elow is thr sermon of Psuedo-Ephraem, used by many pre-tribulaiton Rapturists as proof that the Rapture Theory extends bakc tot he time of the early chruch Fathers.

Presented here as a document, please see for yourselves what it says.

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), January 05, 2005

Answers

Posted in sections, to ensure that Greenspun doesnt crahs ny a single long, lengthy post...

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), January 05, 2005.

Section 1 Dearly beloved brothers, believe the Holy Spirit who speaks in us. We have already told you that the end of the world is near, the consummation remains. Has not faith withered away among mankind? How many foolish things are seen among youths, how many crimes among prelates, how many lies among priests, how many perjuries among deacons! There are evil deeds among the ministers, adulteries in the aged, wantonness in the youths--in mature women false faces, in virgins dangerous traces! In the midst of all this there are the wars with the Persians, and we see struggles with diverse nations threatening and "kingdom rising against kingdom." When the Roman empire begins to be consumed by the sword, the coming of the Evil One is at hand. It is necessary that the world come to an end at the completion of the Roman empire. In those days two brothers will come to the Roman empire who will rule with one mind; but because one will surpass the other, there will be a schism between them. And so the Adversary will be loosed and will stir up hatred between the Persian and Roman empires. In those days many will rise up against Rome; the Jewish people will be her adversaries. There will be stirrings of nations and evil reports, pestilences, famines, and earth quakes in various places. All nations will receive captives; there will be wars and rumors of wars. From the rising to the setting of the sun the sword will devour much. The times will be so dangerous that in fear and trembling they will not permit thought of better things, because many will be the oppressions and desolations of regions that are to come.

-- zarove (zaroff3@juno.com), January 05, 2005.

Section 2 We ought to understand thoroughly therefore, my brothers, what is imminent or overhanging. Already there have been hunger and plagues, violent movements of nations and signs, which have been predicted by the Lord, they have already been fulfilled (consummated), and there is not other which remains, except the advent of the wicked one in the completion of the Roman kingdom. Why therefore are we occupied with worldly business, and why is our mind held fixed on the lusts of the world or on the anxieties of the ages? Why therefore do we not reject every care of worldly business, and why is our mind held fixed on the lusts of the world or on the anxieties of the ages? Why therefore do we not reject every care of earthly actions and prepare ourselves for the meeting of the Lord Christ, so that he may draw us from the confusion, which overwhelms all the world? Believe you me, dearest brother, because the coming (advent) of the Lord is nigh, believe you me, because the end of the world is at hand, believe me, because it is the very last time. Or do you not believe unless you see with your eyes? See to it that this sentence be not fulfilled among you of the prophet who declares: "Woe to those who desire to see the day of the Lord!" For all the saints and elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins. And so, brothers most dear to me, it is the eleventh hour, and the end of the world comes to the harvest, and angels, armed and prepared, hold sickles in their hands, awaiting the empire of the Lord. And we think that the earth exists with blind infidelity, arriving at its downfall early. Commotions are brought forth, wars of diverse peoples and battles and incursions of the barbarians threaten, and our regions shall be desolated, and we neither become very much afraid of the report nor of the appearance, in order that we may at least do penance; because they hurl fear at us, and we do not wish to be changed, although we at least stand in need of penance for our actions!

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), January 05, 2005.

Section 3 When therefore the end of the world comes, there arise diverse wars, commotions on all sides, horrible earthquakes, perturbations of nations, tempests throughout the lands, plagues, famine, drought throughout the thoroughfares, great danger throughout the sea and dry land, constant persecutions, slaughters and massacres everywhere, fear in the homes, panic in the cities, quaking in the thoroughfares, suspicions in the male, anxiety in the streets. In the desert people become senseless, spirits melt in the cities. A friend will not be grieved over a friend, neither a brother for a brother, nor parents for their children, nor a faithful servant for his master, but one inevitability shall overwhelm them all; neither is anyone able to be recovered in that time, who has not been made completely aware of the coming danger, but all people, who have been constricted by fear, are consumed because of the overhanging evils.

-- zarove (zaroff3@juno.com), January 05, 2005.

Section 4 Whenever therefore the earth is agitated by the nations, people will hide themselves from the wars in the mountains and rocks, by caves and caverns of the earth, by graves and memorials of the dead, and there, as they waste away gradually by fear, they draw breath, because there is not any place at all to flee, but there will be concession and intolerable pressure. And those who are in the east will flee to the west, and moreover, those who are in the west shall flee to the east, and there is not a safer place anywhere, because the world shall be overwhelmed by worthless nations, whose aspect appears to be of wild animals more than that of men. Because those very much horrible nations, most profane and most defiled, who do not spare lives, and shall destroy the living from the dead, shall consume the dead, they eat dead flesh, they drink the blood of beasts, they pollute the world, contaminate all things, and the one who is able to resist them is not there. In those days people shall not be buried, neither Christian, nor heretic, neither Jew, nor pagan, because of fear and dread there is not one who buries them; because all people, while they are fleeing, ignore them.

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), January 05, 2005.

Section 5 Whenever the days of the times of those nations have been fulfilled, after they have destroyed the earth, it shall rest; and now the kingdom of the Romans is removed from everyday life, and the empire of the Christians is handed down by God and Peter; and then the consummation comes, when the kingdom of the Romans begins to be fulfilled, and all dominions and powers have been fulfilled. Then that worthless and abominable dragon shall appear, he, whom Moses named in Deuteronomy, saying:-Dan is a young lion, reclining and leaping from Basan. Because he reclines in order that he may seize and destroy and slay. Indeed (he is) a young whelp of a lion not as the lion of the tribe of Judah, but roaring because of his wrath, that he may devour. "And he leaps out from Basan." "Basan" certainly is interpreted "confusion." He shall rise up from the confusion of his iniquity. The one who gathers together to himself a partridge the children of confusion, also shall call them, whom he has not brought forth, just as Jeremiah the prophet says. Also in the last day they shall relinquish him just as confused.

-- zarove (zaroff3@juno.com), January 05, 2005.

