Catholicism and Pagan similaritiesgreenspun.com : LUSENET : Catholic : One Thread |
Okay, yes, I know this is an old topic...but I recently looked it up, and found many things I'd like to add, but the topics were all so old, so...heres a restart!I have found many, many similarities...Egyptian Trinity and Holy Trinity, Yuletide and Christmas, similar beliefs, land you go after you die (Heaven and Summerland), all-supreme being that is multiple beings in It/himself (God, Divine, etc.)
-- Shane X (shane2000x@hotmail.com), April 08, 2003
Hi Shane.I have found the same thing, Shane. My opinion is that primitive cultures must have had a hint of God, but they couldn't get a complete grasp on the truth. Remember, the Holy Spirit hovered over the earth and because of man's free will, man's ability to understand or accept, was very faulty. (I hope that made sense.) This is why we can see similar concepts or beliefs of redemption and salvation in the primitive cultures or religions/myths. It took time for the truth to eventually become manifest--Jesus. Man is not only ignorant, unsophisticated, and self-serving, but stubborn as well.
You remember Abraham had the same circumstances. God spoke to him, but revealed things to him that we now understand. For example, Abraham's offering of his son Isaac was for me, really a prophecy of God sacrificing his only son Jesus. Sure, Abraham proved his "fear" and obedience for God, but I can't fail to see how it relates to the Messiah to come.
Well, at least this is how see things.
rod
-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), April 08, 2003.
Heh. Well, considering the fact that these religions came BEFORE any form of Christianity, Judaism, etc. (at least historically...if we go by Christian biblical studies, there's a diff thing, but lets not test that...) Anyway, I just found Yuletide and Christmas to be strange...Lets try this openmindedly. Why are there such similar holidays, with Yuletide existing before the year 1 A.D.?
Kinda strange, and doesn't exactly support the "they caught a glimpse of God", unless you are taking it to another level of giving them a glimpse of what was to come...but isn't that against biblical laws, or whatever? I'm confused...
-- Shane X (shane2000x@hotmail.com), April 08, 2003.
The first essential thing someone has to do when looking at something as complex as religion is to define his terms. The second thing one has to do is distinguish between similarity and identity.For example: religion is not the same thing as denomination. You can't use these terms interchangably. A religion is a complete system whereas a denomination is a smaller body within a religion.
Thus Islam and Christianity are two different religions Congregationalists and Baptists are denominations of Christianity.
The second point, distinguishing between similarity and identity is also crucial to avoid fallacies and other errors of judgement.
Both Muslims and certain Protestants reject the use of icons. The Wahabi sect of Islam and the Amish both reject modern technology. But that doesn't make Muslims = to Protestants or the Wahabis = to the Amish!
Similarly, just because certain pagan religions had elements that superficially resembled details of Judeo-Christian practice doesn't mean paganism = judeo-christianity!
-- Joe (joestong@yahoo.com), April 08, 2003.
Okay, for one thing, Joe, that is NOT what I said at all. Also, it is Judeo-Christian elements that resemble pagan elements...pagan religions came first.I didn't say they were the same, I said there were similarities. Any half-wit who knows a thing about religion can tell you they aren't the same. A big piece of evidence: pagan almost always equals polytheism. Judeo-Christiany is montheism.
-- Shane X (shane2000x@hotmail.com), April 08, 2003.
Shane X,Interesting topic even if old. (Don't get mad if I say something you already know.) First I'd say look at Jesus Christ and where his Church went in its influence on mankind compared to the historical influence due to any one pagan religion. Little comparison. So the answer is Jesus The Christ! He is the messiah. Otherwise one of those other pagan religions with some similar stuff would have risen up. That other great non-Christian religion totally borrows from Christianity. Islam is a heretical outgrowth of the Catholic Church. Muslims get the power they do have directly from the teachings Jesus The Christ.
There are a couple great chapters on this topic of pagan influence in Karl Keating's book Catholicism And Fundamentalism. You may like to read them. The book is worth buying and keeping (and sharing). In Chapter 11, Development Of Doctrine and Chapter 12, Fanciful Histories Of Catholicism Karl refutes Protestant books such as Boettner's infamous Catholicism and Ralph Woodrow's Babylon Mystery Religion on this topic of the pagan influence on Christianity. Interestingly, he reminds us that the noble pagan of Greek and Roman times is quite a different person than the neo-pagan we see our modern time citizens becomming. The noble pagen was ripe for the Gospel. They had developed as far as they could without the incarnation to help them grow further toward God. The pre-Christian pagan had some awareness of God, they were not anti- Christs. Old paganism had truth mixed with it's error.
This is from Catholic Answers:
QUOTE
Criticism, refutation, and replacement are also the principles behind modern holidays being celebrated to a limited extent around the same time as former pagan holidays. In actuality, reports of Christian holidays coinciding with pagan ones are often inaccurate (Christmas does not occur on Saturnalia, for example). However, to the extent the phenomenon occurs at all, Christian holidays were introduced to provide a wholesome, non-pagan alternative celebration, which thus critiques and rejects the pagan holiday.
