1 John 5:7, Which one?greenspun.com : LUSENET : Ask Jesus : One Thread |
Readers,
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-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@gmail.com), November 28, 2005.
Can you figure out why some Bible versions contain different writings of 1 John 5:7?
KJV: "For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one."
RVS: "And the Spirit is the witness, because the Spirit is the Truth."
Perhaps the following link may provide answers: Explanation.
rod..
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-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), September 13, 2003
Can someone provide a better explanation than the one provided in that website I posted above? Islam is not my cup of tea. If I made my views obvious, well.....we won't go there.rod..
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-- Rodriguez (elreyrod@yahoo.com), September 13, 2003.
Yes,Satan has made his false bible(s)(RVS) and is decieving people.
-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), October 11, 2003.
¿Hay, David que tienes con Satanas? I could flippantly make the same attack on the King James Bible, but I wouldn't give Satan any credit. The errors or changes found in any Bible version or translation is not Satanic, but human(ic) deeds. Surely, Catholics could be blamed for those changes, but if statistics mean anything, the Protestants take the cake, "hasta el tronquo". Yes....I know what you'll say, "Prove it".I've been listening to Sunday morning church shows: Lutherns, Church of Christ, and some New Age Junk....uh, Church. What amazes me is the Church of Christ. It follows exactly what I've learned from Kevin. They are not a denomination, have no church to follow, they have elders, they obey the New Testament, any man can understand the simplicity of the Bible, all can understand the Bible the same way through "obedience" of the Gospel, their choirs sing without instrumental accompaniments, and so on. And then, the clincher:"We challenge you to (prove it)". Why do most, if not all, fundamentalists resort to "prove it" tactics? Why not teach the Word and stop being so defensive about their interpretations and cease with the "prove it" stance? I suppose I'm too critical and get turned off to such tactics. I don't know. Anyway, a person could spend a lifetime "proving" stuff, Jesus raised the dead and still people didn't believe. He proved it.<
-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), October 12, 2003.
The reason I can't answer to Kevin sometimes is because he is the first Church of Christ member I have met. I have never heard of tht church before and did not know what they teach. I am just used to talking with Catholics.
-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), October 12, 2003.
Every Sunday morning, before church, at 8:00 a.m. on the Valley's talk radio 710 (?) I listen to the Lutheran Hour and later the church out of McAllen, Church of Christ (or maybe it is out of Edinburg). I also watch the Catholic programs on channel 60. Also, Fr. Nicolau puts on a quirky show. I enjoy the mass on t.v. and get emotional during the Holy Communion part. I allow my son to attend mass with my parents and he attends the church my wife attends. I attend her church and do my own study and worship (if that is possible). The Church of Christ seems un-follied and close to sincere worship. I would be wasting my time trying to convince Kevin or anyone of his group that their theology is a little off centered. But, what do I know?rod..
-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), October 12, 2003.
Topping for Elpidio to comment on this topic, please.rod..
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-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), November 15, 2003.
I think I have "this-lacks-yeah". That isn't the "RVS" ; it should be the "RSV". The Revised Standard Version.................................
-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), February 19, 2004.
Rod, I will try to give you an answer tomorrow.John has many interpolations. Also the First letter bearing his name. It is in a good Greek.
I wonder who wrote it since John was a fisherman.
The Christian Yahwist/The Man of Yahweh
-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), February 19, 2004.
Elpidio, yo no sabia que podias hablar en frances tambien. No vayas a creer que you tambien hablo en frances. Si lo comprendo y lo leo, per no lo hablo........................
-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), February 19, 2004.
Hey, Rod,Viva la raza!
About John's letter, this is what the NIV has to say.
1 John 5:8 :: New International Version (NIV) 1 John 5 8the[1] Spirit, the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement.
Footnotes
5:7,8 Late manuscripts of the Vulgate testify in heaven: the Father, the Word and the Holy Spirit, and these three are one. 8 And there are three that testify on earth: the (not found in any Greek manuscript before the sixteenth century)
I have a Greek New Testament which shows all the variants. It tells you which manuscripts have it and which don't.
It is a Nestle Alland.
