FAITH-THE RAPTURE 2

greenspun.com : LUSENET : Ask Jesus : One Thread

OK, this is a resumation thread.

The Origional thread is here.

http://greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=00CczV

Lets continue the tlak here, OK?

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), January 01, 2005

Answers

Bump.

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), January 01, 2005.

Okay Zarove,

Since you asked....

Ezekiel 4:3-6

This will be a sign to the house of Israel....

Then lie on your left side and put the sin of the house of Israel upon yourself. You are to bear their sin for the number of days you lie on your side. I have assigned you the same number of days as the years of their sin. So for 390 days you will bear the sin of the house of Israel.

After you have finished this, lie down again, this time on your right side, and bear the sin of the house of Judah. I have assigned you 40 days, a day for each year.

It appears that in God's divine purpose, many of the details of the last days were sealed in prophetic visions in such a way that they could not be clearly discerned prior to their accomplishment. Each prophecy must be interpreted carefully in the light of the rest of Scripture. A sincere student of the Word must be very careful when he moves from clear, broad outlines of prophecy (e.g., the restoration of Israel and the revival of a tenfold division of the Roman Empire) to specific forcasting of exact times and the sequence of events of the latter days.

To illustrate the problem: consider the four different prophecies about the earthly home of Jesus. He is described in the Old Testament as 1)--being born in Bethlehem, 2)--coming forth out of Egypt, 3)-- being a Nazarene, 4)-- being presented as the King of the Jews in Jerusalem. On the face of it, these four prophecies seem totally contradictory, and yet each one of them was fulfilled to the letter in Christ's life.

While there was some expectation and knowledge of details surrounding Christ's birth before that day (for example, that it would take place in Bethlehem), it was only after the events occured that believers could search the Old Testament Scriptures and discover just how large a number of detailed prophecies had been fulfilled to the letter in the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus.

A basic principle of Scripture is that times are always specified in great detail for Israel, but never for the Church. We would look in vain for any date or calculation that reveals the time of the Rapture/Resurrection. God has specifically hidden this time. It is the failure to appreciate this fact that has led to so much error in prophetic interpretation.

For now, let's focus on one event that has taken place in history that has had tremendous implications--the rebirth of Israel.

Israel's relationship to the land is a major focus of prophecy, both fulfilled and unfulfilled. God prophesied precisely when the Jews would return to the promised land on two past occasions after her captivity in Egypt and following her captivity in Babylon.

Israel's first captivity and return....

On the 14th day of Nissan, the exact day that would later become the date of the Passover, the Lord appeared to Abraham to give him the Covenant for the Promised Land. God also prophesied that Abraham's descendents would be in affliction and bondage for a period of 430 years. Genesis 15:13:

Then the LORD said to him, "Know for certain that your descendants will be strangers in a country not their own, and they will be enslaved and mistreated four hundred years.

The mistreatment of the seed of Abraham (his descendents) began just thirty years after God gave Abraham the promise of the land. Genesis 21:8-10:

The child grew and was weaned, and on the day Isaac was weaned Abraham held a great feast. But Sarah saw that the son whom Hagar the Egyptian had borne to Abraham was mocking, and she said to Abraham, "Get rid of that slave woman and her son, for that slave woman's son will never share in the inheritance with my son Isaac."

The jealous mocking of Isaac by his older brother, Ishmael, began the affliction of Abraham's seed in Canaan and eventually ended four centuries later in bondage in Egypt and in the killing of male infants by the Egyptians. Exodus 12:40-41:

Now the length of time the Israelite people lived in Egypt was 430 years. At the end of the 430 years, to the very day, all the LORD's divisions left Egypt.

On Passover, on the exact day that the 430 years ended, God fulfilled His promise and brought Israel out of bondage of Egypt to become a mighty nation. The apostle Paul, in his letter to the Galatians, confirmed that God fulfilled His promise to end the captivity precisely 430 years after the promise was given to Abraham. Galatians 3:17:

What I mean is this: The law, introduced 430 years later, does not set aside the covenant previously established by God and thus do away with the promise.

Israel's second captivity and return....

When the Israelite's finally reached the Promised Land after their exodus from Egypt--and after an additional forty years of wandering in the wilderness as a punishment for their disbelief--there followed a period of time when Israel submitted to the leadership of God, with only a few lapses during the time of the Judges, the descendents of Abraham. This lasted until the kingdom was divided., following the death of King Solomon.

Years of rebellion against God followed during which the people, led by some of their worst kings, turned to idol worship and other gods. God's constant warnings to His people through His prophets were ignored. The people of the ten northern tribes, called Israel, were the first to be conquered in 721 B.C.:

This whole country will become a desolate wasteland, and these nations will serve the king of Babylon seventy years. Jeremiah 25:11.

Seventy years later, in fulfillment of Jeremiah's prophecy, King Cyrus of Persia overthrew the Babylonian Empire and released the Jews, just as the prophecy had foretold. History records that the captivity began in the month of Nisan, 606 B.C. and ended seventy years later, exactly as prophesied, on the first day of Nisan, 536 B.C. Ezra records the decree of Cyrus:

Anyone of his people among you-may his God be with him, and let him go up to Jerusalem in Judah and build the temple of the LORD, the God of Israel, the God who is in Jerusalem. Ezra 1:3.

However, only a small remnant of Jews took advantage of the opportunity to leave Babylonian captivity and return to Israel (fewer than fifty thousand). The vast majority (millions) never returned; they chose, rather, to live in the nation of their captivity.

Israel's third and final captivity and return...

Throughout the Old Testament there are prophecies of a final return of the Jewish exiles to the Promised Land in the last days.

Considering the precision with which God revealed the duration of earlier dispersions and captivities, it seems probable to me that revealed somewhere in the Scriptures would be a clue telling the time when the Jews would return from their final world-wide captivity to their Promised Land and once again established nation.

The prophet Ezekiel, like Daniel, was carried off to Babylon as a captive. He prophesied there for about twenty years. Also, like Daniel, he was aware from the prophecies of Jeremiah that the captivity in Babylon would last seventy years. All three prophets were contemporaries of each other. When the Lord appeared in a vision, He gave Ezekiel the prophecy I quoted at the begining of this post:

This will be a sign to the house of Israel.

"Then lie on your left side and put the sin of the house of Israel upon yourself. You are to bear their sin for the number of days you lie on your side. I have assigned you the same number of days as the years of their sin. So for 390 days you will bear the sin of the house of Israel.

After you have finished this, lie down again, this time on your right side, and bear the sin of the house of Judah. I have assigned you 40 days, a day for each year. Ezekiel 4:3-6.

In this prophecy we are given a sign and clear interpretation that each day represents one biblical year. Ezekiel was told that Israel would be punished for a period of 390 years and for 40 years. As prophesied by Jeremiah, at the end of the seventy years of captivity in Babylon during the spring of 536 B.C.., in the month of Nisan, and under the decree of the Persian king, Cyrus, a small remnant of of the house of Judah returned to Jerusalem. The vast majority were content to remain in the pagan Persian Empire as colonists.

From the toal decreed punishment of 430 years for Israel's and Judah's sin (390 years + 40 years = 430 years), deducting the 70 years of the Babylonian captivity which ended in 536 B.C.., there remains a total of 360 years of further punishment beyond 536 B.C.., the end of Babylonian captivity.

However--a close scrutiny of Israel's history fails to yield any significant period that corresponds to this period of 360 years of additional punishment. It should be noted also that, historically, Israel did not repent of its sin at the end of the 70 years in Babylon. In fact, even the minority of the fifty thousand who chose to return with Ezra to the Promised Land did so with little faith.

The larger part of the nation failed to repent of the sin and disobedience that caused God to send them into captivity in the first place. The majority of the Jews simply settled down as colonists in the Persian Empire.

The solution to the mystery of the duration of Israel's worldwide dispersion and return is found in a divine principle revealed to Israel in Leviticus 26. In this chapter of Scripture--the Lord established promises and punishments for Israel based on her obedience and her disobedience. On four different occasions in this passage, God told Israel that if, after being punished for her sins, she still refused to repent, the punishments previously specified would be multiplied by seven. (the number of completion).

" 'If after all this you will not listen to me, I will punish you for your sins seven times over. Leviticus 26:18

" 'If you remain hostile toward me and refuse to listen to me, I will multiply your afflictions seven times over, as your sins deserve. Leviticus 26:21

" 'If in spite of these things you do not accept my correction but continue to be hostile toward me, I myself will be hostile toward you and will afflict you for your sins seven times over. Lev. 23-24

" 'If in spite of this you still do not listen to me but continue to be hostile toward me, then in my anger I will be hostile toward you, and I myself will punish you for your sins seven times over. Lev. 26:27-28

In other words, if Israel did not repent, the punishment already promised would be prolonged or multiplied seven times. So let's look at this:

360 years of remaining punishment X 7= 2,520 biblical years.

Taking God's warning into consideration, the end of the punishment and final restoration to the Land would be accomplished in 2,520 biblical years of 360 days each.

The end of captivity in Babylon, according to the Bible and other historical sources, including Flavious Josephus--is recorded as having occured in the spring of 536 B.C. This date is the starting point for calculating:

2,520 biblical years X 360 (days in biblical year) = 907,200 days.

Converting this figure into our calendar year of 365.25 days by dividing 365.25 into 907,200 days, we reach a total of 2,483.8 calendar years. (In these calculations--keep in mind that there is only one year between 1 B.C. and A.D 1). Therefore, the end of Israel's worldwide captivity would occur after a total number of 2,483.8 years has elapsed from the spring of 536 B.C.

Let's calculate:

End of Babylonian Captivity spring [ 536 B.C.]

plus

Duration of worldwide captivity [2483.8 years]

equals

End of third captivity

and rebirth of Israel [May 15, 1948 ]



-- (faith01@myway.com), January 01, 2005.


Okay Zarove, Since you asked....

As asked, so recieved. with thanks, now fo discussion.

Ezekiel 4:3-6

This will be a sign to the house of Israel....

Then lie on your left side and put the sin of the house of Israel upon yourself. You are to bear their sin for the number of days you lie on your side. I have assigned you the same number of days as the years of their sin. So for 390 days you will bear the sin of the house of Israel.

After you have finished this, lie down again, this time on your right side, and bear the sin of the house of Judah. I have assigned you 40 days, a day for each year.

And lets take a loogk at context. shall we?

Unfortunaley, as with Isaiah and Jeremiah, ezikeil warns of the comign destruction fo Jerusalem at the hands of Nebuchanezzar the Secon d. ( The very same as wodl appoitn Daniel his advisor.)

The duration of time here refers to the captivity in babylon, and is not about the end Times.

It appears that in God's divine purpose, many of the details of the last days were sealed in prophetic visions in such a way that they could not be clearly discerned prior to their accomplishment.

At leats, acocrdig to your chruch whiuch tells you hwo to interpret the Bible, which is, Im afraid, nto alays trustworthy.

You look at hte se pasages withhte "Rapture" glasses on, and apply these verses to it as a framework, instead of applying the AScriptures themselves as the Framework.

The toruble is, you ASSUME this ot mean the re-establishment of israel in 1948 and that it coidl nto be seen as uch till afte rthis occured. but Prphecy is given before hand precicely so we will kow what is to come. Ther is no poin in veilign this, and your mathmatical jumping about its nothign btu an attmeo to convolute a connection wher in relaity none exists.

Each prophecy must be interpreted carefully in the light of the rest of Scripture.

This is why I reject Rapture theory, and any attmept to connect "deul menaings' to clar prophecyes, in light of Sciroture, ti falls apart.

A sincere student of the Word must be very careful when he moves from clear, broad outlines of prophecy (e.g., the restoration of Israel and the revival of a tenfold division of the Roman Empire) to specific forcasting of exact times and the sequence of events of the latter days.

Just as oen shoidl be careful, and not confudse Prophecies that have alreayd cme to pass with future events, or make duek prophecies out of Prophecies that arelreayd fulfiled to jiustify pet theories that are otheriwse untenable in scriptrue and ar eonly tenuously supported by callign the already-fulfilled Prphecy "Deul".

To illustrate the problem: consider the four different prophecies about the earthly home of Jesus. He is described in the Old Testament as 1)--being born in Bethlehem, 2)--coming forth out of Egypt, 3)-- being a Nazarene, 4)-- being presented as the King of the Jews in Jerusalem. On the face of it, these four prophecies seem totally contradictory, and yet each one of them was fulfilled to the letter in Christ's life.

Not only cna we see how they wherent conradictory after-the-fact, btu condiderign that anyone can do such events int eh course of a single lifetome, which talkes many years, its not een apparently conradictory if we omit knwoeldg eof Jesus's life.

While there was some expectation and knowledge of details surrounding Christ's birth before that day (for example, that it would take place in Bethlehem), it was only after the events occured that believers could search the Old Testament Scriptures and discover just how large a number of detailed prophecies had been fulfilled to the letter in the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus.

I, and the Magi, beg to differ.

A basic principle of Scripture is that times are always specified in great detail for Israel, but never for the Church.

well i suppose thats true unless you coun the rapture, becaue great detial ovf the seven Years is apparent, not to mention dispensationalism.

We would look in vain for any date or calculation that reveals the time of the Rapture/Resurrection.

I agree. B then. I think its vain to look for he Rapture at all...

God has specifically hidden this time. It is the failure to appreciate this fact that has led to so much error in prophetic interpretation.

God has hifden the seocnd Coming, not the rapture, which will not occure. sorry to speak in affirmatives, but yo do it all the tme, so I htoght I ocidl as well.

For now, let's focus on one event that has taken place in history that has had tremendous implications--the rebirth of Israel.

which?

Israel's relationship to the land is a major focus of prophecy, both fulfilled and unfulfilled. God prophesied precisely when the Jews would return to the promised land on two past occasions after her captivity in Egypt and following her captivity in Babylon.

Yes.

Israel's first captivity and return....

On the 14th day of Nissan, the exact day that would later become the date of the Passover, the Lord appeared to Abraham to give him the Covenant for the Promised Land. God also prophesied that Abraham's descendents would be in affliction and bondage for a period of 430 years. Genesis 15:13:

How do we knwo it was the 14th day of Nissan?Its not dated...Unless ou asume that it wa an exact 400 years tot he day becaue God said it woidl be 400 years... but i htik tjats beign Hyperliteral...

Then the LORD said to him, "Know for certain that your descendants will be strangers in a country not their own, and they will be enslaved and mistreated four hundred years.

The mistreatment of the seed of Abraham (his descendents) began just thirty years after God gave Abraham the promise of the land. Genesis 21:8-10:

The child grew and was weaned, and on the day Isaac was weaned Abraham held a great feast. But Sarah saw that the son whom Hagar the Egyptian had borne to Abraham was mocking, and she said to Abraham, "Get rid of that slave woman and her son, for that slave woman's son will never share in the inheritance with my son Isaac."

The jealous mocking of Isaac by his older brother, Ishmael, began the affliction of Abraham's seed in Canaan and eventually ended four centuries later in bondage in Egypt and in the killing of male infants by the Egyptians. Exodus 12:40-41:

Now the length of time the Israelite people lived in Egypt was 430 years. At the end of the 430 years, to the very day, all the LORD's divisions left Egypt.

we do not knwo if it was "Top the very day". Your article asusmes that the 14th of Nissan was when God tild this to abraham, based on no real scirture. what if God tld this to abraham on the 7th of Iyar?

Agin, he knows it was the 14th of Nissan because that was " An exact 400 years ot he Day", which asusmedd Hyperliteral readings of the Bible.

it cil have been omewhat approximated you know. Ther eis no proof that it was 400 years o the day. and no, i dotn thik the Bibel is lying if its off by a few days or even a monht or two...

On Passover, on the exact day that the 430 years ended,

at leats suppsoeldy, with no proof...

God fulfilled His promise and brought Israel out of bondage of Egypt to become a mighty nation. The apostle Paul, in his letter to the Galatians, confirmed that God fulfilled His promise to end the captivity precisely 430 years after the promise was given to Abraham. Galatians 3:17:

That verse reads as follows.

