Does the idea for "purgatory" have any basis in truth?

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), August 05, 2003

Answers

For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing" (Ecclesiastes 9:5 RSV)

"For the fate of the sons of men and the fate of beasts is the same; as one dies, so dies the other. They all have the same breath, and man has no advantage over the beasts; for all is vanity. All go to one place; all are from the dust, and all turn to dust again." (Ecclesiastes 3:19-20 RSV)

"Brethren, I may say to you confidently of the patriarch David that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day.... For David did not ascend into the heavens" (Acts 2:29,34 RSV)

"No one has ascended into heaven but He who descended from heaven, the Son of man." (John 3:13 RSV)

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), August 05, 2003.

But in fact Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who have fallen asleep. For as by a man came death, by a man has come also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive. But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, then at His coming those who belong to Christ." (1 Corinthians 15:20-23 RSV)

"Thy dead shall live, their bodies shall rise. O dwellers in the dust, awake and sing for joy!" (Isaiah 26:19 RSV)

"But we would not have you ignorant, brethren, concerning those who are asleep, that you may not grieve as others do who have no hope. For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep. For this we declare to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, shall not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the archangel's call, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first; then we who are alive, who are left, shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet The Lord in the air; and so we shall always be with The Lord." (1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 RSV)

"Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom judgment was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony to Jesus and for the word of God, and who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life, and reigned with Christ a thousand years. The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he who shares in the first resurrection! Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and they shall reign with him a thousand years." (Revelation 20:4-6 RSV)

"for the hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear His voice and come forth, those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of judgment." (John 5:28-29 RSV)

"And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt." (Daniel 12:2 RSV)

"Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it; from His presence earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for them. And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Also another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, by what they had done. And the sea gave up the dead in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead in them, and all were judged by what they had done. Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire; and if any one's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire." (Revelation 20:11-15 RSV)

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), August 05, 2003.

David, I know this issue has been hashed and rehashed over at the Catholic forum. But just to set the record straight for my Protestant brothers and sisters, the Catholic Church teaches that all BELIEVERS, after death, will be finally and completely purified. It is more the "state of being purified" rather than a place, as we so often think of it. The Church does not claim to know how long this purification process will take.

Here is the pertinent part from the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

1031. "The Church gives the name PURGATORY to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned. The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on PURGATORY especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire:[Cf. 1 Cor 3:15 ; 1 Pet 1:7 .] As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come. [Matthew 12:31] "

David, if not purgatory (the state of purging) I would like to know what you believe happens to our carnal, sinful natures after death. Do we take our sin natures into His presence?

Gail

P.S. Purgatory is also mentioned in Macabees, which was taken out of the Bible at the Reformation by the Reformers.

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), August 05, 2003.

"You were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God" (1 Corinthians 6:11

"the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin" (1 John 1:7)

"Unto Him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in His own blood, and hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father, to Him be glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen" (Revelation 1:5,6).

"When He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high" (Hebrews 1:3).

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), August 05, 2003.

Macabees is not The inspired Word of God.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), August 05, 2003.

Purgatory is another invention the Catholic Church used in order to extract (money - indulgences) from their members.

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), August 05, 2003.

"Macabees is not the inspired Word of God" Says WHO?

David, please give me a yes or no answer to this question. Do you still have a sin nature?

Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), August 05, 2003.

Even the Protestants kept their Bibles intact for the longest time. I actually held the Revised New Translation of the KJV from 1884 that had the Deuteroconical Books. I think that everyone should read these books.

rod..

..

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), August 05, 2003.

rod,

They merely kept the false writings in there as historical documents, that's why they got rid of them later because people would mistake them for inspired.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), August 05, 2003.

That's right Rod, they were phased out over a period of several hundred years. At least these kept the New Testament books, though Luther objected to several of them.

Gail (the Gal)

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), August 05, 2003.

I don't care what Luther wanted to do, the FACT IS he didn't remove any of them. God has kept his word perserved and intact.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), August 05, 2003.

Another thing, why do Catholics insist on making Luther the Father of protestantism? All he was was an instrument of God, to bring the people back to the fundamentals and away from the heresy the Catholic church made, and still has today.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), August 05, 2003.

