jewish messiah

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is the long expected jewish messiah going to be 'the son of god' or god in a human form?

-- sdqa (sdqa@sdqa.com), February 06, 2005

Answers

Well Jesus is the long awaited Mesaih, and alreayd is God in Human form...

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), February 06, 2005.

Zarove,

As an assistant moderator, do you have access to the Admistrator board?

Why aren't you or Elpidio taking care of the trash that's showing up??

And I am not taliking about this thread.....

-- (faith01@myway.com), February 06, 2005.


What trash?

.............

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), February 06, 2005.


If she means th eothe rthrwds, it sbece Elp has yet ot sed me the Modertor passowrd...

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), February 06, 2005.

sdqa asked is the long expected jewish messiah going to be 'the son of god' or god in a human form?

Could you explain your question further? This IS a Christian forum, so I'm not sure why you are asking about the Jewish view of The Messiah...

In the Jewish Bible there are MANY Messiahs (in Hebrew "Mashiach”, direct translation is “Anointed”). They were all human's like you and I. (I believe there were 38 different men referred to as a messiah in the Hebrew Bible.)

You are probably talking about "The Messiah" who will usher in a "future age of perfection characterized by universal peace, justice, and recognition of G-d." (Isaiah 2:1-4; Zephaniah 3:9; Hosea 2:20-22; Amos 9:13-15; Isaiah 32:15-18, 60:15-18; Micah 4:1-4; Zechariah 8:23, 14:9; Jeremiah 31:33-34.) ***1

He too will be a human like you or I, and will prove that he is The Messiah by fufilling a number of prophecies (but not miracles) in his lifetime. I'll let you read about those on this Jewish Web site.

Needless to say Jews do not believe that Jesus fufilled the prophecies, and are hence still waiting for The Messiah (and more importantly this time of peace and justice when The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid... Isaiah 11:6).

They also don't believe that The Messiah has anything to do with "salvation", but again this the the Christian forum...

***1 from The Jewish Concept of Messiah and the Jewish Response to Christian Claims

-- Pat Thompson (pat.thompson.45@gmail.com), February 06, 2005.



Interesting link, Pat. Thanks!

Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), February 07, 2005.


YIKES, that first link you provided is FULL of misinformation about what Christians believe, and the evidence thereof, but I don't have time right now to run it down, point by point.

The real biggie is the implication of there being no "historical evidence" of Jesus! OH MY GOSH! That's a whopping LIE! The article says there is nothing in the N.T. concerning the 2nd coming! That's another big one.

Hope someone else picks into those links!

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), February 07, 2005.


Hmmm. If there is no proof of Jesus, there must not have been a Roman Empire and one called Pontius Pilate, either.

............

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), February 07, 2005.


What Should We Make of Josephus?

The Antiquities Of The Jews:
Book 18/Chapter 3.3.

(63) " Now, there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man, for he was a doer of wonderful works--a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews, and many of the Gentiles. He was [the] Christ; (64) and when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him, for he appeared to them alive again the third day, as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him; and the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day."

Here we have recorded history by the great Jewish historian Josephus. Jesus, Pilate, The Jews, and the converts, and the Christians are the subject of history. Also, His miracles are alluded to by Josephus.

...

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), February 07, 2005.


The "Jeu dint exist' theory is popular for Anti=Christains,as its th ultimate undrmining o the faith. Noentheless, is not seriosuly held bny Scholars and Historians. Nor do most Jews waste time complainign about Christains, however, a few Bigoted Jews will emerge from time to time to blast away.

To learn what Jews relaly beelive, visit a Jewish website that doesnt operate for the soleputpose to discredit Christainity. Oen that exists only to promote Judaism.

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), February 07, 2005.



Hey! I have my own personal copy of

The Works of Josephus


Complete and Unabridged, New Updated Edition.
Translated by William Whiston.

So! don't go messing with me. I'be got Josephus!

..............................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), February 07, 2005.


Oops! I begot nobody. That should have been "I've got", not "I'be got". Big difference.

...........

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), February 07, 2005.


Hey Rod, not only that, but Eusebius, the historian of the first several hundred years of the church. Then there are the martyrs THEMSELVES, some of whose writings we have available. Ignatius, the disciple of St. John the apostle would have been purposefully deceived by St. John into believing something completely false.

The fact that the apostles died horrible deaths -- HORRIBLE deaths, and our Jewish brethen would have us believe that these men died tortuous deaths for something they themselves had conjured up! Inconceivable!

What possible reason on earth would the disciples have for making up such a story? And then to die for it? NO WAY!

There are only two positions to take: 1) either Christ was a fraud and all of Christianity is based on the biggest hoax ever perpetrated on mankind, or, 2) He is who He says He is!

I vote for #2.

I have to say, I was really rather surprised at the weak evidence (or lack thereof) fomented in the two web site provided, and greatly encouraged because maybe there's a chance we can win some of our beloved Jewish friends to Christ. After all, we are only the "grafted in vine" they are the "true branches."

God Speed!

Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), February 07, 2005.


I hear you , Gail!

