It amazes me how illogical some people think.

It goes like this:

Allah is Arabic for god. (I didn't realize how many people were fluent in Arabic, or Greek for that matter.). "God" is the English word for the Christian God. Therefore Muslims and Christians must serve the same god.

First of all, "God" is not a specific god. Have you ever wondered why we named all the other moons but not our own? Its name is not moon! The Christian Gods’ name is Jehovah.

And secondly, Allah had no son that died for our sins. How can a "god" with no son be the same as a God with a son?

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), August 29, 2003

Answers

It is believed that Allah sent Mohammad to do the job of prophet. Mohammad is believed to be superior to Jesus. Jesus is viewed as just a prophet, not a redeemer. So, who is the true "God", Mohammad's or Jesus'? There is only one God; it isn't Mohammad's. But, Mohammad is God's whether Mohammad knew it or not, or at least had the chance to be God's.

To deny Jesus is to deny God.

rod..

..<

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), August 29, 2003.

Check out this website:

Mohammed and His Religion

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), August 29, 2003.

The man who invented the Moon God theory, has been exposed as a liar by both Christian and Muslim sources:

Christian Source: http://www.apologeticsindex.org/f12.html

Quote: "He made false and ignorant accusations, and tried to justify them by misquoting texts from the Quran"

Muslim source: http://www.examinethetruth.com/morey_challenge.htm

Quote:

"If Dr. Robert Morey can prove my evidence as false by showing that his statements against Islam are true, I will offer him CASH awards (which is $500.00)"

-- Nadir Ahmed (nadirahmedassalafi@hotmail.com), December 30, 2003.

It is sad that you christians think that your religion is right. All you people do is revise your bible insult islam and yell alot about healing people. God sent Mohammad[peace be upon him] as the last prophet to world and we should all listen to his words if we want to enter heaven. Poor jesus [peace be upon him] is innocent of all your sins, he will denounce all of you idiots on the day of judgment.

-- fatima (iloveullah@love.com), May 17, 2004.

fatima

You complain about Christians criticizing your Islam, then you turn around and criticize Christianity. If you are an example of Islam, you have failed. Why not start again and meet us half-way? Do not burn the bridges behind you.

.............

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), May 17, 2004.

Fatimah was the name of the daughter of the Prophet Muhhammad.

Her mom was a Christian (Syrian).

Muhammad had visions around age 39.

Islam was born as a Christian Sect. Then Muhammad turned to Mecca from Jerusalem.

The rest is history.

The Christian Yahwist.

PS: Fatima. I accept Muhammad as a prophet, but not the last prophet.

God (Yahweh)=Allah will always continue to choose people to serve as prophets to guide people into salvation.

He always did. He always will.

There will be more prophets of Yahweh=Allah in the future.

The Man of Yahweh

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), May 17, 2004.

Fatima, Muslims are part of the modern Christian Arrians. Muhammad was influenced by them.

The other are the Jehovah's Witnesses.

I also don't believe Jesus is God, but I have my reasons.

The Christian Yahwist

The Man of Yahweh

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), May 17, 2004.

Beware of false profits.............Mohomed never performed a single miracle, how does that stack up to Jesus's track record??? Hmm......

The muslem religion is a false religion, it's a cult, and all that are part of it are mislead. You cannot denounce the salvation given to us by Christ with one hand, and tell people to look up to some self serving guy in the other. If we needed to go that route, we might as well remain Jews, it's not by works alone where we are saved, but by the grace of god and only the grace of god.

Muslems do NOT worship the same God as Christians and Jews, just like the Hindus do NOT worship the same God.

-- noname (noname@noname.com), May 23, 2004.

That is the only reason I trusted Muhammad, noname.

He did not claim miracles, except one. When he got victory after defeat in war.

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), May 24, 2004.

faith, this is all about. people shouldn't claim some anonimous theory against others truth. Moslems has their own truth and faith, Cristians either, Fatima speaks based to her faith, the other is the same. this will endless story. I my self believe in One God, the all mighty ALLAH and Mohammad is his mesenngers. I dont think I have to push my faith belong others, yes, that moslems obliged to do "syi'ar" to tell the world about the holy Qur'an. the Mohammad (PBUH) was never argue to ensist his believe upon others. that is why Christian, jews, and other religions, can live together in same region under his governance. ...and his protection. there is a price for moslems, "do not sell your faith in cheap" to me, it means that you have to put your faith in a high place, by respect "others", you keep your faith out of humiliation. So let us just say, Lakum Diinukum Waliyadiin, My Faith is belong tome, your one is belong to yours.

The last, I have been search many theory that can strengthen my faith about Mohammad is the last prophet and other, but finally I do believe that that is not the way you can increase your faith and "Iman". The best way is, feel the truth inside, Do it in your live, you will finally meet the real truth

-- yusuf (achi3l@telkom.net), July 04, 2004.

hi. well being a christian and having experienced the fullness of grace, i can hardly imagine giving up that freedom for religion again. Jesus is God. When he lived on earth, he was 100% God and 100% man(that is why he had authority to call himself God, in fact he dared to) And he was no crazy man. He possessed fruits of the spirit that Muhammed can never lay claim to. He died for the whole world present and future which means he died for the jew, the muslim, the hindu and everybody else that they may come into fullness of life. I love Jesus he was straight about what he believed and what was true and just even at the expense of his life. Muhammed would not have done that, and if anyone curcified him, it would be justified because he was a sinner like everybody else. Jesus was the only man on God's earth who ever lived a sinless life. I believe the Koran testifies to that as well. So if Allah says Muhammed was the last prophet, then no my friend, he cannot be the same god as my God Jehovah. We obviously serve two different Gods-to even compare Allah to Jehovah is sin in itself. God the Father, God the son and God the Holyspirit (all in one-just as a human being is 3 in 1 as well. your physical body,your soul(mind)and your spirit operating all in one to make you who you are)That is why the bible says he made us in his image. Who can compare with this God we serve...no not one. But the good news is this gospel is available to all.jUST BELIEVE AS MENTIONED IN 1 JOHN.Jesus loves you

-- janine fisher (general@bluebottle.com), July 26, 2004.

Janine,

Yusuf and Fatima, both Muslims, Jews, Assemblies of Yahweh, Jehovah's Witnesses, and me, a Christian Yahwist, we worship God Yahweh under different names.

Christian worship a man, Jesus, whom God yahweh sent to show people the way to salvation as Yahweh himself. Jesus never was, never is, and never will be Yahweh himself.

See Christian Yahwist beliefs here:

The Way-The Church of Yahweh in Christ Jesus

Christian yahwism

The Christian Yahwist

The Man of Yahweh

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), July 26, 2004.

Obviously all gods are not the same as the God of the Bible. How could they be?

The Jehovah Witnesses deny that Jesus is God. So how can they be worshiping the same God? The God of the Bible is a triune God...

They say that Jehovah., who is the Alpha and Omega, the First and the Last and the Begining from the End is not Jesus--yet the Bible says otherwise:

Revelation 1:17-18

When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: "Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last. I am the Living One; I was dead, and behold I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades.

Show that verse to a Jehovah's Witness and ask them, "When did God die?" They won't be able to answer ....

How can the God of the Bible be the same God as the Muslim God when the term "Allah" is a purely Arabic term used in reference to an Arabian deity? He was one of the many deities that already existed in Mecca. The tribe that Muhammad was born into was particularly devoted to Allah, which was the moon god. The cresent moon is the symbol for the moon god. What symbol do we see at the top of a mosque?

Is this the same God as the God of the Bible?

-- ("faith01@myway.com"), July 26, 2004.

elpido, one can never truly serve God unless one believes or rather accepts Jesus as God. He said" I AM THE WAY, THE TRUTH AND THE LIFE..NO MAN CAN COME UNTO THE FATHER EXCEPT BY ME" Jesus said it plain enough. No man...so what makes you think that by believing in God and not Jesus,you can come into eternal life(which is ultimately all our goals as christians.) i am going to read more on this yahwenism of yours to educate myself. But do you believe in Jehovah God. The basis of our faith is Jesus who always pointed mankind to JEHOVAH. It IS IMPOSSIBLE TO BE CHRISTIAN WITHOUT THE CHRIST PART. SO YAHWEHISTS ARE PROBABLY NOT CHRISTIANS. so yes your'e right, jesus is not yahweh but he is God(i explained the triune god we christians serve)And from what i have read on innumerous occasions, Jehovah's witnesses deny YAHWEH, they say it was a name made up by catholics or have they changed their minds again..mmm Jesus came to bring mankind into the fullness of understanding and knowing God, if you omit or rejedt Jesus(who died for you, you live because of the sacrifice he made) you ultimately omit God who sent him and reject salvation. The bible says unless a man be born again(by the spirit, by believing in Jesus)he can IN NO WISE enter the kingdom of heaven. So in layman's terms if you dont believe in Jesus you will never never never get to heaven or experience salavation. Not even Muhammed claimed to be the way, the truth and the life because he was a liar and he has led countless Muslim astray with his religion and he too will answer to God for this. Millions of well meaning muslims are in hell and are going there fast because he used a spirit of deception to deceive people out of grace(offered by Jesus)into a futile religion with 50000000 rules and no guarantee of salvation. Jesus loves you.

