FAITH-THE RAPTURE

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OK, below is the thread abyththe rapture, Faith,pelase tell me the evidence of this theory.

Please dont mind my attakcs on the theory, there not meant as personal agisnt you, I just do not see the theory itsself as teneble.

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), December 27, 2004

Answers

Proverbs 1:5; A wise man will hear, and will increase learning; and a man of understanding shall attain unto wise counsels:

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), December 27, 2004.

From the other thread, to pick up where we all left off...

That is nonsense Zarove-- There are plenty of early writings that show that these church Fathers indeed recognized the revelation of the rapture--which *is* in the Scriptures.

I have posted these things before.

I'll have to do search to find them again if you want to see them.

-- (faith01@myway.com), December 27, 2004.

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It woidl be wise to show evidence, rather than elude to it. I knwo I am likewise guilty of this offence, hwoever, I never beleived the rapture theory, and neither was it taught by any Chruch till the 19cth Century, as it is my understanding at least. I hold to an Amillinial posiiton, precisly because of the lakc of evidence. Not only is there a lack of a mention spacificlaly of "The rapture" in scriptrues, but most of the cases for the rapture Ive seen take a snippit here and a clip ther and stitch togather toe Doctorien form left ove rparts of Scirttuee pilfered from other locaitons, often tlakign on diverse mattrs.

However, this thread has gone on too long ad is beying it spurpose, so, if you will dome one kindness, and not post such evidence for the rapture on this thread, nut open a new one, I should appriciate this. Indeed, I shal open a new thread for you.

Pease do nto respond to this thread ahain Faith, on the mater of the rapture, allow us to smpley discuss it int he new thread.

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), December 27, 2004.

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There are plenty of early writings that show that these church Fathers indeed recognized the revelation of the rapture--which *is* in the Scriptures. - Faith

Would you consider these same church Fathers to be reliable witnesses for other Christian doctrines too?

-- Andy S ("ask3332004@yahoo.com"), December 27, 2004.

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Ignore that last response. Johnny come lately again. Typing as Zarove posted.

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), December 27, 2004.


To which Gail added...

Faith, there is no such thing as the "rapture." That was an invention of Scofield and Darby. There is one puny little quote from one early church father that Rapturists rely on to make their case. However, when you look up the quote in context, it doesn't say what they think it says. FYI to David, Hank Hanengraf recently made his official stance on the the Rapture after years of study and DOES NOT believe it exists.

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), December 27, 2004.

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BTW, Faith, 2nd coming quotes from the fathers don't count. All Christians (at least most and including Catholics) believe Christ is coming ONE MORE TIME. Rapturists believe Christ is coming two more times.

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), December 27, 2004.

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), December 27, 2004.


Incedntlaly, I intend this to be a civil discussion, and not the heated exchnges of late. seaosnal stress seems ot have worked its way ntot he forum, but thats all past now, so, Faith, VBe polite and so shall we, and we shall discuss this theory, wont we?

-- ZQAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), December 27, 2004.

I am always polite Zarove. Here you go again. Please refrain from admonishing me.

I am direct and to the point.

Here's a few for you Zarove--

"For all the saints and Elect of God are gathered, prior to the Tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins" (On the Last Times, the Antichrist, and the End of the World, by Ephraem the Syrian, A.D. 373).

The early Christian writer and poet, Ephraem the Syrian, (who lived from A.D. 306 to 373) was a major theologian of the early Byzantine Eastern Church.

**********

Victorinus 240AD....

Commentary on Revelation 6.14 - "'And the heaven withdrew as a scroll that is rolled up.' For the heaven to be rolled way, that is, that the Church shall be taken away. "And the mountain and the islands were moved from their places." Mountains and islands removed from their places intimate that in the last persecution all men departed from their places; that is, that the good will be removed, seeking to avoid the persecution."

Commentary on Revelation 15.1 - "And I saw another great and wonderful sign, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is completed the indignation of God.' For the wrath of God always strikes the obstinate people with seven plagues, that is, perfectly, as it is said in Leviticus; and these shall be in the last time, when the Church shall have gone out of the midst." Cyprian 250 AD

Epistle 55 -

The Antichrist is coming, but above him comes Christ also. The enemy goeth about and rageth, but immediately the Lord follows to avenge our suffering and our wounds. The adversary is enraged and threatens, but there is One who can deliver us from his hands." It is significant that he did not write about enduring the persecution of the Antichrist. Rather, Cyprian promised that Christ "is One who can deliver us from his hands."

Cyprian Speaking of the immanency of the Rapture, he wrote, "Who would not crave to be changed and transformed into the likeness of Christ and to arrive more quickly to the dignity of heavenly glory."

After telling his readers that the coming resurrection was the hope of the Christian, he points out that the Rapture should motivate us as we see the last days approaching. Cyprian says that "we who see that terrible things have begun, and know that still more terrible things are imminent, may regard it as the greatest advantage to depart from it as quickly as possible."

Referring to his hope of the approaching Rapture, he encouraged his readers as follows: "Do you not give God thanks, do you not congratulate yourself, that by an early departure you are taken away, and delivered from the shipwrecks and disasters that are imminent?"

Cyprian concludes his comments on the translation of the saints with these words: "Let us greet the day which assigns each of us to his own home, which snatches us hence, and sets us free from the snares of the world, and restores us to paradise and the kingdom" (Treatises of Cyprian - 21 to 26?).

Ephraim the Syrian 373 AD

On The Last Times 2 - ...because all saints and the elect of the LORD are gathered together before the Tribulation which is about to come and be taken to the LORD...

-- (faith01@myway.com), December 27, 2004.



I am always polite Zarove. Here you go again. Please refrain from admonishing me.

I admonished no one, Imerely said we ought have a vcivil discussion. s this so unreasonable? I am direct and to the point.

No, you only recucyel argumens you accet uncriticlaly form Pre-Trib wencsites, and dot bother askign where htye gt there ifnrmaiton. I Yahoo searched the quotes, the same few pages kept makign the top o the list...

Here's a few for you Zarove--

"For all the saints and Elect of God are gathered, prior to the Tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins" (On the Last Times, the Antichrist, and the End of the World, by Ephraem the Syrian, A.D. 373).

Here is the library dedicated tothe saint, it seems lacign the work you mentioned above, and I need to see the quote in context, and not of a Pre-Trib website.

Mind showign me the enture work of ephraem?

http://www.tserkovnost.org/stephrem/

This is all I have found.

The early Christian writer and poet, Ephraem the Syrian, (who lived from A.D. 306 to 373) was a major theologian of the early Byzantine Eastern Church.

**********

Victorinus 240AD....

Commentary on Revelation 6.14 - "'And the heaven withdrew as a scroll that is rolled up.' For the heaven to be rolled way, that is, that the Church shall be taken away. "And the mountain and the islands were moved from their places." Mountains and islands removed from their places intimate that in the last persecution all men departed from their places; that is, that the good will be removed, seeking to avoid the persecution."

Commentary on Revelation 15.1 - "And I saw another great and wonderful sign, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is completed the indignation of God.' For the wrath of God always strikes the obstinate people with seven plagues, that is, perfectly, as it is said in Leviticus; and these shall be in the last time, when the Church shall have gone out of the midst." Cyprian 250 AD

Epistle 55 -

The Antichrist is coming, but above him comes Christ also. The enemy goeth about and rageth, but immediately the Lord follows to avenge our suffering and our wounds. The adversary is enraged and threatens, but there is One who can deliver us from his hands." It is significant that he did not write about enduring the persecution of the Antichrist. Rather, Cyprian promised that Christ "is One who can deliver us from his hands."

Cyprian Speaking of the immanency of the Rapture, he wrote, "Who would not crave to be changed and transformed into the likeness of Christ and to arrive more quickly to the dignity of heavenly glory."

This, spificlaly, does not reference the Rapture at all, it meley refers tot he promise of the new Body we are given in Heaven, and makes no allusion to even a Tribulaiton period, elt alone a Rapture of the Chruch...

After telling his readers that the coming resurrection was the hope of the Christian, he points out that the Rapture should motivate us as we see the last days approaching. Cyprian says that "we who see that terrible things have begun, and know that still more terrible things are imminent, may regard it as the greatest advantage to depart from it as quickly as possible."

I woidl love to see this quote in context, I relaly would. As it stands, it makes no clear refernece to anythign other than it beign perchance adventageous to flee imenent danger, advice that is sound even in dagerous situaitons not pertianign tot he end times...

Referring to his hope of the approaching Rapture, he encouraged his readers as follows: "Do you not give God thanks, do you not congratulate yourself, that by an early departure you are taken away, and delivered from the shipwrecks and disasters that are imminent?"

Which means what? Is this discussing the rapture, or is it merley dicussing God's care for his Chruch?

One woudl ahain endulge in givign context. do you have a link tot he text so I may read it? No matter, I shal try find these texts online and read them for myself, thusfar all i have seen is "Pre- Trib" websites that hist these qutes, and no surroundign site that ofers the full text to be read.

Cyprian concludes his comments on the translation of the saints with these words: "Let us greet the day which assigns each of us to his own home, which snatches us hence, and sets us free from the snares of the world, and restores us to paradise and the kingdom" (Treatises of Cyprian - 21 to 26?).

Sorry, this doesnt say " The saints will be taken off the earth, then the tirbulation shall come', it is just a reference ot the Glories of Heaven Beleivers are promised.

similar to the quote of new bodies above, no direct reference to he rapture ismade.

Granted, it dosn cotradict raptue theory, at leats taken alone, but it harldy supports it either...

Ephraim the Syrian 373 AD

On The Last Times 2 - ...because all saints and the elect of the LORD are gathered together before the Tribulation which is about to come and be taken to the LORD...

But ephraem meant by tribulation Judgement. You interpolute the use of th owrd as it is in Modern protestant america, ont the Ancient Byzantine empire. The tribulation refgered to here is Hell, a is made clar int eh document, and not the rise of antiChrist.



-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), December 27, 2004.


Here is an excerpt taken from Dave McPherson's "Deceived and Being Deceived," from here: http://www.endtimeinfo.net/Rapture/deceived.php

"So where does P-E (Pseudo-Ephraem) place the rapture? The answer is found in his last section (10) where he writes that after "the sign of the Son of Man" when "the Lord shall appear with great power," the "angelic trumpet precedes him, which shall sound and declare: Arise, O sleeping ones, arise, meet Christ, because the hour of judgment has come!" (Like Morgan Edwards and Manuel Lacunza, Pseudo- Ephraem has the nasty, non-pretrib habit of blending the rapture with the final advent!)

******

Like I said, Faith, any quote you can find from a Father relates to the 2nd coming!! As do the remaining quotes that you provided. The "rapture" theology does not relate to the 2nd coming, but rather a "secret" coming of Christ BEFORE the 2nd coming.

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), December 27, 2004.


Here is a website that has the writings of the Church Fathers (with regard to end-times) broken down by category --everything from the 2nd coming to the "Mark of the Beast." Really interesting reading for ALL. Check it out, Faith and Zarove. I don't see much commentary, but just actual quotes categorized by topic.

http://www.faithissues.ca/Eschatology/ECFtribulation.asp

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), December 27, 2004.


Gail..,

You said:

BTW, Faith, 2nd coming quotes from the fathers don't count. All Christians (at least most and including Catholics) believe Christ is coming ONE MORE TIME. Rapturists believe Christ is coming two more times.

If that's true Gail, then which way will it be?

Will Jesus come as a thief in the night before the great Tribulation and judgement on earth or after that time of Tribulation?

1 Tim 5:1-9

Now, brothers, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. While people are saying, “Peace and safety,” destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.

But you, brothers, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief. You are all sons of the light and sons of the day. We do not belong to the night or to the darkness. So then, let us not be like others, who are asleep, but let us be alert and selfcontrolled. For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk, get drunk at night. But since we belong to the day, let us be selfcontrolled, putting on faith and love as a breastplate, and the hope of salvation as a helmet. For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Rev 3:10:

Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come upon the whole world to test those who live on the earth.

Don't forget that His second coming is said to be after the great Tribulation--when he sets up His kingdom for the thousand year reign...

I think the rapture is quiet and unexpected and unseen...and I don't think that Jesus needs to literally come to the earth. He snatches us away....

We see the rapture or harvest of the earth in Rev 14:14-16:

I looked, and there before me was a white cloud, and seated on the cloud was one “like a son of man” with a crown of gold on his head and a sharp sickle in his hand. Then another angel came out of the temple and called in a loud voice to him who was sitting on the cloud, “Take your sickle and reap, because the time to reap has come, for the harvest of the earth is ripe.” So he who was seated on the cloud swung his sickle over the earth, and the earth was harvested.

Then we see in Chapter 15 that the remaining people--unbelievers--are judged with the seven plagues...,

Then in Chapter 16 we see the seven bowls of God's wrath...,

Chapter 17 and 18 show the destruction of the woman on the beast--or the apostate religious institution of the world..,

Chapter 19 shows the raptured church in heaven shouting Hallelujah..,

Then it looks like Jesus comes to the earth in the physical, riding a white horse. His church is with Him--the armies of God., and he defeats the devil and all the kings of the earth:

Rev 19:11-16:

I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and makes war. His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns. He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself. He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God. The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean. Out of his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. “He will rule them with an iron scepter.” He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty. On his robe and on his thigh he has this name written:

KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.

-- (faith01@myway.com), December 27, 2004.


I can't resist posting these quotes from the Fathers on the Mark of the Beast. Haven't you ever wondered what the teachings in time past was on this issue?

Early Church Fathers and the Mark of the Beast (666) collected by Carolyn ruth Chapman Hippolytus:

"And the churches, too, will wail with a mighty lamentation, because neither 'oblation nor incense' is attended to, nor a service acceptable to God; but the sanctuaries of the churches will become like a garden-watcher's hut, and the holy body and blood of Christ will not be shown in those days. The public service of God shall be extinguished, psalmody shall cease, the reading of the Scriptures shall not be heard: but for men there shall be darkness, and lamentation on lamentation, and woe on woe and the whole world, in fine, comes to the consummation, what remains but the manifestation of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, the Son of God, from heaven, for whom we have hoped.1

And by reason of the scarcity of food, all will go to him and worship him; and he will put his mark on their right hand and on their forehead, that no one may put the sign of the honorable cross upon his forehead with his right hand; but his hand is bound. And from that time he shall not have power to seal anyone of his members, but he shall be attached to the deceiver, and shall serve him: and in him there is no repentance. But such an one is lost at once to God and to men, and the deceiver will give them scanty food by reason of his abominable seal.2

"Then will he send the cohorts of the demons among mountains and caves and dens of the earth, to track out those who have been concealed from his eyes, and to bring them forward to worship him. And those who yield to him he will seal with his seal; but those who refuse to submit to him he will consume with incomparable pains and bitterest torments and machination, such as never have been, nor have reached the ear of man, nor have been seen by the eye of mortals."3

He will also enwrap righteous men with the books of the prophets, and thus burn them and power will be given him to desolate the whole earth for 42 months. When these things shall so happen, then the righteous and the followers of truth shall separate themselves from the wicked, and flee into solitude’s." 4

Lactantius:

As many as shall believe him and unite themselves to him, shall be marked by him as sheep; but they who shall refuse his mark will either flee to the mountains, or being seized, will be slain with studied tortures. He will also enwrap righteous men with the books of the prophets, and thus burn them; and power will be given him to desolate the whole earth for forty two months...then the righteous and the followers of truth shall separate themselves from the wicked, and flee into solitude’s.5

Victorianus:

He shall cause also that a golden image of Antichrist shall be placed in the temple at Jerusalem, and that the apostate angel should enter, and thence utter voices and oracles.6

Irenaeus:

And therefore, when in the end the church shall be suddenly caught up from this, it is said, 'There shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be." For this is the last contest of the righteous, in which, when they overcome, they are crowned with incorruption But when this Antichrist shall have devastated all things in this world, he will reign for three years and six months, and sit in the temple at Jerusalem; and then the Lord will come from heaven in the clouds, in the glory of the Father, sending this man and those who follow him into the lake of fire: but bringing in for the righteous the times of the kingdom, that is, the rest the hallowed seventh day. They shall lay Babylon waste, and burn her with fire, and shall give their kingdom to the beast, and put the Church to flight.7

1. Hippolytus, Appendix to the Words of Hippo, 251, ch. 34. 2. Ibid. 249, ch. 28. 3. Ibid. 250. 4. Hippolytus, Treatise on Christ and Antichrist", 214 5. Lactantius, Divine Institutes, 214, Bk. 7, chap 17. 6. Victorianus, Commentary on the Apocalypse, 357, chap. 5.13. Taken from Daniel 11:45 7. Irenaeus, Irenaeus Against Heresies, 560, bk. 5, ch.30, verse 4, 558, bk. 5, ch. 29, 558.