The Third Council of Carthage

The Third Council of Carthage was not a general council but a regional council of African bishops, much under the influence of Augustine. Text is translated by Bruce Metzger (Protestant)

Canon 24. Besides the canonical Scriptures (listed below), nothing shall be read in church under the name of divine Scriptures. Moreover, the canonical Scriptures are these: Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy, Joshua the son of Nun, Judges, Ruth, the four books of the Kings,(a) the two books of Chronicles, Job, the Psalms of David, five books of Solomon,(b) the book of the Twelve [minor] Prophets, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Daniel, Tobias, Judith, Esther, the two books of Ezra,(c) and the two books of the Maccabees. The books of the New Testament: the Gospels, four books; the Acts of the Apostles, one book; the epistles of the apostle Paul, thirteen; of the same to the Hebrews, one epistle; of Peter, two; of John the apostle, three; of James, one; of Jude, one; the Revelation of John. Concerning the confirmation of this canon, the Church across the sea shall be consulted. On the anniversaries of martyrs, their acts shall also be read.

So how come your Bible is different, David, than the one used by our Christian ancestors?

Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), August 05, 2003.

Luthern was more than a Protestant. He caused a chain reaction in society. He gave the people the power to go against many institutions of the times. Not only in religion, in many things such as servitude, commerce, and you name it.

Before you blame Catholics, you should have a look at the history books about Luthern and his doings in the Reformation. The Reformation involved the secular world too.

Luther wanted to omitt the Book of James because it conflicted with Luther's doctrine--"works". I suppose that Luther did not consider the Book of James as being an inspired book? Do you believe that Luther was one of God's hired guns? Is so, then you would have to agree that the Book of James is not inspired or that Luther was not inspired. You can't have both.

rod..

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), August 06, 2003.

"Luthern"??? Obviously, I had an un-inspired thought, there.

We are talking about Martin Luther. My brain is puddy. Wait, puddy is my brain. Test...1...2..3... Ok. I alright.

rod..

..

.

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), August 06, 2003.

rod, I DO NOT CARE about WHAT IFS. That just like saying "What if Hitler won the war" well many things could have happened, BUT ONLY ONE THING DID. THE FACTS ARE: The Book of James is there, and os inspired Word of God

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), August 06, 2003.

Then answer the question, David.

Why would Martin Luther want the Book of James removed?

Evidently, Luther was wanting to change the word of God.

Evidently, Luther was not sent by God. So, who sent Luther?

It seems that Lucifer....I mean Luther was doing something wrong by wanting to remove books from the Bible.

David, you are starting to type like Kevin. You are USING large type IN your sentences. (I use them randomly and mockingly, SORRY.)

rod..

..

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), August 06, 2003.

I cannot say who God sends to us. This is my point. For all we know, Benny Hinn could be sent by God. How many people have converted to the real Gospel and reject Hinn? Hey, vaccinations work by introducing the very things we are fighting in order to make us immune to those bad things. Luther was bad medicine, but his illogical doctrine/thesis did wake up people. Luther died still cursing the Church and saw himself as a myrtar (if recollection serves me well).

So, David read as much as you can about Luther and his 95 Thesis and the repercussions it had during his time and the history we have today. His doings have had a direct influence in how you believe. I know; it is just a bunch of "old men" with strange ideas.

..

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), August 06, 2003.

It is just a bunch of "old men" with strange ideas.

This would include Noah, Abraham, Moses, all the prophets, Matthew, Luke, John, Peter, and all the rest. But, it doesn't stop there. God's teachings do not end on the last page of the Bible. Where would this put "speaking in tongues"? I suppose that we should ignore this gift because what is understood is not written in the Bible.

rod..

..

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), August 06, 2003.

David said "Correction, THE FACTS ARE: The Book of James is there, and inspired." How in the world can you possibly know that?

Gail

P.S. I've started to notice I AM using a lot of CAPS too!!!

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), August 06, 2003.

“Why would Martin Luther want the Book of James removed? “

Probably because people would use the scripture to go against salvation by Faith Alone. But the Fact is he didn’t remove it. Maybe he realized that there was harmony between those scriptures and the rest of the bible.

“Evidently, Luther was wanting to change the word of God.”

Wanting. However, He did not.

“Evidently, Luther was not sent by God. So, who sent Luther?”

Do not use this illogic; He was an instrument of God to bring people back to the true Word of God. “It seems that Lucifer....I mean Luther was doing something wrong by wanting to remove books from the Bible. “

More illogic, there is a difference between doing something and wanting to do something.

“David, you are starting to type like Kevin. You are USING large type IN your sentences.”

No rod, I have always typed liked this. I put things in CAPS for emphasis.

“I cannot say who God sends to us. This is my point. For all we know, Benny Hinn could be sent by God.”

I never said God sent Luther, but God used him to get people to go back to searching the scriptures. I have my doubts about Benny Hinn.

“Hey, vaccinations work by introducing the very things we are fighting in order to make us immune to those bad things. Luther was bad medicine, but his illogical doctrine/thesis did wake up people.”

Yes, his Catholic doctrines are illogical, but is justification by faith alone is illogical? No.

