Steph's: Who Is In the Christian Fold/Hold?

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Is it right in thinking any denomination that accepts God and Jesus as their savior is within the hold of Christianity?

-- Steph Y (Zellos@hotmail.com), September 22, 2004.

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-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), September 22, 2004

Answers

I took the liberty of starting a new thread with your question, Steph.

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-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), September 22, 2004.


Yes, I wonder that too. I guess we would have to define the one true doctrine/theology that defines Christianity. At the very least, we may have to accept God, Jesus Christ, His only begotten Son, The Sacrifice on the Cross, Faith in Christ as our Saviour, Baptism, Confession of Sins, Repentance, Works (before, during, after). and the Indwelling of the Holy Spirit as tenets of Christianity.

Then, we will realize the multi-faceted meanings of each tenet. Hmm, I wonder if many denominations share the same beliefs.

............

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), September 22, 2004.


The Bible does that for us. It defines Christianity for us. But you would have to study the Scriptures to understand that.

It's not about excepting God and Jesus...it is about believing that Jesus is God.

A true Christian believes what the Bible reveals about Jesus. It is a beautifully woven tapestry--the Old and New Testaments., both pointing to Messiah *Jesus* Joshuameaning God is Salvation. Christ means *divinity.*

And so a Christian recognizes just who Jesus is, and what Jesus accomplished at calvary. This is the gospel--that he died, was buried and on the third day--he rose--and he is returning for his church/believers at the end of the age. Believe that he paid for your sin--in your place, and you can be saved. You just have to be willing to humble yourself--admit you are a sinner and that Jesus is Lord-- and you will be shown mercy...

Jehovah Witnesses and Mormons do not believe this and cannot be considered Christians...

It's not about believing Jesus existed.., it's about believing Jesus. Believing God's revelation about Him. A good place to start is Isaiah 53 written about 700 years before Jesus came:

Isaiah 53

Who has believed our message and to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed?

He grew up before him like a tender shoot, and like a root out of dry ground. He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him, nothing in his appearance that we should desire him.

He was despised and rejected by men, a man of sorrows, and familiar with suffering. Like one from whom men hide their faces he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

Surely he took up our infirmities and carried our sorrows, yet we considered him stricken by God, smitten by him, and afflicted.

But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon him, and by his wounds we are healed.

We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of us has turned to his own way; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all.

He was oppressed and afflicted, yet he did not open his mouth; he was led like a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is silent, so he did not open his mouth.

By oppression and judgment he was taken away. And who can speak of his descendants? For he was cut off from the land of the living; for the transgression of my people he was stricken.

He was assigned a grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death, though he had done no violence, nor was any deceit in his mouth.

Yet it was the LORD's will to crush him and cause him to suffer, and though the LORD makes his life a guilt offering, he will see his offspring and prolong his days, and the will of the LORD will prosper in his hand.

After the suffering of his soul, he will see the light of life and be satisfied; by his knowledge my righteous servant will justify many, and he will bear their iniquities.

Therefore I will give him a portion among the great, [7] and he will divide the spoils with the strong, because he poured out his life unto death, and was numbered with the transgressors. For he bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

-- ("faith01@myway.com"), September 22, 2004.


Faith-

Hmmm......I guess you would not have any objections to "creeds"?

Cuz, I could post the creed I grew up with. It touches on the same exact Scriptures you've quoted.

.................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), September 22, 2004.


Welcome Steph,

I've had a rocky Christian road. Born and raised Catholic, good Catholic schools, all positive experiences. Lost my faith about 27 years ago became sort of an atheist agnostic type. I had a good run as a non believer, never "hit bottom," no health problems, no epiphanies...

Just decided there was something more,--- that I wasn't all that wise.

I returned to Catholicism because its the most familiar to me. I see good and similarities in many religious orientations. Just made sense to me to return to being Catholic. I understand it, it fits the way I have always lived. Even as an atheist I acted like a Catholic "without prayers, belief, church etc"

My orientation leads me to think we work out our salvation through out our lives, and God with perfect mercy and judgement will be making the final decision.

Many of us here have passionate and sometimes heated discussions. I tend to be more of a pessimist in my expectations, but but I trust/intiut that most "here" whether agreeing, or getting ready for the next theological battle are going to "make it."

Hope I do too!

(I also know more than a few think I'm completely wrong about the above)

-- Jim (furst@flash.net), September 22, 2004.



Faith posted her compilations to exhibit her beliefs/creed. Here is mine:

Here is a link about The Apostle's Creed.

Here are two versions of the Apostle's Creed:

The Apostle’s Creed

I believe in God, the Father almighty, creator of heaven and earth.
I believe in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord.
He was conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit and born of the Virgin Mary.
He suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died, and was buried.  He descended into hell.
On the third day He rose again.
He ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father.  He will come again to judge the living and the dead.
I believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy Catholic Church, the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body, and the life everlasting.  Amen.

The Nicene Creed

We believe in one God, the Father, the Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, of all that is, seen and unseen.
We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only Son of God, eternally begotten of the Father, God from
God, Light from Light, true God from true God, begotten, not made, one in Being with the Father. 
Through Him all things were made.  For us men and for our salvation He came down
from heaven:
by the power of the Holy Spirit He was born of the Virgin Mary, and became man.
For our sake He was crucified under Pontius Pilate; He suffered, died, and was buried.
On the third day He rose again in fulfillment of the Scriptures;
He ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father.  He will come again in glory to
judge the living and the dead, and his kingdom will have no end.
We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life, who proceeds from the Father and the Son. 
With the Father and the Son He is worshipped and glorified.  He has spoken through the
Prophets.  We believe in one Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church.  We acknowledge one baptism
for the forgiveness of sins.  We look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the
world to come.  Amen.
http://www.turrisfortis. com/creed.html

------------------------------------------------

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), September 22, 2004.