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), December 27, 2004.



Faith, Jesus Himself, said "after the Tribulation of those days, then you will see the sign of the Son of Man coming in the clouds in great glory to gather together the elect." Apparently, Jesus did not know a thing about the "rapture thing" either. Perhaps he should have consulted with LaHaye!

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), December 27, 2004.

italics off?

-- (faith01@myway.com), December 27, 2004.

Well Gail..,

I would question the identity of the *elect* in that verse.

Perhaps there is another rapture-like event of Tribulation saints? These could be the 144,ooo that the Bible refers to in Revelation chapter 7.

Unless you just want to ignore these verses:

1 Tim 5:1-9

Now, brothers, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. While people are saying, “Peace and safety,” destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.

But you, brothers, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief. You are all sons of the light and sons of the day. We do not belong to the night or to the darkness. So then, let us not be like others, who are asleep, but let us be alert and selfcontrolled. For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk, get drunk at night. But since we belong to the day, let us be selfcontrolled, putting on faith and love as a breastplate, and the hope of salvation as a helmet. For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Rev 3:10:

Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come upon the whole world to test those who live on the earth.

-- (faith01@myway.com), December 27, 2004.


Zarove--

All you have to do is search the web for early church fathers and the rapture. That is how I found the various quotes I posted. If you want the entire quotes in detail--you'll have to search deeper.

I don't need to.

I am satisfied that early believers were able to catch a glimpse of the rapture that is revealed in the Scriptures--and really the Scriptures are the only true source necessary.

-- (faith01@myway.com), December 27, 2004.


Faith, did you click on to that website I offered? It is a Protestant site, and has some very "scary" quotes from the Fathers. I note in one of them that it states the Anti-Christ will set up a golden statue in Jerusalem!

I have no reason to question what Jesus meant by "elect," as it always refers to God's people.

Your quote from Revelations, "tribulation" (Gr. Peirasmos) means "a putting to proof", while the "tribulation" in Matthew 24 (Gr.thlipis) means afflication, trouble and anguish.

Is that all you have for a secret pre-trib rapture?

Gail

Note, the New American Standard and KJV correctly translates your translation's "tribulation" as temptation and/or testing in Rev. 3.

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), December 27, 2004.



Really Gail?

So you think that the church--believers--will suffer condemnation and judgement during the Tribulation period--or Jacob's Trouble, even though Jesus says we will not?

-- (faith01@myway.com), December 27, 2004.


Where does Jesus say we will not?

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), December 27, 2004.

I posted it to you twice in this thread!

1 Timothy 5:1-9

and

Revelation 3:10

-- (faith01@myway.com), December 27, 2004.


Gail--

you also said:

Like I said, Faith, any quote you can find from a Father relates to the 2nd coming!! As do the remaining quotes that you provided. The "rapture" theology does not relate to the 2nd coming, but rather a "secret" coming of Christ BEFORE the 2nd coming.

I think that this verse is a picture of the rapture:

1 Cor 15:51-57

Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed– in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory." "Where, O death, is your victory? Where, O death, is your sting?" The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. But thanks be to God! He gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Do you think that that is a description of His second coming?

It looks to me as though the Bible describes more than one instance of His coming back. This verse doesn't really say anything about His coming to earth. Rather--we are brought up to Him.

-- (faith01@myway.com), December 27, 2004.


Referring to the Greek in Revelations, Jesus is not saying "tribulation" Faith, he is saying temptation/testing. So I think you really need to forget about that scripture. Surely, you view the original Greek as superior to your translation's choice of words . . .?

Secondly, I think you meant to quote 1 Thessalonians, not 1 Timothy. But at any rate, this has to do with the 2nd coming, not a secret "rapture."

So, you really just have one scripture you are relying on to suggest a "rapture" . . . (or a secret coming of Christ before the 2nd coming)?

I wish this were true, but I have to stick with what the Bible says, and not some new-fangled mickmash from the "ear-ticklers- extraordinaire'"

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), December 27, 2004.


Faith, your quote above my last post is concerning the 2nd coming:

Here are few more:

Matt 26-64 Jesus said to him, "You have said it yourself, nevertheless I tell you hereafter you shall see The Son of Man sitting at the right hand of power, and coming on the clouds of heaven.

Luke 21:27 And then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

Act 1:11 and they also said "Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking up into the sky? This, Jesus, who has been taken up from you into heaven, will come in just the same way as you have watched Him go into heaven."

Heb 9:28 so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many will appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him.

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), December 27, 2004.


.....and 1 Thessalonians 4:1-17

"We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed." "For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus. For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air. ****************

-- (faith01@myway.com), December 27, 2004.


Where is the scripture of Christ returning to earth? I can't find any scripture that says he's making a landing?

I have to run out and exchange a Christmas present. I'll be back!

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), December 27, 2004.


It sounds to me that the church is removed from the earth and it's final judgement. The church will not face the wrath of God in the Tribulation period.

How can the church be on the ground looking up and seeing Christ return when Christ returns with us riding right behind Him?

Rev 19:11-16:

I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and makes war. His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns. He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself. He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God. The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean. Out of his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. “He will rule them with an iron scepter.” He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty. On his robe and on his thigh he has this name written:

KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.

Maybe the rapture takes place seconds before He returns to the earth-- I don't know. The Bible isn't specific about that. But it is clear that the church will not suffer in the Tribulation judgement--the time of Jacob's Trouble--which is for the Jewish nation of unbelievers.

-- (faith01@myway.com), December 27, 2004.


Gail--

Jesus will reign for a thousand years here on the earth after the judgement of the Tribulation period. Obviously He has to come back to the earth by then.

-- (faith01@myway.com), December 27, 2004.


Actually Gail--that's not what I actually am convicted about. I think Jesus can rule the earth without actually being here.

What I should rather argue is that the Scriptures say that Jesus will return in the same way he left.

Acts 1:11

“Men of Galilee,” they said, “why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven.”

-- (faith01@myway.com), December 27, 2004.


1: To Gail- Tribulation is correct in the KJV. Indeed, the KJV, formerly the standard Bible Among Protestnats, is repsoncible for much of the language in Modern day rapture Theory, though unintenteonally so. You see, we hear the word Tribulation, and emideatley tink end Times Prophecy and rapture theory as this seems the only time its used, therefore we assume the Bibel tranlaitons slant int at direction. The KJV predated Ra[ture theory, and the msiapplicaiton fo variosu verses from the KJV help shape the language of the Rapture Theory.

The Term Tribulaiton merley emans times if truble, or testing, or disturbance.

Thus, it is due to the archane nature of the kHV we see the archane use of the word, and thus applied, and acuratley so, to this.

2: Faith- I have checkedthe earlu Chruch Fathers, and even taken in Isolation, your own verses do NOT support the rapture, when seen in context where ocntext can be found, they reveal less rapture than before.

One quote I codl not find, the firts by eapharus of syria, I did manage to look up the others, and low and behold my suspicions wher ocrrect. Often they where either tlakign of our new Bodies in Heaven, or else they where talkign about Hell and Judgement, or else the end, ut none seem to indicate a removal of the Churhces true beelivers form the earth prior to a Tribulaiton, and all see the Beleivers suffer much. They do see many tribulaitons ( Plural, as i the older definitoon, see above) in which God woudl provide for us and shelter us, but none make refeence to a removal formt he world of the beleivers before THE Tribulaiton happens.

The websites you got yhe quortes form are unreliable, as thy are Biased toward rapture theory, and merley qote text sout of context to support there ends.

If you woidl like, i shall provide you evidnece of this.

3: Faith-This most crucial- where in the Bible tisself, the sole and absolute standard, is the Rapture relaly spoken of?

Most arigments I hear for it are takign verses form thesoloinains, mergign them with nrelated quotes form Corinthians, and addign them to bits and peices of revelations...

But no where des the Bibel plainly sell out the rapture theory, to my knowledge. If I am worng, I woudl enjoy beign shown it.

4: AudJuk- We hear the "Paul was evil" and "Paul is the eal foudner of chrisinity" claism often. They ar eboring. Please at leats allow the rapture discusison to go unabated, and if you liek open a new thread to discuss your Paul Bashing veiws.Thanks...

***

nOTE: tHIS SAME PSOT IS ON ANOTHER THREAD, HAD BOTH OPENED AT THE SAME TIME AND MAD A MISTAKE. sORRY.

Pleae answer it here.

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), December 27, 2004.


Precisely, Faith, how can we see Christ coming in the clouds if we are already with Him?

I gather that you have no scriptural support for "Jesus coming back to earth" . . .?

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), December 27, 2004.


Faith, you keep asking me whether I believe we will see Jacob's troubles, but really it doesn't matter what I "believe." What matters is what did Christ say:

Matthew 24:

1. Jesus came out from the temple and was going away when His disciples came up to point out the temple buildings to Him. 2. And He said to them, "Do you not see all these things? Truly I say to you, not one stone here will be left upon another, which will not be torn down." 3. As He was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?" 4 And Jesus answered and said to them, "See to it that no one misleads you. 5 "For many will come in My name, saying, `I am the Christ,' and will mislead many. 6 "You will be hearing of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not frightened, for those things must take place, but that is not yet the end. 7 "For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and in various places there will be famines and earthquakes. 8 "But all these things are merely the beginning of birth pangs. 9 "Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name. 10 "At that time many will fall away and will betray one another and hate one another. 11 "Many false prophets will arise and will mislead many. 12 "Because lawlessness is increased, most people's love will grow cold. 13 "But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved. 14 "This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come. 15 "Therefore when you see the ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), 16 then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains. 17 "Whoever is on the housetop must not go down to get the things out that are in his house. 18 "Whoever is in the field must not turn back to get his cloak. 19 "But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! 20 "But pray that your flight will not be in the winter, or on a Sabbath. 21 "FOR THEN THERE WILL BE A GREAT TRIBULATION, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will. 22 "Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short. 23 "Then if anyone says to you, `Behold, here is the Christ,' or `There He is,' do not believe him. 24 "For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect. 25 "Behold, I have told you in advance. 26 "So if they say to you, `Behold, He is in the wilderness, do not go out, or, `Behold, He is in the inner rooms,' do not believe them. 27 "For just as the lightning comes from the east and flashes even to the west, so will the coming of the Son of Man be. 28 "Wherever the corpse is, there the vultures will gather. 29 "But immediately AFTER the tribulation of those days THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS WILL FALL from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 "And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory. 31 "And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

***********

Faith, your teachers are leading you astray. Christ warns us for a reason, and that reason is so that we will not be lead astray. Jesus is answering a direct question with a direct answer. If there were such thing as a "rapture" why wouldn't Christ have mentioned it HERE? He says the "times will be shortened for the sake of the elect," but not "the elect will be spared these troubles." No where in Christ's own words is there a hint that we are going to escape these perilous times . . . UNFORTUNATELY.

This is one instance, Faith, where I really wish you were right. But your view is not only extra-Biblical, but it is counter-Biblical.

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), December 27, 2004.


I just think that you have to ignore this:

Rev 3:10:

Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come upon the whole world to test those who live on the earth.

..in order to say that Jesus never gave any hint that we would escape that terrible judgement.

In my opinion, Jesus is speaking about the Jews when he refers to the *elect.* The church does not replace Israel in those endtime prophecies.

-- (faith01@myway.com), December 27, 2004.


Yes, the Rapture is in the Bible.

1 Thessalonians 4:16-18 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever."

In Greek, the verb for "caught up" is harpazo. The Latin translation of this verb -is rapturo which is where the English word "rapture" comes from. The Rapture is simply the event of Christ bringing all of his saints to himself. Paul describes this event as "the blessed hope and glorious appearing" (Titus 2:13) No, the Rapture is not an invention of recent centuries. The Rapture is a foundation of the Christian faith, that of Christ returning for his own.

But, as I've stated on another thread, it is usually aligned (by amillenialists) with the Pre-tribulation invention of the 1800s by Edwards, popularized by the Scofield Reference Bible, and more recently, the "Left Behind" series of Lahaye and Jenkins.

-- Luke Juarez (hubertdorm@yahoo.com), December 27, 2004.


can someone fix my post?

-- ergh (hub@hub.com), December 27, 2004.


I Meant for the bold text for the verse only.

-- ergh (hub@hub.com), December 27, 2004.

I'm going to list the reasons why Amillenialism is wrong on the "not a mill anymore" thread, but i want to address a historical blunder.

Pre-tribbers maintain that Ephraem of Syria is historical evidence for a pre-trib belief, that it did in fact exist before it's invention in the 1800s. Faith posted his writings here, and quoted this portion:

"For all the saints and elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins."

Here's what is important to know:

1) The quote comes from a manuscript called "Pseudo-Ephraem," named such because it is not from Ephraem himself nor from the forth century, but by someone who ascribed it to Ephraem of Syria. Most pre-tribbers know this, but it doesn't stop them from attributing the quote from THE Ephraem of Syria. As it happens, we do have manuscripts from the real Ephraem, which conclusively show that he believed the resurrection of believers would occur at the end of the tribulation.

2)As Zaroff was eager for, the context of "Psuedo-Ephraem's" quote shows that he did not expect a pre-tribulation rapture at all!

Here is a link with his entire sermon:

A Sermon by Pseudo-Ephraem

-- Luke Juarez (hubertdorm@yahoo.com), December 27, 2004.


Faith, "hour of trial" is not the same thing as "tribulation." Is the tribulation ever referred to as "hour of trial" anywhere else in scripture? (I really don't know).

Do you have anything on which to base what you think the "Elect," means in Matthew 24. Once again, I got out my Strong's and the word is used probably close to 30 times and always has the same meaning. (It is dispensationalism to believe Matthew 24 refers only to the Jews. That is their teaching. But there is no scriptural support for that claim whatsoever.)