Section 6 When therefore the end of the world comes, that abominable, lying and murderous one is born from the tribe of Dan. He is conceived from the seed of a man and from an unclean or most vile virgin, mixed with an evil or worthless spirit. But that abominable corrupter, more of spirits than of bodies, while a youth, the crafty dragon appears under the appearance of righteousness, before he takes the kingdom. Because he will be craftily gentle to all people, not receiving gifts, not placed before another person, loving to all people, quiet to everyone, not desiring gifts, appearing friendly among close friends, so that men may bless him, saying;-he is a just man, not knowing that a wolf lies concealed under the appearance of a lamb, and that a greedy man is inside under the skin of a sheep.

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), January 05, 2005.

Section 7 But when the time of the abomination of his desolation begins to approach, having been made legal, he takes the empire, and, just as it is said in the Psalm:-They have been made for the undertaking for the sons of Lot, the Moabites and the Ammanites shall meet him first as their king. Therefore, when he receives the kingdom, he orders the temple of God to be rebuilt for himself, which is in Jerusalem; who, after coming into it, he shall sit as God and order that he be adored by all nations, since he is carnal and filthy and mixed with worthless spirit and flesh. Then that eloquence shall be fulfilled of Daniel the prophet:-And he shall not know the God of their fathers, and he shall not know the desires of women. Because the very wicked serpent shall direct every worship to himself. Because he shall put forth an edict so that people may be circumcised according to the rite of the old law. Then the Jews shall congratulate him, because he gave them again the practice of the first covenant; then all people from everywhere shall flock together to him at the city of Jerusalem, and the holy city shall be trampled on by the nations for forty-two months, just as the holy apostle says in the Apocalypse, which become three and a half years, 1,260 days.

-- zarove (zaroff3@juno.com), January 05, 2005.

Section 8 In these three years and a half the heaven shall suspend its dew; because there will be no rain upon the earth, and the clouds shall cease to pass through the air, and the stars shall be seen with difficulty in the sky because of the excessive dryness, which happens in the time of the very fierce dragon. Because all great rivers and very powerful fountains that overflow with themselves shall be dried up, torrents shall dry up their water-courses because of the intolerable age, and there will be a great tribulation, as there has not been, since people began to be upon the earth, and there will be famine and an insufferable thirst. And children shall waste away in the bosom of their mothers, and wives upon the knees of their husbands, by not having victuals to eat. Because there will be in those days lack of bread and water, and no one is able to sell or to buy of the grain of the fall harvest, unless he is one who has the serpentine sign on the forehead or on the hand. Then gold and silver and precious clothing or precious stones shall lie along the streets, and also even every type of pearls along the thoroughfares and streets of the cities, but there is not one who may extend the hand and take or desire them, but they consider all things as good as nothing because of the extreme lack and famine of bread, because the earth is not protected by the rains of heaven, and there will be neither dew nor moisture of the air upon the earth. But those who wander through the deserts, fleeing from the face of the serpent, bend their knees to God, just as lambs to the adders of their mothers, being sustained by the salvation of the Lord, and while wandering in states of desertion, they eat herbs.

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), January 05, 2005.

Section 9 Then, when this inevitability has overwhelmed all people, just and unjust, the just, so that they may be found good by their Lord; and indeed the unjust, so that they may be damned forever with their author the Devil, and, as God beholds the human race in danger and being tossed about by the breath of the horrible dragon, he sends to them consolatory proclamation by his attendants, the prophets Enoch and Elijah, who, while not yet tasting death, are the servants for the heralding of the second coming of Christ, and in order to accuse the enemy. And when those just ones have appeared, they confuse indeed the antagonistic serpent with his cleverness and they call back the faithful witnesses to God, in order to (free them) from his seduction ...

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), January 05, 2005.

Section 10 And when the three and a half years have been completed, the time of the Antichrist, through which he will have seduced the world, after the resurrection of the two prophets, in the hour which the world does not know, and on the day which the enemy of son of perdition does not know, will come the sign of the Son of Man, and coming forward the Lord shall appear with great power and much majesty, with the sign of the wood of salvation going before him, and also even with all the powers of the heavens with the whole chorus of the saints, with those who bear the sign of the holy cross upon their shoulders, as the angelic trumpet precedes him, which shall sound and declare: Arise, O sleeping ones, arise, meet Christ, because his hour of judgment has come! Then Christ shall come and the enemy shall be thrown into confusion, and the Lord shall destroy him by the spirit of his mouth. And he shall be bound and shall be plunged into the abyss of everlasting fire alive with his father Satan; and all people, who do his wishes, shall perish with him forever; but the righteous ones shall inherit everlasting life with the Lord forever and ever.

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), January 05, 2005.

Source Above unknown., I hapepend into the sermon in my sorage files on my comuter. I apparently saved int a couel years ago... odd sicne I was not that bog on deep religiosu studies bakc in January 2002, the date on the file. Oh well...

below is a point by point of the evidence for Pseudo-Epharem and tis preported Pre-Tribulaiton Rapture.

http://www.geocities.com/~lasttrumpet/ephraem1.html

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), January 05, 2005.

Hello Zarove, I found this to be an interesting and very Catholic- like document! The one line that hinted at what might be called the "rapture" was found in Section 2:

"For all the saints and elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins."

In fact, Faith quoted this exact passage in this thread, and her citation was:

On the Last Times, the Antichrist, and the End of the World, by Ephraem the Syrian, A.D. 373

I find it strange, however, that when read in context, this is the only thing hinting at a pre-trib rapture. Why would he not further elaborate on it? Is there another possible meaning? Thanks for sharing this.

-- Emily ("jesusfollower7@yahoo.com"), January 05, 2005.

The author thouhgt that the Imamnet fall of the roman empire widl hasten the rise of the Antichrist ad the end of the owld. DURING this God wodl rmove his followers, so as to spare them the Judgement of God. Not the riegn of anti-christ. ( In short, after the"Harvest of souls".)

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), January 05, 2005.

So a mid-trib rapture? I'm not sure I'm understanding.