“Luther died still cursing the Church and saw himself as a myrtar (if recollection serves me well).”

“So, David read as much as you can about Luther and his 95 Thesis and the repercussions it had during his time and the history we have today. His doings have had a direct influence in how you believe. I know; it is just a bunch of "old men" with strange ideas.”

I rather not read more about Luther. Also, to Gail, The church fathers didn’t agree with themselves on many doctrines. What you do is pick the ones that only agree with each other.

“This would include Noah, Abraham, Moses, all the prophets, Matthew, Luke, John, Peter, and all the rest. But, it doesn't stop there.”

The Holy Spirit inspired those ‘old men’; the church fathers were not inspired. That is why I stick to reading the bible instead of church father quotes.

“God's teachings do not end on the last page of the Bible.”

Yes it does, least the stuff he wanted us to know.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), August 07, 2003.

What's a matter Gail, can't have faith that a perfect God can keep his Word preserved?

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), August 07, 2003.

Not only do I believe that He gave us His Word but He keeps His Word. When He said, "Thou Art Peter, and Upon This Rock I will build my church and the gates of Hell shall not Prevail," He meant it.

Have a great day!

Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), August 07, 2003.

"Thou Art Peter, and Upon This Rock I will build my church and the gates of Hell shall not Prevail,"

This has nothing to do with the Catholic church. The church is built "upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone" (Ephesians 2:20). Peter is NOT 'The Rock'.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), August 07, 2003.

David, you walk around with empty pistols. You would rather keep your knowledge limited and you seem to fear Luther. Luther, the very man who has shaped your "Sola Scriptura" that you practice. I suppose that if you are rejecting "church fathers" you would also have to reject Luther.

Why do you call something you don't understand "illogic"? You said it yourself, "I never said God sent Luther, but God used him to get people to go back to searching the scriptures. ". "Sent", "used" it is the same idea.

Where would this put "speaking in tongues"? I suppose that we should ignore this gift because what is understood is not written in the Bible.

Whatever is revealed in the "speaking in tongues" can never be accepted because it is not written in the Bible. David, you didn't address this. I think that if the even is genuine, we should listen, eventhouh it isn't written in the Bible. Same with other events that occur under the Catholic "umbrella" or any other denomination.

rod..

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), August 07, 2003.

The reason the Pentecostal Church exists today was because of "speaking in tongues". And, to say that the last page of the Bible signifies all the Bible has to say and that no other learning or message is to be found outside of the written text would say that "speaking in tongues" is irrelevant to God's Scriptures. If you believe in "speaking in tongues" , then the Bible is not an open and shut book. More teachings and messages are given to us that are not revealed in the Bible. The Bible, which has been translated over time and influence, is the word of God and so can be found in his Creation.

rod..

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), August 07, 2003.

David,

The idea of "purgatory" does NOT have any basis in truth.

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), August 29, 2003.

has ne one ever noticed that when we argue about bibical issues, no one ever changes their minds and everyone just gets angry and thus we r wasting time that we could be using to help other, less fortunate of gods offspring who do not have access to technological resources?

-- maria power (mariaisthefav1@yahoo.co.uk), September 14, 2003.

Hi Maria.

I've gotten angry only a few times, but I'm not sure that I've gotten angry in this forum (I've posted in the Catholic forum, too). The only reason for my anger concerned the way people treated each other, not their doctrine or beliefs.

I have gained insights on Scriptures and doctrine through the debates and discussions on these forums. Sometimes I do change my thinking on certain issues and sometimes I find confirmations for my own beliefs. Debate and discussion does stimulate the thought processes and allow us to make stronger or weaker connection and therefore gain better undertanding.

I can see how our words could be viewed as "angry" words, but I'm sure that in a face to face meeting, we would shake hands and go out for pizza or something. We might even attend a church service or mass. Well, maybe not a mass, unless it was of a special celebrations. It is ok to reveal our beliefs and, if need be, stick to our guns when the doctrines don't see eye to eye. David and Kevin are fine people who are on fire with the Holy Spirit, now we'll have to figure out the definition of on "fire" and "Holy Spirit". Nevertheless, we have faith in God and Jesus; we have that commonallity.

I didn't mean to forget Gail and there are many here.

rod

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), September 14, 2003.

The Christian Church has always taught the efficiency and complete work of Christ's sacrifice at Calvary. Obviously the 2,000 year old Christian doctrine of Purgatory does not deny that Christ completely and fully paid the price for our sin. However, just as obviously, that is not the whole story, or else every human being would automatically be saved. The fact that some human beings are not saved in spite of the completeness of Christ's death on the cross is due to the fact that different people respond differently to the free gift of salvation which is offered to us - but not forced upon us - by His death and resurrection.