The fact is, that Christ answers a direct question with a as-direct- an-answer as IS POSSIBLE, and you still refuse to take His words at face value.

I remember sitting under the teachings of a dispensationalist teacher, and when asked about Matthew 24, he shrugged his shoulders and said "that pertains to the Jews." I didn't buy it then, and I don't buy it now.

The fact is that dispensationalists, by their own admission, are ushering in Armageddon as fast as they can. Why? 'Cause they're stupid enough to believe they won't be here. That is why they have coupled hands with Zionists and are fueling the flames of hatred in the Middle East. (Google up Zionists sometime, you will be shocked at the evangelical "Bible-believing" pastors that are involved with this ugly thing.) "Israel can do no wrong. They are God's chosen people" is their constant refrain. And yet when it comes to Matthew 24, "Well, that's Israel's judgment." They actually think they are going to "cause" the "rapture" by speeding up political events!!

The BIBLE alone, Faith, does not support your beliefs. You are being taken for a ride!

Gail

P.S. I "believe" that apostate Israel is Babylon, Faith, (the whore is probably a large powerful country sitting on many waters), fighting their battles for them. (Gee, who could that be?) The Antichrist will come out of Israel and they will hail him as their long-awaited "secular" messiah. Do a search of Secular Messianism sometime. It will chill you to the bone. There is a large, powerful movement underway RIGHT NOW and you know what, these guys mean REAL business! Anyway, have you wondered why all of a sudden we are seeing such a clamp down in this country on "Christianity." Did you know the White House website says nothing of Jesus, and that in all of the mini-speeches given by Bush, he never mentions the name "Jesus," but when he issues his Happy Hannuka (sp?) he gives a full two paragraph recital of the trials of the Jews, and the brothers Macabee!

Did you know that Arial Sharron, claims "Israel OWNS the U.S."

Could I be wrong about all of my speculations? YOU BETCHA! But it makes more sense than the garbage you have swallowed hook-line-and- SINKER! AND I don't have to "read into" the Bible to make it say what I want it to say.

Did you know that the early church fathers did speak of the "mark" of the beast, and as does Rev, it sounds eerily like the "chip" that is being used all over the world and has already made it within OUR shores.

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), December 27, 2004.


Luke, The scriptures you provide concerning the parousia relate to the 2nd coming of Christ. Do you realize that the "rapture" theology teaches that Christ will come two more times, once to gather His people, and once AGAIN at the 2nd coming?

Do you believe that Christ will come two more times, or once more?

Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), December 27, 2004.


Gail.,

How do you explain the two very different descriptions of Jesus' return then?

In one instance we are told that he comes as a thief in the night when we least expect him and had no sign or waring..

....and in the other we are told that there is practically a nuclear event and would hardly jive with the "thief in the night without warning" scenario, don't you think?

I mean, which is it Gail?

Will Christ come quietly in the night when we least expect Him or will there be great terror followed by a nuclear event before He comes?

-- (faith01@myway.com), December 27, 2004.


Both events are one in the same.

The comment of his comign as a teof in the night refers to the fact thta we shall b without warning, and not knwo when he shall ocme, hus it is a surprise.

The other is a descriptuon of the eent itsself.

They arent contradictory...

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), December 27, 2004.


Zarove--

How could I be surprised by His coming--or not expect Him to come--in this:

"But immediately AFTER the tribulation of those days THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS WILL FALL from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.

"And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory. "And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

Compare to this:

As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left.

“Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come. But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what time of night the thief was coming, he would have kept watch and would not have let his house be broken into. So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him.

Not contradictory Zarove?

-- (faith01@myway.com), December 27, 2004.


That's right, Zarove, they are not contradictory. Faith, you believe in the literal 7 year tribulation which is part of the problem -- you can't fit all of this together in 7 short years.

7 years could merely means "complete" as the number 7 always signifies . . . the perfect completion of the age. I'm sure you know that already. Things will escalate rapidly towards the end, however, you are right about that. People will go on thinking they're safe and that the world will just go on and on just like they did 2 weeks after 9/11! That has always been the case with the world, has it not?

I will ask you the same thing I asked Luke: Is Christ coming one more time, or two more times?

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), December 27, 2004.


Faith, by the time the sun is darkenign and the stars flaling, Jesus will be here and there won't BE a wait, its all over...

But exaclty when all thathappens is unknown, thus "The Theif int he Night' reference...

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), December 27, 2004.


No Zarove..,

According to the Scriptures--there is coming of the Son of Man where He takes us by surprise. There is no warnings., no signs. He is like a thief in the night., and suddenly--one will be taken and the other left.

That is a far cry from the second coming where everyone will see Him coming on the clouds and every knee will bow. And this coming describes Jesus coming with His army of believers riding right behind him.

How can we be both on the earth looking up at Him and be riding behind Him on white horses--wearing white robes that have been cleansed by the blood of the New Covenenant??

The Rapture is a mystery Zarove.....not easily understood.

-- (faith01@myway.com), December 28, 2004.


You bet it's a mystery. It's a mystery to Jesus. It's a mystery to Paul. It's a mystery to John the Revelator. The only people who seem to understand it is Tim Lahaye and Jerry Jenkings (and their devotees).

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), December 28, 2004.

Luke, The scriptures you provide concerning the parousia relate to the 2nd coming of Christ. Do you realize that the "rapture" theology teaches that Christ will come two more times, once to gather His people, and once AGAIN at the 2nd coming? Do you believe that Christ will come two more times, or once more? - Gail

Do you realize that the "rapture" theology teaches no such thing?? You are being deceived just as much as Faith. Just like I said in my last post, the Rapture is simply Jesus returning to gather those that belong to him. That's it.

However, pre-tribbers believe that Jesus will return and secretly take the believers before the actual 2nd coming (which would become the 3rd coming really).

There is no such thing as the "rapture" theology. If you do not believe in the rapture, then you don't believe Jesus comes back for believers.

-- Luke Juarez (hubertdorm@yahoo.com), December 28, 2004.


Faith you are being blinded! Look at every passage that uses the "thief in the night."

Jesus used it to describe the day immediately after the tribulation (matthew 24).

Paul used it to describe the day in which believers are "caught up" to be with Chirst (1 Thessalonians 4)

Peter used it to describe the day in which the present heavens and earth are destroyed by fire (2 Peter 3)

Jesus used it AGAIN to describe what was about to happen at the Battle of Armageddon (Revelation 16)

Do you realize what this means??? The "thief in the night" metephor describes the 2nd Coming of Jesus Christ!

-- Luke Juarez (hubertdorm@yahoo.com), December 28, 2004.


You are contrasting the wrong verses Faith. Look again at the world just before Christ returns:

For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left.

Before Christ returns, everyone will be eating and drinking as it's just another day. They are not expecting anything unusual, they are not watching the sky for Jesus. Jesus said, "Behold I come as a thief. Blessed is he who stays awake and keeps his clothes with him, so that he may not go naked and be shamefully exposed.”

Stays awake! Paul said those who sleep, sleep at night...But we are not children of the night, but of the Day, and so this day should not suprise us as a thief (1 Thess 5). But those who aren't awake, those who are naked, will not be expecting the glorious appearing, the second coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. They will be like the people of the days of Noah. But these will all be exposed! They will be shamed because of their nakedness at the site of our God.

-- Luke Juarez (hubertdorm@yahoo.com), December 28, 2004.


Yes Luke--

I agree.

And who is it that they are to be watching for?

Antichrist?

I don't think so.....

-- (faith01@myway.com), December 28, 2004.


Who is who supposed to be watching for?

-- Luke Juarez (hubertdorm@yahoo.com), December 28, 2004.

Huh?

I asked you to tell me just who is it that they--the believers Paul is talking about--who are they suppose to stay awake and watch for?

Before Christ returns, everyone will be eating and drinking as it's just another day. They are not expecting anything unusual, they are not watching the sky for Jesus. Jesus said, "Behold I come as a thief. Blessed is he who stays awake and keeps his clothes with him, so that he may not go naked and be shamefully exposed.”

Doesn't that verse suggest that we are to watch for Jesus Christ?

Yet if the rapture doesn't occur until after the Tribulation period-- shouldn't we first look for the revealing of antichrist and then watch for the nuclear event and shaking heavens?

"But immediately AFTER the tribulation of those days THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS WILL FALL from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.

"And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory.

Do you really think that that sounds like an event that would leave us not expecting anything unusual???

-- (faith01@myway.com), December 28, 2004.


Hey Luke, I just did a Google on "rapture" and while you are pouring the correct meaning into the word there are literally hundreds of websites that use it like Faith uses it, to signify a secret coming of Christ before the 2nd coming.

All I was trying to do was "define the term" so that when you use the word "rapture" you are referring to the parousia referred to in Thess, and NOT a secret meeting.

So, know I most assuredly am not being deceived, but anyone who believes Jesus is coming twice more, IS MOST DEFINITELY BEING DECEIVED!

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), December 28, 2004.


Faith, pleae listen.

Those events ar eunusual, BUT, they happen roughly at the same time as Jesus's second coming, and this is where Luke calls it the Rapture, a term I reserve, as Gail does, for the secret taking of the saints to Heaven before the Tribulaiton, here used as youuse it to mean a spacific period of time, and nto just a time of greattrouble...

See, those things happen AS Jesus comes again, not BEFORE by a large period of time, this is why he is "Coming as a Tehift int he Night", since no oen is expectng the sun to darken and the moon to gived no light, and when these thigns happen Jesus comes agin...

Some call this veiw "Post-Tribulaiton Rapture', however, I maintiaj my Amillinial lable as it best described myself.

In your theory, Jesu comes the seocnd tme, takes away all true Bibel Beleivjgn Christains, and then leaves, then the Anti-Christ comes, the 7 year tribkation and reign of antichrist occures, and hr tribulation saints resist...

Then Jesus comes a third time but tis callked his second coming...

And you think that our vew is inconcistant?

The reasony uo think ours is incocnsitant is because you htink eh cant come as a teof int he night with all the sun darkenign ging on, but obviously he can.

The thef in he night is not meant o convedy its secrecy while the evnt happens, only that no one is expecting it, and when the sun darkens and thr moon gives no light, then, only then, does Jesus appear, and he appears simultanious to these events, thence why it is surprising. Those events, whihc sow the sky darkened, and th weathe mutilated, and all othe signs, happen in the same day as crists's return tot he Earth... thus it is still "As a theof int he Night", but not so secretive while actlsly occuring...

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), December 28, 2004.


Zarove--

The bottom line is that two distinct things are being described here.

The church is snatched away--taken out before the Tribulation/judgement that is coming on the unbelieving world.

If this *rapture* was going to occur after this judgement or Tribulation--then there would be plenty of signs and warnings for us to see--and Jesus could not surprise us at all.

There is no way of knowing when the rapture will occur for sure--but there are no other given prophecies that must take place before the rapture can occur--yet we know that before Christ returns to earth, there are alot of things to yet take place such as the revealing of antichrist and the rebuilding of the Temple.

I don't consider the rapture to be Jesus' literal second coming to the earth as described in Revelation. Jesus doesn't really have to come here to rapture us out. He will be calling us up in the air to meet Him there.

The translation and Rapture of the church is a MYSTERY doctrine, 1 Cor 15:51 & 52. The Greek word MUSTERION was a secret society word meaning a teaching that only the insiders know, but the outsiders can't know.) It must have galled the secret societies of Jesus day for their word "musterion" to be used in Scripture!

The Rapture of the Church is a point in time where the dead in Christ and the living saints will be changed, at the speed of light, at the LAST TRUMP. And the Rapture WILL BE A MYSTERY to the people left behind, as revealed in 2 Thess 2:6-11.

1 Cor 15 and 1 John 3:2 explain that there are many types of bodies, and that all the Church Age believers get one like Jesus resurrection body at the instant the "Rapture" occurs.

The Tribulation and 2nd coming is NOT a MYSTERY doctrine, it’s the opposite! The Tribulation starts with the revealing of the Antichrist and a peace pact negotiated by him between Israel and her Arab neighbors.

The Scriptures that teach about the Second Coming give us a timetable in days, & if you were in the Tribulation, you could count the days from the time the Antichrist takes over the world to the "Abomination of Desolation" in the mid point and from there to the actual 2nd Coming! The actual number of days is declared. (Dan 12:9-10 He replied, "Go your way, Daniel, because the words are closed up and sealed until the time of the end. Many will be purified, made spotless and refined, but the wicked will continue to be wicked. None of the wicked will understand, but those who are wise will understand.)

The Rapture of the church is a MUSTERION, so we must study diligently and depend on God’s Spirit to reveal the truths about it.

-- (faith01@myway.com), December 28, 2004.


Zarove-- The bottom line is that two distinct things are being described here.

{aT LEAST, IN YOUR OPINION. tHIS, i DISAGREE ON.}-Zarove

The church is snatched away--taken out before the Tribulation/judgement that is coming on the unbelieving world.

{Trtibulation doesnt mean Judgement, it means only toruble... and no verse mentions this happening.}-Zarove

If this *rapture* was going to occur after this judgement or Tribulation--

{The problem is you htink the word "Tribulaiton" means "Judgement". Ot only means torybles. There have always been tbulaitons, and not all fo them are judgements.}-Zarove

then there would be plenty of signs and warnings for us to see--and Jesus could not surprise us at all.

{ what if the signs happen the same day as he comes? Besides, he only relaly surprises the unbeleivers and those not paying attention. In the pasage that references the theif int h night, it also mentions one who stood guard,a nd asks us to do so. This is parrallelled int he Parable of the virgins at the wedding, when soem where nto attnetive, and missed the party...to them, form ther perspective, the groom came "As a thef in the night" when they wherent looking, to the others, he came on tme and as schedualed, and they entered the banquet.}-Zarove

There is no way of knowing when the rapture will occur for sure--but there are no other given prophecies that must take place before the rapture can occur--

{There are no prophecies for the Rapture at all, as you undertsand it, only peiced togather verses you used to make a rapture thory pt of patchwork, with no direct passage of acrpoture revealign this.}- Zarove

yet we know that before Christ returns to earth, there are alot of things to yet take place such as the revealing of antichrist and the rebuilding of the Temple.

{And I fully expect these higs cshall happen before the Rapture, indeed, beign Amilinial, I see Christs second comgn as his actal second coming, not his third, and we alreayd saw all this happen...}- Zarove

I don't consider the rapture to be Jesus' literal second coming to the earth as described in Revelation. Jesus doesn't really have to come here to rapture us out. He will be calling us up in the air to meet Him there.

{Nonetheless, you have not shown any clear passage of scirpture to support the seven year tribulation, shoch is preceeded byt he apture of the saints. All you have done is pasted togather disparagent verses to get them to read as you wanted htem to, ignoring ther oriigonal context.

Raptre theory simpley doesnt have any foundation as you describe it.

And todate, you have presented no evidence for the pre-tribulaion rapture in scripture or in the early Chruch Fathers.}-Zarove

The translation and Rapture of the church is a MYSTERY doctrine, 1 Cor 15:51 & 52.

{Faith, this is not refering to the raotre,a nd isnt prphetic even, it refers tot he regeneration fo the spirit and putting away of the flesh.

45. And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. 46. Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. 47. The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. 48. As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. 49. And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. 50. Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. 51. Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52. In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. 55. O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? 56. The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. 57. But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. 58. Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.

