Introduction In Part One of this series we saw that there are literally dozens of passages in the New Testament which tell us that we can receive salvation, eternal life, forgiveness of sins, justification, and righteousness through faith in Jesus. Baptism is not mentioned in any of those passages. The amount of Scriptural testimony which shows that we are saved through faith far outweighs the few passages which appear to link baptism with salvation. We also saw examples of numerous people who received salvation before they were baptized in water, which demonstrates that baptism is not necessary for salvation.

In this article we will look at Mark 16:16 and Acts 2:38, two of the main passages which some people use as evidence that baptism is a requirement for salvation.

Mark 16:16 Notice that Mark 16:16 seems to add baptism as a requirement for salvation:

"Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned." (Mark 16:16) Some people use this passage (and several others) as proof of the view that baptism is a requirement for receiving salvation and eternal life. However, it turns out that this view creates a contradiction in Scripture. To see why, notice first of all that if we are saved then we have eternal life, and that if we have eternal life then we are saved. For example, John 3:36 says that those who believe in Jesus have eternal life, but those who reject Jesus are still under God's wrath:

"Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him." (John 3:36) Therefore, if we have eternal life then we are no longer under God's wrath (which implies that our sins are forgiven). To make this same point a different way, consider that Jesus said that those who do not believe in Him will die in their sins (which implies that God's wrath will remain on them):

"I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am the one I claim to be, you will indeed die in your sins." (John 8:24) The point here is that if we have eternal life then we are saved, and that if we are saved then we have eternal life. With that in mind, let's compare Mark 16:16a with another verse:

"Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life" (John 3:36a) "Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved" (Mark 16:16a)

Now, here's the problem. If Mark 16:16 (above) says that baptism is a requirement for receiving salvation and eternal life, as some people believe, then John 3:36 (above) cannot be true. Take a close look at those two verses and think about what they are saying, keeping in mind that only those who are saved will have eternal life in Christ. To help us see the contradiction, here's an example which will make it clearer. There is a website for the Mensa organization which makes the following statement:

"The only requirement for joining is that an individual's IQ falls within the top two per cent of the population." In order to examine this rule for membership in Mensa, it is helpful to write it as a conditional statement:

IF a person's IQ falls within the top two per cent of the population THEN the person is allowed to join Mensa We can see from this rule that there is one (and only one) condition which is a requirement for membership in Mensa. Now, if the Mensa organization decides to add a new requirement for membership (such as a rule that new applicants must have a referral from an existing member) then the above statement will no longer be true. The new conditional statement of the requirements for membership would be:

IF a person's IQ falls within the top two per cent of the population AND the person has a referral from an existing member THEN the person is allowed to join Mensa Notice that this new rule and the original rule cannot both be true at the same time. In the same way, if baptism is a requirement for salvation then John 3:36 (above) and Mark 16:16 (above) cannot both be true at the same time. To understand why, let's look at the conditional thoughts in these two verses:

IF a person believes THEN the person has eternal life (from John 3:36) IF a person believes AND the person is baptized THEN the person will be saved (from Mark 16:16)

Notice that if Mark 16:16 says that both belief and baptism are requirements for salvation and eternal life (as some people believe), then John 3:36 cannot be true, just as the two rules for membership in Mensa cannot both be true at the same time. So if we use Mark 16:16 to say that baptism is necessary for salvation then we are creating a contradiction in Scripture. Plus, if we say that baptism is a requirement for salvation then we are contradicting the dozens of Scripture passages that we saw in Part One which say that we can receive salvation, forgiveness of sins, eternal life, justification, and righteousness through faith alone. Baptism is not mentioned in any of those dozens of New Testament passages. Furthermore, we would be contradicting the Scripture passages that we saw in Part One which describe numerous people receiving salvation before they were baptized.

