that? Where have I ever said that our own suffering cleanses us? NO WHERE. I provided a quote from the Catechism, didn't you read it? ****

All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, ARE INDEED ASSURED OF THEIR ETERNAL SALVATION; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven. Catechism of the Catholic Church.

****

Where do you see in the above quote that our "own suffering" cleanses us? Or where have I ever said that?

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), March 01, 2005.

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Faith wrote, "We are to follow Christ, and be obedient to God's will. But this is only possible for us when we put on His righteousness through faith. We will never be found perfect first. We are found perfect because of His perfection. Salvation is the deliverence from sin and its penalty- -and with Christ in us--only then can we even come close to Christlikeness. And even still--we won't be made perfect until the resurrection. Jesus makes us perfect, we don't perfect ourselves." God says in 2 Corinthians 7:1, "Therefore, having these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God." We most certainly are "perfecting" ourselves...

Faith wrote, "Well Kevin, you'll have to take that up God."

I didn't ask God, I asked you...

Faith wrote, "In my opinion, the verse is refering to what we as Christians do to build-up the Body of Christ. There are many Christians who do much to further the cause of Christ--and there are Christians who do little. Each of us will be *rewarded* according to what our works were worth--but this has nothing to do with salvation. Christians are already saved and do not face condemnation. The verse makes it clear that this has nothing to do with the question of whether a Christian is saved or not based on anything he does..."

You didn't answer the question so I will ask you again, what works of ours will be burned according to these verses???

Faith wrote, "Even the most uneffective Christian will be saved and it is because we escape judgement based on what Jesus did., not what we do. We are saved by our faith."

Tell that to the unprofitable servant of whom it is written in Matthew 25:24-30, "24 Then he who had received the one talent came and said, 'Lord, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you have not sown, and gathering where you have not scattered seed. 25 And I was afraid, and went and hid your talent in the ground. Look, there you have what is yours.' 26 But his lord answered and said to him, 'You wicked and lazy servant, you knew that I reap where I have not sown, and gather where I have not scattered seed. 27 So you ought to have deposited my money with the bankers, and at my coming I would have received back my own with interest. 28 Therefore take the talent from him, and give it to him who has ten talents. 29 For to everyone who has, more will be given, and he will have abundance; but from him who does not have, even what he has will be taken away. 30 And cast the unprofitable servant into the outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.'"

His trusting in what Jesus did alone and did nothing of himself caused him to be cast out...

-- Kevin Walker ("navyscporetired@comcast.net"), March 01, 2005.

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), March 01, 2005.

"The observance of Sunday by Protestants is a homage they pay to the authority of the Catholic Church." -Plain Talk About the Protestantism of Today by Monsignor Louis Segur..

For anyone who values Sabbaths..

Look up Saturday and Sunday in any dictionary anywhere.. It'll show saturdays as the 7th day of the week and Sunday the first.. (as shown on calendars)

Who authorized to switch sabbaths on Sundays instead of Saturdays..?

Of course.. none other than the pope!

So.. who do we trust? The pope or The One and Only Maker..?

Ps. 118:8 It is better to trust in the Lord than to put confidence in man. 118:9 It is better to trust in the Lord than to put confidence in princes.

Why almost repeat it twice? I think, to emphasize the importance of not letting anyone tell you otherwise.

Yah'shua (Jesus) and his 12 disciples honored Sabbaths. Yah'shua didnt need to teach the importance of Sabbaths cuz at the time, people were doing it the way they should be.. except for selling doves and such.. of course.

oh, and honoring Sabbaths start from sunset to sunset.. why? some of you may ask... Gen 1:8 And God called the firmament Heaven. So the EVENING and the MORNING were the second day.

-_-

-- a temple.. (Jahsmine@netzero.com), March 02, 2005.

Gail,

I am talking about the doctrine of purgatory--which is supposedly a sort of pre-heaven, where believers who are still in sin [Impossible-- because Christ paid for their sin with His suffering] are to suffer and pay for any supposed remaining sin.

Isn't that what purgatory is Gail? Or have you redefined it?

-- (faith01@myway.com), March 02, 2005.

To a temple..,

Christians honor the day Sunday as the Lord's Day because He rose from the dead on Sunday.

-- (faith01@myway.com), March 02, 2005.

and...,

Don't forget that Jesus fulfilled the Old Testament Scriptures and we are not under its Law anymore....so we aren't required to celebrate the Sabbath as you do, you are the one still bound by the Law...

-- (faith01@myway.com), March 02, 2005.

Sorry Kevin, But this parable is in reference to the difference in attitudes of those of us who are waiting for Christ's return--and those who obviously are not. The difference is between true believers and unbelievers.

1 Corinthians is about Christians only.

-- (faith01@myway.com), March 02, 2005.

and whose idea was it to honor the day Jesus rose instead of the day our God blessed and hallowed?

Matthew 10:24 - A disciple is not above his teacher, nor a servant above his master. It is enough for a disciple that he be like his teacher, and a servant like his master. Matthew 7:21 Not everyone who says to Me "Lord, Lord" shall enter the kingdom of Heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, "Lord, Lord.. have we not prophesied in Your Name, cast out demons in Your Name, and done many wonders in Your Name..?" And then I will declare to them, "I never knew you, depart from Me, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS."

Mark 12:28 "....which is the first commandment of all..?" Jesus answered him, "The first of all is 'Hear 'O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one. And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength. This is the first commandment. And the second, You shall love your neighbor as yourself. There is no other commandments greater than these.

what i think He meant was.. what is righteousness without love? The Pharisees at the time were getting ahead of themselves and forgot the important thing.. love.

Personally, i see the importance of the ten commandments and i recently chose to keep them. I'm not bound by the laws, im not jewish.. I feel its the right thing to do.

-- temple (Jahsmine@netzero.com), March 02, 2005.

Not at all, we shall continue all the more effectively by changing our approach. Instead of fighting it by way of laws suppressing the privileges enjoyed by the Roman Catholic Church under the Concordat, we must carry on the fight through propaganda (…). What is beyond doubt is that many people, belonging to the apathetic masses, still consider certain religious ceremonies: marriage, baptism, first communion, and funerals as an obligatory social rite. Look around you, note how many purely civil marriages there are, how many unbaptised, how many non-religious funerals; ask the schoolteachers what proportion of communicants to non-communicants is among their pupils, and you will detect the power not of religion itself, but of the social rite of ceremonies and ecclesiastical consecrations. And a return of faith can arise through fulfillment of these rites. We must fight against that and we cannot do that by force of law. We can only do it by word of mouth and through propaganda. But this propaganda does not have the aim of substituting one faith for another, as religious propaganda would have it; not even atheism versus deism, or materialism overcoming spiritualism. These are merely assertions trying to impose a faith, that is to say, forms of religion. What we have to propose is the conviction that everyone should make his own opinions, through his own thinking or through education which he has received and thought sound. And if each has the freedom to form his own opinion, he must respect others having the same freedom, not becoming angry if his fellow man thinks other than he does, and he will manifest this by saying to himself that, because error is a common weakness in the human race, it is indeed possible that it was he who has erred. This is the teaching of pure Masonic doctrine, not one to be locked in temples with its symbols, but on the contrary one to be broadcast abroad. It is to this end, to this new form of fighting against the Church, that we will drive the ritualist, symbolist, and, why not say it? Religious reaction ( religious being understood in the social sense as in French Masonry). It will be the next demonstration of the law of oscillation.

From the article, ‘L’evolution de la maconnerie’, (The evolution of Masonry) In the March, 1908 issue of the Masonic review L’Acacia, prepared for a ‘Spiritualist congress’ of French Freemasonry.””

Apropos 2004

I found this, I thought someone might be interested.

-- Ming (dot4@hotmail.co.uk), March 03, 2005.

Faith wrote, "Sorry Kevin, But this parable is in reference to the difference in attitudes of those of us who are waiting for Christ's return--and those who obviously are not. The difference is between true believers and unbelievers. 1 Corinthians is about Christians only."

Yes, and those "Christians" whose "works" are burned (1 Cor. 3:15) are other Christians who were taught by faith Christians who have since departed from the truth for it is written in John 15:6, "If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned."

-- Kevin Walker ("navyscporetired@comcast.net"), March 04, 2005.

You are wrong Kevin--the Christians in 1 Corinthians are not thrown into any fire or burned. That is for the unbelievers....

The Christians in 1 Corinthians are saved in spite of the fact that their works did not stand the test!

This is because believers are not judged based on what they do--they are not going to face condemnation no matter what they did or didn't do because they are saved by faith in what Jesus did--His work.

-- (faith01@myway.com), March 04, 2005.

Faith wrote, "You are wrong Kevin--the Christians in 1 Corinthians are not thrown into any fire or burned. That is for the unbelievers...."

First you say, "1 Corinthians is about Christians only"

Then she says, "the Christians in 1 Corinthians are not thrown into any fire or burned. That is for the unbelievers"

You are the one who is mistaken Faith you can't have it both ways saying that 1 Corinthians is only for Christians and then only "unbelievers" will be thrown into any fire... I will ask you again, what "works" are there that are burned up???

Faith wrote, "Sorry Kevin, But this parable is in reference to the difference in attitudes of those of us who are waiting for Christ's return--and those who obviously are not. The difference is between true believers and unbelievers. ."

What are the "works" being spoken of???

-- Kevin Walker ("navyscporetired@comcast.net"), March 05, 2005.

Kevin--

You are confused.

1 Corinthians is about the testing of the works of Christians. No Christian is put through any fire or thrown into a fire in those verses. Their works are tested and they are rewarded accordingly. Those whose works failed the test--are still saved. There is no throwing of anyone into the fire.

I said that that type of punishment is reserved for unbelievers like the ones you brought our attention to in Matt. 25.

We are talking about two different groups of people and two entirely different Scriptures.

The works spoken of in 1 Corinthians are likely whatever works we as Christians do in the name of Jesus.

Read the Scripture for yourself to determine what *works* are spoken of. All I know is that these Christians are saved whether their works proved good or not.

1 Cor 3:10-15

By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as an expert builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one should be careful how he builds. For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's work. If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames.

-- (faith01@myway.com), March 05, 2005.

"but only as one escaping THROUGH the flames."

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), March 05, 2005.

No Faith,

You are mistaken...

1 Corinthians is about testing the work of Christians and it is also burning their works, which is their teaching (regardless of whether you choose to comment)... Those that they have taught, i.e. fellow Christians, if they do not endure, they are burned up...

Please explain how one's own works can be burned up??? I am still waiting for you to explain how this is possible...

You did partially answer the question when you said, "The works spoken of in 1 Corinthians are likely whatever works we as Christians do in the name of Jesus." My question is how can these works be burned up???

Of course in typical fashion, you countered with, "Read the Scripture for yourself to determine what *works* are spoken of. All I know is that these Christians are saved whether their works proved good or not."

If one has "works" that can be burned up, shouldn't we "know" what they are??? If not, why not???

The truth of the matter is those Christians who have not been faithful will be burned in the lake of fire along with the unbelievers...

-- Kevin Walker ("navyscporetired@comcast.net"), March 05, 2005.

