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Hello. I'm quite new to this board and have a couple questions. I hope I'm posting in the correct area. :/ First off, I consider myself a Christian- though have no actual denomination. I've believed in God and Jesus all of my life and am now just starting to try and take it more seriously since religion is something you should practice in life and not apart from it. I believe the bible is true, that Jesus died for my sins, and have asked him into my heart and confessed to him several times. Though even having done that I don't feel secure. And I'm told that if you ARE saved you SHOULD feel secure. Am I not saved because I'm insecure about going to heaven? I'm sure that after a while I'll be able to sort it out and become strengthened in my faith.. but what if I died RIGHT now? I guess the best way to explain it would be.. rather than having the heart knowledge and not the head knowledge. I have the head knowledge and not the heart knowledge (if that makes any sense at all). I believe in him in a mental aspect, but I don't feel the actual love or awesomeness that comes with it. A have a couple other friends that tell me an actual change will occur when I'm spirtually baptised or after I give up worldly things that I've chained myself to. But what about the HERE and NOW? So I guess the question is.. What should someone like me do to be secure? Asked by Steph Y(Zellos@hotmail.com) on September 13, 2004.

-- Steph Y (Zellos@hotmail.com), September 16, 2004

Answers

...Dont worry so muh and keep focised on Chist, he is our surety The rest tends to isself.

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), September 16, 2004.

Follow Christ...

And the only way to know what that means is to study His Word. You should have a great hunger for Him......

-- ("faith01@myway.com'), September 16, 2004.


...The mere fact that you accept Christ as our Saviour has begun that "change" in you. According to Scriptures, as soon as you believe a change will occur.

.....................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), September 16, 2004.


That's true, Steph.

Like I mentioned in my e-mail to you, once you continue in a path of righteousness, that is doing what our God Yahweh truly wants and likes from us, you are truly secured.

Our God Yahweh in his most caring and warm love for us has sent people to guide us to him. From Abraham, Moses, Samuel, Nathan, Elijah, Elishah, Miquaiah, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Huldah, Ezekiel,....John The Baptist, Jesus of Nazareth, Paul the Apostle, Peter, James-Jesus brother,....and many others who have tried to get us in the right path.

Our God Yahweh continues to send revelations, prophecies,...to his people. This did not end with Jesus, who God Yahweh, too whom he gave the power to lead most of humankind towards salvation.

Unlike other Christians, I do believe that God Yahweh cares for all of humanity, not just Christians. He cares for Budhists, Muslims, Bahais,...Atheists.

In the dreams that I had in the past, people from Christians (most of them)to Muslims (an Afghan and a palestinian) to Agnostics to atheists (Fidel Castro),...to Jehovah's witnesses (Prince)have been there. From Presidents to the Pope. From Actors, students, newscasters,....Whites, Blacks, Hispanics, ...to Asians,...they have been there.

Yahweh cares about our salvation. The first step on salvation is to love others. That's tough. But we must start with our family. If we don't hug or kiss our family members there is no love to start with. If we don't care for our friends, there is no love.

May the love and grace of our God Yahweh be with you. May the guidance of his Son Jesus, the Christ, be a shining light.

The Christian Yahwist

The Man of Yahweh

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), September 16, 2004.


Elpidio,

I have to say I agree with you. I'll do it the Catholic way, but I can't find anything in my heart of hearts that seems wrong in your advice to Steph.

-- Jim (furst@flash.net), September 16, 2004.



Does Steph have the password?

...............

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), September 16, 2004.


I dislike being the pessimist in the group, but....

I'm sure Steph is a good poster. But, If if were a cyber terrorist, like the one who clobbered our threads, I could have posted under various names in order to make a quick comeback. Steph could be the "trojan horse" as we give her the password, she being the mad poster. I'm only thinking in terms of "what if" scenarios. Again, Steph is probably just a righteous poster, so no offense, just extra caution in our actions.

Sorry, if I'm wrong or too cautious, Steph and everyone.

.......................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), September 16, 2004.


He posted at EZ board, guys. I sent it to him.

http://p221.ezboard.com/fthechristianforumfrm

-- Assistant Moderator (egonval@yahoo.com), September 17, 2004.


"Steph" is a "he"? I thought "Steph" was a "she".

You know, like as in "Stephanie".

.........

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), September 17, 2004.


Jim.,

The one problem in Elpidio's response to Steph is that he denies Jesus Christ.

Notice that he listed Jesus as though just a mere prophet in a long line of prophets..

Yet we know that the Scriptures reveal that Jesus is not just a good teacher or a mere prophet. And we know that good advice to a seeker is to tell them that no one can come to the Father--but through His Son.

He told Steph that the first step to salvation is to love other--as though we are to earn our salvation. Yet the Bible tells us that the only way to salvation is to believe that Jesus is God in the flesh-- and that He died for our sins to reconcile us to Himself, because we cannot reconcile ourselves.

-- ("faith01@myway.com"), September 17, 2004.



Steph,

Obey the gospel, then you can be secure.

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), September 17, 2004.


Faith,

I guess I should say I agree in principle with everything Elpidio suggested. As a Catholic, "my way" puts Jesus at the center of the quest for salvation.

Still nothing is really contrary to what Christ taught within the basics of Elpidio's post.

As a Catholic Christian I would express it differently than Elpidio, but still I find the "spirit" of Christianity to be present in his advice to Steph. I think Christianity has been such a big part of Elpidio's life, that it would be almost impossible for it to be completely extinguished. I don't think that is Elpidio's intent. He considers himself to be Christian.

I guess I should let Elpidio speak for himself.

-- Jim (furst@flash.net), September 17, 2004.


Jim..,

I just find that the Scriptures reveal that salvation is not a quest or a good work--but a gift. It is something we can not and do not merit or deserve, based on anything we do.

We receive it as a gift when we recieve Christ.

Only after that--do we *work out* our salvation and find ourselves on a quest--a long life's journey of following our Savior.

-- ("faith01@myway.com"), September 17, 2004.


Consider this:

Elpidio made the reference to "love". God is love. So, perhaps there is an "obedience" and "work" to all of this.

....................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), September 17, 2004.


Yes--

But rod.,

We are saved because God first loved us...

Not because we love each other.

Even atheists can love others...

Telling someone that they can be saved if they love each other--may sound nice and warm--but it isn't what the Scriptures reveal about salvation, and it can only lead to the false assumption that if we do enough good things and love enough people--we can be saved.

But the Bible tells us that all our good works are as filthy rags-- when we do them apart from Him. In other words--good works and loving each other--can only please God when they're done in His Son's name.

And more than that--who can love their enemy apart from God? It's easy to love those who you care about--family and close friends--but what about your enemy? Can you honestly say that you would be capable of loving your worst enemy if you didn't have Christ in you first--to give you that ability?

-- ("faith01@myway.com"), September 17, 2004.



I believe that it is that "love" that turns an atheist around. It is that love that brings that atheist to God, hopefully and eventually. It is those "works" that a person does, but doesn't quite understand, that brings him into the "fold". For some, it is easier to follow in Christ. For others, who push the cart instead of ride the cart, it is just another way to understand. Sure, there are stubbornly strong headed people who need to push and pull until they realize what it means to push and pull. Again, different folks need different strokes.

.................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), September 17, 2004.


I think we are running into that old orientation/viewpoint difficulty again. Those of us who come frome a Catholic background seem to see salvation as something we continue to work out. Some of our Protestant bretheran see it as a gift/awakenening. I can see it as a gift that is also a work in progress.

I've said it before, but it still reminds me of the "chicken and the egg" argument.

-- Jim (furst@flash.net), September 18, 2004.


Yes, I do understand your points, Jim and Faith. I've also seen and experienced gradual and sudden conversion. I think that I have experienced a long conversion, which still continues with every breath I take. I have also witnessed those sudden conversions. The peculiar thing about being "born again" is the after effects. The "born again" Christian then begins a slow conversion, as they begin to fully understand their faith. I honestly believe that Catholics and non-Catholic Christians are at extreme ends of a pyramid. As they climb the pyramid, they eventually end up at the same place--the faith in Christ. Truthfully, Protestants (non-Catholics) do place "works" after the "rebirth". Catholics seem to place "works" where they first encounter them. Nonetheless, the "works" is God working thru the believer.

.....................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), September 18, 2004.


The story of the Good Samaritan may have something to do with this view of mine.

Look at the good work the Samaritan did for the poor guy. It was a work of love. Now, knowing that the Samaritan was not a good example of having faith in God, the poor guy accepted the charity given to him (what choice did he really have?). But, look at the work that was provided. Was there an example of God' love? Yes. We know what will become of the poor guy; he is being looked after and presumely in a state of rescue. But, what of the Samaritan? If the Samaritan's nature is to do good works, will the Samaritan find the "light"? Will it all fall into place for him? Will he experience a gradual or sudden conversion in faith? I would have the confidence to say, "yes, he will convert one day." Why? Well, God is love. A drop of food coloring in plain water inevitably turns the water colorful.

....................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), September 18, 2004.


Perhaps Elpidio may have also alluded to this view. "Works" may lead to the Source. Salvation is found in the faith in Christ.

......................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), September 18, 2004.


Faith-

"And more than that--who can love their enemy apart from God? It's easy to love those who you care about--family and close friends--but what about your enemy? Can you honestly say that you would be capable of loving your worst enemy if you didn't have Christ in you first--to give you that ability? "

Well, I'm not even sure we can love our neighbors. When was the last time you bought your neighbor a car or paid their expenses? "Love thy neighbor as thyself" can mean some very serious considerations. But, we can't really do it, can we? Did Mother Teresa live on those words?