Why Josephus? Earlier, it was mentioned that Josephus did not say anything about Jesus as being the Messiah. Ok, perhaps Josephus did or did not. We would have to figure out what Josephus was talking about in regards to Jesus. But, to say that Jesus did not exist would require that one either accept or reject what Josephus (the great Jewish historian) has recorded in his work. Author bashing? I hope not. I kind of like what Josephus did for both Judaism and Christianity. There is a funky theory that Josephus was also St. Paul. Josephus was in a position to write for his secular and sacred audiences under two names--Josephus and Paul. Amazing.

..

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), February 07, 2005.


This is great.

First of all, were any of the Catholics out there expecting to LIKE the Jewish view of The Messiah? Like I said "This IS a Christian forum, so I'm not sure why you are asking about the Jewish view of The Messiah..."

Does anyone have any comments on the question and my answer?

I beleive it is very important to quote ones sources; I realize again that not everyone is going to like everything on that Web page, but no one has suggested the quoted information is incorrect from a Jewish point of view.

I never said I agree'd with everything on that page; I hope you realize the supreme irony of giving me a hard time for quoting from text I may or may not agree with 100% (ie do you quote Truths from the Christian Old Testament and NOT celebrate Passover as it tells you to?)

And thanks for playing along, rod , although you aren't quite following the script, that page says here that you are supposed to say "Isn't denying the existence of Jesus just as silly as denying the existence of Julius Caesar or denying the Holocaust?" not "a Roman Empire and one called Pontius Pilate"

-- Pat Thompson (pat.thompson.45@gmail.com), February 07, 2005.



Hi Pat,

I think you misconstrued the tone of my post. I am not bashing Jewish beliefs at all, but rather defending my own beliefs. I have the utmost respect for the Jewish people. I have always been curious as to what grounds Jews reject Christ as Messiah. Your links are very very informative.

I am a Protestant convert to Catholocism, and I did so based on evidence. I am a Christian, not based on subjectivism, but based on the historical facts surrounding Christ; the fact of his life, the fact of his death, the fact of his resurrection, the fact of his being the prophetic fullfillment of O.T. prophecies. The facts of Christ are overwhelmingly convincing.

One of the articles you posted makes a big deal out of early Christians inventing the 2nd coming. That is not true. Christ Himself prophesied the fall of Jerusalem in 70 A.D. and he also predicted His return THOUGH HE DID NOT GIVE A DATE, and fact warned that NO ONE KNOWS THE DATE. The early Christians did believe that He would return in their lifetimes -- that is true, but they did not invent the "2nd coming" doctrine.

The STARTLING thing about one of things you posted in your links is the description of Messiah -- If I were to describe Anti-Christ, he would sound EXACTLY like the same man!

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), February 07, 2005.


I beleive it is very important to quote ones sources; I realize again that not everyone is going to like everything on that Web page, but no one has suggested the quoted information is incorrect from a Jewish point of view.

I beelive I objected. The veiws you posted arent "The Jewish take on the mesiah" any mroe than contender Ministies "End times" section is "The Christain take on the ennd Times."

Mist Jews do not bash beleive in Chrust, thought hty do not share it. Most woidl not agree fully with the presentaiton here, though like COntender Ministires, much of th infomaion is accurate, just nto all, form a Jewish Perspective.

Those sites arent in existanc to offer the Jewish perceptio fot he Messiah, rather they exist only to discredit Christainity, and as such are not but Hate sites, not a majorital Jewish perspective.

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), February 07, 2005.


For those not aware, and as Gail points out, I found the following list of times in the New Testament that the return of Jesus Christ is mentioned:
  1. Matthew 24:3
  2. Matthew 24:7
  3. Matthew 24:37
  4. Matthew 24:39
  5. I Corinthians 15:23
  6. I Thessalonians 2:19
  7. I Thessalonians 3:13
  8. I Thessalonians 4:15
  9. I Thessalonians 5:23
  10. II Thessalonians 2:1
  11. II Thessalonians 2:8
  12. II Thessalonians 2:9
  13. James 5:7
  14. James 5:8
  15. II Peter 1:16
  16. II Peter 3:4
  17. I John 2:28
(This list is from http://tenderbytes.net/hal/2ndcomng/ch03.htm I have no way of knowing if it is complete, or if all the entires are accurat, or if the author has a hidden agenda of some sort-- gotta love the Internet!)

I will pick a quote or two, then ask a question on the "Messiah Truth" forum and get to the bottom of this. If anyone can provide a better summary, or even better a response to people that say there is no reference in the Christian NEW Testament to the second coming, please let me know!

For instance, for Matthew 24:3 I assume non-Christians will quote verse 24 "Amen, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have taken place" so I'd rather not start the conversation right back at the start again.

-- Pat Thompson (pat.thompson.45@gmail.com), February 07, 2005.


I beleive it is very important to quote ones sources; I realize again that not everyone is going to like everything on that Web page, but no one has suggested the quoted information is incorrect from a Jewish point of view.

I beelive I objected. The veiws you posted arent "The Jewish take on the mesiah" any mroe than contender Ministies "End times" section is "The Christain take on the ennd Times."