Some people throw it back in His face. Others ignore Him completely. A few special people fully accept and live the New Life of grace which He offers us, make their entire life a sacrificial offering to God, and die ready to enter heaven. But most of us fall somewhere between complete rejection of Christ and complete acceptance of Him and all that He teaches. It is only common sense then to recognize that most of us are not ready to be cast into the everlasting fires of hell, nor are we ready to meet God face to face, and to share the eternal fellowship of the holiest of the holy. Most of us make a basic effort to follow Christ, as long as it doesn't hurt too much, and as long as we don't have to relinquish our grasp on some of the worldly pleasures and comforts we desire. We reach out to God, yet dabble in ungodliness. We trust in Him, but only so far.

Will a just and loving God condemn such sincere but pitifully weak creatures to an eternity in hell? Not likely. Will a just God fling wide the gates of heaven and allow such incomplete and soiled Christians to freely walk in along with the holiest of His saints? Not likely. Scripture says that nothing unclean can come into His presence.

Fundamentalist theology claims that he "covers over" our sins, and "smuggles" us into heaven - still actually filthy but appearing clean, like a dung heap covered with snow. This is a modern tradition of men, which no Christian on earth ever heard of before the 16th century. Genuine Christian theology however tells us that He allows us to actually BE purified - genuinely MADE CLEAN - before our entrance into everlasting joy. This cleansing place/state/process is called Purgatory. Purgation - cleansing - happens there.

Purgatory is one of the most beautiful of God's gifts. He revealed this reality even to the chosen people, the Jews, before the birth of Christ - and then to the Christian Church through the teaching and writing of the Apostles. Without Purgatory, the only people who could ever enter heaven would be those select few who die in a state of absolute spiritual purity. Purgatory is a place of purification, but also of joy and peace, for those in Purgatory, unlike those on earth, know without a doubt that they are saved and will spend eternity in the intimate company of God. Praise Him!

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), November 07, 2003.

Paul, (aka Catholic Moderator)

This does not surprise me that you didn't offer any NT Scripture to support your FALSE DOCTRINE of Purgatory for NONE exists!!!

"Scripture says that nothing unclean can come into His presence."

God says in 1 John 1:7, "But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin."

God says in Ephesians 1:7, "In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace"

The BLOOD OF JESUS is the ONLY thing that can cleanse us from sin NOT Purgatory as the Catholic Church FALSELY teaches.

It really makes me wonder if Catholics even read their Bibles???

It is no wonder that the Bible is the least read, best selling book in the world!!!

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), November 07, 2003.

The Catholic Church says: "Without Purgatory, the only people who could ever the teaching and writing of the Apostles. Without Purgatory, the only people who could ever enter heaven would be those select few who die in a state of absolute spiritual purity."

God says: "Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are MANY who go in by it." (Matt 7:13).

"Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are FEW who find it." (Matt 7:14).

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), November 07, 2003.

Well said, James. Your quote on Onesipherus was good. Maybe this could be a good point for purgatory, even though purgatory is not mentioned in the New Testament or in the Old under this name. Kevin or David only interpret this verse as meaning the Day of Judgement.

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), November 08, 2003.

"God says in 1 John 1:7, "But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin."

A: Yes, there you have it. One who walks in the light AS HE IS IN THE LIGHT, is surely free of all sin, as He was. But the plain fact is, virtually no-one walks in the light AS HE DOES. He is the essence of light, of goodness, of holiness, or grace. Many people shun the light altogether, but those who count themselves as Christians try to walk in the light, with Jesus as their guide. And to the extent that they do so, to the extent that can turn their backs on the world and its vain promises, and keep their eyes focused only on the light, as Jesus did, to that same extent will their sins be forgiven. Since most of us do not live completely in the light, we die with remnants of darkness remaining within us. That is the reason God has provided the blessed gift of Purgatory, so that those who have sincerely followed the light to the extent that their human frailty and imperfection and sin allows them to may yet be saved by the grace of the Cross of Jesus Christ, poured out through the cleansing fires of Purgatory. What love God has for His people, that He would not allow us to perish, inspite of our weakness and failings! Amen!

"It really makes me wonder if Catholics even read their Bibles???"

Yes, Catholics were reading the Bibles for 1,200 years before the advent of denominational sects. And even if they didn't read it personally, it is read to them at every Mass. But of course we know that simply reading the Bible does not provide us with the fullness of truth. Otherwise, how could there be thousands of conflicting denominations, all teaching contradictory beliefs, all supposedly found in the same Bible? A structure cannot stand without its pillars and its foundation. Neither can truth. That's why God provided us with pillars and a foundation for the truth, to keep it firm, prevent it from warping and taking on new forms, and eventually collapsing. His Holy Word idetifies that pillar and foundation of truth - His Church (1 Tim 3:15). Without His Church the truth cannot stand.