Some denominations share parts of the Apostles' Creed (both versions).

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-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), September 22, 2004.


Now, faith, you quoted not onlyIsaiah 53 for Rod now , but you also did for me in another thread.

Let me respond now. This passages shows Yahweh is not Jesus. Yet they show Jesus as the one showing us the way to salvation.

Here Yahweh makes Jesus the object of our iniquities.

Isaiah 53:6 We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of us has turned to his own way; and the LORD(Yahweh) has laid on him (Jesus) the iniquity of us all.

Yahweh speaks of Jesus death. Does, Yahweh is not the one dying.

Isa. 53:8 By oppression and judgment he(Jesus) was taken away. And who can speak of his(Jesus) descendants(Messianic, Ebionites, Christians...)? For he(Jesus) was cut off from the land of the living; for the transgression of my(Yahweh's) people he(Jesus) was stricken.

Even the prophet makes here a distinction between God Yahweh and Jesus. Again, Jesus is the one dying, not Yahweh.

(Here the prophet speaks:)Isa. 53:10 Yet it was the LORD's (Yahweh's) will to crush him(Jesus) and cause him(Jesus) to suffer, and though the LORD(Yahweh) makes his(Jesus) life a guilt offering, he (Jesus) will see his offspring(Messianic, Ebionim, Christians,...) and prolong his days, and the will of the LORD(Yahweh) will prosper in his(Jesus) hand.

Therefore I(Yahweh) will give him(Jesus) a portion among the great, [7] and he(Jesus) will divide the spoils with the strong, because he (Jesus) poured out his(Jesus) life unto death(Jesus), and (Jesus)was numbered with the transgressors. For he(Jesus) bore the sin of many, and (Jesus)made intercession for the transgressors.

So this faith makes 100% certain not only that Yahwheh is not Jesus but Jesus is the man God Yahweh chose to show the way for people to be saved.

Once one puts the right names in the passage, then the passage comes clear. That was what Phillip did for the Eunuch in Acts 8:26-35.

The Christian Yahwist

The Man of Yahweh

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), September 22, 2004.


Here is the original creed in acts, Rod.

Act 10:1 There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of the band called the Italian [band],

Parentheses and boldfacing and underlining is mine.

Act 10:2 [A] devout [man], and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God always.

Act 10:3 He saw in a vision evidently about the ninth hour of the day an angel of God(Yahweh) coming in to him, and saying unto him, Cornelius.

Act 10:4 And when he looked on him, he was afraid, and said, What is it, Lord? And he said unto him, Thy prayers and thine alms are come up for a memorial before God(Yahweh).

Act 10:5 And now send men to Joppa, and call for [one] Simon, whose surname is Peter:

Act 10:6 He lodgeth with one Simon a tanner, whose house is by the sea side: he shall tell thee what thou oughtest to do.

Act 10:7 And when the angel which spake unto Cornelius was departed, he called two of his household servants, and a devout soldier of them that waited on him continually;

Act 10:8 And when he had declared all [these] things unto them, he sent them to Joppa.

Act 10:9 On the morrow, as they went on their journey, and drew nigh unto the city, Peter went up upon the housetop to pray about the sixth hour:

Act 10:10 And he became very hungry, and would have eaten: but while they made ready, he fell into a trance,

Act 10:11 And saw heaven opened, and a certain vessel descending unto him, as it had been a great sheet knit at the four corners, and let down to the earth:

Act 10:12 Wherein were all manner of fourfooted beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls of the air.

Act 10:13 And there came a voice(God Yahweh,Jesus, or angel) to him, Rise, Peter; kill, and eat.

Act 10:14 But Peter said, Not so, Lord(could mean God , master, or mister)(God Yahweh,Jesus, or angel); for I have never eaten any thing that is common or unclean.

Act 10:15 And the voice(God Yahweh,Jesus, or an angel) [spake] unto him again the second time, What God(Yahweh) hath cleansed, [that] call not thou common.

Act 10:16 This was done thrice: and the vessel was received up again into heaven.

Act 10:17 Now while Peter doubted in himself what this vision which he had seen should mean, behold, the men which were sent from Cornelius had made enquiry for Simon's house, and stood before the gate,

Act 10:18 And called, and asked whether Simon, which was surnamed Peter, were lodged there.

Act 10:19 While Peter thought on the vision, the Spirit(God Yahweh, Jesus or an angel?) said unto him, Behold, three men seek thee.

Act 10:20 Arise therefore, and get thee down, and go with them, doubting nothing: for I have sent them.

Act 10:21 Then Peter went down to the men which were sent unto him from Cornelius; and said, Behold, I am he whom ye seek: what [is] the cause wherefore ye are come?

Act 10:22 And they said, Cornelius the centurion, a just man, and one that feareth God(Yahweh), and of good report among all the nation of the Jews, was warned from God(Yahweh) by an holy angel to send for thee into his house, and to hear words of thee.

Act 10:23 Then called he them in, and lodged [them]. And on the morrow Peter went away with them, and certain brethren from Joppa accompanied him.

