The Thief On The Crossgreenspun.com : LUSENET : Ask Jesus : One Thread |
Did the Thief on the Cross go to heaven??
-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), April 26, 2004
Because Jesus is all-knowing and our Savior, Dismas must have been forgiven for his sins as he suffered for those sins on the cross alongside Christ. Because Jesus tells Dismas that they will be in Paradise, we may guess that Dismas is in Heaven. Some may even say that Dismas is in Heaven. Only God and Dismas know for sure.rod..
..
-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), November 9, 2003.
When did the New Covenant take effect?
-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), November 10, 2003.
The minute Jesus rose from the dead. See I Cor. 15. and 1 Timothy 3. -- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), November 10, 2003.
Does Hebrews 9:16 tells us when the New covenant took effect? Or is Elpidio right that is took effect in the resurrection? -- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), November 29, 2003.
The terms of the New Covenant were NOT given UNTIL the first gospel sermon was preached on the day of Pentecost in Acts chapter 2. -- Kevin Walker (kevinlwalker572@cs.com), November 29, 2003.
Dave, Yes, he went to Heaven. The Catholic Church has a feast day for St. Dismas. He is a saint in Heaven.
St. Dismas pray for these lost souls to come back to the holy Catholic Church.
-- T (Ty@msft.com), November 29, 2003.
Acts 2 1 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
5 And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.
6 Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.
7 And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans?
8 And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?
9 Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia,
10 Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes,
11 Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.
12 And they were all amazed, and were in doubt, saying one to another, What meaneth this?
13 Others mocking said, These men are full of new wine.
14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words:
15 For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day.
16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:
19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:
20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and notable day of the Lord come:
21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.
22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:
23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:
24 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.
25 For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved:
26 Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope:
27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
28 Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance.
29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;
31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool.
36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the LORD our God shall call.
40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
42 And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.
43 And fear came upon every soul: and many wonders and signs were done by the apostles.
44 And all that believed were together, and had all things common;
45 And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need.
46 And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart,
47 Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.
-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), April 26, 2004.
All believers are saints.When we die we go immediately to be with Christ. I think we are *in* Christ (and that is paradise with Him) until the time that He raises our bodies to meet our souls at the first resurrection.
-- (faith01@myway.com), April 26, 2004.
rose from the deadThat is impossible , when someone is dead , the body is damaged !!
All believers are saints.
Sorry , I disagree !!
1 What about people who believe , but still cheat on people ??
2 What about non believers , who doing good things for the people ??
3 What about barabas was the alternative ??
Salut & cheers from a NON BELIEVER:
-- Laurent LUG (.@...), April 27, 2004.
Laurent"impossible" to a mere human being, but not for the God-Man.
if you do not understand, imagine how someone would have felt 500 years ago when you told then that man would go to the moon, transplant hearts, clone human beings, destroy whole cities with bombs, eradicate so many diseases for good, use the internet, digital photography,....., heck the motor car,....
just because you do not understand it does not make it untrue. there are mysteries that are beyond our comprehension.
as for saints/ believers -- have to agree with you. some go to Hell; some to Purgatory, an intermediate and temporary Hell, if you like; others go straight to Heaven.
you raise interesting points -- Ghandi non-Christian, but seemed like a good chap. had he been born into a different set of circumstances, might he have been Catholic? did he suffer from invinvible ignorance? who knows?
"believers" like Koresh and Paisley who stink of evil. surely their "faith" is nugatory in light of the nature of their works.
Blessed Theresa of Calcutta - devoted her life to the poor and the suffering, but suffered crises of faith on an almost daily basis. Blessed Padre Pio had demonic visions throughout his life, but is credited with miracles and inspired so many at his time.
its all far more complicated than that, you and i might agree.
-- Ian (ib@vertifgo.com), April 27, 2004.
We are discussing the Scriptures, Laurent. As a non-believer, you can't relate, and personally--I can't understand why you bother responding., or why you even come here?*%#$%?Of course you disagree--
But we are here to discuss Scripture--which we do believe...
-- (faith01@myway.com), April 27, 2004.
Ian ,"impossible" to a mere human being, but not for the God-Man.
I don't understand !!
But you're right , like 500 years back , talking about , Earth is not the middle of the univers !!
--------------------------------------------------
Back topic:
Did the Thief on the Cross go to heaven??