-- Emily ("jesusfollower7@yahoo.com"), January 05, 2005.

No, i read wihhte rest of the Sermon, tou relaise he dosnt make a distinction ebtween Christ coming for the saints and chist destorying the wicked.

so, in short, no rapture.

The preservaiton form "Tribulaton" ( a term that emans torubles, or trials, here, and is n a spacific time period) is to sa that, whoel e world falls to chaos, God wll preserve the faithful an keep them safe.He will remove them from disaster.

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), January 05, 2005.

Emily.,

Perhaps elaboration was not necessary if his hearers were well aware of this blessed hope and it was more of a common belief that simply didn't get much discussion time.

Even among Christians today--you will see that we rarely discuss the things we all accept How much airtime does the doctrine of the Trinity actually get within the Christian community, for example?

-- (faith01@myway.com), January 05, 2005.

Read section 8, secton 9, and section 10 Faith...

at best mid trib, but more obviously not rature at all snce te just and unust ge the same reward...

It shidl also nbe noted that this is a false prophecy, since the autor preeicts lal pf tis by the end of the rman emure, wich ended already...

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), January 05, 2005.

Gee Zarove--

I wish I knew what you said....

-- (faith01@myway.com), January 05, 2005.

By the way Zarove--I read section 8,9 and 10. What of it?

Those verses are describing the same thing that revelation describes and that Daniel prophesied about. It is the judgement of unbelieving Israel...and among these unbelievers spring forward New believers in Christ--better known as Tribulation Saints. The church is nowhere to be found in this time--except that they are with Christ when He finally does return.

In order to be with Christ when He returns, we had to be raptured before hand. And it makes perfect sense that God would rapture us before the Tribulation judgement of unbelievers.

We may suffer tribulations and persecutions at the hands of the wicked--but would we suffer at God's hand? I do not think so.

-- (faith01@myway.com), January 05, 2005.

I posted a link to his sermon on another thread as well. Pre- tribbers are notorious for taking one or two lines out of an entire section and interpreting them based on a formulated doctrine.

-- Luke Juarez (hubertdorm@yahoo.com), January 05, 2005.

Zarove, I've read Sections 8, 9, and 10. Why do you believe this is "at best" a Mid-Trib rapture? What are your reasons for this claim.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), January 07, 2005.

One thing for sure, is that this cannot be a Mid-trib view as the author said,

"For all the saints and elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins."

Is this not a pre-trib statement? If not, explain how.

Other reasons why it shows a pre-trib belief is the sequence of another events:

1. In Section 10, (the Second Coming) Christ returns with the resurrected saints

",and coming forward the Lord shall appear with great power and much majesty, with the sign of the wood of salvation going before him, and also even with all the powers of the heavens with the whole chorus of the saints, with those who bear the sign of the holy cross upon their shoulders, "

2. In Section 2, we are told to prepare for 'the meeting of the Lord'.

"Why therefore are we occupied with worldly business, and why is our mind held fixed on the lusts of the world or on the anxieties of the ages? Why therefore do we not reject every care of worldly business, and why is our mind held fixed on the lusts of the world or on the anxieties of the ages? Why therefore do we not reject every care of earthly actions and prepare ourselves for the meeting of the Lord Christ, so that he may draw us from the confusion, which overwhelms all the world?"

3. The Pre-trib position states that the Anti-Christ cannot be revealed until the elect is raptured.

"...and there is not other which remains, except the advent of the wicked one..."

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), January 07, 2005.

David and Faith, since when do you hold any stock in any of the ancient writers anyway. I mean, what of the Eucharist? There are dozens and dozens of quotes from the fathers concerning Peter and the Eucharist, and yet you totally disregard those with not even a passing glance. And did you notice Pseudo-Ephraem's reference to Peter in the above text?

So we have one questionable passage from "Pseudo" Ephraem and you are both clamoring like horses to water. Amazing! Sections 8, 9 and 10, ELABORATE! Did you even read those? You guys are like diners at a smorgasborg, just picking and choosing scripture, picking and choosing church father quotes. Whatever you can use to support your preconceived beliefs. Glean from the text what the writer INTENDED, not what you intend upon the text.

-- Gail (Rothfarms@socket.net), January 07, 2005.

Why the big fuss? Because some people continue fueling this lie that the caught-up theory is a "recent" invention.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), January 07, 2005.

"Glean from the text what the writer INTENDED, not what you intend upon the text." - Gail

Then why don't you tell us what it means instead of accusing me of doing something I haven't done.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), January 07, 2005.

"There are dozens and dozens of quotes from the fathers concerning Peter and the Eucharist, and yet you totally disregard those with not even a passing glance." - Gail

First of all, I don't claim the early church writers as an authority or part of my denomination. Secondly, your organization claimed to only hold a doctrine under the 'unanimous' consent of the church fathers. Yet, they disagree with each other on alot of things!

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), January 07, 2005.

IT is a recent invention... the quote listed form section two may SOUND to Modern earzs as pre-trubulation rpature sine it uses the same temrinology, Bit in Pseudo-ephaream the quote do snot refer to THE Tribulation, as undertsood by Rapturists, but instead to the torules withhe anti-Christ, and ony means the true beelivers will be sheltered form the calamity of destuctio that befalls the wicked.

In short, they wl be taken befroe the world is desotryed. NOT raptured befre the anti-chrus comes.

Sorry fo the lack of detal, bit busy.

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), January 07, 2005.

Zarove,

Either you are in denial, or you really don't know what the pre-trib rapture position is. You have this idea in your head which doesn't allow you to accept the simple fact this statement is a "prior tribulation catching away" of saints statement. According to Ephraem (or Psudeo-Ephraem?), the Anti-Christ will be revealed after the church is raptured away.

"...and there is not other which remains, except the advent of the wicked one..."

You keep saying to yourself that this idea of the catching away is "recent", EVEN THOUGH IT HAS HAPPENED IT THE BIBLE BEFORE, so you claim we are reading history into this sermon. I'm not claiming Ephraem believed in the exact pre-trib position, but he definitely believed the church is "gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins."--a position held by pre-tribbers.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), January 07, 2005.