17. And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.

It oes nto confirnm that its 430 yeaRS TOT HE DAY .

What I mean is this: The law, introduced 430 years later, does not set aside the covenant previously established by God and thus do away with the promise.

No one ever said it did.

Israel's second captivity and return....

When the Israelite's finally reached the Promised Land after their exodus from Egypt--and after an additional forty years of wandering in the wilderness as a punishment for their disbelief--there followed a period of time when Israel submitted to the leadership of God, with only a few lapses during the time of the Judges, the descendents of Abraham. This lasted until the kingdom was divided., following the death of King Solomon.

Years of rebellion against God followed during which the people, led by some of their worst kings, turned to idol worship and other gods. God's constant warnings to His people through His prophets were ignored. The people of the ten northern tribes, called Israel, were the first to be conquered in 721 B.C.:

This whole country will become a desolate wasteland, and these nations will serve the king of Babylon seventy years. Jeremiah 25:11.

Seventy years later, in fulfillment of Jeremiah's prophecy, King Cyrus of Persia overthrew the Babylonian Empire and released the Jews, just as the prophecy had foretold. History records that the captivity began in the month of Nisan, 606 B.C. and ended seventy years later, exactly as prophesied, on the first day of Nisan, 536 B.C. Ezra records the decree of Cyrus:

Anyone of his people among you-may his God be with him, and let him go up to Jerusalem in Judah and build the temple of the LORD, the God of Israel, the God who is in Jerusalem. Ezra 1:3.

However, only a small remnant of Jews took advantage of the opportunity to leave Babylonian captivity and return to Israel (fewer than fifty thousand). The vast majority (millions) never returned; they chose, rather, to live in the nation of their captivity.

True.

Israel's third and final captivity and return...

Throughout the Old Testament there are prophecies of a final return of the Jewish exiles to the Promised Land in the last days.

where though? Not to doubt too much but we do need evidence...

Considering the precision with which God revealed the duration of earlier dispersions and captivities, it seems probable to me that revealed somewhere in the Scriptures would be a clue telling the time when the Jews would return from their final world-wide captivity to their Promised Land and once again established nation.

why? Becaue it fits neeatly to your liking? Or because it fits the end times raptur theory?

The prophet Ezekiel, like Daniel, was carried off to Babylon as a captive. He prophesied there for about twenty years. Also, like Daniel, he was aware from the prophecies of Jeremiah that the captivity in Babylon would last seventy years. All three prophets were contemporaries of each other. When the Lord appeared in a vision, He gave Ezekiel the prophecy I quoted at the begining of this post:

This will be a sign to the house of Israel.

"Then lie on your left side and put the sin of the house of Israel upon yourself. You are to bear their sin for the number of days you lie on your side. I have assigned you the same number of days as the years of their sin. So for 390 days you will bear the sin of the house of Israel.

After you have finished this, lie down again, this time on your right side, and bear the sin of the house of Judah. I have assigned you 40 days, a day for each year. Ezekiel 4:3-6.

In this prophecy we are given a sign and clear interpretation that each day represents one biblical year. Ezekiel was told that Israel would be punished for a period of 390 years and for 40 years. As prophesied by Jeremiah, at the end of the seventy years of captivity in Babylon during the spring of 536 B.C.., in the month of Nisan, and under the decree of the Persian king, Cyrus, a small remnant of of the house of Judah returned to Jerusalem. The vast majority were content to remain in the pagan Persian Empire as colonists.

From the toal decreed punishment of 430 years for Israel's and Judah's sin (390 years + 40 years = 430 years), deducting the 70 years of the Babylonian captivity which ended in 536 B.C.., there remains a total of 360 years of further punishment beyond 536 B.C.., the end of Babylonian captivity.

Atelats if yoyu convolute the plin readings here......and use this sort of warped math to justify your own ends...

However--a close scrutiny of Israel's history fails to yield any significant period that corresponds to this period of 360 years of additional punishment. It should be noted also that, historically, Israel did not repent of its sin at the end of the 70 years in Babylon. In fact, even the minority of the fifty thousand who chose to return with Ezra to the Promised Land did so with little faith.

The larger part of the nation failed to repent of the sin and disobedience that caused God to send them into captivity in the first place. The majority of the Jews simply settled down as colonists in the Persian Empire.

The solution to the mystery of the duration of Israel's worldwide dispersion and return is found in a divine principle revealed to Israel in Leviticus 26. In this chapter of Scripture--the Lord established promises and punishments for Israel based on her obedience and her disobedience. On four different occasions in this passage, God told Israel that if, after being punished for her sins, she still refused to repent, the punishments previously specified would be multiplied by seven. (the number of completion).

" 'If after all this you will not listen to me, I will punish you for your sins seven times over. Leviticus 26:18

More " take and grab" form alternate parts f the Buble to make the numebrs large enoug to fit, right?

" 'If you remain hostile toward me and refuse to listen to me, I will multiply your afflictions seven times over, as your sins deserve. Leviticus 26:21

" 'If in spite of these things you do not accept my correction but continue to be hostile toward me, I myself will be hostile toward you and will afflict you for your sins seven times over. Lev. 23-24

" 'If in spite of this you still do not listen to me but continue to be hostile toward me, then in my anger I will be hostile toward you, and I myself will punish you for your sins seven times over. Lev. 26:27-28

In other words, if Israel did not repent, the punishment already promised would be prolonged or multiplied seven times. So let's look at this:

You confse the Levitical Law code with the Prophecy in Isiah, this way you can multiply the 430 years to 3010 years to thus support the 1948 Porphecy, btu you wont show why I shoud beleive these thigns have any intereelation, aside form bot beign Biblical texrts...

360 years of remaining punishment X 7= 2,520 biblical years.

If, tat is, Leviticus was ever intended to be added ot he punishments as you blidnly assert...

Taking God's warning into consideration, the end of the punishment and final restoration to the Land would be accomplished in 2,520 biblical years of 360 days each.

stupid old God, he said 430 years, he relaly means a could of millinia... lukcily southern baptists knwo better nadconnext it ti Leviticus and show how God was worng in his Porphecy to ezekiel...

The end of captivity in Babylon, according to the Bible and other historical sources, including Flavious Josephus--is recorded as having occured in the spring of 536 B.C. This date is the starting point for calculating:

2,520 biblical years X 360 (days in biblical year) = 907,200 days.

Converting this figure into our calendar year of 365.25 days by dividing 365.25 into 907,200 days, we reach a total of 2,483.8 calendar years. (In these calculations--keep in mind that there is only one year between 1 B.C. and A.D 1). Therefore, the end of Israel's worldwide captivity would occur after a total number of 2,483.8 years has elapsed from the spring of 536 B.C.

Let's calculate:

End of Babylonian Captivity spring [ 536 B.C.]

plus

Duration of worldwide captivity [2483.8 years]

equals

End of third captivity

and rebirth of Israel [May 15, 1948 ]

Assuming, of coruse, your figures are right, and assuming, of course, God meant for you to add the Levitical punishment for spacific crmes to a propejcy he made pacificlaly to ezekiel... neither seem to be the case.

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), January 01, 2005.


This is the best you can do Zarove? More *no sir* responses?

So you think it is just an amazing coincidence that there were 360 years of expected punishment that went unanswered and that when you X that number by seven--which God said He would do for unrepentance and you figure it all out and it comes to 1948--that that means nothing?

360 years of remaining punishment X 7= 2,520 biblical years.

Taking God's warning into consideration, the end of the punishment and final restoration to the Land would be accomplished in 2,520 biblical years of 360 days each.

The end of captivity in Babylon, according to the Bible and other historical sources, including Flavious Josephus--is recorded as having occured in the spring of 536 B.C. This date is the starting point for calculating:

2,520 biblical years X 360 (days in biblical year) = 907,200 days.

Converting this figure into our calendar year of 365.25 days and dividing 365.25 into 907,200 days, we reach a total of 2,483.8 calendar years. (In these calculations--keep in mind that there is only one year between 1 B.C. and A.D 1). Therefore, the end of Israel's worldwide captivity would occur after a total number of 2,483.8 years has elapsed from the spring of 536 B.C.

When you do the math, Zarove--it equals 1948!!!

This doesn't stimulate your intelligence just a bit??

-- (faith01@myway.com), January 03, 2005.


Not relaly, sicne you use circular logic and admit this...

You in the previous thread admited that you rejected the accepted time for the return of the israelites. I did wonder why, btu now I know.

Yiou took the 360 year Propehcy, multiplied it by seven, got the results, then backtracked form 1948.

so, you use the revised numbers to arrive at yor conclusion. You know the prophecy is accurate becayse it predicts a 1948 date, but you use the 1948 date to arrive at when the prophecy was mean tot start in the firts place.

The excule woidl have had to end in 525 BC in order for htis prophecy to work as you sdescrube. your soruces say this is, inded, twhen it ends. But NTEY base this on the 360 times 7 idea, and then take the estalblished, incontestable 1948 date and subtract the 2,483 years to arive at when they say the dexcile ended.

The excile hwoeve is pretty clealry dated at 538 BC.This is when King Cyprus declared frredom. This makes the date for Israel 1945.Off by three eyars.

even then, there is NO evidence the 360 years woudl be multipleid by seven, you have to cannibalise parts of the Mosaic law to get to that.

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), January 03, 2005.



Faiht, Im ryign to help you here. Remember, i beelive the 1948 restorationw as prophecies as well. And the cae ofr ezekeil can be made, but I need you to think criticlaly here.

The verses you used int he past, Isiah and Jeremiah and Malichi, do NOGT refer to 1948, and when dalign with prophecy, too often epoel want too many thigns to mean too many other things.

Jusr need you to make better cases.

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), January 03, 2005.


I don't need help Zarove.

Keep your head in the sand if you want to.

I personally find theology that is this intelligent--irresistable.

You've got your numbers and dates and theology all turned around.

I can't help you.

My only point was to show you that it is necessary to use all of Scripture to interpret Scripture--because that is how revelation works.

Nothing is spelled out simply--even though you demand it--it is not going to happen for you. You need to learn how to harmonize God's Word as being 0f One mind.

You also need to recognize that prophecy isn't given so that we can be forwarned of something before it happens--but more, so tht we can see the amazing fulfullment and just *know* that God's Word is truth and that God is truth. There is no other purpose for prophecy.

So say that it is circular reasoning to acknowledge that some prophecies cannot make sense until they are fulfilled--is nonsense

-- (faith01@myway.com), January 03, 2005.


I don't need help Zarove.

I beg to differ.

Keep your head in the sand if you want to.

This is hardly what Im doing. I am intereste din kowing as much as posisble. Simpley rekjectign your untenable positions and askign yuo for evidence that sitn base don contrivance is not burrying my head in th sand. on the contrarty, your refusal to se why this is far form convencing is burryign your own head int he sand. I personally find theology that is this intelligent-- irresistable.

Bugt you alo foudn irresistable the bbaylonain paganism that worshipped the Great Mother Goddess based N semiaramis, that was supposeldy the roman state religion. That proved futile.

This isn't that intellegent, tis a contrivance.

You've got your numbers and dates and theology all turned around.

No, I dont. You do, however, use the calculations and date of Modern Israel to date the past events, whih si ciscular reasoning, which si never sound outside of Time Travel.

I can't help you.

It becomes apparent hat you cannot even help youraelf... My only point was to show you that it is necessary to use all of Scripture to interpret Scripture--because that is how revelation works.

But we shoud becme overzelous and try to make the scrpotrue say somthign it doent, by najcign it up with unrelated scrptue... Nothing is spelled out simply--even though you demand it--it is not going to happen for you. You need to learn how to harmonize God's Word as being 0f One mind.

I have. You havent... you just take otherpeoels argumets yo liek at face vlaue no mate rhow contirved they are.

You also need to recognize that prophecy isn't given so that we can be forwarned of something before it happens--but more, so tht we can see the amazing fulfullment and just *know* that God's Word is truth and that God is truth. There is no other purpose for prophecy.

But it IS given to predict the uture... othereise why did Jeremiah fight so hard to PREVENT his form comign o pass...his was provisional. ( If you don repent you are destoryed a a nation. Had tthey repented no Vaptivity woidl befall them.)

If no oen "saw and understood' it as prophecy in the irts palce, its not that amazing after-the-fact...when w cna say we ar einterptetign it to mean hat we want...

So say that it is circular reasoning to acknowledge that some prophecies cannot make sense until they are fulfilled--is nonsense

I said it was circular reasnign to date the departue form exiule by the 11948 Date. You KNOW they left exile in 535 BC because it is exaclty 2435 years before 1948 You use the prphecy to prove the prophjecy...

That is circular reasonng and that is Nonsence.

-- ZAROVEQ (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), January 03, 2005.


They left Babylon in 536 B.C...Zarove. Who said 535? It is a matter of recorded history....

-- (faith01@myway.com), January 03, 2005.

It wa a Typeo Faith... And recorded hisrty is off by a few eyars... by your cculations nayway...

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), January 03, 2005.


How so Zarove? The math works out perfectly.

-- (faith01@myway.com), January 03, 2005.

"The captivity formally ended in 538 BC, when Cyrus the Great, the Persian conqueror of Babylonia, gave the Jews permission to return to Palestine. "

This is from the website located here.

http://www.gprep.org/~agaldi/theexile.htm

We have clear, extrajudicial and Biblical, texts to confirm this as the specific date. Not 536 BC. You are two years off.

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), January 03, 2005.


Given that Israel was re-established as a state in 1948--I think I'll believe my source as to when the exile from Babylon took place. By the way--Flavious Josephus is one of them, and he is a non-biased source.

-- (faith01@myway.com), January 03, 2005.

That was my whole point. You are usigthe Prophec to prove the prophecy. this is circular reasoning. You know Israel was re- established in 194u8, then you subtract the Number 360 multipleid by seven to arrive at 536 BC instead of 538 BC.

This is not sound reasoning.

incedentlay, I beleive Josephus dates it to tewo years earlier, if you woidl liek you van quote Jospehus palcing it where you cliam it is though. Im all ears, proverbially.

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), January 03, 2005.


It's not circular reasoning Zarove--not anymore that it would be circular reasoning to say that 37+9=46 and we know this because if you subtract 9 from 46 you would get 37!

Also Zarove--feel free to look up Favius Josephus' Wars of the Jews to find his dates. I don't need to do that. I told you where Josephus' dates comes from, but it's a big book!

-- (faith01@myway.com), January 03, 2005.



The problem is, the Joesephus dates are where most moern schoalrs who say it happeend in 538 BC get there dates...

and it remaisn curcular reasoning, You know hte date of the retrn form exile based on yor interrpetation of choice of prphecy...

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), January 03, 2005.


Zarove--how can you ignore such precision., and furthermore, why do you need to deny that Ezeziel was right on?

What is wrong with this understanding? What does it destroy for you otherwise? I don't get it?

Why would you want to disprove a biblical prophet?

-- (faith01@myway.com), January 03, 2005.


Zarove--how can you ignore such precision., and furthermore, why do you need to deny that Ezeziel was right on?

The torible sint ezekeil, but your tak eon him. You add 7 times the lenght to his prophecy, which he did NOT claim woil be added. You add this form an unrelated part of Mosaic law.

Rathe than rely on ezekeil, you distort what he was referign to and add an unrelated passage form Leviticus ot make it fit.

So rather, you are denying ezekeil, and cliamign to be capable of seocnd-guessing him and what he meant to say.

What is wrong with this understanding?

The fac that he prhecied 360 years and not over 2 Millinia? You have to anibalise form the Torah lw to extend it seven times, instead of accpetin what the Prphet said, as if he wa sincapable of sayign what he meant.

What does it destroy for you otherwise?

It destoys nothing, but your inerrpetaiton doesnt rst compeltley on ezekeil and a plainr eaidng, but on takign aprts form Levitius and extendign the 360 years to over 2 millinia, and all base don a Man- Made rapttire theory.

You use the rapture utlien to interrpet scirptue, rather than scirpture to arive at this.