If we use Mark 16:16 (above) to claim that baptism is necessary for salvation then we are making a common error which is known as the Negative Inference Fallacy. This fallacy can be stated as follows:

"If a statement is true, we cannot assume that the negation (or opposite) of that statement is true." To illustrate the Negative Inference Fallacy, consider this conditional statement:

IF a person lives in Texas THEN the person lives on earth According to the Negative Inference Fallacy, if the above statement is true then we cannot assume that the negation (or opposite) of that statement is true. To see why, here is the negation of that statement:

IF a person does not live in Texas THEN the person does not live on earth It is easy to see that this is not a true statement. Again, if a statement is true, this does not automatically mean that the negation of that statement is true. The above example only has one condition, so now let's look at an example of the Negative Inference Fallacy using two conditions:

IF a person lives in Texas AND the person is male THEN the person lives on earth This is a true statement which tells us something about people in Texas who are male, but notice that it does not address females (non-males) at all. We cannot assume anything about females from this statement. What the Negative Inference Fallacy tells us is that even though we can phrase the negation (or opposite) of the above statement in three different ways, we cannot assume that any of these negations will be true. Here are the three negations of the above statement:

IF a person does not live in Texas AND the person is male THEN the person does not live on earth

IF a person lives in Texas AND the person is not male THEN the person does not live on earth

IF a person does not live in Texas AND the person is not male THEN the person does not live on earth Notice that all three of these negations are false statements. What this demonstrates is that if a statement is true, we cannot assume that a negative inference (a negation) from that statement is also true.

Now let's examine the first half of Mark 16:16 in light of the Negative Inference Fallacy:

"Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved" (Mark 16:16a) Based on this verse we can make the following conditional statement:

IF a person believes AND the person has been baptized THEN the person will be saved This is a true statement which tells us something about believers who have been baptized, but notice that it says nothing about believers who have not been baptized (compare this with the example of people in Texas who are male, which says nothing at all about people in Texas who are not male). As in the previous example, we can phrase the negation of the above statement in three different ways, but we cannot assume from Mark 16:16 that any of these negations are true. Here are the three negations of the above statement:

IF a person does not believe AND the person has been baptized THEN the person will not be saved

IF a person believes AND the person has not been baptized THEN the person will not be saved

IF a person does not believe AND the person has not been baptized THEN the person will not be saved As the Negative Inference Fallacy shows, we cannot assume that any one of the above statements is true (unless we have more information, as we'll see in a moment). To help us understand this better, let's compare Mark 16:16a with the example of people in Texas who are male:

"Whoever lives in Texas and is male lives on earth" "Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved" (Mark 16:16a)

Both of these statements are true. Notice that the first statement tells us nothing about people in Texas who are not males, and in the same way, Mark 16:16a tells us nothing about believers who have not been baptized. If we try to make an assumption about females in Texas or about unbaptized believers based on the above statements then we are making an error in our thinking:

"Whoever lives in Texas and is not male does not live on earth" "Whoever believes and is not baptized will not be saved" (negation of Mark 16:16a)

This is the error that some people have made. They have assumed that since Mark 16:16a says that baptized believers will be saved, this must mean that unbaptized believers will not be saved. By making this assumption, they have fallen victim to the Negative Inference Fallacy.

The important thing to understand is that just because Mark 16:16a contains two conditions relating to salvation, this does not mean that both conditions are requirements for being saved. To help make this clearer, let's use three conditions instead of only two conditions. For example, if I believe in Jesus and I have received a Christian baptism and I live in Texas, I am saved, right? Now we have three conditions in a statement about salvation, and everyone who meets these three conditions is saved. However, these three conditions are obviously not all requirements for salvation because we know that people who believe in Jesus and have received a Christian baptism and live in Australia are saved as well. So just because we have three conditions in a statement about salvation, this doesn't mean that they are all requirements for being saved. Now, if we can find a passage in the New Testament which says something like, "whoever does not live in Texas is condemned," then we would know for certain that living in Texas is a requirement for salvation. This point is easy to understand when we're talking about a condition such as living in Texas, but the same point applies to the other two conditions as well (belief and baptism). In other words, if we can find any passages in the New Testament which are direct negations of these two conditions (belief and baptism) then we would know for certain that belief and baptism are requirements for receiving salvation. It is easy to demonstrate that belief is a requirement for salvation because Jesus specifically gave us the negation of belief:

"Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned." (Mark 16:16) We can see that Jesus has given us both the positive condition of belief ("Whoever believes...") and the negative condition of belief ("whoever does not believe will be condemned"). Therefore, we can say with absolute certainty that belief is a requirement for salvation. Now, notice in Mark 16:16 (above) that Jesus has given us the positive condition of baptism ("Whoever...is baptized..."), but nowhere does the New Testament ever give us the negative condition of baptism (such as, "whoever is not baptized will be condemned"). Therefore, we cannot say that baptism is a requirement for salvation. If we claim that baptism is necessary for salvation based on Mark 16:16 then we are making the error which is known as the Negative Inference Fallacy.