I have another one which gives a word by word.
Then I have the septuagint in Greek and the masoretic side by side. I have the Masoretic text in Hebrew and English I have Jsephus I have eusebius I have the Greek/Latin Didache, letters of Ignatius, and so on I have books from Protestant critics and commentator, Catholics, Jews,..
I have the Koran in Arabic and Spanish, in English I have the book of Mormon in Enlish and Spanish I have as many copies as I can have of all pseudopigrapha, deuterocanonicals, and so for.
I have the complete Catholic, Protestant, and Greek Orthodox canons.
I have the documents which prove the image of La Virgen de Guadalupe is fake (from the man who taught the Indians Espanol around 1521-1555)
I started at 19 asking questions from my priests. They could not answer. So they gave me their books to read.
Nice stuff.
It was a priest who told me God's name is Yave.
So most of the stuff I believe I first learned that from Catholics.
Even at the university and college I had a minor in religious studies. My teachers were former catholic theologians (Jesuits).
They told me to see something from the eyes of others.
I am grateful to them.
The Christian Yahwist/The Man of Yahweh
-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), February 19, 2004.
"I have the documents which prove the image of La Virgen de Guadalupe is fake (from the man who taught the Indians Espanol around 1521-1555)"yet more anti-Catholic gunk.
the sheeps's coat is starting to look rather wolf-like.
the "man of yahweh" is swimming under the Ark, hoping upon hope that his little limpet-mine will have an effect.
sad truth is, no-one will notice.
-- Ian (ib@vertifgo.com), February 21, 2004.
Ian, From this site on La Virgen de Guadalupe by a criticwe see her name was Tonantzin, an aztec goddess.
"One of the temples destroyed during the early years was that of the goddess Tonantzin, located on Tepeyac Hill. Tonantzin is believed to be a manifestation of the Earth Mother, known as Coatlicue, the mother of all living things, who conceived by immaculate and miraculous means. She was also the one to decide the length of life; to the Mexica, the earth was both mother and tomb, the giver of life and the devourer. Human sacrifice and harsh physical penance were used to appease this goddess. Tonantzin, or Little Mother, patron of childbirth, had a devout following; the Aztecs mourned their goddess and felt threatened and endangered by the profanation and razing of her temple by the Spaniards." [1]
Sure was fortuitous that the Earth Mother elected to make an appearance, either as Tonantzin or the Virgin Mary, to that Aztec convert. Had she not shown up, it seems likely the history of the Spanish presence in the Americas would be greatly different. It would be fair to say, I believe, that had she not put in an appearance, someone likely would have circulated a story that she had. Perhaps someone did.
The earliest written record we have of the encounter between the Earth Mother Coatlaxopeuh and the wonderfully humble new-Catholic Cuauhtlatohuc is the Nican Mopohua, "written in Náhuatl between 1558 and 1570 by Antonio Valeriano, perhaps with the collaboration of others." [2] This document is in the Public Library in New York City
The Christian Yahwist
-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), February 23, 2004.
Ian,The history of the apparation comes from this Nahuatl text, the Nican Mopohua
.Many words are already in Spanish like Obispo, Lunes,...which shows to me the text is Catholic by this time. The Indian way of counting time has been suppressed by this time. Notice the time of its publication. Compare that with the apparition as occurrring in 1531.
This I took from this place:
La tradición de las apariciones vio originalmente la luz publicada por Miguel Sánchez en 1648. El texto conocido como Nican Mopohua apareció por primera vez impreso en el libro de Luis Laso de la Vega en 1649. En realidad "Nican Mopohua" no es el título del libro, sino las 2 primeras palabras del texto, que le ha sido atribuido a Antonio Valeriano, un connotado indio del colegio de Santa Cruz Tlatelolco.