I don't get it?

Its simple. ezekeil Prophecies 360 years, not 2400 years. Artificilly inflatign his prophecy by adding levitical passages is not vlaid exegesis.

Why would you want to disprove a biblical prophet?

I only dsprive your poor interpretation of the Biblical prphet, sicne tyour interrpetation disproves him.

ezekeil said 360 years, not 2400 years. Multiplying it by seven doesnt work.

Likewise, you ignroe the fac tthat DFlavious Jospehys wa son my side on the datign of the end of the Exile.

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), January 03, 2005.


So Zarove--

My question is this,

You said that you believe that it was prophesied that Israel would become a nation in 1948. So where do *you* find this prophecy?

There are 360 years of remaining punishment that the jews did not pay- -so how does that balance out with w precision God who has always followed through on His word?

-- (faith01@myway.com), January 03, 2005.


So Zarove-- My question is this,

You said that you believe that it was prophesied that Israel would become a nation in 1948. So where do *you* find this prophecy?

Ill hve to answer this in a day or too. Classes keep me away.sorry.

But I will answer. Irs juts more detailed.

There are 360 years of remaining punishment that the jews did not pay- -so how does that balance out with w precision God who has always followed through on His word?

Its not ignored, but Hisotyr is... you seem to be piculiar when it coems to Hisotry. if its not int he Bible, it didnt happen unelss it hapepend after Bilcal times... such as "The end Times" we ar ein now while expectgn the Rapture.

There was a 400 tear intervol between the last Hebrew Prophet, Malachi, and Jesus's Borth.

This period was not uneventful, an the Jews where cnqured twic eint h coruce of...wait for it...360 years. They where still under oppression when Jesus was orn. This 360 years ended, in fact, in 70 AD.By that time they had been given a cance to accept the Messiah and end all there torubles, and rejected him, s where turned over to there desturction.

The Jews, hwoever, are still udner God's covenant, and he watched overthem to this day.

But, Jerusalem was destoryed in 70 AD, at the end of the 360 years of occupation they served firs under the Greeks, whow here too brutal, and then the romans.

This is where the 360years coems form.

And I didnt have to multiply it by Seven, s it fits exaclty with ezekiels words.

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), January 04, 2005.


What??

You made no sense to me.

-- (faith01@myway.com), January 04, 2005.


Irs somple Faith. 360 Years if opression, at the hands of the Gfreco- roman world, took lace in History.

You asked m where this naccounted for 360 years in ezekiel went. I showed you.

The Greeks and later the romans took possession of Palistine.

Did you relaly think in the intervailing 400 yearsbetween malichi and Jesus nothign at all happened?

It makes perfect sence, more than yoyr " Lets multiply by sweven" idea.

In this interpretation, 360 years is 360 years, and he Jews paid in full wiht 360 years of oppression.

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), January 04, 2005.


"How could I be surprised by His coming--or not expect Him to come--in this:

"But immediately AFTER the tribulation of those days THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS WILL FALL from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.

"And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory. "And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

Compare to this:

As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left.

“Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come. But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what time of night the thief was coming, he would have kept watch and would not have let his house be broken into. So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him.

Not contradictory Zarove? "- Faith

No, there isn't one contradiction between these three verses. They perfectly form one event. Like you said, the actual coming of the Lord is practically a nuclear event. This concerns the first verse you posted.

Look at the second verse now concerning the days of Noah. It describes the state the world will be in before the coming of Christ. Notice that a parallel is made between the flood (hardly an overlooked disaster) and the second coming of Jesus. "They knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away." Who is "they?" They refers to the wicked people of the Earth. They will not be expecting the "flood." What is the flood? It is the nuclear event of the second Coming. It will be totally unexpected and come without warning to those who aren't paying attention. "Behold I come as a thief!"

The first verse concerns the actual event--the coming of the Lord. The second describes the state of the world before the Lord returns. You are trying to contrast these and make them two seperate events, when there is only one.

-- Luke Juarez (hubertdorm@yahoo.com), January 05, 2005.


The coming of the Lord will be like a suprise birthday party. You wake up one morning, shower, dress, eat breakfast and drive to work. Your day is just as the previous. Nothing unusual is happening. After work, you drive back to your home, hoping something good is on T.V. You open your front door, it's dark, and so you move across the entry way to the light switch. You slowly flip it up...

Suprise!!!!

"OMG! OMG! OMG!" you scream. You are so frightened at first, then you begin to see what is happening. There are balloons hanging and people blowing little party toys. The table is stacked with presents and cake so large you can see the scale breaking. Everyone is laughing and coming up to hug you.

Up until this point, you had being going about your everyday routine. Nobody mentioned a party to you. There were no signs on your way home announcing the party. This is the state the world will be in previous to the return of Christ. But when you heard the friends yell, "surprise!" you were taken away by a flood, a nuclear disaster. Totally unexpected!

At least at the party you had your clothes on.

-- Luke Juarez (hubertdorm@yahoo.com), January 05, 2005.


Luke,

I have come to recognize that none of those verses describe the rapture of the church though.

The elect in the first verse are the Israelites. This is a picture of the Jews being gathered to one place on earth. This is not a picture of the rapture of the church into the air.

The rapture of the church is a quiet mystery that will enable the antichrist to be revealed. This happens before the Tribulation or judgement of the unbelieving world who rejected Jesus.

-- (faith01@myway.com), January 05, 2005.


Hi Faith, you said, "The rapture of the church is a quiet mystery that will enable the antichrist to be revealed. This happens before the Tribulation or judgement of the unbelieving world who rejected Jesus."

Then why did Paul (in Thess) advise the Thessalonians that the appearance of the AntiChrist was a sign that the Lord would soon return?

Gail

-- Gail (Rothfarms@socket.net), January 05, 2005.


Gail, you said:

Then why did Paul (in Thess) advise the Thessalonians that the appearance of the AntiChrist was a sign that the Lord would soon return?

Do you really think that that was Paul's point in this?:

Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers, not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the day of the Lord has already come. Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for (that day will not come) until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God.

It seems to me that Paul was just showing them that the Day of the Lord could not have already come because look what is prophesied to occur first. He was saying, "Has any of this happened yet?" Paul's biggest concern was that there were already those who would purport false things, and submit false documents.

-- (faith01@myway.com), January 05, 2005.


I'm not sure if I'm following you here Faith.

Paul says two things will happen before the Day of the Lord:

1) The apostacy. 2) The revealing of AntiChrist.

I think you agree that that is what Paul is saying, right?

-- Gail (Rothfarms@socket.net), January 05, 2005.


Yes,

Paul is pointing out that these things must occur before the Day of the Lord comes. And in this--he proves to these ealy believers that indeed the Day of the Lord has not already come, as deceivers were trying to claim.

-- (faith01@myway.com), January 05, 2005.


So IF Paul knew of a rapture, why did he bother to warn the Thessalonians about the apostacy and the antiChrist, if he knew the church would not be here to see these things?

-- Gail (Rothfarms@socket.net), January 05, 2005.

Gail--

I don't think his purpose was to warn them about apostacy and the antichrist of the endtimes.. It was to assure them that the Day of the Lord had not already happened--as was being purported by false teachers. He was telling them that deceivers were out there impersonating him and telling lies.

-- (faith01@myway.com), January 05, 2005.


Right Faith, these things were given by Paul as warnings so these "gentile" believers would not be deceived. They would see two things before the coming of the Lord: an apostacy and the AntiChrist.

Can we believers in this age look for the same things as "signs" before the Lord's return? If not, why not?

-- Gail (Rothfarms@socket.net), January 05, 2005.


No Gail.,

Paul isn't telling these Thessalonians that they will see the antichrist. He is proving that the Day of the Lord has not come, because if it had--they would have seen these things because that is what is prophesied.

This doesn't mean that he was telling them that "they themselves" or even the "church itself" would see this come about. Only that it had to come to fruition before the Day of the Lord--and therefore--since it hasn't happened, relax. His point was that that day has obviously not come.

We can look for the birth pains described such as increased wickedness., earthquakes, fast-paced living with greatly increased knowledge etc...

But if we are found here looking to Christ coming in on the clouds with His army of saints riding right behind him--I'd say we are in the wrong position!

Paul tells that the antichrist cannot be revealed until the Holy Spirit is taken out of the way. Since the Holy Spirit dwells in believers--I am convinced that what Paul is describing is the rapture of the church. Antichrist would have free reign and have no problem convincing those who do not have the Word of God--anything he wants to make them believe. He could not accomplish such deceit with the church present.

-- (faith01@myway.com), January 05, 2005.


Hi Faith,

Could you please give the cite for the above passage?

I am familiar with your interpretation of this passage, but I never could jive that interpretation with the other Thessalonian passages. It makes no sense that Paul would just "forget to mention the rapture" in the Thessalonian letters. If the "rapture" were to occur before the Antichrist, he would certainly have said so here. To tell them about events that would happen after "their ride had come," makes no sense whatsoever.

Let's take a closer look at the passage you loosely quoted above. I'll see if I can find it too.

Gail

-- Gail (Rothfarms@socket.net), January 05, 2005.


What do you mean by this?:

To tell them about events that would happen after "their ride had come," makes no sense whatsoever.

I mean--obviously, these particular Christians would never really see the rise of antichrist in any event. This was a future prophecy that I am sure Paul was not anticipating at all for these Christians--yet, he wasn't anticipating it for any Christians at all. His point was something else.

These Christians knew that the rapture comes first., otherwise they would never have given such a rumor that the Day of the Lord had already come, any thought. Obviously the huge battle of Armageddon was far off in the distance and they knew this. So why would they think the day of the Lord could have come? Why would this shake them if they believed in a post-Trib rapture? They would be thinking, Oh good--finally. Now we can face antichrist and then receive our crown of righteousness.

Nope--I think these Thessalonians knew that if the Day of the Lord had already come, somehow., they missed the boat! Were they rejected by Christ?? That's why they were shaken!....

It's all in Thessalonians 1 and 2

-- (faith01@myway.com), January 05, 2005.


The rapture....1 Thess 4:13-18:

Brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant about those who fall asleep, or to grieve like the rest of men, who have no hope. We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. Therefore encourage each other with these words.

Christ's return..

Matt 24:30-31

“At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other. *****************************

What differences do we see here that prove these are two very different events?

-- (faith01@myway.com), January 05, 2005.


No, I don't think Paul had any idea when the Lord was returning. Christ himself said "no one knows the day or the hour. . . ." He was simply sharing with the Thessalonians what he knew about the Day of the Lord (not the rapture as you mean it) because in 1 Thess 5:2 he calls it, point-blank, the "Day of the Lord" (See below)

Yes, the Thessalonians were shaken concerning the "Day of the Lord," yet they were foggy in their eschatology. Paul clears it up by describing the parousia (which you quoted above as the rapture) in the 1st letter to Thessalonians Chapter 4.

And then Paul IMMEDIATELY goes on in 2 Thess Chap 5 1-2

1. Now as to the times and the epochs, brethren, you have no need of anything to be written to you. (Paul doesn't know when!)

2. For you yourselves know full well that the DAY OF THE LORD will come just like a thief in the night.

3. While THEY (THE WORLD) are saying "Peace and safety" then "destruction will come upon them suddenly like birth pangs upon a woman with child; and THEY shall not escape.

4. But you, brethren, are not in darkness, that the DAY should overtake you like a thief.

We are to remain awake and alert while THEY (the world) thinks everything is hunky-dorey, which is exactly what they will do, because that is exactly what has always happened since Noah.

Then, in 2nd Thessalonians, Paul goes on further to assauge their anxiety, and simply elaborates, or builds upon the foundation he laid in 1st Thess. He tells the Thessalonians that the Day of the Lord, which was the subject of 1st Thess, will not occur until two things happen; the apostacy and the man of sin.

I do not see two separate events at all. Paul echoes Jesus' words precisely. The world will go on and on ignoring cataclysmic events, as they always do, but we are to "lift our heads for our redemption draweth nigh." The only dicotomy is between the ungodly who pay know attention to the events of their times, and the godly who are eagerly awaiting His return.

Gail

P.S. There is a story about some folks in the 18th century who were sure the rapture was coming on such-and-such date. They sold all their possessions, donned in black robes, and climbed the mountain where the "Lord told them to go." Alas, nothing happened! It was actually a very sad story. I think some of them ended up committing suicide or something.

-- Gail (Rothfarms@socket.net), January 05, 2005.


Faith, I forgot to ask you, when the Bible says "Day of the Lord" do you believe that is referring to your idea of "rapture" or is it the 2nd Coming (as I mean it)?

-- Gail (Rothfarms@socket.net), January 05, 2005.

Gail, it seems Faith has to believe that the "day of the Lord" refers to the Rapture + 7 year tribulation + 2nd Coming of Christ + 1000 year reign= Day of the Lord

One day is a thousand (plus seven).

-- Luke Juarez (hubertdorm@yahoo.com), January 06, 2005.


" The rapture....1 Thess 4:13-18: Brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant about those who fall asleep, or to grieve like the rest of men, who have no hope. We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. Therefore encourage each other with these words.

Christ's return..

Matt 24:30-31

“At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other. *****************************

What differences do we see here that prove these are two very different events? " - Faith

Bolding parts that you want to emphasize doesn't change the action Faith. These two events are nearly identical, and here I will list why:

1) Jesus returns on a cloud in both passages

2) A trumpet is sounded in both passages

3) The elect are gathered to Jesus in both passages

4) Angelic presense is mentioned in both passages

You are basing an entire doctrine on what is not mentioned instead of what is

-- Luke Juarez (hubertdorm@yahoo.com), January 06, 2005.


"I mean--obviously, these particular Christians would never really see the rise of antichrist in any event. This was a future prophecy that I am sure Paul was not anticipating at all for these Christians--yet, he wasn't anticipating it for any Christians at all. His point was something else.

These Christians knew that the rapture comes first., otherwise they would never have given such a rumor that the Day of the Lord had already come, any thought. Obviously the huge battle of Armageddon was far off in the distance and they knew this. So why would they think the day of the Lord could have come? Why would this shake them if they believed in a post-Trib rapture? They would be thinking, Oh good--finally. Now we can face antichrist and then receive our crown of righteousness.

Nope--I think these Thessalonians knew that if the Day of the Lord had already come, somehow., they missed the boat! Were they rejected by Christ?? That's why they were shaken!.... " - Faith

This is the biggest bunch of bunk I've ever read. It is entirely speculative and based on personal perception rather than fact.

Paul wasn't addressing a belief that they had missed the Rapture, or that the coming of the Lord had already occured (past tense). Paul was refuting the belief that the day of the Lord "had come," or "is at hand."

The problem was that some were teaching Christ could return at any moment, that is, an imminent return. Paul reminded them that no, Jesus' return was not at hand at all because according to Jesus' own words, the antichrist would come first.

What is imminency? It means nothing MUST happen BEFORE the particular event. If only one event MUST occur BEFORE the return of Jesus (even the Rapture), his return cannot be imminent. Some events MAY take place before the particular event. Such does not disqualify it from being imminent. But if even ONE circumstance MUST occur BEFOREHAND, imminence is not possible.

-- Luke Juarez (hubertdorm@yahoo.com), January 06, 2005.


Gail--

I think that the Day of the Lord starts with the rapture of the church and finishes seven years later with the return of Jesus to this earth.

I do not think that the *Day* is a literal day.

-- (faith01@myway.com), January 06, 2005.


Gail,

I have no doubt in my mind that the early believers were anticipating a rapture or catching way of the church before the Tribulation period.

Otherwise the idea that the Day of the Lord had begun would have made them glad.

Clearly the people who are here for the revealing of antichrist and the apostacy are not going to be in the frame of mind that everything is *hunky dorey* as you put it.

It is the rapture's timing that we cannot know or predict.

The second coming of Christ who comes back to earth with vegence on those who rejected Him--is something no one will not have anticipated by that time.. All the signs--including/especially the revealing of antichrist--will be quite visible. Armageddon will also be hard to miss.