This is the same process that leads Fundamentalists who are offended at the (inaccurately alleged) pagan derivation of Halloween to introduce alternative "Reformation Day" celebrations for their children. (This modern Protestant holiday is based on the fact that the Reformation began when Martin Luther nailed his 95 theses to the church door in Wittenberg, Germany, on October 31, 1517.) Another Fundamentalist substitution for Halloween has been "harvest festivals" that celebrate the season of autumn and the gathering of crops. These fundamentalist substitutions are no more "pagan" than the celebrations of days or seasons that may have been introduced by earlier Christians.
UNQUOTE
Sincerely,
-- Mike H. (michael.hitzelberger@vscc.cc.tn.us), April 08, 2003.
Shane X"Few fundamentalists complain that the Jewish Feast of Tabernacles coincided with a Canaanite vintage festival, much as Christmas did with the festival of Sol Invictus. Consistency has never been fundamentalism's strong suit" Newman Essay, 369
from a footnote in Catholicism and Fundamentalism
-- Mike H. (michael.hitzelberger@vscc.cc.tn.us), April 08, 2003.
Mike...interesting. However, can I point out a few things I don't exactly agree with?You said the pre-Christian pagans were not Anti-Christs...I don't know if you mean other pagans are Anti-Christs. If that is what you mean, I have to disagree. The only religion clumped with any pagan religion that are against christianity in any way is Satanism, and, when you get right down to it, its not a pagan religion at all...its a Christian religion that believes "Satan is right". I'm not condoning it or anything...but, other than any satanists, no pagan religion is against christianity. They just don't believe in it...they don't feel its wrong (confusing...they believe their religion is right for them, and that christianity may be right for other people.) Although that contradicts popular church belief, it's what they believe.
-- Shane X (shane2000x@hotmail.com), April 09, 2003.
Hi Shane.When it comes to Christianity, you(we) are either with them or against them. There is no in-between. So, any pagan belief is anti-Christ in design. To be a Christian means also to reject paganism and especially Satan, which of course means paganism.
rod
-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), April 09, 2003.
Rod, you are 100%.....incorrect. For one, Satanism is absolutely not pagan. It is classified as paganism by Christians who don't want to set it as any kind of Christian sector. And, technically, it doesn't fall in with pagan OR Christian religions. It is, however, a corruption of Christianity that believes Satan is the right one in the argument between God and Satan.Pagans are not Anti-Christ. They just don't believe he is the right way for them. Christians are Anti-Pagan, however.
-- Shane X (shane2000x@hotmail.com), April 09, 2003.
Yes, truth by its very nature is "anti-untruth".
-- Paul (PaulCyp@cox.net), April 10, 2003.
Shane?Do you ever read what you write?
"Pagans are not Anti-Christ. They just don't believe he is the right way for them. Christians are Anti-Pagan, however"
When you reject Christ, you become an Anti-Christ. If you do not believe that He is the right way, you become an Anti-Christ. When you worship as a pagan to any other (false) god, you become an Anti- Christ.
Why can't you admit to your practices?
Yes, I'm an Anti-Pagan and an Anti-satan type of person.
Shane your words are filled with confusion and so is your logic. You don't have to be a Christian, but, at the very least, you should have a clear understanding of reality. "1+1" still equals "2". Yet, you tend to distort things. I think that you are being blinded by an outside source. Run away from that evil source and come to your senses. It would seem that atheism wouldn't be a bad thing compared to the doctrine you are currently suffering. At least, you could start with a clean slate and eventually see Christianity without a blurred mind. God is Love. Look for Love and things will become focused and understandable. Your parents are suffering over you. They don't want to have a lost child. Make the move and honor your parents with clear thinking and true worship for the one and only true God. Seek Him out!
Please Shane! Please reply to my message with love and not anger or hatred, which is easy to do. Think about compassion and understanding. My message to you is sent with brotherly love in order to bring you into a family of love in God.
rod
-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), April 10, 2003.
Rod:You can go on and on about how "God is love, catholicism and christianity are the only right way, you follow demons and false gods, blah de blah de blah" but I won't listen, nor do I have to. I made this topic to discuss Pagan and Christian similarities, not to be attacked or discuss which religion is best. I believe what I believe, and you believe what you believe. You claim you are right, I claim I am right. It gets us no where, nor will it ever get us anywhere.
-- Shane X (shane2000x@hotmail.com), April 10, 2003.
Shane?Then why make any discussion if neither side is going to convert?
I figured that you were wanting to find answers that would sort out your troubles.
rod
-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), April 10, 2003.
RodI didn't make any discussion here about which religion is the best. I merely defended my beliefs.
If you are referring to this topic in general, I didn't want to argue about anything...I was merely reviving an old topic I found interesting.
I don't have any religious troubles.
-- Shane X (shane2000x@hotmail.com), April 10, 2003.
Shane X,You said the pre-Christian pagans were not Anti-Christs...I don't know if you mean other pagans are Anti-Christs. If that is what you mean, I have to disagree.
Based on the chat here I assume you, Shane, are a pagan or member of an Eastern religion, I'm guessing...Of which are you an adherent?