This isnt a Mystery doctorine of the Rapture of the Saints, its a Mystery of how we die in order to be Born in the Kindgom spiritual chidlren of God.}-Zarove

The Greek word MUSTERION was a secret society word meaning a teaching that only the insiders know, but the outsiders can't know.) It must have galled the secret societies of Jesus day for their word "musterion" to be used in Scripture!

{Im afraid that you misrepresent what Paulw as syaing in 1 corinthians chapter 15, i which no end times prophecy occurds, and rather the Born again expeirnce is descirbed...Semthign that happens every day...}-Zarove

The Rapture of the Church is a point in time where the dead in Christ and the living saints will be changed, at the speed of light, at the LAST TRUMP. And the Rapture WILL BE A MYSTERY to the people left behind, as revealed in 2 Thess 2:6-11.

{Contxt, Faith, context... This refers to false ptehcer sin the Churhc, NOT End times prophecy...

1. Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2. That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4. Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. 5. Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? 6. And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. 7. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. 8. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 9. Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 10. And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12. That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. 13. But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: 14. Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 15. Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle. 1 Cor 15 and 1 John 3:2 explain that there are many types of bodies, and that all the Church Age believers get one like Jesus resurrection body at the instant the "Rapture" occurs.

Im sorry, btu you are simpley seeing what you want to see here.}- Zarove

The Tribulation and 2nd coming is NOT a MYSTERY doctrine, it’s the opposite!

{"The" tibulation shodil read "Tribulations", chirstiasn have suffered thouhoutht cenuries,a nd each time of torible is a tribulation...

And the Mystery doctorine was ntot he Rapture, the Mystery paul spoke of was the change of a mans heart from the fleshly man of earhtl concerns tot he spiritual man of God's Ocncerns...}-Zarove

The Tribulation starts with the revealing of the Antichrist and a peace pact negotiated by him between Israel and her Arab neighbors.

{Can anyone say "Roadmap to Peace"?}-Zarove

The Scriptures that teach about the Second Coming give us a timetable in days, & if you were in the Tribulation, you could count the days from the time the Antichrist takes over the world to the "Abomination of Desolation" in the mid point and from there to the actual 2nd Coming! The actual number of days is declared. (Dan 12:9-10 He replied, "Go your way, Daniel, because the words are closed up and sealed until the time of the end. Many will be purified, made spotless and refined, but the wicked will continue to be wicked. None of the wicked will understand, but those who are wise will understand.)

{Wasn;t Daniel forseeing the Macabeean revolt? That is what i was always taught, and the abominaiton that Makes desolate is Antiochus epiphanus burning the orah scrolls as he foun them and erectign an Idol in the Temple to Zeus, where he offered Pigs...}-Zarove

The Rapture of the church is a MUSTERION, so we must study diligently and depend on God’s Spirit to reveal the truths about it.

{But the Mystery you presented was the Mystery of regeneration, and not even a Prophecy...}-Zarove

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), December 28, 2004.


I have to disagree with you there, Zarove, those passages from Corinthians dovetail perfectly with the following.

1 Thess 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God, and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air; and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Both the Corinthians passage and this Thessalonians passage refer to 2nd coming. Paul distinctly says "we who are alive and remain," so he's talking about physicality, not spiritual regeneration.

I like what you said about the "roadmap to peace." Israel will make a pact, but with who . . . ? or what? Antiochus Ephiphanes is a prefigure of the Antichrist, like Nero, and Hitler, only they will pale in comparison.

-- Gail (Rothfarms@socket.net), December 28, 2004.


Most likely the Antichrist will be a leader out of a revised Roman Empire--perhaps like the European Union? He will devise a peace treaty between Israel and the Arab nations.

Daniel 7:7-8:

"After that, in my vision at night I looked, and there before me was a fourth beast-terrifying and frightening and very powerful. It had large iron teeth; it crushed and devoured its victims and trampled underfoot whatever was left. It was different from all the former beasts, and it had ten horns.

"While I was thinking about the horns, there before me was another horn, a little one, which came up among them; and three of the first horns were uprooted before it. This horn had eyes like the eyes of a man and a mouth that spoke boastfully."

-- (faith01@myway.com), December 28, 2004.


That's a possibility too, although it doesn't have to be a Roman empire, but Rome-like; i.e., a world dominating power. But if you were going to correlate Babylon (as a fallen away religion, which is your view), Israel would fit the bill, especially with the militant secular Zionist movement. A friend of mine told me (though I haven't checked into it) that the Sanhedrin has "reconvened," and that they are so radical that mainline, Orthodox Jews, want absolutely nothing to do with them!

-- Gail (Rothfarms@socket.net), December 28, 2004.

Hey Luke, I just did a Google on "rapture" and while you are pouring the correct meaning into the word there are literally hundreds of websites that use it like Faith uses it, to signify a secret coming of Christ before the 2nd coming. All I was trying to do was "define the term" so that when you use the word "rapture" you are referring to the parousia referred to in Thess, and NOT a secret meeting. - Gail

Yeppers, right on! I didn't realize you were soley meaning Faith's definition of it.

-- Luke Juarez (hubertdorm@yahoo.com), December 28, 2004.


It isn't I who says that the rapture is a mystery or secret--it is the Scriptures themselves.

1 Cor 15:51-52:

I tell you a mystery(Musterion): We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed– in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.

The Greek word Musterion was a secret society word meaning a teaching that only the insiders know, but the outsiders can't know.

-- (faith01@myway.com), December 28, 2004.


This is referring, though, to the parousia; i.e., 2nd coming, which is when we will receive our new and improved bodies extraordinaire!

-- Gail (Rothfarms@socket.net), December 28, 2004.

That is not His Second Advent, Gail. It may be part of His return, but it is quiet and secret, unlike when He rides in on the clouds...

This is a picture of His Second Coming/Advent--when he returns to conquere the nations and rule the earth for a thousand years:

Rev 19:11-16

I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and makes war. His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns. He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself. He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God. The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean. Out of his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. “He will rule them with an iron scepter.” He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty. On his robe and on his thigh he has this name written:

KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.

Notice that we are with Him? The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean.

I think that this is only possible because He snatched us-up to Himself to be forever with Him beforehand.

-- (faith01@myway.com), December 28, 2004.


"The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean."

There are armies of believers in heaven NOW, Faith, that will accompany Him when they come to gather the "earthlings" which correlates perfectly with Christ's words in Matthew 24 and the Corin passages and the Thessalonian passages.

I just do not see any problem at all relating all of this to the parousia. You have mentioned before that you have a problem with the "peace and safety" aspect when there is abject horror surrounding them. I don't have a problem at all with that, because that is just the way the world is. Jesus Himself even likens the world to the days of Noah, "where they will be eating and drinking, giving in marriage," etc. He tells us, though, not to be like the world, but to expect His coming at any moment, to be ready.

I know you probably have already provided this, but it's probably lost in one of these threads, so bare with me as I ask again, "What specific scripture verse do you have that you think relates to the "secret gathering".

Gail

-- Gail (Rothfarms@socket.net), December 28, 2004.


There are armies of believers in heaven NOW, Faith, that will accompany Him when they come to gather the "earthlings" which correlates perfectly with Christ's words in Matthew 24 and the Corin passages and the Thessalonian passages.

I don't think so Gail, because the Bible is clear that we all receive our resurrected bodies at the rapture--first the dead in Christ rise and then those alive at the time will join the rest of the church in the air.

Those who have passsed for now are with Christ spiritually. They do not have their ressurected bodies yet. Therefore they cannot be riding with Christ unless the rapture has occurred--in which case--we would also be there.

We come with Jesus when He collects the Tribulation saints referenced in Matt 24...and then we sit also in judgement with those Tribulation saints.

Revelation 20:4

I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge (the church). And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God (Tribulation saints). They had not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received his mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

1 Cor. 15:51-52 speak of the secret (Musterion) snatching away .

-- (faith01@myway.com), December 28, 2004.


I did it again--italics off

-- (faith01@myway.com), December 28, 2004.

Its easy to do, we need functiosn like EZ Board... but no matter...

Anyway, Faith...

The torible is htis, yo have not shown either writings form the Early cruch Fathers that show beleif in the Rapture, neither have you shown actual scriptural supprot. ( The "Its a Mystery doctorne" refered to our new bodies, NOT to the rpautre of the Saints.)

Stiill waiting.

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), December 28, 2004.


But I see the resurrection as the rapture of the saints. The Scripture says that the dead in Christ are raised first and then those alive in Christ meet them in the air to be forever with Him. This is a picture of a sudden moment without warning when the church is taken from the earth and given their resurrected bodies and then we are with Christ..and not here on the earth anymore.

You need to remember, Zarove, that just because you disgree with the passages I have provided--does not mean that I have not provided Scripture in support of my beliefs.

These positions about the rapture have been argued since the time of the early church and I don't think we are going to come to any sure conclusions. The truth is that I can see support for almost every position I have read about.

All I can do is follow my heart and hope that the Holy Spirit is leading me in truth. We all may need to make changes and adjustments as revelation comes to us.

But for you to demand that I am wrong simply because you say so--is really very pompous of you. Perhaps you are wrong?

-- (faith01@myway.com), December 28, 2004.


Im sorry faith, btuthe early Chruch Fathers dd not hold to the Pre=Triblation Rapture theory, and no one held his vewi until 1830.

Here is a good article for you to read.

http://www.reformedonline.com/view/reformedonline/rapture.htm

It is odd to me to think that this great mystery doctirin wa sunknown until 1830, ralk aboitu Mysterioys!

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), December 28, 2004.


Alaso, the bibel consuils aaisnt followign oens own heart, for it decieves. Be carufl in thy studies.

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), December 28, 2004.

I think that you are wrong about the early church not recognizing what the Scriptures reveal about the rapture--Zarove.

There are plenty of writings that show that some did indeed see it.

But revelation is slow--and in truth, we sit on the shoulders of biblical history and have the best perspective so far. For example-- we have seen the fulfillment of the Scripture in Ezekeil that prophesied the regathering of the Jews back to Israel starting in 1948. So for us--the Tribulation period known as Jacob's Trouble, makes sense. The early church could not have seen this as easily.

Also--the heart does not deceive when it is indwelt by the Holy Spirit. I just need to be still and listen. Things don't always come to us in our time. In God's time--He teaches us as He wills. Sometimes we need to go through some difficulties in order to better understand the truth.

I admit that I haven't got the endtimes thing all figured out yet. Maybe I never will and I wonder if it really matters unto salvation anyway? I just know that I don't believe that God will subject His church to a wrath that only the unbelievers are deserving of....

....and so I will watch for Jesus--not the antichrist.

-- (faith01@myway.com), December 28, 2004.


I think that you are wrong about the early church not recognizing what the Scriptures reveal about the rapture--Zarove.

Then, do show me where the early Chruch Fathers mention th Rapture. The quotes you offer refer to things other than the rmeoval of the Hcurhc prior ot the great Tribulaiton.

Likewise, your interpretaiton of scurpturs reveal only your ability to reguretate others aruments for the rapture by spicing togather variosu nonrelated verses.

did you even read my article I posted?

There are plenty of writings that show that some did indeed see it.

Then do share htem, if you pelase. compelte douments wouidl be prefered so context cna be read...

But een the oens you hsowed alreayd reveal, even minus context, tat they refer not to thee rapture, but other things.

But revelation is slow--and in truth, we sit on the shoulders of biblical history and have the best perspective so far.

This dosnt relate to my queatsikn though, show an early Father who sbeleived in the Rapture. Likewise, show clear scrptural verses...

For example-- we have seen the fulfillment of the Scripture in Ezekeil that prophesied the regathering of the Jews back to Israel starting in 1948.

Even though I beelive Israel becomign a naiton in 1948 was fulfllment of Porphecy, ezikeil Porphecied this before the Bbaylonian excile, and is Prophecy was fulfuled at the retun from this excile, not in 1948, but 3000 years before...

So for us--the Tribulation period known as Jacob's Trouble, makes sense. The early church could not have seen this as easily.

After 70 AD there was no israel to speak of... why col they see htis?

besides, this neither shows early fathers acceptin he rapture theory, nor verses form scurpture that prove it.

Also--the heart does not deceive when it is indwelt by the Holy Spirit.

Ah but if this where ture... sadly, the Holy psirit dosnt deceive, bu the heart of man is deception after deception...No matter who dwells there.

I just need to be still and listen.

But ho do you knwo ths coems form the Holy psirit, and not just your own heart...or aworse, others teacign you this and you feelin that its right, becaus you want to beleive them, for emotional rasons, and mistake this for thr Holy spirit.

Surpey you see why I cannot trust merley your felelings, wih coincide with dis[nsaitonal. pre tribulaton rapture theory taught in most Fundamntal Protestant chruhces in the USA, bu that wa sunheard of till 1830.

Things don't always come to us in our time. In God's time--He teaches us as He wills. Sometimes we need to go through some difficulties in order to better understand the truth.

This is true., but never listen to your own heart if it contradicts reason, and facts, and the spirit of God. asumign thi is of God itsself is irresponcible.

I admit that I haven't got the endtimes thing all figured out yet.

Neither have I, but I do reject rapture thery...

Maybe I never will and I wonder if it really matters unto salvation anyway?

Its nto a slavaiton Issue, btu this si a discussion board and its a fun topic.

I just know that I don't believe that God will subject His church to a wrath that only the unbelievers are deserving of....

Yet he did already. Remember the orman persecution?

why shojdk we not experience this?

Of coruse you refer tot he seven years in the Rapture theory, that themselves is debated, and nto acepted by all.

....and so I will watch for Jesus--not the antichrist.

I woidl suggest at leats both.

After all, you may be wroing.

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), December 28, 2004.


Faith, Paul gave the appearance of the AntiChrist as a signal to his readers that the Day of the Lord would come THEREAFTER. So if Paul gave that signal to the Church at Thessalonians, wouldn't it behoove us to pay attention to that as well?

Secondly, as to the wrath thing, this is what I "think." I believe that times will wax worse and worse, there will be an escalation of sin, lawlessness, lovelessness, persecutions will increase as they are already, but when the climax comes Christ will come SIMULTANEOUSLY, as someone had mentioned earlier. But we (the Church) have much to suffer before we reach THAT climax.

And contrary to the Left Behind series, we will be here when the antiChrist is revealed. Paul says so. If Paul had known about a rapture (secret taking away before the 2nd coming, or Day of the Lord), he surely would have advised the Thessalonians in his letters, particularly since they were written primarily to calm the anxieties of these folks in this regard.

You are wise to admit you don't have all the answers. My great concern is that the devotees of the Left Behind series, if they are wrong, (which I believe they are), will be caught "off guard" and lose their faith because they were lulled into a false sense of security.

Gail

BTW, I did a check on "wrath" in my Strong's. There are several different kinds of wrath. One is far greater than the other. The wrath used in your quote "we aren't appointed in wrath" has the "softer" meaning, while the ones in Revelation, God is REALLY REALLY REALLY angry, fierce, etc. Anyway, they are two totally different words in the Greek.

-- Gail (Rothfarms@socket.net), December 28, 2004.


Oh, here's another thing, if Paul had known about the rapture, as you define it Faith, then he would not have given the expletive about the AntiChrist since, according to the Dispen. view, they wouldn't be there to see him anyway.