I have enemies I find difficult to "love". I bite my tongue and thoughts; it is difficult. But, do I love my neighbor? I wonder.

.....................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), September 18, 2004.


rod.,

That was actually Jesus' whole point with His sermon on the mount. Although He appears to be demanding such an impossible thing--the truth is that He was trying to reveal how impossible it really is to live up to God's perfect standards and requirements for entering heaven.

What is revealed throughout the Scriptures is that only Jesus is perfect and capable of such things--and that He came to be *perfect* for us--in our place.

When we receive Him as our Savior--He becomes a substitutionary atonement for our sin--in our place, so that we don't have to pay the debt ourselves. The fact is we would have to pay with our lives because we could never measure up to the perfection required. The Bible goes as far as to reveal that only God is good., only God is perfect. S9o where does that leave us without a Savior? It leaves us lost!

Good works and good deeds only please God when we do them in His name. Salvation delivers us from the debt we owe--and it leaves us free from the power of sin and the ability to live better lives--not to be saved--but because we are saved.

Elpidio preaches an impossible salvation when he says that the first step to being saved is to love each other. We could never measure up in that respect and so would remain lost.

Jesus is the way--the truth and the lofe--and apart from Him., we cannot be saved.

-- ("faith01@myway.com"), September 18, 2004.


faith@my way , what I preach is faith working through love.

Does this sound familiar to you?

You find that a lot throughout the whole New testament, in Deuteronomy, and especially at I John and John's Gospel.

even in the letters of paul the apostle

(from Blue Bible) Gal 5:6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.

Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

Eph 3:17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love,

The Christian Yahwist

The Man of Yahweh



-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), September 18, 2004.

Elpidio--

But none of that is unto salvation...salvation comes by faith in what Jesus Christ did at the cross for us. It has nothing to do with what we do. Salavation comes because of what Jesus did. The verses you provide are speaking about those who are already saved. You provided Gal 5:6...but read the verses before that. Context is everything:

It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery. Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all. Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law. You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace. But by faith we eagerly await through the Spirit the righteousness for which we hope. (Gal 5:1-5)

You posted this:

Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

And I agree. But these things are present because we are saved--not in order to be saved.

Read further along..,

verse 24-25

Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires. Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit.

And you posted Eph 3:17.., which confirms that it is because of our faith that we are saved..,

verses 17-19:

...so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith. And I pray that you, being rooted and established in love, may have power, together with all the saints, to grasp how wide and long and high and deep is the love of Christ, and to know this love that surpasses knowledge--that you may be filled to the measure of all the fullness of God.

By the way--I don't know what the *Blue Bible* is. I'm assuming it isn't the color of the book--right? I mean--I have blue Bibles in that case too.

Is it some sort of obscure translation? Like the New World Translation re-written by the Jehovah Witnesses?

-- ("faith01@myway.com"), September 18, 2004.


Faith, I don't know, but perhaps he means the Blue Letter Bible, a Bible study tool with Greek, Hebrew, commentaries, and dictionaries. They use the KJV translation.

-- Emily ("jesusfollower7@yahoo.com), September 18, 2004.

I don't know why he calls it the Blue Bible though--if all it is, is the King James Version.

I looked his verses up on the internet in a KJV--and they did match. So I suppose it could be.

I don't use that version myself.

-- ("faith01@myway.com"), September 18, 2004.


That's what it is called, "Blue Letter Bible".

.................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), September 18, 2004.


Faith,

If your definition of faith in God includes loving Him, then I think you and Elpidio are saying the same thing.

If your definition of faith simply means that you know God exists without necessarily loving Him (demons know God exists but they don't love Him) then I would say that having faith is not enough for eternal life.

-- Andy S ("ask3332004@yahoo.com"), September 19, 2004.


No--the clear distinction is that our faith in God--allows us to love in the capacity that is pleasing to God.

After-all., even an atheist is able to love--but that doesn't mean they are saved.

In order to be saved--we must have faith in what Christ did for us--

Salvation is not ours because we can love others. We are not saved by anything that we do.

-- ("faith01@myway.com"), September 19, 2004.


I agree that faith is necessary Faith. I don't see that Elpidio is saying that it isn't necessary. Maybe I should let Elpidio speak for himself.

On a side note, do you think that love could help bring people to faith? For example, couldn't an atheist who feeds the poor or sees the Christ-like example of Christians be brought to believing in Christ through that love?

-- Andy S ("ask3332004@yahoo.com"), September 20, 2004.


Of course! Andy--

We are commanded by Jesus to do just that.

When people see the love of Christ in us--they are drawn to Jesus and will hopefully recognize the truth and receive Him as their Savior.

But as for each of us--we are saved by faith in what Christ did at Calvary. We can not save ourselves by loving others.

Like I said--even atheists can love others....but if they don't recognize Jesus as being their Savior--they are lost no matter how many people they love.

To tell people that the way to get saved is to love others--is to mislead them. Elpidio wants to take Jesus out of the picture. According to Elpidio--Jesus is not *God with us*..he rejects that Jesus is God our Savior. He sees Jesus as just another prophet in a long line of prophets. That is dangerous theology and we need to keep it straight here. It compares to what the Jehovah Witnesses believe. Would you defend the ideas of a Jehovah Witness on this board?

-- ("faith01@myway.com"), September 20, 2004.


Faith,

I would never defend the idea that Jesus is not God.

But I would defend any idea that is true, no matter who says it. I think that it is true that people can be led to Jesus through loving others. That is what I think Elpidio was saying and that is what I think you just said.

From Elpidio's post I didn't see anything about earning salvation without faith. But I really should allow him to clarify himself. I may just be reading into what he says because of my own beliefs.

-- Andy S ("ask3332004@yahoo.com"), September 20, 2004.


I guess where I would disagree with Elpidio would be in the specifics of the faith we need to be saved. But that is only because I know what his beliefs about Christ are, not because of anything he said in his last post (unless I missed something).

-- Andy S ("ask3332004@yahoo.com"), September 20, 2004.

Andy?

Do you really think that an atheist who loves someone is going to lead that person to Christ?

If it is our example that leads someone to the truth about Jesus according to the Scriptures {and not a false Jesus as represented by Elpidio].., then I believe that the person doing the loving must be doing it in Jesus' name. The true Jesus of the gospels.

As Christians--our fruit, or good deeds--draws others to see our lives and ask the question, "What is it that they have that makes them like this?" In that questioning, they come to discover the truth about Jesus as believed by the person who reflected that truth. They make the decision that they want what we have and they pursue and seek that truth. If their path is straight--they too will find God through faith in Jesus Christ.

If an atheist loves someone enough that a person looks at them and asks, "What is it that they have?" Will they discover Jesus through this atheist? It's an odd analogy because I truly believe that an atheist is not able to love like God commands we love. If they do-- then there is a good chance they know God more than they admit. I believe that all love is because of God.

But the Scriptures are clear about the fact that if you are not doing good deeds in the name of Jesus--then your deeds are as filthy rags and are unable to please God. I think that this is because when these deeds are done apart from God--they are done for self-glorification.

This is where Elpidio places Jesus on the totem pole of his faith:

Like I mentioned in my e-mail to you, once you continue in a path of righteousness, that is doing what our God Yahweh truly wants and likes from us, you are truly secured. [Here we can see the self- effort theology]

Our God Yahweh in his most caring and warm love for us has sent people to guide us to him. From Abraham, Moses, Samuel, Nathan, Elijah, Elishah, Miquaiah, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Huldah, Ezekiel,....John The Baptist, Jesus of Nazareth, Paul the Apostle, Peter, James-Jesus brother,....and many others who have tried to get us in the right path.

I am sorry to be tough on Elpidio--but he believes a false gospel and claims to be a prophet of sorts himself.

-- ("faith01@myway.com"), September 20, 2004.


"Do you really think that an atheist who loves someone is going to lead that person to Christ? "-Faith.

Yes. What did the Good Samaritan do and why use him as an example?

.............

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), September 20, 2004.


The good Samaritan revealed that it wasn't only the jews who could know God...and that in fact, the Jews were so caught up in their rules and tradition--that they were missing God--evidenced in their mistreatment of their fellow man.

The good Samaritan exampled the kind of love God commands--about loving your neighbor--and loving even your enemy.

The verse doesn't go into whether or not the Samaritan was a Godly man--however--judging by his mercy and compassion--he likely was.

The point of the parable was to show how the religious Jews had lost sight of the truth.

-- ("faith01@myway.com"), September 20, 2004.


That message can be extended to today and today's unbelievers. God does work in mysterious ways.

..........

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), September 20, 2004.


What is the Source of the good Samaritan's "love"?

............

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), September 20, 2004.


How does a Calvinist rationlize God's intervention in bringing a person into "faith" in Him? What must God do for the heathan or atheist to turn and believe in Him? I think love has something to do with God's "work".

(I'm not a Calvinist, but I will play one on t.v.)

...............

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), September 20, 2004.


Yes rod--

But it is God's love for us--that convicts our souls--in that Christ died for us. No greater love exists than the Love God has for us.

There is no reason to assume that the good Samaritan is not a believer.

But beyond all this--I am not arguing that love doesn't matter. It surely does matter. Love comes from God. But if you do not acknowledge God or His Son--who is God in the flesh--then your works are filthy--and you cannot please God no matter how much you love your friends and family.

The bottom line is that faith in Christ saves. And this is exampled in love--but that love is the result of God's love for us. We are not saved because we love--but because we believe in Jesus Christ--who first loved us.

I know you all want to think that as long as you are good and love your friends--that you are saved. But that is not what the Bible teaches. No one can come to the Father--apart from Christ.