David or someone else , can you explain what you're talking about ??
Salut & cheers from a NON BELIEVER:
-- Laurent LUG (.@...), April 27, 2004.
Laurentthere was a thief crucified either side of Our Lord. This is the dialogue they shared according to St Luke, Chapter 23 (RSV):
"[39] One of the criminals who were hanged railed at him, saying, "Are you not the Christ? Save yourself and us!"
[40] But the other rebuked him, saying, "Do you not fear God, since you are under the same sentence of condemnation?
[41] And we indeed justly; for we are receiving the due reward of our deeds; but this man has done nothing wrong."
[42] And he said, "Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom."
[43] And he said to him, "Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise.""
Dismas is the name of the "good thief" who was promised Paradise by Jesus. it seems, therefore, something of a slam-dunk.
he's a Saint of the Church: http://www.catholic- forum.com/saints/saintd11.htm
-- Ian (b@vertifgo.com), April 27, 2004.
Laurenton "impossibility", i think we agree that we consider things impossible even when they might be possible. therefore, 1,000 years ago, a reasonable person would have considered space-travel impossible.
for that reason, you might term a resurrection onto eternal life "impossible"; but it has happened. the point i make, however, is that Our Lord Jesus was both man and God - the man-God. he was the Son of God, sired if you like by the Holy Spirit (Divinely begotten, not made), and mothered by the Blessed Virgin Mary (his human side - he bled when pierced, he went to the toilet, he needed food to survive, he would have died if run over by a truck, etc).
ordinary rules, the kind that (x) equate things of which you cannot yet concieve with (y) the impossible, do not apply - because the REsurrection was literally an Act of God.
you might remain sceptical, but you must ask yourself about the "impossibility" that stares us in the face every day. where did the universe come from? it cannot come from nothing - all that mass and energy - Newton and Einstein would agree on that.
it exists however even though its existence under current scientific knowledge is IMPOSSIBLE.
do you believe in the universe? its impossible. it must be just a dream and we are all figments of your imagination!!!!! wake up!!!
you see LAurent ;-)) we Christians know a thing or two. you lot may catch on when its faaaaaaar tooooooo late.....
-- Ian (ib@vertifgo.com), April 27, 2004.
FaithLaurent makes some very legitimate points that can be made whether or not you follow Our Lord.
furthermore, whilst your "faith" may be obvious to you, mine isn't to me.
IOW, you ar efortunate (I assume) that you never question the bigger picture -- does God exist.
such questions, as i have stated above, have plagued the greatest amongst us, and they have engaged the minds of our greatest thinkers.
faith, in a rational world, is not obvious -- it might even be said to be irrational.
if asked by a non-believer why you believe -- WHAT WOULD YOU SAY?
i am interested. Laurent has a point. REMEBER: Laurent -- in our world -- is also in the majority.
-- Ian (ib@vertifgo.com), April 27, 2004.
Laruent,Some people believe the thief went to hades, or paradise. Just wondering what others think.
-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), April 27, 2004.
Davidyou might wish to explain "your take" on the difference(s) between:-
1 Hades
2 Hell
3 Paradise
4 Heaven
-- Ian (ib@vertifgo.com), April 27, 2004.
I believe scriptures show plainly that Jesus was in Hades. Dismas And SalvationI am not certain where the thief went to, but if it was literally with Jesus, then he was literally cursed*. Where is salvation in that?*changed for the faint of heart
-- Luke Juarez (hubertdorm@yahoo.com), April 27, 2004.
Jesus said that the pentinent thief would be in paradise--what kind of paradise would you think is a curse, Luke? Where does Hades come into this? I don't see anything that says anything about Hades....
-- (faith01@myway.com), April 27, 2004.
Faith, I posted the thread to explain where Jesus went, not the thief. If you believe that the thief went wherever Jesus did, (and you've said so in the other thread) then either you are mistaken as to where Jesus went or the meaning of paradise, or both. Paradise could mean better place, but it can also mean garden. A garden is often where people were buried. Maybe Jesus was telling him, "I'll tell you the truth, you shall be in the grave just as I."
-- Luke Juarez (hubertdorm@yahoo.com), April 27, 2004.
No Luke--as I stated elsewhere., when we die--we go directly to be with jesus. We are *in* Him.., having been buried and resurrected with Him at the moment we trusted Him as our Savior.