-- janine fisher (general@bluebottle.com), July 27, 2004.

hi again elpido. just read the info on the yahwehists. i see now where your'e coming from and while you take all your readings from the same bible i do, i wonder yet still. in your scriptures proving that jESUS was not God, how do you manage to omit Jesus saying to his disciples that if they have seen him, they have seen God.And by saying he is the son of God, he put himself on equal standing with God. As I said Jesus was 100% God and man an as a man he showed us by him being answerable to God that we ought to be as well. Jesus showed that eventhough he was God on the earth, he acted not on his will but upon the will of God. Even as he prayed in the garden of gethsemane... Father, make them one as we are one. Jesus could have acted on his own authority and thrown his weight around if he wanted to but thats not what he was all about. in being answerable to God the Father, he showed us unity which is what we as the church are working toward. Come on guys!! Even the devil when he tempted him told him that He can summon angels to assist him. Jesus could have shown off and called millions of angels to beat the devil up but he knew his purpose and defeated satan with the word and the will of God. that is the God we serve, one with the father and the holyspirit and most certainly equal with him.

And you know what..even if Jesus did not go to the cross for my sin. i would still worship. you know why??because out of all the people in the world, he lived a faultless life and that makes him God to me anyway. Do you know of anyone else that was sinless....bring them on...Muhammed, Krishna(oh please), anyone ....Thought so.

Jesus loves you

-- janine fisher (general@bluebottle.com), July 27, 2004.

Elpidio..,

Also.,

Islam teaches that Jesus was just a messenger of God. Like you--they do not accept that Jesus was God...Muslims deny that Jesus is God Almighty come in the flesh--just as you do.

But the Bible says:

John 1:1-4, 14 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. In him was life, and that life was the light of men.

The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

and...

1 John 4:1-3

Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world.

Muslims deny that Jesus is the final, conclusive revelation of God. I think you also deny this. But the Bible says:

Heb 1:1-3

In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven.

And....

Is Allah the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob? Muhammad said yes--but is he correct? Who did Allah choose? Didn't he choose Hagar and her son Ishmael for his covenant?

Yet, the God of the Bible chose Abraham's other son, Isaac, as heir to His covenant. How could these be the same God?

Genesis 17:18-22

And Abraham said to God, "If only Ishmael might live under your blessing!" Then God said, "Yes, but your wife Sarah will bear you a son, and you will call him Isaac. I will establish my covenant with him as an everlasting covenant for his descendants after him. And as for Ishmael, I have heard you: I will surely bless him; I will make him fruitful and will greatly increase his numbers. He will be the father of twelve rulers, and I will make him into a great nation. But my covenant I will establish with Isaac, whom Sarah will bear to you by this time next year." When he had finished speaking with Abraham, God went up from him.

-- ("Faith01@myway.com"), July 27, 2004.

faith,

You wrote: "Allah" is a purely Arabic term used in reference to an Arabian deity? He was one of the many deities that already existed in Mecca. The tribe that Muhammad was born into was particularly devoted to Allah, which was the moon god. The cresent moon is the symbol for the moon god.

In Aramaic, Jesus language, God is called Allaha. Elah is plural. See this Christian site Eloah,Elah,Allah

Arabs who spoke Aramaic incorporated this word into Arabic as Allah or Allaha or many more depending on the inflection. See examples from the Quran on Allah Allah

Arabs were not yet Christianized in the Arabian peninsula. As you said, they were mostly pagan.

For fun, faith, look up the word faith in Aramaic. Also hope( my name in Greek).

The Christian Yahwist

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), July 27, 2004.

Here is the Aramaic dictionary, faith. The word God . read from left to right: alaha Word: hl0 (alah) Lexeme: 0hl0 (alaha) Root: hl0 Word Number: 904 Meaning: God Pronunciation: (Eastern) AaLaH (Western) AaLoH Part of Speech: Noun Gender: Masculine

Aramaic Dictionary

Example:faith Word: Fwnmyhb Lexeme: Fwnmyh Root: Nmyh Word Number: 1186 Meaning: faith Pronunciation: (Eastern) B'HaYMaNuOT,aA (Western) B'HaYMoNuOT,oA Part of Speech: Noun Gender: Feminine

Where used † Acts — 8:21, 14:22, 15:9, 16:5, 16:34, 26:18 † Yaqub — 1:6, 2:5 † Keepa — 5:9 † Romans — 1:12, 3:25, 3:30, 3:30, 3:31, 4:16, 4:20, 5:1, 5:2, 11:20, 14:1, 14:23, 15:13 † 1Corinthians — 16:13 † 2Corinthians — 1:24, 5:7, 8:7, 13:5 † Galatians — 2:16, 2:20, 3:11, 3:14, 3:22, 3:26 † Ephesians — 2:8, 3:17, 4:13 † Philippians — 1:27 † Colossians — 2:7 † 1Timothy — 1:2, 1:4, 1:19, 2:7, 2:15, 3:13, 5:8 † 2Timothy — 1:13, 3:15 † Titus — 1:1, 1:4, 1:13, 2:2, 3:15 † Hebrews — 4:2, 11:3,

There is more than one form of each in Aramaic as opposed to English and Spanish.

Have fun.

The Christian Yahwist

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), July 27, 2004.

Trying again, faith,

Aramaic dictionary

Click on Aramaic speaking on the ASSYRIA page.

The Christian Yahwist

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), July 27, 2004.

Janine,

when you wrote Muhammad said he was the last prophet, that doesn't invalidate the fact Yahweh is Allah. The Jews claim revelation closed in 400 BCE (BC). For that reason they reject Jesus as a prophet. Yet you and I know that is not true.

Christians like yourself believe that the God of the Jews, Yahweh, incarnated as Jesus in human form in the body of Mary.

So if Allah says Muhammed was the last prophet, then no my friend, he cannot be the same god as my God Jehovah. We obviously serve two different Gods-to even compare Allah to Jehovah is sin in itself. God the Father, God the son and God the Holy spirit (all in one-just as a human being is 3 in 1 as well

In like manner, about 2 years ago, I had a ranking Jehovah's Witness who came to my mother's house in Compton confess to his adolescent son that Yahweh is the Hebrew pronunciation of God's name. You could have seen the expression in that young man's face!!!! The father never passed by my mother's house again.

Ancient writers say that the Samaritans pronounced God's name as Iabe (pronounced more like Yaveh).

As to your second premise that Yahwists don't accept Christ most of us do. The only Yahwists not to accept Jesus are the Jews. The basis of our faith is Jesus who always pointed mankind to JEHOVAH. It IS IMPOSSIBLE TO BE CHRISTIAN WITHOUT THE CHRIST PART. SO YAHWEHISTS ARE PROBABLY NOT CHRISTIANS.

To be a Christian means that we accept Jesus as the Way to the father, not that he is the father.

In the first place Jesus prayed to God. Why pray to God if you are God!!!

Jesus said he did not know the hour. God Yahweh knows!!!(Mark)

A voice was heard from Heaven and the Spirit descended as a dove. This means the Holy Spirit is not Jesus, and the voice wasn't from Jesus.(Mark 1)

Jesus said he was ascending to his God!!!(John 20)

There are more than 200 scriptures which show Jesus is not Yahweh.

I am not just any type of Yahwist. Most still follow Jewish customs. They hate the word Christian. That is why some use the word Messianic.

I am a Christian Yahwist. Mine is a combination of Jamesian Ebionism when it comes about what to do in our lives and Pauline Christianity as how we believe with respect to our faith in God Yahweh.

Most Ebionites or Yahwists reject Paul as an apostate. I don't.

Christian Yahwists realize that Paul presented a more special way of Yahweh calling gentiles to worship him, which did not include Jewish rituals.

The Christian Yahwist

The Man of Yahweh

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), July 27, 2004.

I don't need to try again Elpidio.