Your concern I quoted above is not what I was implying. Modern pagans, New Agers, Modernists, and the like are not equal to Satanists. Like the pre-Christian pagans, these modern groups have some truth in them, except the Satanists do not, as you mentioned. Muslims could join Catholics on the war against drugs in our schools. Catholics can join Fundamentalists in the fight against abortion. New Age-Hindu composite belivers can join Catholics on fighting domestic violence or fighting in a literal war against an evil dictator.
The term anti-Christ should be defined clearly by the debaters if it is going to be the point of contention. When I mentioned it above I was using it as an example of the extreme opponent or distilled opponent or the opponent that will be manifest just before the return of Christ. There may be individual anti-Christs among the individual ranks of any religious group. Professed satanists are simply the ones who have shed all their sheep's clothing and are obviously anti-Christs in total.
The common individual can have a little anti-Christ in them. Remember Jesus to Peter: But turning and seeing his disciples, he rebuked Peter, and said, "Get behind me, Satan! For you are not on the side of God, but of men." Mark 8:33 and Matt 16:23 Here, Jesus says men (or mankind) are Satan or the anti-Christ. But of course context is needed. We know all things are possible with God's help. Without help we would all be fast becomming anti- Christ's. So here, in Mark and Matthew, any sin is the manifestation of the anti-Christ in that individual who sins. But to permanently label a person or a group an anti-Christ...well it would seem that only God can do that or the individual(s) themselves may "come out of the closet" after they become so hardened and admit that they are Satanists.
Anyway, a definition of terms is in order.
Sincerely,
-- Mike H. (michael.hitzelberger@vscc.cc.tn.us), April 10, 2003.
Mike:I kinda don't like the term "Eastern Religions"...I dunno, I just don't like it. I'm either a Wiccan, or Witch, or Celtic Neo- Pagan...I'm not 100% sure, I'm still studying it all (I've made a choice to enter that cluster, but I haven't decided what specific belief to follow).
I don't believe in the Divinity of the man who was known as Jesus Christ. If that makes me an "Anti-Christ", so be it, but I don't like to be judged that way.
You can all claim I'm "going to Hell", but it really won't do you any good. At least I don't pretend to know what happens after we die. I believe in the Summerland and reincarnation, but thats always open to debate...its not "if you are good, you go to Heaven, if you aren't, you go to Hell".
-- Shane X (shane2000x@hotmail.com), April 10, 2003.
Shane X,Anyone's current faith situation depends on how they have been graced to come to that faith plus how they have responded to that call. So you, Shane, may have never gotten a spiritual call similar to my own. So I cannot "judge" how my God views you, I just don't know for sure. Not knowing anything else about you, I have to assume you have not gotten any necessary helps which would have led you in a direction other than the one you are on now.
Regarding heaven and hell it is always helpful to use natural analogies to this. Both of those places, whether one considers them imaginary or not, must at least seem reasonable based on one's ordinary experiences. If I work hard for a good goal, such as a college degree, I may need to suffer but the effort will reap reward in future job satisfaction and income. That is like our spiritual struggles that lead to heaven. If I am lazy and wasteful of things given to me, if I self-indulge beyond my needs, then I will likely face long term consequences such as poverty or illiteracy in the case of not obtaining an education. Some consequences may be reversible and some may be irreversible. Jumping off a huge cliff would be a thrill for half a minute but then...the reward for my foolishness would be a permanent disability. That is like any lack of spiritual struggle that leads to hell. So heaven and hell should not seem foreign, out of the blue, far-fetched etc. They both stand up to everyday logic that even children understand. If it were not for pain and trouble resulting from my own actions or inactions, I'd likely never be motivated enough to get out of bed in the morning.
Sincerely,
-- Mike H. (michael.hitzelberger@vscc.cc.tn.us), April 10, 2003.
I've gotten a spiritual call, all right...I think many of religions similar to mine call it the "Charge of the Goddess" or something.I liked how you said "my God"...could that mean you aren't close-minded enough to totally discredit anything I say, and at least say "my God" to differentiate between the God you believe in and the God and Goddess I believe in?
-- Shane X (shane2000x@hotmail.com), April 11, 2003.
Shane XI liked how you said "my God"...could that mean you aren't close- minded enough to totally discredit anything I say, and at least say "my God" to differentiate between the God you believe in and the God and Goddess I believe in?
Yes, I said it that way for the sake of discussion between you and I. I am not trying to imply that I am a poly-theist because that would not agree with my belief that God is without limits. My God has to be beyond me and humans. So God is without limits. If God has no limits than there could not be a second God-head. This is because there would have to be some difference between the two gods and the one could not be what or where the other was. However that idea is in opposition to my first belief that there is a limitless God.
So when I say "my God" I mean the God of my understanding, the God as I would describe him from my knowledge and experiences. I think I am just trying to come to your level enough so we can connect.
>;-)
-- Mike H. (michael.hitzelberger@vscc.cc.tn.us), April 11, 2003.
That's exactly what I meant...I remember my cousin (an extreme Christian fundamentalist) was in a discussion with me about religion (not just Christianity, but all religions). This was before I had officially decided to change religions. I said "the Christian God" when referring to the God Christians believe in, and she got mad, saying "its not 'The Christian God', its 'THE GOD'". I had to calm her down...