Mist Jews do not bash beleive in Chrust, thought hty do not share it. Most woidl not agree fully with the presentaiton here, though like COntender Ministires, much of th infomaion is accurate, just nto all, form a Jewish Perspective.

Those sites arent in existanc to offer the Jewish perceptio fot he Messiah, rather they exist only to discredit Christainity, and as such are not but Hate sites, not a majorital Jewish perspective.

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), February 07, 2005.


Zarove

OK, I will look further into the Jewish view of The Messiah and try and find a more balanced source of the information I presented. I agree with you that the very premise of that Web page is to provide information to Jews to protect themselves from Christian Missionaries. If you've spent any time on a College or University campus you will undoubtedly realize, from the Jewish point of view, the need for such information (or if you prefer dis-information).

More on this when I find different sources.

You say "Mist Jews do not bash beleive in Chrust, thought hty do not share it."

I strongly disagree with your first point; by definition if you accept Jesus as The Messiah you cannot be Jewish, unless you live in a world of peace and justice for all (but this is heading back to the first point, which requires better sources in your mind).

I am Jewish with many Christian friends and family. If any of them want to talk about my beliefs concerning Jesus I am happy to do so, but I see no reason to bring it up out of the blue. I have no problems with Christians, Buddhists, Athiests, and so on, and I have no interest in changing anyone's beliefs in the slightest. I look to these conversations to help me better understand the foundations of my beliefs; I'm happy if the conversation helps others with the same goal (realizing that they WILL be different beliefs).

-- Pat Thompson (pat.thompson.45@gmail.com), February 07, 2005.


Hi Pat,

I am sure there is very much we Christians can learn from you. Hope you stick around!

As to the 2nd coming, I think the list you provided is pretty good. I ran across a website some time ago that lists quotes from early Christians on the 2nd coming. I'll see if I can find it. Sometimes it helps to "fill in the gaps" or shed light when we can see what our early forefathers believed about these sayings.

Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), February 07, 2005.


Many Jews also do accept Jesus. messianics. Though many Jes reject them as Christian, many others accept them,e specially the liberal seciton and humanistic Judaism.

Jews that accept Jesus Christ as Messiah fall iot two basic categories.

1: That he was God incarnate, similar to Christian Beleifs, but where they diverge was that he was a JEWISH human senrt to maintian and estre beelif int he LAW, and, though his atonement allowed for Gentiles ot be graphted into the tree of Israel, he still remaiend essentaly Jewish.

2: That Jesus was the Messiah, but not God incarnate. The rest is simialr to 1.

Nonetheless, you will find most Jews in general ( At leats in my expeirnce) car elittle for Christainity, and dont go out of their way to "Protect" themelves.

I have Jewish Friends. Oen of my losest freinds is a Messianic Jew. This is aloine evidence that oen can. however, be a Jew and accept Jesus as messiah. However, most do not, and osme ae actively Hostile to Christainity, but then, in todays world, such hostility is rewarded alas. Tolerence for all but th current scapegoat is the old plea...

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), February 07, 2005.


"And thanks for playing along, rod , although you aren't quite following the script, that page says here that you are supposed to say "Isn't denying the existence of Jesus just as silly as denying the existence of Julius Caesar or denying the Holocaust?" not "a Roman Empire and one called Pontius Pilate" "--Pat.

It would be an insult to think that the Holocaust did not exist. Much like it would be to say that Jesus did not exist. It is easier to say that Pontius Pilate existed and to believe it. But, I thought that I did give the Jewish view of Jesus' existence by providing Josephus' account.

Do you accept Josephus as a trusted Jewish Historian? If so, then what about his account of Jesus Christ?

....................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), February 07, 2005.


And if not Josephus, then who?

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), February 07, 2005.

Gail:

Thank you for saying "I am sure there is very much we Christians can learn from you." I appreciate that. I would have been much more comfortable with you say something along the lines of "I am sure you will help us learn more about ourselves" as I'm not interested in actively 'teaching' people things, but finding people that are interesting in learning more about themselves and their relationship to their faith.

I didn't think you were bashing Jewish beliefs; although I see how you could imagine that from my response. How many times I've wished we were all sitting in the same room (granted, with a moderator at times!) to work through these issues. Typing and time delay make the conversations more difficult, as well as not having a sense of body language, or how serious someone appears. I know many Christians who respect Jews and Judaism, so I can readily accept your statement about respecting the Jewish people. See my comments above re my feelings for Christians, Buddhists, etc...

If some of the information presented on the web page I quoted is incorrect, or worse intentionally anti-Christian (rather than just drawing a reasonable distinction between two separate beliefs), I appologize. This too is part of my learning process so I thank you for helping me gain a better understanding of things; it was certainly not my intention.

OK, so I think we can agree we respect each other and our differing views. So from there let the real fun start!

If you are comfortable doing so, could you explain the connections you see between the specific description of The Messiah from the Jewish Web site and your view of the Anti-Christ (do you mean Satan? The Devil?)

-- Pat Thompson (pat.thompson.45@gmail.com), February 07, 2005.


Zarove:

Lets not use the word "Jew" on its own, then, lets make the distinction between "traditional Jews" (t-Jews) and "Messianic Jew" or "completed Jew" (m-Jews).