-- ("faith01@myway.com"), September 20, 2004.


Faith,

That's not what I think or want to think. Christ told us we had to love our enemies not just our friends. You already said what I was trying to say in a much better way than I did:

If an atheist loves someone enough that a person looks at them and asks, "What is it that they have?" Will they discover Jesus through this atheist? It's an odd analogy because I truly believe that an atheist is not able to love like God commands we love. If they do-- then there is a good chance they know God more than they admit. I believe that all love is because of God.

That's what I was trying to say. God is love and ALL real love comes from Him. For example, children can come to a strong faith in our loving Father because of the love they have experienced in their families. Or they can come to hate God based on the lack of love they've experienced from someone who claims to be Christian, especially if that person is a parent.

If it is possible to love without faith, is it also possible to have faith without love? And how does 1 Cor 13 fit in with all this?

1Co 13:2 And if I should have prophecy and should know all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I should have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.

1Co 13:13 And now there remain faith, hope, and charity, these three: but the greatest of these is charity.

Just curious how you see it.

-- Andy S ("ask3332004@yahoo.com"), September 20, 2004.


Andy asks:

"If it is possible to love without faith, is it also possible to have faith without love?"

I don't think it is possible to have faith without love and I think that it is something that is missing in a lot of the protestant evangelical mindset. After all, as it says in James, Faith without works is dead. And these works need to be motivated by love. We can say the sinners prayer all we want, but if we don't repent and begin to love (particularly the unlovable and our enemies) we are just kidding ourselves if we think we are saved.

-- James (stinkcat_14@hotmail.com), September 20, 2004.


I don't think anyone here is saying that love Saves. Love can be a catalyst for bring one to God. It is up to the person to believe after that.

..........

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), September 20, 2004.


Thanks for the reply James.

Elpidio, you mentioned faith working through love, etc. What faith do you believe is necessary for eternal life?

-- Andy S ("ask3332004@yahoo.com"), September 20, 2004.


Love can be a catalyst for bring one to God. It is up to the person to believe after that.

Yes! That's what I was trying to get at too. Thanks. Next time I'll lurk awhile before posting. I have a hard time communicating sometimes.

-- Andy S ("ask3332004@yahoo.com"), September 20, 2004.


Uh..."bringing".

The atheist who shows genuine love must have it because of God. The atheist may not realize it or accept it to be from God, but it is there just waiting to become significant in the reality of everything. How else can an atheist become a believer? It is that love that opens the heart. I don't mean to sound like a Calvinist, but do you see how God works?

.................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), September 20, 2004.


Hi Andy,

I think it is a combination of all our posts that allows us to see things clearer. James pointed out that part about real love. It is in Scriptures that God is love; therefore, my view is that an atheist who exhibits love must have God's love. Atheists do some amazing things that some Christians would not do all in the name of love-- love country, duty, family, ideals, humanity, etc. Of course, the only thing missing in our eyes is their faith in God. I wonder what happens in those few micro-seconds prior to an atheist's death. Does he convert? I wonder.

...............

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), September 20, 2004.


I see what you're saying rod. Very perceptive.

I too have wondered how many deathbed conversions there are. I also wonder how many go the other way on their deathbed and don't persevere to the very end.

-- Andy S ("ask3332004@yahoo.com"), September 20, 2004.


For faith and andy:

There is only one gospel with many interpretations, faith.

There is the Ebionite position taken by James and Peter. That position still follows the law. They accept Jesus as the messiah (anointed). They don't believe he is God Yahweh.This position is found in Matthew, James, and Jude. Some hints are given in Acts and Galatians.

There is the Grace working through love of Paul and his followers: Timothy(same as Titus?), Luke, Silvanus (Silas?),...where circumcision is not required from believers, neither other Jewish Law requirements.This position is found in Luke, Acts, Paul's letters except Hebrews.

There is the Christian/Messianic love espoused by John (Mark) a levite who I consider the true author of I John (and by implication John and Revelation source) not John the brother of James who was a fisherman. (This John Mark is the same with Mary at the cross, not the brother of James, because Mary, Jesus mother lived in John Mark's house in Jerusalem. He is also the one who lost his clothes while following Jesus after being arrested.) Together with his cousin Barnabas they preached a gospel of God's love towards humanity. Unlike Paul's grace, John still believed in circumcision. His position is found in John's gospel, Hebrews (which I believe to be Barnabas' not Paul's, since Barnabas was a levite and Paul wasn't. The letter portrays Jesus in the priestly role even though he wasn't.), I john, 2 John, 3 John, and Revelation. 2 Peter seems to go in that direction.

Then there is my position. Those who are Jews could still be circumcised and follow Jewish customs besides believing in Jesus as the Messiah.In this regard I follow James and Peter. This gospel is found in Matthew and James.

Those who are gentiles are not required to follow Jewish law. In that regard I follow Paul. This Gospel is found in Luke, Acts, Paul's letters except Hebrews, which is not his.

I cannot force Jews to become Christians, only Messianists.

The reason for that is because God Yahweh will judge us each one of us because of our actions towards others and him. faith, this is the Ebionite position which even Catholics follow today except for that they don't follow Jewish customs. I myself also subscribe to this position.

Jesus says that in Matthew 25:31-46, that those who did something for others when they had the chance will be rewarded by Jesus when he comes to reign in the Kingdom with his father, Yahweh.

Imagine Matthew 5:20" For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that od scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter the kingdom of Heaven."(Revised Standard)

The rest of this Jesus' argument for loving even one's enemies is at Mathew 5:43-48.

This is Jesus salvation plan, faith. There is no mention of grace whatsoever by Jesus.

Where I believe Grace, using Paul's arguments comes into salvation, comes into the picture is when we sin. If we didn't sin, then salvation is guarranteed. Since we do, then, God will see how our faith affected our love for him.

I believe, that there will be Atheists, Budhists, Bahais, ....in God's kingdom one day, because, even though they never knew God Yahweh, they did what God Yahweh demands from us. Jesus uses this argument in Mathew 11:20-24 where Jesus says that even the wicked Tyrians who sacrificed their children and the homosexual people from Sodom and Gomarra will be treated with less rigor thatn those who lisened to his words and did not do works of righteousness (faith working through love).

faith alone will not save us. Love alone won't save us.

It is grace working through faith working through love.

That is in my opinion the heart of the gospel of Jesus the Christ.

This is the Gospel of Yahweh and his Son Jesus Christ that I preach.

The Christian Yahwist

The Man of Yahweh

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), September 20, 2004.


How can I logically debate you Elpidio--when you simply declare things out of thin air.

You cannot choose the parts of the Bible that say what you like and disregard the things you disagree with. You use some things from the Bible to support yourself--but then if I do the same--all you have to say is that you don't believe that that was really written by John? Or by whomever? Or you can just declare that there is a mistake? A mistranslation--when things don't go your way?

You claim that Peter did not think that Jesus was God? If I post verses that show that Peter certainly knew Jesus was God., will you declare a mistranslation? Should I even bother?

You simply do not understand the sermon on mount either Elpidio--if you believe that Jesus was actually teaching that we could earn our way to heaven--negating grace. The whole point of the Sermon on the Mount is that we have no other choice but to fall into the safety net of grace. Because we surely cannot live up to God's holy reqirements of perfection. Jesus says it himself--"With man it is impossible to get into heaven based on anything he could do!" Jesus tells us that it is hopeless if we are going to rely on ourselves. But--he eases our worries by telling us that God has made a way. That all things are possible with God. How did God provide??

He sent His Son. Believe on the One He has sent--and you will be saved.

-- ("faith01@myway.com"), September 20, 2004.


My point, faith.

Protestants say they believe the Bible is innerant, yet, they concentrate on Luke,John,Acts,Romans, Galatians, Corinthians,Ephesians,Phillipians,Hebrews, I John,Peter, and Revelation. That is their Gospel.

Roman Catholics use Matthew, Luke, John, Acts, Romans, Corinthians, I Timothy, Titus, Peter, and James. That is their Gospel.

My Gospel starts with Mark, Matthew, Luke, John,(Plus Thomas) Acts,....it includes James and Peter, Paul and John,....The Jesus from those books truly is one that is more believable. I can sympathyze with him. He is one I can model myself after. Why, because he is human like me, faith!!!

Yes, we don't have the same Godspel (Gospel) perspective, faith.

Which one will people choose????

My Jesus Gospel doesn't teach hate. So racists, bigots, those who hold people as slaves,....as long as they preach the Gospel of hate are not with me.

The Christian Yahwist

The Man of Yahweh

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), September 20, 2004.


Faith?

My discussion with you is about how a stubborn man who is also arrogant can change his whole view into believing in God and His Son as our Saviour. We are talking about those steps taken in the correct path that leads to Salvation. We are not saying that the path in iself is Salvation, but some steps must be taken most inevitably. Hate doesn't bring us squat....ok, maybe it does, but it doesn't bring us anywhere near God's will. Love is a starting point because God is love. The most miserable lost soul must have some kind of love in order to begin in the "path". I just want to make things clear as to what we are really engaing in with this discussion.

.........

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), September 20, 2004.


Hay! Elpidio, we posted at the same time. Eeerie!

...................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), September 20, 2004.


rod--

Actually--we were talking about the false gospel that Elpidio preaches that says we can earn our salvation by loving each other., apart from Christ. He says that Jesus is not God--and that we do not need to receive Christ in order to be saved.

I don't deny that love is all a part of our salvation--but it is a result of salvation and not the cause of it.

Elpidio--

There are only four gospel accounts in the New Testament. Matthew, Mark, John and Luke.