-- Shane X (shane2000x@hotmail.com), April 11, 2003.
(an extreme Christian fundamentalist) was in a discussion with me about religion...I had to calm her downThat's understandable. Calm or solid reasoning is not a strong point of fundamentalists. Actually it's not a strong point in myself but I am really trying to use good reason more and not let selfish emotions run riot in me. Reliance on the Church authority helps with that. I am a re-vert or reconverted Catholic. Raised Catholic, lived the secular life for 20 years, then came back to God in the last four years. It is a trademark of newcomers to be overzealous, which I have been recently. So in dealing with such people I try to think, here is a sick person, I would not treat a person in a hospital bed with disrespect so likewise I must help this angry person as best I can. Ya know, there but for the grace of God go I.
-- Mike H. (michael.hitzelberger@vscc.cc.tn.us), April 11, 2003.
There's an interesting school of thought about Pagan and Christian religious sections...here me out, without automatically closing your mind, 'kay?Okay, this is just "theory", but here I go. In both religions, there is a supreme, infinite being (Christianity = God, Neo-Pagan religions=The All/Divine). Also, these infinite beings are multiple beings in themselves...in Christian religions, it is God being the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, while in Neo-Pagan religions, the All/Divine is the God and Goddess. Now, about the many other deities in pagan religions...many believe they are 'aspects' of the God and Goddess...and since the God and Goddess, according to Neo-Pagan religions, sort of "make up" the All/Divine, and in Christian religions, the Father,Son,Holy Spirit "make up" God, wouldn't it kind of make some sense, on some level, that maybe, just maybe, they are the same being?
Note that I'm not saying thats right, or that I believe that...I'm just throwing a theory out there. I've read up on this...the two religions have such similarities its startling...
-- Shane X (shane2000x@hotmail.com), April 12, 2003.
Shane XI did "hear you out", I understand your point. Yes there is similarity. And if the pagans had the same theology about the persons that make up their God or who work for their God as the Catholic Church had about the Trinity and saints than we'd have some more to discuss. However, the similarity only goes as far as the post you have just now typed. Looking more in depth we find that they become dissimilar rather than keeping that similarity going.
I grant you though that the simililarity we see has importance. It means that if the Catholic Church is totally right, than pagan religions cannot be totally wrong. There is some good in them too. And the reverse would be true also, theoretically.
-- Mike H. (michael.hitzelberger@vscc.cc.tn.us), April 12, 2003.
Hi Shane.The reason for similarities in paganism and Christian religions is because Man, when left to his own device, is limited to his congnitive abilities. But, what seperates Christianity from paganism is INSPIRATION. Try to have an open mind about this.
rod
-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), April 13, 2003.
The reason for "similarities" between paganism and Catholicism is that there are so many varieties of paganism, with such a wide range of beliefs, that there is bound to be some form of paganism that is remotely similar to Catholicism on any specific point you care to name. There are forms of paganism which worship any possible number of gods, from one to thousands. Therefore it is no surprise that some form of paganism has invented a "triune" God. Many forms of paganism involve worship of the natural world, and water is a central theme of nature. Therefore it is no surprise that a few of the thousands of pagan cults came up with something that looks superficially like baptism. Thousands of pagan religions, each with multiple feastdays or festivals, means that there were some pagan rituals on virtually every day of the year. Therefore it is no surprise that the days chosen for feastdays by the Catholic Church overlap some pagan feastdays. Most pagan religions offered some manner of sacrifice to their "god(s)". So it is hardly a surprise that some mysterious cult in Egypt used round wafers of bread, symbolizing the sun, in their worship. And so it goes. Anyone who is looking for similarities is sure to find "similarities" between Catholicism and SOME form of paganism. Such similarities are hardly amazing. What would be truly amazing, given the huge diversity of pagan beliefs and practices, would be an absence of any superficial similarities to Catholicism. But, it is as true in religious anthropology as it is in biology - similarity in form does not necessarily indicate either similarity in function or common ancestry.
-- Paul (PaulCyp@cox.net), April 13, 2003.
Rod: Um, Pagan religions have inspiration too...I have an open mind. Having an open mind is very important in my beliefs.Paul: You know, Paul, no one on this site aggravates me more than you...for one thing, stop saying "Pagan cults". No form of paganism is in any way cult-like. A cult is where people blindly follow one leader and his/her ideas. That is most definitely not pagan.
Also, Paul, why do you insist its blind chance, or whatever? For all you know, YOUR God and religion could be false. I'm not saying thats what it is, I'm just saying that you shouldn't knock things like that. I openly say I don't believe your religion is the one right for me, but I don't go attacking your religion. All I wanted on this board was a simple discussion...not an all-out religious brawl.
-- Shane X (shane2000x@hotmail.com), April 13, 2003.
Hi Shane.You wrote this: "I have an open mind. Having an open mind is very important in my beliefs. "
If this is true what you say, then you must accept the fact that Christianity is based on the INSPIRATIONAL TRUTH FROM THE ONE AND ONLY TRUE GOD. If you are opened minded, you will see Christianity as the truth. If you are willing to find similarities, you must then be putting your beliefs on the same plane as Christianity. At least you are heading in the right direction...
rod
-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), April 13, 2003.