Act 10:24 And the morrow after they entered into Caesarea. And Cornelius waited for them, and had called together his kinsmen and near friends.

Act 10:25 And as Peter was coming in, Cornelius met him, and fell down at his feet, and worshipped [him].

Act 10:26 But Peter took him up, saying, Stand up; I myself also am a man.

Act 10:27 And as he talked with him, he went in, and found many that were come together.

(A great truth about God's grace)

Act 10:28 And he said unto them, Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but God(Yahweh) hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean.

Act 10:29 Therefore came I [unto you] without gainsaying, as soon as I was sent for: I ask therefore for what intent ye have sent for me?

Act 10:30 And Cornelius said, Four days ago I was fasting until this hour; and at the ninth hour I prayed in my house, and, behold, a man (angel) stood before me in bright clothing,

Act 10:31 And said, Cornelius, thy prayer is heard, and thine alms are had in remembrance in the sight of God(Yahweh).

(Angel speaking)Act 10:32 Send therefore to Joppa, and call hither Simon, whose surname is Peter; he is lodged in the house of [one] Simon a tanner by the sea side: who, when he cometh, shall speak unto thee.

Act 10:33 Immediately therefore I sent to thee; and thou hast well done that thou art come. Now therefore are we all here present before God(Yahweh), to hear all things that are commanded thee of God (Yahweh).

Act 10:34 Then Peter opened [his] mouth, and said,

Of a truth I perceive that God (Yahweh)is no respecter of persons:

(Grace and righteousness in the same sentence in Peter's speech)

Act 10:35 But in every nation he (people)that feareth him (Yahweh), and worketh righteousness, is accepted (grace) with him (Yahweh).

Act 10:36 The word which [God](Yahweh) sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord (Master)of all:)

Act 10:37 That word, [I say], ye know, which was published throughout all Judaea, and began from Galilee, after the baptism which John preached;

Act 10:38 How God(Yahweh) anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God (Yahweh) was with him (Jesus).

Act 10:39 And we are witnesses of all things which he(Jesus) did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom they slew and hanged on a tree:

Act 10:40 Him (Jesus)God(Yahweh) raised up the third day, and shewed him (Jesus)openly;

Act 10:41 Not to all the people, but unto witnesses chosen before of God(Yahweh), [even] to us, who did eat and drink with him (Jesus) after he(Jesus) rose from the dead.

Act 10:42 And he(Jesus) commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he(Jesus) which was ordained of God(Yahweh) [to be] the Judge of quick and dead.

Act 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

Act 10:44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.

Act 10:45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Act 10:46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God (Yahweh). Then answered Peter,

Act 10:47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?

Act 10:48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord(Jesus). Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.

The Christian Yahwist

The Man of Yahweh

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), September 22, 2004.


No mention of being born of a virgin faith and Rod. No mention of Catholic Church.

No mention of Jesus being God Yahweh.

To this creed I subscribe.

The Christian Yahwist

The Man of Yahweh

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), September 22, 2004.



No Elpidio--

Because when you harmonize all of Scripture--the picture becomes quite clear.

The Bible tells us that no mere man can sacrifice his life for another's salvation.

The Scriptures reveal that Messiah is the lamb of God--and we find that the lamb of God--is none other than God in the flesh--because only God is perfect, and only he could provide the perfect sacrifice-- in Himself.

-- ("faith01@myway.com"), September 23, 2004.


Virgin Birth

St Matthew C.1 [23] "Behold, a virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and his name shall be called Emmanuel" (which means, God with us).

St Luke C.1 [26] In the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God to a city of Galilee named Nazareth, [27] to a virgin betrothed to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary. [28] And he came to her and said, "Hail, O favored one, the Lord is with you!" [29] But she was greatly troubled at the saying, and considered in her mind what sort of greeting this might be. [30] And the angel said to her, "Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God. [31] And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus.

The Church

St Matthew C.16 [18] And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it.

-- Ian (ib@vertifgo.com), September 24, 2004.


Ian...

You should trust the Bible on the issue of who is the Rock and head of the church--and what it reveals about elevating any man.

The Bible always reveals that God is the Rock.., and Jesus is God, so also the Rock, as revealed in the New Testament.

Yet the Catholic Church ignores this and insists that Peter (Petros) is the Rock of the church.

The Rock (Petras) or foundation of Christ's church--is Christ Himself! And it is more likely the *proclamation* that Peter made, and not Peter himself., that Christ was basing His statement to Peter on.

Peter answered Jesus when Jesus asked, "who do you say that I am?" Peter replied, "You are the Christ--the Son of the living God."

Jesus basically responded back by saying--you are so right!!--"And you are Petros"..small pebble, or disciple, part of the foundation...

But, "I", says Jesus, am going to build my church on this Petras (Larger Rock and foundation), which is the declaration that you (Petros) just made about Me (Jesus)., which is that I (Jesus) am the Christ!

"I appeal to you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree with one another so that there may be no divisions among you and that you may be perfectly united in mind and thought. My brothers, some from Chloe's household have informed me that there are quarrels among you. What I mean is this: One of you says, "I follow Paul"; another, "I follow Appollos"; another, I follow Cephas [Peter]"; still another, "I follow Christ."

Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Were you baptized in the name of Paul? (1 Corinthians 1: 10-13)

Brothers, I could not address you as spiritual but as worldly--mere infants in Christ. I gave you milk, not solid food, for you were not yet ready for it. You are still worldly. For since there is jealousy and quarreling among you, are you not worldly? Are you not acting like mere men? For when one says, "I follow Paul"; and another, "I follow Apollos," are you not mere men?