Section 4 Whenever therefore the earth is agitated by the nations, people will hide themselves from the wars in the mountains and rocks, by caves and caverns of the earth, by graves and memorials of the dead, and there, as they waste away gradually by fear, they draw breath, because there is not any place at all to flee, but there will be concession and intolerable pressure. And those who are in the east will flee to the west, and moreover, those who are in the west shall flee to the east, and there is not a safer place anywhere, because the world shall be overwhelmed by worthless nations, whose aspect appears to be of wild animals more than that of men. Because those very much horrible nations, most profane and most defiled, who do not spare lives, and shall destroy the living from the dead, shall consume the dead, they eat dead flesh, they drink the blood of beasts, they pollute the world, contaminate all things, and the one who is able to resist them is not there. In those days people shall not be buried, neither Christian, nor heretic, neither Jew, nor pagan, because of fear and dread there is not one who buries them; because all people, while they are fleeing, ignore them.

cHRISTAISN APPEAR N THE EARTH DURIGN THE TRIBLATION.

tHER EIS ALSO A MENTION OF 3 AND1/2 YEARS NEEDIGN TO BE FULFILLE DBEFOE THE lORD PROVIDES FOR HIS CHRUHC, SO AT BEST MID-tRIB.

All this said, its likely in accord wihthe ealry Fathers. If you read in full, all it says is thst Cjrsyaisn wil be taken care of ny the Lord and preserved int his tim of Tribulation ( which Pseudo- epharaem places at the fall of he roman empire)

No Pre-Trib rapture here. Unelss you wantot explain how the chrisaisn are mentioend in seciton 4...

Ill elaborate later.

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), January 07, 2005.

Zarove, most who hold to the pre-trib rapture also say that people can be saved AFTER the rapture as well. This would explain the Christians appearing after the rapture. I do not believe in the pre- trib rapture, but I just wanted to clarify this point.

-- Emily ("jesusfollower7@yahoo.com"), January 07, 2005.

Noentheless, the "Leavign before the tirbulation" is NOT talkign abiut, in this document, the pre-tubulation rapture. The teminology is similar, but there the concept ends, since th Pseudo-ephaream refers to the utter destruciton of the wicked, and the preservation o god's People. Its clear that these are simultanious events iN pseudo- ephaream, as I shall elaborate, perhaps tomorrow, as I need rest to- night.

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), January 07, 2005.

Here is an interesting article on P.E. as well as some further links in this regard. http://www.velocity.net/~edju/Pretrib2.htm

-- Gail (Rothfarms@socket.net), January 07, 2005.

"cHRISTAISN APPEAR N THE EARTH DURIGN THE TRIBLATION. " - Zarove

Right, as Emily mentioned, Christians being on earth during the tribulation is not in contradiction with the pre-trib teaching. In the pre-trib position, the 144,000 and two witnesses will go out evangelizing.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), January 07, 2005.

But Pseudo-ephaream clealry teaches a Post-tribulatin departure whole everyone is desotryed, if read in its entirety.

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), January 07, 2005.

Right Zarove. Either P.E. contradicts himself in the very same article, or when he says "tribulation" in the first instance, he is referring to something other than what rapturists mean when they say "tribulation."

At any rate, "respected" Protestant theologians do not believe this is a reliable document. (Do a Google) It appears the only ones who rely on it are folks like Grant Jeffrey and the like.

-- Gail (Rothfarms@socket.net), January 07, 2005.

Gail.,

It isn't so much that we put stock in anything any early church Father claims, whether we agree with them or not.

I posted in another thread that the only true source is the Scriptures themselves because deception began infiltrating the church in Paul's own day.

The point is to refute Zarove's claim that the understanding of the church being raptured is new. Clearly, the early church indeed recognized this teaching.

If anything, it is the Roman Catholic Church that skewed this teaching and caused so many to stray away from it, and it got lost.

-- (faith01@myway.com), January 07, 2005.

except Pseudo-ephaream does NOT support the Pre-tribulation rapture teory. It just has oen qite that osund sliek it as it uses smilar language.

wen read incntext it doesnt reveal this theory at all.

Likewise, No other Cruhc Father has any "Pre-Tribuklation" idea.

No one seems ot in antiquity.

Not een thr Bible tisself spaks of such, as it is often misrepresented to.

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), January 07, 2005.

Oh well, I tried.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), January 07, 2005.

"But Pseudo-ephaream clealry teaches a Post-tribulatin departure whole everyone is desotryed, if read in its entirety."

So now it's a post-trib rapture?

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), January 07, 2005.

Mid tribbers can take the "3 and 1/2 tyears" comment to make it mid trip, and post tribbers can site the removal before the lobes desurction.

However, if read in its entirety and understood, tis tlakign abothte desurction fo the wicked and assumotin of the righeous.

Thus in iconformity to the other churhc Fathers veiws.

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), January 07, 2005.

Like the Catholic, you Zarove--

Are unable to separate God's chosen people from his called out Body-- the church.

Once you can recognize that God has unfinished business with His chosen people Israel...you will be able to see the mystery of the church and its part in God's plan--which is sepate from that of the Jews.

-- (faith01@myway.com), January 07, 2005.

Faith,

We do know the difference between the Israelites (God's chosen people of the Old Testament) and the Church (God's chosen people of the New Testament). But we also know that the church consists of the elect and we are called God's chosen in the NT [Col 3:12, Rom 9:6-9, 1 Pet 2:9-10].

You claim that Christ meant "the Jews" when he referred to the "elect" in Mt 24. What evidence is there in the text itself and outside of the rapture doctrine, which indicates that Christ meant the Jews instead of the church? The definition of "elect" in the NT seems to change so it fits in with the rapture doctrine.

-- Andy S ("ask3332004@yahoo.com"), January 07, 2005.

The gathering of these *elect from the four corners of the earth is not a picture of the rapture. Angels do this gathering and there is no mention of any resurrection or of meeting Christ in the air.

You huave to harmonize the entire Bible in order to rightly understand it.