Acts 2:38 Now that we understand about the Negative Inference Fallacy as it relates to Mark 16:16, we can see how the same principle applies to Acts 2:38:

Mark 16:16a: "Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved" Acts 2:38: "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins."

Both of these verses are favorites among those who believe that baptism is necessary for salvation, but the Negative Inference Fallacy demonstrates the error that they are making. Both of these verses are true, but we have seen that we cannot assume that the negations (or opposites) of these verses are true. In the case of Acts 2:38 (above), the basic conditional thought can be expressed as:

IF a person repents AND the person is baptized THEN the person's sins will be forgiven Just as in Mark 16:16a, there are two conditions here (repentance and baptism in this case). As the Negative Inference Fallacy shows, we cannot take the above true statement and assume that the negation (or opposite) must also be true. In other words, it is erroneous to conclude from Acts 2:38 (above) that we are not saved unless we both repent and receive baptism. That would be a false conclusion. There are numerous Scripture passages which say that if we believe in Jesus then we will be saved (such as John 3:36, as we saw above), and therefore belief is a "condition" which relates to a person's salvation. But there are also Scripture passages which explicitly say that if we do not believe then we will not be saved, such as Mark 16:16 ("whoever does not believe will be condemned"). Since the New Testament specifically gives us the negation of belief, we can therefore state with absolute certainty that belief is a requirement for salvation. This is not true of baptism, however. There are no passages in the New Testament which give us the negation of baptism (such as, "whoever is not baptized will be condemned"), and therefore we have no valid basis for claiming that baptism is a requirement for salvation.

In Acts 2:38, the apostle Peter did not say that unbaptized believers can't receive forgiveness of sins, and therefore Acts 2:38 does not contradict other statements that Peter made concerning the forgiveness of sins:

"Repent, then, and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped out, that times of refreshing may come from the Lord" (Acts 3:19) "All the prophets testify about him that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name." (Acts 10:43)

In these statements, the apostle Peter said that everyone who has a repentant, believing heart will receive forgiveness of sins. He did not list baptism as a requirement for receiving forgiveness here, and these verses harmonize well with Acts 2:38 (above) because we cannot assume that Acts 2:38 is making baptism a requirement for receiving forgiveness.

The New Testament specifically says that unbelievers are condemned (see for example Revelation 21:8), and therefore belief is a requirement for salvation. However, the New Testament never says that "the unbaptized" are condemned. The New Testament sometimes refers to Christians as "the believers" (as in 1 Timothy 4:12), and it sometimes refers to the unsaved as "unbelievers" (as in Revelation 21:8), but the New Testament never refers to Christians as "the baptized," and it never refers to the unsaved as "the unbaptized." Baptism is commanded in Scripture, which means that it is an important act of obedience, but it is not a requirement for receiving salvation.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), October 26, 2003

Answers

by Dave Root

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), October 26, 2003.

Many People Believe Lies about Baptism

Jesus is "the way, the truth, and the life" (John 14:6). He tells His followers: "If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed. And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free" (John 8:31,32).

The devil is a liar and the father of lies (John 3:44). He lied to Eve in the garden (Genesis 3:4), and he fills the world with lies today. Jesus brought grace and truth (John 1:17).

The devil brings lies and destruction. Jesus said: "The thief does not come except to steal, and to kill, and to destroy. I have come that they may have life, and that they may have it more abundantly" (John 10:10).

So, the choice is ours. Will we believe the truth of the Lord, or the lies of the devil?

We who love the truth, must find the truth among all the lies.

People believe the devil's lies and are lost because they do not love the truth (2 Thessalonians 2:10-12). Paul told Timothy: "Preach the word! Be ready in season and out of season. Convince, rebuke, exhort, with all longsuffering and teaching. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables" (2 Timothy 4:2-4).