In this case do you agree that no t-Jews accept Jesus as The Messiah?

I have no experience with m-Jews (except for repectfully declining "Jews for Jesus"'s information on street corners), but from what I've read the whole point is that they DO accept Jesus. I accept that definition. I didn't realize that there were two categories. Are there any Messianic Jews here?

I'm sorry to hear that the Jewish people you know (I assume you mean t-Jews in this case) care little for Christianity (hopefully if nothing else they treat Christians, like all people, with respect). Every person is different, with different life experiences, and ultimately one's faith only goes so far in defining one's actions.

Without specific examples it is impossible to guess where the hostility in a person comes from (and of course then it remains speculative at best). Gail put it well above when she said "I am not bashing [your] beliefs at all, but rather defending my own beliefs." Perhaps you misunderstand defense and offence.

-- Pat Thompson (pat.thompson.45@gmail.com), February 07, 2005.


Rod - I hate to say it -- I'm not trying to discount his writings -- but I know very little about Josephus. I never doubted the historical truth of Jesus (a web page I linked to did, granted). Never doubted it, but quite honestly never studied it, either.

And to be clear, do you mean it is a historical account of Jesus written by someone who is Jewish, or the belief of Judaism as a whole, when you said "the Jewish view of Jesus' existence by providing Josephus' account"?

-- Pat Thompson (pat.thompson.45@gmail.com), February 07, 2005.


Zarove: Lets not use the word "Jew" on its own, then, lets make the distinction between "traditional Jews" (t-Jews) and "Messianic Jew" or "completed Jew" (m-Jews).

{Jew ittself is multiversal, and few peopel relaise this. Many Christains don relaise that many other Christaisn reject the rapture theory. as with any major movement, there are divisions.}-Zarove

In this case do you agree that no t-Jews accept Jesus as The Messiah?

{Yes, that was my point. And some are Atheistyic and Humanistic Jews...}-Zarove

I have no experience with m-Jews (except for repectfully declining "Jews for Jesus"'s information on street corners), but from what I've read the whole point is that they DO accept Jesus.

{Correcgt, and in adition to " Jews for Jesus" you have other Mesianic synagouges in existance,a nd even a ( Poor, dynamic equivlency, bad, avoid liek the plauge) "Complete Jewish Bible" which includes the brit Harasha, or New testament.}-Zarove

I accept that definition. I didn't realize that there were two categories. Are there any Messianic Jews here?

{Not that Im aware of, bt their wlecomed here if they like.}-Zarove

I'm sorry to hear that the Jewish people you know (I assume you mean t-Jews in this case) care little for Christianity

{This means only that they do not atakc or spend time wiuth it. A diffeence betwen british and American soeach patterns.

when I say "Care little for it" I mean they don take active notice of it and do not spend time dealign with it, not that they disregard it.}-Zarove

(hopefully if nothing else they treat Christians, like all people, with respect).

{Depends. i know one Jew whose rude, crude, and compleley self centred.Lyckily most arent. But as with any gorup pf peopel, you cant classify them ... Jews are Human thus encompass a wide range of personalities, so, mny do and ,any dont rreat peopel with respect.}- Zarove

Every person is different, with different life experiences, and ultimately one's faith only goes so far in defining one's actions.

{ Agreed.}-Zarove

Without specific examples it is impossible to guess where the hostility in a person comes from (and of course then it remains speculative at best).

{Hostility comes from a small minority of Jess, as I said. when I said " Care littel for Christainity" I only meant they dot activley take an interest oen way or another. Much the same wya Most Christaisn don acvley lear about Judaism, either to praise or attack it.}-Zarove

Gail put it well above when she said "I am not bashing [your] beliefs at all, but rather defending my own beliefs." Perhaps you misunderstand defense and offence.

{Im only exlaining, not attacking or defending. And as I said, i have Jewish friends.

Shalom}-Zarove

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), February 08, 2005.


[For instance, for Matthew 24:3 I assume non-Christians will quote verse 24 "Amen, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have taken place" so I'd rather not start the conversation right back at the start again.]

i assume that you wanted help with a response to people who use this quote to say that Jesus was wrong...?

if this is true, then i'll post an answer to your response. if you already know an answer, let me know and i won't waste the time.

thanks!

-- rina (emailmarina@yahoo.com), February 08, 2005.


Hi Pat

"And to be clear, do you mean it is a historical account of Jesus written by someone who is Jewish, or the belief of Judaism as a whole, when you said "the Jewish view of Jesus' existence by providing Josephus' account"? "--Pat.

The assertion has been made that Jesus Christ did not exist. Also, it has been suggested that Josephus never completed the equation that Jesus was divinity, nor the Messiah. I suppose that we could debate what Josephus did document, but the fact remains that Josephus documented the existence of Jesus. Josephus wrote about those who followed Him, both Jews and Gentiles. He also wrote of Jesus' appearance on the third day.

Josephus was regarded as an important historian for Jews and Gentiles. Josephus seemed to have taken the duty of writing without bias. Yet, his audience was the Jewish cultures of his time. My questions are:

Is Josephus' work credible in the Jews view of history regarding Jesus Christ?