-- (faith01@myway.com), April 27, 2004.
Oh ok. You're simply suggesting that the thief was buried and resurrected before Jesus himself was.
-- Luke Juarez (hubertdorm@yahoo.com), April 27, 2004.
Lol!!What is so complicated?
Jesus promised the repenant thief that he would be in paradise with Jesus...duh!!
Jesus is God eternal...
-- (faith01@myway.com), April 27, 2004.
Purgatory is a Paradise because it ultimately leads to Heaven.that's the Paradise to which Our Lord and St Dismas went. Our Lord spent 3 days there, was resurrected, spent 40 days here, then the Ascension.
its all in the Bible.
-- Ian (ib@vertifgo.com), April 28, 2004.
Ian??Do you have any Scripture passages to support your claim?
I didn't think so.....
Purgatory is a man-made invention.
-- (faith01@myway.com), April 28, 2004.
'Faith'To know for the scriptural existance of Purgatory go a href="http://http://www.catholic.com/library/Purgatory.asp">here
-- Andrew (andyhbk96@hotmail.com), April 28, 2004.
Can't you just site the Scripture passages...book, chapters and verses?I don't need a lot of explanations and apologetics. If it's revealed in the Bible--I would see it.
-- (faith01@myway.com), April 28, 2004.
Faith, you said: If it's revealed in the Bible--I would see it.This is not necessarily true.
2 Pet 3
15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.
Faith, how do you know for sure that you're not missing something. Read the site he linked - it includes Scripture. Here is another site with the Biblical basis for Purgatory - http://www.cathol icoutlook.com/objpurg3.html. Just because it's in the Scripture, doesn't mean you will automatically know and believe it. Your entire way of approaching Scripture study is based on a false assumption.
-- Emily (jesusfollower7@yahoo.com), April 28, 2004.
To believe that we need to suffer in a place called purgatory for our sin--that Christ already suffered and died for--is a slap in the face of our Lord--who paid the price for our sin--in our place.What--he didn't suffer enough for you?
The Bible tells us that if we are found forgiven in Christ, there is no longer any condemnation for us.
I believe God.....
I know there is nothing I can do to earn my salvation which is a gift from God.
Christ suffered *once*--for all. His sacrifice was totally sufficient and accepted by God. It is finished.
-- (faith01@myway.com), April 28, 2004.
Faith said: To believe that we need to suffer in a place called purgatory for our sin--that Christ already suffered and died for--is a slap in the face of our Lord--who paid the price for our sin--in our place. What--he didn't suffer enough for you?No, Faith. It is a slap in the face of God to think that sin can enter heaven when God says that it cannot.
Faith said: The Bible tells us that if we are found forgiven in Christ, there is no longer any condemnation for us.
I believe God.....
True, I agree. Now here's where David and the OSAS crowd will like what I have to say. The Arminian view of salvation is inconsistent, as we can see here in Faith's post. She says that we can lose our salvation (ie. turn away from God), but at the same time, she says that once we are in Christ, there is no longer any condemnation. Even if we turn away from God, Faith?
Purgatory is to cleanse us from unconfessed sins committed before death that were not of such as grave nature as to completely turn away from God (mortal sins), but are enough to separate us from God. Christ's sacrifice covers our sins eternally, but we still must face the consequences. If your child does something wrong and asks forgiveness, don't you still punish him/her? Otherwise the child will do the same again and think that an "I'm sorry" with no real consequences will suffice, thus creating a spoiled child with no regard for morals.
Faith said: I know there is nothing I can do to earn my salvation which is a gift from God.
I agree completely with this. The Catholic view of salvation is this:
We are justified (initial salvation) by grace alone. The process of salvation is continuing to follow Christ with our whole lives through faith AND works, both of which can only be done by the grace of God. We attain final salvation if we (by God's grace) persevere until the end. So essentially, salvation is by God's grace alone, which manifests itself in our lives.
Faith said: Christ suffered *once*--for all. His sacrifice was totally sufficient and accepted by God. It is finished.
I agree. However, to deny that we will suffer is to deny the Bible:
Romans 8 (KJV)
17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
God bless,
-- Emily (jesusfollower7@yahoo.com), April 28, 2004.
Sorry Emily..,But I never said anyone who is truly saved, can lose their salvation. Jesus said that He will lose none of those who are His....