In fact, if the church is present during this time--she will be wiped out because she would not receive the mark of the beast, and then the rapture would be a pretty big non-event!

-- (faith01@myway.com), January 06, 2005.


No Luke,

The two passages are very different.

In one, Jesus comes Himself and takes the church to Himself in the air. He is accompanied by the voice of an archangel and the trumpet of God. The dead rise first and then those alive at the time join them to meet them in the air.

In the second one, Jesus sends His angels to gather the Jews from the corners of the earth to meet at the Mount of Olives. This is Armageddon. John describes it also in Revelation 1:7:

Look, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him; and all the peoples of the earth will mourn because of him. So shall it be! Amen.

and here in 19:11-20:

I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and makes war. His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns. He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself. He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God. The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean. Out of his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. “He will rule them with an iron scepter. "He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty. 16On his robe and on his thigh he has this name written: KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.

And I saw an angel standing in the sun, who cried in a loud voice to all the birds flying in midair, “Come, gather together for the great supper of God, so that you may eat the flesh of kings, generals, and mighty men, of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, small and great.”

Then I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies gathered together to make war against the rider on the horse and his army. But the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who had performed the miraculous signs on his behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped his image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur.

-- (faith01@myway.com), January 06, 2005.


So Faith, if that Day of the Lord is not a literal day, then why does creation have to contain 7 literal days? What measure are you using to determine which is which? Who says?

-- Emily ("jesusfollower7@yahoo.com"), January 06, 2005.

Good questions Emily.

In the second one [Mt 24:30-31] , Jesus sends His angels to gather the Jews from the corners of the earth to meet at the Mount of Olives. This is Armageddon. John describes it also in Revelation 1:7: - Faith

Where does it say the angels are gathering the Jews?

-- Andy S ("ask3332004@yahoo.com"), January 06, 2005.


Andy, the Scriptures reveal that the elect can be both the church and the Jews.

The church is not gathered on earth from the four corners...she is catched-up into the air to be with Christ in heaven. Christ comes for us Himself.

The elect in Matt 24 cannot be the church. A different scenario is painted here. Angels gather them back to Israel., just as was promised. This happens on the earth.

At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

Whe are these elect? The church? There is no mention of any resurrection here. This sounds like the gathering of Jews from the for corners of the earth. They have come to live in the 1000 year reign of Christ. Tribulation saints. Those who survived the Tribulation and did not receive the mark of the beast. Remember that for the sake of these elect--Jesus cut short those days. This is all live action on earth.

The resurrection of the dead in Christ and those of us still alive at that time is a different event altogether....it is described as happening when things were good and no one expected it. And in the resurrection of the church--Jesus came for us Himself. He did not send angels.

-- (faith01@myway.com), January 06, 2005.


Faith,

I'm having trouble understanding your position because I don't see the word "elect" in the NT to mean the Jews (that is those who are still awaiting the Messiah). How did you come to the conclusion that "Scriptures reveal that the elect can be both the church and the Jews" after Christ's resurrection?

Aren't the "elect" everyone who accepts Christ and abides in Him faithfully to the end of their lives? That is, the elect are the "elect" based on their beliefs, not their race. I thought this is what Scripture shows.

-- Andy S ("ask3332004@yahoo.com"), January 06, 2005.


No Andy.,

God's *elect* before the church--was Israel.. The church is also refered to as the elect, but that doesn't eliminate the fact that God has unfinished business with His chosen people--the Jews.

This judgement is coming in the last week of Daniel's prophecy known as Jacob's Trouble--which is the Tribulation period of seven years that comes after the church is removed.

This is where the Jews are judged for their rejection of God.

We4 see it in Isaiah 65:9-

I will bring forth descendants from Jacob, And from Judah an heir of My mountains; My elect shall inherit it, And My servants shall dwell there. Sharon shall be a fold of flocks, And the Valley of Achor a place for herds to lie down, For My people who have sought Me.

"But you are those who forsake the LORD, Who forget My holy mountain, Who prepare a table for Gad, And who furnish a drink offering for Meni.

Therefore I will number you for the sword, And you shall all bow down to the slaughter; Because, when I called, you did not answer; When I spoke, you did not hear, But did evil before My eyes, And chose that in which I do not delight."

Therefore thus says the Lord GOD: "Behold, My servants shall eat, But you shall be hungry; Behold, My servants shall drink, But you shall be thirsty; Behold, My servants shall rejoice, But you shall be ashamed;

Behold, My servants shall sing for joy of heart, But you shall cry for sorrow of heart, And wail for grief of spirit. You shall leave your name as a curse to My chosen; For the Lord GOD will slay you, And call His servants by another name; So that he who blesses himself in the earth Shall bless himself in the God of truth; And he who swears in the earth Shall swear by the God of truth; Because the former troubles are forgotten, And because they are hidden from My eyes.

"For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth; And the former shall not be remembered or come to mind. But be glad and rejoice forever in what I create; For behold, I create Jerusalem as a rejoicing, And her people a joy. I will rejoice in Jerusalem, And joy in My people; The voice of weeping shall no longer be heard in her, Nor the voice of crying.

"No more shall an infant from there live but a few days, Nor an old man who has not fulfilled his days; For the child shall die one hundred years old, But the sinner being one hundred years old shall be accursed. They shall build houses and inhabit them; They shall plant vineyards and eat their fruit. They shall not build and another inhabit; They shall not plant and another eat; For as the days of a tree, so shall be the days of My people, And My elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands. They shall not labor in vain, Nor bring forth children for trouble; For they shall be the descendants of the blessed of the LORD, And their offspring with them. "It shall come to pass That before they call, I will answer; And while they are still speaking, I will hear. The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, The lion shall eat straw like the ox, And dust shall be the serpent's food. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all My holy mountain," Says the LORD.

-- (faith01@myway.com), January 06, 2005.


Faith wrote, "They have come to live in the 1000 year reign of Christ. Tribulation saints. Those who survived the Tribulation and did not receive the mark of the beast. Remember that for the sake of these elect--Jesus cut short those days. This is all live action on earth."

Please explain how this all can happen on "earth" since the earth and all the works that are in it will be burned up on the "day of the Lord"???

-- Kevin Walker ("navyscporetired@comcast.net"), January 06, 2005.


simple Answer Kevin... remodling. soem putty, plaster, and nails, an we wl ave the wrld as good as new.

( OK Bad joek sorry.)

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), January 06, 2005.


The earth will be renewed after all these things have come to pass. The Day of the Lord is not one literal day--but begins at the rapture and lasts seven years., ending at His return to earth for the final battle of Armageddon. Then He makes everything new.

-- (faith01@myway.com), January 06, 2005.

If the day of the Lord isnt Liteal, why doy uo get mad whe peopel sa genesis days arent Literal? Or for that matter, the days in daniel?

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), January 06, 2005.

Because Zarove--there is reason behind the madness, so-to-speak. And we *can* understand the difference between what is meant literally and what is not. Context really is everything!

You need to be able to harmonize the entire Bible as One though..,and that is something you don't seem to want to do. You get annoyed, for example, when I support my theology by citing various verses from all over the Bible.

But that is how the Bible was intended to be understood and studied. That is how revelation works.

You can't just recklessly declare that the Genesis day is not literal if the Day of the Lord isn't. There's no rhyme or reason to that attitude.

-- (faith01@myway.com), January 06, 2005.


Because Zarove--there is reason behind the madness, so-to-speak. And we *can* understand the difference between what is meant literally and what is not. Context really is everything!

I agree, however, you often ignroe the ocntext. such as when I "get annoyed by your taking variosu erses from throughout the Bible." You often ignore the origional context of the verses you site. You then force siad verses with others to fit your raptue theologhgy.

You need to be able to harmonize the entire Bible as One though..,and that is something you don't seem to want to do.

Its semtign that cnanot be done, ince the bile is mor ehtna one thouht, and has man lessons, not just one...

You get annoyed, for example, when I support my theology by citing various verses from all over the Bible.

No, I get anoyed when youignore the context of a fgiven pasage, an try to forc eit to rea the wya you want or need ot to to support your theology. I likewise get annoyed when you takeunrelated pasages and ry to force them togather to fit what tou think tey eman alreayd, evenif it disrecards theplain reading of the text.

The incedent where you attempt to make a 360 Year Prophecy from Ezekiel into 2540 years becae you needed it to reach 1948 is an example.

The Prophecy plainly read 360 years.

Likewise, you inore Hsotry. You assime this 360 tears wa sunnacouned for unless we multiply it by seven and allow t to end in 1948, dispite hte fac thtta the excile ended with Israel beign a naiton once mroe, and dispie th Occupation they endured under the Greeko- roman world for 360 years...

You IGNROE Hisotry and context and plan reaidng to force fit these into a set tguideline to support yor theology. This is why im annoyed.

But that is how the Bible was intended to be understood and studied. That is how revelation works.

Does it also work whre you ignore massive hisotrical evidence, and the fac tthat israles 2540 eyar curse which wasnt lifted till they became a naiton again in 1948, contradicts the fac tthat imediatley afte the exile they whre a naiton for abotu 40 or so years? ( meanign at leat you have to add 40 years tothe propehcy or aocunt for hwy God allwe the reutrn 40 years early...you started your calculaitons at the return form excile, when they had a nation...)

IThe Bible wa snot meant ot be read by takign cariosu apsages and alignign them to a preconcieved notion, whic is hat yo do.

You can't just recklessly declare that the Genesis day is not literal if the Day of the Lord isn't. There's no rhyme or reason to that attitude.

There is no thyme or reason for yo to declare the day of the Lord as not literal, except you need it to be metaphorical to fit your theology concernig the rapture. without the raputre e theory to spport, you woudl liekly not be so figurative here.Thats the point...

-- ZARPVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), January 06, 2005.


"The Day of the Lord is not one literal day--but begins at the rapture and lasts seven years., ending at His return to earth for the final battle of Armageddon."

That's nice assumption Faith however, you will not find what you just said "The Day of the Lord is not one literal day--but begins at the rapture and lasts seven years" in the Bible...

-- Kevin Walker ("navyscporetired@comcast.net"), January 06, 2005.


The day of the Lord is a literal day, as Kevin said.

Zechariah 14 On that day there will be no light, no cold or frost. It will be a unique day, without daytime or nighttime-a day known to the LORD . When evening comes, there will be light.

There is not one passage in the entire bible concerning the day of the Lord which might lead one to believe it is not a literal day.

Once again, the pre-trib belief shows it does not use literal interpretation

-- Luke Juarez (hubertdorm@yahoo.com), January 06, 2005.


"In one, Jesus comes Himself and takes the church to Himself in the air. He is accompanied by the voice of an archangel and the trumpet of God. The dead rise first and then those alive at the time join them to meet them in the air.

In the second one, Jesus sends His angels to gather the Jews from the corners of the earth to meet at the Mount of Olives. This is Armageddon. John describes it also in Revelation 1:7:" - Faith

Where does it say in Matthew 24 that Jesus gathers the Jews?

Where does it say they meet him at the Mount of Olives?

You are making things up again.

-- Luke Juarez (hubertdorm@yahoo.com), January 06, 2005.


I often refer back to my highschool years as being a day to remember. I'll say something like, "Back in that day, I was carefree!"

Such descriptions as these below, leave no doubt in my mind that the Day of the Lord is the Tribulation period:

Psalm 110:5

The Lord is at your right hand; he will crush kings on the day of his wrath.

Joel 1:15

Alas for that day! For the day of the LORD is near; it will come like destruction from the Almighty.

Joel 2:11

The LORD thunders at the head of his army; his forces are beyond number, and mighty are those who obey his command.

The day of the LORD is great; it is dreadful. Who can endure it?

Amos 5:18-27

Woe to you who long for the day of the LORD !

Why do you long for the day of the LORD ?

That day will be darkness, not light.

It will be as though a man fled from a lion only to meet a bear, as though he entered his house and rested his hand on the wall only to have a snake bite him.

Will not the day of the LORD be darkness, not light- pitch-dark, without a ray of brightness?

"I hate, I despise your religious feasts; I cannot stand your assemblies.

Even though you bring me burnt offerings and grain offerings, I will not accept them.

Though you bring choice fellowship offerings, I will have no regard for them.

Away with the noise of your songs!

I will not listen to the music of your harps.

But let justice roll on like a river, righteousness like a never- failing stream!

"Did you bring me sacrifices and offerings forty years in the desert, O house of Israel?

You have lifted up the shrine of your king, the pedestal of your idols, the star of your god - which you made for yourselves.

Therefore I will send you into exile beyond Damascus," says the LORD , whose name is God Almighty.

-- (faith01@myway.com), January 07, 2005.


continued......

Zephaniah 2:2-3

... before the appointed time arrives and that day sweeps on like chaff, before the fierce anger of the LORD comes upon you, before the day of the LORD's wrath comes upon you.

Seek the LORD , all you humble of the land, you who do what he commands. Seek righteousness, seek humility; perhaps you will be sheltered on the day of the LORD's anger.

Malachi 4:1

"Surely the day is coming; it will burn like a furnace. All the arrogant and every evildoer will be stubble, and that day that is coming will set them on fire," says the LORD Almighty. "Not a root or a branch will be left to them.

-- (faith01@myway.com), January 07, 2005.


Faith, here is that passage we were talking (somewhere) about the wicked being removed from among the righteous.

Matthew 13: 36 Then He left the crowds and went into the house. And His disciples came to Him and said, "Explain to us the parable of the tares of the field." 37 And He said, "The one who sows the good seed is the Son of Man, 38 and the field is the world; and as for the good seed, these are the sons of the kingdom; and the tares are the sons of the evil one; 39 and the enemy who sowed them is the devil, and the harvest is the end of the age; and the reapers are angels. 40 "So just as the tares are gathered up and burned with fire, so shall it be at the end of the age. 41 "The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness, 42 and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 43 "Then THE RIGHTEOUS WILL SHINE FORTH AS THE SUN in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear. 44 "The kingdom of heaven is like a treasure hidden in the field, which a man found and hid again; and from joy over it he goes and sells all that he has and buys that field. 45 "Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a merchant seeking fine pearls, 46 and upon finding one pearl of great value, he went and sold all that he had and bought it. 47 "Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a dragnet cast into the sea, and gathering fish of every kind; 48 and when it was filled, they drew it up on the beach; and they sat down and gathered the good fish into containers, but the bad they threw away. 49 "So it will be at the end of the age; the angels will come forth and take out the wicked from among the righteous, 50 and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 51 "Have you understood all these things?" They said to Him, "Yes."

-- Gail (Rothfarms@socket.net), January 08, 2005.


Yes Gail--we find this harvest again in Revelation 14:14-20--smack in the judgement of the Tribulation period. This is an image of judgement. Neither illustration is a picture of the rapture of the church.

I looked, and there before me was a white cloud, and seated on the cloud was one “like a son of man” with a crown of gold on his head and a sharp sickle in his hand. Then another angel came out of the temple and called in a loud voice to him who was sitting on the cloud, “Take your sickle and reap, because the time to reap has come, for the harvest of the earth is ripe.” So he who was seated on the cloud swung his sickle over the earth, and the earth was harvested.

Another angel came out of the temple in heaven, and he too had a sharp sickle. Still another angel, who had charge of the fire, came from the altar and called in a loud voice to him who had the sharp sickle, “Take your sharp sickle and gather the clusters of grapes from the earth's vine, because its grapes are ripe.” The angel swung his sickle on the earth, gathered its grapes and threw them into the great winepress of God's wrath. They were trampled in the winepress outside the city, and blood flowed out of the press, rising as high as the horses' bridles for a distance of 1,600 stadia.

-- (faith01@myway.com), January 08, 2005.


Faith,

Not once in the verses you quoted does it state what you said in an earlier post: "The Day of the Lord is not one literal day--but begins at the rapture and lasts seven years., ending at His return to earth for the final battle of Armageddon."

It does not say it in Psalm 110:5...

It does not say it in Joel 1:15...

It does not say it in Joel 2:11...

It does not say it in Amos 5:18-27...

It does not say it in Zephaniah 2:2-3...