What, after all, is Apollos? And what is Paul? Only servants through whom you came to believe--as the Lord has assigned to each his task. I planted the seed, Apollos watered it--but God made it grow. So neither he who plants nor he who waters is anything, but only God who makes things grow. The man who plants and the man who waters have one purpose, and each will be rewarded according to his own labor. For we are God's fellow workers; you are God's field, God's building.

By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as an expert builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one should be careful how he builds. For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid--which is Jesus Christ. (1 Corinthians 3:1-11)

Do not deceive yourselves. If any one of you thinks he is wise by the standards of this age, he should become a *fool* so that he may become wise. For the wisdom of this world is foolishness in God's sight. As it is written: "He catches the wise in their craftiness"; and again, "The Lord knows that the thoughts of the wise are futile." So then, no more boasting about men! All things are yours, whether Paul or Apollos or Cephas [Peter] or the world or life or death or the present or the future--all are yours, and you are of Christ, and Christ is of God. (1 Corinthians 3:18-23)

-- ("faith01@myway.com"), September 24, 2004.


Faith, i have sene you run this argument many times before.

however, it makes great sense to use the natural meaning of the words as they appear.

here is the verse from the protestant KJV.

[13] When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am? [14] And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets. [15] He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? [16] And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. [17] And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. [18] And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. [19] And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

this has only one natural meaning.

if you still struggle, please appreciate that the handing over of the Keys to the Kingdom are intricately associated with the designation of St Peter as the Rock and first Pope.

here are some old extracts that cover the point:

"And Peter, on whom the Church of Christ is built, against which the gates of hell shall not prevail..." Origen(c.A.D. 232)

"Peter, who is called 'the rock on which the church should be built,' who also obtained 'the keys of the kingdom of heaven...' " Tertullian(c.A.D. 200)

there are plenty of these but the two above are pretty darned old.

so i ask you why Church Fathers were saying these things when the formal Canon of the Bible had yet to be settled.

you and Elpidio are at loggerheads over so many things but you both also make the same mistake -- you assume that Our Lord handed the Bible down from the Cross and said this is all you need to know.

He did not.

over a long period of time, numerous books were set down on paper (or the then equivalent) but the Church did not have to wait for that. it evangelised - and it grew and grew. the original priestst and bihops did not have a New Testament to hand. they relied upon the Tradition of the Church as much as any written materials.

then at a certain point the Church consolidated its books into the Bible, rejecting those that were heretical.

now, given that the Church Fathers seemed sure, before the books were selected, that St Peter is the Rock, do you really think that St Matthew would have been included if these verses meant as you argue they do.

of course not. St Matthew's Gospel was intended to show St Peter as the Rock - and if it said anything else, it would be as heretical as all the other books that were slung on the scrap heap at the time.

the Bible was not bound and handed down from the Cross at the Crucifixion.

simple.

-- Ian (ib@vertifgo.com), September 24, 2004.


I don't know about faith, Ian, but this has never been my position.

you and Elpidio are at loggerheads over so many things but you both also make the same mistake -- you assume that Our Lord handed the Bible down from the Cross and said this is all you need to know.

Since I believe that God Yahweh continues to reveal himself to humanity, then I don't believe everything there is to know is already codified in the Bible.

Otherwise I would not be ....

The Christian Yahwist...

The Man of Yahweh.

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), September 24, 2004.



you are absolutely correct Elpidio in that you do not argue for Sola Scriptura, in fact, as you say, quite the opposite.

in my rush to type i foolishly added "....and said this is all you need to know".

you have yr dreams and so that bit was indeed rash.

however, i do believe it is correct to say that you are under the same delusion that the Bible was handed down from the Cross.

your approach is to take the unitarian viewpoint an dthen to re- translate each bit of Scripture that does not suit your opinion. you have recently done this with St John Chapter 1 - "in the beginning was the Word, etc etc,....".

it's as if there is a dfinite original copy of Scripture and you are in some examination room, each attempting to translate from Aramaic or Coine Greek or Latin, into contemporary language.

the point i make is that - IF any part of Scripture contradicted Catholic teaching, it would never have made it into Scripture.

add to this the fact that Greek and Latin were linguae francae at the time and in succeeding centuries - ie a man would buy a loaf of bread in Latin or Greek as opposed to scurrying around a website dictionary -- and youmust see that the odds of anyone today coming up with the "true" translation is simply non-existent.

there are the books that do contradict Catholic teaching that never made it to the Bible -- and we ask why oh why?!?! well, because they contradicted teaching and were, therefore, unsound. they were therefore dismissed.

the original manuscripts of the New Testament do not exist, so far as i know. we can also assume that the Catholics who settled the Bible knew from Tradition what Our Lord intended us to believe.

If Our Lord was mere man, then the biggest fraud in history has occurred and MOREOVER we will never know the truth.

Faith is actually in a much inferior position to you. she relies upon English translations and attempts to re-interpret them. here the message is even simpler. if faith's was the correct interpretation, the books would never have been included.

i leave you with the simplest and extremely obvious case of St Justin MArtyr who clearly describes the Real Presence at the earliets stage of the Church. this tallies with St Paul who demans that we do not eat unworthily of the Eucharist.

you can translate every which-way, Elpidio; but that work has already been done by those much, much closer to the time of Our Lord, whose vernacular was Greek and Latin and Aramaic; and who had heard the stories that were passed down.

maybe we should discuss the Assumption of the Blessed Virgin. you CANNOT disprove that using yr semantic arguments and i will show you why.

have a good weekend, sir!

you are actually a prettyOK moderator. keep it up!