We are seen as sinless by God because we are wearing the righteousness of Christ.
That is the whole purpose of the cross. We could never be perfect or sinless and nothing we do will ever change that. That is why Christ is our Savior--he is sinlessness for us--He is that perfection that God requires...and we go to heaven based on His righteousness which is credited to us when we receive Him.
-- (faith01@myway.com), April 28, 2004.
Sorry Faith, I thought you were Arminian. Well in any case, the Arminian argument is flawed in this way. OSAS, I believe, is also flawed, but for other reasons.
-- Emily (jesusfollower7@yahoo.com), April 28, 2004.
yes Faithi will show you where we find Purgatory in Scripture.
not now though, this weekend.
-- Ian (ib@vertifgo.om), April 28, 2004.
Wow, you guys have really confused me now...
-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), April 28, 2004.
Ian,Don't show her. She can read the articles that people linked to at Catholic Answers and Catholic Outlook. They contain a number of Scripture references. She can check those, come back with questions, and go from there. If she will not listen to them, why would she listen to you?
Faith,
I talked with a Protestant pastor about this view of "Scripture Alone" that says that you don't need to read anything else besides the Bible because it's clear in the Bible. I did this awhile ago because I know someone else who has this same view of Scripture. Do you know what the pastor said? He said that view is anarchy. He believes that all people are on the same level, so his interpretation is just as good as the next person's. So he reads views of Christians throughout history in order to get a better perspective of what a Bible passage might mean. While I do not agree with his view completely (he is still Sola Scriptura in his view of authority), I think his approach is superior to the one that you are taking. I am not trying to insult you here, so please do not take it that way. This is merely an attempt to offer some perspective on your view of interpreting Scripture.
God bless,
-- Emily (jesusfollower7@yahoo.com), April 28, 2004.
David, why are you confused?
-- Emily (jesusfollower7@yahoo.com), April 28, 2004.
Emily..,Please don't assume that I am an infant here or something.
I read your links.., I have read it all before.
Ya see--my faith isn't blind. I am willing to read differing perspectives. But I have done so over and over again. I remain convicted in my beliefs.
I know what rings true to Scripture and what doesn't. I trust the Holy Spirit's guidance in me., and I disagree with most of Catholic doctrine. That is why I chose to leave Catholicism behind and move on..
The only thing left is to help those who will listen--to come to the same realization about the false teachings in the Catholic Church that I have come to.
Purgatory defies the cross....
-- (faith01@myway.com), April 28, 2004.
Faith,I'm sorry for writing something offensive. Apparently I misunderstood you.
When you said: Can't you just site the Scripture passages...book, chapters and verses? I don't need a lot of explanations and apologetics. If it's revealed in the Bible--I would see it. .
I thought here you meant that you would only read the Bible.
God bless,
-- Emily (jesusfollower7@yahoo.com), April 28, 2004.
Thank you Emily.. Yes--no matter what apologetic I read--it must base it's theology from the Scriptures or I am not interested in it.I apologize for not being interested in your links--but as I suspected--it was nothing I haven't heard and argued before.
I just wanted to cut to the chase and go directly to God's Word. The Scriptures tell us about how it is that our sins are cleansed away and we are made righteous in God's sight. There is only one answer that I can find in the Scriptures and it is Jesus Christ.
The curious thing about the claim in your link is that the author claims that purgatory is not for salvation--yet at the same time, only a forgiven sinner is saved. So how can one be saved before purgatory then? And if the answer is that they are saved because they are forgiven in Christ--then why do they need to still be cleansed in purgatory?
Forgiven means that the sin has been washed away--cancelled.
If you owe someone money--but then someone else pays the debt off for you., and the debtor tells you that your debt has been forgiven--- what would that mean to you? If your friend payed the debt for you., would you think that you owed anything anymore?
You would owe your friend a debt of gratitude for the gift he gave you in paying off your debt--but I hardly think you would still have to go off and wash dishes or something. Your debt was paid! I would think that if God wanted us to pay anything back for what Jesus provided--then He would not have called Jesus a gift....
-- (faith01@myway.com), April 28, 2004.
Emily, I've the site you supplied,Catholic Outlook, concerning Purgatory. So I don't get this thread off topic, I'm going to reply here.
-- Luke Juarez (hubertdorm@yahoo.com), April 30, 2004.