If so, then how can that website justify its assertions against Jesus?

I could make the attempts to use other sources, but Josephus is so critical to the Jewish view.

BTW, Pat are you familiar with the works of Johnathan Kirsch? If so, do you think that his books are a fair assesment of Judaism throughout history?

................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), February 08, 2005.


Hi Pat,

As to your question regarding my view of the Anti-Christ, please keep in mind that this is not the "Christian view" per se, as there has been wide speculation concerning who this man will be over time.

So this is MY speculation VERY loosely based on the 1 Thessalonians, Chapt 2:1: Now we request you, brethren with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and our gathering together to Him, that you may not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed . . . vs. 3 Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostacy comes first, and the MAN OF LAWLESSNESS IS REVEALED, the son of destruction who opposes and exalts himself above every so- called god or object of worship, so that he takes HIS SEAT IN THE TEMPLE OF GOD, displaying himself as being God . . . . vs 9) that is, the one whose coming is in accord with Satan, with all power and signs and false wonders.

It has been speculated that when St. Paul says "the TEMPLE" that he could mean either the Christian Church, or Jerusalem . . . The rebuilt temple!

Of course, this man of sin won't come on the stage AT FIRST displaying himself to be God, but will seduce the masses FIRST, and then the time of Jacob's troubles will begin.

Very cursory I know, but alas, I have so little time!

Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), February 08, 2005.


rina

Thank you for your offer of help here. I can assure you that I'm not trying to set anyone up here; I guess I'm trying to avoid setting US up 'there'...

I quoted above from a Web site that also says that the 2nd coming wasn't mentioned in the New Testament. I've found a list that suggests otherwise, so I've decided to post a question on the forum they have, looking for clarification on their claim.

Rather than wait for their response, I thought I would see if anyone already knows the 'standard rebuttal for each verse', and include that in my original posting. Of course I don't want to list the quote, the standard rebuttal, and the explanation why the rebuttal is incorrect for each and every verse listed above, so I guess I'd like to pick the most watertight verse, with the weakest rebuttal.

I'm hoping to write something along the lines of:



-- Pat Thompson (pat.thompson.45@gmail.com), February 08, 2005.

Pat? Josephus?

...........

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), February 08, 2005.


Gail

Let me quote myself and say This is great. Last time it was unclear what I meant, but once again I mean "this conversation is interesting" and certainly getting somewhere.

You (we?) have hit upon an important fact; Jews and Christians have different definitions of "The Messiah" or "Christ" and what form and even role "he" or "He" will take. Therefore it is very reasonable that the anti-Christ, false Messiah, etc... for one group will seem very much like the opposite to the other group.

Certainly the Chrisian Old Testament warns us to watch out, so the verse "Let no one in any way deceive you" rings true. But the phrase "displaying himself as being God" is not part of the Jewish definition of The Messiah, and therefore such a person would be in direct contrast to Jewish beliefs, so again, we can BOTH watch out for such a man.

Above we were talking about learning from one another, and I knew there was a good quote that summed up what I was trying to say, and summarizes what I hope to gain from my time spent here.

If three of us travel together, I shall find two teachers. --Confucius

(Rod, my response to you is next... Saving the best for last?)

-- Pat Thompson (pat.thompson.45@gmail.com), February 08, 2005.


My favorite saying goes something like this:

Where two men debate, there you will find a third opinion.

I think that the main reason for not accepting Jesus as the Messiah in Judaism was because of the (1) lack of rebuilding of the third Temple and (2)His death on the cross.

...........

............

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), February 08, 2005.


Rod

It would be a good day here if two people only generated 3 opinions! But that is why I enjoy it here.

Once again I'll have to plead ignorance on Johnathan Kirsch as well, and again make it clear that I never asserted that Jesus didn't exist (but did link to a page that made that assertion). Could you (or anyone else out 'there') suggest a well balanced history of Biblical times that would serve as a good starting point. I'm sure there are many accounts that take one 'side' or the other, but is there anything non-demoninational that people would recommend.

Rod, are you talking about Jonathan Kirsch (only 1 'h' in his first name) who wrote "God Against the Gods", "King David", and "Moses"?

The two reasons you list sound reasonable to me, along with the fact that the coming of The Messiah was supposed to bring about an age of peace and justice which certainly didn't come to pass, which of course fits in with the Christian idea of a Second Coming.

-- Pat Thompson (pat.thompson.45@gmail.com), February 08, 2005.


And Pat, you probably already know this, but there are VERY MANY eschatological views surrounding the end of the end times. I won't belabor those here, but I recently heard one I hadn't heard before -- that there would be a period of unprecedented peace BEFORE Anti- Christ appears. Some say that when he appears there will be peace for a time, but then when his real agenda begins to emerge (that being WORLD DOMINION and power) that's when things really start to hit the fan! The Jews would OF COURSE reject him when he claims to be God.

I never thought of this before, but of course the Jews would expect a Messiah who brings "worldly" peace and prosperity, partly because some (or maybe all Jews) do not believe in the afterlife . . . ? Could you give us some insight into what Jewish people primarily believe about the afterlife? We believe that Christ will usher in an ETERNAL KINGDOM at His 2nd coming. Interesting paradox!

Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), February 08, 2005.


Pat, most historians agre Jesus existed.The Jesus myth thory is a 19th cntry concoctin maign its rounds in th last few eyars based on Hostility of Christainity growing. It sht euntolamte way to undermidne the faith

Asmoimove didnt beleive in God, let aloen Jeuss, btu still said he was a real man,

think, the Christain faith grew rapidly form the first an seond centiry, with peiple dying for a man, and attesting to have met him ( some of the ealry fathers).

If he where a myth, why woidl his ppualrty exist so suddently, asert itsself so fully, spread so rapidtly, and have adgherents willing to die so readily for it?

Likewise, none fo the firts centry types ( dispite misquotations on soem websites) ever chareged that Jesus dint exist.

Basiclay, yo have to wonder how a movement can begin withotu a founder, and still gorw as it had.

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), February 08, 2005.


Zarove

I never suggested that Jesus didn't exist (but did quote OTHER information from a page that made that assertion).

-- Pat Thompson (pat.thompson.45@gmail.com), February 08, 2005.


Just clarifyign for Gaul.

As I said, I like precision in inormaiton. Just check out most comments I make, usully itsless to rpewent myown veiws and more ot clarify things.

Oha nd welcom to Ask Jesus.

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), February 08, 2005.


Your question of "What do Jews believe happens once you die?" has been difficult to answer.

I hesitate to just say "read about it here", but http://www.jewfaq.org/olamhaba.htm seems to present the many differing views relatively well:

I will have to do a bit more reading to answer your more specific question of how the Jewish view and the Christian view compare.

-- Pat Thompson (pat.thompson.45@gmail.com), February 08, 2005.


There is no singular Christain eiw relaly, some beleive in extintion upon death, soem "Soul sleep", that you die and arent alive aan till ressurectin day, others thst your sol si emideatley judged, still others that yo go to paridise or Hades awaitign judgeent.

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), February 08, 2005.

Zarove, could you please elaborate about some Christians believing that extinction occurs at death.

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), February 08, 2005.

Some CHristaisn rejectthe notion fo the afterlife, as odd as it sounds.

This vew is typiclaly foudn in liberal curcles, or academic theologians who veiw the afterlie aspects of the New testament to be metaphorical, and the "Entrance oto Heaven' to mean merley a good life her eon eaeth.

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), February 08, 2005.


And hence, since all the focus becomes on the "here and now" why be good? Why follow God? "Let's eat and drink for tomorrow we die!" as St. Paul puts it.

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), February 09, 2005.

Because of real life consewuences.

You deminstrate why soem Jews canot understand Christains, as this is precicely the image they see of Christains. That they arent concerned withhte realw orld and put all their stokc in the afterlife. They can allow coruption and environmental destirction happen here, and yet font care, since they have an afterlife. They don care about what happens here and lalow suffeirng, ebcauase " All will be right in thr next life."

Of coruse, thats a misrepresentaiton, and not even all Chrisaisn emphasis the afterlife.

Chruch of CHrst dosnt emphasiss the aferlife much,e xcep we go there. We do what is right because it is right and improves the world.

Jews zre the same way, they see obeying the law of God because it leads ot a better life.

Fornication, lying, bitterness, rebellion, in the end, they benefit us not, and , even wihtout an afterlife where we will be judged, our life on earth will not be made whole by such actiosn that brign disunity and dissent.

The Book fo ecclesiasticus alone, a Jewish Book of wisdom liekwise knwon as srach, states this plainly, and is in Cahtolci Bibles.

To do wicked in this life is to allow this life to fall short of hat it could be, so be hoenst, be noble, follow God's laws, and thus life a contented life with few troubles.That si not to say torubles wll nto come, but righeous men weather sorms ebtter than wicked men, and wicked men flee lght, whereas righeosu men walk toward it, and to dicovery and honour, and gthus have lives worth living.

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), February 09, 2005.


Zarove's answer seems reasonable to me, Gail, but I'll add my 2 cents too.

The question: what is the motivation for doing right?

Heaven and the afterlife play a large role in the answer for Christians, whereas following Gods law now plays a large role for Jews (I wrote "larger" which I decided to change).

I've read a different summary that suggests that Christianity is more concerned with "reward and punishment" which seems similar to what you are saying Gail when you asked "why be good" if you focus on the "here and now"? Does that sounds reasonable to you?

-- Pat Thompson (pat.thompson.45@gmail.com), February 09, 2005.


Hmmm....

My feeling is that this world if filled with suffering. I sense that we must endure this world by living in a Christ-Like way. Our suffering will end in the afterlife, or our suffering will become our eternity if we denied Christ. Perhaps our punishments are currently happening in this worldy existence. I view it as a sword that is being tempered by the fires. We are the swords. It sounds negative, but it is the price we pay as a result of Adam's sin.

Is there an afterlife? Jesus said that He has prepared mansions for us. Yes, nothing ever really not exist.

............

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), February 09, 2005.