Some of the devil's most destructive lies relate to baptism. Millions of pious people will be lost because they believed the devil's lies about baptism.

How can we know they are lies? By comparing them with the word of God. Jesus said: "If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed" (John 8:31). The bright light of God's word can expose the devil's dark lies about baptism.

Lie number one:

Infant baptism is valid.

Because of this lie, many people think they have been baptized because someone else decided to have them christened when they were babies. What happened to them, however, bears no resemblance to the baptism we read about in the New Testament.

Jesus said: "He who believes and is baptized will be saved" (Mark 16:16). When the Ethiopian asked Philip, "See, here is water. What hinders me from being baptized?" Philip said, "If you believe with all your heart, you may" (Acts 8:36,37). Baptism must be based on personal faith. A baby is not yet able to believe or to make a personal decision to follow Christ.

Peter said: "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins" (Acts 2:38). A baby cannot repent. He has committed no sins of which he needs to repent. Nor can he be baptized for the remission of sins, since he has committed no sins.

If you have only been christened as a baby, you have been deceived. You have not been baptized at all.

Lie number two:

Sprinkling and pouring are valid forms of baptism.

The word "baptism" is a transliteration of a Greek word meaning "immersion". The context also makes this clear. "Now John also was baptizing in Aenon near Salim, because there was much water there" (John 3:23). Baptism requires much water. Paul writes: "Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death" (Romans 6:4). We are "buried with Him in baptism" (Colossians 2:12). Baptism is an immersion, a burial in water.

If you have never been immersed, you have been deceived. You have not experienced Christian baptism at all.

Lie number three:

Baptism is not for the forgiveness of sins.

How do we know this is a lie? Because we are commanded to be baptized for the remission of sins. Listen to what happened on the Day of Pentecost. "Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, 'Men and brethren, what shall we do?' Then Peter said to them, 'Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit'" (Acts 2:37,38). Many people refuse to obey this simple command because they have believed another lie, namely, that one is saved by faith only. How do I know this is a lie? Again, because the Bible says exactly the opposite! "You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only" (James 2:24). Who shall we believe, God or man? God says we are not saved by faith only. Evangelicals say we are saved by faith only. And because they have been deceived on this point, they also refuse to obey the command of Peter: "Be baptized ... for the remission of sins." As a consequence, Evangelical baptism, although immersion, is invalid because it is not done for the commanded purpose. It is an ineffectual ritual.

Even if you have been immersed, if you were not baptized for the remission of sins, you did not obey the command Peter gave on the Day of Pentecost. You have been deceived. You have believed a lie. You have not been baptized at all.

Lie number four:

Baptism does not wash away sins.

How do we know this is a lie? Because the Bible says exactly the opposite! Ananias told the penitent Paul, who had been praying and fasting for three days: "And now why are you waiting? Arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord" (Acts 22:16).

If you were deceived by the doctrine of salvation by faith only, thinking that you were already saved before baptism, you were not baptized to wash away your sins! What you experienced, although it was immersion, was not the same baptism Paul experienced. You have been deceived. You have not been baptized at all.

Lie number five:

One does not have to be baptized to be saved.

How do we know this is a lie? Because Jesus said: "He who believes and is baptized will be saved" (Mark 16:16), and Peter wrote: "There is also an antitype which now saves us, namely baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ" (1 Peter 3:21). Baptism saves because of its relation to the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ. It is not a cleansing of the body, it is a cleansing of the soul, a cleansing of the conscience by the power of Christ's resurrection. "Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection" (Romans 6:3-5).

Baptism is essential for salvation because God has ordained that our union with the death, burial and resurrection of Christ is accomplished through baptism.

When someone asserts that salvation is possible through faith in Christ without baptism, he is lying because he thereby proves that he does not believe Christ. Jesus said: "He who believes and is baptized will be saved," but he does not believe what Jesus said.

If you were immersed thinking you were saved before baptism, or that baptism was not necessary for salvation, you have not experienced the baptism we read about in the Bible. You have been deceived.

Lie number six:

The rebirth is separate from baptism. Water baptism is not essential.