Nor does it say it in Malachi 4:1...

You are assuming things that you must prove... There is no proof that the "Day of the Lord" in any of the passages you quoted above is not a "literal" day...

-- Kevin Walker ("navyscporetired@comcast.net"), January 08, 2005.


The Day of the Lord is clearly a picture of the Tribulation, and we know how long that period lasts.

-- (faith01@myway.com), January 08, 2005.

"The Day of the Lord is clearly a picture of the Tribulation, and we know how long that period lasts."

Where is your proof that the "Day of the Lord is clearly a picture of the Tribulation"???

-- Kevin Walker ("navyscporetired@comcast.net"), January 08, 2005.


Just read the few verses I offered already! Especially Amos 5:18-27:

Woe to you who long for the day of the LORD !

Why do you long for the day of the LORD ?

That day will be darkness, not light. (Why? Because the church of Jesus Christ is absent)

It will be as though a man fled from a lion only to meet a bear, as though he entered his house and rested his hand on the wall only to have a snake bite him.

Will not the day of the LORD be darkness, not light- pitch-dark, without a ray of brightness?

"I hate, I despise your religious feasts; I cannot stand your assemblies.

Even though you bring me burnt offerings and grain offerings, I will not accept them.

Though you bring choice fellowship offerings, I will have no regard for them.

Away with the noise of your songs!

I will not listen to the music of your harps.

But let justice roll on like a river, righteousness like a never- failing stream!

"Did you bring me sacrifices and offerings forty years in the desert, O house of Israel?

You have lifted up the shrine of your king, the pedestal of your idols, the star of your god - which you made for yourselves.

Therefore I will send you into exile beyond Damascus," says the LORD , whose name is God Almighty. *********************************************

Clearly this is a reference to the final judgement of unbelieving Israel--exactly as described in Revelation--not to mention Ezekiel and Daniel.

-- (faith01@myway.com), January 08, 2005.


"Just read the few verses I offered already! Especially Amos 5:18- 27:"

Let's see if what you say is true Faith...

"Woe to you who long for the day of the LORD !"

Here is a "day of the LORD" Not multiple days as you assume...

"Why do you long for the day of the LORD ?"

Here is another "day of the LORD" Not multiple days as you assume...

"That day will be darkness, not light. (Why? Because the church of Jesus Christ is absent)"

Here you go again assuming what you must prove... Just because there is "darkness, not light" does not mean that the church of Christ is absent... You are merely reading into the text... It will be "darkness" because this is the day of judgment. GOd said in 2 Peter 3:7, "But the heavens and the earth which are now preserved by the same word, are reserved for fire until the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men."

It will be a "dark" "day" because many people will be lost...

God also says in Matthew 8:12, "But the sons of the kingdom will be cast out into outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

Hmmmmmmmmm... There is that word "darkness"...

"It will be as though a man fled from a lion only to meet a bear, as though he entered his house and rested his hand on the wall only to have a snake bite him. Will not the day of the LORD be darkness, not light- pitch-dark, without a ray of brightness?"

God said in Matthew 25:30, "And cast the unprofitable servant into the outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

"I hate, I despise your religious feasts; I cannot stand your assemblies."

What religous feasts does the church observe??? There are none...

"Even though you bring me burnt offerings and grain offerings, I will not accept them."

Does the church offer "burnt offerings" and "grain offerings"???

Certainly not...

"Though you bring choice fellowship offerings, I will have no regard for them."

Does the church offer "choice fellowship offerings"...

I think not...

"Away with the noise of your songs! I will not listen to the music of your harps."

Does the true church of Christ offer instruments of music to God...

Not at all...

"But let justice roll on like a river, righteousness like a never- failing stream! "Did you bring me sacrifices and offerings forty years in the desert, O house of Israel?"

This is speaking of Israel, not the church...

"You have lifted up the shrine of your king, the pedestal of your idols, the star of your god - which you made for yourselves."

This has nothing to do with judgment day...

"Therefore I will send you into exile beyond Damascus," says the LORD , whose name is God Almighty."

How can God send anyone "into exile beyond Damascus" when this earth and everything in it will be burned up???

"Clearly this is a reference to the final judgement of unbelieving Israel--exactly as described in Revelation--not to mention Ezekiel and Daniel."

The Jews were already judged in A.D. 70 and the city of Jerusalem was destroyed...

-- Kevin Walker ("navyscporetired@comcast.net"), January 08, 2005.


This has nothing to do with the church, Kevin.

-- (faith01@myway.com), January 08, 2005.

"This has nothing to do with the church, Kevin."

Which is my point exactly... The Jews have already been judged...

-- Kevin Walker ("navyscporetired@comcast.net"), January 08, 2005.


They have not been judged in the final picture. They are still paying for the last judgement.

The church is not part of any judgement in the end of days. It is only about Israel. The church is judged innocent in Christ. We are saved. There is no condemnation for us.

The only thing left for the church is to receive our rewards in heaven based on our works.

-- (faith01@myway.com), January 08, 2005.


"They have not been judged in the final picture. They are still paying for the last judgement."

No, they are not still paying for anything on judgment day... The Jews have already been judged, that is why they are no longer the people of God... Have you not read Matthew 21:43 which states, "Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken from you and given to a nation bearing the fruits of it."

And what Paul stated in Acts 13:45-47, "45 But when the Jews saw the multitudes, they were filled with envy; and contradicting and blaspheming, they opposed the things spoken by Paul. 46 Then Paul and Barnabas grew bold and said, "It was necessary that the word of God should be spoken to you first; but since you reject it, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, behold, we turn to the Gentiles. 47 For so the Lord has commanded us: 'I have set you as a light to the Gentiles, That you should be for salvation to the ends of the earth.'"

"The church is not part of any judgement in the end of days."

This is not true for God says in 1 Peter 4:18, Now if the righteous one is scarcely saved, Where will the ungodly and the sinner appear?"

"It is only about Israel."

You are assuming again without any proof... Scripture please...

"The church is judged innocent in Christ. We are saved. There is no condemnation for us."

Actually, everyone will be judged on the day of judgment... for it is written in Revelation 20:12-15, "12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire."

Please notice that "anyone not found written in the Book of Life" will be cast into the lake of fire... this includes the church... "The only thing left for the church is to receive our rewards in heaven based on our works."

There were some churches in the book of Revelation that Jesus plainly stated if they did not "repent", that He would remove their candlestick... This certainly means that they would be lost...

-- Kevin Walker ("navyscporetired@comcast.net"), January 08, 2005.


The Book of life is filled with the names of those who belong to Christ. This would be the church...all true believers.

Where does it indicate that an of them are being judged on this day?

They are not only *not judged* this day, but they sit in judgement with Christ.

-- (faith01@myway.com), January 08, 2005.


To him who overcomes and does my will to the end, I will give authority over the nations– ‘He will rule them with an iron scepter; he will dash them to pieces like pottery’– just as I have received authority from my Father.

Revelation 26-27

-- (faith01@myway.com), January 08, 2005.


"The Book of life is filled with the names of those who belong to Christ. This would be the church...all true believers. Where does it indicate that an of them are being judged on this day?"

God says in Revelation 20:12-13, "12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books."

All the dead, small and great will be judged on judgment day... There is not a separate judgment for believers and unbelievers...

Have you not read in Matthew 13:49-50, "49 So it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come forth, separate the wicked from among the just, 50 and cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth."

Have you also not read in Matthew 25:33, "And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left."

Everyone will be judged on the same day...

"They are not only *not judged* this day, but they sit in judgement with Christ."

No, it is Jesus who will be the judge on the day of judgment for it is written in Acts 17:31, "because He has appointed a day on which He will judge the world in righteousness by the Man whom He has ordained. He has given assurance of this to all by raising Him from the dead."

"To him who overcomes and does my will to the end, I will give authority over the nations– ‘He will rule them with an iron scepter; he will dash them to pieces like pottery’– just as I have received authority from my Father. Revelation 26-27"

This is how the "saints" judge the world for it is written in 2 Corinthians 10:3-6, "3 For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war according to the flesh. 4 For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal but mighty in God for pulling down strongholds, 5 casting down arguments and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God, bringing every thought into captivity to the obedience of Christ, 6 and being ready to punish all disobedience when your obedience is fulfilled."

-- Kevin Walker ("navyscporetired@comcast.net"), January 08, 2005.


Kevin,

The *dead* in Revelation are all those who were not raised in Christ at the rapture, the resurrection of Christ's church, that we see described in 1 Thess. 4:16-18:

For the Lord Himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command-- with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

So you see--we are with Christ during His judgement of the dead., as Revelation 19 shows.

What could the church have to be judged about? The Bible says that there is no longer any comdemnation for those found in Christ. We are the names in the book of life.

Revelation 20:12-13, "12 And I saw the dead (unbelievers), small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life (the church). And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books."

Notice that those in the book of life are not judged?

You say:

All the dead, small and great will be judged on judgment day... There is not a separate judgment for believers and unbelievers...

And I say this is false. Christians do not face this judgement.

Our works are tested in the fire and our heavenly rewards are determined based on how well they withstood the fire. But this testing is not unto salvation--just to determine heavenly rewards.

1 Corinthians 3:13-15

...his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's work. If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames.

-- (faith01@myway.com), January 09, 2005.


"The *dead* in Revelation are all those who were not raised in Christ at the rapture, the resurrection of Christ's church, that we see described in 1 Thess. 4:16-18:"

Where is your proof that the "dead in Revelation are all those who were not raised in Christ at the rapture"???

1 Thess 4:16-18 does not help you one bit...

"So you see--we are with Christ during His judgement of the dead., as Revelation 19 shows."

Revelation 20 shows all the dead, not just some of them... Go back and re-read Revelation 20:12...

"What could the church have to be judged about? The Bible says that there is no longer any comdemnation for those found in Christ. We are the names in the book of life."

We will "all" be judged according to our works... Go back again and re-read Revelation 20:12-13...

"Notice that those in the book of life are not judged?"

It does not say that "those in the book of life are not judged"... Once again you are assuming things that you must prove...

I wrote, "All the dead, small and great will be judged on judgment day... There is not a separate judgment for believers and unbelievers..."

To which Faith replied, "And I say this is false. Christians do not face this judgement."

You can say "this is false" all you want... Your belief does not agree with what God has plainly revealed in His word... There are not two separate judgments, one for the righteous and one for the wicked... Go back and look at the judgment scene in Matthew 25:31- 46...

"Our works are tested in the fire and our heavenly rewards are determined based on how well they withstood the fire. But this testing is not unto salvation--just to determine heavenly rewards."

Our names can be blotted out of the book of Life (See Revelation 3:5 and 22:19) so your assumption that Christians are not judged on the final judgment day is false...

-- Kevin Walker ("navyscporetired@comcast.net"), January 09, 2005.


Hi Faith, you said "What could the church have to be judged about? The Bible says that there is no longer any comdemnation for those found in Christ. We are the names in the book of life."

Matthew 16-27 "For the Son of Man is going to come in the glory of His Father with His angels; and will then recompense every man according to his deeds."

2 Cor. 5:10 For we must ALL appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.

1 Peter 1:17 And if you address as Father the one who impartially judges according to each man's work, conduct yourselves in fear during the time of your stay upon earth.

Rev 22-12 "Behold I am coming quickly, and My reward is with me to render to every man according to what he has done.

-- Gail (Rothfarms@socket.net), January 09, 2005.


Gail,

Your verses don't do it.

They support my understanding of 1 Corinthians3:13-15 where we are told that our dees are judged, but not unto salvation. It is about rewards in heaven.

....his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's work. If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames.

I never said Christians don't face this kind of judgement. I am just saying that they are not part of the judgement of the dead. For one thing--we are not dead--we are alive in Christ. The other proof is that the passage says that the dead were judeged according to the books opened about them. The passagae also says that another book was open--the Book of Life. But it says nothing about those names found in that book being judged. It says that if your name is not found in that book then you are judged.

Revelation 20:12-15, " And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire."

Where do you see the Living in Christ being judged?

-- (faith01@myway.com), January 10, 2005.


Kevin,

The Scriptures tell us that the righteous are righteous because they are forgiven in Christ. The church does not face judgement unto salvation--they are saved. They are those found in the Book of Life.

I am not assuming anything. The passage in Revelation where the DEAD are judged, says nothing about the church--which, by-the-way--is not dead but alive. We are raised and are living. Even before we are raised we are found alive in spirit in Christ.

The Scriptures tell us that to be apart from the body (dead) is to be alive in Christ. So this judgement of the DEAD is something the church is not a part of.

For the Lord Himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command--with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

-- (faith01@myway.com), January 10, 2005.


Faith, I offered no commentary on the scriptures I provided, so I'm not sure what you mean by "your scriptures don't do it," since I was not really taking any position, other than to answer your statement "What does the Church have to be judged about?" which implies there is no judgment for the Christian.

-- Gail (Rothfarms@socket.net), January 10, 2005.

Faith, if the Revelations passage you quoted above do not refer to the judgment of the righteous, then when and where do the righteous receive their judgment?

-- Gail (Rothfarms@socket.net), January 10, 2005.

Do you mean their rewards?

I think it it happens at the same time. I refer you to your own verses, which have nothing to do with the judgement of the DEAD-- because all of God's people are saved. These verses have to do with rewards such as eternal life and being blessed as adopted children of God:

2 Cor. 5:10 For we must ALL (speaking to the the church) appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.

1 Peter 1:17 And if you address as Father the one who impartially judges according to each man's work, conduct yourselves in fear during the time of your stay upon earth.

Rev 22-12 "Behold I am coming quickly, and My reward is with me to render to every man according to what he has done.

The Bible is not quite specific as to *what* all of these rewards might entail, though we do have verses that speak to being predestined to different things. There may be things we aren't told about. And the Scriptures aren't exactly clear as to when this judgement of our works happens, only that it is the judgement of Christ.

-- (faith01@myway.com), January 10, 2005.


also Gail,

I only intended to say that the church is not judged unto salvation like the DEAD (those not found in Christ) are, because she is judged innocent in Christ.

-- (faith01@myway.com), January 10, 2005.


Hi Faith,

You think it "happens as the same time" as what . . .the judgment of the dead?

-- Gail (Rothfarms@socket.net), January 10, 2005.


Possibly.

The Bible isn't specific.

Perhaps it happens at the rapture?

It could be simultaneous with the endtime judgement.

I do not know.

The Bible says it happens at the judgement seat of Christ.

Jesus says, behold, I am coming soon to judge your deeds.

So I think it is at the end of the age, when Christ makes everything new and establishes His kingdom of heaven.

-- (faith01@myway.com), January 10, 2005.


"It could be simultaneous with the endtime judgement." I think that is probably true since the Book of Life is specifically mentioned in the Revelations passage. Plus if you look at the passages I provided earlier, I think they are definitely speaking of this final judgment, as does the parable of the separation of the sheep and goats, and as does Matthew 13 where the wicked are cast away.

One Protestant teaching on this passage is that the DEAD are all those who "physically" died before the 2nd coming, righteous and unrighteous. This is the time when all those who were asleep are reunited with their bodies. (As St. Paul says "We will not precede those who have fallen asleep.) Those who are resurrected to life will, at that time, receive glorified bodies. Those who had remained in pact with Satan, will, at that time, be resurrected to eternal damnation.

Gail

-- Gail (Rothfarms@socket.net), January 10, 2005.


Matthew 5 25-29 supports the above position that ALL will indeed be there at the Final Judgment.

25. Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear shall live. 26. For just as the Father has life in Himself, even so He gave to the Son also to have life in Himself; 27. and He gave Him authority to execute judgment, because He is the Son of Man. 28. Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming in which all who are in the tombs shall hear His voice, 29. and shall come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.

-- Gail (Rothfarms@socket.net), January 10, 2005.


Even that verse shows us that the church is not facing judgement-- only life in Christ.

Our deeds will be tested, and our rewards determined, but this has nothing to do with salvation.

-- (faith01@myway.com), January 10, 2005.


Nothing to do with salvation?