-- ("faith01@myway.com"), September 20, 2004.


"engaging"...........errors, why??

.................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), September 20, 2004.


I think is the third time it happens, Rod.

It could be a psychic connection somewhere!!!

But your point that even those who are not Christian like the samaritan do God's word as told by Jesus makes sense. I do believe many of these people will inherit God's Kingdom because they did as God wants people to do even though sometimes they don't know him.

That is what I truly will call 100% grace, Rod.

Ours is not 100% since we have to accept Jesus as the christ!!!

The Christian Yahwist

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), September 20, 2004.


Yes, I know where Elpidio stands. Yes, I know that the New Testament has the Synoptic texts. I also know that Elpidio does not subscribe to only those texts. Yes, I know where you stand. But, I don't exactly know how to bring both of your views under one doctrine. That's like trying to put a camel through the eye of a needle. Hmmm....do you know how to convert Elpidio? Elpidio will have just as difficult a time comverting you. "Stalemate"? Hmm.....If there is a way of convincing Elpidio that Jesus is God....well, you know the rest. In the meantime, perhaps a "long conversion" is in order?

...............

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), September 20, 2004.


Elpidio--

Where does the Bible reveal that the good Samaritan was not a believer? Don't forget that Jesus was revealed in the Old Testament and even Abraham who never saw Jesus--was still saved by His faith in Him..because He believed God. Jesus and God are one and the same : )

-- ("faith-1@myway.com"), September 20, 2004.


None of what you say rod--has anything to do with the point here.

The point is that Elpidio is preaching a false gospel and I am trying to correct it. That is why I challenged his love saves theology and brought to rememberance what the Bible actually says about it.

That's all.

-- ("faith01@myway.com"), September 20, 2004.


"I don't deny that love is all a part of our salvation--but it is a result of salvation and not the cause of it. "

Well, I tend to disagree with your view on love and Salvation. My view is that love has everything to do with God. His creation can exhibit love for each other, even if that person doesn't acknowledge or accept that God exists. Salvation is a result of having faith in Jesus as our Saviour; the love part is there perhaps at a greater quantity or quality, but it has been there prior to one's Salvation. If an atheist shows love, who gave him the capacity to show that love? Satan? I don't think so. God, of course.

But, let's look at that false love. It could be one of Satan's little temptations to use a fax d'amor behavior in order to achieve an evil thing. Obviously, that isn't love at all. That would fall under deception, deceit, or lie. I suppose that if an atheist shows love for only a means to an end, we better take a strong look at our "love" to see if it is genuine. Ooee, scary stuff.

................................... .....................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), September 20, 2004.


Faith wrote:

"He told Steph that the first step to salvation is to love other--as though we are to earn our salvation. Yet the Bible tells us that the only way to salvation is to believe that Jesus is God in the flesh-- and that He died for our sins to reconcile us to Himself, because we cannot reconcile ourselves. "

How do you convince a cold dead spirit--atheist, gnostic, agnostic, etc,--that Jesus is God, that God exists, that Salvation is real? First, you tell them that they are capable of loving their family members, friends, and one day their enemies. Why? Because, hopefully, to an unbeliever in God, love is very real to them. That is the starting point. (I'm not saying Steph falls into the "dead spirit" group.)

.................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), September 20, 2004.


The point is that Elpidio is preaching a false gospel and I am trying to correct it.

I don't preach a false Gospel , faith!!!! I may preach something different to what you are accustomed to. After all, faith, your Gospel originated in the 16 century!!!! There were no Protestants before this time.

The Catholic Gospel originated in the 3rd Century around Rome, Carthage, Alexandria, and Constantinople.

Antioch, our mother Church (for Gentiles) was more Unitarian (Paul of Samosata-3rd century), Arian or Semi-Arian (Eusebius of Caesarea-4th century). These days it looks more like the Catholic Church of the 10th century!!!

Kevin's and Luke's Church are trying to get to the original Church. So am I.

I wonder what our friend Steph Y. thinks, faith???????

Does this person think that we are saved by believing Jesus is God or by believing we must love each other to be saved?????

The Christian Yahwist

PS: As Rod observed, my canon for the Bible is different. I will list it in another thread. I include the Gospel Thomas in the New testament.No, not because of Stigmata, the Movie. But because 75% of its sayings are in Matthew, Mark, and Luke. 2 are in John.

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), September 20, 2004.


If love cannot be measured--weight,volume, light intensity, atomic decay, or whatever--then how can an atheist prove its existence? Well, if he accepts love, yet cannot prove it, he must then make allowances for the possibility that God does truly exist. That's a start in the right direction; I'd say. We can then determine that love exists because God exists.

................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), September 20, 2004.


If an atheist can say that he can prove that love exists because of his actions and thoughts, then what is to keep him from imagining a Supreme Being who can do the same--exhibit love through His actions and thoughts. Love...that invisible, intangible thing out there.

Then, we could give examples of love--care for others, sacrifice, works, dying for the salvation of others. Hmm. Could God also do those acts of love? Could God send His only begotten Son to die for our Salvation? Isn't all of this based of love shed for us mortal humans? Of course, it is.

...............

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), September 20, 2004.


God Yahweh is love.

Even Jesus admitted that in his answer to the man who asked him about the greatest commandment.

So any Gospel which preaches hatred is not from God. Any Gospel that God Yahweh hates his people , it is not from God. Even Jesus will disown that person.

Any Gospel which preaches God Yahweh damns people to a Hell of fire.... is not from God. Even Jesus will disown such person.

The Christian Yahwist preaches a Gospel of love. Because God yahweh is love.

Our Lord Jesus Christ, blessed be his name, also preached a message of love. So did his disciples.

The Christian Yahwist

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), September 20, 2004.


I once had an argument with David about the word "hate" as it was used in the O.T. I still stand firmly in my understanding that "hate" was used to mean to avoid, or to reject. It didn't mean to assault with anger or harm. Example: "...God hates sin...". It could be paraphrased as , "...God rejects sin...". But, of course, there are instances when God destroyed evil in the world. Oh well...

......

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), September 20, 2004.


Oops! "fax" probably means face in latin or something. I meant "faux" as in false.

..........................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), September 20, 2004.


rod...

You asked:

How do you convince a cold dead spirit--atheist, gnostic, agnostic, etc,--that Jesus is God, that God exists, that Salvation is real? First, you tell them that they are capable of loving their family members, friends, and one day their enemies. Why? Because, hopefully, to an unbeliever in God, love is very real to them. That is the starting point. (I'm not saying Steph falls into the "dead spirit" group.)

God answers this question in the Scriptures. This is what the gospel message is all about. It is hearing the Word that convicts the soul-- not you., or me or Elpidio for thar matter.

We are to preach Jesus Christ and open them to the Scriptures. We plant the seeds. God does the rest. You don't have to do acrobatics to convince anyone of anything.

What is the gospel message?

Jesus Christ was crucified for our sin--and on the third day he rose-- in fullfillment of the Scriptures. He will come again to take us to be with Him in heaven. Believe that He is who He says He is--and that He will do what He has said He will--and you can be saved. Let the Word convict their souls.........

-- ("faith01@myway.com"), September 21, 2004.


Faith, you are going under the assumption that an atheist will accept Scriptures. The atheists I've met have read Scriptures and attended "church"; they ain't budging. That's why they are atheists-- they will not accept or believe. There are even cold deadly atheists who are ready and willing to bring down believers into the threshold of Hell. Scriptures are not gonna work until their hearts open up. And how is that done? I think I've already alluded to that answer.

....................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), September 21, 2004.


That's why I think that "Sola Scriptura" becomes a limited proposition for some. The atheist has already rejected Scriptures, so what is left? I think it would be difficult to reject God. Hopefully, the atheist may equate life experiences with the acts of God. It has to be a one to one relationship, not a text only kind of deal. Some can make connections with life, living, and Scriptures, while others cannot. So, actually, it is the presence of God that will turn the atheist around. It isn't the text because, for the atheist, it is merely a collection of myths that he must blindly believe. Love is not in need of acute eye-vision. Love is real and irrefutable. Again, that's where it starts.

....................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), September 21, 2004.


rod--

Do you really have that little faith in the power of God's Word to convict even the hardest of hearts? Don't forget that people can hear the Word without having to actually open the Scriptures--but we must *say* what comes from those Scriptures acurately if we expect the power of God to work.

You seem to be trying to out think God by determining that an atheist just never will believe. But it is God's job to convict the soul--and He says he will do it with the power of His Word. Jesus is His Word-- by-the-Way. The Word made flesh--believe and be saved.

The question becomes--"Do you know what you ought to believe?"

-- ("faith01@myway.com"), September 21, 2004.


I read that some souls with fry in Hell.

........

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), September 21, 2004.


Hebrews 4:12

For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-­ edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.

-- ("faith01@myway.com"), September 21, 2004.


If the interpretation is what you see to imply, then explain why Hell exists, Satan exists, and souls will fry eternally in Hell.

.......

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), September 21, 2004.


John 17:12-19

While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by that name you gave me. None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled. "I am coming to you now, but I say these things while I am still in the world, so that they may have the full measure of my joy within them. I have given them your word and the world has hated them, for they are not of the world any more than I am of the world. My prayer is not that you take them out of the world but that you protect them from the evil one. They are not of the world, even as I am not of it. Sanctify them by the truth; your word is truth. As you sent me into the world, I have sent them into the world. For them I sanctify myself, that they too may be truly sanctified.

-- ("faith01@myway.com"), September 21, 2004.


Elpidio,

Maybe you answered this already, but I missed it. I admit to being kind of slow. I need most things spelled out for me.