JmjPaul, unless you prefer for this thread's conversation to end, could you please respond to the comments and question that Shane X addressed to you (two posts above this one)?
Shane, I think that your bellicose response to Paul does not serve your cause well. The fact that he (one of the most mild-mannered and best-informed people here) "aggravates" you is a sign that he deeply bothers your conscience. He knows how to say things that make you doubt your current position, and that is painful ... it "aggravates" you. Maybe you need to consider the possibility that Paul is right and you are wrong.
Shane, you wrote: "All I wanted on this board was a simple discussion ... not an all-out religious brawl."
I just read this whole thread, Shane, and their was no "brawl" of any kind. Again, this appears to be a case of defensiveness on your part -- something that a person with a weak position demonstrates when he/she cannot defend that position with convincing words. Please remember that this is a Catholic discussion forum, that Paul is a Catholic clergyman (deacon) and the moderator here. If you can't show the necessary respect, I'm sure that you can find a Wicca Forum somewhere.God bless you.
John
-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@Hotmail.com), April 16, 2003.
Rod: Um, no, I don't, because its not true.J.F.: I didn't mean that he bothered my conscience or made me doubt things, I meant that his stubborn position irritated me. You say I should look at the possibility that I am wrong and he is right, well, maybe YOU should look at the possibility that YOU are wrong and I am right. No, not interested? Thought so...
You claim I must be wrong. Well, I don't believe I am. In all honesty, there is no proof one way or another than any religion is the only true religions, or that it is right at all. You can claim about how "Jesus walked on water, healed people, etc., etc." but, in all fairness, you know that from the Bible, which is something that, although you believe in, is, in no way, an undisputed historical database. It deals with faith, no pure fact. Who knows? Maybe it is pure fact. I don't believe it is, but I'm not so arrogant as to say it is, without a doubt, wrong. Can you say the same about my faith?
As for the brawling...I may have exaggerated, but I was speaking figuratively...
I'm trying to show respect, but very few people give me any respect.
-- Shane X (shane2000x@hotmail.com), April 16, 2003.
Shane.I hope that you can understand that I do have respect for you. I hope that I am not included as being disrespectful towards you. I would not lie to you or make any attempts to fool you. If we were standing face to face, I would still tell you if you were wrong. And, if I were wrong, I would expect you to tell me likewise. I think that respect requires honesty.
Are you trying to convert or confuse people on this forum?
rod
-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), April 16, 2003.
Rod: I believe you are wrong, that is correct. However, I am not trying to convert people- I think that it is wrong to convert others.
-- Shane X (shane2000x@hotmail.com), April 16, 2003.
Shane Ive just found outthe flat Ive moved into the girl is a is a "white witch".. whatever that means, but she has lots of books of spells and nature and is generally a bit of a head case. Is there are a close link to witchcraft and paganism?
-- Kiwi (csisherwood@hotmail.com), April 16, 2003.
Kiwi: First off, there is no such thing as a "white witch". I assume you mean a witch that does no harm...well, technically, NO witch does harm. Being a witch means respecting all life, and doing "harm to none". However, there are many who call themselves witches, yet do harm...anyway, no magick is "white or black", nor is a witch "white or black", unless you mean skin color. Its just all about the consequences...magick that provides negative effects results in negative consequences for the caster, and vice versa.Anyway, to answer your question about witchcraft and paganism, yes, they are closely linked, in most cases. Witchcraft is a religion, however, the practice of magick is not...if she just practices magick, but doesn't practice the religion, I don't *think* it's linked with paganism, or at least not nearly as much. Do you understand? I might have said it a bit confusing...ask if you need clarification.
I really don't like how the Bible portrays witches as evil...many people think of witches as people who call upon evil forces to commit evil, magickal deeds, when, in reality, it is in no way true...we use our own inner strength, and the strength of our deities, to perform acts that we take responsibility for...its not really "good or evil", in the way people normally view it as.
-- Shane X (shane2000x@hotmail.com), April 16, 2003.
Dear Mr X:
Or Shane. I find it significant that along your way to pronouncing definitively on all the Catholic-must-be- Pagan suspicions you entertain,You acknowledge the clear necessity of faith for realizing the truth in Catholicism (the Church).
If you read the gospels you must know by now Christ demanded our faith. If we lack that faith, we're lost. Why do you reject the truth? Is it for lack of faith?
-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), April 17, 2003.
Shane.Your words and thoughts are confusing. You have no center. You can't decide which side (good or evil) to stand on. If something is a little bit pagan, it is pagan. If something is a little bit evil, it is evil. Stop slithering around with your practices. Either be evil or be good. You are a mass of confusion that is trying to confuse others even if you can't admit it. Sometimes people do evil things; you deliberately do evil as a religious thing and have no desire to correct things. Is this you?
Have you decided which one of us will become the target of your "magick"? You are a Wiccan aren't you?
Stop deceiving us with your tactics. It isn't us who have been disrespectful. You are the one.
Have you Catholics forgotten the "Lord's Prayer"?