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), November 08, 2003.

Please notice that there is NOT one shred of proof in Paul's reply that states that Purgatory is a doctrine that can be found in the NT.

He still has NOT provided the verses which support this FALSE doctrine.

Paul wrote: "Yes, there you have it. One who walks in the light AS HE IS IN THE LIGHT, is surely free of all sin, as He was. But the plain fact is, virtually no-one walks in the light AS HE DOES."

Does this passage say that we CAN "WALK IN THE LIGHT"??? It MOST CERTAINLY says IF WE WALK IN THE LIGHT, so it IS POSSIBLE to WALK IN THE LIGHT.

Paul wrote, "Since most of us do not live completely in the light, we die with remnants of darkness remaining within us."

This is a statement that Paul could NOT prove if his life depended on it. The Apostle Paul said in 1 Cor 9:27, "But I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest, when I have preached to others, I myself should become disqualified." So it is POSSIBLE to WALK IN THE LIGHT.

Paul wrote, "That is the reason God has provided the blessed gift of Purgatory, so that those who have sincerely followed the light to the extent that their human frailty and imperfection and sin allows them to may yet be saved by the grace of the Cross of Jesus Christ, poured out through the cleansing fires of Purgatory. What love God has for His people, that He would not allow us to perish, inspite of our weakness and failings! Amen!"

Please notice that there is once again NOT one shred of Scriptural evidence to support the false notion that the "blood of Jesus" wasn't enough to wash away sin so God had to invent Purgatory to do what the "blood of Jesus" was not able to accomplish. What utter and complete ignorance of God's Word to believe this false doctrine which denies the saving power of Jesus blood that was shed on the cross for the remission of our sins!!!

Paul wrote, "But of course we know that simply reading the Bible does not provide us with the fullness of truth."

Once again, Catholics claim allegiance to the Word of God but yet they talk out of the side of their mouth when they say "the Bible does not provide us with the fullness of truth". This really PROVES that Catholics do NOT respect the Word of God otherwise they would NOT make this claim. It is interesting to note that Jehovah's witnesses and Mormons also do NOT believe that the Bible provides us with the fullness of truth because they have their Watchtower publications and the book of Mormon.

Paul wrote, "Otherwise, how could there be thousands of conflicting denominations, all teaching contradictory beliefs, all supposedly found in the same Bible?"

This is true because men would rather believe what someone has written in a creed or catechism instead of what God has PLAINLY revealed in His Word. True unity will ONLY come if men lay down all of their creeds and catechisms and seek to be led by the ONLY source of authority God has left to us and that is His Word the Bible.

Paul wrote, "A structure cannot stand without its pillars and its foundation. Neither can truth. That's why God provided us with pillars and a foundation for the truth, to keep it firm, prevent it from warping and taking on new forms, and eventually collapsing. His Holy Word idetifies that pillar and foundation of truth - His Church"

This most certainly is NOT the Catholic Church for this Church and her FALSE doctrines have NO basis in the Word of God.

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), November 08, 2003.

"Please notice that there is NOT one shred of proof in Paul's reply that states that Purgatory is a doctrine that can be found in the NT."

A: Please note that there is not one shred of proof that Christian doctrines have to be found in the NT. This idea is a modern tradition of men. Christians throughout history have looked to the biblical pillar and foundation of truth for true doctrine, not to personal interpretation of a collection of inspired early Catholic writings.

"Does this passage say that we CAN "WALK IN THE LIGHT"??? It MOST CERTAINLY says IF WE WALK IN THE LIGHT, so it IS POSSIBLE to WALK IN THE LIGHT."

A: That's right. It's possible. Otherwise I would not have said that some do it far more perfectly than others. A quick look around your own congregation should serve as proof of that.

"The Apostle Paul said in 1 Cor 9:27, "But I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest, when I have preached to others, I myself should become disqualified." So it is POSSIBLE to WALK IN THE LIGHT."

A: Again, of course it is possible. And Paul here says that it is a tremendous challenge which requires a lot of effort - effort which various Christians make to a greater or lesser extent. Which is why the fruit of walking in the light is greater or lesser for different people.

"Please notice that there is once again NOT one shred of Scriptural evidence to support the false notion that the "blood of Jesus" wasn't enough to wash away sin so God had to invent Purgatory to do what the "blood of Jesus" was not able to accomplish."