And the ones who believe in vain. Gosh, theres alot of those around, eh? -_-

-- temple (jahsmine@netzero.com), March 05, 2005.

Kevin.,

The analogy of burning-up--is simply the authors way of expressing a testing. Our works will be tested to see if they were good. By *works* must be meant our effectiveness as preachers, teachers, evangelists, missionaries, etc. Perhaps the test is in the fruit. How many souls did we lead to Christ with what we did and said. How many did we confuse or lose?

The quality of my work in this life is always being put to the test by others who judge me based on the outcome. Perhaps this is what Paul was speaking to. He certainl;y wasn't teaching about purgatory as Gail insists. The fire is not the same as the fire of hell. Christians don't face that judgement.

The Scriptures tell us that there is no longer any condemnation for those found in Christ--and 1 Corinthians 3 supports that!

-- (faith01@myway.com), March 05, 2005.

Faith,

You wrote, "The analogy of burning-up--is simply the authors way of expressing a testing."

Please explain how the "authors" used an analogy in any of these verses???

You wrote, "Our works will be tested to see if they were good. By *works* must be meant our effectiveness as preachers, teachers, evangelists, missionaries, etc. Perhaps the test is in the fruit."

Please explain how these "works" can be burned up???

You wrote, "How many souls did we lead to Christ with what we did and said. How many did we confuse or lose?"

How can these works be burned up???

You wrote, "The quality of my work in this life is always being put to the test by others who judge me based on the outcome. Perhaps this is what Paul was speaking to."

How can this type of work be "burned up"???

You wrote, "He certainl;y wasn't teaching about purgatory as Gail insists."

No, there is no such thing as Purgatory...

You wrote, "The fire is not the same as the fire of hell."

Where is your proof of that assertion?

You wrote, "Christians don't face that judgement."

This statement is not true... We will all be judged together, believers and unbelievers... There is only one judgment, not many as you have been falsely led to believe...

You wrote, "The Scriptures tell us that there is no longer any condemnation for those found in Christ--and 1 Corinthians 3 supports that!"

That is for those who are "in Christ"... Those Christians who have "left" Christ will be condemned along with the unbelievers...

It is possible for a Christian to be lost...

-- Kevin Walker ("navyscporetired@comcast.net"), March 05, 2005.

And it is possible for Christians to be cruel to other believers. -_-

-- temple (jahsmine@netzero.com), March 06, 2005.

"We will all be judged together, believers and unbelievers... There is only one judgment, not many as you have been falsely led to believe... " - Kevin

Would you care to provide a verse/passage/chapter that led you to believe this?

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), March 07, 2005.

Kevin, what is your problem here?

Why must you insist on a literal burning up of the works?

Clearly the verses in 1 Corinthians 3:10-15 are all meant as alegorical:

By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as an expert builder, (since when was Paul an expert builder?) and someone else is building on it. (How does one build on a foundation of faith?) But each one should be careful how he builds. For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. (How can Jesus be a foundation?) If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. (How does one build on a foundation of faith with gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw?) It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's work. If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. (how does something being built, survive?) If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames....

As you can see, I can ask as many ridiculous questions as you, Kevin-- if I were to insist that this has to be meant literally. But obviously if the gold, silver, wood hay and straw are symbolic of our works--then their burning-up must be symbolic of their failing.

-- (faith01@myway.com), March 07, 2005.

Kevin's post refutes or destroys the OSAS doctrines. More and more Kevin makes much sense to me. Now, if Kevin's church would accept Transubstantiation, I'd be singing without my guitar in his church choir, quite well damned (still), but at least in a temporary condition before the big fry.

No, I'm not dissing you nor your church, Kevin. It's a left-handed compliment, but a compliment nonetheless.

............

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), March 07, 2005.

The fact that you so eagerly accept his theology means nothing to me rod. It only confirms that I am in the right place.

Every Catholic, CoC member, and unbeliever like Elpidio that you could find--could sit in a big pow-wow of agreement all you want! I would not be surprised at all--and I certainly would not feel left out, or the need to join you.

-- (faith01@myway.com), March 07, 2005.

Faith, what exaclty afre you disagreeign with? and how do you knwo tyoyr interrpetation is correct?

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), March 07, 2005.

Zarove,

I disagree with just about everything that Kevin posts. He misses the fact that Christians do not face the White throne judgement seat of God because we are found perfect *in* Christ and will not face condemnation.. That judgement seat is for unbelievers, for those whose names are not found in the book of life.

Then there is the judgement that Christians do face--which is unto rewards. It is not about our salvation--we are rewarded for the things we did as Christians (1 Corinthians 3:10-15).

-- (faith01@myway.com), March 07, 2005.

Faith. The day that you agree with me, I'll make sure that I'm not dreaming. It would be great for all of God's children to agree. The problem I see is that you are not God. Therefore, you cannot say that you are "perfect" or that you will not be judged on the final day. Unless, you keep interpreting the way you do, you will always be "saved"; who cares what God has judged. Faith, it is up to God to make the final judgement, not you, your pastor, your Bible study group, or your gut feelings.

..........

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), March 07, 2005.

rod,

You are clueless as to what I believe. Let it be. You are also clueless as to what the Scriptures reveal.

Christians are no longer condemned according to God.

Romans 8:1-4

Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in sinful man, in order that the righteous requirements of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit.

Romans 8:9-11

You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ.

But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness. And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit, who lives in you.

-- (faith01@myway.com), March 07, 2005.

I wrote, "We will all be judged together, believers and unbelievers... There is only one judgment, not many as you have been falsely led to believe... "

To which David replied, "Would you care to provide a verse/passage/chapter that led you to believe this?"

Certainly... There are several and here are a couple:

2 Corinthians 5:10, "For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad."

Matthew 25:31-33, "31 When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. 33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left."

Hope this helps...

-- Kevin Walker ("navyscporetired@comcast.net"), March 07, 2005.

Romans 8:1-4

Romans 8:9-11

I agree 100% with those verses. I particularly like that word "if". So, I don't know if it is your arrogance or your ignorance that drives your interpretations, Faith. Or, is it just another one of my "clueless" observations?

It would be best to live in a Christ-like fashion and leave your judgement up to God, not up to your own interpretations. You clueless girl, you.

............. .........

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), March 07, 2005.

Faith wrote, "Kevin, what is your problem here? Why must you insist on a literal burning up of the works?"

Because there is nothing in this passage that shows that one must take that as not being literal...

Faith wrote, "Clearly the verses in 1 Corinthians 3:10-15 are all meant as alegorical: By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as an expert builder, (since when was Paul an expert builder?)

See Matthew 7:24-26 to understand what Paul meant...

Faith wrote, "and someone else is building on it. (How does one build on a foundation of faith?)"

See 2 Peter 1:5-11...

Faith wrote, "But each one should be careful how he builds. For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. (How can Jesus be a foundation?)"

See Acts 4:11 and Ephesians 2:19-22...

Faith wrote, "If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. (How does one build on a foundation of faith with gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw?)"

See Matthew 13:38-43...

Faith wrote, "It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's work. If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. (how does something being built, survive?)"

See 1 Peter 1:6-9...

Faith wrote, "As you can see, I can ask as many ridiculous questions as you, Kevin--"

The Bible is sufficient to disprove your beliefs and I have provided the answers for you above... The questions were not ridiculuous, you have just been misinformed...

Faith wrote, "if I were to insist that this has to be meant literally. But obviously if the gold, silver, wood hay and straw are symbolic of our works--then their burning-up must be symbolic of their failing."

They are only "symbolic" to you because you don't have an answer if these passages are to be taken literally isn't that right Faith??? I asked you numerous times to answer how one's works can be burned up, and you beat around the bush and finally told me that it was for Christians only, and now you retreat to the position that these are only symbolic... This does not surprise me in the least Faith... I have shown you through Scripture that what you believe concerning this passage is not correct... Your choice is who are you going to belive, man who gave you incorrect information or God who does not lie??? The choice is yours to make...

-- Kevin Walker ("navyscporetired@comcast.net"), March 07, 2005.

It's all according to what the meaning of the word "if" is. Ha! Clintonion hermeneutics!

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), March 07, 2005.

Kevin,

Don't you know that the judgement seat of Christ is not the White throne judgement of God?

The judgement seat of Christ is a perfect fit to 1 Corinthians 3:10-15

But during the return of Jesus on earth, the true believers will already have been raptured out. So the separation you see in Matt 25, is likely God taking the unbelievers and leaving the believers--or tribulation saints to dwell in His 1,000 year reign of Christ.

That verse is likened to the days of Noah--when the ungodly were destroyed and the believers were left to repopulate the earth.

-- (faith01@myway.com), March 07, 2005.

Faith wrote, "I disagree with just about everything that Kevin posts."

And you ignore plain passages that I have provided that refute your beliefs and yet you continue to hold fast to your beliefs that are contrary to God's word...

Faith wrote, "He misses the fact that Christians do not face the White throne judgement seat of God because we are found perfect *in* Christ and will not face condemnation.."

Just because there is no condemnation for those who are "in Christ" does not mean that we will not face judgment... The key is for those who are "in Christ"... All will stand before the judgment seat of Christ for this is exactly what 2 Corinthians 5:10 states, "For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad."

That one little word "all" trips you up every time...

Faith wrote, "That judgement seat is for unbelievers, for those whose names are not found in the book of life."

Another assertion from Faith that has no basis in the truth of God's word... Nowhere does it state that "the judgment seat is for unbelievers, for those whose names are not found in the book of life"...

-- Kevin Walker ("navyscporetired@comcast.net"), March 07, 2005.

Kevin,

You are really crazy here.

If our works are being represented in these passages as gold, silver, stones, wood and hay...

....surely you see the true meaning, right?

As Christians, we build on the foundation of Jesus Christ with our works. But these works of building are not truly gold, silver, wood, hay--etc.

Our works for the church can be many different things. How faithful were we as teachers of the word? What kinds of missions did we run? Did we feed the hungry, clothe the poor?

Do you see?

The gold, silver, wood and hay are symbolic of the things we did to build the church.

If our works failed, then they failed the test of quality--meaning they we no good. Maybe they didn't serve to save a lost soul or sufficiently feed the poor and hungry.

When Paul says that if these works are burned up--the gold, silver and wood...he is not actually saying burned-up in the literal sense. He just means that if the works didn't pass the test--we are still saved.

-- (faith01@myway.com), March 07, 2005.

Faith,

You wrote, "Kevin, Don't you know that the judgement seat of Christ is not the White throne judgement of God?"

God the Father will not judge anyone for it is written in John 5:22, "For the Father judges no one, but has committed all judgment to the Son"

You have been misled...

You wrote, "The judgement seat of Christ is a perfect fit to 1 Corinthians 3:10-15"

First you say these passages are not literal, now you say "The judgment seat of Christ is a perfect fit"??? Come on Faith... How about staying on track here... If these passages aren't literal as you state, then how can it be Christ's judgment???

Of course these passages fit perfectly with Christ's judgment because He will be the only judge and preside over only one judgment...

Faith wrote, "But during the return of Jesus on earth, the true believers will already have been raptured out."