Also this site also tell you who wrote about the sipposed apparition first: Text de Fray Bernardino on Guadalupe
I listed here also: Textos de Fray Bernardino de Sahagún respecto al culto Guadalupano
Fragmento 1
"Cerca de los montes hay tres o cuatro lugares donde solían hacer muy solemnes sacrificios, y que venían a ellos de muy lejanas tierras. El uno de estos es aquí en México, donde está un montecillo que se llama Tepeacac, y los españoles llaman Tepeaquilla y ahora se llama Nuestra Señora de Guadalupe; en este lugar tenían un templo dedicado a la madre de los dioses que llamaban Tonantzin, que quiere decir Nuestra Madre; allí hacían muchos sacrificios a honra de esta diosa, y venían a ellos de muy lejanas tierras, de más de veinte leguas, de todas estas comarcas de México, y traían muchas ofrendas; venían hombres y mujeres, y mozos y mozas a estas fiestas: era grande el concurso de gente en estos días, y todos decían vamos a la Fiesta de Tonantzin; y ahora que está allí edificada la iglesia de Nuestra Señora de Guadalupe también la llaman Tonantzin tomada ocasión de los predicadores que a Nuestra Señora la Madre de Dios la llaman Tonantzin. De dónde haya nacido esta fundación de esta Tonantzin no se sabe de cierto,
pero esto sabemos de cierto que el vocablo significa de su primera imposición a aquella Tonantzin antigua, y es cosa que se debía remediar porque el propio nombre de la Madre de Dios Señora Nuestra no es Tonantzin sino Dios y Nantzin; parece esta invención satánica para paliar la idolatría debajo la equivocación de este nombre Tonantzin y vienen ahora a visitar a esta Tonantzin de muy lejos, tan lejos como de antes, la cual devoción también es sospechosa, porque en todas partes hay muchas iglesias de Nuestra Señora, y no van a ellas, y vienen de lejanas tierras a esta Tonantzin como antiguamente."
Fragmento 2
"La 3a. dissimulación es tomada de los nombres de los ydolos que allí se celebraban que los nombres con que se nombran en latín o en español significan lo mismo que significaba el nombre de el ydolo que allí adorababn antiguamente. Como en esta Ciudad de México en el lugar donde está Sta. María de Guadalupe, se adoraba un ydolo que antiguamente se llamaba Tonantzin y con este mismo nombre adoran ahora a Nuestra Señora la Virgen María, diziendo que van a Tonantzin, o que hacen fiesta a Tonantzin, y entendiéndolo por lo antiguo y no por lo moderno."
Comentario
Las primera cita proviene del apéndice "Adición sobre supersticiones" del Libro XI de La Historia General de las Cosas de la Nueva España, escrito por Fray Bernardino de Sahagún en 1576. Este notable franciscano, llegado a la Nueva España hacia 1529, dedicó el resto de su vida a la comprensión de las idolatrías de los indios y se convirtió en uno de los más importantes conocedores de la lengua náhuatl. Su método de investigación mediante la aplicación de cuestionarios a viejos informantes sentó las bases de la moderna antropología.
The commentary is not mine, but from the site. The site is not against Guadalupe.
The Christian Yahwist
PS: So in conclusion, Ian, they had lied to you about the history of Guadalupe.
They had lied to you also about the trinity before.
There is so much to learn.
The Man of Yahweh
-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), February 23, 2004.
Ian, it took me 3 months to read Sahagun's 12 books written in Nahuatl and As to his biography, of who he was here it is:The Christian Yahwist
PS: As a Catholic I portrayed JuanDiego in Church plays in the 1980s.
-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), February 23, 2004.
Ian do you read spanish?.....................
-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), February 23, 2004.
What does verse 6 and 8 say in those translations?Mine reads like this
6. This is the one who came by water and blood--Jesus Christ. He did not come by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth.
7. For there are three that testify:
8. the Spirit, the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement.
9. We accept man's testimony, but God's testimony is greater because it is the testimony of God, which he has given about His Son.
It seems to me that these verses are not about the trinity--but about the fact that Jesus is God's Son. ****************************************************
Here are some verses to reveal the Trinity...
The Trinity Matthew 28:20
Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."
The three divine persons mentioned in the Bible share equally the divine nature of God. In His Triune name--Father, Son, and Holy Spirit--we are to be baptized...according to God's Word.