. . . "those who did the good deeds to a RESURRECTION OF LIFE, those who committed the evil deeds to a RESURRECTION OF JUDGMENT."

Salvation is RESURRECTION TO LIFE, Faith, and your DEEDS will either pave the way to heaven or pave the way to hell.

-- Gail (Rothfarms@socket.net), January 10, 2005.


"your DEEDS will either pave the way to heaven or pave the way to hell."

Amen Gail...

-- Kevin Walker ("navyscporetired@comcast.net"), January 10, 2005.


No Gail,

Salvation is deliverence from sin and the penalty/judgement thereof.

Resurrection to life is the blessing of salvation. Those who are resurrected to life are *not* judged.

-- (faith01@myway.com), January 11, 2005.


FAITH

at anchorstone.com they have an idea of the endtimes that is fully harmonized with the bible and explains the 2 versus regarding *jesus coming twice*

-- rina (hellorina@aol.com), January 11, 2005.


You have it backwards, Faith. We are judged FIRST, then we are resurrected to life, or death. Just read the quote. You put the cart before the horse.

2 Corin 5:10 For we must ALL appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.

Christ makes the method by which we ALL will be judged crystal clear in the separation of the sheep from the goats. The sheep are those who did good deeds, feeding the hungry, clothing the poor, etc., the goats are the ones who lived selfish lives, ignoring the plight of the impoverished.

Apparently Christ was not privy to the "salvation by faith alone" doctrine that would be espoused by Luther some 1500 years later, because He doesn't separate the goats from the sheep based on who had faith and who didn't, but rather He judges them according to what they did and did not DO!

Our deeds are a reflection of what we believe, and you simply cannot separate the two. "Not everyone who says to Me 'Lord, Lord' will enter the kingdom of heaven; but he who DOES the will of My father who is in heaven." Matt 7:21.

Gail

-- Gail (Rothfarms@socket.net), January 11, 2005.


Sorry Gail--

But you are ignoring the fact that there is no longer any condemnation for those who are found in Christ. The church is already judged perfect in Him. We are saved from this judgement that the unbelievers will face.

We are blessed with eternal life because we are saved. Our deeds will be evaluated--put through the fire--and we will be rewarded accordingly., but that is not the same judgement that the DEAD face.

You really need to harmonize all of God's revelation to get a complete picture.

-- (faith01@myway.com), January 12, 2005.


Sorry Faith,

"There is no condemnation for those who are found in Christ."

We must be found IN CHRIST, and what determines whether we are IN CHRIST? Paul doesn't say, does he? But that's okay because Jesus does tell us how to be found "in Christ," over and over and over again. See the above passages already provided -- We are judged according to what we did or did not DO!

Whether or not we are found IN CHRIST depends on our DEEDS! Not some mystical experience at an "altar call" which is an invention of your sect.

"Not everyone who says to Me 'Lord, Lord' will enter the kingdom of heaven; but he who DOES the will of My father who is in heaven."

You don't harmonize the scripture AT ALL, Faith, but merely take the ones you like and throw out the rest!

Gail

-- Gail (Rothfarms@socket.net), January 12, 2005.


Gail,

How can you miss the fact that those deeds do not determine whether or not someone is saved? They are just the evidence of salvation or not. You said it yourself--our deeds are a reflection of what we believe. And the Bible is clear that it is what we believe that determines our eternal fate.

Jesus doesn't need to look at our deeds to see if we belong to Him. He "knew" us before He even created the world. This is a heart and faith issue.

I think Paul is very clear on how we are to be *found* in Christ through faith:

Galatians 3:1-14

You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified. I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by observing the law, or by believing what you heard? Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit, are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort? Have you suffered so much for nothing–if it really was for nothing? Does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you because you observe the law, or because you believe what you heard?

Consider Abraham: “He believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness. ”Understand, then, that those who believe are children of Abraham. The Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: “All nations will be blessed through you. ”So those who have faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.

All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law. ”Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because, “The righteous will live by faith. ”The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, “The man who does these things will live by them. ”Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree. ”He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.

-- (faith01@myway.com), January 12, 2005.


Faith, We must trust and "obey" as the old song goes. That's all I'm saying. There is no false dictomy between "Believing" and "Obeying."

No, I surely do not trust in the law to save me, nor do I trust in my good works, for "surely they are as filthy rags before the Lord." I am in love with Jesus, as are you, and sanctification of my inner being will occur as I CONTINUE to obey! IT IS BY GOD'S GRACE that we are saved, as we enter into RELATIONSHIP to Him.

I think we really need to start a topic on sanctification which is the underlying issue of difference between your church and mine as regards to salvation. It's also a very interesting topic, and not nearly so toxic as some of the other things we discuss.

Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), January 13, 2005.


This is good Gail,

You seem to be in agreement that being saved is a present-tense thing, and from there, we simply live accordingly. We work out this salvation (present-tense) in our good works (some not-so-good, perhaps), and not to get saved, but because we are saved.

Sanctification is yet another topic.

-- (faith01@myway.com), January 13, 2005.


But I think there is a difference in what we both mean by "saved"

Reformation (not all) theology sees salvation or justification as a legal declaration -- even though we remain sinful, God looks at us, but only sees a cloak of righteousness. In other words, like Luther so vulgarly put it, "We are snow covered dung, and always will remain snow covered dung." That is why you can say "I'm saved," or "I got saved," because you are leaning on Luther's understanding. So since you have this "covering" an inner SCRUBBING is not necessary for salvation.

Catholocism, no the other hand (as well as a few Protestant circles, particularly Wesleyan) believe that actual SCRUBBING, or eradication of sin must occur. So then salvation is "through" sanctification (See 2 Thess 2:13) which of course was purchased at the cross of calvary. So while we have forgiveness of sins -- which we do because of God's GREAT mercy -- WE MUST die to ourselves and let Christ live through us. For "without holiness no one shall see God."

We believe that scripture shows that sanctification is a deep inner continual conversion to Christ as we "obey." That's what I mean when I say we are "continually BEING saved." Because our salvation and/or sanctification is contingent on staying IN RELATIOSHIP to God through faith and obedience.

For some people sanctification, or REAL holiness happens almost overnight it seems, but then for others, like me, it's a slow arduous task!

Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), January 13, 2005.


Gail,

You say:

But I think there is a difference in what we both mean by "saved" Reformation (not all) theology sees salvation or justification as a legal declaration -- even though we remain sinful, God looks at us, but only sees a cloak of righteousness. In other words, like Luther so vulgarly put it, "We are snow covered dung, and always will remain snow covered dung." That is why you can say "I'm saved," or "I got saved," because you are leaning on Luther's understanding. So since you have this "covering" an inner SCRUBBING is not necessary for salvation.

Salvation and justification are two different things. And what you seem to think that Protestants (not all) believe is not at all how I understand things. No one believes that *scrubbing*, as you put it, is unnessesary. We do not believe it is necessary for salvation--but we understand that it is a necessary result. If you don't see a changed life--then their salvation could not be real. I am not leaning on Luther at all. I know very little about him, actually.

Scripture is my guide to the truth and I lean on the Holy Spirit in me for understanding. The truth is Gail, that no matter how good we look, no matter how clean we think we can get by our own efforts--we are still as filthy rags before an Holy God. The very best we could possibly be--is not good enough! But with Christ in us--God looks at us and sees His Son's righteousness. This is what is revealed in the Bible, Gail.

Galatians 2:20-21

I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!”

Romans 3:21-31

Righteousness is through faith....

But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished– he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.

Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. On what principle? On that of observing the law? No, but on that of faith. For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law. Is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too, since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith. Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law.

Catholocism, no the other hand (as well as a few Protestant circles, particularly Wesleyan) believe that actual SCRUBBING, or eradication of sin must occur. So then salvation is "through" sanctification (See 2 Thess 2:13) which of course was purchased at the cross of calvary. So while we have forgiveness of sins -- which we do because of God's GREAT mercy -- WE MUST die to ourselves and let Christ live through us. For "without holiness no one shall see God."

We believe that scripture shows that sanctification is a deep inner continual conversion to Christ as we "obey." That's what I mean when I say we are "continually BEING saved." Because our salvation and/or sanctification is contingent on staying IN RELATIOSHIP to God through faith and obedience.

For some people sanctification, or REAL holiness happens almost overnight it seems, but then for others, like me, it's a slow arduous task!

Gail



-- (faith01@myway.com), January 14, 2005.


Gail,

You say:

But I think there is a difference in what we both mean by "saved" Reformation (not all) theology sees salvation or justification as a legal declaration -- even though we remain sinful, God looks at us, but only sees a cloak of righteousness. In other words, like Luther so vulgarly put it, "We are snow covered dung, and always will remain snow covered dung." That is why you can say "I'm saved," or "I got saved," because you are leaning on Luther's understanding. So since you have this "covering" an inner SCRUBBING is not necessary for salvation.

Salvation and justification are two different things. And what you seem to think that Protestants (not all) believe is not at all how I understand things. No one believes that *scrubbing*, as you put it, is unnessesary. We do not believe it is necessary for salvation--but we understand that it is a necessary result. If you don't see a changed life--then their salvation could not be real. I am not leaning on Luther at all. I know very little about him, actually.

Scripture is my guide to the truth and I lean on the Holy Spirit in me for understanding. The truth is Gail, that no matter how good we look, no matter how clean we think we can get by our own efforts--we are still as filthy rags before an Holy God. The very best we could possibly be--is not good enough! But with Christ in us--God looks at us and sees His Son's righteousness. This is what is revealed in the Bible, Gail.

Galatians 2:20-21

I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!”

Romans 3:21-31

Righteousness is through faith....

But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished– he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.

Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. On what principle? On that of observing the law? No, but on that of faith. For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law. Is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too, since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith. Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law.

Sorry for the repost, but I forgot to address this...

Catholocism, no the other hand (as well as a few Protestant circles, particularly Wesleyan) believe that actual SCRUBBING, or eradication of sin must occur. So then salvation is "through" sanctification (See 2 Thess 2:13) which of course was purchased at the cross of calvary. So while we have forgiveness of sins -- which we do because of God's GREAT mercy -- WE MUST die to ourselves and let Christ live through us. For "without holiness no one shall see God."

Sanctification is also another topic...

I will get back to this, gotta run and pick up my little all-star cheerleader : )

-- (faith01@myway.com), January 14, 2005.


"Jesus doesn't need to look at our deeds to see if we belong to Him."

Faith, you just don't get it do you??? If this is true, then why did God need to "test" Abraham to see if his faith was genuine???

Does God test our faith??? If you say no, then please provide scripture(s) to back up your belief...

We will "all" be judged by our works for that is exactly what the Bible teaches...

If you deny this is true, then you might as well just go ahead and call God a liar...

-- Kevin Walker ("navyscporetired@comcast.net"), January 15, 2005.


Kevin,

God doesn't test us so that He can see what we would do. He already knows the answer. He tests us so that we might learn something about ourselves.

-- (faith01@myway.com), January 16, 2005.


Also Kevin,

God said that we are judged righteous in His Son. We are saved because Christ is perfect, not because we could ever measure up on our own. Therefore, we are not judged unto salvation by our works, but by Christ's work at Calvary.

Our works or deeds are tested for their quality and we are *rewarded* in heaven, accordingly.

That's what God has revealed to me. To deny your claim is not to call God a liar--but it is to simply deny your claim. Unless of course, you are God. Then I suppose you could accuse me of calling God a liar- -since I disagree with you.

-- (faith01@myway.com), January 16, 2005.


Hi Faith,

Are there any scriptures that state we are "judged" by anything other than works? If there are any, I can't find a single one.

*****

Catholics also believe in an "initial" justification; i.e., that point in time when a new believer's sins are washed away. But then that justification (or being made right) is continued throughout the life of the believer, along with sanctification, the process of being made holy.

After the "initial justification", perseverence in holiness is an ABSOLUTE NECESSITY for salvation.

As St. Paul says in 1 Cor 9:26-27 "Therefore I run in such a way, as not within aim; I box in such a way, as not beating the air; but I buffet my body and make it my slave, less possibly, after I have preached to others, I myself should be disqualified."

St. Paul certainly does seem to believe by this passage and many others that "salvation is in the bag," does he? Otherwise, what is he talking about being disqualified from? Perseverence is necessary to reach the final goal.

Then in Hebrews 3:12 "Take care, brethren, lest there should be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart, in falling away from the living God."

and then 3:14 For we have become partakers of Christ, IF WE HOLD FAST, the beginning of our assurance FIRM TO THE END."

Again, perseverence is a requirement.

Matthew 10:22 And you will be hated by all on account of My name, but it is the one who has endured to the end WHO WILL BE SAVED.

James 1:12 Blessed is a man who perseveres under trial; FOR ONCE HE IS APPROVED, he will receive the crown of life, which the Lord has promised to those who love Him.

Also, Faith, there is the parable of Jesus where the "vine is thrown" into the fire that does not bear fruit.

So you see our initial justification where we are "acquitted" from all sin means nothing unless we persevere to the end bearing fruits worthy of holiness.

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), January 16, 2005.


Look at it this way, Gail.

Consider a tree. We know it *is* alive when we see the fruit it bears. It isn't alive because it bears fruit. It bears fruit because it is alive.

It's the same thing with us. We are alive in Christ because we *are*saved. The results of this is our good works and deeds. These things are not what saves us. These things come because we are saved.

1John3:11_

This is the message you heard from the beginning: We should love one another. Do not be like Cain, who belonged to the evil one and murdered his brother. And why did he murder him? Because his own actions were evil and his brother's were righteous. Do not be surprised, my brothers, if the world hates you. We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love our brothers. Anyone who does not love remains in death. Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life in him.

This is how we know what love is: Jesus Christ laid down his life for us. And we ought to lay down our lives for our brothers. If anyone has material possessions and sees his brother in need but has no pity on him, how can the love of God be in him? Dear children, let us not love with words or tongue but with actions and in truth. This then is how we know that we belong to the truth, and how we set our hearts at rest in his presence whenever our hearts condemn us. For God is greater than our hearts, and he knows everything.

Dear friends, if our hearts do not condemn us, we have confidence before God and receive from him anything we ask, because we obey his commands and do what pleases him. And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us. Those who obey his commands live in him, and he in them. And this is how we know that he lives in us: We know it by the Spirit he gave us.

***************************************

The Scriptures indicate that the church is not judged unto salvation at all Gail. The Scriptures tell us that we are no longer to be judged or condemned if we are found in Him. And the Scriptures tell us how we can have the confidence and know that we are in Him-- because anyone who truly is in Him will bear the fruit of the Spirit in him.

-- (faith01@myway.com), January 16, 2005.


John 5:24

“I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life.

1 John 2:1-2

My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have one who speaks to the Father in our defense–Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

1John 3:2-3

Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when he appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is. Everyone who has this hope in him purifies himself, just as he is pure.

1John 2:3-6

We know that we have come to know him if we obey his commands. The man who says, “I know him,” but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But if anyone obeys his word, God's love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him: Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did.

Why? Do we walk like Jesus in order to be found in Him? No--walking like Jesus is proof that we are in Him., and this is the fruit that will give us that confidence and hope.

-- (faith01@myway.com), January 16, 2005.


Faith, the scriptures I provided show that PERSEVERANCE is a necessity, do they not?

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), January 16, 2005.

In 1 Cor 9:26-27, Paul is not refering to His salvation when he speaks of being disqualified. He is refering to his heavenly rewards, his crown, which is determined by whether or not our works hold up under the fire--the test--or not.

Standing firm until the end is not a way to be saved, but it is the evidence that a person is really committed to Jesus. Persistence is not a means to earn salvation; it is the by-product of a truly devoted life.

-- (faith01@myway.com), January 16, 2005.


So when you say Paul is talking about his "crown," is that the same crown that James is talking about here: "Blessed is a man who perseveres under trial; FOR ONCE HE IS APPROVED, he will receive the CROWN of life, which the Lord has promised to those who love Him."

Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), January 16, 2005.