No one will leave this earth and there is no such thing as a "rapture"... This is something else that you have been led into error...

You wrote, "So the separation you see in Matt 25, is likely God taking the unbelievers and leaving the believers--or tribulation saints to dwell in His 1,000 year reign of Christ."

The separation in Matthew 25 is on only day of judgment... There is no such thing as a "1,000 year reigh of Christ" on this earth...

You wrote, "That verse is likened to the days of Noah--when the ungodly were destroyed and the believers were left to repopulate the earth."

Only because Jesus will return as a thief in the night for it is written in 2 Peter 3:10, "But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up."

-- Kevin Walker ("navyscporetired@comcast.net"), March 07, 2005.

Rod,

No offense taken... :-)

-- Kevin Walker ("navyscporetired@comcast.net"), March 07, 2005.

Faith,

You wrote, "Kevin, You are really crazy here."

Not at all Faith...

You wrote, "If our works are being represented in these passages as gold, silver, stones, wood and hay..."

The works are "not" being represented as these things...

You wrote, "....surely you see the true meaning, right?"

Did you bother to read the passages that I quoted???

You wrote, "As Christians, we build on the foundation of Jesus Christ with our works. But these works of building are not truly gold, silver, wood, hay--etc."

I never said that they were...

You wrote, "Our works for the church can be many different things. How faithful were we as teachers of the word? What kinds of missions did we run? Did we feed the hungry, clothe the poor?"

I showed you from Scripture what some of the works were, did you bother to read them???

You wrote, "Do you see?"

I see plainly... Do you???

You wrote, "The gold, silver, wood and hay are symbolic of the things we did to build the church."

Now you are back to "symbolic" again... These verses are not symbolic and there is nothing in them to suggest that we should not take them literally...

You wrote, "If our works failed, then they failed the test of quality--meaning they we no good. Maybe they didn't serve to save a lost soul or sufficiently feed the poor and hungry."

Please explain how these "works" can be burned up???

You wrote, "When Paul says that if these works are burned up--the gold, silver and wood...he is not actually saying burned-up in the literal sense. He just means that if the works didn't pass the test-- we are still saved."

Oh, so now Paul didn't really say that the works would be burned up right...

Go back and re-read the Scriptures that I gave you...

You really don't know what you are talking about...

-- Kevin Walker ("navyscporetired@comcast.net"), March 07, 2005.

""""""""You are clueless as to what I believe. Let it be. You are also clueless as to what the Scriptures reveal.

Christians are no longer condemned according to God. """"""""""

8:1.There is now therefore no condemnation to them that are in Christ Jesus, WHO WALK NOT ACCORDING TO THE FLESH [missing from yours].

8:2. For the law of the spirit of life, in Christ Jesus, hath delivered me from the law of sin and of death.

8:3.For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God, sending his own Son in the likeness of sinfull flesh and of sin, hath condemned sin in the flesh;

8:4.That the justification of the law might be fulfilled in us who walk not according to the flesh, but according to the spirit.

8:16. For the Spirit himself giveth testimony to our spirit that we are the sons of God.

[By the inward motions of divine love and the peace of conscience, which the children of God experience, they have a kind of testimony of God's favour; by which they are much strengthened in their hope of their justification and salvation: but yet not so as to pretend to an absolute assurance, which is not usually granted in this mortal life: during which we are taught to work out our salvation with great fear and trembling (Phil 2: 12). And that he that thinketh himself to stand must take heed lest he fall (1 Cor 10 : 12).

Douay version

-- Ming (dot4@hotmail.co.uk), March 07, 2005.

Kevin,

The fact that you have to rely on word-play and trickery--proves to me that your theology is unstable, otherwise you could deal with me in a plain and simple manner.

You ask:

First you say these passages are not literal, now you say "The judgment seat of Christ is a perfect fit"??? Come on Faith... How about staying on track here... If these passages aren't literal as you state, then how can it be Christ's judgment???

I am not the one who needs to stay on track. I said that 1 Corinthians 3:10-15 are not about a literal fire or literal gold, silver and hay--but that those elements are symbolic of our works, which are what is being judged by Christ. If He approves of the work-- that means they passed the test of quality (they made it through the fire) and we receive our reward.

No word games necessary here Kevin. You are the one who is off-track!

-- (faith01@myway.com), March 07, 2005.

Faith,

You wrote, "Kevin, The fact that you have to rely on word-play and trickery--proves to me that your theology is unstable, otherwise you could deal with me in a plain and simple manner."

What "word-play" trickery am I involved in Faith??? Please explain your assertion...

You wrote, "I am not the one who needs to stay on track. I said that 1 Corinthians 3:10-15 are not about a literal fire or literal gold, silver and hay--but that those elements are symbolic of our works, which are what is being judged by Christ. If He approves of the work- - that means they passed the test of quality (they made it through the fire) and we receive our reward."

I will tell you that you have been misled and your belief is in error... You have not proven that any of these passages require a "symbolic" interpretation and since this is the case that view is to be rejected... How can one's works be "symbolically" burned???

You wrote, "No word games necessary here Kevin. You are the one who is off-track!"

Of course that is your opinion... It is however not the truth...

How about answering my posts for once???

-- Kevin Walker ("navyscporetired@comcast.net"), March 07, 2005.

Kevin,

Unless Paul meant that he was literally a builder and that we were literally building on to his structure with literal gold, silver and hay-etc..and that jesus was going to ome and set a match to this structure to see if it survives the fire--then he had to be using an analogy to explain a deeper truth.

If you want to finally offer your interpretation Kevin, I'll read it it. Please keep it short and sweet--no need for any attempts to confuse the issue. Just tell me what you think the verse means, in your own words., and explain why you insist that it isn't an analogy.

-- (faith01@myway.com), March 07, 2005.

Faith,

You wrote, "Kevin, Unless Paul meant that he was literally a builder and that we were literally building on to his structure with literal gold, silver and hay-etc..and that jesus was going to ome and set a match to this structure to see if it survives the fire--then he had to be using an analogy to explain a deeper truth."

Paul never said that we were to build on any structure with literal "gold, silver and hay-etc." He used that one word that always seems to trip you up "if" anyone...

You wrote, "If you want to finally offer your interpretation Kevin, I'll read it it. Please keep it short and sweet--no need for any attempts to confuse the issue. Just tell me what you think the verse means, in your own words., and explain why you insist that it isn't an analogy."

I have given you my interpretation numerous times on the previous thread and again on this thread concerning these verses...

Do you have a problem reading what I have posted???

-- Kevin Walker ("navyscporetired@comcast.net"), March 07, 2005.

Yes, Kevin, obviously I do have a problem understanding your posts then. Because I do not know what you think this verse means. (1 Cor. 3:10-15)

And I also said that I don't appreciate word games. The word *if* does not trip me up. Obviously you have an entirely convaluted understanding of the word *if?*

To me *if* simply means that if we are going to build on to the foundation of Christ--we'd better use the right materials..

I can't imagine what you think *if* means...if it doesn't really mean if.

-- (faith01@myway.com), March 07, 2005.

Faith,

You wrote, "Yes, Kevin, obviously I do have a problem understanding your posts then. Because I do not know what you think this verse means. (1 Cor. 3:10-15)"

Then I would like to suggest that you go back and re-read what I wrote...

You wrote, "And I also said that I don't appreciate word games. The word *if* does not trip me up. Obviously you have an entirely convaluted understanding of the word *if?*"

There you go again making assertions without any proof... If you are going to accuse me of something, please provide sufficient evidence to back up your claim... Please explain "what" "word games" I am playing when I said that you have a problem with the word "if"??? Please also explain "how" I have a "convuluted understanding of the word if"???

You wrote, "To me *if* simply means that if we are going to build on to the foundation of Christ--we'd better use the right materials.."

What are the "right materials" Faith???

You wrote, "I can't imagine what you think *if* means...if it doesn't really mean if."

I never said that "if" doesn't really mean "if" now did I Faith???

Your problem is you take a "conditional" statement (with the word "if") and make it sound like it is symbolic thereby taking all of the surrounding verses out of context...

You wrote on an earlier reply, "Kevin, Don't you know that the judgement seat of Christ is not the White throne judgement of God?"

To which I replied, "God the Father will not judge anyone for it is written in John 5:22, "For the Father judges no one, but has committed all judgment to the Son"...

Please explain how God the Father is going to judge the unbelievers if He has committed "all" judment to the Son???

-- Kevin Walker ("navyscporetired@comcast.net"), March 07, 2005.

Because Kevin, Jesus--at that point is not just the Son any longer.

Romans 14:9-11

For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living. You, then, why do you judge your brother? Or why do you look down on your brother? For we will all stand before God's judgment seat. It is written: “ ‘As surely as I live,’ says the Lord, ‘every knee will bow before me; every tongue will confess to God.’ ” So then, each of us will give an account of himself to God.

Isaiah 45:22-25

"Turn to me and be saved, all you ends of the earth; for I am God, and there is no other.

By myself I have sworn, my mouth has uttered in all integrity a word that will not be revoked:

Before me every knee will bow; by me every tongue will swear.

They will say of me, 'In the LORD alone are righteousness and strength.' "

All who have raged against him will come to him and be put to shame.

But in the LORD all the descendants of Israel (believers) will be found righteous and will exult.

**********************************************

The judgement seat of Christ is not a judgement unto salvation because all those found in Christ are saved...and we are in Christ from the moment we believe and receive Him. It is a present tense thing. There is no condemnation for us--but our works are judged for reward...we are still saved though--even if our works failed the test- -see 1 Cor 3:10-15. These things may all take place the same day--but in any event--there is no judgement unto salvation for true believers- -they are already judged *saved* in Christ.

-- (faith01@myway.com), March 07, 2005.

Faith,

You wrote, "Because Kevin, Jesus--at that point is not just the Son any longer."

When will Jesus cease being the "Son of God"???

God the Father has committed "all" judgment to the Son... Which part of that do you not understand???

Then you quoted Romans 14:9-11 however, please notice where it is written, "‘As surely as I live,’ says the Lord, ‘every knee will bow before me; every tongue will confess to God.’ "So then, each of us will give an account of himself to God."

Each of us includes the believers and the unbelievers... There is no partiality with God...

Your quoting of Isaiah 45:22-25 also does not help you... For it is also written, "Before me every knee will bow; by me every tongue will swear."

What part of "every knee will bow" and "every tongue will swear" do you not understand???

You wrote, "The judgement seat of Christ is not a judgement unto salvation because all those found in Christ are saved..."

You have been misled... There is nothing in the Bible that states this to be true and I challenge you to produce the verse(s) that state "all those found in Christ are saved"...

You wrote, "and we are in Christ from the moment we believe and receive Him."

Another false statement... One is not "in Christ" until they are baptized "into Christ"... (See Galatians 3:26-27).

You wrote, "It is a present tense thing. There is no condemnation for us--but our works are judged for reward...we are still saved though--even if our works failed the test- -see 1 Cor 3:10-15. These things may all take place the same day--but in any event--there is no judgement unto salvation for true believers- -they are already judged *saved* in Christ."