The Holy Spirit is God and Lord
I find that Scripture clearly reveals that the Holy Spirit is God. For example, when Ananias and his wife Sapphira lied to the apostles in (Acts 5:1-4), Peter said;
"Ananias, how is it that Satan has so filled your heart that you have lied to the Holy Spirit and have kept for yourself some of the money you received for the land?...you have not lied to men but to God".
In lying to the Holy Spirit, Ananias lied to God-- according to God's own Word.
Scripture identifies the Holy Spirit with God in Isaiah 6:9. The Lord told the prophet Isaiah.. "Go and tell this people"....and the apostle Paul, refering to this passage, states that the Holy Spirit spoke these words through the prophet Isaiah, in Acts 28:25-26: They disagreed among themselves and began to leave after Paul made this statement: "The Holy Spirit spoke the truth to your forefathers when he said through Isaiah the prophet:
'Go to this people and say, You will be ever hearing but never understanding; you will be ever seeing but never perceiving.'" ***************************************************
For me, the teaching of God as a Tri-unity is the positive testimony of the Scriptures themselves.
I see three distinctive divine persons. They are properly called God, whether separately or collectively. They are not three separate Gods, but one eternal God--Father, Son and Spirit.
There is one Lord (Ephesians 4:5)
Father, Lord of heaven and earth (Matthew 11:25)
James speaks of "Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory" (James 2:1)
(2 Corinthians 3:17) states: "The Lord is Spirit"
There is "One Spirit" (Eph 4:4). He is the "Holy Spirit" (Matt 28:19), "The Spirit of Christ" (Romans 8:9), and the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead' (Romans 8:11).
The Spirit of God creates: Psalm 104:30 The Son of God is the creator: Hebrews 1:10 One God created us: Malachi 2:10
The Spirit of God lives in you: Romans 8:9 Christ dwells in your hearts: Ephesians 3:17 God dwells in His Temple, His people: 2 Cor. 6:16
The Father and Son make their home with the believer: John 14:23
I think there is enough evidence of the Trinity that Christianity does not fall apart without that verse in 1 John., If it was an add- in., it was not necessary.
-- (faith01@myway.com), February 24, 2004.
Rodpocito.
i can stumble through.
-- Ian (ib@vertifgo.com), February 25, 2004.
Ah! I can eventually understand a number of languages and converse in them. Pronunciation is another thing, though. The internet makes life and languages a bit easier.Your french is excellent, Ian.
.................................
-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), February 25, 2004.
Here is Zarove's newer thread about this topic.http://greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=00CHlT
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-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), March 10, 2005.
The revelation about the Trinity--does not rest on this one single verse.I find that Scripture clearly reveals that the Holy Spirit is God. For example, when Ananias and his wife Sapphira lied to the apostles in (Acts 5:1-4), Peter said;
"Ananias, how is it that Satan has so filled your heart that you have lied to the Holy Spirit and have kept for yourself some of the money you received for the land?...you have not lied to men but to God".
In lying to the Holy Spirit, Ananias lied to God-- according to God's own Word.
Scripture identifies the Holy Spirit with Jehovah in Isaiah 6:9-10. The Lord told the prophet Isaiah..
Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, "Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?"
And I said, "Here am I. Send me!" He said, "Go and tell this people:
" 'Be ever hearing, but never understanding; be ever seeing, but never perceiving.' Make the heart of this people calloused; make their ears dull and close their eyes.
Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts, and turn and be healed."
...and the apostle Paul, refering to this passage, states that the Holy Spirit spoke these words through the prophet Isaiah, in Acts 28:25-26:
They disagreed among themselves and began to leave after Paul made this statement: "The Holy Spirit spoke the truth to your forefathers when he said through Isaiah the prophet: 'Go to this people and say, You will be ever hearing but never understanding; you will be ever seeing but never perceiving.'"
***************************************************
For me, the teaching of God as a Tri-unity is the positive testimony of the Scriptures themselves.
I see three distinctive divine persons. They are properly called God, whether separately or collectively. They are not three separate Gods, but one eternal God--Father, Son and Spirit.