-- Ian (ib@vertifgo.com), September 24, 2004.


Elpidio and Ian,

I have yet to see a Christian Yahwist or a Catholic slither around questions and answers. It is important to face each question and not go side-stepping down a slithery path. Of course, some Protestants in this forum are good at facing the questions, too. Some...

Then, there are those answers.

..........

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), September 24, 2004.


Ian..,

All you have to do is ask yourself..."who" is revealed throughout Scripture as the Rock? In the Old Testament--God is the Rock and salvation of His people.

In the New Testament--Jesus is the Rock and foundation of His church.

The foundation of Christianity rises or falls on the truth of the cross.

Peter is just a man..

When Jesus says that this:

And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Clearly the it in the above verse is Peter's declaration about *who* Christ is....Jesus says that he is blessed to know this truth...it is revealed from the Father. He confirms Peter's place by using Petros--instead of Petras--when He addresses him.., and goes on to say that this rock is the foundation of His Church. This rock is the same as the it in the verse above. The topic of the entire section is about Peter's confession as to *who* Christ is. It is about Christ's Divinity....not Peter.

And I would add that all of the disciples--were given the keys., and have passed them on to all disciples...!

-- ("faith01@myway.com"), September 24, 2004.


Great job, Faith.

"And I would add that all of the disciples--were given the keys., and have passed them on to all disciples...! "

Including the Pope.

...............

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), September 24, 2004.


So, Faith, who holds the "keys" after the first key holders die?

................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), September 24, 2004.


rod.., please.

I am not talking about the man-made seat of the papacy. They don't even practice the real way in which one succeeds the other--with the laying on of hands. Nope. Not ever close. Done correctly--the pope would pick his successor and lay hands on him before he died...

The original twelve disciples passed on the keys to every new convert and believer ever to come... baptizing them in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit---as Jesus commanded them to do....

And so., as a disciple of Christ--I hold the keys too : )

The keys., by the way--are the knowledge of Christ...the keys to receiving eternal life, come in knowing Jesus as our Savior...

We have the keys and we pass them on when we lead others to this truth.

-- ("faith01@myway.com"), September 24, 2004.


You are absolutely right, faith. I never thought of that before.

I am not talking about the man-made seat of the papacy. They don't even practice the real way in which one succeeds the other--with the laying on of hands. Nope. Not ever close. Done correctly--the pope would pick his successor and lay hands on him before he died...

One of those rare times I agree with you.

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), September 24, 2004.


I went ahead and moved "key" discussion HERE.

http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=00COly

...........................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), September 24, 2004.


"They don't even practice the real way in which one succeeds the other--with the laying on of hands. Nope. Not ever close. Done correctly--the pope would pick his successor and lay hands on him before he died..."

Ummm ... how? Popes don't know when they are going to die any more than other people do. Maybe the newly appointed Pope should choose his successor that same day and lay hands on him, just in case he died that night? In fact, all ordained offices in the Catholic Church - deacon, priest, bishop, Pope, are conveyed by the laying on of hands under the authority of the Church. But it is the responsibility of the Church under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, not just of the Pope, to discern Christ's will for the next successor of Peter, just as the early Church under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, appointed Linus after the death of Peter.

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), September 25, 2004.


Linus is the first name to appear on the Catholic list of popes. Peter's name does not appear. Isn't that funny? Nothing mentioned in the Bible about Linus either.....funnier still.

-- ("faith01@myway.com"), September 25, 2004.

Actually, Faith, Linus is in the Bible.

2 Timothy 4 (KJV)
21 Do thy diligence to come before winter. Eubulus greeteth thee, and Pudens, and Linus, and Claudia, and all the brethren.
22 The Lord Jesus Christ be with thy spirit. Grace be with you. Amen.

2 Timothy was written by Paul, who was in Rome (1:17).

-- Emily ("jesusfollower7@yahoo.com), September 25, 2004.


I meant his succession Emily---where in the Bible do we see Peter's supposed headship passed on to Linus??

As I pointed out elsewhere--Peter and the apostles are quite unaware of Peter's supposed authority.

The apostles do not treat Peter as a pope--not even close.

-- ("faith01@myway.com"), September 26, 2004.


Faith, this is your own opinion and biased reading of the text. You do not wish to see that Peter was Pope, so you will not see it.

Where in the Bible does it say that everything must be written in the Bible (hint: it doesn't). In fact, God gives that authority to the Church (1 Tim. 3:15). I think it is entirely possible that all or at least most of the Bible was written during Peter's lifetime. This may exclude Revelation (by scholars who attach a later date to it), but that is hardly relevant since John was exiled alone on an island and had no need to mention Pope Linus, since he did not have contact with him.

-- Emily ("jesusfollower7@yahoo.com), September 26, 2004.


No Emily--your reading is the biased reading. You start with the doctrine of the papacy already in your head.

A true reading of the Scriptures does not reveal and such seat of authority to one person....

Only Christ is the head--and we are His church., His Body.

This is not about the institutionalization of a religion.

Jesus said it Himself. His kingdom is not of this world. He said that his servants will not fight with the sword etc...