This is nothing but baloney... There is no such thing as being judged "saved in Christ" and again I challenge you to produce the verse(s) that so state...

Salvation is "conditional" and not "present tense" as you assert...

-- Kevin Walker ("navyscporetired@comcast.net"), March 07, 2005.

Oops... I misspoke... What I meant to say in response to what you wrote, "The judgement seat of Christ is not a judgement unto salvation because all those found in Christ are saved..."

Was this...

You have been misled... There is nothing in the Bible that states this "the judgment seat of Christ is not a judgment unto salvation" to be true and I challenge you to produce the verse(s) that state such... Yes, "all those found in Christ are saved" however they don't receive salvation in this lifetime but will receive it on the on the day of judgment...

For it is written in Hebrews 9:28, "so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation."

-- Kevin Walker ("navyscporetired@comcast.net"), March 07, 2005.

Ephesians 2:4-10

But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions–it is by grace you have been saved.

And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. (this is what baptism symbolizes--is future)

For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith– and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God– not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

***********************************

Salvation is not just a future thing--but it is also present--and it is the reason we obey and can do good works pleasing to God. He knew in advance those of us who would believe.

-- (faith01@myway.com), March 07, 2005.

Faith quoted Ephesians 2:4-10, however, being made "alive with Christ" and being saved by grace does not grant us that we have salvation in actuality in this life...

Then Faith wrote, "Salvation is not just a future thing--but it is also present--and it is the reason we obey and can do good works pleasing to God. He knew in advance those of us who would believe."

Salvation is only given on the day of judgment, not received in this lifetime...

We have eternal life in promise only for it is written in 1 John 2:24-25, "24 Therefore let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father. 25 And this is the promise that He has promised us--eternal life."

There is that conditional "if" statement again...

Paul didn't know that he actually had eternal life while here on this earth for he wrote in Titus 1:1-3, "1 Paul, a bondservant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect and the acknowledgment of the truth which accords with godliness, 2 in hope of eternal life which God, who cannot lie, promised before time began, 3 but has in due time manifested His word through preaching, which was committed to me according to the commandment of God our Savior."

We have eternal life "in hope" while on this earth...

Eternal life in actuality will be received in the world to come for Mark 10:30 states, "...and in the age to come, eternal life."

Salvation is conditional...

1 Cor 9:24-27 states, "24 Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may obtain it. 25 And everyone who competes for the prize is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a perishable crown, but we for an imperishable crown. 26 Therefore I run thus: not with uncertainty. Thus I fight: not as one who beats the air. 27 But I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest, when I have preached to others, I myself should become disqualified."

-- Kevin Walker ("navyscporetired@comcast.net"), March 07, 2005.

Faith,

Were Ananias and Sapphira saved??? (See Acts 5:1-11).

-- Kevin Walker ("navyscporetired@comcast.net"), March 07, 2005.

Well Kevin,

Salvation and eternal life are two separate issues.

Eternal life is a blessing that those who are saved receive at the end of their earthly life.

And as far as Ananias and Sapphira go--only true believers are saved and go to heaven.

The question is, do you think that these two were true believers? Don't forget that their sin was more than just sin. I believe their sin was against the Holy Spirit. Can a true Christian really do that? If the Holy Spirit is dwelling in you, can you really be capable of such a sin as this?

-- (faith01@myway.com), March 08, 2005.

Faith

How do YOU know if the Holy Spirit indwells in YOU?

How do you understand your "works" and "faith" to be a product of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit in YOU?

Hey, the Pentecostals believe that the Holy Spirit indwells them.

..........

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), March 08, 2005.

"If the Holy Spirit is dwelling in you, can you really be capable of such a sin as this? "--Faith.

If this is your monitoring system, then you are alluding to differing degrees of sin--venial and mortal. Also, are you implying that--as a mortal--you are capable of being sinless when the Holy Spirit indwells in YOU?

....................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), March 08, 2005.

I think that we need to understand YOUR interpretation of "Holy Spirit", Faith.

.........

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), March 08, 2005.

And as far as Ananias and Sapphira go--only true believers are saved and go to heaven. - Faith

Apparently not so.. Jesus said: "Not everyone who says "Lord, Lord" shall enter the Kingdom of Heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, "Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, done many wonders in Your name?" And then I will declare to them, "I never knew you, you who practice lawlessness."

What does that mean to you, Faith..? "I never knew you, you who practice lawlessness." Lawlessness..

I believe it takes more than "truly believing" to be invited into Heaven.

Even you, who claim to have the Holy Spirit within you, are cruel sometimes to others when trying to show your points. Maybe you werent trying to be, i hope.. but thats how i see it. Maybe thats how others see it too.

Salvation is not just a future thing--but it is also present--and it is the reason we obey and can do good works pleasing to God. He knew in advance those of us who would believe.

How do you obey? What is good works? You said in the other thread good works is to feed the hungry, clothe the poor, save souls.. ...Have you done that lately..?

-- temple (jahsmine@netzero.com), March 08, 2005.

"If the Holy Spirit is dwelling in you, can you really be capable of such a sin as this?"

Ask King David! He was a "man after God's own heart." He committed both adultery and murder, and came near to losing his soul. But he repented, and God forgave him! Good thing too!

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), March 08, 2005.

'I never knew you' - some key words to understanding the passage don't you think?

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), March 08, 2005.

But gail,

The Scriptures clearly reveal that there is a sin that is unforgivable--and that is blaspheming the Holy Spirit.

I think the reason is that when you reject deny or lie to the very thing that can reveal jesus Christ to you, then you cannot know Jesus. And we all know that Jesus is the only way to heaven.

It seems to me that Ananias' and Sapphira's sin was perhaps of the unforgivable kind? And the fact that they could lie to the Holy Spirit, tells me that they never had the Holy Spirit in them to begin with. They were *unbelievers.*

-- (faith01@myway.com), March 08, 2005.

That is the most ridiculous thing you've said today, Faith. What you are saying is similar to having a man receive a speeding ticket , but he was not speeding in the first place. So, why would the man get cited for something he cannot be cited for??????? If a man has faith, he has faith. If a man loses his faith, he loses it because he first had it and then lost it. Duh!!

.........

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), March 08, 2005.

rod,

What?

As usual, we are on totally different pages...

If you think that one can reject the Holy Spirit after He has received Jesus--think again about that.

The Holy Spirit is what convicts our souls of the truth through His Word. If you reject the Spirit's promting because you have rejected the Spirit altogether--then there is no way to come to receive Jesus.

No, what is ridiculous is your race to respond before you actually think things through...

It's all part of that immaturity thing that you yourself recognize is a problem for you.

No one who *truly* has faith, will lose it.

-- (faith01@myway.com), March 08, 2005.

Faith, you are so confused, you can't even remember your real name.

If what you preach is remotely close to the truth, then you would find yourself mumbling about trying to figure out who has the Truth, even when they all claim to have the Holy Spirit indwelling in them, as they already do. How in the world can conflicting doctrines and theologies all have the Holy Spirit indwelling in them or their church? That is ridiculous.

You still haven't nor will you answer my question. How do YOU know that the Holy Spirit indwells in you? I don't believe that you can answer my question satisfactorily to anyone outside your own mental condition. If you live by example, then we can gather that the Holy Spirit is not what we imagined It to be.

................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), March 08, 2005.

Ok.....I've thought things through. I don't think the Holy Spirit indwells in people of arrogance and self-righteous behaviors that belittle and intimidate others of differing views, beliefs, and convictions. Oh, they may preach that they are indwelled with this that and the other, but when the smoke clears, the truth comes out.

How do you know that you are blessed with this indwelling, Faith?

Will you answer me or not?

..............

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), March 08, 2005.

The keywords arent 'I never knew you' but rather

..."Many will say to Me in that day, "Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, done many wonders in Your name?" And then I will declare to them, "I never knew you, you who practice lawlessness."

And i wanted to apologize for being out of line when i commented on Faith's indwelling Holy Spirit.. My tone was pretty harsh. I shouldnt have. I wasnt implying Faith does not have the Holy Spirit, but its my opinion that anyone who has been blessed with the Holy Spirit shouldnt behave arrogant or self-righteous as Rod put it better. Its my opinion that it would hurt the presence of the Holy Spirit..

-- temple (jahsmine@netzero.com), March 08, 2005.

All I want is a straight foward answer from Faith as to your realization that the Holy Spirit is actually indwelled in her. I don't believe that she can answer my question truthfully, but only interpretively.

......

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), March 08, 2005.

Faith wrote, "Well Kevin, Salvation and eternal life are two separate issues."

Actually, one will not inherit salvation until Jesus returns... He will give eternal life as it is written in Romans 2:5-11, "5 But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who "will render to each one according to his deeds": 7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; 8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness--indignation and wrath, 9 tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek; 10 but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 11 For there is no partiality with God."

Faith wrote, "Eternal life is a blessing that those who are saved receive at the end of their earthly life."

Actually eternal life will not be given until Jesus returns for it is written in Romans 6:22, "But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life."

Faith wrote, "And as far as Ananias and Sapphira go--only true believers are saved and go to heaven."

Where is your proof that they were not true believers???

Faith wrote, "The question is, do you think that these two were true believers?"

Yes, they were "true believers" and I challenge you to prove otherwise...

Faith wrote, "Don't forget that their sin was more than just sin."

How was their sin "more than just sin"???

Faith wrote, "I believe their sin was against the Holy Spirit."

Of course it was...

Faith wrote, "Can a true Christian really do that?"

Yes... Have you not read in Acts 7:51, "You stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears! You always resist the Holy Spirit; as your fathers did, so do you."

Faith wrote, "If the Holy Spirit is dwelling in you, can you really be capable of such a sin as this?"

Yes it is possible for it is written in Ephesians 4:30, "And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption."

If it is possible to quench the Spirit (and it is) then it is possible to sin against the Spirit... (See 1 Thessalonians 5:19).

-- Kevin Walker ("navyscporetired@comcast.net"), March 08, 2005.

The thing is temple,

That my confidence is mistaken as arrogance and my assuredness of the righteousness I have in Christ--is mistaken as self-righteousness.

This can only be taken this way when a person does not understand the Scriptures which reveal that we can indeed *know* that we are saved and that when we are saved, we are blessed with the Holy Spirit and the righteousness of Christ. It isn't about us. I know that no matter what, I am a sinner.

But because of Christ, I am confident that what He promised me is the truth.

I do not make any apologies for believing....and I am sorry if my confidence rubs people the wrong way.

But as much as you think my strong faith is abrasive to some--it at the same time, might be what convinces someone else of the truth that is only found in God's Word.

-- (faith01@myway.com), March 08, 2005.

"How in the world can conflicting doctrines and theologies all have the Holy Spirit indwelling in them or their church? That is ridiculous."

Exactly!!!

-- Kevin Walker ("navyscporetired@comcast.net"), March 08, 2005.

Faith wrote, "No one who *truly* has faith, will lose it."

Do you really expect someone to believe this nonsense Faith???

Have you not read in 1 Timothy 1:19-20 which states, "19 having faith and a good conscience, which some having rejected, concerning the faith have suffered shipwreck, 20 of whom are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I delivered to Satan that they may learn not to blaspheme."