1. Do you believe we can "work" our way to eternal life by loving others?

2. If love also requires faith, then can you boil the faith you say we must have down to a few sentences?

Thanks.

-- Andy S ("ask3332004@yahoo.com"), September 21, 2004.


Eph 6:10-17

Finally, be strong in the Lord and in his mighty power. Put on the full armor of God so that you can take your stand against the devil's schemes. For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms. Therefore put on the full armor of God, so that when the day of evil comes, you may be able to stand your ground, and after you have done everything, to stand. Stand firm then, with the belt of truth buckled around your waist, with the breastplate of righteousness in place, and with your feet fitted with the readiness that comes from the gospel of peace. In addition to all this, take up the shield of faith, with which you can extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil one. Take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit,-- which is the word of God.

-- ("faith01@myway.com"), September 21, 2004.


2 Peter 1

Simon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who through the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ have received a faith as precious as ours: Grace and peace be yours in abundance through the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord.

verse 12-21.......So I will always remind you of these things, even though you know them and are firmly established in the truth you now have. I think it is right to refresh your memory as long as I live in the tent of this body, because I know that I will soon put it aside, as our Lord Jesus Christ has made clear to me. And I will make every effort to see that after my departure you will always be able to remember these things. [recorded Scripture]

We did not follow cleverly invented stories when we told you about the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty. For he received honor and glory from God the Father when the voice came to him from the Majestic Glory, saying, "This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased." We ourselves heard this voice that came from heaven when we were with him on the sacred mountain. And we have the word of the prophets made more certain, and you will do well to pay attention to it, as to a light shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts.

Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet's own interpretation. For prophecy never had its origin in the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.

-- ("faith01@myway.com"), September 21, 2004.


ACTS 6:1-7

In those days when the number of disciples was increasing, the Grecian Jews among them complained against the Hebraic Jews because their widows were being overlooked in the daily distribution of food.

So the Twelve gathered all the disciples together and said, "It would not be right for us to neglect the ministry of the word of God in order to wait on tables.

Brothers, choose seven men from among you who are known to be full of the Spirit and wisdom. We will turn this responsibility over to them and will give our attention to prayer and the ministry of the word."

This proposal pleased the whole group. They chose Stephen, a man full of faith and of the Holy Spirit; also Philip, Procorus, Nicanor, Timon, Parmenas, and Nicolas from Antioch, a convert to Judaism.

They presented these men to the apostles, who prayed and laid their hands on them.

So the word of God spread. The number of disciples in Jerusalem increased rapidly, and a large number of priests became obedient to the faith.

******************************

Notice what comes first and what is of the utmost importance? It is the faithful who exibit love that is pleasing to God--and in turn--it leads people to the truth as revealed in the Word of God.

These people are being saved daily because of God's love for them-- not because they [UNBELIEVERS] loved....but because they came to know the Word.

-- ("faith01@myway.com"), September 21, 2004.


What I see is a contradiction. I'll have to study this at a later time.

..............

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), September 21, 2004.


"These people are being saved daily because of God's love for them-- not because they [UNBELIEVERS] loved....but because they came to know the Word. "-Faith.

Again, we are not talking about love saving anyone.-rod.

......................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), September 21, 2004.


Yes we were rod--

That is Elpidio's initial premise.

It is a dangerous thing to humor such a concept.

-- ("faith01@myway.com"), September 21, 2004.


I didn't humor Elpidio's concept of Salvation, but I do agree with the starting point that can be utilized. Not all accept Christ, but they must start where they are comfortable, then gradually assimilate them in by their own free will.

............

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), September 21, 2004.


You are missing the difference between what Elpidio is saying about love and what the Scriptures are revealing.

Love saves the lost--it isn't that if the lost love--they can be saved.

It is the saved believer who administers God's love unto the salvation of the lost.

Elpidio claims that the lost can save themselves simply by loving others. There is a huge difference between the two ideas....

-- ("faith01@myway.com"), September 21, 2004.


"Elpidio claims that the lost can save themselves simply by loving others. "-Faith.

I would prefer to hear Elpidio concede of such a doctrine.

......................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), September 21, 2004.


All you have to do., rod--

Is scroll to the top of this thread and read his words:

"Yahweh cares about our salvation. The first step on salvation is to love others. That's tough. But we must start with our family. If we don't hug or kiss our family members there is no love to start with. If we don't care for our friends, there is no love."

Self-effort theology--LOUD and CLEAR.....

Elpidio added...

"I believe, that there will be Atheists, Budhists, Bahais, ....in God's kingdom one day, because, even though they never knew God Yahweh, they did what God Yahweh demands from us."

So rod...there is no need for faith in Jesus Christ in order to be saved. Elpidio says so.

-- ("faith01@myway.com"), September 21, 2004.


He does acknowledge a faith in God. But, you must also consider the Jews and Elpidio's Ebionism/Yahwism.

......

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), September 21, 2004.


He does also acknowledge Jesus Christ, but not within orthodoxy.

..........

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), September 21, 2004.


Since April 30 Ad we have Jesus as our guide, faith, for salvation.

From 28 AD ( Sept) and back, we don't have a Jesus Christ.

Yet, Yahweh said, according to Jesus on the question about the resurrection that he , Yahweh,was the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac....which means, that even though they did not believe in Jesus Christ, they were saved!!!!! (Ex 4:14,Mark 12:26-27).

So just like the Pharisees of Jesus days, people (Jews, Messianists,Protestants, Catholics) still don't understand God Yahweh's plan of salvation.

Yahweh has been working since the day he created us. He has never abandoned us. That is why he always sends people to bring people back into his salvation plan.

The Christian Yahwist

The Man of Yahweh

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), September 21, 2004.


rod?

I must honor the Jews rejection of Jesus Christ as their Messiah?

I don't think God would agree.

As a matter-of-fact., He has hardened their hearts and blinded their eyes because of their rebellious rejection.

Don't forget what the Old Testament is all about. It is all about Jesus.

Abraham was saved because he looked to the cross in the same way that we do--with faith in what God has accomplished there.

Who has believed our message and to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed? He grew up before him like a tender shoot, and like a root out of dry ground. He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him, nothing in his appearance that we should desire him. He was despised and rejected by men, a man of sorrows, and familiar with suffering. Like one from whom men hide their faces he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

Surely he took up our infirmities and carried our sorrows, yet we considered him stricken by God, smitten by him, and afflicted.

But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon him, and by his wounds we are healed.

We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of us has turned to his own way; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all.

He was oppressed and afflicted, yet he did not open his mouth; he was led like a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is silent, so he did not open his mouth. By oppression and judgment he was taken away. And who can speak of his descendants? For he was cut off from the land of the living; for the transgression of my people he was stricken. He was assigned a grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death, though he had done no violence, nor was any deceit in his mouth.

Yet it was the LORD's will to crush him and cause him to suffer, and though the LORD makes his life a guilt offering, he will see his offspring and prolong his days, and the will of the LORD will prosper in his hand.

After the suffering of his soul, he will see the light of life and be satisfied; by his knowledge my righteous servant will justify many, and he will bear their iniquities.

Therefore I will give him a portion among the great, and he will divide the spoils with the strong, because he poured out his life unto death, and was numbered with the transgressors. For he bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

Isaiah 53

-- ("faith01@myway.com"), September 21, 2004.


All I said was to "consider", not to honor them. You will understand where Elpidio stands.

.............

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), September 21, 2004.


rod--

You are too funny.

I understand exactly where Elpidio stands.

His story is no different than that of the Jews or any other unbeliever--

What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; but Israel, who pursued a law of righteousness, has not attained it.

Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the "stumbling stone." As it is written:

"See, I lay in Zion a stone that causes men to stumble and a rock that makes them fall, and the one who trusts in him will never be put to shame [from Isaiah 28:13]." Romans 9:30-33

************************

Jesus/God is the rock--and Elpidio stumbles over this very rock -- just like the Jews did and still do.

-- ("faith01@myway.com"), September 21, 2004.


Well, then. You now understand. I'm not Jewish and neither are you, but that doesn't mean we don't understand their stand.

Ok, now Elpidio may rake me over some coals. That's just little friendly comment, Elpidio.

.........

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), September 21, 2004.


rod..,

Do you think tha we should allow false teaching to go unchallenged-- just to be nice or understanding? Understanding the problem has never been an issue for me. I understand--and always have understood--what is wrong with Elpidio.

He listens to deceiving spirits.

-- ("faith01@myway.com"), September 21, 2004.


I'm sure there are many who feel that you and I are "wrong". My angle is to understand where I am correct and where I am wrong. I'm not so sure that anyone can be corrected once they "know" that they are correct. In the meantime, it is ok to be nice to each other, even if we are "wrong".

...........

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), September 21, 2004.


I am always nice--but I am not going to allow false teachings to go unaddressed here.

I will not compromise God's Word--His truth., just for the sake of appearing nice.

Being really nice is caring enough to tell the truth--even if it offends.

I cannot pretend to be agreeable with Elpidio in any aspect of my Christain faith. He denies my Lord God and Savior and has reduced him to merely a good man.

-- ("faith01@myway.com"), September 21, 2004.


Elpidio and I have had our discussion via email. I saw no need to get arrogant with him. We are still friends considering our differences in doctrines/theologies. I choose to remain agreeable when the similarities cross paths.

.......................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), September 21, 2004.


This forum is called, "Ask Jesus". For all I know, Jehovah Witness folks can post here along with Arians, Unitarians, One-ness, Jesuits, and anyone with a reference to Jesus. But, consider the Catholic. He has the Holy Trinity in his belief system. Yet, the Catholic is also condemned by the popular vote in this forum (that is gradually changing, though). Yahwism and Catholicism have their critics while the others (mentioned earlier) have theirs. It makes for a messy place.