-- (faith01@myway.com), January 07, 2005.

"I posted in another thread that the only true source is the Scriptures themselves because deception began infiltrating the church in Paul's own day."

And yet there is nothing to support a secret taking away BEFORE the 2nd coming. Only a dissection of the scripture, and forcing your will upon it.

-- Gail (Rothfarms@socket.net), January 08, 2005.

You huave to harmonize the entire Bible in order to rightly understand it. - Faith

Agreed! The question is what doctrine we come up with when we're "harmonizing".

-- Andy S ("ask3332004@yahoo.com"), January 08, 2005.

Like the Catholic, you Zarove-- Are unable to separate God's chosen people from his called out Body-- the church.

That;s noce, however, this thread was dsigned ot discuss the supposed Pre-Tribulaton statement in Pseudo-ephaream, so my perosnal veiws and abilities ar eirrlevant.

all that is relvant is the queation, "Did Pseudo ephaream hold a Pre-Tribulation Rapture Position?" The answer of most who read the document and discount the single line out of context and its similar language to Modern Pre-tribulationaries , is no.

This documet is not Pre-Tibulation.

Thus you have shown no anciet writters who have held the Pre- tribulaiton theory.

Least of all this Heavily catholic document.

why woudl a Catholic preach a veiw contrary to his churches View?

Once you can recognize that God has unfinished business with His chosen people Israel...you will be able to see the mystery of the church and its part in God's plan--which is sepate from that of the Jews.

Which is relevant to Pseudo-ephaeram how?

The author of this document is clealry dead, and wa cleary cahtolic. Catholcis are Amillinial, and os is this document. Passing similarities in language do not prve a pre-tribulation Rapture.

Thats the point.

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), January 08, 2005.

Actually Zarove--

I believe my point in posting Ephraem's work was to show you that the rapture theory was indeed recognized before the 1800's.

Whether they recognized the timing of this rapture is something we could also argue--as I find his writings support an understanding that the church will not suffer through unbelieving Israel's judgement.

There are a remnant of Israel who will give their lives to Christ during this period because there will be Christian witnesses there to evangelize.

-- (faith01@myway.com), January 08, 2005.

You didnt post ephaerems work, you posted a uote out of context form ephaerams work.

You got it off of a "Rapture" website, that lists several quotes that it assigned raputre menaign too, by sayign this or that Father was speakign of the rapture beofe each quote.

Most quotes on there own seem not to be discussing the rapture. Most where either disucssing the new bodies we get in heaven, or else the SecondComing, or soem unrelated item that was alter given a rapture lable to lead oen to beelive it was rpaturist. If I had JUST posted the uotes withough tellign you what they where seakign of, you wodln have come tot he conclusion that they where abouthhe rapture at all.

Inded, they aren't, if read even out of context.

The only exception was this document, Pseudo-ephaerem, whi one line seems Pre-tribulation rpature as it used th mae language as Pre- tribulationisst use gto-day.

The problem is that in conext, the document makes no Pre- Tribulatin remarks, and asumes the igheous are "Called up" atthe same time as the wicked destoryed...

It LIKEWISE stresses the supremacy fo the seat of Peter, and is a rich CATHOLIC doctirne wrtten int he 600;s AD. Its obvious that the Author is agreeign withthe early Chruch Fathers, and as a result is likely amillinial.

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), January 08, 2005.

So this is what David and Faith believe:

The Elect and the Saints refer to the Jews et al who receive Christ after the rapture. The Church refers to all of the believers now. The Church is raptured prior to the tribulation, and then returns with Christ at the end of the tribulation.

Revelation 19 For the wedding of the Lamb has come, and his bride has made herself ready. Fine linen, bright and clean,was given her to wear.” (Fine linen stands for the righteous acts of the saints.)... The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean.

Faith and David, you are interpreting the "armies of heaven" to be the church that was raptured. But look at how they are dressed

"...dressed in fine linen, white and clean."

What does the same passage reveal about this garment?

"Fine linen stands for the righteous acts of the saints."

The fine linen is given to the bride of Christ to wear.

The passage cleary identifies the church as "saints." You cannot hide behind your elect vs church argument. It doesn't exist.

-- Luke Juarez (hubertdorm@yahoo.com), January 09, 2005.

Luke,

You are confusing me. The church--all true believers are saints.

We are the Bride of Christ.

So how do those verses *not* support what I am saying? Only those who have washed themselves clean in the blood of Jesus can wear this fine linen, white and clean. This is the church. And they are seen returning with Christ--described as armies dressed in fine linen white and clean.

Though the Scripture uses the term elect to describe both the Jews in the Old Testament and the church--in the endtimes, since the church is raptured, the elect are Israel--whom God has unfinished business with.

Daniel's last week needs to be fulfilled.

The elect are Israel...

-- (faith01@myway.com), January 09, 2005.

Faith wrote, "...the elect are Israel--whom God has unfinished business with. Daniel's last week needs to be fulfilled. The elect are Israel..."

What "unfinished business" does God have with the current nation of Israel??? He already destroyed them in AD 70 becuase they killed Jesus...

What else can God do to them that has not already been done for it is written in Luke 21:20-24, "21 Then let those in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her. 22 For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 23 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people. 24 And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled."

The times of the Gentiles have been fulfilled...

The Jews are no longer the chosen people of God for He has taken away their lampstand for God plainly states in Matthew 21:43, "Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken from you and given to a nation bearing the fruits of it."

The kingdom of God has been given to the Gentiles... (See Acts 28:28).

The kingdom of God is not a fleshly kingdom... That is why Jesus said in John 18:36, "My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, My servants would fight, so that I should not be delivered to the Jews; but now My kingdom is not from here."

The kingdom of God is spiritual in nature for God says in Romans 2:28-29, "28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh; 29 but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God."

-- Kevin Walker ("navyscporetired@comcast.net"), January 09, 2005.

Well Kevin, according to Scripture--they only paid 70 years of the 430 years given them by God.

This leaves them with 360 unpaid years of debt to God for their rebellion.