It is possible for one to "truly" lose their faith whether you choose to accept it or not...

-- Kevin Walker ("navyscporetired@comcast.net"), March 08, 2005.

Kevin,

You say:

Faith wrote, "Well Kevin, Salvation and eternal life are two separate issues." Kevin: Actually, one will not inherit salvation until Jesus returns...

Salvation is given the moment one believes...we are delivered from the power and penalty of *sin.* It is eternal life that we receive when we die--or--when Christ returns. If we die before Christ returns- -we go to be with Christ in spirit, because we are saved and belong to Him.

Faith wrote, "And as far as Ananias and Sapphira go--only true believers are saved and go to heaven."

Where is your proof that they were not true believers???

I have no proof. Only God really knows. But based on their fruit--or lack of it--I'd say they were not true believers. I, as a true believer would not steel from fellow Christians/the church and/or lie to God. I wouldn't even think I could lie to God since His Spirit is in me and He knows my every thought and deed. Only if I didn't really believe that--would I think I could lie to God.

Faith wrote, "The question is, do you think that these two were true believers?"

Yes, they were "true believers" and I challenge you to prove otherwise...

I challenge you to prove they were true believers. What basis to you think they were *true* believers? Remember, anyone can claim the name of Christ--but many will hear the words, "depart from me, for I never knew you"--from Jesus Himself.

Faith wrote, "Don't forget that their sin was more than just sin."

How was their sin "more than just sin"???

Because they must have blasphemied the Holy Spirit. They rejected the Spirit. This is the one unforgivable sin, according to Scripture.

Faith wrote, "Can a true Christian really do that?"

Yes... Have you not read in Acts 7:51, "You stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears! You always resist the Holy Spirit; as your fathers did, so do you."

Just who do you think that Stephen was addressing in those verses? Wasn't he addressing the Sanhedrin? These are unbelievers.....

Faith wrote, "If the Holy Spirit is dwelling in you, can you really be capable of such a sin as this?"

Yes it is possible for it is written in Ephesians 4:30, "And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption."

Greiving the Holy Spirit is different that lying or blaspheming the Holy Spirit. And this verse declares that these people are *sealed* for redemption. That means they are saved.

If it is possible to quench the Spirit (and it is) then it is possible to sin against the Spirit... (See 1 Thessalonians 5:19).

By warning us not to put out the Spirit's fire--he is telling us not to ignore or toss out the gifts of the Holy Spirit. In this verse he is refering to prophesy in particular. In 1 Corinthians 14:39. he is refering to tongues....

-- Kevin Walker ("navyscporetired@comcast.net"), March 08, 2005.

-- (faith01@myway.com), March 08, 2005.

Faith wrote, "Salvation is given the moment one believes...we are delivered from the power and penalty of *sin.* It is eternal life that we receive when we die--or--when Christ returns. If we die before Christ returns- -we go to be with Christ in spirit, because we are saved and belong to Him."

You have been misinformed Faith... Salvation is "not" given the moment one believes nor do the Scriptures teach such nonsense... When Peter preached his first gospel sermon in Acts chapter 2 did he tell the Jews that their belief had saved them??? Yes or No???

What did Peter tell them they must "do" in order to be saved???

I wrote, "Where is your proof that they were not true believers???"

To which Faith replied, "I have no proof."

Exactly that is the point, you have "no" proof... Don't you think it is wise to be able to prove your beliefs from Scripture???

Faith wrote, "Only God really knows."

One can merely read the Bible to understand that Ananias and Sapphira really did have "true" faith... Why did they even bother to sell their property if they did not have "true" faith???

Faith wrote, "But based on their fruit--or lack of it--I'd say they were not true believers."

Did they sell their property??? Yes or No??? If they did (and I can assure you they did, then they did show some "fruit" and there was no "lack of it" as you assert...

Faith wrote, "I, as a true believer would not steel from fellow Christians/the church and/or lie to God."

It is easy to make a bold statement such as this, but much harder to follow through with it...

Faith wrote, "I wouldn't even think I could lie to God since His Spirit is in me and He knows my every thought and deed."

Is it possible to "lie" to the Holy Spirit??? If it is (and I can assure you it is possible) then what you say above is not true and if one does not speak the truth what is it called??? I could give you a hint, but I think you get the picture...

Faith wrote, "Only if I didn't really believe that--would I think I could lie to God."

You are truly deluded Faith if you "think" you cannot lie to God...

I wrote, "Yes, they were "true believers" and I challenge you to prove otherwise..."

To which Faith replied, "I challenge you to prove they were true believers."

Were they Christians??? Yes or No??? Did they sell their property to give to the Apostles??? Yes or No??? There is nothing in Scripture that states they were "not" true believers and don't you think that they would be stupid to sell their property for something that they didn't even believe in???

Faith wrote, "What basis to you think they were *true* believers?" It is obvious by their actions that they were "true" believers...

Faith wrote, "Remember, anyone can claim the name of Christ--but many will hear the words, "depart from me, for I never knew you"-- from Jesus Himself."

I would suggest to you that you very may well hear those words unless you obey the gospel of Christ before it is too late... If you continue to cling to your "faith alone" salvation, I can assure you that you Jesus will be speaking directly to you on judgment day...

I wrote, "How was their sin "more than just sin"???"

To which Faith replied, "Because they must have blasphemied the Holy Spirit. They rejected the Spirit. This is the one unforgivable sin, according to Scripture."

No they didn't "blaspheme the Holy Spirit"... This is another assertion of yours that is not true... Did those in the Old Testament who "rejected the Spirit" "blaspheme the Holy Spirit"??? If so, then why didn't God kill all of them as He did Ananias and Sapphira if this is the "unforgivable sin"???

I wrote, "Yes... Have you not read in Acts 7:51, "You stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears! You always resist the Holy Spirit; as your fathers did, so do you."

To which Faith replied, "Just who do you think that Stephen was addressing in those verses? Wasn't he addressing the Sanhedrin? These are unbelievers....."

Were they God's "chosen" people before Jesus came??? Yes or No??? Did Stephen state that their "fathers" (those in the Old Testament) also resist the Holy Spirit??? Yes or No???

I wrote, "Yes it is possible for it is written in Ephesians 4:30, "And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption."

To which Faith replied, "Greiving the Holy Spirit is different that lying or blaspheming the Holy Spirit."

Really??? What is the difference Faith??? Please explain it to us...

Faith wrote, "And this verse declares that these people are *sealed* for redemption. That means they are saved."

No again you have been misled... Being "sealed" does not mean that they are "saved" and I challenge you to prove this to be true...

I wrote, "If it is possible to quench the Spirit (and it is) then it is possible to sin against the Spirit... (See 1 Thessalonians 5:19)."

To which Faith replied, "By warning us not to put out the Spirit's fire--he is telling us not to ignore or toss out the gifts of the Holy Spirit. In this verse he is refering to prophesy in particular. In 1 Corinthians 14:39. he is refering to tongues...."

Again you have been misled... Paul did not tell the Thessalonians that one can quench the Spirit by "ignoring" or "tossing" out the gifts of the Holy Spirit... You have merely inserted your meaning into these passages and I can assure you this is not even remotely true... Nor was he even hinting at referring to speaking in tongues...

-- Kevin Walker ("navyscporetired@comcast.net"), March 08, 2005.

Here is a great link concerning blasphemy of the Holy Spirit...

Blasphemy – What Is this Great Sin?

-- Kevin Walker ("navyscporetired@comcast.net"), March 08, 2005.

Rod,

Please forgive me for drowning out your conversation with Faith...

I am not sure whether or not you will receive an answer to your request...

-- Kevin Walker ("navyscporetired@comcast.net"), March 08, 2005.

rod,

The Holy Spirit does not dwell in institutions, but in individuals who are a part of the Body of Christ. The true church is His Body of believers--not some religious enterprise on earth. Only those who are truly in Christ have the Holy Spirit--and their faith is the same in the essential gospel.

-- (faith01@myway.com), March 08, 2005.

Here is another link concerning the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit:

Blasphemy Against the Holy Spirit—The "Unpardonable Sin"

-- Kevin Walker ("navyscporetired@comcast.net"), March 08, 2005.

Thanks for the link, Kevin.. I liked this quote from the link as well..

Let every child of God take care! We must always remember that we are the only “Bible” that many people will read, and if they see in us shallowness, apathy, and hypocrisy, they may attribute those unholy traits to the Word which we profess to believe.

-- temple (jahsmine@netzero.com), March 08, 2005.

Temple,

You are welcome!!!

-- Kevin Walker ("navyscporetired@comcast.net"), March 08, 2005.

Hi Kevin,

there isn't a need for apologies. You are doing quite well with your posts with Faith. I think that the answer will come from the evidence, but not from the voice of the person.

Faith, I don't want to know about the conditions of "institutions". I specifically named for persons and church. "Church" means those believers who huddle together in obedience and worship. That pretty much indicates "works" and "faith". Gosh! I'm not that "clueless".

.......

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), March 08, 2005.

Faith says to Rod: "It's all part of that immaturity thing that you yourself recognize is a problem for you."

These are the kinds of sanctimonious, self-righteous insults that are unwarranted in an adult conversation. Self-control is a virtue of the spirit-filled life!

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), March 08, 2005.

See? There is the evidence I keep stumbling over. It's everywhere. Sanctimonious indeed! One of these days I'm gonna buy me a dictionary and look up that word and sent it to Faith. Gosh darn it!

Thanks, Gail. I'm glad to know that I'm not going loopy over here.

..........

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), March 08, 2005.

Kevin,

You say: You have been misinformed Faith... Salvation is "not" given the moment one believes nor do the Scriptures teach such nonsense... When Peter preached his first gospel sermon in Acts chapter 2 did he tell the Jews that their belief had saved them??? Yes or No???

You can take Acts 2 which ever way you please Kevin. The Scriptures are clear to me that these people were saved by their believing the gospel of Jesus Christ. Then they repented and were baptised. The last verse in Chapter 2 says: ...And the Lord added to their number daily those who were being saved. It doesn't say that these people were among those who might possibly be saved in the end if they were continually obedient.

Ephesians 2:8-9

For it is by grace you have been saved [present tense], through faith–and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God– not by works, so that no one can boast.

1 Peter 2:1-3

Therefore, rid yourselves of all malice and all deceit, hypocrisy, envy, and slander of every kind. Like newborn babies, crave pure spiritual milk, so that by it you may grow up in your salvation, now that you have tasted that the Lord is good.

How can one grow up in his salvation if he hasn't received salvation yet?

In the very next chapter of Acts we see Peter speaking to onlookers about the *faith* of a man who was once unable to walk, but now healed by his faith:

Acts 3:11-16

While the beggar held on to Peter and John, all the people were astonished and came running to them in the place called Solomon's Colonnade. When Peter saw this, he said to them: “Men of Israel, why does this surprise you? Why do you stare at us as if by our own power or godliness we had made this man walk? The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the God of our fathers, has glorified his servant Jesus. You handed him over to be killed, and you disowned him before Pilate, though he had decided to let him go. You disowned the Holy and Righteous One and asked that a murderer be released to you. You killed the author of life, but God raised him from the dead. We are witnesses of this. By faith in the name of Jesus, this man whom you see and know was made strong. It is Jesus' name and the faith that comes through him that has given this complete healing to him, as you can all see.