-- Gail (Rothfarms@socket.net), December 28, 2004.

All I can say Zarove is that I think your biblical understanding is seriously lacking.

You are simply sharing your opinion and declaring it as fact.

You say:

But een the oens you hsowed alreayd reveal, even minus context, tat they refer not to thee rapture, but other things.

You do realize that this is your opinion, right?

And this:

Even though I beelive Israel becomign a naiton in 1948 was fulfllment of Porphecy, ezikeil Porphecied this before the Bbaylonian excile, and is Prophecy was fulfuled at the retun from this excile, not in 1948, but 3000 years before...

This is your theology Zarove--and In my opinion, is way off the mark. Ezekeil prophesied the regather of the Jew right down to the exact date--which, of course, could not be seen until after-the-fact.

But ho do you knwo ths coems form the Holy psirit, and not just your own heart...or aworse, others teacign you this and you feelin that its right, becaus you want to beleive them, for emotional rasons, and mistake this for thr Holy spirit.

Well Zarove--for one thing, the Bible tells us that when we have the Holy Spirit in us and we are truly His--and we wear the Word of God as our armour [of God]--we can resist all the flaming arrows of the evil one.

-- (faith01@myway.com), December 28, 2004.


Gail..,

I think that the Tribulation period--the seven years of Jacob's trouble is a judgement from God.

It is different that the trouble and tribulation that we as Christians suffer at the hands of the wicked. Yes I agree that things in this life will worsen as far as Christian persecution goes. It already has.

But where in the Scriptures do we read that the church will suffer at the hand of God?

Even Clement said:

Chapter XXVIII - God Sees All Things: Therefore Let Us Avoid Transgression.

Since then all things are seen and heard [by God], let us fear Him, and forsake those wicked works which proceed from evil desires; so that, through His mercy, we may be protected from the judgments to come.

Do you really see the Church squaring off with the Antichrist in the Tribulation Period? Does the Bible really reveal this idea?

-- (faith01@myway.com), December 28, 2004.


All I can say Zarove is that I think your biblical understanding is seriously lacking.

{I think that you need to re-evaluate that posiito. I do know scrpture well, as is evidenced on this baord. Beses, I refeed tot he early Cruch Fathers in toyr objecitons.}-Zarove

You are simply sharing your opinion and declaring it as fact.

{No, Im sharign facts as acts, hte verses form scpture you quote are clealry not meant to be taken corporatley togather as a seemless whole, and are spliced togather to form the rapture theory, and to date you have preented no clear verse on the rapture.

Likewise, your quotes form the Fathers of the HCurhc are not relaly about the Rapture.

And rapture theory existed since 1830, not the forts century...}- Zarove

You say:

But een the oens you hsowed alreayd reveal, even minus context, tat they refer not to thee rapture, but other things.

You do realize that this is your opinion, right?

{Harldy pinion. Do I relaly need to post links to each and every Article frm the early chruch Fathers you rfeenced to show you how plainly innacicrate the presentakton fo these quotes as Pre-Trib Rapture are?

A coulel arnet en about the end of the world...}-Zarove

And this:

Even though I beelive Israel becomign a naiton in 1948 was fulfllment of Porphecy, ezikeil Porphecied this before the Bbaylonian excile, and is Prophecy was fulfuled at the retun from this excile, not in 1948, but 3000 years before...

This is your theology Zarove--and In my opinion, is way off the mark.

{So, even thoug ezikeil lived before the Captivity, and Israel efectivley ceaed to exist, he want referign to the re-establishment afte the captivity, but instead to osme distabt future date, 1948 as we reckon time, so as ti fit raptur theory?

Some on, this sint even my opinion soley, its pretty danged clear that he woidl have mentioned a SECOND dissolution of Israel and a seocnd reformaion of the naiton-Sttae,woidltn he?

Do you think Israel's re-estalbishment was not forseen by the prphets at the end of the bBaylonian cpaitvity, a mere 70 years int he future, but the re-estalbishment in 1948 was?}-Zarove

Ezekeil prophesied the regather of the Jew right down to the exact date--which, of course, could not be seen until after-the-fact.

{Uhm, exact date? Im sorry, but this isnt supproted. And almost all scolards agree he refered tot he return of the Jews to Israel after babylonain Boindage...

Indeed, why did he NOT forsee this retiurn, and ksip it entirely, afrter predicting Bbayloin woudl overrun them, only to predict the re0estLBISHMENT OF iSRAEL AFTER A SECOND DISPERSION?>}-Zarove

But ho do you knwo ths coems form the Holy psirit, and not just your own heart...or aworse, others teacign you this and you feelin that its right, becaus you want to beleive them, for emotional rasons, and mistake this for thr Holy spirit.

Well Zarove--for one thing, the Bible tells us that when we have the Holy Spirit in us and we are truly His--and we wear the Word of God as our armour [of God]--we can resist all the flaming arrows of the evil one.

{But does it say we ar einfallable? And incapabel of error in interpretign scirpoture?

I asked hwo you cna know this is of the Holy spirit, not if or saved or not.}-Zarove

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), December 28, 2004.


This is an interesting thought..

If we (the church) will be married after the rapture (the resurrection) and yet when Jesus returns at His second Coming-- he returns from the marriage supper of the lamb--how can these be one in the same event?

When Jesus returns to earth at the second coming, He will return from a wedding (Luke 12:35-36)

“Be dressed ready for service and keep your lamps burning, like men waiting for their master to return from a wedding banquet, so that when he comes and knocks they can immediately open the door for him..

Revelation 19:6-9

Then I heard what sounded like a great multitude, like the roar of rushing waters and like loud peals of thunder, shouting: “Hallelujah!

For our Lord God Almighty reigns. Let us rejoice and be glad and give him glory! For the wedding of the Lamb has come, and his bride has made herself ready. Fine linen, bright and clean, was given her to wear.” (Fine linen stands for the righteous acts of the saints.)

Then the angel said to me, “Write: ‘Blessed are those who are invited to the wedding supper of the Lamb!’ ” And he added, “These are the true words of God.”

Rev. 19:14

The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean.

Obviously the church is married at some point between its ressurrection and His second coming--right? If the church is already married at His second coming, when and how did this take place?

-- (faith01@myway.com), December 28, 2004.


The chuc is alreayd Mried to christ, an called the Bride of christ...Happened at Pentacost.

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.VOM), December 28, 2004.

Can you show Scripture of the church marrying Christ at Pentecost?

It seems we are waiting for him as a beautifully prepared Bride--not wife. And Revelation 19:6-9 says:

Then I heard what sounded like a great multitude, like the roar of rushing waters and like loud peals of thunder, shouting: “Hallelujah!

For our Lord God Almighty reigns. Let us rejoice and be glad and give him glory! For the wedding of the Lamb has come, and his bride has made herself ready. Fine linen, bright and clean, was given her to wear.”

As far as I can see--the church is only promised marriage as of yet-- we anxiously await His return for us, so that the wedding can take place.

-- (faith01@myway.com), December 28, 2004.


I know that's what you believe, Faith, because you think that you have been gifted with the spiritual gift of "rightly dividing the word of God." That is just a little too self-serving (not to mention arrogant) for me. That means whatever you don't like can go in the "recycle bin" to be used for some other category in response to whatever whim tickles your fancy, which is precisely the way that you go about biblical debate. There is no consistency in your logic. You actually believe that you have been given the "key to unlock the mystery." Good grief!

Matthew 10:16: Behold, I send you out as sheep in the midst of wolves; therefore be shrewd as serpents, and innocent as doves. But beware of men; for they will deliver you up to the courts, and scourge you in their synagogues, and you shall even be brought before governors and kings for My sake, as a testimony to them and to the Gentiles.

Matthew 24:9: Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations on account of my name.

Luke 21:10 Then he continued by saying to them, "nation will rise against nation, and kingdom and against kingdom, and there will be great earthquakes, and in various places plagues and famines; and there will be terros and great signs from heave. But before all these things, they will lay their hands on you and will persecute you, delivering you to the synagogues and prisons, bring you before kings and governors for My name's sake.

(Then he advises those in Judea to flee to the mountains, etc. etc.)

Luke 15:18 If the world hates you, you know that it has hated Me before it hated you. If you were of the world, the world would love its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you. Remember the word that I said to you, "A slave is not greater than his master. If they persecute Me, they will also persecute you" . . .

Acts: 14:22 "Through many tribulations we must enter the kingdom of God.

Romans 5:3 And not only this, but we also exult in our tribulations, knowing that tribulation brings about perseverance;

And there are countless other scriptures concerning sufferings and afflications.

*****

It is your contention that all of Christ's words in all of His gospels concerning the endtimes were directed at the Jews.

So since you believe that, wouldn't it be safe to assume that all of Christ's words in all of the gospels were directed only to the Jews? Because like you said, the Church had been born yet.

Gail

-- Gail (Rothfarms@socket.net), December 28, 2004.


I forgot to mention that the quote you used from Clement is conditional, is it not? Which, BTW, is exactly what the Church teaches today; that repentence and living in holiness can mitigate against the sufferings to come! "If not for the sake of the Elect, those days will be shortened"

-- Gail (Rothfarms@socket.net), December 28, 2004.

Still Gail--

You didn't address my point, which is that there is a difference between the trials and tribulations we suffer at the hands of the wicked--which we are to expect.., and the idea that we would suffer through God's judgement against unbelievers.

Is the church really to suffer at Jesus' hand?

The time of Jacob's Trouble is a specific judgement against the wicked-- from God. *****************

We are commanded by God to *rightly* discern the Scriptures. So to accuse me of being arrogant is confusing to me.

And this:

It is your contention that all of Christ's words in all of His gospels concerning the endtimes were directed at the Jews.

Not at all--these are teachings preserved for the future church--no doubt.

But when Jesus speaks to the Jews directly--He is speaking to the Jews. When He speaks about the Jews--He is speaking about the Jews.

It's interseting that you don't find it odd that Jesus would warn the church about those endtimes saying things like, "You better hope that this judgement doesn't fall on the Sabbath."

Why would that matter to a Christian who is not under the Law?

-- (faith01@myway.com), December 28, 2004.


Actually, Faith, the Bible does have the Church squaring off with the enemy in Revelations. But it will do no good to cite that to you because you have divided those scriptures (or excluded them) and put them in the "Jews" category.

You said above: "Not at all--these are teachings preserved for the future church--no doubt." What teachings, and which church? The whole church or just the "tribulation church."

The tribulation began when Christ ascended to heaven and will get increasingly worse. We agree Christ will come again? Praise God! We have showed you every end-time scripture we can find, and you attribute them all to the Day of the Lord, or what we call the 2nd coming, and you state that they relate to the tribulation saints. You have no scripture at all that I am aware of that succinctly teaches a "secret gathering" before the 2nd coming. It is all pure conjecture.

Dividing the scripture into categories is not what scripture means by rightly dividing or "discerning, understanding" the word of truth. That's what I don't like about dispensationalism; the audacity to chop God's word up according to some preconceived escatological construct and then FORCE it upon the Word of God. And Dispensationalists are SUPREMELY sure that they are favored in "rightly dividing the word of truth," as you have intimated about yourself on numerous occasions on this forum.

Faith, there is no sense in our continuing this discussion, or any discussion on any Biblical matter because you will simply recategorize any scripture we show you that doesn't support your notion. That has been your method of debate since I have known you. You have a very good grasp of scripture, but you read into it whatever you want it to mean. Reading between the lines is not necessary and it is very dangerous!

I must get to bed, so good night and God Bless,

Gail

-- Gail (Rothfarms@socket.net), December 29, 2004.


This is a great discussion and seems like a good place to ask this question. It could just as well go in the Dispensationalism thread though.

If the formation of Israel in 1948 is a fulfillment of Ezekial, how do the sacrifices in the temple described in Ezekial fit in with this idea? Are they also saying that the old burnt offerings and Jewish priesthood will return?

I understand that Dispensationalists agree that Christ's sacrifice was a fulfillment of the Old Testament. Maybe I'm looking at the wrong chapter of Ezekial.

-- Andy S ("ask3332004@yahoo.com"), December 29, 2004.


Hi Andy--

I think that the old sacrificial system will indeed return, after the church has been removed.

We can see in the endtime prophecy of Daniel, that the sacrifices were abolished. This indicates that they were re-established-- otherwise, how could they be abolished?

The End Times 1 "At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise. There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people-everyone whose name is found written in the book-will be delivered. 2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt. 3 Those who are wise [a] will shine like the brightness of the heavens, and those who lead many to righteousness, like the stars for ever and ever. 4 But you, Daniel, close up and seal the words of the scroll until the time of the end. Many will go here and there to increase knowledge."

Daniel 12:

5 Then I, Daniel, looked, and there before me stood two others, one on this bank of the river and one on the opposite bank. 6 One of them said to the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, "How long will it be before these astonishing things are fulfilled?"

7 The man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, lifted his right hand and his left hand toward heaven, and I heard him swear by him who lives forever, saying, "It will be for a time, times and half a time. When the power of the holy people has been finally broken, all these things will be completed."

8 I heard, but I did not understand. So I asked, "My lord, what will the outcome of all this be?"

9 He replied, "Go your way, Daniel, because the words are closed up and sealed until the time of the end. 10 Many will be purified, made spotless and refined, but the wicked will continue to be wicked. None of the wicked will understand, but those who are wise will understand.

11 "From the time that the daily sacrifice is abolished and the abomination that causes desolation is set up, there will be 1,290 days. 12 Blessed is the one who waits for and reaches the end of the 1,335 days.

13 "As for you, go your way till the end. You will rest, and then at the end of the days you will rise to receive your allotted inheritance."

-- (faith01@myway.com), December 29, 2004.


Do you beelive also that the retirn form excile to Babylon and the re- establushment of Israel in abiut 800 BC was also fortold?

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), December 29, 2004.

I think that the old sacrificial system will indeed return, after the church has been removed. - Faith

How does that square up with Hebrews chapters 9 and 10?

-- Andy S ("ask3332004@yahoo.com"), December 29, 2004.


Hi Andy, Hebrews was written for Christians. Israel has rejected Christ, and therefore the Book of Hebrews means absolutely nothing to them.

Gail

-- Gail (Rothfarms@socket.net), December 29, 2004.


Here's the article I mentioned somewhere concerning the reconvening of the Sanhedrin (after 1,600) years. This article is found here http://www.israelnationalnews.com/news.php3?id=70349

Sanhedrin Launched In Tiberias 12:42 Oct 14, '04 / 29 Tishrei 5765

A unique ceremony - probably only the 2nd of its kind in the past 1,600 years - took place in Tiberias today: The launching of a Sanhedrin, the highest Jewish-legal tribunal in the Land of Israel.

A unique ceremony - probably only the second of its kind in the past 1,600 years - is taking place in Tiberias today: The launching of a Sanhedrin, the highest Jewish-legal tribunal in the Land of Israel.

The Sanhedrin, a religious assembly that convened in one of the Holy Temple chambers in Jerusalem, comprised 71 sages and existed during the Tannaitic period, from several decades before the Common Era until roughly 425 C.E. Details of today's ceremony are still sketchy, but the organizers' announced their intention to convene 71 rabbis who have received special rabbinic ordination as specified by Maimonides.