The dominant religion just prior to Muhammad was Sabianism, a religion in which heavenly bodies were worshiped. The moon was viewed as a male deity, and a lunar calandar was used. The pagan rite of fasting began with the appearance of the cresent moon. Fasting was later adopted as one of the pillars of faith of Islam. Fasting in Ramadan, in the ninth month, already preexisted in the Arab world before Muhammad was ever born.

The issue isn't the name *Allah*--but just *who* is this Allah?

You failed to address the fact that Muhammad, when he took over Mecca- -destroyed all the idols and gods--such as the sun god, who was married to the moon god., and their three daughters. He destroyed the entire pantheon of Arabian deities--except for Allah, the moon god...and isn't it interesting that the symbol above the Mosque is a cresent moon?

How can this be the same God as the God of the Bible?

Are you ignoring my point about just who the God of the Bible made His covenant with...Isaac or Ishmael?

And ....

You also failed to address the idea that the Bible reveals that Jesus is the last prophet of God.

-- ("faith01@myway.com"), July 27, 2004.

Faith you are right in saying Jesus was a prophet from Yahweh:

Act 3:22 For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you.

Act 3:23 And it shall come to pass, [that] every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.

Act 7:37 This is that Moses, which said unto the children of Israel, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear.

Jesus wasn't the last prophet, faith.

Don't forget

Act 15:32 And Judas and Silas, being prophets also themselves, exhorted the brethren with many words, and confirmed [them].

Act 21:10 And as we tarried [there] many days, there came down from Judaea a certain prophet, named Agabus.

Don Bosco was a prophet in the 1800s. Not only he predicted the deaths of people, but the troubles of the catholic Church in his days. So is sister Lucia since 1917.

Anyone who God sends witha message, is a prophet, faith.

As to the moon God? Well, Moses received the 10 commandments on Mount SINai. Noticed I capitalized SIN, the Moon God of Ur where Abraham came from. Jews, descedded from ancient Israelites still follow the moon. They have a lunar calendar. Medinah named after Muhammad was Yatrhib, named after Jethro the priest of Midian Moses father- in - Law. Yathrib is close to Mecca.

Moses learned his religion there, faith. Even the name Yahweh. Israelites like Jacob and Joseph called God EL Shaddai.

The Christian Yahwist

The

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), July 27, 2004.

Elpidio.. I was not agreeing that Jesus was a mere prophet..though He certainly prophesied.

Jesus was the Son of the Living God--God in the flesh...according to Scripture. And He was the last revelation.

Heb 1:1-3

In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven.

Nothing more is needed., though there are a few more revelations in the New Testament that relate to this truth about who Jesus was.

Also., are you saying that God approved of pagan practices such as worshiping the moon?

-- ("faith01@myway.com"), July 27, 2004.

Yes, and no, faith.

He allowed the Israelites to copy Egyptian models for the Ark of the covenant. I have a picture of an Egyptian ark. It looks like the Ark of the Covenant of Moses.

He allowed to be called El Shaddai (and probably Sin) by Abraham and his descendants until Moses.

He allowed the bronze serpent of Moses until Hezekiah destroyed it. Even though there should be no graven images made.

He allowed the Moon to be used for observances.

He allowed the Tyrians (from Tyre and his King Hiram, David's friend) to create the Temple of Solomon. Did their presence defile the temple or not?

He allowed the crazy maniac King Herod to rebuild the Third Temple which was in use in Jesus days. I never heard Jesus objecting to the Temple even though it was rebuilt by such an impius man.

......do I need to say more?

Well, child and other forms of human sacrifice was prohibited by Yahweh. That is why Josiah destroyed Gehinnom later known as Gehenna in around 618 BC. Trash was burning there in Jesus days. So it became a metaphor for punishment. ThoughHell is not a place of fire in Jewish thought up until this time.

If Yahweh prohibited human sacrifice...Remember Abraham's sacrifice of Isaac, then why did he sacrifice his Son?

The Christian Yahwist

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), July 28, 2004.

Yes, and no, faith. He allowed the Israelites to copy Egyptian models for the Ark of the covenant. I have a picture of an Egyptian ark. It looks like the Ark of the Covenant of Moses.

How does that prove that Moses copied something from Egyptian culture? Maybe this only proves that the Egyptians don't predate God's Word or the time since Adam...and that the Egyptians copied God... I don't put much on such claims as this Elpidio....

He allowed to be called El Shaddai (and probably Sin) by Abraham and his descendants until Moses.

What does this mean?

He allowed the bronze serpent of Moses until Hezekiah destroyed it. Even though there should be no graven images made.

God commanded that we not create graven images to bow down to and worship. Are you saying that Moses worshiped a bronze serpent and that God allowed that?

He allowed the Moon to be used for observances.

There is a huge difference between astrology and astronomy.

He allowed the Tyrians (from Tyre and his King Hiram, David's friend) to create the Temple of Solomon. Did their presence defile the temple or not?

Don't know what you mean??

He allowed the crazy maniac King Herod to rebuild the Third Temple which was in use in Jesus days. I never heard Jesus objecting to the Temple even though it was rebuilt by such an impius man.

The Temple has yet to be re-built for the third time...please explain.

......do I need to say more?

Uh.., yeah...

and you could try and reconcile your belief that God allowed paganism with this:

When God called Abraham out of Ur, He called him from a region devoted to the worship of false gods, including the "queen of heaven," the mother figure of the mother/ child cult. Joshua 24 tells us:

Then Joshua assembled all the tribes of Israel at Shechem. He summoned the elders, leaders, judges and officials of Israel, and they presented themselves before God.

Joshua said to all the people, "This is what the LORD , the God of Israel, says: 'Long ago your forefathers, including Terah the father of Abraham and Nahor, lived beyond the River and worshiped other gods. But I took your father Abraham from the land beyond the River and led him throughout Canaan and gave him many descendants. I gave him Isaac, and to Isaac I gave Jacob and Esau. I assigned the hill country of Seir to Esau, but Jacob and his sons went down to Egypt.

" 'Then I sent Moses and Aaron, and I afflicted the Egyptians by what I did there, and I brought you out. When I brought your fathers out of Egypt, you came to the sea, and the Egyptians pursued them with chariots and horsemen as far as the Red Sea. But they cried to the LORD for help, and he put darkness between you and the Egyptians; he brought the sea over them and covered them. You saw with your own eyes what I did to the Egyptians. Then you lived in the desert for a long time.

" 'I brought you to the land of the Amorites who lived east of the Jordan. They fought against you, but I gave them into your hands. I destroyed them from before you, and you took possession of their land. When Balak son of Zippor, the king of Moab, prepared to fight against Israel, he sent for Balaam son of Beor to put a curse on you. But I would not listen to Balaam, so he blessed you again and again, and I delivered you out of his hand.

" 'Then you crossed the Jordan and came to Jericho. The citizens of Jericho fought against you, as did also the Amorites, Perizzites, Canaanites, Hittites, Girgashites, Hivites and Jebusites, but I gave them into your hands. I sent the hornet ahead of you, which drove them out before you-also the two Amorite kings. You did not do it with your own sword and bow. So I gave you a land on which you did not toil and cities you did not build; and you live in them and eat from vineyards and olive groves that you did not plant.'

"Now fear the LORD and serve him with all faithfulness. Throw away the gods your forefathers worshiped beyond the River and in Egypt, and serve the LORD. But if serving the LORD seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your forefathers served beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living. But as for me and my household, we will serve the LORD ."

Then the people answered, "Far be it from us to forsake the LORD to serve other gods! It was the LORD our God himself who brought us and our fathers up out of Egypt, from that land of slavery, and performed those great signs before our eyes. He protected us on our entire journey and among all the nations through which we traveled. And the LORD drove out before us all the nations, including the Amorites, who lived in the land. We too will serve the LORD , because he is our God."

Joshua said to the people, "You are not able to serve the LORD . He is a holy God; he is a jealous God. He will not forgive your rebellion and your sins. If you forsake the LORD and serve foreign gods, he will turn and bring disaster on you and make an end of you, after he has been good to you."

But the people said to Joshua, "No! We will serve the LORD ." Then Joshua said, "You are witnesses against yourselves that you have chosen to serve the LORD ."

"Yes, we are witnesses," they replied.

"Now then," said Joshua, "throw away the foreign gods that are among you and yield your hearts to the LORD , the God of Israel." And the people said to Joshua, "We will serve the LORD our God and obey him."

On that day Joshua made a covenant for the people, and there at Shechem he drew up for them decrees and laws. And Joshua recorded these things in the Book of the Law of God. ************************

-- ('faith01@myway.com"), July 28, 2004.