What did Peter tell them they must "do" in order to be saved???

Peter told those who were *cut to the heart* or convicted and believed, to repent and be baptised for the forgiveness of their sins...that they would receive the Holy Spirit by this. This is what being saved is, Kevin., this is called being born-again by the word of God. This is only possible because they first believed. They were saved by faith....

-- (faith01@myway.com), March 08, 2005.

Gail?

Do you think your example is any better?

How dare you take me to task publicly? You are no different, and you are one-sided.

You failed to first bring to the forefront all of rod's insults and accusatory remarks that are the reason I say what I do to him, which, by-the-way, isn't nearly as bad as you want others to believe....quite suspicious in and of itself.

I am used to it though. You all seem to resort to attacking me personnally when I won't budge from my place--and worse, when you can't argue with me anymore because I simply end up posting nothing but Scripture.

How can you argue with Scripture?

-- (faith01@myway.com), March 08, 2005.

Stop with the tap-dance, Faith. Answer zee question:

How do you know zat zee Holy Spirit indwells inseiden you??

..............

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), March 08, 2005.

Faith

If you wish, just tell me that you don't want to give me an answer. I will drop the subject and not ask you ever again. It is that simple. But, please realize how evasive you are to those questions. "Evasive", ha!

......

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), March 08, 2005.

Tap dance? What are you talking about rod?

I have given my *born-again* testimony many times.

I know because in a moments notice, I was changed--forever, while reading in the Scriptures--I was convicted. The truth pierced my heart and I knew that this Word was the true Word of God. I received Jesus Christ instantly--and from that moment on--I have been walking with Him, and growing in Him every day. The Holy Spirit guides me and reveals truth to me that I never would have believed otherwise.

I am a new person. I feel the Spirit in me when I cry just hearing Jesus' words being read, or when I read them myself. My heart is for the things He cares about.

-- (faith01@myway.com), March 08, 2005.

You sound like Augustine, faith.

Do you mean you opened up the Bible, and there, ...the answer to your prayers...

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), March 08, 2005.

sanctimonious

1 : affecting piousness : hypocritically devout; also : indicative of affected piousness 2 : obsolete : possessing sanctity

There you go, Rod. No need to buy yourself a dictionary. :P

-- temple (jahsmine@netzero.com), March 08, 2005.

Thank you, Temple.

Uh, a bit of caution when reading my posts, Temple. I tend to play the other side of the coin in order to get to the nitty-gritty of things. So, please don't think that I always show all of my cards at one time. Oh, I can't ever keep a straight face when pushed into corners. Everday is one day closer to death. I'm not being negative, that's the truth. :)

Ah! Faith.

Why did it take so long to answer my question? See? That wasn't so tough. That's all you had to say. You aren't gonna like my next question, though. I'll wait on that question.

.........

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), March 08, 2005.

No answers Elpidio, I wasn't asking any questions., though I was always seeking God in some way or another...

I was simply reading along in in the Scriptures in a church with the pastor, along with the entire congregation--when all of a sudden, it hit me that it was God speaking directly to me. I needed to hear those very words at that time and I had no doubt that God was present at that moment. He pierced my heart with the truth about Jesus and I have not been the same old-self since then. My experience--the revelation I experienced has changed me overnight. I believe that Jesus Christ is God, and that He died for me. By His blood, I am saved. At that very moment I fell on my knees, I confessed who He is, that I am a sinner and that I needed Him. I gave myself to Him at that time and was baptised shortly thereafter.

It was very enlightening to actually then read about my conversion in the Scriptures--after-the-fact. That was very edifying and confirming for me.

So far, the most obvious gift I can detect in me is prophecy, though not in the same sense as what you claim to have.

For me, I simply mean that Scripture is very clear to me and I keep experiencing revelation and understanding. Not that God has revealed answers to every single question I have ever had. I still have some. But every so often, I receive answers to things I wonder about. And I am sure--that when the time is right, God will answer every question I ever have.

I trust in Him alone, through His Word. That is why He gave us the Scriptures in the first place.

-- (faith01@myway.com), March 08, 2005.

That's good, faith.

The Christian Yahwist

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), March 08, 2005.

Your experience is a beautiful one, Faith. i think that it is our hope and prayer that others have such an experience with God. I believe that God showed me a path to take in a dream that He sent me or allowed me to have. It dealt with the first steps into the search for Truth in Him.

...............

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), March 08, 2005.

BTW, here is the Faith that we can all feel a beauty that God has shown us. Here is Faith who can shine a light. Here is the wonderful Faith we can enjoy our own faith with. Here is the real Faith.

I'm sorry for being such a pain, Faith. Whether right or wrong, I had to dig deep into the nitty-gritty and find the real you. I think that your honesty is quite evident in your faith in God from your post/testimony.

.............

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), March 08, 2005.

Faith,

You wrote, "You can take Acts 2 which ever way you please Kevin. The Scriptures are clear to me that these people were saved by their believing the gospel of Jesus Christ."

Where does it state that they were saved by their believing in the gospel of Jesus Christ Faith??? Please point out the scripture in Acts chapter 2 which states this to be true...

You wrote, "Then they repented and were baptised."

Actually, Peter told them what they must "do" in order to be saved... He didn't tell them that you are saved by your belief, now go show evidence of your salvation by repenting and being baptized... This is what you want the text to say however, I can assure you it does not even hint at such nonsense...

You wrote, "The last verse in Chapter 2 says: ...And the Lord added to their number daily those who were being saved."

Okay, they were being "saved"... This does not mean that they would stay "saved" until the day that they died... Since we sin, we require a continual cleansing from the blood of Jesus and Salvation will not be realized until He returns...

You wrote, "It doesn't say that these people were among those who might possibly be saved in the end if they were continually obedient."

Go back and re-read Hebrews 5:8-9...

You quoted Ephesians 2:8-9 however, this does not help you for it is by "grace" that we are saved... That grace came through Jesus Christ... (See John 1:17). Go back and re-read 1 John 1:5-6.

You quoted 1 Peter 2:1-3 however, this does not help you either for we are commanded to "grow" in grace and knowledge. (See 2 Peter 3:18). If one is automatically saved at the point of belief, there would be no desire or need to "grow up" into anything...

You wrote, "How can one grow up in his salvation if he hasn't received salvation yet?"

How can one grow into anything if they have already been saved???

You wrote, "In the very next chapter of Acts we see Peter speaking to onlookers about the *faith* of a man who was once unable to walk, but now healed by his faith: then quoted Acts 3:11-16"

That was nice Faith however, this man's faith was not "alone" as you claim it... He had to do "something" in order to be healed... If he would have listened to you, he would still be "unable to walk"...

I wrote, "What did Peter tell them they must "do" in order to be saved???"

To which you replied, "Peter told those who were *cut to the heart* or convicted and believed, to repent and be baptised for the forgiveness of their sins..."

Hold it right there... Peter told them to do "what" for the "forgiveness of their sins"???

You wrote, "that they would receive the Holy Spirit by this. This is what being saved is, Kevin., this is called being born -again by the word of God. This is only possible because they first believed. They were saved by faith.... "

Not according to your doctrine??? You state that one is saved at the point of faith "alone"... If you were giving the sermon that Peter gave, you most certainly would not have told them to "repent and be baptized for the remission of your sins" now would you Faith??? They were saved by their faith that was put into action for it is written that those who "gladly received his word were baptized" (Acts 2:41).

-- Kevin Walker ("navyscporetired@comcast.net"), March 08, 2005.

What I think you miss Kevin, is the fact that being born-again is baptism. We are born again when we believe the gospel and confess with our lips that jesus Christ is Lord, that we are sinners and need Him. He comes into our hearts=rebirth! The water ritual that we perform is our testimony to the deeper truth that has occured by faith in our hearts. We receive the Holy Spirit at this point as well. We are now saved by our faith and delivered from the power of sin and its penalty.., why? Because we believed the gospel and received Christ as our Savior. He paid the debt we owe for sin, and so we are delivered. Saved. Now, with Christ in us--we can endure until He returns--because we do so in His strength. That is how we work out the salvation that we have. In the end, our salvation is realized eternally as well when we are blessed with eternal life. Not because of anything we do--but because of what Jesus did for us.

Now, I am not going to continue with this anymore Kevin. It's like banging my head against a wall. We have both made our beliefs clear-- and obviously, neither of us is going to change our minds.

Good night for now...

-- (faith01@myway.com), March 08, 2005.

I don't know where I left off, but Gail was asking about souls in limbo, i think.

To answer your question Gail, I'm not sure.

I can only find one passage that shows souls in the heavenly realm after death.

Revelation 6:9-11 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. They called out in a loud voice, “How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?” Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and brothers who were to be killed as they had been was completed.

These are souls under the alter, but they have physical form (they are given robes).

-- Luke Juarez (hubertdorm@yahoo.com), March 09, 2005.

Check out this passage

2 Corinthians 5:6-8 Therefore we are always confident and know that as long as we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord. We live by faith, not by sight. We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord.

Others (including myself) have interpreted the body here to mean the church. You may know though, that this is not what Paul is meaning. He is speaking of the physical body. The context is evidence:

2 Corinthians 5:1-4 Now we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands. Meanwhile we groan, longing to be clothed with our heavenly dwelling, because when we are clothed, we will not be found naked. For while we are in this tent, we groan and are burdened, because we do not wish to be unclothed but to be clothed with our heavenly dwelling, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life.

The earthly tent is the mortal body. It will be destroyed and we shall be clothed with a heavenly home. Again, he isn't speaking dwelling places but dwelling forms. Our heavenly dwelling is our immortal/imperishable body.

Here's the important part I want to show:

...as long as we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord.

We... would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord.

In our mortal body, we are away from the Lord. In our immortal body, we are home with the Lord.

We are not at home with the Lord until we are clothed with our immortal bodies.

Again, it goes back to timing. When did Paul say we are clothed with imperishable forms?

1 Corinthians 15:50-53 I declare to you, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed– in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality.

We are clothed with our heavenly dwelling at the last trumpet. Paul is talking about the return of our Lord Jesus Christ. This is when we are home with the Lord.

-- Luke Juarez (hubertdorm@yahoo.com), March 09, 2005.

Wanna back up what I am saying here.

Back up to 2 Corinthians. Look what Paul wrote after talking about our heavenly dwelling...

2 Corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive what is due him for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.

Paul is writing that once we are present with the Lord, clothed in our heavenly dwelling, our works done in our mortal body will be rewarded.

Two times (that I've found) the word of God informs us as to when our works are rewarded.

Revelation 11:15-18 The seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, which said: “The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he will reign for ever and ever.” And the twentyfour elders, who were seated on their thrones before God, fell on their faces and worshiped God, saying: “We give thanks to you, Lord God Almighty, the One who is and who was, because you have taken your great power and have begun to reign. The nations were angry; and your wrath has come. The time has come for judging the dead, and for rewarding your servants the prophets and your saints and those who reverence your name, both small and great– and for destroying those who destroy the earth.”