A: Well of course there isn't a shred of evidence for such an untruth! There is NOTHING lacking in the Blood of Jesus. It is sufficient to provide salvation for every person who has ever lived and ever will live. Yet the Bible tells us that not all people will be saved by the Blood of Jesus? Is this because of some insufficiency on the part of Our Lord and Savior? Of course not! It is because of insufficiency on the part of those who accept the gift of salvation and walk in the light. Some do so fully, most do so partially. That's a fact that anyone can see just by looking about them - or into their own hearts for that matter.

"This is true because men would rather believe what someone has written in a creed or catechism instead of what God has PLAINLY revealed in His Word. True unity will ONLY come if men lay down all of their creeds and catechisms and seek to be led by the ONLY source of authority God has left to us and that is His Word the Bible"

A: Ummm, excuse me, but ... the Creed and Catechism belong to ONE Church, which has NOT fragmented into thousands of conflicting denominations. The "Bible only" approach belongs to a modern tradition which HAS fragmented into thousands of conflicting denominations. How do you explain this observable historical fact? By their fruits shall ye know them.

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), November 09, 2003.

I wrote, "Please notice that there is NOT one shred of proof in Paul's reply that states that Purgatory is a doctrine that can be found in the NT."

To which Paul replied: "Please note that there is not one shred of proof that Christian doctrines have to be found in the NT. This idea is a modern tradition of men. Christians throughout history have looked to the biblical pillar and foundation of truth for true doctrine, not to personal interpretation of a collection of inspired early Catholic writings."

My reply: Just answer the question Paul. Where is the doctrine of Purgatory in the New Testament??? This idea (Purgatory) is a modern tradition of men with NO basis in the Word of God.

I wrote, "Does this passage say that we CAN "WALK IN THE LIGHT"??? It MOST CERTAINLY says IF WE WALK IN THE LIGHT, so it IS POSSIBLE to WALK IN THE LIGHT."

To which Paul replied: "That's right. It's possible. Otherwise I would not have said that some do it far more perfectly than others. A quick look around your own congregation should serve as proof of that."

No, that is NOT true according to Catholic doctrine for one CANNOT walk as Jesus walked in the light (Paul's EXACT statment earlier) so, that is why there is Purgatory (for Catholics) because they believe that one CANNOT measure up to Jesus standards.

I wrote, "The Apostle Paul said in 1 Cor 9:27, "But I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest, when I have preached to others, I myself should become disqualified." So it is POSSIBLE to WALK IN THE LIGHT."

To which Paul replied: "Again, of course it is possible. And Paul here says that it is a tremendous challenge which requires a lot of effort - effort which various Christians make to a greater or lesser extent. Which is why the fruit of walking in the light is greater or lesser for different people."

If it is "possible" for one, then it is "possible" for ALL. To claim that one CANNOT on this earth have the opportunity to go to Heaven without going thru some make believe place as Purgatory is nothing but pure NONSENSE. What does Matthew 7:14 say???

I wrote, "Please notice that there is once again NOT one shred of Scriptural evidence to support the false notion that the "blood of Jesus" wasn't enough to wash away sin so God had to invent Purgatory to do what the "blood of Jesus" was not able to accomplish."

To which Paul replied: "Well of course there isn't a shred of evidence for such an untruth! There is NOTHING lacking in the Blood of Jesus. It is sufficient to provide salvation for every person who has ever lived and ever will live. Yet the Bible tells us that not all people will be saved by the Blood of Jesus? Is this because of some insufficiency on the part of Our Lord and Savior? Of course not! It is because of insufficiency on the part of those who accept the gift of salvation and walk in the light. Some do so fully, most do so partially. That's a fact that anyone can see just by looking about them - or into their own hearts for that matter."

Titus 2:11 says, "For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men," Your doctrine of Purgatory states that the blood of Jesus was not sufficient to cleans all men of their sin if they "walk in the light" so that is why they must go through Purgatory. If it is possible to be saved here on this earth (and it is), then there is NO reason to have a place such as Purgatory.

I wrote, "This is true because men would rather believe what someone has written in a creed or catechism instead of what God has PLAINLY revealed in His Word. True unity will ONLY come if men lay down all of their creeds and catechisms and seek to be led by the ONLY source of authority God has left to us and that is His Word the Bible"

To which Paul replied: "Ummm, excuse me, but ... the Creed and Catechism belong to ONE Church, which has NOT fragmented into thousands of conflicting denominations. The "Bible only" approach belongs to a modern tradition which HAS fragmented into thousands of conflicting denominations. How do you explain this observable historical fact? By their fruits shall ye know them."

Yes, we will know them "by their fruits". I have already explained this to you about Catholic "fruits" on another thread.

Creeds and Catechisms are the reason the world is divided today. The "Bible only" approach does NOT belong to a "modern tradition" as you FALSELY assert, but is the ONLY means of TRUE UNITY.

-- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), November 09, 2003.

I knew I was forgetting something. Here is my incomplete response to the Catholic Outlook site. I just wanted to deal with the first part of the article first, the Maccabees reference.

The site reads, “In chapter 12 of that book, we read that Judas Maccabeus and his men were recovering the bodies of some men who had fallen in battle. Under their tunics they found sacred tokens of the idols of Jamnia.” It should be noted from verse 40 that “it was clear to all that this was why these men had been slain.”

We then read that Judas Maccabeus took up an offering as a sacrifice for atonement for the fallen men, so that they may be delivered from their sin. Verse 43 says that “[Judas] acted in a very excellent and noble way” for 44 and 45, “if he were not expecting the fallen to rise again, it would have been useless and foolish...But if he did this with a view to the splendid reward that awaits those who had gone to rest in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. So I ask you this, did these soldiers who carried amulets of Jamnia die in godliness. The only answer is NO. They died in wickedness, in idolatry. Galatians 5:19-21 says, “Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God."

There is no doubt that these men would never enter into, or go through a process that is called Purgatory, even if such a thing existed. These fallen soldiers were bound for Hell, dying in what the Roman Catholic Church would describe as a mortal sin. Therefore, Judas’ actions were useless and foolish despite the author’s attempt to glorify Judas. This is a glaring contradiction between God’s Word and the Maccabees.

Plus, the site also reads, “the Church does not teach that this process takes "time," as we understand it. Indeed, it may be instantaneous, at least from the perspective of the one undergoing it.” To make sure this is absolutely clear, if it were possible that these men would suffer purgatory before entering Heaven (which it isn’t according to the site—“Purgatory is only for the saved”), these men could have already gone through the process and have been out BEFORE Judas even knew they were dead! What good was his offering then? What good was his atonement? What good is anybody’s?

Anyone who believes that these fallen soldiers would still enter into heaven must also conclude that Ananias and Sapphira (Acts 5) also inherited the kingdom of God even after God himself struck them dead.

-- Luke Juarez (hubertdorm@yahoo.com), May 03, 2004.

Luke said: So I ask you this, did these soldiers who carried amulets of Jamnia die in godliness. The only answer is NO. They died in wickedness, in idolatry.

I agree with you that idolatry is wickedness. However, that does not mean that they died in idolatry. They could have had these idols inside their cloaks but repented of it before death. Only God knows their hearts, Luke, and that is not for us to judge. It is never fruitless to pray for someone. Protestants will even admit that for people who are alive, we should pray for them up to the last moment before their death, in the hope that they will turn to God.

Luke said: There is no doubt that these men would never enter into, or go through a process that is called Purgatory, even if such a thing existed. These fallen soldiers were bound for Hell, dying in what the Roman Catholic Church would describe as a mortal sin.

Same answer as above.

Luke said: Therefore, Judas’ actions were useless and foolish despite the author’s attempt to glorify Judas. This is a glaring contradiction between God’s Word and the Maccabees.

Sincere prayer is never useless - please provide Biblical backup for your statement. And Maccabees is part of God's Word. I have the authority of the Catholic Church to confirm it, the same authority that confirmed your New Testament canon along with this book of Maccabees.

Luke said: Plus, the site also reads, “the Church does not teach that this process takes "time," as we understand it. Indeed, it may be instantaneous, at least from the perspective of the one undergoing it.”

Let's look at what the site says again about what the Catholic Church teaches:

There are only three things the Church teaches about Purgatory:

1. If we are not fully purified in this life, we will be after death;

2. This final purification involves some sort of discomfort; and

3. The prayers of the faithful on earth can help those undergoing their final purification.

The statement you quoted was simply denying that the Catholic Church teaches something, not necessarily denying the truth of it. The site was saying that we just don't know for sure. Notice the phrase "may be", indicating that this is the speculation of the author.

Luke said: To make sure this is absolutely clear, if it were possible that these men would suffer purgatory before entering Heaven (which it isn’t according to the site—“Purgatory is only for the saved”),

Again, like I said, they could have been saved. It's impossible for us to know their hearts. That's why Judas prayed for them, in the hopes that if they repented before their death or if they had the idols in their cloaks and realized it was wrong before they died, God might have mercy on their souls.

continued...

-- Emily (jesusfollower7@yahoo.com), May 03, 2004.

Luke said: these men could have already gone through the process and have been out BEFORE Judas even knew they were dead! What good was his offering then? What good was his atonement? What good is anybody’s?

Well first of all, I doubt that you are discrediting Jesus' atonement on the cross. Also, in the OT, priests offered sacrifices for the sins of the people. Were those no good? The Bible also says we must suffer.