Elpidio asked: If Yahweh prohibited human sacrifice...Remember Abraham's sacrifice of Isaac, then why did he sacrifice his Son?

It is your claim that God "prohibited" human sacrifice. We see in Isaiah 53, that He foretold of this very thing....verses 10-12:

Yet it was the LORD's will to crush him and cause him to suffer, and though the LORD makes his life a guilt offering, he will see his offspring and prolong his days, and the will of the LORD will prosper in his hand.

After the suffering of his soul, he will see the light of life and be satisfied; by his knowledge my righteous servant will justify many, and he will bear their iniquities.

Therefore I will give him a portion among the great, and he will divide the spoils with the strong, because he poured out his life unto death, and was numbered with the transgressors. For he bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors [Jesus is Mediator].

*********************************************

I also think that when God stopped Abraham from sacrificing his son-- he established, at that moment, the idea of a substitute who would pay the price instead....

God does require that for our sin--we pay with our life. We are sentenced to death...

But instead--God has provided the final sacrificial lamb to be a substitue for us.

Gen 22:1-19:

Some time later God tested Abraham. He said to him, "Abraham!" "Here I am," he replied.

Then God said, "Take your son, your only son, Isaac, whom you love, and go to the region of Moriah. Sacrifice him there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains I will tell you about." [this was God's requirement].

Early the next morning Abraham got up and saddled his donkey. He took with him two of his servants and his son Isaac. When he had cut enough wood for the burnt offering, he set out for the place God had told him about. On the third day Abraham looked up and saw the place in the distance. He said to his servants, "Stay here with the donkey while I and the boy go over there. We will worship and then we will come back to you."

Abraham took the wood for the burnt offering and placed it on his son Isaac, and he himself carried the fire and the knife. As the two of them went on together, Isaac spoke up and said to his father Abraham, "Father?"

"Yes, my son?" Abraham replied.

"The fire and wood are here," Isaac said, "but where is the lamb for the burnt offering?"

Abraham answered, "God himself will provide the lamb for the burnt offering, my son." And the two of them went on together.

When they reached the place God had told him about, Abraham built an altar there and arranged the wood on it. He bound his son Isaac and laid him on the altar, on top of the wood. Then he reached out his hand and took the knife to slay his son. But the angel of the LORD called out to him from heaven, "Abraham! Abraham!"

"Here I am," he replied.

"Do not lay a hand on the boy," he said. "Do not do anything to him. Now I know that you fear God, because you have not withheld from me your son, your only son." [Interestingly--Isaac is refered to as Abraham's ONLY son]

Abraham looked up and there in a thicket he saw a ram caught by its horns. He went over and took the ram and sacrificed it as a burnt offering instead of his son. So Abraham called that place The LORD Will Provide. And to this day it is said, "On the mountain of the LORD it will be provided."

The angel of the LORD called to Abraham from heaven a second time and said, "I swear by myself, declares the LORD , that because you have done this and have not withheld your son, your only son, I will surely bless you and make your descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and as the sand on the seashore. Your descendants will take possession of the cities of their enemies, and through your offspring [all the faithful/ the church] all nations on earth will be blessed, because you have obeyed me."

Then Abraham returned to his servants, and they set off together for Beersheba. And Abraham stayed in Beersheba.

-- ("faith01@myway.com"), July 28, 2004.

you know elpido. i am concerned. you say you are a christian, yet you defend Islam left, right and center. The gospel of islam and that of the christian are conflicting and always will be. There will be debates such as this forever.moslems do not believe that jesus was crucified and rose from the dead. that is the foundation of our faith as christianity never mind jesus being God. See your carnal mind hardly understands the things of the spirit, because your'e trying to be logical in your understanding of who JESUS is. I did not say he is the father or the holyspirit, I said they are one(God the father, god the son, god the holy spirit)all in one. Three functions/personalities all operating together. you will never understand that because your'e too busy trying to justify that allah is Jehovah God.So instead of trying to convince you, I will pray that God gives you revelation.Now with concern of allah and Jehovah.You may say that their names are the same and all that but they are not the same.their personalities are totally different.as faith told you God made the covenant with Abraham concerning Isaac. He told Abraham to listen to his wife and get make HAGAR leave. Abraham loved Ishmae, his first born son(out of disobedience-remember Abraham took it upon himself to get HAGAR pregnant, he discussed with his wife not with God. So the father of the moslems, was in fact born out of human wanting and disobedience. Now Isaac was born in extranormanl circumstances being that Abraham's wife was too old for kids and so was Abraham himself. Isaac was a fulfilment of a promise and from him is the promise of salvation to a nation born. Our God is the father of ABRAHAM, ISAAC AND JACOB(later called israel)NOT Abraham and Ishmael. Allah the moon god is the father of him, because the koran lies and says that Allah told AbrAHAM to sacrifice Ishmael which of course never really happened because Ishmael only stayed with his dad 13 years.....So it shows as many other things in the koran, that the moslem account of history is wroooong.sO STOP CALLING YOURSELF CHRISTIAN, ELPIDO BECAUSE YOU OBVIOUSLY ARENT. YAHWEIST ARE FOLLOWERS OF ALLAH AND WHATEVER OTHER GOD BUT NOT JEHOVAH WHO MADE A COVENANT WITH ABRAHAM, ISAAC AND JACOB-THE LINEAGE OF JESUS.

-- janine fisher (general@bluebottle.com), July 29, 2004.

Most of the things you said Janine are true except these 3.

1. Yahweh is the same as Allah, that I know.

2. Jesus is not Yahweh. That I know.

3. I am a Christian because I believe Jesus is the Christ. That I know.

Do you believe Mary, to be God's mother? Well Catholics think so. Protestants don't.

catholics believe mary ascended to Heaven, she never died. Protestants believe she died.

Catholics believe Mary only had one son: Jesus. Protestants believe she had more like James, Judas, Joseph, ....

Just because one religion believes things in a certain way doesn't mean they are true.

There was also a time when Catholics burned those they considered heretics. Protestants like Luther , Henry VIII, and Calvin did the same. Even the Pilgrims who came to Massachussets did the mistreat those with different views. Remember Salem?

I have Muslim friends, Janine,yet, that doesn't mean that I agree with the way Islam is practiced.

Muslims worhip Yahweh under the name Allah. It is what they do that I also detest.

I don't approve of blowing other people up so you can get to Heaven like many Muslims do. Then think they will have 100 virgins to please them!!!I believe in one wife because thatt is the way Yahweh planned babies in a 1:1 ratio. So I don't approve of men having 4 or more wives as Muhammad did. I believe women and men are equal before Yahweh. Muslims and Orthodox Jews don't think so. In saudi Arabia they don't let women drive. They must cover their faces. I am against it. Islam has not yet done away with slavery. That is why in Sudan Muslims sell Christians and pagans as slaves.

I like the fact that Muslims don't drink and get drunk.

As for asking Yahweh to send me a revelation, Janine? Well, he has!!! First one came on July 23, 2000 directly from him, no intermediaries.

The Christian Yahwist

The Man of Yahweh

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), July 29, 2004.

Well, faith, I am using the Blue Bible. I have only changed Lord to Yahweh, its proper rendering.

As to God Yahweh having to much patience with humanity? That's the point. He is too patient. People hardly know him. How can they worship him!!!

Here, didn't Abraham pay tithes to the priest of El Shaddai, here called in translation The most High God, a Cananite God? Salem is Jerusalem. So was Abraham worshipping a foreign God or Yahweh?

Gen 14:18 And Melchizedek king of Salem brought forth bread and wine: and he [was] the priest of the most high God.

Gen 14:19 And he blessed him, and said, Blessed [be] Abram of the most high God, possessor of heaven and earth: you.

Exd 3:15 And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, Yahweh the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this [is] my name for ever, and this [is] my memorial unto all generations.

Exd 6:3 And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by [the name of] God Almighty, but by my name Yahweh was I not known to them.

As for the serpent not being worshipped? Huh!!!

Num 21:8 And Yahweh said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live.

2Ki 18:4 He removed the high places, and brake the images, and cut down the groves, and brake in pieces the brasen serpent that Moses had made: for unto those days the children of Israel did burn incense to it: and he called it Nehushtan. Solomon desires to build a temple to Yahweh.

1Ki 5:5 And, behold, I purpose to build an house unto the name of Yahweh my God, as Yahweh spoke unto David my father, saying, Thy son, whom I will set upon thy throne in thy room, he shall build an house unto my name.

Now solomon asks Hiram the King of Tyre for help in building the temple of Yahweh.