Here, the second coming of Jesus is recorded at the seventh trumpet. Remember Paul wrote that our bodies are raised imperishable at the last trumpet.

Revelation 22:12 Behold, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to everyone according to what he has done.

Jesus himself states that he brings the reward at his coming.

I hope I'm being clear enough, even if you do not agree. At the second coming of Jesus (the last trumpet):

1) Our earthly tents (bodies) are raised imperishable.

2) We are rewarded for the things we've done.

Now, put this together.

We receive rewards for our works at the second coming of Jesus. But, we only receive rewards from works that survive, what now, fire! This is from 1 Corinthians 3:13-15.

This is your "purgatory." It occurs at the second Coming.

-- Luke Juarez (hubertdorm@yahoo.com), March 09, 2005.

1 Samuel 28:13-15 The king said to her, "Don't be afraid. What do you see?"

The woman said, "I see a spirit coming up out of the ground."

"What does he look like?" he asked.

"An old man wearing a robe is coming up," she said.

Then Saul knew it was Samuel, and he bowed down and prostrated himself with his face to the ground.

Samuel said to Saul, "Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?"

Some say this wasn't really the spirit of Samuel, only a demon pretending. I don't really see a reason to believe that it is not Samuel. His spirit seems to be in some kind of sleep (death) until the witch contacted him.

-- Luke Juarez (hubertdorm@yahoo.com), March 09, 2005.

Oops, I knew I goofted that one. Anyway, Samuel didn't pass through Purgatory into heaven upon his death.

-- Luke Juarez (hubertdorm@yahoo.com), March 09, 2005.

Faith,

"I gave myself to Him at that time and was baptised shortly thereafter. "

Werent you already baptised as a Roman Catholic, and don't you know you can only be baptised (freed from original sin) once into Christs Body.

"We are now saved by our faith and delivered from the power of sin and its penalty.., why? Because we believed the gospel and received Christ as our Savior"

You were freed from original sin (saved) when you were baptised as a Catholic. If you had died the moment after baptism you would have gone straight to heaven.

Babies are (saved) by being baptised in water and the Holy Spirit long before they've even heard of the Gospel.

-- Ming (dot4@hotmail.co.uk), March 09, 2005.

I disagree Ming..

We see zero examples in the Scriptures of babies being baptised.

Baptism is done in faith because the individual has believed. Babies can't make that decision for themselves.

We don't go to heaven because we were baptised, we go to heaven because of our faith in Jesus.

Children belong to Jesus and the kingdom of God is already theirs...

-- (faith01@myway.com), March 09, 2005.

Luke, the O.T. saints were in a place referred to by scripture as Abraham's bosom.

Faith, you said "Children belong to Jesus and the kingdom of God is already theirs," so why would you withhold baptism?

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), March 09, 2005.

I don't withhold anything Gail. Each individual person must choose for themselves. A baby isn't asking and therefore, no withholdong is being done. The Scriptures do not command that we baptise "unknowing" infants. The Scriptures always show the person experiencing revelation, and believing first--then they want to be baptised...

-- (faith01@myway.com), March 09, 2005.

Regarding baptism:

"Each individual person must choose for themselves" Faith said

Baptism is not a choice but a necessity.

"All power in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, until the end of the age." Matt 28:18-20

And presumably when He said 'make disciples of all nations' He didnt mean 'make disciples of all nations' again and again and again at each new generation. It makes more sense for a nation to be converted and then to hand on the truth (baptism) from parent to child, and on and on.

-- Ming (dot4@hotmail.co.uk), March 09, 2005.

How were they to make disciples of all nations, Ming?

By preaching the Word and bringing people to Christ. Babies wouldn't understand, but they grow up and eventually will. Then they get baptised, when the faith is theirs and they have believed.

Mark 16:15-16

He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation. Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

-- (faith01@myway.com), March 09, 2005.

"Baptism is done in faith because the individual has believed. Babies can't make that decision for themselves. " - Faith01

So Covenant children of believing parents should not be baptized?

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), March 09, 2005.

Children who can display an understanding of the faith, who have received Christ through repentance and have acknowledged their sin, could definately be baptised.

I am talking about new babies who don't understand a thing. We can promise to raise them towards Jesus--but the decision must be theirs, the faith must be theirs.

Unless you can show from the Scriptures that infants were baptised.

-- (faith01@myway.com), March 09, 2005.

", but whoever does not believe will be condemned. "

So you believe that whoever does not believe, with or without baptism, is condemned.

If you believe without being baptised are you saved?.

How does this square with the saying that unless you are baptised by water and the Holy Spirit you will not be saved?.

-- Ming (dot4@hotmail.co.uk), March 09, 2005.

"I am talking about new babies who don't understand a thing" - Faith01

So was I.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), March 09, 2005.

Oh! But you said children, so I thought you meant children.

-- (faith01@myway.com), March 09, 2005.

Yes Ming,

Whoever does not believe is condemned by their rejection of Jesus Christ. The fact that their parents baptised them will mean nothing if they grow up in disbelief and reject Jesus Christ.

I believe that someone who is a true believer and for some reason did not get baptised--is still saved, because the baptism that counts is the baptism that Jesus brings--which is of the Holy Spirit, that we receive by faith.

-- (faith01@myway.com), March 09, 2005.

Shoot! Faith. Do you also subscribe to "Sola Chaos"? Your above post is filled with contradictions to your previous "Solas". I think that you have just accepted Infant Baptism with your assertion that "if" the child continues to believe in Christ, his baptism would be considered valid. Hmmm...

Actually, the case is true because, as a Catholic, the infant would grow i n his faith surrounded and supported by his family Catholic conviction to do just that--keep him Catholic. Being Catholic means to accept everything the Christ IS.

.......... ...............

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), March 09, 2005.

Faith

Your Catholicism is showing.

...........

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), March 09, 2005.

If I led you to believe that I think infant baptism counts for anything, if luckily, the child grows up to accept Christ--then I worded myself badly.

As a Catholic who was baptised as an infant--I had an overwhelming desire to get baptised again the moment that I had experience rebirth- -and even this was not in order to be saved, but because I was saved. It was an expression of my joy and faith.

My point is that it is *faith* that saves.

-- (faith01@myway.com), March 09, 2005.

"Faith Alone"? Well, why the act of "Baptism"--a work. So, it isn't "Faith Alone". Are those also badly spoken on your part?

.............

You see here the problem with Evangelical concepts of Christianity. I keep hearing "Faith Alone" saves. I hear about how one must go out and work by spreading the Gospels. I rarely hear about working to help their neighbors: feeding, clothing, sheltering, etc. The emphasis on "Faith Alone" is always on "Spread the Word". Folks, that's just a slice of the pie and leaving the rest of the pie on the table; that is.

...........

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), March 09, 2005.

But your "experience" is not the measuring rod of truth, Faith.

You interject sola fide in almost every post you make no matter what the topic. It colors every aspect of your beliefs to the point of absurdity.

*******

Infant baptism does not guaranty salvation. Nor does adult baptism for that matter. Of course, there must be real and actual devotion to the Lord. He cannot be Savior unless He is Lord! LORDSHIP is a must! And you will not, can not, and have not been "saved" unless He is Lord and continues to be Lord until the day you check-out of here.

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), March 09, 2005.

Faith01,

so you are saying one cannot be baptized unless they have active faith?

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), March 09, 2005.

"Luke, the O.T. saints were in a place referred to by scripture as Abraham's bosom."- Gail.

Exactly. Why then do we say Lazarus and the rich man contains the element of Purgatory? Lazarus would have gone into Abraham's bosom as well.

Now consider the Maccabees. Let's pretend that during the battle against Gorgias, the Jews slain (who were found to be idolators) were actually righteous men. In this scenario, the OT would still be in affect. That is, they weren't going through Purgatory upon death, but would enter into Abraham's bosom.

As it is, the men died as idolators and wouldn't experience Purgatory regardless.

I still see no reason why believers in Christ should not be placed in Abraham's bosom either. It is very likely that Abraham's bosom is the paradise Jesus promised to the repentant at the cross.

-- Luke Juarez (hubertdorm@yahoo.com), March 09, 2005.

Faith

""the baptism that counts is the baptism that Jesus brings--which is of the Holy Spirit, that we receive by faith. ""--Faith

Scripturally: Christ actually taught baptism by water AND the Holy Spirit not one or the other.

""I believe that someone who is a true believer and for some reason did not get baptised--is still saved""

You didnt provide any Scriptural references for this.

"there must be real and actual devotion to the Lord. He cannot be Savior unless He is Lord! LORDSHIP is a must" Gail said this and it is true. Your idea of baptism must be Christs idea of baptism in matter, form and disposition.

-- Ming (dot4@hotmail.co.uk), March 09, 2005.

David,

I see you haven't lost your touch at leading me to where it is you want me to go.

Yes David, baptism is a heart issue--a faith thing. A baby can't choose Christ when he has heard the gospel message and believed-- since he wouldn't understand a single word.

-- (faith01@myway.com), March 09, 2005.

"A baby can't choose Christ.." - FAITH01

So infants cannot be baptized because they cannot believe...how then are they saved? Are there two ways of salvation? They are still sinners...

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), March 09, 2005.

'Are there two ways of salvation? ' - do

We know this is not true...Jesus said it himself. There is one way... you will have me to believe that one way is through faith in Christ, and another is by 'innocence'.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), March 09, 2005.

How can you believe babies are sinners? They're so innocent by nature. They havent had a chance to do anything "evil" yet. Jesus said Children are the kingdom of Heaven.. What would that make babies, then..? sinners..?

Then little children were brought to Him that He might put His hands on them and pray, but the disciples rebuked them. But Jesus said, "Let the little children come to Me, and do not forbid them, for of such is the kingdom of Heaven." Matt 19:13

"Assuredly I say to you, unless you are converted and become as little children, you will by no means enter Kingdom of Heaven. Therefore whoever humbles himself as this little child is the greatest in the Kingdom of Heaven. Whoever recieves one little child like this in My name recieves Me."

Children dont think as adults do. How, then, can babies be sinners and would need to be baptized to be saved..? I havent seen a single verse that supports that ..idea.

-- temple (jahsmine@netzero.com), March 09, 2005.

If you really want to know what I believe--I'll tell you.

I believe that children naturally have an innocent faith. I think Jesus said somewhere that if anyone misguides any of these little ones and causes them to loose their faith, they would be thrown into a body of water with like a rock around their neck or something to that effect....[being lazy right now, just came from a grueling experience at the dentist with three of my kids--I have a headache!]

Jesus has said that the kingdom belongs to children and he has said that if we want to enter the kingdom of heaven--we needed to have faith like a child.

Personally, I don't believe that the water ritual that we perform is what saves us anyway. It is a testimony about our faith--to which babies cannot make.

-- (faith01@myway.com), March 09, 2005.

temple,

Children are born under the same sin curse that we are all born under. That is the *sin* we need forgiveness of. This forgiveness comes by faith in Christ--whose blood atoned for us in our place. The sentence was death., and Jesus paid it.