...........

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), September 21, 2004.


Good thing we don't have to kill each if we disagree. 99% of Christians forums in the internet discriminate against people like me. Yet, somehow i have managed to keep a dialogue in 7 of them: One Calvinistic, One Methodist, one Catholic, one open forum, two also that stress grace(protestant), and one Messianianic.

Luther used to kill people like me. He and I share the same birthday.

The Christian Yahwist

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), September 21, 2004.


Remember when I first mentioned this forum, Elpidio? Now look! You're the moderator. Amazing!

..................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), September 21, 2004.


My dream from July 23, 2004 came true, Rod.

I asked ,Yahweh(Yavé) in Spanish ,"¿ Y estos quienes son Yavé? (Who are these , Yahweh?) . Yavé answered in English, "These are Protestants". So I asked in English, "What do you want me to do?". "You will preach to them", he answered.

Are there any Catholics?, I asked. He said, 3 o 4 (In Spanish).

This was the second part of my dream that morning. The first was the rock under the mountain which try to move it and couldn't.

The third involved Jesus and Catholics.It also involved not raining hard for 3 years. Part 4 involved moving the mountain any place the little rock wanted to go.

Eugene Chavez and John Gecick were very hard on me at the Catholic, as was David O. here.

You and Jim had been with me all along , even when you disagree with me theologically on most issues.

Except on the most important issue: God Yahweh's love for humanity.

It's been 4 years already.

Your friend,

The Christian Yahwist

-- Elpidio Gonzalez. (egonval@yahoo.com), September 21, 2004.


Elpidio?

Just curious..,

How do you know that it is God who speaks to you in these visions?

You don't seem to have a measure stick of any sort--save your own imaginings...

How do you know??

It could be the devil and you would not know the difference.

Deception is sugar coated., after all.

It may seem all nice.., and this spirit may even be able to tell you a few things that ring true for you.

But how do you measure truth, Elpidio.

God reveals that it is through His Word that we do this--but that is not how you do it. So what is your measuring stick?

-- ("faith01@myway.com"), September 21, 2004.


faith, I hear God Yahweh's voice, Jesus voice,death's voice,....,not yet S...n My brother has.

When things come to pass, faith. That's one.

The voice is two.

Never am I told to do evil, that's three.

The Christian Yahwist

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), September 21, 2004.


Here I am again. I apologize for not reading up on this. I'd been given the password but due to the mix up in posts.. I was unable to find my orginal one. First.. my name is Stephanie. I'm quite female. :) Second, I hate to admit it.. but the posts I've skimmed have become a debate and have left me a bit puzzled. How do I know what to believe when there are so many different ways to translate and theorize the same scripture or book? I know I should ask and trust God, but you all seem to have done that very thing yet STILL have arguments and different answers for salvation and Jesus, etc, etc. So why are they all so different when the same God has given you this insight? I just don't know what I'm supposed to believe. What if MY way of following God is the wrong way. Meaning, if what a few people are saying is true.. and that my salvation depends on whether or not I have good works.. am I hell bound? A lot of disagreements in church aren't that big of an issue, but I think salvation is a BIG issue. Especially when the half of you believe the other half is going to hell. How do I know I'm in the right half? The one good thing is that no matter how far I fall I really can't let go of that one, general, belief in God and Jesus Christ. I've even tried at some points, but it just ate at my brain. I guess that's a good sign? :o I want what so many people I know have: security (hence the name of this thread). I want to be able to be secure and able to say, "If I was run over by a car right here and now I'm confident I'd go to heaven with God!" That's all. What can I do? As far as I can tell, I love everyone I know and I haven't any grudges. And I've done as much as I can in believing.. Adding to that, on Sunday I'll be meeting with the assistant pastor of my church for prayer. Maybe she can shed some light on the situation. Thanks...

-- Steph Y (Zellos@hotmail.com), September 21, 2004.

Hi Steph,

Glad you found it! In my opinion, you're asking all the right questions. A lot of people are content just to go along with whatever they're being told, never considering whether what they believe is true or not.

I can only offer some advice from my personal experience. I don't claim it's better than anyone else's advice. You'll have to keep searching for the truth and don't give up on God. I believe if we are humble and honestly seek to do His will and not ours, that He will lead us to the truth.

It's awesome that you haven't lost your faith in Jesus. Hold on to that faith and strive to live it everyday. God will keep His promise. It may be a long journey, but God will lead you to the truth. The hard part may be accepting that truth. Keep praying, keep searching, keep reading Scripture. Faith, Elipidio, and I already mentioned a few other opinions at the other forum.

There is objective truth out there. The struggle is to make our subjective reality match that objective truth. Personally, my major difficulty is always my pride. I always struggle to be humble and accept what is true. Only by God's grace is this possible and I fall short all the time. I'll pray that God puts the truth in your heart. Meanwhile, I look forward to seeing more posts from you.

-- Andy S ("ask3332004@yahoo.com"), September 22, 2004.


I don't know who is going to Hell. God and only God knows that. Works don't get you to Heaven. Faith in Christ is the basis of Salvation. Works are part of God's will.

........................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), September 22, 2004.


I suspect that Steph is a Catholic--trying to prove the Catholic notion that we need to Church hierarchy to think for us and tell us what the Bible says.

However--Jesus fully expected the hearers of His day to be well versed in their Scriptures. I suspect He wants the same from us. The Bible reveals that interpretation should not be a private matter-- such as we see within many cult-like religions. The Jehovah Witnesses and the Mormons--as well as the Catholic Church, interpret the Scripture and declare that if you do not believe their private interpretation then you are excommunicated! Surely Jesus disliked religion because the religious type tended to favor their own doctrine and tradition above God's Word. We see this in many religions of today.

I'll say it again Steph--because you seem to have missed this:

Rather than worrying or listening to what *everyone*--whoever they are--is telling you, why not just trust God and His Word?

People like to throw spins and twists into the Scriptures--but to those who are truly seeking God and His truth, the Scriptures are a security blanket and you can rest in and trust what they reveal to you.

So my question is this--do you study the Word of God--and do you have an insatiable hunger for Him?

God tells us that if we seek Him with all our heart, soul and mind-- He will reveal Himself to us.

Find a good Bible believing church that offers Bible study. Not a cult like church that won't allow for questions--but a church that models itself after the church in the book of Acts. Baptist congregations--non Calvinistic., are very good.

You don't want to sit there and be told what everything means and then be threatened with excommunication if you don't buy what they are selling. That is a big red-flag warning sign in my opinion.

A good Bible study should allow for you to experience revelation. That is how God's Word works. He reveals what we need when we need it. This really takes a life time of study.

In the meanwhile--I can tell you that if your salvation experience was real--you cannot be lost. Did you have revelation and just know that Jesus Christ is who He says He is--and did you confess with your lips that He is Lord? Did you ask Him to come into your heart and reside there forever? Did you give your life to Him? Do you just know that He died for your sins--in your place., and that He will come for you at the end of the age?

Salvation is a gift--we are pardoned for the debt we incured at the time of the fall. If you have been forgiven by receiving Christ as your personal Savior--then you are saved. Now you will live your life delivered from the power of sin. This doesn't mean that you won't ever sin again--it just means that now you will not want that in your life--and you now have the power to resist sin.

But you need to be in the Word of God everyday in oreder to understand just what it is that God would consider wrong for you in this life.

Seek Him with all your heart and He will answer you. It just may not be in your time--but His. Be patient.

Faith

-- ("faith01@myway.com"), September 22, 2004.


The same would apply to Faith. Her personal interpretations will come into question and excommunication from her church if those interpretations go against her church doctrines. What's your point, Faith?

....................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), September 22, 2004.


huh?

My church does not have such practices rod. We hold Bible studies--we break up into small groups and travel to each other's homes--studying the Word of God--together. There is always a qualified teacher-paster- -seminary graduate among us. But we are allowed to ask questions and choose to agree with an interpretation or reject it.

The point is--rod, that revelation comes to each of us who honestly seek truth.

We may not ever agree about the rapture or the timing of things--etc. But if we have the basic tenents [which we do--such as agreement on who Christ is and how we are saved etc..] then those other details do not matter.

Steph is forcing her point by these postings...but she fails to recognize that most of the posters here are Catholic. There is you, Andy., Emily and Gail. Elpidio is a lone ranger--who invented his own thing--and I am the protestant. Zarove occasionally posts---and yet Steph noticed disagreement among us and thinks it is going to prove her point.

Sorry to cut you to the chase Steph--but I forsee what you are trying to do.

And I will tell you that if you were a sincere seeker--you would be more familiar with the Word of God. But your questions betray you-- and reveal to me that you do not know the Scriptures. So I can safely assume that you are a Catholic.

-- ("faith01@myway.com"), September 22, 2004.


Elpidio--

You didn't answer my question though..

How do you know that you are not being deceived?

The apparitions of Mary are deceptions too--and they don't seem to be telling people to do evil either.

But isn't it evil to deny Jesus Christ is God--if that is the case?

You spend a lot of time leading people away from the truth in Scripture. If you are wrong--Elpidio--then what this spirit is telling you to do--is indeed evil. Sugar-coated evil will never seem like it is a bad thing. Quite the contrary....

So how do you know? Seriously--what is your measuring rod? Are you relying on your own understanding?

-- ("faith01@myway.com"), September 22, 2004.


But we are allowed to ask questions and choose to agree with an interpretation or reject it.