They never repented and according to Scripture.., God would X's that sentence by seven. This means that the Jews would have to pay a debt of 2,520 biblical years of punishment. These Jews were in exile--from the time of the end of their Babylonian captivity until in 536 B.C. until 1948, when just as Ezekiel predicted, they would return to their promised land.

Today, these people are being gathered and summoned from all over the world, and like magnets are being drawn home. God will do as He has promised. There will be a remnant of Israel, those who receive Christ during that final judement, who will come out of the Tribulation period--and who who will live in peace and prosperity in their promised land. This is the 1,000 year reign of Messiah., the King of Kings.

God keeps His promises.

-- (faith01@myway.com), January 09, 2005.

No Faith. You claim that the absence of the word "church" in Revelation (after chapter 4) is support for its absence. Unfortunatly for you, the book does speak of the saints. You just admitted that the saints are the church. You no longer can claim that the church isn't mentioned in Revelation (after chapter 4).

-- Luke Juarez (hubertdorm@yahoo.com), January 09, 2005.

I said that the church isn't mentioned again after chapter 4., until the return of Christ.

-- (faith01@myway.com), January 09, 2005.

Or really what I meant to say is that the church isn't seen after chapter 4--here on earth facing these wraths, these seven trumps and bowls...

She is in heaven., and then she returns to earth with Christ.

-- (faith01@myway.com), January 09, 2005.

"Well Kevin, according to Scripture--they only paid 70 years of the 430 years given them by God. This leaves them with 360 unpaid years of debt to God for their rebellion."

I am not going to get into a debate about numbers with you Faith for that is nothing but mumbo jumbo...

"They never repented and according to Scripture.., God would X's that sentence by seven. This means that the Jews would have to pay a debt of 2,520 biblical years of punishment. These Jews were in exile- -from the time of the end of their Babylonian captivity until in 536 B.C. until 1948, when just as Ezekiel predicted, they would return to their promised land."

Christ already promised that the Jews would pay for their killing righteous blood for He stated in Luke 11:50-52, "50 that the blood of all the prophets which was shed from the foundation of the world may be required of this generation, 51 from the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah who perished between the altar and the temple. Yes, I say to you, it shall be required of this generation."

This was accomplished in the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70... No further punishment on the nation of Israel is required...

"Today, these people are being gathered and summoned from all over the world, and like magnets are being drawn home. God will do as He has promised. There will be a remnant of Israel, those who receive Christ during that final judement, who will come out of the Tribulation period--and who who will live in peace and prosperity in their promised land. This is the 1,000 year reign of Messiah., the King of Kings."

This is nothing but pure speculation and assumption on your part and none of what you stated above has any basis in the truth of God's word...

"God keeps His promises."

God already kept His promise and the Jews have been judged... There is no "end time" judgment on the current nation of Israel... Unfortunately you have been deceived...

-- Kevin Walker ("navyscporetired@comcast.net"), January 09, 2005.

You are not very versed in prophecy or specific details of biblical Jewish history. Otherwise you would have a better grasp of the book of Ezekiel and Daniel for that matter.

You would also be better able to refute what I say, rather than to just dismiss it.

Try reading up on the subject. There are many good theologians out there who have spent their entire lives doing just that--studying the Word of God in-depth.

Those numbers are not mumbo jumbo--but quite specific and prophetic. God revealed much in numbers...we ought to pay attention to them and their specific fulfillment! And I am not talking about numberology, by-the-way.

-- (faith01@myway.com), January 10, 2005.

Funny thing is. Kevin, she keeps syaing the prphet ezikeils plain 360 year punishment is multipleid by seven, as if the prophe just sorta forgot to mention this...

as I poitned out before, faith, its only uncalled fo in your mind.

You seem tot hik tat beteeen the Old testament and the New, a 300 year period, nothign happened. But the JKews where in Bondage frts to the Greeks, then tot he rtmans. this happend 10 years after israel was re-established as a Nation-State.

thus, if you add 360 years, you arrived at 70 AD.

As Kevin poite dout, the "Unpain debt" is paid for, you just refse to crack open a Hisotry book and read for yourself... because you NEED t multiplied by seven to arrive at your ridiculous 1948 Date to support your rapture theory.

so, whoy is it hat they suffer 360 years of persevution as a natiin, and you lciam its "Unpaid for"?

and as Kevin sited, it seems there final Judgement was given already as well.

so whre is the matter of your objection?

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), January 10, 2005.

Actually Zarove--history does not reveal any siubstantial period that even comes close to accounting for the 360 years of unpaid debt.

Don't you find it a bit too unbelievable to be mere coincidence that when you consider God's revelation that unrepentant sin be charged a Xs seven.., and when you do this to the 360 years and times it out from the day they were delivered from Babylon in 536 B.C.--you wind up exactly on the day that Israel was reinstated in 1948??

I mean--come on now.

-- (faith01@myway.com), January 10, 2005.

Actually Zarove--history does not reveal any siubstantial period that even comes close to accounting for the 360 years of unpaid debt.

SO THE MACCABEAN REVOLT DIDNT HAPPEN???

Rome never occupied Judea?

Dnt be so certan fo this, sinc hte New testament mentions ormans occupying Judah...

Don't you find it a bit too unbelievable to be mere coincidence that when you consider God's revelation that unrepentant sin be charged a Xs seven..,

That was not a Prphetic pronouncement, that was part of the law of Moses...

ezekiel said 360 years. by your logicl, sicne they didnt repent, the 70 years of Captivity should ALSO be multiloed by seven, so that it brigns htem to captivity for 490 years...

realisticlaly, I find it less credible to beleive that a SPACIFIC PROPHECY SPOKEN BY A PRPHET OF GOD woidl need to be multipleid by seven base don a seperat ebook, where the prophet nevermentioend or referd back tht elaw, which was UNIVERSLALY RECOGNISED AMONG THE JEWS.

don you find it hard ot beleive that he just sort of forgot to menton it owidl be multipleid by seven as it was awsritten by Moses?

and when you do this to the 360 years and times it out from the day they were delivered from Babylon in 536 B.C.