1Ki 5:6 Now therefore command thou that they hew me cedar trees out of Lebanon; and my servants shall be with thy servants: and unto thee will I give hire for thy servants according to all that thou shalt appoint: for thou knowest that [there is] not among us any that can skill to hew timber like unto the Sidonians.

So foreigners were used to build Yahweh's temple.

As to the third Temple not yet been built: There is Solomon's Temple from about 973 BC. That's one. There is Zerubabel's temple, that's two,... from around 512 BC, so small, that people cried when they remember ed that of Solomon.

Zec 4:9 The hands of Zerubbabel have laid the foundation of this house; his hands shall also finish it; and thou shalt know that the LORD of hosts hath sent me unto you.

Then there is Herod's Temple. That's three. It didn't matter to Jesus it was built by Herod. He still got so angry he made a whip a chased people out of it.

Jhn 2:15 And when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers' money, and overthrew the tables; Jhn 2:20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days

So construction of this amplified temple began then by 20/10 BC.

What you are talking about is the one from Revelation. That could be a 4th.

Don't you think Yahweh our God got tired already of being confused with other Gods, even jesus, faith?

The Christian Yahwist

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), July 29, 2004.

Wow Elpidio--I hardly know how to respond. It is like we speak different languages. Most of what you said makes absolutely no sense to me at all.

I will simply respond to the few things I think I could grasp from your post.

You posted:

Jhn 2:15 And when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers' money, and overthrew the tables; Jhn 2:20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days.

I am not really sure what this has to do with the fact that the Temple on the Temple Mount has yet to be built for the third time-- I would like to point out that it was rebuilt only for the second time when Jesus was here.. It had been re-built in 515 B.C...Solomon had built the first Temple on that site almost 1,000 years earlier.

This Temple--God's house, was being misused by money-changers. They had forgotten that God's Temple was a place for worship., not a place for making a profit. Jesus was rightfully angry at those who came to exploit people who were there to worship God.

When Jesus said "Destroy this Temple, and I will raise it again in three days"., He of course was not refering to the Temple of stone that He had just chased the money-changers from. He was prophesying about His pending crucifixion and resurrection. He was talking about His body.

Have you considered Jesus' words from Matthew 24?:

"Watch out that no one deceives you. For many will come in my name, claiming, 'I am the Christ,' and will deceive many.

You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come.

Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. All these are the beginning of birth pains. "Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people.

Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come. "So when you see standing in the holy place 'the abomination that causes desolation,' spoken of through the prophet Daniel--let the reader understand-- then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. Let no one on the roof of his house go down to take anything out of the house. Let no one in the field go back to get his cloak.

How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath. For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now--and never to be equaled again.

If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened. At that time if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ!' or, 'There he is!' do not believe it. For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect--if that were possible.

See, I have told you ahead of time. "So if anyone tells you, 'There he is, out in the desert,' do not go out; or, 'Here he is, in the inner rooms,' do not believe it. For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. ****************************

In other words Elpidio., Jesus will not be making private visits..., those are false Christs... Jesus says that when He returns--everyone will see Him.

-- ("faith01@myway.com"), July 29, 2004.

Well, faith, we are only human.

Yes, there was a third Temple in Jerusalem built by Herod 19 BC-26 AD. That is what John and Josephus talk about.

Theere was another one at Samaria destroyed by the Maccabees around 160 BC, and another one by Jews in Egypt by Elephantine. Lso destroyed.

As long as Jesus doesn't say anything that tries to lure me away fromn the truth, I know is him, faith.

The Christian Yahwist

The Man of Yahweh

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), July 30, 2004.

Elpidio--there is only one Temple Mount and there have been only two Temples built on it thus far.

Temple Mount News

Right now the Muslims are there.

A third Temple is prophesied for the end times...but so far., there is nothing built.

See, I have told you ahead of time. "So if anyone tells you, 'There he is, out in the desert,' do not go out; or, 'Here he is, in the inner rooms,' do not believe it. For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.

Jesus has instructed us not to believe it if someone says they have seen the Christ--or heard from him....because He won't be making house calls or anything. He said that when He returns--we will all know it.

Also--no Jesus is the true Jesus who would come to you right now-- read the Bible!

The only way to know truth is to know God's Word.

-- ("faith01@myway.com"), July 30, 2004.

No mention of a third Temple, faith.

Salomon's-# one, Zerubbabel # 2, Herod's was #3 in Jerusalem.

And yes, there was a Temple of Yahweh in Yeb, now known as Elephantine, in Egypt and another one in Sichem, in samaria.

Both manned by Jews. Elephantine

The following excerpt taken from: Temples in Elephantine and Smaria

If either the story of Ezra bringing the book of the Law of God to Jerusalem (Ezra 7.11-26) or the story of Ezra reading the Law to the congregation in Jerusalem fourteen years later (Neh. 8-10) is to be taken as the publication of the Law, can either be taken as the canonization of the Law? It seems unlikely that the authority of Deuteronomy (von Rad 1962) was universally recognized in Judaism4 or that the Law had been canonized when the Jews in Elephantine (an island in the Nile facing Assuan) built a temple to God (Yahu or Yaho) in the sixth century B.C.E.5 Nor is it likely that the Law had been canonized when the Jewish inhabitants asked permission from Jerusalem in 408 to rebuild the Jewish Elephantine temple after its destruction.6 These circumstances define the earliest date after which the Law can have been canonized, the terminus a quo. Thus, the canonization of the Law can hardly have been before 400 B.C.E.

On the other hand, the Law clearly had been canonized before the writing of Chronicles about 250 B.C.E,7in which the Law is regarded as revealed to Moses8 and also before it was translated into Greek (the Septuagint or LXX),9 about 250 B.C.E. The date of the Samaritan schism possibly could be helpful, since the Samaritans accepted only the Law as their canon, presumably antedating the Prophets canon. However, the date of the Samaritan separation from Judaism is equivocal. The Chronicler apparently puts the date of separation in the time of Nehemiah (432 B.C.E.; Neh. 13.28 f.).10 However, Josephus, the first century C.E. Jewish historian, probably correctly, dates the building of the Samaritan temple on Mt. Garizim a century later, in the time of Alexander the Great.11

Taken from this site.

Again on the temples in Elephantine and samaria

WHAT WAS A JEWISH TEMPLE DOING ON THE NILE ISLAND OF ELEPHANTINE?

The evidence of this colony is thanks to the discovery of a large number of 5th cent. Aramaic papyri.

This community, whose beginnings may have even predated the Babylonian exile & was possibly put there by one of the Egyptian pharaohs of the 26th dynasty, probably reflected the reality of pre- exilic Judaism far more accurately than the romantic idealisation of Ezra’s returned Babylonian exiles. It might also have become a military colony or garrison put there by the Persians, or at least was known to favour the Persian rulers as it seems to have disappeared when the Egyptians gained their independence in 400 BCE, even after they acknowledged the ruling Egyptian king, Amyrtaeus on June 19th of that year.

These papyri include correspondence seeking permission for them to build, or rather replace a replica of the Temple on Elephantine Island originally destroyed by an Egyptian mob because they sacrificed an animal sacred to them, namely the ram. They were allowed to rebuild their temple, possibly even larger then the one in Jerusalem, provided they did not carry out animal sacrifices. Like Sanballat & Tobiah, & their successors (who supported their request) they appeared to have been perfectly pious Yahwistic Jews, but also had shrines to Ashtarte & other gods in their temple, & had no problem in marrying foreign wives.

THE SAMARITAN GENESIS.

Just before Alexander’s takeover, Sanballat III’s daughter, Nikaso, married Manasseh, the high priest Jadua’s brother. The Jerusalem authorities objected, forcing Manasseh to choose between the priesthood & his wife. Manasseh chose Sanballat’s offer to be the high priest of the new temple to be built on a hill, Mt. Gerizim close to the site of the old Israelite city of Samaria, North of Jerusalem, with the permission of the Persian governor. For this reason they became known as the Samaritans. Many Jewish priests, tired of the Jerusalem authorities’ intolerance, joined them. About 300 Samaritans still live in this area today. They still make animal sacrifices & have their own version of the Bible, consisting of the Pentateuch & Joshua, (& identifying Mount Gerizim as the location of the giving of the Torah).

So faith, ...you can have your own conclusion.

The Christian Yahwist

The Man of Yahweh

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), August 02, 2004.

To change from solar to lunar.

< a href="http://www.mashiach6000.org/html/computer.html"> Change to a lunar calendar

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), August 02, 2004.