Yes Gail,

I guess eternal life can be considered a crown or reward that those who are saved will receive. There are many other things mentioned as well. I also believe there are things we can and will receive that are not mentioned. There are many rewards, such as becoming adopted children of God. Some people think that there are different levels in heaven for all of us, based on our works.

In any case--the rewards or crowns are not salvation itself. We receive them because we are saved.

-- (faith01@myway.com), January 16, 2005.


So since James says "Blessed is a man who perseveres under trial; FOR ONCE HE IS APPROVED, he will receive the CROWN of life, which the Lord has promised to those who love Him."

So if a man does NOT persevere under trial, he will NOT be approved, and hence will NOT receive the Crown of Life?

Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), January 16, 2005.


The crown of life is promised to those who love God--but we do have to wait until this life is through, until we have finished the race of life and have perservered through all it has to offer. Not until we reach the finish line--can we receive our reward. This is why a man is *blessed* or another way to put it--*happy* to have perservered or made it through., because now he can finally recieve his reward. He can finally go home to be with His Lord.

A man who is not approved was not saved. He didn't perservere because he did not belong to God, He did not love God.

-- (faith01@myway.com), January 16, 2005.


Okay, so the "proof is in the pudding;" i.e. whether or not you make it to the finished line?

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), January 16, 2005.

The finish line is death. We will all make it to that--unless the rapture occurs in our lifetime.

Of those who are saved., there are many whose deeds will not survive the fire. The Scriptures tell us that they are still be saved, but I suppose they won't get much in the way of rewards.

Those who were not found in Christ--well, the Scriptures tell us of their fate.

But yes--I like that. The proof is in the pudding.

-- (faith01@myway.com), January 16, 2005.


I think we're on the same page: We have to "make it to the finish line," thereby "proving what's in the pudding" in order to "receive the crown of life."

So how can you say "I am saved, (past tense)" if you have not yet made it to the finish line (future)?

Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), January 16, 2005.


Because making it to the finish line does not mean, "Yes! I'm saved."

It means, "Yes! Now I'm gonna finally receive my reward."

And we will receive that reward because we are saved.

-- (faith01@myway.com), January 16, 2005.


But that's not my question.

"A man who is not approved was not saved. He didn't perservere because he did not belong to God, He did not love God."

Whether or not the man PERSERVERES remains to be seen throughout the course of his life, right? Whether or not he makes it to the finish line?

My question is how can you, right know, know whether you will perservere to the end or not? How can you say "Oh, yes, I am saved," when you have not yet reached the finish line?

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), January 16, 2005.


I know right now that I will perservere until the end--because I am saved. How do I know I am saved? I know by my fruit. I know by the Spirit He has given me.

1John 2:3-6

We know that we have come to know him if we obey his commands. The man who says, “I know him,” but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But if anyone obeys his word, God's love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him: Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did.

-- (faith01@myway.com), January 16, 2005.


Faith wrote, "God doesn't test us so that He can see what we would do. He already knows the answer. He tests us so that we might learn something about ourselves."

Scripture please that proves your assertion???

Faith wrote, "Also Kevin, God said that we are judged righteous in His Son. We are saved because Christ is perfect, not because we could ever measure up on our own. Therefore, we are not judged unto salvation by our works, but by Christ's work at Calvary. Our works or deeds are tested for their quality and we are *rewarded* in heaven, accordingly."

Obviously you missed this verse in 2 Corinthians 5:10 which states, "For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad."

Faith wrote, "That's what God has revealed to me. To deny your claim is not to call God a liar--but it is to simply deny your claim. Unless of course, you are God. Then I suppose you could accuse me of calling God a liar- -since I disagree with you."

Obviously what God has revealed to you cannot be found in His word... I never said that I was God...

I stated you are calling God a liar because He plainly stated that we will "all" stand before Jesus and be judged...

All means all...

God says in John 5:28-29, "Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth--those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation."

Those who are judged to have done "good" will be saved, those who have done "evil" will be thrown into the lake of fire... Everyone will be judged and this includes the church...

To deny this is to deny what is plainly revealed in Scripture...

-- Kevin Walker ("navyscporetired@comcast.net"), January 16, 2005.


But Faith, John does not tell his audience "You WILL perservere because you are already SAVED," which statement you have made concerning yourself.

He says "We know that we have come to know him IF we obey his commands." PRESENT TENSE AND ITS CONDITIONAL.

"The man who says, “I know him,” but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in him." PRESENT TENSE AND ITS CONDITIONAL.

"But if anyone obeys his word, God's love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him: Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did. PRESENT TENSE AND ITS CONDITIONAL.

Yes, these passages we can apply to ourselves in the HERE AND NOW, WITH THE CONDITION THAT IF, IF, IF WE OBEY, but these passages do not even remotely suggest that a person can presumptuously look into the future and assume that they will finish the course because they HAVE ALREADY BEEN SAVED." In fact, if John believed THAT, there would be no reason to give these admonitions.

*********

"Blessed is a man who perseveres under trial; FOR ONCE HE IS APPROVED, he will receive the CROWN of life, which the Lord has promised to those who love Him."

This man 1) perserveres under trial 2) is approved 3) receives the crown. He is not "saved" first, then perserveres, then is approved, and then receives the crown.

"For we have become partakers of Christ, IF WE HOLD FAST, the beginning of our assurance FIRM TO THE END." No cause for presumption here either.

*******

How is your position that "I WILL PERSERVERE BECAUSE I AM SAVED," any different from Calvin's "I AM SAVED BECAUSE I AM THE ELECTED?"

Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), January 16, 2005.


Gail,

You are correct...

Salvation is conditional...

-- Kevin Walker ("navyscporetired@comcast.net"), January 16, 2005.


Gail,

I just think you are highlighting the wrong parts of those Scriptures- -because it is clear that in the present tense--we can know that we are saved by the fruit in our lives.

The works, deeds and fruit are evidence of a saved person. We can know for certain that we are in Him--if we are walking in His way. Salvation enables us to do so, because in being saved--we are delivered from the power of sin and its penalty. We put on the righteousness of Christ and He lives in us. That is why we can and do follow Him.

Those verses all speak to how we can know.

And striving 'till the end is simply speaking about living out our faith until death--where we will receive our crown of life. This is because we are saved, and that did not hing on anything we do. It was based on whether or not we believed in and received Christ as our Savior.

How could the Scriptures declare that we can know we are in Him by our works--if we had to wait until the end?

I think the problem stems from a lack of understanding as to what is salvation?? Salvation is salvation--eternal life is a blessing to those who are saved.

-- (faith01@myway.com), January 17, 2005.


"How could the Scriptures declare that we can know we are in Him by our works--if we had to wait until the end?"

Paul, even though he was an Apostle of Jesus Christ knew that he was not automatically saved once he obeyed the gospel of Christ for he stated in Philippians 3:12-14, "12 Not that I have already attained, or am already perfected; but I press on, that I may lay hold of that for which Christ Jesus has also laid hold of me. 13 Brethren, I do not count myself to have apprehended; but one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind and reaching forward to those things which are ahead, 14 I press toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus."

Paul knew that his obedience to the gospel did not automatically make him "saved" as you assert.

Paul also knew that he could become disqualified for eternal life for he wrote in 1 Corinthians 9:24-27, "24 Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may obtain it. 25 And everyone who competes for the prize is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a perishable crown, but we for an imperishable crown. 26 Therefore I run thus: not with uncertainty. Thus I fight: not as one who beats the air. 27 But I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest, when I have preached to others, I myself should become disqualified."

Paul had to discipline his body and obey the commandments of God in order to be saved on judgment day...

-- Kevin Walker ("navyscporetired@comcast.net"), January 17, 2005.


No Faith, in light of all the scripture that emphatically state we MUST endure to the end, it is not MY interpretation that needs adjustment -- with all due respect -- it's your's.

When I say salvation (deliverance from sin and bondage AND SANCTIFICATION -- look it up in Strong's) is an ongoing process, I base that on the abundance of scripture, and WHAT THE WORD MEANS IN THE ORIGINAL LANGUAGE.

There is no scripture to support your notion that you can look ahead to the future and assume you will make it to the finish line, and as you have already rightfully admitted, making it to the finish line is a prerequisite for receiving the crown of life.

Your motion that an "altar call" experience GUARANTEES your salvation is extrabiblical and loosely stems from Calvin/Luther.

Again, there is no reason for the writers of the N.T. to admonish, warn and exhort their readers to "make to the finish line" if their salvation was already GUARANTEED at the altar.

Gail

P.S. Gotta run, sick hubby! (This flu thing is a real doozy this year)

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), January 17, 2005.


Zechariah's Song...

Luke 1:67-

His father Zechariah was filled with the Holy Spirit and prophesied: “Praise be to the Lord, the God of Israel, because he has come and has redeemed his people. He has raised up a horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David (as he said through his holy prophets of long ago), salvation from our enemies and from the hand of all who hate us– to show mercy to our fathers and to remember his holy covenant, the oath he swore to our father Abraham: to rescue us from the hand of our enemies, and to enable us to serve him without fear in holiness and righteousness before him all our days.

And you, my child, will be called a prophet of the Most High; for you will go on before the Lord to prepare the way for him, to give his people the knowledge of salvation through the forgiveness of their sins, because of the tender mercy of our God, by which the rising sun will come to us from heaven to shine on those living in darkness and in the shadow of death, to guide our feet into the path of peace.”

And the child grew and became strong in spirit; and he lived in the desert until he appeared publicly to Israel.

******************************

Acts 4:12

Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved.”

Romans 1:16-17

I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. For in the gospel a righteousness from God is revealed, a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: “The righteous will live by faith.”

2 Cor 6:2

For he says, “In the time of my favor I heard you, and in the day of salvation I helped you.” I tell you, now is the time of God's favor, now is the day of salvation.

Hebrews 6:9-12

Even though we speak like this, dear friends, we are confident of better things in your case–things that accompany salvation. God is not unjust; he will not forget your work and the love you have shown him as you have helped his people and continue to help them. We want each of you to show this same diligence to the very end, in order to make your hope sure. We do not want you to become lazy, but to imitate those who through faith and patience inherit what has been promised.

1 Peter 1:3-9

Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, and into an inheritance that can never perish, spoil or fade–kept in heaven for you, who through faith are shielded by God's power until the coming of the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time. In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while you may have had to suffer grief in all kinds of trials. These have come so that your faith–of greater worth than gold, which perishes even though refined by fire–may be proved genuine and may result in praise, glory and honor when Jesus Christ is revealed. Though you have not seen him, you love him; and even though you do not see him now, you believe in him and are filled with an inexpressible and glorious joy, for you are receiving the goal of your faith, the salvation of your souls.

-- (faith01@myway.com), January 17, 2005.


"His father Zechariah was filled with the Holy Spirit and prophesied: “Praise be to the Lord, the God of Israel, because he has come and has redeemed his people. He has raised up a horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David (as he said through his holy prophets of long ago), salvation from our enemies and from the hand of all who hate us– to show mercy to our fathers and to remember his holy covenant, the oath he swore to our father Abraham: to rescue us from the hand of our enemies, and to enable us to serve him without fear in holiness and righteousness before him all our days."

Are you suggesting that ALL OF ISRAEL is ALREADY REDEEMED?

******************************

Acts 4:12

Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved.” AMEN!

Romans 1:16-17

I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. For in the gospel a righteousness from God is revealed, a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: “The righteous will live by faith.” YES, THEY WILL LIVE BY FAITH, AND AS ST. PAUL LATER SAYS THEY MUST ENDURE TO THE END!

2 Cor 6:2

For he says, “In the time of my favor I heard you, and in the day of salvation I helped you.” I tell you, now is the time of God's favor, now is the day of salvation. DON'T PUT OFF GOD! DON'T PROCRASTINATE, ANSWER THE CALL OF GOD TODAY!

Hebrews 6:9-12

Even though we speak like this, dear friends, we are confident of better things in your case–things that accompany salvation. God is not unjust; he will not forget your work and the love you have shown him as you have helped his people and continue to help them. WE WANT EACH OF YOU TO SHOW THIS SAME DILIGENCE TO THE VERY END, IN ORDER TO MAKE YOUR HOPE SURE. We do not want you to become lazy, but to imitate those who through faith and patience inherit what has been promised. THANKS FOR FINDING THIS SCRIPTURE. IT'S A GOOD ONE!

1 Peter 1:3-9

Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, and into an inheritance that can never perish, spoil or fade–kept in heaven for you, who through faith are shielded by God's power UNTIL THE COMING OF THE SALVATION THAT IS READY TO BE REVEALED IN THE LAST TIME. In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while you may have had to suffer grief in all kinds of trials. These have come so that your faith–of greater worth than gold, which perishes even though refined by fire–may be proved genuine and may result in praise, glory and honor when Jesus Christ is revealed. Though you have not seen him, you love him; and even though you do not see him now, you believe in him and are filled with an inexpressible and glorious joy, FOR YOU ARE RECEIVING (PRESENT TENSE) the goal of your faith, the salvation of your souls.

ANSWER: I am so glad you brought up 1 Peter. This word "salvation" specifically means SANCTIFICATION according to Strong's!!! Look it up if you don't believe me.

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), January 17, 2005.


Are you suggesting that ALL OF ISRAEL is ALREADY REDEEMED?

Only those who are found in Christ at the end of the age.

It's a faith thing, not a works thing--which all these verses reveal.

I hope you also realize that to be sanctified means to be set aside, to be assured of salvation, to be washed clean through faith in Jesus Christ and His blood.

-- (faith01@myway.com), January 17, 2005.


We're not talking about faith and works though, are we? I am quite aware of the fact that one cannot work oneself to heaven. If that were the case, Christ died in vain. Likewise, the law cannot save us either. "Oh wretched sinner that I am," I would be utterly doomed to destruction. We must HAVE faith, and we MUST DO works working through the abundant grace that God supplies. These three do not impeach each other, but they uphold one another -- faith, hope and charity.

And I agree with you concerning Israel, their redemption or "salvation" has yet to be seen. I don't know what your purpose of quoting that verse was.

As to sanctification, yes I know precisely what it means. Here it is according to Strong's.

Sanctify = Hagiazo = to make holy, purify, sanctify, hallowed, to set apart, to, to venerate. It is state to which God call's us.

*****

Faith, getting back to what we were discussing, you have stated that "finishing the race" is a necessary in order to receive the crown of life, but you have yet to show me scripturally where you can assume that because you received initial justification that that is a guaranty. And you still have explained to me why there the writers felt a need to exhort their audience to "finish" since that was already a given.

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), January 17, 2005.


I posted Zechariah's song because it reveals just what is salvation., just how it is promised and received. We have knowledge of our salvation because our sins are forgiven in Christ. If you are forgiven--you are set free., and will not be judged unto salvation. The thing that Christians face is a judgement of their works. But this has nothing to do with salvation. If we are in Christ we are saved., set aside., preserved from condemnation or the endtime judgement that the DEAD face.

-- (faith01@myway.com), January 17, 2005.

Faith, are you getting all of that from Zechariah's song?

I can see how and when the promise was made, and I can see that Christ is the redeemer, and I can what salvation is: i.e,

"salvation from our enemies and from the hand of all who hate us to show mercy to our fathers and to remember his holy covenant, the oath he swore to our father Abraham: to rescue us from the hand of our enemies, and to enable us to serve him without fear in holiness and righteousness before him all our days." 1) Salvation from our enemies; 2) to rescue us from the hand of our enemies; 3) to enable us to SERVE him without fear in holiness and righteousness before him ALL OUR DAYS.

But where in the Zachariah quote are you getting this: 1. And will not be judged unto salvation. 2. The thing that Christians face is a judgement of their works. But this has nothing to do with salvation. 3. If we are in Christ we are saved., set aside., preserved from condemnation or the endtime judgement that the DEAD face.

All you did was recite the same old rhetoric and throw out a passage from scripture that in no way supports it!

-- gAIL (rothfarms@socket.net), January 17, 2005.


What I make the mistake of is not posting every Scripture verse I am thinking of. My understanding comes from a harmonizing of God's total Word. If we isolate certain verses Gail., we can make the Bible say what we choose to make it say.