"...deliver us from evil."
rod
-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), April 17, 2003.
Eugene: I never said "Catholics must be pagan". And I don't have a lack of faith, I just have faith in something else.Rod: Okay, Rod, first off, I never said I did evil. I just said there was no such thing as a white or black witch, nor is there such a thing as white or black magick. I'm not evil. I can clearly state that right now. (ewww...side note: I just found a tick on my neck...) Anyway, I suppose I might be a Wiccan...I haven't fully decided on what section of Witchcraft I am in, although all of my beliefs fall on that line. For now, I can just be called a witch, I guess. I'm not "just a little bit pagan", I AM pagan. I don't do evil as a religious thing, deliberately or not. I simply believe in different deities than you do, and I give my respect to them in a different way. None of that is evil.
What do you mean, which of you will become a target of my magick? Its against all my beliefs to use any sort of spiritual effect on another person without their consent.
-- Shane X (shane2000x@hotmail.com), April 17, 2003.
Shane- "What do you mean, which of you will become a target of my magick? Its against all my beliefs to use any sort of spiritual effect on another person without their consent. "Uh huh. I remember reading something similar to this in Genesis. Remember the serpent and his little talk with Eve about the fruit? It's just a matter of time for a weak person to give their "consent". And then, your little "field day" will begin. Shane, your "magick" is nothing but evil. You don't consider it evil, but it is. We pray for thanks and for our part in fulfillment of God's will. You chant for energy or "magick" for YOUR will. You are a Witch by your own definition and words. SATAN STAND BEHIND ME. Shane? Reject your evil ways.
People! Either this Shane is a TROLL or you all enjoy flirting with WITCHES!
Do you not fear God
-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), April 17, 2003.
Rod: How DARE you. I am not evil. Do not call me evil. I do NOT harm others, nor do I have any inclination to. I WILL not harm another soul, save the possibility of necessary self-defense. I do NOT worship any evil beings. I do NOT serve any evil beings in any way. Nothing about me is evil. My magick is not evil. Do NOT call me evil. I am a Witch, I freely say so. But I am NOT evil.
-- Shane X (shane2000x@hotmail.com), April 17, 2003.
Did I see you say you have ''faith'' in other things? Then you have no faith in Jesus Christ. He asks us to place all faith in Him. Otherwise we will be lost. You will then be LOST, damned, for not having faith in Him. Your witchcraft, leaning, belief call-it-what-you-like will not give you life. It's fortunate for you that you have been sent into this forum. Here is the true faith.
-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), April 17, 2003.
What do witchcraft, Wicca, magick, Silva mind control, transcendental meditation, spirit guides, psychorientology, self-actualization techniques, vizualization, Yin-Yang, occultism, ayurvedic medicine, psychic surgery, goddess worship, alchemy, course in miracles, spirit guides, animal guides, aura therapy, avatars, reincarnation, channeling, co-creation, crystal power, enneagram, divination, earth temples, guided imagery, necromancy, parapsychology, out-of-body experience, pyramid power, spirit lovers, and transpersonal education have in common? Plenty. They are all gnostic manifestations of the neopagan New Age movement, which promise personal power over one's life, destiny, and the world at large. As such, they all attract adherents from that significant portion of the population who suffer from feelings of powerlessness, helplessness, and impotentency in their lives. All such methodologies and philosophies offer solutions; and all provide only illusions of that which they offer, for they base their promises on mythological entities and non-existent energies. They are feeble, vacuous, manmade counterfeits for the infinite power of the living God, who alone created the universe from nothing by an act of His will. God makes His infinite power, not a mere illusion of power, available to every person who turns to Him. He has promised "you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes upon you" (Acts 1:8), and "with God, all things are possible" (Matt 19:26). He has also told us "apart from Me you can do nothing" (John 15:5), a truth that is sadly evident in the futile efforts of so many to find fulfillment in the empty promises of New Age spirituality. How sad it is that so many people are drawn into ungodly pursuits, blindly following after unfounded, illusory promises by impotent charlatans who cannot deliver, vainly seeking that which only God can provide, while God Himself promises them "seek ye first the Kingdom of God, and all else shall be given you as well" (Matt 6:33).
-- Paul (PaulCyp@cox.net), April 17, 2003.
Eugene: You are wrong. My faith is perfectly acceptable. It is in no way evil, or wrong.Paul: See above. Also, yes, there are similarities, but a lot of it comes from the same sources, just like Catholics and Protestants come from Christianity. I'm not "going to Hell", or anything, so back off. I'm not evil, and neither is my faith.
-- Shane X (shane2000x@hotmail.com), April 17, 2003.
You can be as terse as you like, Shane; but you are absolutely in the wrong. I said your ''faith'' is hopeless, and you say it's perfectly acceptable.Acceptable to yourself alone. You aren't god and you can't even demand faith in the first place. But God certainly can, and you substitute faith in yourself for faith in the One you owe it to, your creator. What's more, your perfectly acceptable faith leads to nothing. It will not save your immortal soul.
Jesus Christ has promised His followers eternal life for our faith in Him. We give Him our faith, and we are saved through Him. You aren't saved by your ''perfectly acceptable'' faith. It will damn you. Once again: You are wrong. I was right.