There is only one temple and one temple mount, Elpidio.

Right now--no Jewish temple exists on that mount.

We know a third temple is prophesied because the endtimes call for sacrifice again...therefore., there will need to be an altar once again.

-- ("faith01@myway.com"), August 03, 2004.

Here is some Temple Mount news that people around the world are discussing...this is a post from a friend of mine:

In just decades, Jews will fulfill Dan 9:27!

On Tisha B'Av, 5764 (2004), The Temple Mount Faithful Movement Carried 2 Cornerstones for the Third Temple Around the walls of Biblical Jerusalem and Through the Main Streets of Downtown Jerusalem They marched to the Temple Mount with a model of the Temple and read the Book of Lamentations.

Yesterday, on the Shabbat after Tisha B'Av, all the synagogues in Israel read the weekly Torah portion from Deuteronomy and afterwards the exciting prophecy of comfort from Isaiah.

“Comfort my people, comfort them, says your God. Speak comfortably to Jerusalem, and cry to her, that her fighting is ended, that her iniquity is pardoned; for she has received from the Lord's hand double for all her sins. A voice cries, Prepare in the wilderness the way of the Lord, make straight in the desert a highway for our God. ... And the glory of the Lord shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together; for the mouth of the Lord has spoken it. ... You who bring good news to Zion, get up to the high mountain; You who bring good news to Jerusalem, lift up your voice with strength; lift it up, be not afraid; say to the cities of Judah, Behold your God! Behold, the Lord God will come with strong hand, and his arm shall rule for him; behold, his reward is with him, and his hire before him. He shall feed his flock like a shepherd; he shall gather the lambs with his arm, and carry them in his bosom, and shall gently lead those that are with young.” (Isaiah40:1-3,5,9-11)

Tisha B’Av (27/07/04) is the day commemorating the destruction of the First Temple in 586 BCE and the Second Temple in 70CE. Despite the fact that it was a fast day when everyone in Israel read the Book of Lamentations sitting on the ground mourning the destruction of both Temples, the deep feeling was that we are living at the time of this comfort. Both Isaiah and Jeremiah prophesied the destruction of the Temples and Jeremiah also wrote the book of Lamentations. But they also prophesied the comfort and rebuilding of the Temple. Both prophesied of the time in which we are now living which they called the end-times. The focus of all these end-time prophecies of comfort is the redemption of the people and land of Israel, the regathering of the Jewish people to the land of Israel which G–d gave them in an eternal covenant, the rebirth of the people and land of Israel, the rebuilding of the temple and the coming of Mashiach ben David to Jerusalem. The exciting prayers of Rachel, one of the 2 mothers of the Israeli people, which were prayed in the last 2000 years of destruction were answered by the G–d of Israel:

“Thus says the Lord; A voice was heard in Ramah, lamentation, and bitter weeping; Rachel weeping for her children refused to be comforted for her children, because they were not. Thus says the Lord; Refrain your voice from weeping, and your eyes from tears; for your work shall be rewarded, says the Lord; and they shall come again from the land of the enemy. And there is hope for your future, says the Lord, that your children shall come again to their own border.” (Jeremiah31:14-16)

In 1948, and even earlier, these prayers of our mother and the prayers of the prophets and the people of Israel started to be answered by the G–d of Israel in such an exciting way before all the nations as G–d promised. Like a fast stream of water the children of Rachel and Leah began to be regathered to the land of Israel. It was an exciting godly event of the rebirth of the people and land of Israel. Waste cities and villages in the land were rebuilt and small Israeli children are playing in the streets of Jerusalem as Zechariah prophesied.

“Again the word of the Lord of hosts came to me, saying, Thus says the Lord of hosts; I was zealous for Zion with great zeal, and I was zealous for her with great fury. Thus says the Lord: I have returned to Zion, and will dwell in the midst of Jerusalem; and Jerusalem shall be called the City of Truth; and the mountain of the Lord of hosts the Holy Mountain. Thus says the Lord of hosts: Old men and old women shall again dwell in the streets of Jerusalem, and every man with his staff in his hand for the fullness of days. And the streets of the city shall be full of boys and girls playing in its streets.” (Zechariah81-5)

Jeremiah expressed the redemptional plan of G–d with Israel in the end-times in such beautiful words:

“The fierce anger of the Lord shall not return, until he has done it, and until he has performed the intents of his heart; in the latter days you shall consider it. At the same time, says the Lord, will I be the God of all the families of Israel, and they shall be my people. Thus says the Lord, The people who survived the sword found grace in the wilderness; when Israel sought for rest. The Lord has appeared to me, far away, saying, I have loved you with an everlasting love; therefore I have remained true to you. Again I will build you, and you shall be built, O virgin of Israel; you shall again be adorned with your tambourines, and shall go out dancing with those who make merry. You shall yet plant vines upon the mountains of Samaria; the planters shall plant, and shall enjoy the fruit. For there shall be a day, when the watchmen upon Mount Ephraim shall cry, Arise, and let us go up to Zion to the Lord our God. For thus says the Lord; Sing with gladness for Jacob, and shout on the hilltops of the nations; proclaim, praise, and say, O Lord, save your people, the remnant of Israel. Behold, I will bring them from the north country, and gather them from the ends of the earth, and with them the blind and the lame, the woman with child and she who labours with child together; a great company shall return there. They shall come weeping, and with supplications will I lead them; I will make them walk by the rivers of waters in a straight way, where they shall not stumble; for I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is my firstborn. Hear the word of the Lord, O you nations, and declare it in the islands far away, and say, He who scattered Israel will gather him, and keep him, like a shepherd keeps his flock. For the Lord has redeemed Jacob, and ransomed him from the hand of him who was stronger than he. Therefore they shall come and sing in the height of Zion, and shall flow to the goodness of the Lord, for wheat, and for wine, and for oil, and for the young of the flock and of the herd; and their soul shall be like a watered garden; and they shall not languish in sorrow any more. Then shall the virgin rejoice in the dance, both young men and old together; for I will turn their mourning to joy, and will comfort them, and make them rejoice from their sorrow. And I will satiate the soul of the priests with fatness, and my people shall be satisfied with my goodness, says the Lord.” (Jeremiah30:24-31:13)

The climax of these times in which we are now living in Israel was prophesied by Micah, Isaiah and others.

“But in the last days it shall come to pass, that the mountain of the house of the Lord shall be established in the top of the mountains, and it shall be exalted above the hills; and people shall flow to it. And many nations shall come, and say, Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, and to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths; for Torah shall go forth from Zion, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem. And he shall judge between many peoples, and shall decide concerning far away strong nations; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks; nation shall not lift up sword against nation, nor shall they learn war any more. But they shall sit every man under his vine and under his fig tree; and none shall make them afraid; for the mouth of the Lord of hosts has spoken it.” (Micah4:1-4)

The Temple Mount and Land of Israel Faithful Movement carries this key event in the redemptional process of Israel as the focus of its godly and historical campaign. The complete redemption of Israel and the godly end time revolution all over the world will not come to pass until the end-time house of G–d, the eternal house of G–d is built. We heard the call of G–d to make this vision a reality in our lifetime and we have answered it over the past 30 years since the liberation of the Temple Mount and Biblical Jerusalem by the soldiers of G–d, the forces of Israel. This campaign will not stop until this vision comes to pass. We know that time is short and nothing can stop this vision and the end-time vessel of G–d, the Faithful Movement, from making it a reality soon in our lifetime.

On Tisha B’Av The Temple Mount Faithful Movement took an important step towards this fulfilment when in the early morning of 27th July 2004 we carried 2 large marble cornerstones (each of 6½ tonnes) around the walls of Biblical Jerusalem and through the streets of downtown Jerusalem. The cornerstones were cut according to Biblical law not by the use of iron or other metal instruments but by diamond cutters. They were carried on a large truck. Banners informed Jerusalem in large Hebrew letters that these were the cornerstones for the Third Temple. The flags of Israel with the Star of David and the Temple flags of the Faithful Movement covered the top of the stones like a “chuppah”. As a bride is taken to her marriage under a chuppah, the holiness and the Chekinah of the G–d of Israel covered these 2 stones which soon, after 1934 years, were again seen in the city of G–d and His Temple, the eternal capital of the G–d and people of Israel. Godly history was made by the Faithful Movement at this moment. We felt the presence of the G–d of Israel and His holiness all over the streets where the cornerstones were carried. For almost 2000 years the G–d and people of Israel longed and desired to see this event in the rebuilt Jerusalem. This exciting morning made it a reality despite the fact that the cornerstones could not be laid on the Temple Mount in the same location of the First and Second Temples because of fear on the part of the Israeli Authorities of Arab reaction and the pressure that comes from all the world. We knew that time is so short and soon all the walls and obstacles will fall and disappear like dust in the wind as the G–d of Israel promised again and again through all His prophets, We felt that the encouragement of G–d and His blessing through Zechariah were coming to pass on that morning and will soon be completed on Mt. Moriah.