But when you harmonize His Word--then you can begin to see His full revelation.

I posted quite a bit of other verses that show us that salvation comes by faith in jesus Christ who was promised from the begining.

It has nothing to do with our works. That is what I am trying to impress. Our salvation does not depend on how good we are. We can know we are saved.

-- (faith01@myway.com), January 17, 2005.


Zechariah's Song... Luke 1:67-

His father Zechariah was filled with the Holy Spirit and prophesied: “Praise be to the Lord, the God of Israel, because he has come and has redeemed his people. He has raised up a horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David (as he said through his holy prophets of long ago), salvation from our enemies and from the hand of all who hate us– to show mercy to our fathers and to remember his holy covenant, the oath he swore to our father Abraham: to rescue us from the hand of our enemies, and to enable us to serve him without fear in holiness and righteousness before him all our days.

And you, my child, will be called a prophet of the Most High; for you will go on before the Lord to prepare the way for him, to give his people the knowledge of salvation through the forgiveness of their sins, because of the tender mercy of our God, by which the rising sun will come to us from heaven to shine on those living in darkness and in the shadow of death, to guide our feet into the path of peace.”

And the child grew and became strong in spirit; and he lived in the desert until he appeared publicly to Israel.

This is pointing to the saving faith in Jesus Christ--to our being baptized-which is being born again. We have the assurance of salvation because our sins are forgiven in Christ.

-- (faith01@myway.com), January 17, 2005.


Well, you are sort of preachin' to the choir here, Faith. I know we have forgiveness of sins through Christ and I know that salvation is through Jesus Christ. I also know that we have ASSURANCE of salvation as long as we REMAIN IN HIM.

I am asking you for scripture that supports a GUARANTEE THAT YOU WILL REMAIN in Him. There is none!

Again, Faith, why would the writers of the N.T. carefully insist that the believer remain on the course of that course was a given?

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), January 17, 2005.


As I have said--I don't think salvation is the reward in the end. I think it is our salvation that makes it possible that we will come to the end and receive our inheritence. We are instructed to work out our salvation well., to fight the good fight and to finish strong. We can be confident(present-tense)of our salvation in this. Our heavenly rewards await us....

-- (faith01@myway.com), January 17, 2005.

Faith, the crown of life that James speaks about here:

"Blessed is a man who perseveres under trial; FOR ONCE HE IS APPROVED, he will receive the crown of life, which the Lord has promised to those who love Him,"

has to be salvation, because if it isn't then you have some that are "saved" but do not receive "life". Not to mention that you still cannot reckon all the other passages into a "once-saved-always- saved" modality either. This doctrine, like the pre-2nd coming rapture theology, are simply new fad doctrines that are carrying people away in droves! The net result is staggering!

Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), January 17, 2005.


And that is a very sobering message!! We can't go around thinking that we have it in the bag and that's that. It would be very foolish to think OSAS. This is why I do listen to the "obedience" doctrine Kevin keeps preaching. That's some of what I do accept from Kevin's doctrine. And, the Catholic doctrine does make the message clear about keeping ourselves obedient. It must be a lifestyle involving "works" and "faith".

..............

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), January 17, 2005.


But Gail.., James is simply saying that happy is the man who perservered--or--made it 'till the end-- because now he will receive the crown of life--which he was promised when he was approved. So when was he approved? He was approved the moment he believed....not at the end of his life or because of anything he did. We are not saved by our works. The crown of life--or eternal life--is a blessing that those who are saved will receive..,when they die. We are saved because we are found in Christ and our sins have been forgiven.

-- (faith01@myway.com), January 17, 2005.

"Blessed is a man who perseveres under trial; FOR ONCE HE IS APPROVED, he will receive the crown of life, which the Lord has promised to those who love Him.

Why do you keep ignoring the first part of the sentence?

The man is approved after he Perseveres, and then he receives the crown.

Happy -- to be envied, joyous, ecstatic, fullfilled is the man -- or woman who perserveres -- who stays the course under -- while undergoing trial -- hard times, troubles hardships. for -- because once -- when, after he -- or she is approved -- found acceptable he -- or she will receive -- get, obtain, acquire the crown -- a symbol of victory of life -- (Greek zoe), life as from the Father, the same life that flows through the Lord.

He is approved because he has STAYED THE COURSE! Do you see any other reason in this passage that he is approved?

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), January 17, 2005.


Yes I do Gail., he is approved because he believes in Jesus Christ and loves God., which bears itself out in perserverence.

And the crown of life--eternal life--comes not because he perservered- -but because he was forgiven in Christ. He washed his robe--was purified in Christ the moment he believed. He was approved based on His love for God. He perservered because he was saved. And with great joy he receives his reward which is to be with God.

Jesus says:

Rev 22:12-16

“Behold, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to everyone according to what he has done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.

“Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city.

Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood. (unbelievers)

“I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.”

-- (faith01@myway.com), January 17, 2005.


Faith, quite honestly I do not want your commentary on this passage. I know quite well what you "think," but I am truly only interested in what it plainly states, without your pouring your own meanings into the words and phrases.

The Bible does not teach that you are GUARANTEED A FINISHED COURSE simply because you, at one time, made a profession of faith. Endurance is a must. Not to endure, is to take your own immortal soul in your hands, and like St. Paul states "disqualify yourself."

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), January 17, 2005.


You confuse salvation with eternal blessings.

I don't understand how you don't see that what you are saying is nothing short of a works ethic and salvation based on what we do, on our own efforts.

James doesn't contradict Paul--he simply comes at it from the other end, a different perspective. He says that faith is revealed by our works. Not that we are saved by those works though--we are saved by our faith in Jesus and His work, so that no one may boast.

-- (faith01@myway.com), January 17, 2005.


St. James taught that because he was correcting that false belief that all that was needed was faith. His audience didn't think "works" was necessary. St. Paul on the other hand was dealing with the converse. His audience believed that "works" was the only way to go. Yes, both were under the same doctrine.

..........

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), January 17, 2005.


Faith, here are some more scriptures that prove my point that "salvation is not in the bag"

JAMES 5:19 My brethren, if any AMONG YOU STRAYS FROM THE TRUTH, and one turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will SAVE HIS SOUL FROM DEATH, and will cover over a multitude of sins. HOW CAN ONE SAVE THE BACKSLIDER? BY TURNING HIM BACK TO THE TRUTH!

JAMES 1:14-16 . . . but each one is tempted when, by his own evil desire, he is dragged away and enticed. Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to DEATH. Don’t be deceived, my dear brothers. WHO IS JAMES TALKING TO? "MY DEAR BROTHERS!"

Romans 8:13: For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live. WHY DO YOU NEED TO PUT TO DEATH THE SINS OF THE BODY? SO THAT YOU WILL NOT DIE!

GALATIONS 5:19 - 21 The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God. WHO IS PAUL TALKING TO? BELIEVERS.

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), January 17, 2005.


Gail?

Like I said--we could play Bible verse volleyball all day long. What for?

Understanding comes when you harmonize all of Scripture.

It just boils down to understanding..

For example:

You say:

Romans 8:13: For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live. WHY DO YOU NEED TO PUT TO DEATH THE SINS OF THE BODY? SO THAT YOU WILL NOT DIE!

But I say that context is everything and it answers your question:

For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live, because those who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God. For you did not receive a spirit that makes you a slave again to fear, but you received the Spirit of sonship. And by him we cry, “Abba, Father.” The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children. Now *if* we are children, then we are heirs–heirs of God and coheirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.

-- (faith01@myway.com), January 17, 2005.


Rod,

Actually Paul was dealing with the works of the Jewish Law and James is dealing with works of obedience...

Gail,

You are wasting your time trying to convince Faith of her error... It is obvious that her mind is closed and she will not change her belief no matter how many scriptures you show that her belief is not in accordance with what God has revealed concerning what one must do to continue in His good grace and be saved on judgment day...

-- Kevin Walker ("navyscporetired@comcast.net"), January 17, 2005.


Well, that's all well and fine except for you forgot to italicize one small very insignificant part of the text.

It's the last phrase: "IF indeed we share in his sufferings IN ORDER THAT WE may also share in his glory." Do you see the condition here?

Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), January 17, 2005.


Gail,

I posted on another thread to Faith that this one little word always seems to trip her up and she just does not understand it...

That one little word is "if"...

There are many "if" warnings in the New Testament...

-- Kevin Walker ("navyscporetired@comcast.net"), January 17, 2005.


Hi Kevin,

Yes that little word packs a powerful punch, doesn't it? Two little letters, but oh boy do they change the "context."

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), January 17, 2005.


I just find it funny that you can't get yourself around the full revelation in even just this little passage.

You neglect that this verse is declaring that we *are* children of God and that we *are* heirs to his promise. If you see that you walk the walk and talk the talk--you can *know* by this that you *are* saved.

The passage says that those who are led by the Spirit--*are* sons of God. This language is present-tense.

Nowhere does it say that *if* we walk His way we might be sons of God in the end.

This is how we know.

-- (faith01@myway.com), January 18, 2005.


"IF INDEED WE SHARE IN HIS SUFFERINGS IN ORDER THAT WE MAY ALSO SHARE IN HIS GLORY," is the tail-end of your quote. Do you see it? The "If" clause is a condition for the promises mentioned heretofore.

What I find so exasparating is that whenever you find a "condition" and there are numerous, it is as if you become literally bias-blind. You have tunnel vision. You zero in on what you are looking for to the exclusion of the rest of the scripture. What is so ironic here is that you posted the above quote, then lecture me on context, without apparently having read the thing yourself. Because if you had read it in-toto, you would have seen the tail-end of the thing and probably not posted it at all.

*****

Yes, I know we are son's and/or daughters of God, and I know we are "heirs" with Christ -- IF WE SHARE IN HIS SUFFERINGS according to scripture!

I have never had the "once-saved-always-saved" bias before because I NEVER believed that even as a Protestant. It seems to lead to a sort of smug "I know I'll perservere because I'm saved," mentality that is odious, obnoxious, arrogant, self-righteous and pitifully unscriptural.

Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), January 18, 2005.


No Gail..the *if* in these verses confirms the first fact--that we are sons of God and heirs to His promises.

It doesn't say that we are sons and heirs if we do this and that. It says that if we find ourselves doing this and that--it is because we are sons and heirs.

Read for context and consider all other biblical revelation

-- (faith01@myway.com), January 18, 2005.


"If" does not translate "because". I depend on the actual meaning of the word and not what I want it to mean.

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), January 18, 2005.

Whoops, I shouldn't assume that you will take my word for it that "if" and "because" mean totally different things so here they are:

"If" -- expressing a condition, supposition or hypothesis "on condition that" or "supposing that" (Webster's)

"Because" -- for the reason or cause that; on account of; the fact that; since, by reason of. (Webster's)

Now, assuming that you can see now that you CANNOT replace IF with BECAUSE, because they do not even remotely mean the same thing let's take another look at your passage:

For if (supposing that or on condition that) you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if (supposing that) by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live, because (on account that) those who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God. For you did not receive a spirit that makes you a slave again to fear, but you received the Spirit of sonship. And by him we cry, “Abba, Father.” The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children. Now if (supposing that) we are children, then we are heirs–heirs of God and coheirs with Christ, IF (ON CONDITION THAT or SUPPOSING THAT) indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.

There are many conditions and/or requirements for salvation, Faith, and they are ONGOING, you are just too blind to see them -- to your own peril and those in your sect!

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), January 18, 2005.


Gail--

*If* you are walking with Christ--it is because you belong to Him.

-- (faith01@myway.com), January 19, 2005.


Judas walked with Jesus.

...........

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), January 19, 2005.


Only in body....not by faith. This proves the point, don't you think?

We could break our buts trying to follow Jesus and we could prophecy in His name and even perform miracles--yet, He can still turn to you and say, "Depart from Me--for I never knew you!"

It's a faith-relation thing. All the good works in the world mean nothing if they are done apart from Christ.

Judas did not know Jesus.

-- (faith01@myway.com), January 19, 2005.


It provides evidence that walking with Jesus involves two things: faith and works. It isn't enough to do those works, which Judas did as an Apostle; faith is also part of the equation, which Judas lacked.

So, as you make the attempt to tweak your interpretation to match your "Sola Fide" doctrine, your point lacks substance. Judas follow Jesus in works. Had Judas worked on his faith, things might have been different. Another "Judas" would have entered the scene.

...........

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), January 19, 2005.


It is God's grace that saves us, and God's grace that continues to save us, IF we continue to respond to that grace, and even IF I do continue to respond to that grace . . . it is only by grace.

GRACE, GRACE AND MORE GRACE!

If I fall away from that grace, then I become like the poor pitiful creature in Hebrews, "For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repetance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God, and put Him to open shame.

2 Peter 2:21 For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, that having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment delivered to them.

1 Peter 4:17 For it is time for judgment to begin with the household of God SAY WHAT? and if it begins with us first, what will be the outcome for those who do not obey the gospel of God.

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), January 19, 2005.


God's grace is given freely to those who have believed.

-- (faith01@myway.com), January 19, 2005.

Also Gail,

1 Peter 4:17 refers not to final judgement--but to God's refining discipline as seen in Hebrews 12:7:

Endure hardship as discipline; God is treating you as sons. For what son is not disciplined by his father?

If believers need earthly discipline (judgement) from God, how much more will unbelievers receive it? If it is hard for the righteous to be saved--and only by God's mercy--what chance do those who reject Christ have?

That's the point of that Scripture.

1 Peter 4:17-19 for context:

For it is time for judgment to begin with the family of God; and if it begins with us, what will the outcome be for those who do not obey the gospel of God? And, “If it is hard for the righteous to be saved, what will become of the ungodly and the sinner?”

So then, those who suffer according to God's will should commit themselves to their faithful Creator and continue to do good.

-- (faith01@myway.com), January 19, 2005.


"Judgment" according to Strong's = The process of judgment leading to a decision, the pronouncement of the decision, the verdict, the decision resulting from an investigation.

"Discipline" = instruction, nurture, correction.

Perhaps you should invest in a good dictionary and a good concordance rather than speculating your own meanings into words, which is a very dangerous undertaking indeed!

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), January 19, 2005.


Maybe Gail--you should remember that there is plenty of judgement in the Scriptures--not all pertaining to the final judgement.

This Scripture is clearly talking about earthly judgement as we live-- not endtime judgement which is only for the unbelievers.

2Peter 2:4-10

For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them into gloomy dungeons to be held for judgment; if he did not spare the ancient world when he brought the flood on its ungodly people, but protected Noah, a preacher of righteousness, and seven others; if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly; and if he rescued Lot, a righteous man, who was distressed by the filthy lives of lawless men (for that righteous man, living among them day after day, was tormented in his righteous soul by the lawless deeds he saw and heard)– if this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue godly men from trials and to hold the unrighteous for the day of judgment, while continuing their punishment. This is especially true of those who follow the corrupt desire of the sinful nature and despise authority.

-- (faith01@myway.com), January 19, 2005.


I never said it was the "final judgment" did I?

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), January 19, 2005.

We were talking about salvation, Gail. What is salvation from?

It is from the penalty of sin--which is death!

You are either saved and you escape this final judgement or you are not and you are eternally separated from God.

-- (faith01@myway.com), January 19, 2005.


For it is time for judgment to begin with the HOUSEHOLD OF GOD and if it begins with us first, what will be the outcome for those who do not obey the gospel of God.

Sounds like it would be a good idea to keep short accounts with God!

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), January 19, 2005.


Sounds like this judgement is here and now, on the earth.

It has nothing to do with the final judgement of the endtimes., and as you can see by the passage--those who are saved have a hard enough time with the trials of testing--forget it if you aren't saved.

-- (faith01@myway.com), January 19, 2005.


Om closing this thead in a little whiole, a few more posts, to let you know.a A new one will, be opened as soon as I do, to allow the ocnversaiton to continue unless it wraps efore I close it. Just this is getting long, like the origional thread.

Its a straight on eberyones bandwidth.

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), January 19, 2005.


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