538 BC... we hav the spacific date...

And multiplying it by seven renders the Prophets syaings a lie, sicne he spaificlaly said 360 tears. did ezekeil rellay not kwo fo the Law of Moses to refer bakc to it even once to make us know he meant it wodl be multiplied?

--you wind up exactly on the day that Israel was reinstated in 1948??

I mean--come on now.

ezekiel prophecies 360 years, NOT 360 times seven, as you suppose.

I am ot goign to call a prophet of God a lair in a Holy Book.

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), January 10, 2005.

Zarove--

You need to respect God's Word as one book written by one author--God.

The 70 years were paid, they do not count!

I find it amazing that you can't see the fulfillment of prophecy in this. To believe that a theologian could invent this or somehow make it work out is terribly stubborn of you. I see no need to reject it-- and can only be amazed at God's precision to the very day!

-- (faith01@myway.com), January 10, 2005.

I'm not sure what you guys are talking about here, but Zarove, are you talking about the interval between the O.T. and the N.T.?

Faith, what you are doing reminds me of the techniques employed by those who see "Bible codes" in the Bible -- techniques which have been completely refuted and exposed by respectable scholars and mathematicians.

Gail

-- Gail (Rothfarms@socket.net), January 10, 2005.

This has nothing to do with Bible codes or numberology.

-- (faith01@myway.com), January 10, 2005.

The similarity is that you have your "answer" already, and you just simply work backwards to find your variables.

-- Gail (Rothfarms@socket.net), January 10, 2005.

Since prophecy is not always able to be seen until the fulfillment-- it might look like that to you. But some things are just impossible to manage. Jesus could have staged some things prophesied about Him-- but for the most part, he could not. And He couldn't be recognized until after He fulfilled the Scriptures.

Does that mean we had the answer and then counted back? No.

How in the world could we force the Bible's prophecy about Israel's regathering to fit precicely with 1948? By counting backwards? What are the odds that it would count out precisely if not predicted by God first?

This is a simple case of real Bible study--not magic or Bible codes or numberology. It is plain calculation based on what God revealed.

-- (faith01@myway.com), January 10, 2005.

1: Yes Gail, im refering ot the intertestamonial Period, th period o the so-Called duterocannon, or else the so-Called paocryphal Books, a period in hisotyr in hwich israel was in subjection to forign powers, and opressed. firts the Greeks, then the ormans.

2: Faith, the math speaks for itsself. Ezekiel said they woudl be punisjed for 360 years, not 2520 years.

by Multiplying it by seven, you do not show how prphecy was inended ot be read, sicne no where in Ezekiel does it say it will be extended by seven. You multipy it by seven, and reassign the date of the return form exile, to make the Prphecy fit "to the day".

You also demand of me to show the 360 years htey ddnt pay for, and when I do, yo ignore it.

You asusme that, unless we mltiply it by seven, base don the Mosaic law and not the plain word of scripture form Ezekiel, the 360 years are utterly unacounted for.

yet if thats true, then the Jews where NOT sffering for the 2520 years YOU claim, sicne htye had to START the sufferage in 536 BC. If they WHERE in fact suffering in 536 BC then I can safley say that the 360 years was alreayd fulfilled as 360 years, and you cant say anyhtign abut it since to do iso is to admit the did NOT siffer in 536 BC whic your own prophecy need them to do.

All Im sayung is this Faith.

360 years in ezekiel is 360 years. Multiplying it by seven base dn the mosaic law is not grounded reasoning. If God was gign to magify the punshment seven fold, then why did the Prphet overlook this etal and not bother mentoning it in the book he wrote?

Ultimatle, the Bible is NOT a single book, moreover, even if it WHERE a singular book. the word of God is plaina nd straighforward. You don need number games and leaping ofmr book to book, using one to undersand the other in the fashion you have done.

when a prophet write a prphect, that was the prophecy. ezekiel said 360 years, thus 350 years.

Not 2520 years.

This period ended in 70 AD.

Afterthe roman occupation.

They where Found guilty, and scattered, for rejectign the Messiah.

Thdre is no more to it than this...

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), January 10, 2005.

That makes absolute sense, Zarove. The 70 A.D. desecretion of the temple was the end of the O.T. period, and it also fullfills the prophecy given by the Lord.

Faith, why in the world are you hanging on to this multiplication game? It's a no-brainer. If you start adding and subtracting, and multiplying and dividing with any old number, any time you want, you can come up with anything!

-- Gail (Rothfarms@socket.net), January 10, 2005.

That's not what I did Gail.

I followed Scripture.., I timed the remaining 360 years by seven, as God decrees., and I came up with 2,520 biblical years of remaining punishment. Now you can ignore this astonishing fulfillment if you'd like--but when you do the math properly, and you count from the spring of 536, when the Jews were delivered from captivity--you end in 1948.

Coincidence?

I think not.

-- (faith01@myway.com), January 10, 2005.

But where does the Bible say to times it by 7?

-- Gail (Rothfarms@socket.net), January 10, 2005.

Now wait just a second. Faith, the term "saints" is given to the church returning with Jesus at his second coming, but the term "saints" is also used throughout the book of Revelation. How can you say the church isn't mentioned except at the beginning and the end?

So sometimes the "saints" refers to the church and sometimes it doesn't, depending on how it fits with your doctrine?

-- Luke Juarez (hubertdorm@yahoo.com), January 10, 2005.

Gail..

It's a biblical revelation found in a divine principle revealed to Israel in Leviticus 26. In this chapter the Lord established promises and punishments for Israel based on her obedience and her disobedience.

On four different occasions in this passage, God told Israel that if, after being punished for her sins, she still refused to repent, the punishments previously specified would be multiplied by seven.

Verses 18-20

" 'If after all this you will not listen to me, I will punish you for your sins seven times over. I will break down your stubborn pride and make the sky above you like iron and the ground beneath you like bronze. Your strength will be spent in vain, because your soil will not yield its crops, nor will the trees of the land yield their fruit. "

verses 21-24

" 'If you remain hostile toward me and refuse to listen to me, I will multiply your afflictions seven times over, as your sins deserve. I will send wild animals against you, and they will rob you of your children, destroy your cattle and make you so few in number that your roads will be deserted.