We know this is a lie because Paul wrote that there is "one Lord, one faith, one baptism" (Ephesians 4:5), and because Jesus told Nicodemus: "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God" (John 3:5). Both the water and the Spirit are involved in the one baptism commanded by Christ. The rebirth is realized by the Spirit of God when a penitent believer is immersed into the death, burial and resurrection of Christ. From the watery grave of baptism, he rises to walk in newness of life.

If you think you were baptized by the Spirit, separate from, or without, baptism in water, you have dismembered the one baptism. You have been deceived. What you experienced was not the baptism Christ commanded.

What is true baptism?

If we simply preach and obey what Jesus and His apostles said about baptism, our baptism will be valid.

There is "one baptism" (Ephesians 4:4). "He who believes and is baptized will be saved" (Mark 16:16). "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins" (Acts 2:38). "And now why are you waiting? Arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord" (Acts 22:16).

Roy Davison

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), October 26, 2003.

THE ROCK ~ THE 2000 YEAR OLD MOST HOLY CATHOLIC CHURCH SAYS :

By Baptism Jesus gives us New Life, the Divine Life, and makes us Adopted Children of God. He welcomes us into a Life of Intimacy with the Three Persons of the Blessed Trinity; Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. ~ See what Love the Father has bestowed on us that we may be called the Children of God. Yet so we are. 1 John 3:1

Along with the Divine Life Christ gives us Powers which enable us to act as Children of God and Grow in the Divine Life. Among these Powers are Faith, Hope, and Love. ~ Father Killgallon

-- james (elgreco1541@hotmail.com), October 27, 2003.

There is much confusion about baptism. Many do not believe a person must be baptized to be saved from his sins. Others say baptism is necessary for salvation. Some say sprinkling or pouring are acceptable forms of baptism. Others say only immersion in water is acceptable. There is only one way to settle the confusion about baptism. We must go to the New Testament, which is the law for all men today. What does the Bible tell us about baptism? Its teaching is clear on this subject. Let us notice the five "B's" of Bible baptism.

First, baptism is a BURIAL. Notice the Apostle Paul's statement in Romans 6:3,4. "Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life." Paul states clearly that baptism is a burial. To bury something is to cover it completely. Sprinkling or pouring will not substitute for the burial which baptism demands. In fact, the word "baptism" itself means "to immerse, dip, plunge." Bible baptism is a burial.

Second, baptism is for BELIEVERS. Bible baptism is for those who can show they believe in Jesus, the Son of God. In Mark 16:16, Jesus said, "He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned." No where in the New Testament will one find a person baptized who was not able to express his belief in Christ. In Acts 8:12 we read, "But when they believed Philip as he preached the things concerning the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, both men and women were baptized." Notice that "both men and women" were baptized, not little children. Why? Because baptism is for believers, not babies. Babies are born innocent. They are not guilty of the sins of their parents, as some teach (Ezekiel 18:20). Jesus used little children as examples of humility, and said we must become like them to enter the kingdom of heaven (Matthew l8:1-5). Would Jesus use sinful children as examples of what we must become to be pleasing to God? Certainly not!

Third, baptism comes BEFORE forgiveness of sins. Jesus made this clear in His statement,"He who believes and is baptized will be saved: but he who does not believe will be condemned." Jesus said belief AND baptism bring salvation. He did not say belief brings salvation, and then one is baptized. One cannot be saved without baptism. In Acts 22:16, Saul of Tarsus, a man who believed in Christ, repented, and confessed Jesus as Lord, still had to be baptized to wash away his sins. There is not a single instance in the New Testament where anyone was said to be saved until he was baptized. Baptism comes BEFORE forgiveness.

Fourth, baptism is the BIRTH of the Christian. It is the beginning of the Christian's life. In John 3:5, Jesus told a man named Nicodemus, "... Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God." To be born of water and the Spirit involves being baptized in water in obedience to the teaching of the Holy Spirit. How does the Spirit teach us? He does so through the Word of God. In the New Testament we learn of the importance of being baptized in water. So it is the Spirit who teaches us to be baptized as we read His Word. This is what the apostle Paul meant in 1 Corinthians 12:13. "For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body--whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free--and have all been made to drink into one Spirit." Paul says all must be baptized into the body of Christ, which is the church (Ephesians 1:22,23). It is by the teaching of the Spirit through the Word that we learn of our need to do this. Then, we must "drink into one Spirit," which means we are to continue to study the Word which the Holy Spirit has given--the New Testament. We must grow in our knowledge of God's Word, and we must remain faithful in the one church (Revelation 2:10).