There was a time when I thought that the Jewish faith was arrogant. It seemed that they didn't have faith in God because they felt that God had left them alone to figure things out. After careful observation, it seems that I was very wrong. The Jewish life is a life of walking with God. Well, they walk the best that is humanly possible.

................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), February 09, 2005.


There's that Gnosticism popping up in them symbolic views:

"This vew is typiclaly foudn in liberal curcles, or academic theologians who veiw the afterlie aspects of the New testament to be metaphorical, and the "Entrance oto Heaven' to mean merley a good life her eon eaeth. "--Zarove.

Salvation becomes an instrinsic understanding and belief in the "self" to finding the answers. Resurrection is not really in Christ, but in the self. Suddenly, eternal life is to be found in the mind and the realization that the soul is only part of a string of continuing life. It isn't the eternal life offered by God. They believe that it is the eternal life offered by man. If that ain't Gnosticism, I'm a horse. Basically, the New Age Religion denies the Truth.

................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), February 09, 2005.


I beleive in the ressurection and in the Christs atonem for sin, I just dont think we shudl only be good for reward, btu tioo imprive life on Earth as well.

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), February 09, 2005.

Hi Pat,

Do some Jews then believe that there is no judgment AFTER death where they will stand before our Maker and give an account?

Right you are Zarove, living a righteous life in the present certainly does bear fruit.

So that is why many Jews would have rejected Christ's message because they were focused on a temporal king. Christ's message of the eternal kingdom would have been quite foreign to some . . . the Saducees, in particular.

Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), February 09, 2005.


Gail

Judaism itself certainly includes the promise of an afterlife, and of possible resurrection, so the ideas you mention are not foreign at all. The form of judgement, however, may be different in the Christian and Jewish view.

I found this page to be a good summary: http://judaism.about.com/library/3_askrabbi_o/bl_simmons_heavenhell.htm

The 13th and final "foundation" of the Torah (or of Judaism) compliled by Maimonides' is a belief in the ultimate "Resurrection of the dead". (Maimonides' is Rabbi Moshe ben Maimon -- 1135–1204 )

-- Pat Thompson (pat.thompson.45@gmail.com), February 14, 2005.


rina, have you had a chance to do any research for the question I'd like to post on the Messiah Truth forum? Above I said:



-- Pat Thompson (pat.thompson.45@gmail.com), February 17, 2005.

Oh that's wonderful Pat. I'm glad you cleared that up, and thanks for the site! I'll check it out when I have a moment (or two)

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), February 17, 2005.

It is my belief that it is both. The Jewish Messiah was the son of G-d made flesh. G-d is of three parts, himself, than taking the very essances of his word, the same word that he spoke to create the heavens and the earth and made it flesh to dwell among us as a living testimony of that word. John 1:14. Its third part would be the Holy Spirt,we can't forget about the spirit of G-d. With the Messiah being the Word of G-d, it would have had to been the words of the Old Convenant, right? There was no new Convenant written at that time. So his example that he,the Messiah lived would have had to live.. I have to say He obeyed Torah 100%. because being from the tribe of Judah (The ones that stayed faithful to the(Torah) Laws of G-d) showed us how it is intended for us to live. Jews will never relate to Jesus Christ as being the Jewish Messiah because he is shown as a "Lawless One" as well as christians relating to Yeshua "Jesus" as the Jewish Messiah due to the fact they are not aware that he did honor the Torah... I have come to "know" the Messiah and finding out that Torah is for "all" who believe. As well as Yeshua (The Jesus I was save with)is for the homeborn and strangers alike, G-d did not leave anyone out. Those of the natural branchs or the wildbranches graphed in...There would only be one root to this tree and that root being Messiah/Torah. And for those that left egypt,the children of Isreal as well as the mixed multitudes, all were given the same commandments at Mt. Sinai, all are included in the promises given in his word as well as the punishments of not obeying the word...(I would study what those promises are in a hebrew point of veiw) Because the Greek translation does an injustise. This my sisters and brothers would wrapp up the differances with the Jews and the Gentiles..Of this day and age due to the fact that at the time of the Messiah, Jews did beleive in the Messiah as the Torah and the Tanakh had prophecied. His teachings and miracles caught the attention of the Gentiles to turn to the ONE TRUE G-D and way from the pagan ways and tradition that they followed. Because he is such an AWESOME G-d!!!!!!and I know that we all can agree on that..He is restoring in these last days his pure language... so That they ALL may call on the name of the LORD. ZEPH 3:9.

Benita

-- Benita Mcclattie (mcclattie2@aol.com), February 23, 2005.


in the beginning was the WORD and the WORD was with G-D,and the WORD was G-D,HE was with G-D in the beginning.ALL things come to be through him,and without him nothing made had being.in him was life,and the life was the light of mankind. the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not suppressed it,[john 1:1-5] and the WORD become a human being and lived whit us,and we saw his sh'khinah,[john 1:14]whenever G-d's word comes forth, immediately when ever it is spoken it exist,[Luke 1:30-31]the angel said to her ,don't be afeaid ,Miryam for you have found favor with G-D.Look! You will become pregnant,you will give birth to a son, and you are to name him YESHUA.he will be great,he will be called SON of HA'ELYON,ADNAI,G-D will give him the throne of his forefather David, and he willrule the House OF YA'AKOV FOREVER-- there will be no end to his KINGDOM. THE WORD [YESHUA]now would be manifested in the flesh, this manifested WORD[YESHUA]OFG-D would be written on the hearts of his people. shalom Mary

-- Mary R. Pacheco (mrpacheco@tds.net), February 24, 2005.