An attempt to reconvene the Sanhedrin was made several centuries ago in Tzfat. The body in fact ordained such greats as Rabbi Yosef Karo, the author of the classic Jewish Law code Shulhan Arukh. However, the opposition of other leading rabbis soon forced the end of the endeavor.

One of the leaders of today's attempt to revive the Sanhedrin is Rabbi Yeshai Ba'avad of Beit El. He said that the 71 rabbis "from across the spectrum received the special ordination, in accordance with Maimonides' rulings, over the past several months." Rabbi Ba'avad explained that the membership of the new body is not permanent: "What is much more crucial is the establishment of this body. Those who are members of it today will not necessarily be its members tomorrow. But the goal is to have one rabbinic body in Jerusalem that will convene monthly and issue rulings on central issues. This is the need of the generation and of the hour."

Rabbi Yisrael Ariel, who heads the Temple institute in Jerusalem, is one of the participating rabbis. He told Arutz-7 today, "Whether this will be the actual Sanhedrin that we await, is a question of time - just like the establishment of the State; we rejoiced in it, but we are still awaiting something much more ideal. It's a process. Today's ceremony is really the continuation of the renewal of the Ordination process in Israel, which we marked several months ago. Our Talmudic Sages describe the ten stages of exile of the Sanhedrin from Jerusalem to other locations, until it ended in Tiberias - and this is the place where it was foretold that it would be renewed, and from here it will be relocated to Jerusalem."

Rabbi Ariel said that the rabbis there included many from the entire spectrum: "Hareidi, religious-Zionist, Sephardi, Ashkenazi, hassidi, and many others - such as Rabbi Yoel Schwartz, Rabbi Adin Shteinzaltz, and many others... We can't expect a great consensus; that's not how things work here. But sometimes that's how the process goes, from the bottom up."

-- Gail (Rothfarms@socket.net), December 29, 2004.


Here's an article that dovetails nicely with the above concerning the identity of the "First Babylon." Pretty interesting.

http://www.eschatology.org/articles/revelation/babylon.htm

-- Gail (Rothfarms@socket.net), December 29, 2004.


Gail,

Secret Rapture? I thought we've gone over this. I'm pretty sure Faith01 doesn't believe in a secret rapture, nor do I. This is just another anti-protestant misconception.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), December 29, 2004.


I am not sure what's up with the secret thing. It is written in the Scriptures and it is written to be a mystery. It is described as a sudden and quiet event--compred to when jesus comes storming in on the clouds with his army.., but I think it's only a secret to those who aren't listening or paying attention.

-- (faith01@myway.com), December 29, 2004.

David, I believe that Christ will come one more time, the parousia, or 2nd coming. Faith believes that Christ will come before the 2nd coming for a "secret" gathering away, which is what is being taught in many protestant circles.

-- Gail (Rothfarms@socket.net), December 29, 2004.

That is what the Scriptures reveal Gail., and I find it hard to believe that you think that Jesus would put His own body in the path of God's wrath--which is set against the Jewish people/unbelievers.

Jesus' second coming has many stages...

-- (faith01@myway.com), December 29, 2004.


Well that's what Jesus said, and that's what Paul says, Faith. The word "Elect" is used throughout scripture referring to God's people PERIOD; not two different classes, as you suggest. If you have a scriptural reason to divide the Elect, please share it. I'm all ears.

I have already stated that I believe that the parousia will occur simultaneously with the final climax, or the utter calamity that will occur on the last day. So I guess that I would have to say that I agree with you in that regard. HOWEVER, I don't believe in a literal 7 year tribulation; I believe 7 is symbolic for PERFECT COMPLETION OF THE AGE; and I don't believe in a "secret taking away," as that is scripturally baseless. And I believe that the anti-Christ will be revealed before Christ's return per Paul.

I might add, that I do not consider myself to be in any "camp," but these are my beliefs based on my own independent study; which is cursory I admit. And I bet that everyone is right in some areas and everyone is wrong in some areas. I guess you could say I believe in the "pan" theory; "it'll all pan out in the end."

I might add, that Christ's words "the time will be shortened for the sake of the elect," are words we can ALL hang our hats on!

Gail

BTW, did you read that article I posted about the identity of the "First Babylon"" I had never heard that before, and I just thought you would find it interesting. It does seem to be completely scriptural.

-- Gail (Rothfarms@socket.net), December 29, 2004.


Hi Andy, Hebrews was written for Christians. Israel has rejected Christ, and therefore the Book of Hebrews means absolutely nothing to them. - Gail

Thanks Gail.

What prompted my question was the refernce to Ezekial as prophecy that was fulfilled by the creation of Israel in 1948. Burnt offerings and the Jewish priesthood are descibed in the temple. If one takes this as a literal description of a theocratic Israel, then it indicates that the old sacrifices will occur again as they did before the coming of Jesus. In Hebrews chapters 9 and 10, Paul says that Jesus is the eternal high priest of teh New Covenant and that his sacrifice was once and for all. For example:

Hebrews 9:25-28

25 Nor did he enter heaven to offer himself again and again, the way the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood that is not his own. 26 Then Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But now he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself. 27 Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment, 28 so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.

I wonder how Dispensationalists reconcile a belief that the old sacrificial system will be reinstituted in the new Israel with Jesus' once and for all sacrifice that Christians believe in. Maybe I'm not understanding what Dispensationlists believe regarding Ezekial.

-- Andy S ("ask3332004@yahoo.com"), December 30, 2004.


BTW Gail, that article from eschatology.org regarding the First Babylon makes a strong case for Jerusalem, in my opinion. It also seems to match well with Jesus' words in the Gospels.

-- Andy S ("ask3332004@yahoo.com"), December 30, 2004.

You are insane.

-- M.E. (goy_bot@yahoo.com), December 30, 2004.

M.E., Well, we are all a little insane from time to time, M.E. So what's your point?

Hey Andy, I'm glad you read that article. I thought about that all night. I got out Matthew 24 and read it with the the destruction of Jerusalem in mind. Then I got my commentary out on Matthew 24. What the temple represents is fascinating, and to thing that it was DESTROYED; the old covenant demolished in the likeness of the earthly temple, making way for the new covenant.

Also, interestingly, the word "parousia" is used 24 times in the N.T.!!

-- Gail (Rothfarms@socket.net), December 30, 2004.


Yes, it flows very well with the historical destruction of Jerusalem by the pagan Roman Empire. I can understand why the early Christians fully expected Christ to come again at any second.

-- Andy S ("ask3332004@yahoo.com"), December 30, 2004.

Hi Andy.,

I haven't had time to answer you about Hebrews. My computer guy has been here for two days networking all our computers.

Anyway..,

The New Covenant is in Jesus Christ.

The Tribulation period is a judgement against Israel the unbelieving Jews. Right now the Jewish people have no method of getting their sins forgiven. They don't have Jesus and their Temple for sacrifice does not exist.

God does finish what he started, and He has unfinished business with the Jewish nation of Israel.

I also wonder this:

When Peter writes from Babylon in the Scriptures., is he writing from Rome, like your Catholic encyclopedia says--or is he writing from Jerusalem?

-- (faith01@myway.com), December 30, 2004.


Zarove--

In answer to this question Do you beelive also that the retirn form excile to Babylon and the re- establushment of Israel in abiut 800 BC was also fortold?

I asked a friend who is a prophecy expert. These are the verses he refered me to:

Israel's FIRST return from Babylon is foretold in Scripture. *Isaiah 11:11* definitely foretells of two returns, requiring two dispersions.

In that day the Lord will reach out his hand a second time to reclaim the remnant that is left of his people from Assyria, from Lower Egypt, from Upper Egypt, [b] from Cush, [c] from Elam, from Babylonia, [d] from Hamath and from the islands of the sea.

The one currently going on is the second one. *Joel 3:1-2* discusses the return from the second one as a sign of the end of the age.

1 "In those days and at that time, when I restore the fortunes of Judah and Jerusalem,

2 I will gather all nations

and bring them down to the Valley of Jehoshaphat. [a]

There I will enter into judgment against them

concerning my inheritance, my people Israel,

for they scattered my people among the nations

and divided up my land.

Although vague, I have always considered that *Lev 26:23-26* describes the first dispersal and *Lev 26:32-39* describes the second.

Many prophecies have two applications, and this is one instance of that-particularly in *Deut 28:49-68.

The LORD will bring a nation against you from far away, from the ends of the earth, like an eagle swooping down, a nation whose language you will not understand, 50 a fierce-looking nation without respect for the old or pity for the young. 51 They will devour the young of your livestock and the crops of your land until you are destroyed. They will leave you no grain, new wine or oil, nor any calves of your herds or lambs of your flocks until you are ruined. 52 They will lay siege to all the cities throughout your land until the high fortified walls in which you trust fall down. They will besiege all the cities throughout the land the LORD your God is giving you.

53 Because of the suffering that your enemy will inflict on you during the siege, you will eat the fruit of the womb, the flesh of the sons and daughters the LORD your God has given you. 54 Even the most gentle and sensitive man among you will have no compassion on his own brother or the wife he loves or his surviving children, 55 and he will not give to one of them any of the flesh of his children that he is eating. It will be all he has left because of the suffering your enemy will inflict on you during the siege of all your cities. 56 The most gentle and sensitive woman among you-so sensitive and gentle that she would not venture to touch the ground with the sole of her foot-will begrudge the husband she loves and her own son or daughter 57 the afterbirth from her womb and the children she bears. For she intends to eat them secretly during the siege and in the distress that your enemy will inflict on you in your cities.

58 If you do not carefully follow all the words of this law, which are written in this book, and do not revere this glorious and awesome name-the LORD your God- 59 the LORD will send fearful plagues on you and your descendants, harsh and prolonged disasters, and severe and lingering illnesses. 60 He will bring upon you all the diseases of Egypt that you dreaded, and they will cling to you. 61 The LORD will also bring on you every kind of sickness and disaster not recorded in this Book of the Law, until you are destroyed. 62 You who were as numerous as the stars in the sky will be left but few in number, because you did not obey the LORD your God. 63 Just as it pleased the LORD to make you prosper and increase in number, so it will please him to ruin and destroy you. You will be uprooted from the land you are entering to possess.

64 Then the LORD will scatter you among all nations, from one end of the earth to the other. There you will worship other gods-gods of wood and stone, which neither you nor your fathers have known. 65 Among those nations you will find no repose, no resting place for the sole of your foot. There the LORD will give you an anxious mind, eyes weary with longing, and a despairing heart. 66 You will live in constant suspense, filled with dread both night and day, never sure of your life. 67 In the morning you will say, "If only it were evening!" and in the evening, "If only it were morning!"-because of the terror that will fill your hearts and the sights that your eyes will see. 68 The LORD will send you back in ships to Egypt on a journey I said you should never make again. There you will offer yourselves for sale to your enemies as male and female slaves, but no one will buy you.

I am assuming that you have asked about the first return from Babylon that I have dated to about 536-516 BC. 606 to 586 BC is the time of the first dispersion to Babylon, as I see it.

With reference to the returns..

Jeremiah 29:1-7 definitely speak of the first dispersion to Babylon. Jeremiah 29:14 would seem to apply to the first return and the current, second one too!

Dual prophecies, prophecies that have two fulfillments, are often used in Scripture, and they are difficult to understand. The Lord obviously didn't want Israel to fully understand early on that they would have two dispersions, with the second one being almost 2000 years in duration....

*****************



-- (faith01@myway.com), December 30, 2004.


Zarove-- In answer to this question Do you beelive also that the retirn form excile to Babylon and the re- establushment of Israel in abiut 800 BC was also fortold?

I asked a friend who is a prophecy expert. These are the verses he refered me to:

{Mind if I disagree?}-Zarove

Israel's FIRST return from Babylon is foretold in Scripture. *Isaiah 11:11* definitely foretells of two returns, requiring two dispersions.

{Does it?}

In that day the Lord will reach out his hand a second time to reclaim the remnant that is left of his people from Assyria, from Lower Egypt, from Upper Egypt, [b] from Cush, [c] from Elam, from Babylonia, [d] from Hamath and from the islands of the sea.

{ The whole of Isaiah chapter 11 descpbes the Commign Messanaic Age, fulfilled in the chuch, not a resumaiton of the Nation-Sttae of Israel, whihc is runby untra Zionists and definitely not friendly to gentiles...

Verse 10 of Isiah chapter 11.

And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.

The return of God's princioles is discussed here, not the 1948 retiurn, and it does not mention the "Second return to Israel' after a first return, rather, he is gatherign his peopel for a second time, the irst beign when moses said " Let my peopel go", only now,tis open to all, Gentile and Jew alike. we, the Chruch, fulfill this prophecy.}-Zarove

The one currently going on is the second one. *Joel 3:1-2* discusses the return from the second one as a sign of the end of the age.

{Uhm...Joel tell of the CAPTIVITY of Judah, NOT the return, leas tof all int he verses you refere us to.

Joel 3

1. For, behold, in those days, and in that time, when I shall bring again the captivity of Judah and Jerusalem, 2. I will also gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat, and will plead with them there for my people and for my heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and parted my land.

Inded, no return happens with Joel, who was of Judah. Israel was regathered, after Bbaylon, bt Judah remained dispersed, and still tot his day remaisn dispersed...}-Zarove

1 "In those days and at that time, when I restore the fortunes of Judah and Jerusalem,

2 I will gather all nations

and bring them down to the Valley of Jehoshaphat. [a]

{Read the hwoel verses form aproper translaiton...}-Zarove

There I will enter into judgment against them

concerning my inheritance, my people Israel,

for they scattered my people among the nations

and divided up my land.

{what version are you readinf?}-Zarove

Although vague, I have always considered that *Lev 26:23-26* describes the first dispersal and *Lev 26:32-39* describes the second.

{Leviticus is a book of Law, not Pofrpehcy, and these verses mention punishemnts for laws, not a firts and seond dispersla, follwoed by subseqwunt returns...}-Zarove

Many prophecies have two applications, and this is one instance of that-particularly in *Deut 28:49-68.

{I never beelived in "Duel propehcy" theory... andno eidnec ein scuroture indicates a propehcy woidl be fulflled twice... its a modenr pet heory for theologians, mainly protestnat, to paly with, that I dismiss as it lacks any foundaiton or precedent.}-Zarove

The LORD will bring a nation against you from far away, from the ends of the earth, like an eagle swooping down, a nation whose language you will not understand, 50 a fierce-looking nation without respect for the old or pity for the young. 51 They will devour the young of your livestock and the crops of your land until you are destroyed. They will leave you no grain, new wine or oil, nor any calves of your herds or lambs of your flocks until you are ruined. 52 They will lay siege to all the cities throughout your land until the high fortified walls in which you trust fall down. They will besiege all the cities throughout the land the LORD your God is giving you.

53 Because of the suffering that your enemy will inflict on you during the siege, you will eat the fruit of the womb, the flesh of the sons and daughters the LORD your God has given you. 54 Even the most gentle and sensitive man among you will have no compassion on his own brother or the wife he loves or his surviving children, 55 and he will not give to one of them any of the flesh of his children that he is eating. It will be all he has left because of the suffering your enemy will inflict on you during the siege of all your cities. 56 The most gentle and sensitive woman among you-so sensitive and gentle that she would not venture to touch the ground with the sole of her foot-will begrudge the husband she loves and her own son or daughter 57 the afterbirth from her womb and the children she bears. For she intends to eat them secretly during the siege and in the distress that your enemy will inflict on you in your cities.