The final "B" is that Bible baptism is where the BLOOD of Christ is applied to cleanse us from our sins. Can a person be saved from his sins without the blood of Christ? No! But only in baptism is the blood applied from Heaven to take away our sins. The blood of Jesus was shed in His death. The soldier pierced the side of the slain Saviour of the world, and "...immediately blood and water came out" (John 19:34) Then, in Romans 6:3,4, Paul speaks of being buried in the "likeness" of Christ's death through baptism. The blood that was shed in Christ's death is reached only in the likeness of His death --baptism. In Revelation 1:4,5, John says Jesus washed us from our sins in His blood. When does that washing take place? It is the washing of baptism. Remember what Ananias said to Saul of Tarsus: "And now why are you waiting? Arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord." When we look at Acts 22:16 and Revelation 1:4,5, we conclude that in baptism the blood of Jesus is applied to wash away our sins.

We should never forget the five "B's" of baptism. They remind us of what the Bible teaches about this very important subject.

The Bible says baptism is a BURIAL.

It is for BELIEVERS, those who can express their belief in Christ.

It comes BEFORE forgiveness of sins.

It is the BIRTH of the Christian, and it is where the precious BLOOD of Jesus is applied to wash away our sins.

Have you received Bible baptism?

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), October 28, 2003.

THE ROCK ~ THE 2000 YEAR OLD MOST HOLY CATHOLIC CHURCH SAYS :

Christ gives us a share in his priesthood through the baptismal character. It is by means of this sharing in Christ's priesthood that we participate in the Mass, unite our prayers and sacrifice with those of Christ, and obtain the right to receive the other sacraments. ~ Father Weber

-- james (elgreco1541@hotmail.com), October 29, 2003.

The word "sacraments" is another Catholic term that is foreign to the New Testament.

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), October 30, 2003.

So is TRINITY. And so is INCARNATION, and ASCENSION, and BIBLE

-- james (elgreco1541@hotmail.com), October 30, 2003.

SACRED TRUTH :

THE ROCK ~

THE MAGISTERIUM OF THE 2000 YEAR OLD MOST HOLY CATHOLIC CHURCH SAYS :

The Sacraments are efficacious signs of Grace, instituted by Christ and entrusted to The Church, by which Divine Life is dispensed to us. The visible rites by which the Sacraments are celebrated signify and make present the Graces proper to each Sacrament. They bear Fruit in those who receive them with the required dispositions.

-- james (elgreco1541@hotmail.com), October 30, 2003.

Bapism is a rite of passage for those wishing to be saved. It doesn't save you. We still are tested everyday. We can flunk, and be damned.

Examples from Bible: The prophet Balaam (see Exodus). What about Demas, a Christian (See what Paul says of those who abandoned him)

It is like this: in High School in California you need 230 credits to graduate plus pass some proficiency tests( these are us, who have been Christian all of our lives), or pass the high school Exit Exam (those who left, then came back and made it). You fail any of these, you fail. You will not graduate. Same is for your salvation. Baptism is just an entrance, a door to go in. Nothing can guarranty your salvation, only God.

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), October 30, 2003.

Sacraments, Sacred Truth - BALONEY!!!

The Word of God does NOT teach any such NONSENSE. It is interesting that NO Scripture was used to back up the Catholic Claim of such a thing as Sacraments.

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), October 31, 2003.

Sacred Truth can ONLY be found in the Word of God!!!

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), October 31, 2003.

Yes! of course the truth can be found in the Word. The Word is Jesus Christ. But, we must consider the multitude of Bible versions. Some truth may not exist in some versions.

rod..

Sorry, I can scroll my text, but I choose not to. And, I won't start "blinking" any text either.

..

..

...

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), November 01, 2003.

rod,

What I was stating as a FACT was that the Word of God was the ONLY "Sacred Truth" and that there is NO TRUTH outside of the Bible.