Pat, you wrote:

""Certainly the Chrisian Old Testament warns us to watch out, so the verse "Let no one in any way deceive you" rings true. But the phrase "displaying himself as being God" is not part of the Jewish definition of The Messiah, and therefore such a person would be in direct contrast to Jewish beliefs, so again, we can BOTH watch out for such a man.""

The Jewish definition of the Messiah has a sort of secular tone-they seem to wait for,

""universal peace, justice "",

a sort of earthly Kingdom of God, whereas the Christian Kingdom of God is not of this world... universal peace and justice in this world is a fairly remote possibility. Christianity understands that Antichrist will attempt to establish himself in the world by promising to bring peace to this world, in so doing he would overthrow the notion of a Kingdom to come not of this world. So replacing Christs Kingdom with his own- so 'displaying himself in place of God'.

""such a person would be in direct contrast to Jewish beliefs, so again, we can BOTH watch out for such a man.""

Such a man who could bring earthly universal peace & justice is the type of Messiah the Jews wait for now.

and yes we are both watching out for such a man.

-- (dot4@hotmail.co.uk), February 25, 2005.


Welcome to our forum Mary, Benita, and dot@...

Benita and Mary Pacheco, do you believe then that Jesus is God himself?

dot@....what name can we use for you?

The Christian Yahwist

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), February 25, 2005.


Whatever gives you most pleasure Elpidio. Faith might have a couple of juicy ones!

-- Ming the Merciless (dot4@hotmail.co.uk), February 25, 2005.

dot

Does Christianity expect the Antichrist to claim he is God? Jews beleive that The Messiah will be a human like you or I.

From http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01559a.htm I see:



-- Pat Thompson (pat.thompson.45@gmail.com), February 25, 2005.

As far as I can remember:

Antichrist will attempt to come to power by promising peace.

The Jews will believe in him. [Christ said something like 'but another will come and him you WILL listen to']

He will be an actual man, as opposed to satan as a man.

He will have given over his will completely to satan.

He is expected at first to rise to power by ordinary means.

Later diverse signs & wonders performed by evil spirits directed by the devil, claimed as miracles, fools many.

later near the end of his time He sets himself up as God, the Jews abandon him at this point, he attempts some final miraculus display and is struck dead by God And Christ appears in great power and glory.

-- dot (dot4@hotmail.co.uk), February 25, 2005.


Lawlessnes And because lawlessness is multipied,most people's love will grow cold"[matthew 24:12]The Jewish New Testament render this verse as"...and many people's love will grow cold because of increased distance from TORAH. THE TORAH,specificlly,includes an important moral and ethical code and the consquences for breaking them,penalties such as death were incorporated into the Scripture so that when a society saw the result of what happens by murdering,kidnappng,raping,or committing host of other high offenses,it would deter that crime from being committed.[matthew24:12] not only implies thatpeople will not want to love their neighbor [Leviticus19:18;/Deuteronomy6:5; /Matthew22:36-38;/mark12:28-31]but that society will have devolved to the point of where lawessness will be commonplace. mary

-- Mary R. Pacheco (mrpacheco@tds.net), March 03, 2005.

Hello Zarove,

""I beleive in the ressurection and in the Christs atonem for sin, I just dont think we shudl only be good for reward, btu tioo imprive life on Earth as well. ""

I'm not picking on you Zarove, but there is an interesting idea which suggested itself in what you said here:

""I just dont think we shudl only be good for reward""

Is Heaven a reward for doing good?

Can we reach a point of perfection which covers duty, after which you work for reward?

Can co-operating in the restoration of creation, Gods plan, be thought of as something to be rewarded for or as a simple obligation to do ones duty?

-- Ming the Merciless (dot4@hotmail.co.uk), March 03, 2005.


Lawlessness....is something that has happened many times through history,Mary Pacheco.

Some cases after these words were said:

66-70 AD: Nazororeans(Jesus Jewish and Samaritans disciples) and Christians(Greeks and Macedonians) thought the end had come. Destruction of Jerusalem. The end did not come.

313-324 AD. End of the Old Roman Empire. Christians took over in the end.

451-471-End of the Western Roman Empire. Huns, Ostrogoths,...attack Rome.Sack it.

630 -711 Muslims destroy the Eastern Roman Empire and take Northern Africa.

1451 Turks take over Eastern Emprire.

.... 1801-1815 Napoleon

1914-1918 WWI

1936-1945 WWW (started in Spain in 1936...)

......

The end never came.

his tells you that Revelation came true almost 98 % during the period 66-133 AD. Jerusalem was destroyed twice: AD 70 and AD 132-33.

The Christian Yahwist

The Christian Yahwist

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), March 03, 2005.


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