And so we can see that the Roman Catholic religion could not possible be Christ's Body or headquarters. Though I do believe that true believers can be caught up in it...as in any Christain religion.

-- ("faith01@myway.com"), September 26, 2004.


Faith says:

"No Emily--your reading is the biased reading. You start with the doctrine of the papacy already in your head."

And you faith, start off with the idea that there couldn't be a pope. It seems that you use the scriptures the way a drunk uses a lamppost, for support rather than illumination.

-- James (stinkcat_14@hotmail.com), September 26, 2004.


As I have shown--the Scriptures reveal that even Peter didn't know that he was some supposed higher authority over the whole church.

Clearly in those days--every local church was its own rule and guide.

No one church ruled over another.....and peter considers himself a fellow servant.

There is no mention of a pope--and you have to surmise it out of questionable Scripture--one verse..Matt 16:19--which can be shown to mean something else.

-- ("faith01@myway.com"), September 26, 2004.


Faith, I am converting because I see the Truth of Catholic teaching as outlined in Scripture. At first in my process, I tried to find some loophole, not wanting the Catholic Church to be true. What I found was that I had misunderstood Catholic beliefs. I found them glaring out at me from Scripture and I could no longer deny it. My reading of Scripture (as a Protestant, mind you) is what led me to the Catholic faith!

This argument does not work with me because I was not raised Catholic, so I would have had no reason to prove Catholic beliefs to be true. Why as a Protestant would I want to prove Catholic beliefs like the Papacy? Rather it was the truth of them as outlined in Scripture that got me to change my mind. During my conversion process there has been considerable pressure from one of my family members for me to NOT convert. So you see I would have good reason to want to deny it, but when God shows me the Truth, I can't help but follow.

Now I thank God every day for bringing me to the Catholic Church. It is the best blessing I have ever been given and I am "ecstatic to be Catholic" (as someone over at Catholic Answers' forums likes to say). God has taught me so much, and I have never been closer to Him than I am now. I wouldn't want it any other way :)

-- Emily ("jesusfollower7@yahoo.com), September 26, 2004.


P.S. Faith, I admit that I am biased in some ways, just like everyone is. Please don't think that I'm denying that. But it was this very issue that caused me to question Protestantism! Everyone has a biased perspective, so how do I know that my own is true? For the Catholic, it is because we trust Jesus, who instituted a Church against which He promised that the gates of hell would not prevail. This is why I am so grateful to Him and ecstatic to be Catholic. It is no longer about my opinion or how I see things, which is a huge burden to carry. It is *all* about trusting Jesus to keep His promise.

-- Emily ("jesusfollower7@yahoo.com), September 26, 2004.

Emily...

My story is just the opposite--I did want to protect and prove that my Catholic upbringing was true. But in the face of the truth revealed to me in the Scriptures--I could not ignore the mounting evidence against my religion.

Jesus did not establish an earthly relgious institute called the Catholic Church. He established His Body of believers on the earth--a universal Body of believers. We are a spiritual reality.

This church cannot be divided because it is not earthbound. All religions are divided and have engaged in warfare with the sword. None can be His Church.

The Catholic Church in particular--leads people to faith in Mary--not Jesus.

The Scriptures support the idea that the early churches were local and that there was no hierarchy over all of the churhes. If the papacy is a falsr seat--Emily--then the Roman Catholic Church collapses.....

-- ("faith01@myway.com"), September 26, 2004.


Faith-

Are you confusing religion with denomination? You keep using "religion" in your posts, but I'm thinking that you really mean "denomination".

.......................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), September 26, 2004.


Faith wrote:

"The Scriptures support the idea that the early churches were local and that there was no hierarchy over all of the churhes. If the papacy is a falsr seat--Emily--then the Roman Catholic Church collapses..... "

Uh, the Scriptures do support the need for the early church to become one solidified "Church". There were too many "loose ends" in doctrines and theologies back then. Why in the world do you think St. Paul was doing what he was doing? But, the catholic concept was destroyed by Luther and the chain reaction that followed.

But, Faith please explain why the Catholic Church is still going strong? (Without the use of the words--"evil", "Satan", or any "Hislopian" termonologies.)

....................... ............

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), September 26, 2004.


Faith says:

"The Catholic Church in particular--leads people to faith in Mary--not Jesus."

Sorry Faith, the Catholic Church doesn't teach this. I would suggest you read the Catechism of the Catholic Church to learn what we believe about Mary.

-- James (stinkcat_14@hotmail.com), September 26, 2004.


Anyone who is led to Mary hears her words as recorded in Scripture - "do whatever He tells you". That is the purpose of Mary - to lead people to her Son. Therefore being led to Mary necessarily means being led to Jesus through her. Many people I know (and many people you know) were led to Christ through other people; yet none of those people were ever addressed by God Himslf as "blessed among women". If ordinary sinners can lead others to Christ, then surely the holiest human being who ever lived, other than the Savior Himself, can do so as well.

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), September 26, 2004.

Faith,

Does your current understanding of what Catholic teaching is come from your time as a Catholic or afterwards? I ask this because some of the things you present as Catholic teaching are contrary to what Catholic teaching actually is. Your statement about leading people to faith in Mary (instead of Jesus) and past discussions regarding the Mass are examples. I am wondering if what you learned while you were a Catholic was what the Church actually taught.