Catholics claim that TRUTH exists OUTSIDE of the Bible (i.e. Tradition) please notice that this is an ASSERTION and has NO BASIS IN TRUTH.

Catholics CLAIM that they love the Bible, but they really do NOT. At EVERY OPPORTUNITY, those who claim that the Bible is the ONLY source of TRUTH are RIDICULED and told that they believe in Sola Scriptura. In other words, they do NOT believe what God has PLAINLY stated in His Word.

The Bible says that IT ALONE is ENOUGH to make the man of God COMPLETE and ready for EVERY GOOD WORK therefore NOTHING else is needed nor required.

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), November 01, 2003.

Our Saviour was crucified on the cross. Can anyone tell us what that cross looked like? If we study the Bible for answers, we will not know the form of that cross. There were a variety of forms used, yet Christianity maintains that it was a "Roman" cross, why?

rod..

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), November 01, 2003.

I also notice that you haven't posted anything in this thread, Kevin. Which verse is correct?

rod..

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-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), November 01, 2003.

As long as men keep fiddling around with Bible editing/versions, the truth will conform to diverse theology/doctrine.

rod..

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-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), November 01, 2003.

Well. Rod, the arms were outstretched. That is why one man was on his left, the other on the right.

As to the shape,...

They cut branches of olives or cedar, the common types there.

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), November 01, 2003.

Yes, but was the cross a "T","+","H","I", or a combination of them? The Jevoah Witness think it was a "stake"(I) and not a cross at all.

rod..

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-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), November 01, 2003.

I forgot one other: "X".

rod..

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-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), November 01, 2003.

rod,

I didn't provide an answer in the thread in question because 1. I don't know, 2. It really doesn't matter because the verse in question does NOT have anything to do with salvation. 3. I do not post on every thread.

It also really does NOT matter what the cross looked like either.

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), November 01, 2003.

I knew that you would say that it doesn't matter about what the cross looks like. But, it does matter if the truth matters. The cross has taken on a whole new meaning for many people. It represents Christianity. At one time, the symbol for the Trinity was not a cross, it was three circles intertwined forming one circle in the center. Why don't we use that circles symbol instead? This would eliminate any doubts about which cross is true?

So, generally observing, every church that displays the cross is actually displaying the Roman cross--"t". So, do we perpetuate the truth or a lie? If we are not certain about the facts, then we perpetuate a MYTH, not the truth. So, what other myths are we unaware of unless we study the historical facts about Christ and Christianity?

rod..<

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), November 01, 2003.

rod,

You are mistaken, it is NOT the cross which represents Christianity, it is the RESURRECTION. Without the resurrection, the cross would have NO meaning.

It does NOT matter what the cross looks like as I stated earlier NOR does the Word of God state that it is a requirement to KNOW what the cross looked like in order for one to be saved.

If you knew I would come back with the response that I gave you, whey did you even bother to address the post to me when you already knew what I was going to say???

If someone MUST know what the cross looks like to have faith or to be saved, then you MUST PROVE this from the Word of God.

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), November 02, 2003.

Kevin. I KNOW IT IS THE RESURRECTION. I am saying that the cross has taken on a different meaning. It represents Christianity. The crucifix makes a definate point--THE RESURRECTION. When I ask people I meet why they wear a cross, the first thing they say is that they are a "Christian". As I dig further, they will eventually make a reference to Christ as our Saviour who died on the cross for our sins. And, the resurrection.

Kevin- If you knew I would come back with the response that I gave you, whey did you even bother to address the post to me when you already knew what I was going to say???

rod- To better understand you and to better understand me, that's why.

Kevin- If someone MUST know what the cross looks like to have faith or to be saved, then you MUST PROVE this from the Word of God.

rod- Because people will believe just about anything that sounds good to them, the truth will eventually dissolve into myth. Some people don't believe that the Jews were killed by Hitler--it's a myth. The cross issue is only one example of how some people accept Christianity. This is how some people accept Holy Communion. This is how some people distort or confuse the Gospels. History tends to iron things out and support the truth. We really should make everyt effort to understand the Gospels from all angles, including history. The more knowledge and understanding we have, the more powerful our ministering can be to those who need that kind of convincing, understanding, and faith. <

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), November 02, 2003.

rod,

I disagree with you. There is one source of truth that does NOT change and that is the Word of God.