" 'If in spite of these things you do not accept my correction but continue to be hostile toward me, I myself will be hostile toward you and will afflict you for your sins seven times over.

verses 27-28

" 'If in spite of this you still do not listen to me but continue to be hostile toward me, then in my anger I will be hostile toward you, and I myself will punish you for your sins seven times over."

-- (faith01@myway.com), January 10, 2005.

Oh my gosh, Faith, that is completely absurd. Why can't you just read scripture in its proper context rather than trying to come up with all this hoogely-boogely nonsense. The Bible isn't a book of magic numbers, secret codes and mystical messages meant only for the "enlightened" to interpret. Where do you get this stuff?

You are going to drive yourself NUTS if you continue to approach the Word of God in this manner.

-- Gail (Rothfarms@socket.net), January 10, 2005.

The saints are in heaven Luke--and they are not experiencing the wrath of God.

Please cite a verse in Revelation where we see the church or saints experiencing the wrath of God.

The only mention of the church that I could find was only an indirect one in this:

Revelation 17:8...... The inhabitants of the earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the creation of the world will be astonished when they see the beast, because he once was, now is not, and yet will come.

In that verse we can see that the church will not be there to witness the beast--it is those who have *not* been found in the Book of Life. The inhabitants of the earth during Tribulation are unbelievers!

Tribulation saints are believers--after the fact, so to speak. We don't see mention of the church until the last paragraphs after God's wrath is over.

-- (faith01@myway.com), January 10, 2005.

Tell yourself whatever you need to Gail. But it is lazy and irresponsible not to understand God's total revelation in favor of the things you find easy and comfortable.

If you think God was working magic or trickery in his decrees--then ignore it.

I find His precision fascinating. He's got me hooked!

-- (faith01@myway.com), January 10, 2005.

Faith, the Levitical laws where designed for individuals who roke them,and where standing.

Prophecy is NOT standign law, but prediction fohat will happen.

if God meant us to Multiply the 360 years by seven, he woidl have told us this owuld be done, he did not.

Likewise, yiou say NO punishent period happened beten ezekiel and jesus. if this time wa sindeed a period of Punishment for the Jews, then your whoel case collapses...

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), January 10, 2005.

Huh?

My case adds up perfectly--to the day as a matter of fact.

-- (faith01@myway.com), January 10, 2005.

But Faith the Bible is FULL OF NUMBERS! Don't you get it? If you had needed to multiply times 6, you could find a verse to do it by. If you had needed to multiply by 3, you could find a verse to do it by. The point Zarove is making is that you don't have to multiply AT ALL, and it brings you to the 70 A.D. date which is a CRITICAL DATE; the date on which the Old Covenant was completely and utterly destroyed . . . an event predicted by our Lord!

-- Gail (Rothfarms@socket.net), January 10, 2005.

"Tribulation saints are believers--after the fact, so to speak. We don't see mention of the church until the last paragraphs after God's wrath is over. "- Faith

So the Saints of Revelation 19 are the church, but the saints in the remainder of the chapter (Rev. 3:7,10; Rev. 14:12) are not the church, only believers?

And there is no passage in all of the Bible or between heaven and Earth that confirms what you are saying.

-- Luke Juarez (hubertdorm@yahoo.com), January 10, 2005.

A deeper understanding of theology and prophecy would reveal to you that 360 years of unpaid punishment is out there. There is no historical correlation that answers the question about where was this paid by the Jews. God does not just forget His decrees and punishments. That is what Tribulation is all about. There is thus far only 69 of the 70 weeks of Daniels prophecy that can be accounted for.

The last week, known as Jacob's Trouble, is future. This has been interupted by the church age.

There is so much indepth study that the average person misses.

The bottom line is that God said seven time over....and when you multiply the unpaid years left by seven., and add them to the time the Jews were delivered, you get 1948!! I mean--hello??

I think its worth looking at.

-- (faith01@myway.com), January 10, 2005.

RIGHT, so we shoudl ignore the Hisotry that fall between the testaments and the clear desructonfo Jerusalem in 70 AD, and retend notign bad happened, excpet bad thign shad to ahppen even in tour version, and pretend its multiied by seven becae n unrelated book, leviticus, said that if peopel didnt repent they wiudl, as individuals, be unihed seven times as much...

Get real Faith, an get a grip.Ezekiel said 360 years and meant it.

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), January 10, 2005.

Faith, if the reign of Antiochus Epiphanes against the Jews during the Macabbean period (in the interval between the Covenants) doesn't tell you when and how the Jews "paid for it" as you say, then you must not have read it.

Furthermore, the books of Maccabees contain fullfilment of prophesies given in The Book of Daniel about that terrible reign of terror.

There is no need for your mathematical wizardry, no matter how inspired you think it is. There is no need to excise the 360 years prior to Christ and pretend it didn't happen so you can "champion the cause" and come up with this ridicululous "formula."

-- Gail (Rothfarms@socket.net), January 10, 2005.

"Funny thing is. Kevin, she keeps syaing the prphet ezikeils plain 360 year punishment is multipleid by seven, as if the prophe just sorta forgot to mention this..."

Exactly Zarove... LOL... She just seems to keep "adding" to scripture where it suits her fancy to prop up her false doctrine... It is interesting to note that she cannot prove this 360 x 7 for this is nothing but a concoction of those who do not love the truth and are willing to go to any extreme to try to prove their doctrines that cannot be found in God's word...

-- k\ ("navyscporetired@comcast.net"), January 10, 2005.

do the math k/..,

I couldn't concoct that if I tried!

-- (faith01@myway.com), January 11, 2005.

Ezekiel said "360 years" , amdno where ,ade allusion to Levitica Law that extgneds ounihsment by sevn fo a reepa offender...

No where.

So Ill take His word for it, 360 years...ANd it just so happens Hisotry records this as well... 360 years of oppresin for the Jews...

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), January 12, 2005.