I can personally vouch for having a poor understanding of what Church teaching was. In some cases CCD teachers taught me what they wanted Church teaching to be and not what it actually was. Sometimes they watered it down to make it more palatable. I was mostly given "milk" to drink and not "meat" (1 Cor 3:2). Part of the problem was me. I always had other things I thought were more important.

It took more than a small effort on my part to find out what Catholicism really teaches.

-- Andy S ("ask3332004@yahoo.com"), September 26, 2004.


The problem Paul--is that Mary is not here to do this. Dead people cannot lead you to Christ. Those apparitions of Mary cannot be her.

God gave His Son and He issued His Word to lead us to Him.

-- ("faith01@myway.com"), September 26, 2004.


ST. Paul is dead, yet we follow what he left behind--Epistles.

You have to remember that the Church does not necessarily say the those sightings are real. We do believe that the Apostles saw Elijah and Moses, who were dead, and willing to build tabernacles/tents for them. We remember that Abraham spoke with the rich man while the great gulf stood between them and other dead guy Lazarus. So, you are saying that Mary sightings are a hoax, Faith?

....................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), September 26, 2004.


rod--come on..

Paul is an inspired author---writing to us God's Word...

Why doesn't Paul ever appear in apparitions? And if he supposedly did- -and he said things that contradicted his letters---would you believe it?

Comparing visitations, dreams and visions that are all a part of god's revelation as written in His Scriptures--with things that happen after the revelation and Scriptures are finished is ridiculous rod.

Those apparition contradict God's Word and are therefor--FALSE.

I know I wouldn't. I would see that it was a deception....

-- ("faith01@myway.com"), September 26, 2004.


Then, how do you understand the significance in The Apocaplypse/Revelations? Even you have made reference to the woman with the stars underfoot.

.........................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), September 26, 2004.


Faith says:

"Those apparition contradict God's Word and are therefor--FALSE."

The church doesn't approve apparitions that contradict God's word. Actually, the church doesn't approve any apparition, it just declares that some of them contain nothing that goes against the teaching of the church, which of course would include scripture.

-- James (stinkcat_14@hotmail.com), September 26, 2004.


James--

Even the apparition at Fatima goes against God's Word.

For example--we know that God's plan for peace is Jesus Christ. He is the Prince of Peace--and He is coming again to conquere evil and establish His Kingdom. Not until then will there be peace.

There is nothing in the Scriptures that allows for Mary's peace plan here on earth. The Bible is pretty clear that that ain't happening.

We can have peace of mind in Christ and all that He promises...

We know that there will not be peace until Christ returns. Yet Mary of Fatima has said otherwise....

The only peace on earth that the Bible talks about is a false peace that occurs when Israel signs a peace treaty with the antichrist. But we know that that only lasts for three and one half years. And we know it is a false set up.

-- ("faith01@myway.com"), September 26, 2004.


Faith says:

"We know that there will not be peace until Christ returns. Yet Mary of Fatima has said otherwise...."

Did Mary at Fatima say that we will have peace before Christ returns?

-- James (stinkcat_14@hotmail.com), September 26, 2004.


What Mary at Fatima did was promise peace to the world through her.

"Say the rosary every day to obtain peace for the world....pray, pray a great deal, and make sacrifices for sinners, for many souls go to hell because they have no one to make sacrifices for them....

God wishes to establish in the world the devotion to MY IMMACULATE HEART. If people do what I tell you, souls will be saved and there will be peace."

Do souls really go to hell because they have no one to make sacrifices for them? Christ already made the only saving sacrifice.

Devotion to Mary's supposed IMMACULATE HEART--substitutes for devotion to God and Christ....and obedience to "Our Lady" apparently brings peace.

All of this is a denial to the sufficiency of Christ's finished work on the cross! It is all extra-biblical teaching--coming not from God--but the deceiver of this world.

-- ("faith01@myway.com"), September 27, 2004.


I think faith makes a good point, Paul M.

Mary like in Fatima and in other appearance, she draws attention to herself instead of her Son Jesus.

Shouldn't the mssage say: My son Jesus wants this....done. Turn to him and he will forgive your sins,...turn to him and he will...

But she never does this.

Even I when I spoke to Jesus did Jesus ever mention her mom in the same sentence.

And trust me, I asked about his mother many times. No answer yet.

The Christian Yahwist

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), September 27, 2004.


Faith says:

"Do souls really go to hell because they have no one to make sacrifices for them?"

Do you support missionaries Faith? Unless you are independently wealthy, giving to a missionary would be a sacrifice. i.e. to give to a missionary you must give something else up. Does your giving to a missionary negate the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross? Some people are oppressed by evil spirits. Jesus said some demons can only come out of a person by prayer and fasting. Fasting is a sacrifice.

-- James (stinkcat_14@hotmail.com), September 27, 2004.


People go to hell--according to Scripture--not because there was no sacrifice made for them [Jesus paid with His life].., but because people rejected that gift....Him.

See how subtle the deception is? This apparition has changed God gift of salvation by faith in His Son--into some kind of merit earning thing. No people like you and I can say--oh yeah! That soul is in heaven because of me. I worked so hard for that money I gave to the missionaries....blagh!!

-- ("faith01@myway.com"), September 27, 2004.


Faith,

How can people reject Jesus who never heard of him?

-- James (stinkcat_14@hotmail.com), September 27, 2004.


There is no excuse--according to the Bible--we all know deep in our conscience that God is true.

Even Abraham who never really heard of jesus--still had faith and believed God.

Nothing predates God and His Word to us--which has been carried since the time of Adam.