Acts 9:15 (KJV)(God talking to Ananias about Saul) But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel: 16 For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake.

Rom. 8:17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint- heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

Also, the verse that James mentioned in another thread about the demons going out by prayer and fasting is relevant here.

Luke said: Anyone who believes that these fallen soldiers would still enter into heaven must also conclude that Ananias and Sapphira (Acts 5) also inherited the kingdom of God even after God himself struck them dead.

This is not true. Only God can judge people's hearts. God Himself struck Ananias and Sapphira dead because at that moment He knew that their hearts were not following God. Even they could have turned to God at the last moment - we don't know. But in the case in Maccabees, we are discussing a military event, in which God used people to slay others. So those people, while working as God's instruments, may have slain someone who was repentant at their last moment.

-- Emily (jesusfollower7@yahoo.com), May 03, 2004.

Note: my discussion here with Luke is continued from this thread: The Thief On The Cross.

-- Emily (jesusfollower7@yahoo.com), May 03, 2004.

Luke, I am working on a Biblical defense of purgatory. However, as it is final exam week for me at college, I will not be able to finish it at the moment.

God bless,

-- Emily (jesusfollower7@yahoo.com), May 03, 2004.

I'll conceed the slight possiblility that those fallen soldiers had repented, not because of any textual evidence, but for lack of it--there is no record either way. However, the case that they would have gone to/through Purgatory depends on them repenting, an assumption based on no textual evidence. I don't usually build doctrines on what isn't said, but what is. Although I admit a small possiblity that they did, more evidence suggests that they did not. In verse 40 it was clear as to the reason for their deaths; not because of a mortal wound, but because of idolatry God did not protect them in battle but allowed them to be killed. Why would God remove his protection from these men if they had repented? It just doesn't add up.

Yes protestants pray for people even up until death. But that isn't the same as praying for them after death, but Leviticus, Deuteronony, Numbers gave the Israelites instructions not to tattoo, shave, or pierce themselves for the dead. A dead body was unclean, and contact with it made one unclean. Isaiah 8,19 mentions the evilness of using mediums to consult the dead. Jeremiah told Israel not to marry with a certain people who honored the dead. In Matthew Jesus told one man "let the dead bury the dead." Then elsewhere "He is not the God of the dead but of the living." I guess the point I'm making is that there is a difference from praying for a living person and praying for a dead one, they aren't the same as you implied.

You asked for biblical backup for my statement that the actions of Judas were useless and foolish. Actually, I did provide textual support from 2 Maccabees, but I wouldn't call this biblical support. 2 Maccabees 12:44 "for if he were not expecting the fallen to rise again, it would have been useless and foolish to pray for them in death."

-- Luke Juarez (hubertdorm@yahoo.com), May 03, 2004.

"The statement you quoted was simply denying that the Catholic Church teaches something, not necessarily denying the truth of it. The site was saying that we just don't know for sure. Notice the phrase "may be", indicating that this is the speculation of the author."

Doesn't this seem odd to you? The Catholic Church is doing this blindly then? Basically, that's what you're telling me. You don't really know for sure if a person is in Purgatory, but you'reoffering money and prayers just in case?

I didn't word that atonement statement well. I was meaning, what good was his offering of atonement for the dead? And any offering we would make for this purpose would be equally useless. Jesus did atone for all mankind who believe in him. I didn't see the revelance of Saul and the verses about suffering Emily. Could you please explain what you meant by posting these?

If God struck Ananias and Sapphira simply because their hearts weren't right, then we do know that they did not repent. And even in the military example, verse 40 still says that it was clear as to the reason these men were killed. Emily, you cannot play what if's here. If they did not repent, this entire passage fails to hold up. Frankly I do not see how you can hold to "maybe" and still believe the Maccabees to be the word of God.

-- Luke Juarez (hubertdorm@yahoo.com), May 03, 2004.

This is the best line on this thread :

"like a dung heap covered with snow"

Personally, I'd rather be a purified dung heap in the fires of Purgatory before entering Heaven rather than stay a "dung heap covered with snow." Those who choose to remain so will make Heaven a stinky place.

-- giuseppe (giuseppe_sclofini@yahoo.com), May 04, 2004.

Isaiah 1:18 "'Come now, let us reason together,' says the LORD . 'Though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they are red as crimson, they shall be like wool.'"

-- Luke Juarez (hubertdorm@yahoo.com), May 04, 2004.

Luke, I posted a response to you as promised. Please see my new thread: Purgatory - A Look at Scripture and Catholic teaching.

-- Emily ("jesusfollower7@yahoo.com), May 08, 2004.