“Thus says the Lord of hosts: Let your hands be strong, you who hear in these days these words by the mouth of the prophets, who spoke on the day that the foundation of the house of the Lord of hosts was laid, saying that the temple might be built.” (Zechariah8:9)

In the midst of all the sorrow, the fast and the mourning for the destruction of the First and Second Temples, we felt on this morning that another promise of the G–d of Israel started to be fulfilled when He promised that all the fasts for the destruction of the Temple and others would become days of joy.

“And the word of the Lord of hosts came to me, saying, Thus says the Lord of hosts: The fast of the fourth month, and the fast of the fifth, and the fast of the seventh, and the fast of the tenth, shall become times of joy and gladness, and cheerful feasts to the house of Judah; therefore love truth and peace.” (Zechariah 8:18,19)

One day, when the history of these exciting godly days of redemption will be written, this godly end-time event will be in the focus of it and will be considered as the first step, the opening, of the building of the end-time Temple.

After the event of the cornerstones, the Temple Mount Faithful and many Israelis who joined them, marched to the Temple Mount together with a model of the Third Temple which they carried as a clear message to the G–d of Israel that we are faithful to His vision and call to immediately rebuild His house and as a message to Israel that we are ready to do it and to make it a reality in the life of this generation and as a message to all the world that nothing can prevent it and that no pressure from the world can stop the Word of G–d and His determination to make this vision a reality. Despite the fact that the Temple Mount was closed by the Israeli Authorities, unfortunately as a sign of weakness and fear of possible Arab reaction and riot, our spirit and determination to make this vision of G–d a reality were inside the Temple Mount. Like Joshua who circled the walls of Jericho seven time and blew the shofars until the walls fell, we continued to circle the walls of hostility on the Temple Mount until they will fall.

Thanks to the G–d Israel they really started to fall when He answered our marches and demonstrations on the Temple Mount and created an earthquake in February this year and as a result of it a huge crack appeared along the eastern wall of the Temple Mount including the location of the Golden Gate through which Mashiach ben David will enter. Another large bulge appeared on the southern wall from where millions of Israeli pilgrims entered the Temple Mount. One of the walls in the Western Wall area collapsed and pieces of stone started to fall even from the Western Wall where Jews pray today. Engineers have stated that the walls cannot be repeatedly repaired for a long time and will eventually collapse. It is so important to share what I heard together with all the people of Israel that in the near future another major earthquake, which will be much stronger that the one in February will occur in Israel and the focus of it will be on the Temple Mount. What is even more exciting is that as a result of the February earthquake, no building in Israel was damaged besides the roof of the Dome of the Rock and the ceiling of the office of Prime Minister Ariel Sharon in the Knesset. It was a clear message of G–d to the Arabs and Moslems to leave the Temple Mount sooner than even it is possible before He will do it in a terrible day of Judgement on them. It was also a clear message to Prime Minister Sharon to answer the call of G–d, not to fear anyone in the world but only to trust the G—d of Israel to remove the enemy of the G—d and people of Israel from Mt. Moriah and to purify the Temple Mount and to rebuild the house of G–d.

In front of the eastern (Mugrabe) gate of the Temple Mount the chairman of the Faithful Movement, Gershon Salomon, called on Prime Minister Sharon to accept and answer this message and not to miss the great privilege that G–d gave him to be a real leader of His people, to rebuild His Temple, not to give in to the pressure that comes from all the world to give the Biblical Jerusalem of Israel and other Biblical areas in the land to the Arab enemies of the G—d and people of Israel, so-called “Palestinians” and not to establish a so- called “Palestinian” state or any other foreign state in the holy land that G–d gave only to Israel for a godly purpose in an eternal covenant. He called on Sharon to open the gates of the Temple Mount to the cornerstones. He told him that only the rebuilding of the Temple will create a real peace when the enemies of Israel are removed from any part of the holy land and a godly peace will also come to all the world. He called on the people of Israel to stop praying near the Western Wall which is a sign of destruction and exile and to immediately start the worship only on the Temple Mount.

Before the G—d of Israel, on His holy hill, he and all the Faithful Movement and the crowd swore in the name of all the people of Israel and its wonderful friends all over the world, never to stop the godly campaign of the Movement to rebuild the house of G–d which will open the gate for the coming of Mashiach ben David, and to make Israel a Biblical nation with a Biblical mission as G–d anointed and dedicated them to be. We swore never to forget but to be completely faithful to the covenant that the G—d of Israel made with His people Israel and the holy land which He gave to them.

-- ("faith01@myway.com"), August 03, 2004.

I have personally met and listened to Gershon Salomon. My thoughts are that he has a movement, alright. He wants to rebuild the "temple". I do wonder what he is actually meaning when he says "temple". Gershon Salomon said that prophecy is being fulfilled and it is only a matter of time before we see the "temple" built during our lifetime. He actually has the cornerstones sitting on a flatbed waiting for their placement. But, what does he mean by "rebuilding"? He makes it very clear that the enemy is "stupid". Does "rebuilding" mean reinforcing the Israeli armie so that the Palestinians can be decimated with bullets, bombs, and violence?

What really bothered me about Gershon Salomon and his movement was his talk about the joining of Christianity and Semitism. His words were that "we have the same God" (He said "God"). Gershon Salomon is really saying that Christians and Jews are waiting for the Messiah, whether it is the first or second comming of Christ. For Gershon Salomon it is irrelevant as to the Messiah being Christian or Jewish. What he is really saying is for Jews and Christians to forget their beliefs, doctrines, and theologies in order to become ONE nation. People, I hear one crying in the wilderness by the name of Gershon Salomon who is preaching a different gospel. Remember, Gershon Salomon is an ex-military officer in the Israeli army. He was run over by a tank. He claims that the Palestinians surrounded him on the battle field and had the perfect chance to execute him. Except, Gershon Salomon was surrounded by Angels. The Angels protected him and caused the enemy to run away in fear. Gershon Salomon survived the tank backing up over him and the enemy confrontation. His son is also an Israeli soldier.

I heard what Gershon Salomon had to say and I also held the door to the van as he boarded it for his trip to the airport. I'm not sold on his movement just quite yet. Sorry.

.....

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), August 03, 2004.

The purpose of my posting this was to show Elpidio that there is a specific temple and a temple mount--from the Bible., that has been built twice so far in history. A third Temple is needed for end-time prohhecy to be fulfilled.

I think the endtime prophecy called "Jacob's Trouble" or the "Tribulation" period will deal with the nation of Israel-- *unbelieving* Israel--who will be judged during this time..,acoording to Scripture.

-- ("faith01@myway.com"), August 03, 2004.

Gershon Salomon claims to be called by God to fulfill that prophecy.

My only reason for posting is to refute the idea that Gershon Salomon is he who will rebuild the temple. Where is it prophecied that Jews and Christians will become one nation when the Jews will not accept the second comming of Christ or the Christians accept that Christ was never here until the rebuilding of the temple?

Elpidio may refute the temple controversy; that isn't my issue.

...................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), August 03, 2004.

Don't forget rod--Israel and the Jews are *unbelieving.*

This is why they will be judged. Messiah already came and they rejected Him.

It doesn't matter what Gershon Salomon says or thinks. He is an unbeliever and will face judgement according to Scripture. There will need to be a Temple on the Temple Mount before the end-time prophecies are fulfilled and the Jews are judged.

The church will not face this judgement because we are already judged innocent in Christ. There is no longer any condemnation for those who are in Christ. That is what the Bible says.

You asked:

Where is it prophecied that Jews and Christians will become one nation when the Jews will not accept the second comming of Christ or the Christians accept that Christ was never here until the rebuilding of the temple?

The Bible does not reveal that anywhere, rod. What I think happens is that the Jews will mistake the Antichrist for their long awaited Messiah. He sets himself up as God on the Temple Mount and demands to be worshiped. I think many Jews will be impressed when he seemingly dies from a wound to the head and then rises--according to Scripture. They will be convinced that he is their Messiah:

Rev. 13:12-17

He exercised all the authority of the first beast on his behalf, and made the earth and its inhabitants worship the first beast, whose fatal wound had been healed. And he performed great and miraculous signs, even causing fire to come down from heaven to earth in full view of men. Because of the signs he was given power to do on behalf of the first beast, he deceived the inhabitants of the earth. He ordered them to set up an image in honor of the beast who was wounded by the sword and yet lived. He was given power to give breath to the image of the first beast, so that it could speak and cause all who refused to worship the image to be killed. He also forced everyone, small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on his right hand or on his forehead, so that no one could buy or sell unless he had the mark, which is the name of the beast or the number of his name.