-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), April 17, 2003.
Eugene: You twisted everything I have said. I don't believe the faith is for myself. I have faith for my creator, the All and Divine- -a being who seems to be VERY similar to your God...many schools of thought call them the same. I won't be "damned to Hell", simply because I believe it doesn't exist. I believe in the Summerland, and reincarnation. Who are you to tell me what goes on in the afterlife? You know no more than I do. It is just what we believe. You believe people are either "damned to Hell" or "ascended to Heaven". I believe people go to the Summerland, then proceed to reincarnate. In all worldly senses, you know nothing more than I do.My religion and beliefs are not worthless or wrong. Stop calling them wrong, and I will stop calling your religion and beliefs wrong. You can't persuade me to "convert to the one true religion", because I believe there ISN'T one true religious system. I believe every spiritual path is, at least, somewhat valid, although many Witches like myself have predictions about what will happen to Christianity in the future...interesting theories, they are :P. At any rate, stop saying I am clearly wrong.
-- Shane X (shane2000x@hotmail.com), April 18, 2003.
Eugene.Tenga mucho cuidado con este, es brujo. Parece que esta jugando con nosotros. Este nos quiere pescar para entregarnos al diablo.
rod
-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), April 18, 2003.
My Spanish is a little rough, but I don't want to "deliver you to the Devil". I don't even BELIEVE in a supreme being of evil.If that wasn't what you were telling him, I apologize if I messed up in translating it, but don't try to hide your messages in other languages...
-- Shane X (shane2000x@hotmail.com), April 18, 2003.
I'm not hiding; I'm proving.rod
-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), April 18, 2003.
Proving what? That you are a close-minded bigot? Because if that was your goal, you have succeeded beyond earthly expectations.
-- Shane X (shane2000x@hotmail.com), April 18, 2003.
I grew up in an area where brujeria and sataria were common. I still see its litter. Veneficium.rod
-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), April 18, 2003.
...?
-- Shane X (shane2000x@Hotmail.com), April 18, 2003.
Does the name Kilroy bring back memories?
-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), April 18, 2003.
No, not particuarlly.
-- Shane X (shane2000x@hotmail.com), April 18, 2003.
Kilroy was murder sacrificial style by an occult years back. Months aga, three children suffered under their parents' sick mentallity--satanic implications--by being decapitated.
-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), April 18, 2003.
Satanism and Witchcraft are two entirely different things.
-- Shane X (shane2000x@hotmail.com), April 18, 2003.
STOP DECEIVING YOURSELF.Turn away from your false gods.
-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), April 18, 2003.
I'm not decieving myself. My religion and deity(ies) are not false.
-- Shane X (shane2000x@hotmail.com), April 18, 2003.
me paenitet.
-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), April 18, 2003.
Shut up or speak english.
-- shane X (shane2000x@hotmail.com), April 18, 2003.
You know what those words mean. You understand.
-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), April 18, 2003.
No, I really don't.
-- Shane X (shane2000x@hotmail.com), April 18, 2003.
Oh, Heck, Shane! --Your ''faith''-- your ''religion''. If God had revealed them, they would have truth in them, even after you'd corrupted them with your balderdash.But God revealed to us a truth which is never covered up. It isn't esoteric, or learned in secret places. A truth ratified in the Holy Person of His Son. Yours is a mock-serious pretend religion; offered to a pretend god. You are in the hands of the devil; who wishes to darken your understanding and hide the truth from you. You are no more due to ''reincarnate'' at all-- never, than a golf ball can grow arms and legs. No person ever born enters another existence, or is given a second chance in the world of the living. ''Dust you are, and to dust shall you return,'' is the Word of God. That means you spooks are mortal; and your souls must learn the hard way: Only FOUR possibilites exist after our lives are ended.
DEATH
jUDGMENT
HEAVEN
& HELL /
-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), April 18, 2003.
Eugene: Why do I doubt you? OH yeah...becaues you are WRONG.I don't "serve the devil" in any way. I do not serve a false god/s.
Stop telling me I do.
You claim I will not be reincarnated. But really, how do you know what happens after death? You can't--you don't know yourselves.
-- Shane X (shane2000x@hotmail.com), April 18, 2003.
That rings hollow-- You claim to know all about your own ''reincarnation''. Fat chance !
-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), April 18, 2003.
We know what happens after death because God has told us. What is your authority?"it is appointed for men to die ONCE and after this comes judgment" (Hebrews 9:27)
-- Paul (PaulCyp@cox.net), April 18, 2003.
Eugene: I DONT know about my reincarnation. There are many theories, both scientific and religious, however, to support the theory of reincarnation.Paul: Your information comes from the Bible, Paul. You can't keep posting bible phrases and say "Oh, because the Bible says this, you are obviously wrong." You have no physical, logical proof that the Bible is one hundred percent true. You can say it is the "word of God", but really, how do you know? You didn't know the people who wrote it...for all you know, they can be insane fanatics who made up mumbo-jumbo.
-- Shane X (shane2000x@hotmail.com), April 18, 2003.