---Where in the world is the truth to be found if you all can't agree on an "interpretation"? Sounds like Plecebo Doctrine to me. Obviously, the truth is relative to the thinker, but not really pure truth at all, then.--

There is always a qualified teacher-paster- -seminary graduate among us.

--Hmm. Is he of the Catholic doctrine or of the numerous Protestant doctrines? Which one?--

The point is--rod, that revelation comes to each of us who honestly seek truth.

--Hm...Who decides if one is being honestly seeking the truth? You, your pastor, the congregation, who??--

then those other details do not matter.

--Hm...Of course , not for a "Sola" doctrine.--

And I will tell you that if you were a sincere seeker--you would be more familiar with the Word of God. But your questions betray you-- and reveal to me that you do not know the Scriptures. So I can safely assume that you are a Catholic.

--And, that's a bad thing? I guess for a Protestant it would be,--

...............

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), September 22, 2004.


So how do you know? Seriously--what is your measuring rod? Are you relying on your own understanding?-Faith.

Hmm. I read, listen, discuss, debate, experience, think, wonder, observe, pray, hope, believe, guess, and suffer. I don't know all of the truth all of the time, but I do have a hunch. I also can see contradictions, which really bug me.

..............

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), September 22, 2004.


I guess we will be judged by the way we judge others. Hmmm....

...........

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), September 22, 2004.


Rod?

You asked: ---Where in the world is the truth to be found if you all can't agree on an "interpretation"? Sounds like Plecebo Doctrine to me. Obviously, the truth is relative to the thinker, but not really pure truth at all, then.--

Are you under the misconception that since many people twist and contort the Scriptures.., or deny the truth revealed and so invent false doctrine--that the truth cannot be found within the pages of Scripture--to those who honestly seek it? Doesn't that render the Word of God useless then? For everyone?

There is nothing in the Scriptures that indicate that truth cannot be found by an honest seeker unless he allows the Roman Catholic religion to determine it for him.

Just because many people misinterpret the Word of God--does not mean that it cannot be accurately interpreted. The trick is actually turning to it [the Word], and allowing the Holy Spirit to guide you. Only those found in Christ can accurately understand the Scriptures-- by the way. That's God's design. He will confound the wisdom of the wise and render the cross foolishness to those who do not believe. The parable is another tool to keep the unbeliever in the dark.., as is the symbolic language. Unbelievers will simply be confused by the truth--until they are in Christ by faith. The gospel will convict the true seeker.

--Hmm. Is he of the Catholic doctrine or of the numerous Protestant doctrines? Which one?--

He is a biblical Christian--definately not Catholic!

--Hm...Who decides if one is being honestly seeking the truth? You, your pastor, the congregation, who??--

No rod--God does this...and then He reveals Himself to you--through His Word. And suddenly you just know the truth--recognize Him and are convicted....

--And, that's a bad thing? I guess for a Protestant it would be,--

What is a bad thing rod--is the deceitful way of this poster..If I am correct.

---------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------

So how do you know? Seriously--what is your measuring rod? Are you relying on your own understanding?-Faith. Hmm. I read, listen, discuss, debate, experience, think, wonder, observe, pray, hope, believe, guess, and suffer. I don't know all of the truth all of the time, but I do have a hunch. I also can see contradictions, which really bug me.

This question was for Elpidio--rod. Elpidio listens to spirits who vistit him. I asked him how does he know that these spirits are not of the devil? The Scriptures reveal that we can know the spirit of antichrist by knowing the Scriptures--the Word of God is our measuring stick--rod. Elpidio does not hold the Scriptures as such-- and has actually claimed much of the Bible to be false. So what is his measuring stick?

-- ("faith01@myway.com"), September 22, 2004.


After reading your view, it seems that it doesn't matter what faith system one embraces. All those I've encountered claimed to have the Holy Spirit indwelling in them. They all have the truth, Faith. Even Elpidio has the Holy Spirit and claims to have the truth. I see a bucket with many leaky holes in it. That's the problem with self- interpretations. You condemn the Catholic Church, yet they too have the Holy Spirit . They all claim to have the Holy Spirit.

............

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), September 22, 2004.


What I find intriguing is how I am condemned to Hell by some doctrines and not by others. Yet, I still manage to cling to my Catholic upbringing. Yes, your doctrine will have be pretty much fried, even after becoming one of your church members, Faith.

...........

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), September 22, 2004.


Not quite sure how to decifer this:

Yes, your doctrine will have be pretty much fried, even after becoming one of your church members, Faith

But I don't suppose it really matters.

You have a funny way of losing it to your emotion rod..

Can't really get into any serious discussion with you if you don't understand me., and if you refuse to respect the Word Of God as valid and wholy authoritive.

I gotta go... ...........

-- ("faith01@myway.com), September 22, 2004.


oops,Yes, your doctrine will have me pretty much fried, even after becoming one of your church members, Faith .

I know; People rarely understand where I'm coming from or where I'm headed. All I'm trying to say is that there are many different doctrines under the "Christian" umbrella. If I pick one, it should be the one that doesn't condemn me. Isn't it all about Salvation and staying out of Hell, anyway?

Here's my counter:

I can never get into a humorous conversation with you because your so serious, Faith.

No, it is about being saved. There are many out there claiming to have the truth. It is ultimately up to us to decide what is the truth and to believe in it.

.............. ....................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), September 22, 2004.


Uh....retreat is always an option.

.............

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), September 22, 2004.


Emotionalism? Let's try facts, instead of emotionalism, Faith. How many times has this forum condemned the Catholic? How many times have you condemned the Catholic? How many times have I been personally condemned? These are facts waiting to be answered.

..........

-- rod (ereyrod@yahoo.com), September 22, 2004.


Faith, you throw this at Catholics:

"There is nothing in the Scriptures that indicate that truth cannot be found by an honest seeker unless he allows the Roman Catholic religion to determine it for him. "

Then you wonder why I respond the way I do. You call it, "Emotionalism".

.................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), September 22, 2004.


Faith: Can't really get into any serious discussion with you[rod] if you don't understand me[Faith]., and if you refuse to respect the Word Of God as valid and wholy authoritive.

rod: I understand you, Faith. You believe that the Scriptures justify your rejection of the Catholic Church. You believe that the Catholic Church is not in accordance with Scriptures. How clear can you be when you speak against the Church?

You also presume that I do not respect God and the Scriptures. It isn't that; I do not hold some interpretations of those Scriptures as "valid" or "authoritative". Gosh! some of those interpretations have me frying in Hell. So, I'm not against the Scriptures. I'm against some interpretations of those Scriptures. I can stand about four feet away between you and Elpidio. You have your doctrine and he has his. Both of you will claim to hold the truth. Neither one of you will budge from your stance in your faith. Now, multiply that stance by the number of denominations and their doctrines. They aren't budging either anytime soon. The non-Christian Judaism hasn't budged from their view of Christ/Messiah either.

But, you say that anyone can find the truth if they sincerely seek for it. How can that be accurate when we see such diverse doctrines and faith systems in this world? You call it "distortion"; I call it "faith". But, do we dare call it "truth"? I can't. The facts don't add up. We are still talking "interpretation", not Scriptures. Any man can interpret the Scriptures to his liking. Well, sure. Any man can find the truth he is seeking because it will be his truth that he has found. You have your truth, Elpidio his, and me mine because, as you've concluded, any man can find the truth. And, so has the Catholic Church found the truth. And each of us has faith in that truth. This sure does sound like a fallacy or a paradox to me.

This is the perfect cue for you, Faith, to stand up and yell that you have the Truth and all others are in error. Then the next guy and the next guy and so on can do the same. I'm beginning to feel as if no one can hold the truth, not as long as humans are in charge of deciphering things on their own. Ah! but the Holy Spirit will indwell in the believer and will provide the truth. How many people have you met claiming to have the Holy Spirit? How many believe that they do? Then why the different beliefs and doctrines?

....................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), September 22, 2004.


There is only one truth and somebody has it. You say that you have it, but the Catholic Church is not in the truth. I say that if the Catholic Church does not have it, then there is no truth to be had. Everything must therefore be a myth.

.................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), September 22, 2004.


Could we get back on topic rod?

Have you finished ranting about every thing else?

We are discussing faith verses works and Elpidios false theology and visits from Satan.

It's that old measuring rod--rod.

The Scriptures are it.

You say that I have my faith and Elpidio has His and the mCatholic has theirs...but I say that there is only one truth--and it can be known and it is revealed in God's Word.

You must know the Word--and the only way to do that is to study it with your church.

Does the Catholic know the Bible? No...with the rare exception of a few--who only know what they've been told.

Where's the revelation in that?

I have asked my leaders and teachers of the Word many questions and they simply say to me "Don't worry--it will come to you in God's time." That is how revelation works.

I don't know that Catholic theology is false because some teacher sat down with me and pointed it out. I remember struggling with the idea that I was leaving my Church behind. I remember asking God if it was a mistake and I remember being on my knees about it. No one could answer this for me. But then--little by little--the Scriptures spoke to me and I would see the answer. It's funny that the answer would *suddenly* come from a verse I had read maybe ten times before, but never saw it.

Now--of course., I am convicted--and then when I read a book like *A Woman Rides the Beast*--I simply know it rings true. But it wasn't Dave Hunt who first revealed these things to me. It was the Scriptures themselves. The book of Hebrews and Revelation--in particular.