58 If you do not carefully follow all the words of this law, which are written in this book, and do not revere this glorious and awesome name-the LORD your God- 59 the LORD will send fearful plagues on you and your descendants, harsh and prolonged disasters, and severe and lingering illnesses. 60 He will bring upon you all the diseases of Egypt that you dreaded, and they will cling to you. 61 The LORD will also bring on you every kind of sickness and disaster not recorded in this Book of the Law, until you are destroyed. 62 You who were as numerous as the stars in the sky will be left but few in number, because you did not obey the LORD your God. 63 Just as it pleased the LORD to make you prosper and increase in number, so it will please him to ruin and destroy you. You will be uprooted from the land you are entering to possess.

64 Then the LORD will scatter you among all nations, from one end of the earth to the other. There you will worship other gods-gods of wood and stone, which neither you nor your fathers have known. 65 Among those nations you will find no repose, no resting place for the sole of your foot. There the LORD will give you an anxious mind, eyes weary with longing, and a despairing heart. 66 You will live in constant suspense, filled with dread both night and day, never sure of your life. 67 In the morning you will say, "If only it were evening!" and in the evening, "If only it were morning!"-because of the terror that will fill your hearts and the sights that your eyes will see. 68 The LORD will send you back in ships to Egypt on a journey I said you should never make again. There you will offer yourselves for sale to your enemies as male and female slaves, but no one will buy you.

{you asume this hapens twice, and this is a duel propehcy. What evidnece do you have htat God intende dit as such?}-Zarove

I am assuming that you have asked about the first return from Babylon that I have dated to about 536-516 BC. 606 to 586 BC is the time of the first dispersion to Babylon, as I see it.

{Archeology is mor eimportant here, so how eiher of us see it is irrlevant to the facts... no hisotiran I kno of dates it then.}-Zarove

With reference to the returns..

Jeremiah 29:1-7 definitely speak of the first dispersion to Babylon. Jeremiah 29:14 would seem to apply to the first return and the current, second one too!

{does it?

14. And I will be found of you, saith the Lord: and I will turn away your captivity, and I will gather you from all the nations, and from all the places whither I have driven you, saith the Lord; and I will bring you again into the place whence I caused you to be carried away captive. 15. Because ye have said, The Lord hath raised us up prophets in Babylon; 16. Know that thus saith the Lord of the king that sitteth upon the throne of David, and of all the people that dwelleth in this city, and of your brethren that are not gone forth with you into captivity;

Seems to referenc eonlyt he Babylonain Capivity to me...folowgn the plain reading.}-Zarove

Dual prophecies, prophecies that have two fulfillments, are often used in Scripture,

{At elats, according to you and other moderners... Im sorry, but no wher does God say " And htis rpehcy shall be fullfilled twice", the duel prophcy theiry is itsself unsupportrd scurpturally, and is a dream theory of peopel whow ant ot reinterpret the Bibel to sut there ends.}-Zarove

and they are difficult to understand.

{Or nonexistant...}-Zarove

The Lord obviously didn't want Israel to fully understand early on that they would have two dispersions,

{Yet he told them of there first? I mean, come on, this was doen to PNISH them, for isobedience, why NOT tell them of theseocnd one?}- Zarove

with the second one being almost 2000 years in duration....

{At leats, fi you beleive in rpature theology and need this to support your veiw, ou just make it a doible prppehcy and move on...}- Zarove

*****************

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), December 30, 2004.


If you say so Zarove--

But you asked for supporting Scripture and I gave it to you.

-- (faith01@myway.com), December 30, 2004.


But your supportign scripture only supports it if you acpet theconcept pf diel Propehcy.

Can you show me where int eh Bible God reveals that a propehcy will be fulfulled twice? Or is this only a man made concept added to support the rapturte?

If it is a man made concept, there is no gurentee hat its right, elast of all if the secnd fulfillment of the prophecy just happens to be conveneintly to shopw propehtic evidence for a pet theory, liek the rapture.

The verses you shpow are about the re-establishment after Babylon.

Everyone agrees there. I do not see any evidence for this eign duel prophecy, other than the fact hta it fits the rapue theory, wich makes it circular logic. ( We knwo the rapture is prpehcied thereofre htis must be a duel propejcy, and we knwo tis a duel prophecy bease it predicts the rapture...)

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), December 31, 2004.


Well Zarove--

What about the coming of Messiah?

It is a two-fold prophecy.., where Christ first comes as a suffering servant., and then He comes as Savior. Yet the Jews miss this dualism and are left still waiting for Messiah to come for the first time because they didn't get that He would first come as a suffering servant.., and then many generations later--as their night in shining armor.

Because they missed this two-fold prophecy, they'll most likely confuse the coming of antichrist as their long awaited Messiah. Scary things can happen when you don't *see* what is being revealed....

-- (faith01@myway.com), December 31, 2004.


Well Zarove--

Yes faith?

What about the coming of Messiah?

what of it? It is a two-fold prophecy.., where Christ first comes as a suffering servant., and then He comes as Savior.

Im sory, but no. He came as both saviour and sufferign servant int he irts advent. The new Prophjecy is that he shall come again, this is recorded inthe New Yestament. No art of the prophecy states he will come twice, nor is this a duel propehcy. and the Mesiah Prophecies, with the excetion of a few, are alreayd fulfilled.

Yet the Jews miss this dualism and are left still waiting for Messiah to come for the first time because they didn't get that He would first come as a suffering servant.., and then many generations later--as their night in shining armor.

I miss the dualism too, and htink ti was invented by alter theologians to explain why there interprtaiton of a propehcy WILL happen, when the Bibel plainly states it was alreayd fulflled... they simley declare it a duel prophecy...

Incedentlaly the reaosns the Jews reject Jesus as Mesiah has nothign to do with uel propehcies, they dont even think eh fulfille dh eoens we say he did...

Because they missed this two-fold prophecy, they'll most likely confuse the coming of antichrist as their long awaited Messiah. Scary things can happen when you don't *see* what is being revealed....

Although i can see many jews confusing the anti-christ withhte Messiah, do not think ti has ot do with fualism, since he variosu prophecyes we use to justofy the mesiah title ot Jesus they say he simpley ddnt fulfull. its less thta he ddidn meet all the requirements but met half ot hem, its that they say he met noen of them...

Other than, of coruse, a coincidental Birht in Jerusalem.

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), December 31, 2004.


Well Zarove--

Yes faith?

What about the coming of Messiah?

what of it? It is a two-fold prophecy.., where Christ first comes as a suffering servant., and then He comes as Savior.

Im sory, but no. He came as both saviour and sufferign servant int he irts advent. The new Prophjecy is that he shall come again, this is recorded inthe New Yestament. No art of the prophecy states he will come twice, nor is this a duel propehcy. and the Mesiah Prophecies, with the excetion of a few, are alreayd fulfilled.

Yet the Jews miss this dualism and are left still waiting for Messiah to come for the first time because they didn't get that He would first come as a suffering servant.., and then many generations later--as their night in shining armor.

I miss the dualism too, and htink ti was invented by alter theologians to explain why there interprtaiton of a propehcy WILL happen, when the Bibel plainly states it was alreayd fulflled... they simley declare it a duel prophecy...

Incedentlaly the reaosns the Jews reject Jesus as Mesiah has nothign to do with uel propehcies, they dont even think eh fulfille dh eoens we say he did...

Because they missed this two-fold prophecy, they'll most likely confuse the coming of antichrist as their long awaited Messiah. Scary things can happen when you don't *see* what is being revealed....

Although i can see many jews confusing the anti-christ withhte Messiah, do not think ti has ot do with fualism, since he variosu prophecyes we use to justofy the mesiah title ot Jesus they say he simpley ddnt fulfull. its less thta he ddidn meet all the requirements but met half ot hem, its that they say he met noen of them...

Other than, of coruse, a coincidental Birht in bETHELHAM..

nOTE: ELP, DELETE THE ONE ABOVE THIS, AND THE NOTE TO DELETE IT FORM THIS POST, i MESSED UP.

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), December 31, 2004.


Italics off.Elp, delete the above two posts if you pelase... and this note, after "Italics off", ot even the Irlaics off bit, but leave whats below the Asteith.

*

Well Zarove--

Yes faith?

What about the coming of Messiah?

what of it?

It is a two-fold prophecy.., where Christ first comes as a suffering servant., and then He comes as Savior.

Im sory, but no. He came as both saviour and sufferign servant int he irts advent. The new Prophjecy is that he shall come again, this is recorded inthe New Yestament. No art of the prophecy states he will come twice, nor is this a duel propehcy. and the Mesiah Prophecies, with the excetion of a few, are alreayd fulfilled.

Yet the Jews miss this dualism and are left still waiting for Messiah to come for the first time because they didn't get that He would first come as a suffering servant.., and then many generations later--as their night in shining armor.

I miss the dualism too, and htink ti was invented by alter theologians to explain why there interprtaiton of a propehcy WILL happen, when the Bibel plainly states it was alreayd fulflled... they simley declare it a duel prophecy...

Incedentlaly the reaosns the Jews reject Jesus as Mesiah has nothign to do with uel propehcies, they dont even think eh fulfille dh eoens we say he did...

Because they missed this two-fold prophecy, they'll most likely confuse the coming of antichrist as their long awaited Messiah. Scary things can happen when you don't *see* what is being revealed....

Although I can see many jews confusing the anti-christ withhte Messiah, do not think ti has ot do with fualism, since he variosu prophecyes we use to justofy the mesiah title ot Jesus they say he simpley ddnt fulfull. its less thta he ddidn meet all the requirements but met half ot hem, its that they say he met noen of them...

Other than, of coruse, a coincidental Birht in Bethleham.

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), December 31, 2004.


Not really Zarove..,

He has not literally returned as our night in shining armor to conquere Satan and establish us in His Kingdom.

So far--He has suffered and died for our sin--and rose from the dead-- but he hasn't returned for the second time as prophesied in this dual prophecy about Messiah from the Old Testament.

We see the two-fold--two comings of Christ--but these prophecies are found in numerous places and not completely clear to unbelievers. That is why the Jews have missed it.

This is common in the Scriptures and there are more places where prophecy is dual--as I showed you.

-- (faith01@myway.com), December 31, 2004.


Italics off

-- (faith01@myway.com), December 31, 2004.

Not really Zarove..,

{Yes relaly.}-Zarove

He has not literally returned as our night in shining armor to conquere Satan and establish us in His Kingdom.

{Uhm, as I said, withthe exception of a few propecies, everythign else was fulfilled, and nothign is fulfilled twice. why shoudl I beelive nay of the prophecies are duel? }-Zarove

So far--He has suffered and died for our sin--and rose from the dead-- but he hasn't returned for the second time as prophesied in this dual prophecy about Messiah from the Old Testament.

{There is no duel Prophecy about that though, thats the point...}- Zarove

We see the two-fold--two comings of Christ--but these prophecies are found in numerous places and not completely clear to unbelievers. That is why the Jews have missed it.

{Jews ar enow Unbeleivers? Liekwise, I dont see it and I DO beleive he will coem again...}-Zarove

This is common in the Scriptures and there are more places where prophecy is dual--as I showed you.

{You showed me nothign except verses toy take as duel, ignoring the fact that they likely arent duel, and refered nly tot he Babylonain capticvity, not the re-establishment fo Israel after this. They ar eonly duel Prophecites as makignthem duel means you can haveitboth ways, this si abotu Israel's re-estavlishent after babylon, and the 1948 re-establishment, to fit the rapture theory.

You have NOT hwoever been convening in proving to me that it IS a uel prpehcy, and no ammount of mere assertion will make this appear clear to me.}-Zarove

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), December 31, 2004.


Because Zarove--the Jews interpret their Scriptures to be saying that their Messiah will come once and save them.

But those same Scriptures revealed that there was a two-fold coming of Messiah. His coming is in two parts.

And in fact, we can break it down and even say it is possibly in three parts if you want to recognize the rapture of the church. Some people won't see it in the same way that the jews won't see the coming of messiah as something that happens twice.

-- (faith01@myway.com), December 31, 2004.


1: You have not shown this to be the case. event he verse you quoted don have anythign to do withte Messiah, but Israel the Nation-Sttae and its re-estavblishment. You claim its a duel Porpehcy referin to BOTH the babylonain return AND the events of 1948 when the British empire gave Israel back tot he Jews.

2: You have not roven that these prophecies where ever intended ot be sduel. Inded, if they where duel, why on earht didnt God tsay " This Prophecy wll be fulfilled twice"?

3: The csocned comign of the Messiah, and the two parts there, ARE recognised by soem Jews, who think wither the Messiah wil coem twisce, or else that he Messiah will be two people, oen a religious Mesiah and another a political one. Howevwer, bo duel Prophecy exists to support this, they base this on ther eunderstandin of the rglar prophecies as oen shot predictiosn fo the future.

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), December 31, 2004.


Zarove--

I know that what I brought up about Messiah has nothing to do with the other Scripture about Israel.

You said:

Can you show me where int eh Bible God reveals that a propehcy will be fulfulled twice? Or is this only a man made concept added to support the rapturte?

So I thought that I would give you an example of where God reveals a dual prophecy, which we can't see unless we piece it together from various Scriptures about Messiah., such as these:

Numbers 24:

15 Then he uttered his oracle:

"The oracle of Balaam son of Beor,

the oracle of one whose eye sees clearly,

16 the oracle of one who hears the words of God,

who has knowledge from the Most High,

who sees a vision from the Almighty,

who falls prostrate, and whose eyes are opened:

17 "I see him, but not now;

I behold him, but not near.

A star will come out of Jacob;

a scepter will rise out of Israel.

He will crush the foreheads of Moab,

the skulls [b] of [c] all the sons of Sheth. [d]

18 Edom will be conquered;

Seir, his enemy, will be conquered,

but Israel will grow strong.

19 A ruler will come out of Jacob

and destroy the survivors of the city."

and...

Isaiah 53:

1 Who has believed our message and to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed?

2 He grew up before him like a tender shoot,

and like a root out of dry ground.

He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him,

nothing in his appearance that we should desire him.

3 He was despised and rejected by men,

a man of sorrows, and familiar with suffering.

Like one from whom men hide their faces

he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

4 Surely he took up our infirmities

and carried our sorrows,

yet we considered him stricken by God,

smitten by him, and afflicted.

5 But he was pierced for our transgressions,

he was crushed for our iniquities;

the punishment that brought us peace was upon him,

and by his wounds we are healed.

6 We all, like sheep, have gone astray,

each of us has turned to his own way;

and the LORD has laid on him

the iniquity of us all.

7 He was oppressed and afflicted,

yet he did not open his mouth;

he was led like a lamb to the slaughter,

and as a sheep before her shearers is silent,

so he did not open his mouth.

8 By oppression [a] and judgment he was taken away.

And who can speak of his descendants?

For he was cut off from the land of the living;

for the transgression of my people he was stricken. [b]

9 He was assigned a grave with the wicked,

and with the rich in his death,

though he had done no violence,

nor was any deceit in his mouth.

10 Yet it was the LORD's will to crush him and cause him to suffer,

and though the LORD makes [c] his life a guilt offering,

he will see his offspring and prolong his days,

and the will of the LORD will prosper in his hand.