History has NOTHING to do with the truth. History can be CHANGED (this has happened), FABRICATED (the Catholic Church has made this happen) and is NOT reliable if someone is searching for the TRUTH.

God says that His word is TRUTH (John 17:17) and those who RIGHTLY DIVIDE the TRUTH (2 Timothy 2:15) and UNDERSTAND the TRUTH (Mark 4:12, 20) will be saved.

Faith does NOT come by HISTORY, NOR does it come whether or not one believes that the cross was made of wood or that it was part of a tree that was already there. FAITH comes by "hearing" and "hearing by the Word of God". (Romans 10:17).

That rod is the ONLY way someone can get faith.

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), November 02, 2003.

Kevin, another one of our discussions mentioned Fool and his destiny into hell. I'm extremely tired right now, but I will be showing you how Fool may actually still have his Salvation. I will use Scriptures and only Scriptures to prove that a divorced person can still have Salvation. The books I'll be using are Joshua, Matthew, Mark, and John. Things are not completely lost for Fool, Gem, and Gen. All of this centers around the cross.

rod..

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-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), November 02, 2003.

rod,

I gave you certain instances where the man in question would still be able to be saved on that other thread.

Waiting for your biblical reply.

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), November 03, 2003.

rod,

Please post your reply in the Divorce thread.

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), November 03, 2003.

To be born again is to become a Christian. Right? Yes. If so, then how can one be born again or how does one become a Christian?

Nicodemus, a good and religious man, a Pharisee and a ruler of the Jews, having been convinced that Jesus was sent from God into the world. came to Him by night. Nicodemus wanted to be part of Christ's kingdom and enjoy its blessings. Jesus, knowing this of Nicodemus, told him, "Except a man be born of water and of the spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." (John 3.5). Please read John 3.1-21.

Nicodemus was part of the kingdom of Israel by being born into a Jewish family. He wanted to know how he could be part of Christ's kingdom which was being preached by John the Baptist and the apostles. Jesus' statement of "except a man be born again" is the only way one can enjoy the blessing and be part of the kingdom of God. In other words, to be a Christian and to be in the body of Christ one must be born again.

Jesus used physical birth to illustrate the spiritual birth. In this way the father begets and the mother brings forth the child, so the Holy Spirit begets and one is born again in baptism. "Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures." (James 1.18).

Read 1 Peter 1.22-23. The word of God is the sword of the spirit (Eph. 6.17). This word is what the Holy Spirit uses to produce faith in the human heart. When the word of God is preached, the Spirit by this means begets faith in the sinner's heart and that helps him to submit himself to be born again.

How is one born of the water? To be born of water is done by baptism which is a burial in water (Col. 2.12; Rom. 6.3-5). The purpose of baptism is FOR the remission of sins (Acts 2.38; 22.16). All those who were born again at and after Pentecost were requested to be baptized in order to be saved (Acts 22.16; 10.47-48; 2.36). By baptism the believer is put into the Lord's body (1 Cor. 12.13), which is the church (Col. 1.18,24). When one is put into Christ then he becomes a new creature (2 Cor. 5.17). When you become a new creature, then, you can say you are born again.

So it is necessary for all to be born again. And if one is born again, he is in the Kingdom of God which is the church of Christ. This new birth of water and the spirit occurs when the Holy Spirit begets faith through the word in the human heart and the believer responds by being baptized for the remission of sins.

In this we see that many who claim to be born again (Catholics - those in Denominations) are NOT born again.

You need to be born again but before then you must obey Christ - John 3.16, Mk. 16.15-16, 1 Cor. 15.1-4; Believe on Him - John 8.24, Heb. 11.6; Repent - Acts 2.38, Lk. 13.3-5; Confess Christ - Matt. 10.32, Rom. 10.9-10.

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), November 03, 2003.

I did post in the "Divorce" thread, yesterday. Kevin.

rod..

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-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), November 03, 2003.

rod,

I sent you a reply on that thread. I overlooked what you had posted. Sorry!

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), November 04, 2003.

Hi, Rod, There was a title (Titulus): This is the King of the Jews, so most likely a small t.

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), November 05, 2003.