-- ("faith01@myway.com"), September 27, 2004.


Then I guess missionaries are irrelevant. good news for me, since I can just hang out and wait for Jesus to come again like the Thesselonians.

-- James (stinkcat_14@hotmail.com), September 27, 2004.

Faith-"There is no excuse--according to the Bible--we all know deep in our conscience that God is true. "

rod-...until we start to tell what we think those truths are, then everything gets real foggy and contradictory. I think it would be safe to say that it is our conscience that allows us to acceptance, but we may not know for sure what is the truth. We merely surrender to what we believe is the truth. We call that "faith".

............................

-- rod (elreyod@yahoo.com), September 27, 2004.


Jesus commands us to preach His Word---that is how the soul is convicted--by the gospel of truth.

That is how the soul has been convicted since the begining....

Not because we sacrifice anything--but because Jesus did.

-- ("faith01@myway.com"), September 27, 2004.


rod--the only thing that needs to be told is that jesus is that promised Messiah--that he gave His life for us--and He is risen.

The rest is up to God....

-- ("faith01@myway.com"), September 27, 2004.


Faith says:

"Jesus commands us to preach His Word",

preaching his word involves no sacrifice? Many of the things we do as Christians involve sacrifice and we cannot say that they have no effect on someone else's decision to follow Jesus. It doesn't however mean that we negate Jesus's sacrifice on the cross. Remember faith without works is dead and these works often involve sacrifice.

-- James (stinkcat_14@hotmail.com), September 27, 2004.


I am not saying that following Christ doesn't entail some sacrifice. We essentially give up our lives. And then we live for Christ.

But it is not *my* sacrifices or sufferings that atone for anyone's soul. People don't go to hell because there is no one sacrificing or suffering for them. There are plenty of people evangelizing in the world and the Word has gone out to all four corners of the earth. But our sufferings and sacrifices don't atone for them anyway--only Christ's does.

People will go to hell because they weren't found in Christ. And it isn't the evangelical's fault if a person refuses to accept the gospel or Jesus Christ as their Savior....

The apparition's message is counter-constructive and misleading....

-- ("faith01@myway.com"), September 27, 2004.


Faith says:

"And it isn't the evangelical's fault if a person refuses to accept the gospel or Jesus Christ as their Savior...."

Could our own sinfulness stand in the way of someone else coming to faith in Jesus Christ? I would be hesitent to say someone not coming to faith is not our fault, when perhaps we must share part of the blame. For example, people will say Christians are hypocritical, and often we are. If we were sinless I would agree that it's not our fault if someone else doesn't come to faith. But we are sinful creatures.

-- James (stinkcat_14@hotmail.com), September 27, 2004.


Faith says:

"There are plenty of people evangelizing in the world and the Word has gone out to all four corners of the earth. But our sufferings and sacrifices don't atone for them anyway--only Christ's does."

In my opinion, there are not enough people evangelizing the world, because most people do not want to make the sacrifice to become a missionary. We need more missionaries in my opinion, you are content with the number we have. Mary never said our suffering and sacrifices atone for them, did she? But our sufferings and sacrifices can help people realize that Jesus died on the cross for them.

-- James (stinkcat_14@hotmail.com), September 27, 2004.


Our sufferings and sacrifices have value if we suffer in union with Christ as members of His body.

After reminding the Collossians how Christ had suffered and died to make them holy (if they remain steadfast in the faith), Paul tells them that he rejoices in his own suffereings for the church. He explains that he is "filling up what is lacking in Christ's afflictions for the sake of his body, that is, the church".

-- Andy S ("ask3332004@yahoo.com"), September 28, 2004.


Most Christians would agree that Paul wasn't saying that Christ's death wasn't enough for our redemption. But through Paul's suffering, the fruits of that redemption are made real for the church.

How many of us have received numerous blessings through Paul's cooperation with God's grace and the sufferings Paul endured for our sake, as well as for Christ so many centuries ago?

-- Andy S ("ask3332004@yahoo.com"), September 28, 2004.


Well I am sorry--but I just don't think that this is what the apparition at fatima meant.

I agree that we are to suffer for Christ. But I also believe that we are the planters--we spread the seeds. But it is God who causes these seeds to grow and who brings us to faith through His Son.

The apparition give us a message that is subtly deceptive. She says that we have to make reparation to her Immaculate Heart for sins committed againt her. Yet the Scriptures tell us that sin is against God alone!

Sin is against God, not against any of His creatures. Teaching that reparation must be made to Mary because of sin commited against her-- elevates Mary into God's place. It seems right and nice to lift the Mother of Jesus up. But that's just the subtle deception I am talking about. This elevation not only fits John's vision in Revelation--but also blends paganism with Christianity--as John also foretold...

-- ("faith01@myway.com"), September 28, 2004.


1 corinthians 8:12

When you sin against your brothers in this way and wound their weak conscience, you sin against Christ.

So sin is not just against God, but against others as well.

-- James (stinkcat_14@hotmail.com), September 28, 2004.


The Roman Soldier who slapped the Christian was offered the other cheek. I often wonder about what has actually happened to the soldier. If the soldier slaps again, he is actually being offered the chance to sin again by the turning of the cheek. Wisely, the Roman Soldier walks away.

...........

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), September 28, 2004.


David said:

"Against thee, thee only, have I sinned." Psalm 51:4

All sin is against God--and it is God's forgiveness we need unto salvation.

-- ('Faith01@myway.com"), September 28, 2004.


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