11 After the suffering of his soul,

he will see the light of life [d] and be satisfied [e] ;

by his knowledge [f] my righteous servant will justify many,

and he will bear their iniquities.

12 Therefore I will give him a portion among the great, [g]

and he will divide the spoils with the strong, [h]

because he poured out his life unto death,

and was numbered with the transgressors.

For he bore the sin of many,

and made intercession for the transgressors.



-- (faith01@myway.com), December 31, 2004.


Happy New Year everyone..

I'm gonna go and bang some pots with my husband and kids...

See how the idea of *what is a great party?* changes... Lol!!

-- (faith01@myway.com), December 31, 2004.


"Because they missed this two-fold prophecy, they'll most likely confuse the coming of antichrist as their long awaited Messiah. Scary things can happen when you don't *see* what is being revealed.... "

That is why I think the anti-Christ will be Jewish!

Happy New Year!

Gail

-- Gail (Rothfarms@socket.net), December 31, 2004.


Faith, Presenting what you think are duel prophecies sint evidnece that they are duel Porphecies.

See, simpley sayin that these are exampls of duel prophecies doesnt makw it so.

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), January 01, 2005.


Gail.,

I think he'll be Jewish too., but from Europe. He is the leader of a revived Empire--so he won't be from Israel.

-- (faith01@myway.com), January 01, 2005.


Zarove--

All you ever do is say., "no it isn't" "yes it is" "no it isn't" "yes it is" blah blah blah.

All you ever do is deny every Scriptural thing I offer and you argue an argument I can never understand.

You may not like or agree with the Scriptures I provide as saying what I believe they do. That's fine.

But lets be clear that this is always a matter of interpretation.

You may not agree that even the prophecy of Messiah's two-fold return is revealed in the Scriptures--but not in one place, all you want. That is what the Scriptures say to me.

Otherwise--why are you expecting Messiah again? Does the Old Testament come right out and say He will come twice? No.

-- (faith01@myway.com), January 01, 2005.


Zarove-- All you ever do is say., "no it isn't" "yes it is" "no it isn't" "yes it is" blah blah blah.

I do considerabely more than just deny thigns Faith, I also ask you ro prove your assertions.

Thusfar you have failed to do this...

Simpley showing a scrpture and sayng its an exampel of a duel prophecy doesnt show me how it was meant as a duel prophecy.

All you ever do is deny every Scriptural thing I offer and you argue an argument I can never understand.

OK, this latest arument is simple.

You claim these scriptures are diel Prophecies. They wil have two fulfillemnts.

IE, the firts fulfillement was the return after Babylonian Captivity, the next was the re-establishmwent fo Israel in 1948.

Now, my arugkent is not relaly so much an argument, as askign you to prove this to be the case.

Showign me the scripotures you think had two fulfillements, or are going to be fulfilled a second time, is not suffeciently convencing to anyone that it actlaly is a duel Prophecy.

Simpley declaring it a duel prophecy doesng make it a duel Prophecy.

So, my qieasyoion is, was, and has remained the same.

Can you prove this was intended to be a duel prophecy?

I dnt mean expalin the sfirst and secnd fulfillemnt, I mean, show me form scriptue where it says " This Prophecy will be fulfilled twice." Note, I said shwo form sciroture where it SAID it will be fulfilled twice. I did not say show me a Prophecy that you htink was fulfilled twice or will be fulfilled a sweocnd time. shopw me why I shoudl beleive your interpretaiton of duel prophecy...

You may not like or agree with the Scriptures I provide as saying what I believe they do. That's fine.

I like and agree withhte scriptures. I disagre with your untenable interpretation of he sciptures.

Relaly Faith, claimign I disagree with or dislike scirptures is rather petty.

Again, all you do is show the verses and declare then duel Prophecy.

when I point out that most dealt withhte return form babylon, you say " That wa sits firts fulfillemnt, it wil be fulfilled a seocnd time," or " It was fulfilled a seocnd time".

You sem to think that showing me the scurotures and tlelign me its a duel prophecy is rock solid evidence hat your posiiton is corrcxt.

Again, Im not disregardign or disagreeing quhthte sciroptures, but I have to ask again this simpel queatsion.

where dfes God ever tell peopel he is using the deice odf a duel Prophecy? where doe scriptrue say a Prophecy will be fulfilled twice? where in eh entire Bible does it claim that a Prophecy was fulfilled twice or will be fulfileld twice?

abd again, showing me verses you interpret as havng tw fulfillemnts isnt goiugn to prove that this is, indeed, the correct interpretation of the verses, and your interrpetation relies on preconvieved notions, and wa sinvented to support these precncieved notions, liek the rapture.

So, Faith, where in scirptrue does it say " This is a duel Prophecy', if no where, why shoudl I beleive nay are duel?

But lets be clear that this is always a matter of interpretation.

But in this cse, you interpret the verses to support the rapture theort, rather than using the verses to arrive at thwe rapture theory.

You started out withhe ocnclusion, then sought evidence, and are cinfused as to why w don see it. ts because we dont try to frce the scurpotures to read as we want them to read...

You may not agree that even the prophecy of Messiah's two-fold return is revealed in the Scriptures--but not in one place, all you want. That is what the Scriptures say to me.

By two-fold return you mean rapture theort... and all your soing here is tryig to makw myobjectisn to your poor exegesis look liek mere opinion, while at th same time gneratign an artificial air of soverignty ove rmy mere opinion becase yoy have the plain word of scirpture.

The tprible is, you use the theory of the rapture to re-interpret scieures to support this veiw.

This is why the whole nonsenc eof "Duel Prophecy' was invented in tefirts place, to support pet theories. no oen had ever heard of a duel propehcy beore the 1700's wiht anglo- Isrleiism...

The concept was derived to support htis notion, and now is used to support the Rapture.

you "Lnow" the rpautre is true and then reinterpret verses to fut the theory you alreayd have in mind.

Then say all i do is deny things and hate and disagree wht scirpoture.

The truth is you disagree with scripture.

No where does scrpture reveal that any of uts prophecies arfe duel propehcies and wil ahve a duel fulfillment.

its an invention of man to say this.

and to date all you can do is show me the vedrses you think are duel prphecies and support the rapue, inre th context of those verses, and when poitned out that they where about the return fom babylon you say " Its a duel propehcy, that was its first fulfillent, th tpature wll be its secnd" or some such.

its not evidnece Faith, and its nto me just denying things.

But before I beelive any prophecy has a duel fulfilent, you have to show me wher God revelaed this to be the case. Not just the verses you htink are duel...

Otherwise--why are you expecting Messiah again?

New Testament Prophecy alone says he will come again. Rejecting rapture Theory is not the same as rejectign the Second coming...

Does the Old Testament come right out and say He will come twice? No.

And we use only the Old testament? desn thre New say this? Is this not suffecient?

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), January 01, 2005.


"I think he'll be Jewish too., but from Europe. He is the leader of a revived Empire--so he won't be from Israel."

But why couldn't the "rebuilding of the Jewish temple", with the re- emergence of the Sanhedren, with the reinstitution of the sacrifice (an abomination it would be now), constitute the "revived Empire." Depending upon how "secular" this revival is, it could surely "fit the bill."

-- Gail (Rothfarms@socket.net), January 01, 2005.


I think that the antichrist makes a peace treaty between Israel and the Arab nations as a sort of intermediary. He comes from an Empire that has been concluded to be a revived Empire. I don't believe Israel was ever an Empire to begin with.

-- (faith01@myway.com), January 01, 2005.

Zarove--

When it comes to the things of faith, and Scripture in general--who can prove anything?

It's all about revelation Zarove. What has God revealed to you?

You say:

Simpley showing a scrpture and sayng its an exampel of a duel prophecy doesnt show me how it was meant as a duel prophecy.

I can't help you to see things the way I do. It's the Holy Spirit's work. This is what God shows me, and I simply share it. My Scriptures indeed support my beliefs. You may not *see* it--but that's not something I can do anything about.

You can present your interpretation, I can present mine. That is it.

-- (faith01@myway.com), January 01, 2005.


Zarove-- When it comes to the things of faith, and Scripture in general--who can prove anything?

{we're actulaly talkign textual critisism here Faith... Just show me a verse that says " This Prophecy will be fulfilled twice".

Othweriese, we have to tak the authros word for it, and its a one up Prophecy.}-Zarove

It's all about revelation Zarove. What has God revealed to you?

{Plenty, and it sure isnt the rapture... which your Babptist firneds intodiced to you, not God.}-Zarove

You say:

Simpley showing a scrpture and sayng its an exampel of a duel prophecy doesnt show me how it was meant as a duel prophecy.

I can't help you to see things the way I do. It's the Holy Spirit's work.

{Is it? What if htis " Ho;y spirit" is wrong? Realy Faith, you do NOT beleive in duel Porphecy because tre Holy psirit lead you, yo y beleive in it because yor where taught it by your Chruhc. They NEED this to be duel propehcy because they need prophetic, scriptural support for many of there cliams of a seven year Tribulaiton, and the rapture of the sains shortly before. Thes verses do show Israel becomign a naiton again so they ascrbe the meanig to 1948, and when poitned out that this refered tot he reelase form babylon thy claim its a duel prophecy.

by claiming that the H;y spirit lead you to this, you asusme your position is correct na dmen worng. Tgisz is untenable snce you cant do much more htan stitch togathe runrelated verses, often that cnradict your veiw on them, exspeicla when trea din context.

I eman, relaly...}-Zarove

This is what God shows me, and I simply share it.

{No, its what you learned at a cruhc and you feel tis right. Thee is a big diffeence...}-Zarove

My Scriptures indeed support my beliefs. You may not *see* it--but that's not something I can do anything about.

{Oh I see it more cealry than you gve me creidt for. I se how tyou snip bits and peives form variosu biblcial boosk that vualy rsemble what you needthem to, and say its a "Mystery"...

ts not a mustery, your meahtod of Biblical exegesis can make the Bibel sya anything. Its dangerous an dnacutate.}-Zarove

You can present your interpretation, I can present mine. That is it.

{But you justclaimed yours was arrived at by the leaing of the Hly Psirit. This autmatclay make smy interpretation wrogn and yours toght. even whn yours makes no snece in a plain reading of the text, and contradicts most of the resr o fht epassages you stake yotr proof- texts form.}-Zarove

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), January 01, 2005.


Hi Faith, there is only one verse in the whole Bible that uses "Empire" and it is found in Esther, totally inapplicable to the discussion at hand.

Does your translation use Empire somewhere, and if it does could you please cite the verse, so I can cross reference mine.

Also, with regard to the "peace pact," that has always been my impression as well. Is there a reference to peace pact in Revelations, or just in Daniel.

Gail

-- Gail (Rothfarms@socket.net), January 01, 2005.


Yes Zarove--

I do trust my church' take on the Scriptures and I believe that they have it right. I have considered many different church's positions and I find that the Scriptures do indeed reveal what my church believes. That is why I choose to worship where I do.

This is how prophecy works. We have to peace Scripture together to get the full picture of Messiah and it stands to reason that this is how all prophecy works.

You didn't answer my question as to how did you know Christ/Messiah would come twice, first as a suffering servant and then as the conquerer in the end of days. This is only revealed in bits and pieces in the Old Testament.

Ezekiel does indeed show the return of the Jews to Israel in 1948. But you'd have to be a scholar, or study as a scholar to get it fully. You'd have to be a historian of those days to understand. Since I am none of those things--I read books written by such scholars and I decide if what they say rings true with Scripture and the Holy Spirit's prompting in me.

The revelation of the exact date of 1948 is not something that could be seen or calculated until after its fulfillment. That is exactly how it works with Messianic fulfillment as well.

-- (faith01@myway.com), January 01, 2005.


Yes Zarove-- I do trust my church' take on the Scriptures and I believe that they have it right. I have considered many different church's positions and I find that the Scriptures do indeed reveal what my church believes. That is why I choose to worship where I do.

However, it seems to me that you just "Feel" that this is right, and take there word for it as it is what appeals most to you, or perhaps the peopel where he mst friendly or adament. Noentheless, there is no textual proof...

This is how prophecy works.

At least...according to thy Church...

We have to peace Scripture together to get the full picture of Messiah and it stands to reason that this is how all prophecy works.

This is not entirely true. although many details abut the Mesiah where predicted by diverent Prophts, each spacific Porphecy abouthte comming Messiah was given independantly and , as a stand aline Prophecy, needs no additional support.

Besides, what you are dougn is takign unrelated verses that apply to a spacific event, and makign them eman somehtign else. when it is poied out to you that these Prophecies where fulfilled at a diferent time than you assert, you say they are duel Porphecies. Applyign both to babylonain exicles end, and to the 1948 retirn.

The toruble is, nothign you have oresented actually shows prophecy to be duel, you just assert that it IS a duel prphecy as if that is suffecient evidence...

You didn't answer my question as to how did you know Christ/Messiah would come twice, first as a suffering servant and then as the conquerer in the end of days. This is only revealed in bits and pieces in the Old Testament.

I did answer it. its int he New Testaent.........

That is suffecnet ofr me...

Ezekiel does indeed show the return of the Jews to Israel in 1948.

does he now? see, you are makign another assertion withough bakcign it up,a nd when asked to bakc it up, you sau " You jus deny everything." Im not denying this time, Im askign for evidence.

what proof do you have of this?

indeed, what proof do you hVE THAT SOME PORPJECIES WHERE DUEL?

Any? besides your owrd and wht your Church says?>

But you'd have to be a scholar, or study as a scholar to get it fully.

You do realise that Im a PH.D candidate, right? I AM a scholar and I DO study as a scholar.........

You'd have to be a historian of those days to understand.

I likewise stuidy hisotyr, as I have revealed befoe...thoug my Majors ar theology and Psycology, oen cannot undertsand the advances in thes fields without the Hisotry of them...

And I find hisotyr fascenating...

Since I am none of those things--I read books written by such scholars and I decide if what they say rings true with Scripture and the Holy Spirit's prompting in me.

Tis translates into you basiclay accpetign what sounds good to you and whatever suits your fancy. You LIKE the idea of beign taken by the Lord befoe the big troible hits and everyone else beign left behind to suffer Punihsment , but this doesnt make it a tenable theory.

By the way, dozens of Theological scholars reject the Rapture theory. You ONLY accept what you want to accept and what you like.

The revelation of the exact date of 1948 is not something that could be seen or calculated until after its fulfillment. That is exactly how it works with Messianic fulfillment as well.

You did not, hwoever, give an exact dae, or show a verse that did...

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), January 01, 2005.


Bt the way, Im opening a new thread...this one is too long. Almost 130 Posts...

askign elp to lokc it, we shall resme on another. OK?

Post int he new one.

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), January 01, 2005.


Continued Discussion In New Thread CLICK HERE.

.................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), January 01, 2005.


Zarove--

I gave you an explanation of how Ezekiel did prophesied the exact time of the re-establishment of Israel in 1948--on the new thread you started.

On May 15, 1948, an event transpired that shocked foreign governments around the world, and this occured at the exact time as prophesied thousands of years earlier by the prophet Ezekiel..

God is still in control., no matter how out of control the events of our day might appear....

-- (faith01@myway.com), January 01, 2005.


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