There is one Lord (Ephesians 4:5)
Father, Lord of heaven and earth (Matthew 11:25)
James speaks of "Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory" (James 2:1)
(2 Corinthians 3:17) states: "The Lord is Spirit"
There is "One Spirit" (Eph 4:4). He is the "Holy Spirit" (Matt 28:19), "The Spirit of Christ" (Romans 8:9), and the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead' (Romans 8:11).
See Philippians 2:5-11 Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:
Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death-- even death on a cross! Therefore God exhalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
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I think that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are so clearly and consistently linked in Scripture that to assume that God is not of three persons makes it impossible to understand some passages. For example.....
For this reason I kneel before the Father...I pray that out of his glorious riches he may strengthen you with power through his Spirit in your inner being, so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith" (Ephesians 3:14,16,17a).
May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with with you all (2 Corinthians 13:14).
Now it is God who makes both us and you stand firm in Christ. He annointed us, set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come ( Corinthians 1:21,22).
Give thanks in all circumstances, for this is God's will for you in Christ Jesus . Do not put out the Spirit's fire (1 Thess. 5:18,19). But when the kindness and love of God our Savior appeared, he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior (Titus 3:3-6).
There are different kinds of gifts, but the same Spirit. There are different kinds of service, but the same Lord. There are different kinds of working, but the same God works all of them in all men (1 Cor. 12:4-6).
"But we ought always to thank God for you, brothers loved by the Lord, because from the begining God chose you to be saved through the sactifying work of the Spirit and through belief in the truth" ( 2 Thess. 2:13,14).
-- (faith01@myway.com), March 10, 2005.
"The revelation about the Trinity--does not rest on this one single verse. "--Faith.The issue in the original topic dealt with the accuracy of the Bible versions, not whether the Holy Trinity is true.
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-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), March 10, 2005.
I think you'll find that the additional words in the KJV were purposely added to support a Trinity doctrine. No one really seems to think they belong except for the KJV only club.
-- Luke Juarez (hubertdorm@yahoo.com), March 10, 2005.
rod,I think that any true add-ins or false verses have been discovered and taken out. The honesty with which our Bible has come together is, for the most part, very good. There are really no undetected problems. Just because there were some, doesn't mean that we can just claim it every time a verse doesn't jive with what we want to be true.
When compared to ancient Dead Sea scrolls--our translations are virtually the same, except for some spelling mistakes. This is because great care was taken by most people to translate these Scriptures as accurately as possible.
I can see the Trinity revealed throughout the Scriptures--even starting with Genesis 1:26 Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move along the ground."
Try answering the following questions without concluding that the Bible teaches the doctrine of the Trinity:
Who raised Jesus from the dead? The Father (Romans 6:4)? The Son (John 2:19-21; 10:17,18)? The Holy Spirit (Romans 8:11)? Or God (Acts 3:26; 1 Thess. 1:1,5; 4:2,8; 2 Thess. 3:5; 1 John 3:23,24)?
Who does the Bible say is God? The Father (Ephesians 4:6)? The Son (Titus 2:13; John 1:1; 20:28)? The Holy Spirit (Acts 5:3,4)? Or God (Deuteronomy 4:35; Isaiah 45:18)?
Who created the world? The Father (Ephesians 3:9-14; 4:6)? The Son (Colossians 1:16-17;John 1:1-3)? The Holy Spirit (Genesis 1:2; Psalm 104:30)? Or God (Genesis 1:1; Hebrews 11:3)?
Who saves and regenerates man? 1 Peter 1:3; John 5:21; 4:14; John 3:6; Titus 3:5; or 1 John 3:9. Who justifies man? Jeremiah 23:6;2 Cor. 5:19; Romans 5:9; 10:4; 2 Cor 5:19,21; 1 Cor 6:11; Gal 5:5; Roman's 4:6; 9:33. Who sanctifies man? Jude 1; Titus 2:14; 1 Peter 1:2; Exodus 31:13.
God declares:
Zech. 12:10 "And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son.
Unless we want to claim that the entire Word of God and all revelation is an add-in, we must add all revelation together to understand what God is telling us. No one verse alone can carry everything--but when taken as a whole--we can see.
-- (faith01@myway.com), March 10, 2005.