Elpidio has no source of truth other than his own imaginings and understanding. What does God warn us about such vices?:

Trust in the LORD with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding; Proverbs 3:5

*******

Then Jesus said, "He who has ears to hear, let him hear." When he was alone, the Twelve and the others around him asked him about the parables. He told them, "The secret of the kingdom of God has been given to you. But to those on the outside everything is said in parables so that,

" 'they may be ever seeing but never perceiving, and ever hearing but never understanding; otherwise they might turn and be forgiven!' "

Then Jesus said to them, "Don't you understand this parable? How then will you understand any parable? The farmer sows the word. Some people are like seed along the path, where the word is sown. As soon as they hear it, Satan comes and takes away the word that was sown in them. Others, like seed sown on rocky places, hear the word and at once receive it with joy. But since they have no root, they last only a short time.

When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, they quickly fall away. Still others, like seed sown among thorns, hear the word; but the worries of this life, the deceitfulness of wealth and the desires for other things come in and choke the word, making it unfruitful. Others, like seed sown on good soil, hear the word, accept it, and produce a crop--thirty, sixty or even a hundred times what was sown." Mark 4:9-20

********

But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and all of you know the truth. I do not write to you because you do not know the truth, but because you do know it and because no lie comes from the truth. Who is the liar? It is the man who denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a man is the antichrist--he denies the Father and the Son. No one who denies the Son has the Father; whoever acknowledges the Son has the Father also.

See that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. If it does, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father. And this is what he promised us--even eternal life. I am writing these things to you about those who are trying to lead you astray. As for you, the anointing you received from him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about all things and as that anointing is real, not counterfeit--just as it has taught you, remain in him. 1 John 2:20-27

*******************

It seems to me that the constant theme throughout Scripture is that the Word of God is where come to know the truth.



-- ("faith01@myway.com), September 22, 2004.


Ranting?

Anyway, you said, "I have asked my leaders and teachers of the Word many questions and they simply say to me "Don't worry--it will come to you in God's time." That is how revelation works".

Elpidio says the same; it has come to him in time. I prefer the answers when I ask them, not in some nebulus cloud. A leader who gives such an answer is one we should proceed with caution. Has the answer come to them? Why would they not reveal it if they have it?

Ranting? Perhaps you perceive it as "ranting". Elpidio can also be a metaphor for the various doctrines and faith systems out there. I'm not ranting.

................ .................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), September 22, 2004.


Faith said: "Steph is forcing her point by these postings...but she fails to recognize that most of the posters here are Catholic. There is you, Andy., Emily and Gail. Elpidio is a lone ranger--who invented his own thing--and I am the protestant. Zarove occasionally posts--- and yet Steph noticed disagreement among us and thinks it is going to prove her point." Faith. I think that was really bad judgment on your part. You just personally attacked me and formulated your own opinion on something that's not relevant and isn't even truth. So you slandered me. Please try to take my feelings and post into consideration before you post things like that. I apologize if it wasn't meant to be taken personally. But it was. So because I'm not familiar with scripture I am not a true seeker of God? I thought I already stated that I'm just now breaking off onto my own. I'm not Catholic, nor am I any denomination. I'm currently in inhabiting a four square church which I'm quite pleased with (Harvest Christian Fellowship). As I said in my very first post- I have ALWAYS believed in God and Jesus but I've never really done anything to persue it. Just NOW, I am. So NO. I am NOT familiar with scripture. I only know what I've been taught in church and from the parts of the bible I've read on my own so far. I'm glad you're able to, confidently say that your beliefs are true and that you can stick by them, Faith but that's not the case with me. If I were so brushed up on my scriptures and understood them I wouldn't be here, would I? No. I would know the scriptures, believe them and be confident in what I believed. The end result would be no confusion. So being confused ultimately means I do not understand something. I do read the bible, and I do attend church. And I am not a part of your debate forums. I'm asking a honest question and trying to get an honest answer. My whole reasoning for questions in denominations theorizing scripture comes off the fact that a good bunch of them believe in Christ and have their own way of translating scripture. Obviously if one was so apparently wrong, they would have been persuaded by now. Which is why I'm ASKING these questions. Not to mention, if I were Catholic, I doubt I'd be getting together with my assistant female pastor. I thought they had priests in mass? And I say this not trying to offend any Catholics on this board, but to only disprove that I'm not an evil person trying to work out my agenda. That REALLY insulted me. Anyway. I thank you all for your postive reinforcment and advice, even if it was hard to find with all the argumentive posts. I've already made an appointment with my assistance pastor (as said in a previous post) and hope to find out what the source of my problem is there. I really hope to get things sorted out since my first contact with God was a great enjoyment. I'd like to experience that again. I will no longer be replying to messages on this board, so if anyone has anything else they'd like to say, feel free to email me. Again.. thank you. :)

-- Steph Y (Zellos@hotmail.com), September 22, 2004.

I had a few serious errors in there that I thought I should clear up before anyone comments on them. Disprove should be prove and assistance should be assistant. And I apologize for the above and random rant.

-- Steph Y (Zellos@hotmail.com), September 22, 2004.

Steph, you are always welcomed to post here. If some perceive those posts as ranting, that's cool. We can open up a topic by "ranting", too. Every time a person posts, we dig into our own views and sometimes get further meanings. That's cool.

Please don't let Faith get to you. I'm found your posts to be sincere.

.............

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), September 22, 2004.


StephClearly you must have been raised Catholic. Any other Christian church would have exposed you to the Scriptures. Yet you say you have always believed in God and Jesus. How did you come by that faith if it was not revealed to you through the Word?

Just like me--it was revealed to you through the Catholic Church and what little of the gospel you may have gotten in that Church. Surely it wasn't the jehovah Witnesses or the M0ormons who revealed Jesus Christ to you--unless you don't accept the Trinity. But I got the feeling you do accept the Trinity. Maybe you said so.

In any event--any Christian Church would have had you in the Scriptures all the while you were growing up. This is why I know you were at least once Catholic--if not anymore. And you were clearly trying to chase home the idea that Scripture is too uninterpretable for people--after all--just look at these un-agreeing people here. Look at all those denominations out there!

I am confident you were trying to make a point in there somewhere. And that is not to insult you--it is just that I can read you.

-- ("faith01@myway.com"), September 22, 2004.


Ok, Faith, you can take the firewood back to the shed for later use. Let her go. So what if she has an agenda? Is it so powerful an agenda that it would be hard to refute? Hm?

I'm off to spend dinner with my kids; the wife has to work late. I'm not retreating from your discussions. I have no agenda, other than my usual ones.

.............

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), September 22, 2004.


Excuse me rod...

But who died and left you judge and dictator here?

I have no fire wood--and it would seem to me that you are the one thinking in those terms.

I have not once mentioned fire or hell--yet you are obsessed and seem to be accusing me of something.

I am simply defending the truth as I see it.

-- ("faith01@myway.com"), September 22, 2004.


I'm at the other board now, where I left you a lenghty reply, Faith. I have a hard time reading these posts since their massed together in clumps (so no one ran me out). Felt like I needed to reply. The truth as you see it is wrong because I have no agenda. I'm asking questions, not joining in a debate. I was actually raised Christian, not Catholic and you would have no way of knowing whether or not I was. For a good portion of my life, my father was disabled so we did not attend a church regulary. My parents had bad experiences with churches so we were 'homeless' for a while. For instance, in Florida we (funny enough) were in a cult like church where the pastor tried to convince my mother to divorce my father. I know some scripture, Faith, but not on the section I'm looking for help in. Go read my message on the other board. I think I said things nicely there. :)

-- Steph Y (Zellos@hotmail.com), September 22, 2004.

And adding to my previous comment on, "You have no way of knowing", The only way of knowing you have of my background or current state is by what I tell you. So you're either taking my word or calling me a liar. I believe that's why I got so upset.

-- Steph Y (Zellos@hotmail.com), September 22, 2004.

"Excuse me rod... But who died and left you judge and dictator here? "- Faith.

Uh, you did. Anytime you leave the floor, it is our time to put our views in motion. That's how a forum works. I guess we are all judge and dictators in a democracy. Your excused.

..................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), September 22, 2004.


Hi Steph.

Some will consider Catholics to be Christians; others will not, of course. Perhaps you have been taught that Catholics do not fit into the "Christian" category. I think that in time and more study you may come to the conclusion that Catholics are Christians. Some will proclaim that Catholics have ordered Christianity. Of course, your study will draw the conclusions that you will find. I'm not gonna try to force those conclusions on you. But, I thought I might give you something else to consider in regards to Catholicism.

....................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), September 22, 2004.


Oh no. I said it without thinking. I didn't mean for it to come out that way. I just never had a denomination, so I called myself Christian as opposed to Catholic without thinking that Catholic is considered Christianity. Let me correct myself: I was raised on bible food and speaches from my parents. ^_^

-- Steph Y (Zellos@hotmail.com), September 22, 2004.

Hee...hee.....isn't it a wonderful forum?! It is ok to make mistakes and say our peace. Ah! the joys of being human.....ok, sometimes it can be a hassle.

:)

Faith- I meant you're excused. You asserted.

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-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), September 22, 2004.


Thanks for your input, Stephanie.

Like I said before, feel free to post any time.

As you found out, many people post here of different denominations.

By asking, you are able to get a better perspective of what you are looking for.

Our friend faith tends to be rough though she doesn't mean any harm. We are used to her. In my case, it is over 2 years where I met her at the Catholic Forum.

I am closing this thread for discussion, since at least you have responded.

Any other questions, open a new thread.

Assistant Moderator

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), September 22, 2004.


Is it right in thinking any denomination that accepts God and Jesus as their savior is within the hold of Christianity?

-- Steph Y (Zellos@hotmail.com), September 22, 2004.

Hi Steph,

I went ahead and moved your question to a new thread.

Click Here to go to Steph's new thread.

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-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), September 22, 2004.


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