The only way to be greed from that sentence is to allow Jesus' sacrifice to atone for us in our place--through faith.

Children will grow up and loose that natural desire to know God and to believe. The world will infect the innocent child's mind.

But children still in that state of innocent faith would not be condemned just because they hadn't been baptised. Neither would any true believer, because it is a heart issue..a faith thing.

The Catholic Church thinks that if a baby dies before they are baptised that they will go to hell. That is why they baptise infants right away. But I don't believe that infants would go to hell just because a parent didn't have the baby baptised--that just sounds so like human-reasoning.

-- (faith01@myway.com), March 09, 2005.

"How can you believe babies are sinners?" - temple

Because I don't let my emotions blind me when I read the bible.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), March 09, 2005.

...that should be freed, not greed.

-- (faith01@myway.com), March 09, 2005.

"They're so innocent by nature. They havent had a chance to do anything "evil" yet."

In your eyes, or Gods eyes?

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), March 09, 2005.

temple,

The sin we need forgiveness from has nothing to do with what we do. Not really. It has to do with what Adam and Eve did. They set the stage, and trust me--if you think a baby can't do evil things--then you haven't spent much time with them! Lol!!

-- (faith01@myway.com), March 09, 2005.

Do you mean in a Calvinistic or non-Calvinistic eye, David?

..........

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), March 09, 2005.

"The Catholic Church thinks that if a baby dies before they are baptised that they will go to hell. That is why they baptise infants right away. "

Where is that in the Catechism, Faith? I have looked and looked and I can't find it!

***

Temple, I hope you have been around this forum long enough to know that when it comes to what the Catholic Church teaches, you CANNOT rely on Faith. She misrepresents the Church's teachings on and on and on. It does not matter what we show her in the catechism itself, she just goes on with her misinformation. She clearly has an axe to grind, and will grind it on you if she can.

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), March 09, 2005.

rod,

The Calvinistic eye is not blinded by emotions or traditions.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), March 09, 2005.

Gail,

As a young Catholic woman, I raced out to have my first child baptised because I had been taught that if you die before you are baptised--you can't go to heaven.

This was something that I believed as a Catholic. So why did I believe that? And why do Catholics baptise infants then?

-- (faith01@myway.com), March 09, 2005.

It might help to point out that RC's aren't as united as they claim. Faith01, the RC church you went to might have taught something different than the one Gail went to/attends/visited/etc.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), March 09, 2005.

I dont believe sin is our curse, but death. Death is our curse, the bible said so. Women's curse is to desire over their husbands and to have him rule over her. Men's curse is to work hard to bring forth food, etc.. the serpent's curse is to crawl on its belly and to eat dust for the rest of its life. Where does it say we are cursed with sin once we're born..? I believe sin is an action of disobedience, not a curse.. Life is not evil. Life is beautiful! it is our actions and words that is evil. Jesus said defilement comes from within our hearts! "First comes thought then energy."

David Ortiz.. you say im blind with emotion when reading the bible, yeah youre right.. Im blinded with love and compassion, and mercy. Could you be blinded with the teachings of doctine of men..?

Show me a verse that supports your belief of babies not going to heaven if theyre not baptised..?

-- temple (jahsmine@netzero.com), March 09, 2005.

--if you think a baby can't do evil things--then you haven't spent much time with them! Lol!!

Where do you think they learn those behaviors from..? Tv, society, day-care, parents.. If babies-kids were isolated from those outta-control influences, then maybe they wouldnt be as "evil" as you suggest..

-- temple (jahsmine@netzero.com), March 09, 2005.

"The Calvinistic eye is not blinded by emotions or traditions. "--David.

I agree! emotions or Traditions do not blind Calvinist, but Calvinist are blind to emotions and Traditions. It might be the Calvinism doing the blinding.

..................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), March 09, 2005.

temple,

I was just making a joke. If I thought kids were that bad, I would not have had five babies of my own.

But in truth, children are evil. They lie and bite at the age of 2. No one teaches them this stuff--it's quite normal for them to think that the world revolves around them and that they are number 1!

-- (faith01@myway.com), March 09, 2005.

Deut 24:16 - Fathers should not be put to death for their childrens sins. Nor shall children be put to death for their fathers sins. Each person should be put to death for their own sins.

Ask yourself HONESTLY... Would a Just Merciful God punish the whole mankind, from an innocent birth, for Adam and Eve's sin?

-- temple (jahsmine@netzero.com), March 09, 2005.

Hi Temple.

Welcome to Calvinism 101.

Faith, your kids are evil? Do they spin their heads 360 degrees and breathe putrid gases from their mouths? Is that an inherited trait?

Kids and adults are not evil. Their sins may be evil, but God did not create an "evil" man. We have free will. Hello, Free Will 101.

.....

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), March 09, 2005.

No one teaches them that stuff?

We tell them they're special than other kids, at least most parents i know do.. that encourages "I, Me, My."

Parents feed Birthdays with numerous of gifts every year, Christmas, Easter, halloween, and more holidays with "gifts and fun-times" Most parents dont celebrate the "real" meaning of christmas nor easter. What does santa or the easter bunny have to do with Jesus anyway..? We're teaching them to "want" gifts every year.. it encourages greed. IF they dont get what they asked for, they'll cry and shout till they get it. Is that their fault alone..? Is it because they were doomed from the start..? Everything they learn in life.. is from parents, tv, environment, friends, etc..

-- temple (jahsmine@netzero.com), March 09, 2005.

Free will 101... :P funny.

-- temple (jahsmine@netzero.com), March 09, 2005.

Temple, I don't see physical death as a curse, rather as a rejuvenation.

The wrinkles,....must disappear on e day. By disarding the physical body, we able to replesnish our spiritual body again, provided God allows us to still be alive in the spiritual world.

The Christian Yahwist

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), March 09, 2005.

My kids do not spin their heads, rod--but they were known to do their fair share of projectile vomiting! They leaked all sorts of nasty things and they never let me sleep! They also liked to tangle up my hair and then pull it out! They used to like to throw everything on the floor, just to watch me pick it all up. Evil, I'm telling you...

-- (faith01@myway.com), March 09, 2005.

Faith

Your kids are not evil, plain and simple! (Your kids are not plain and simple, my argument is.) You are stressed because of the child care demands in your life. So what if they terrorize the house? I figure that if they can cause havoc, they can be trained to cleanup after themselves, even as young toddlers and younger.

................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), March 09, 2005.

If they wont let you sleep, maybe they wanna play with you..? If theyre playing with your hair, theyre trying to tell you theyre bored and wanna play! that isnt evil. Kids will test their parents to see when theyre crossing the line.. This is how they know where the line is. The point is.. they shouldnt get away with testing their parents.

My parents divorced before i could even remember them in the same room together. And im an only child. My mom got too depressed to raise me, she slept practically through my whole childhood. -_- and i do remember begging her for some attention, would that make me evil..?

You say they vomit and spew out some nasty stuff.. so do we! is that evil? We have to dispose of our food sometimes.. is that evil..? No, its very very natural. Its too bad that we treat it as something "nasty".. Although i think the scent could have been better. Heheh..

-- temple (jahsmine@netzero.com), March 09, 2005.

Good point Rod. About being trained to pick up stuff after wreaking havoc.

I don't see physical death as a curse, rather as a rejuvenation. The wrinkles,....must disappear on e day. By disarding the physical body, we able to replesnish our spiritual body again, provided God allows us to still be alive in the spiritual world.

The Christian Yahwist

I believe that too. Jesus said God is God of the living, not of the dead. So in a sense, death is not as it seems. Its not the end of our existence, but of life on earth.

-- temple (jahsmine@netzero.com), March 09, 2005.

That is why I reject the pernicious belief that baptism, like in the catholic tradition, erases original sin.

God Yahweh created us Good, so no need for baptism to erase sin. We don't die physically because of sins. We die physically also because God Yahweh knew the Earth one day would not be able to hold us. By dying we allow more people to inhabit Earth and experience the joy of using our 6 senses: smell,touch,hearing,sight,feel, and perception also known as the 6th sense.

Thus temple, Earth is part of Heaven, but only in the physical part. That is another error when people say that the devil is the God of this world.

The Christian Yahwist

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), March 09, 2005.

Did I mention that I was just joking around?

One time, my almost two-year old daughter decided to shimmy her crib across the room to meet her six-month old baby brother. Then, for some undetermined reason, she climbed out of her crib--went to the kitchen and collected some chocolate syrup and dry cereal. She brought these things to the bedroom--dressed her baby brother in one of her pretty white eyelette dresses, which was hanging in the closet by her brother's crib--and then she squirted the chocolate syrup on her brother (who was in her dress) and then stuck the dry cereal onto the chocolate syrup. Lol!

As if that wasn't enough, then she climed down out of the crib again and proceeded to do the same thing to the walls in their room. This all took place in the very early hours of the morning.

The baby was so entertained by her and the chocolate syrup and cheerios--that he didn't make a peep. Suddenly I thought--why aren't they up? When I checked on them, you can imagine that I was quite startled at the sight. At first I didn't even understand what the heck I was looking at?*%#*?

Yes--evil, I'm telling you!

-- (faith01@myway.com), March 09, 2005.

Elpidio,

You may not see death as a curse. But that is because you do not know the Scriptures. You reject the parts that don't sound right to you.

But man was created to live forever--and even scientists cannot figure out why people do die--since our bodies are designed to rejuvenate and heal. They can't understand the law of decay and why it has to be. Scientists are always looking for that fountain of youth--because we, in our heart of hearts, don't want to die. This is because we are not suppose to die.

The curse was instituted here:

Genesis 3:16

To the woman he said,

"I will greatly increase your pains in childbearing;

with pain you will give birth to children.

Your desire will be for your husband,

and he will rule over you."

To Adam he said, "Because you listened to your wife and ate from the tree about which I commanded you, 'You must not eat of it,'

"Cursed is the ground because of you;

through painful toil you will eat of it

all the days of your life.

It will produce thorns and thistles for you,

and you will eat the plants of the field.

By the sweat of your brow

you will eat your food

until you return to the ground,

since from it you were taken;

for dust you are

and to dust you will return."

-- (faith01@myway.com), March 09, 2005.

Haha, that is quite a story, Faith. Your kids are mischeivous, not evil.. :P You're blessed to have mischeiving kids in a cute way..

Thus temple, Earth is part of Heaven, but only in the physical part. That is another error when people say that the devil is the God of this world. -Elpidio

Oh, of course. I reject the teachings of Satan as God of this world. God said in Isaiah 45:6 -

That they may know from the rising of the sun to its setting that there is none other besides Me. I am the Lord, and there is no other, I form the light and create darkness, I make peace and create calamity. I, the Lord, do all these things.

Chapter 45 and 46 repeatedly states "I am God and there is no other."

Anyone who says otherwise is plain stubborn not to see what that means..

-- temple (jahsmine@netzero.com), March 09, 2005.

Faith

Had you video taped the whole event you would have probably made $10,000. on American's Funniest Videos.

...................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), March 09, 2005.

Please don't post after this post.

Goto part 3. http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=00CrNP

Part 3

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), March 09, 2005.