The church will not be present for this time of Jacob's Trouble, the Tribulation., they came out of it. According to Scripture:

Rev. 7:13

Then one of the elders asked me, "These in white robes--who are they, and where did they come from?" I answered, "Sir, you know." And he said, "These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Therefore, "they are before the throne of God and serve him day and night in his temple; and he who sits on the throne will spread his tent over them. Never again will they hunger; never again will they thirst. The sun will not beat upon them, nor any scorching heat. For the Lamb at the center of the throne will be their shepherd; he will lead them to springs of living water. And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes."

-- ("faith01@myway.com"), August 03, 2004.

Then, if we are to interpret prophecy correctly, the powerful nation of Christians--America--will be the force that will aid the Israelies. America is the force that will have a role--a Christian role. I've often wondered why in the world Americans subsidize the Israeli campaign of war knowing that the Israelies/Jews are in disbelief. Well, that's because the Palestians are the Palestinians, I suppose.

(...crawling back to by cave.)

....................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), August 03, 2004.

rod--I edited my response above., so please re-read it. I added to it because I hadn't answered you completely. I do not think that America represents the church., though I do think that America will pretty much disappear at the time of the rapture...

-- ("faith01@myway.com"), August 03, 2004.

Revelations is too nebulous for me to interpret accurately. So, I'll just observe.

..........................

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), August 03, 2004.

Of all the books in the Bible--Revelation is probably the most important book for understanding the end-time events.

I wouldn't ignore it out of fear of not being able to understand.

I myself took on extra study to be sure to have a complete picture of what God is revealing to us.

-- ("faith01@myway.com"), August 03, 2004.

"I've often wondered why in the world Americans subsidize the Israeli campaign of war knowing that the Israelies/Jews are in disbelief." - rod

"I will bless those who bless you, and the one who curses you I will curse."

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), August 03, 2004.

Yes, David, I am aquainted with that Scripture, but do you really think that Americans deliberately with clear understanding adhere to that Scripture? I sense that America is clueless. I think that if we were true, we would do more than what has been done to date. But, still the irony continues. Are Christians supporting a nation that has denied Christ' first arrival as the true Messiah? Very evidently, yes.

............

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), August 03, 2004.

Thanks for the Info, Rod on Gershon Salomon .

I think there is people that claim a higher contact with God Yahweh than me. I wonder what Samuel, Elijah, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Miacaiah, John the baptist, ... Peter, James, Paul, had to say about it. All of them suffered. Some were imprisoned, killed, persecuted,....In my case I have been sick most of my life. Even Paul complained to jesus of a wound he had in his body i 2 Corinthians. he calls it a thorn in the flesh.

A ypur second sentence to faith on the third temple: Elpidio may refute the temple controversy

Here is my final reply on this subject:

From Josephus Antiquities of the Jews, on finds the building of Tempplwe #3, Faith.

Excerpt taken from here Josephus- Antiquities

CHAPTER 11.

HOW HEROD REBUILT THE TEMPLE AND RAISED IT HIGHER AND MADE IT MORE MAGNIFICENT THAN IT WAS BEFORE; AS ALSO CONCERNING THAT TOWER WHICH HE CALLED ANTONIA. faith, Herod rebuilt the Temple of Zerubbalel 19BC-27 AD. The corresponds to John's 46 years.

1. AND now Herod, in the eighteenth year of his reign, and after the acts already mentioned, undertook a very great work, that is, to build of himself the temple of God, (22) and make it larger in compass, and to raise it to a most magnificent altitude, as esteeming it to be the most glorious of all his actions, as it really was, to bring it to perfection; and that this would be sufficient for an everlasting memorial of himSo Herod took away the old foundations, and laid others, and erected the temple upon them, being in length a hundred cubits, and in height twenty additional cubits, which [twenty], upon the sinking of their foundations (23) fell down; and this part it was that we resolved to raise again in the days of Nero ....6. But the temple itself was built by the priests in a year and six months; upon which all the people were full of joy; and presently they returned thanks, in the first place, to God; and in the next place, for the alacrity the king had showed. They feasted and celebrated this rebuilding of the temple: and for the king, he sacrificed three hundred oxen to God, as did the rest every one according to his ability ...... Compare it with John:

Jhn 2:20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?

The Christian Yahwist

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), August 03, 2004.

rod--

That's how prophecy works. It is right whether we work in accordance with it or not.

I don't think that today's *America* in the secular mode realizes *why* we support Israel. But it is because this country is founded by biblical people--and it is because biblical people run the country-- that we do support Israel and continue to do so, even when the Democrats are in office.

It is a supporting of democracy--[something revealed in the Scriptures--even though most don't realize it]-- that drives us to support Israel now.

You asked:

Are Christians supporting a nation that has denied Christ' first arrival as the true Messiah? Very evidently, yes.

This is the reason Israel will be judged during the Tribulation of the end-times. She is still God's chosen nation--and everything that God promised will come to pass where Israel is concerned. America is not consciously supporting *unbelieving* Israel--as I said--we are supporting democracy. ............

-- ("faith01@myway.com"), August 03, 2004.

Elpidio?

Jesus is refering to his body---

The Temple that Jesus was chasing the money changers out of--was the second Temple on that location. It was destroyed and has not been rebuilt again.

-- ("faith01@myway.com), August 03, 2004.

I have found that both the Christian society and the Muslim society alike are both filled with arrogance and pride. They both put themselves above those who choose to be different from them and try to use guilt as a tool to gain control of other peoples lives. Both constantly debate and put the other down as stupid etc... Why would I want to become a part of either?

-- worthless person (outkast@cox-internet.com), March 13, 2005.

It would be both wrong and stupid to become part of something wrong and stupid. Obviously, such a place is not the right place. So, you would do fine in seperating yourself from them. Just as they seperate themselves from others, you should do the same. Do you see the problem with beliefs and conflicts?

There are places where people are humble and accepting of others, but eventually they must adhere to their faith and doctrine/obedience.

.......

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), March 14, 2005.

I have found that both the Christian society and the Muslim society alike are both filled with arrogance and pride. They both put themselves above those who choose to be different from them and try to use guilt as a tool to gain control of other peoples lives. Both constantly debate and put the other down as stupid etc... Why would I want to become a part of either?

As opposed to Ahtietss who are freehtinkers and tolernet... just ask everyone in the soviet Union...

The problem is not "The Christain faith" or "The Muslim Faith" but human pride and arrogance.

No matter what the beleif, no matter what the rleigion, no matter what the society, their is alwats some pride and arrogance maoing the general populace. heck, Americans are thoguth of as prideful and arrogant by most of the world. why woidl anyone want ot be an american?

British peoepl are also known for pride and arogance ( Outside of ocurs eof Brittain) So are french, italians, and sanish people.

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), March 14, 2005.

rleiginwise I have met arrigant jekrks who where Buddhists. I have met loathesme, dishinest Hindu's. I have met pretentious "Better than thou" Ba'hi's.

This doesnt disprve the theologies of the variosu gorups, it only prives that Humanity tends to be arrogant and self centred, makign presumptuous, ignorant claism abotu others.

Look ar Bill Heyher, he basiclaly trashes anyone who beleives in any rleigion. Hes an arrogant jerk. So are a lot of secular Humanists.

so , basiclaly, no matter what tyoyr beleifs are, even Atheistic, you are goign to have to put up withthe arrogance and poride. Atheists iek to say thet are "Freehtinkers" and "think for themselves' and ar so prceful that they actulaly cai they ar smarter tha anyone else n th planet. ( No joke, go to secular web and find out.)

So, saying " I wont be a Chrisain because they are too arrogant and prideful" pretty well leaves yo no option but formign yor own religion. That asusmes of coruse you yourself arent suceptable to arrogance and price...

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), March 14, 2005.

There is a third choice, worthless, the Way-The Church of YHWH in Christ Jesus. We take in Christians,.... Unitarians, Muslims, Budhitsts, Bahais, Atheists,...

The Christian Yahwist

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), March 14, 2005.

But int he end,even "The way' wll fond arorgance and pride, as do all Human enterprises...

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), March 14, 2005.