Please Shane:
If theory is what supports a different theory,''There are many theories, both scientific and religious, to support the theory of reincarnation~~''
. . . We are in bad shape. And, what would a Catholic have to do with ''religious theories''--?
Come to think about it, who gave us any scientific theories that support reincarnation?
Some science fiction writer? Come down to earth, Shane. I am so happy for you. You've arrived here by the grace of God. If you stay a while we can take a new broom to your head and sweep out all this trash. Welcome to the Catholic forum.
-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), April 19, 2003.
Eugene: You know, all you've done is trash my beliefs. You haven't answered any of MY questions and comments, just dismissed what I believe. Why is that? Afraid? My beliefs aren't false.
-- Shane X (shane2000x@hotmail.com), April 19, 2003.
Dear Shane,While everyone is welcome to post their views here and to ask questions, you simply can't expect that Catholic people are going to treat your beliefs as having value comparable to our own, or in fact as having any real value at all. Hopefully people will treat you as a person with respect, but the fact is your beliefs ARE false, every Catholic knows they are false, and if you are hoping that Catholics will treat such false notions as deserving of respect, then you are setting yourself up for frustration. If you want to discuss your beliefs with someone who respects them, perhaps you should try a Wicca or New Age site, or some other forum where untruth is blindly accepted.
-- Paul (PaulCyp@cox.net), April 19, 2003.
Paul: "But Paul", I say innocently, "Untruth is blindly accepted HERE." I'm sorry, but I am right, and you are wrong. There, happy? I said what I feel. You are wrong. Stop saying I am wrong, and you are right, because you are wrong when you say that.I don't expect you to say my religion is equal to your own, even though it is, but stop saying it is absolutely untrue. No one even answers my posts that ask you to look at your religion in a different light, considering the fact that it might possibly be untrue itself. You just assume I'm insane and evil. Well, tough luck for you, because I'm not. I'm right here, and I'm correct.
-- Shane X (shane2000x@hotmail.com), April 19, 2003.
You have no religion, Shane. You're caught up in a fantasy. I don't think you're insane. You're just not serious about God. He loves you just as much as He loves Catholics. You keep denying He's the true God, even though HE revealed Himself to mankind.Merely declaring you're right & others are mistaken doesn't help you. If you would examine your so-called belief, make sense out of the subject, you could begin to learn. But you keep shutting your eyes. I have the impression you're a 12-13 year old boy, playing Harry Potter.
-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), April 19, 2003.
Oh please.My religion makes more sense than yours--and yes, I have a religion.
I DO believe in a God--but he is much different than yours. Or, if you take it a step further, he is pretty much the SAME as yours...which leads to believe both religions have equal validity, since they would all believe in something that is pretty much the same thing, when you get right down to it.
I'm not mistaken, I'm not "against the Creator". I'm not a little boy "playing Harry Potter". I am, however, a witch, and I work--and will be working--with magick, both earthly and divine.
Don't knock something you haven't extensively studied.
-- Shane X (shane2000x@hotmail.com), April 19, 2003.
There is no such thing as divine magic. The use of magic is diametrically opposed to the power of God, and therefore to all that is good and wholesome - real magic, that is, which receives its power from evil spirits. But you are not into real magic. Not yet anyway. You come across as confused, not evil, which is the usual mental state of New Age wannabes. Satan however, who seeks only your total and eternal destruction, can use any ungodly practice, even those which are not directly of his creation, to bring about spiritual sickness in those who play with such dangerous toys. I know you don't believe in Satan, but that is irrelevant. Not believing in gravity won't cause you to float away. Reality is reality. God is the ultimate reality, without Whom no other reality can be fully understood or appreciated. Satan is also reality. Your "god" and "goddess", incantations, and would-be powers are not reality. They exist only in your mind. At the deepest levels, you desire the same things that all people desire - peace, joy, fulfillment. You will never find it in a counterfeit reality. God is the only source of true peace and true fulfillment, for human beings were designed to live in His Kingdom. Nothing less will ever bring you satisfaction, and the deeper into it you go, the more likely it is to bring you final damnation, utter failure as a human being. Get out while there is still time. God is waiting for you, loving you, calling you home. (Does your goddess love you?)
-- Paul (PaulCyp@cox.net), April 19, 2003.
Stop calling my Goddess imaginary! She isn't! And yes, she loves all her children!I do not, in any way, follow a being of ultimate, supreme evil. My magick is not evil. I'm not a New Age wannabe. I AM a Witch, whether anyone likes it or not. I have made that decision, and I am happy with it. I have reached the state of joy and fulfillement with my choice. You can't convince me I haven't.
I had hoped to discuss Catholic and Pagan similarities, and other religious issues, without having my religion harassed and attacked, but I see no one here is open-minded enough to do so. I understand that this is a Catholic forum, but I had hoped to at least be met on common ground, without being attacked immediately as soon as I revealed my beliefs.
-- Shane X (shane2000x@hotmail.com), April 19, 2003.
You're making me cry. Yes, Shane, a ''goddess'' from the comic books. Nothing more to be said; you'll grow up some day, I hope. As I was saying, Shane's and Harry Potter's ''similarities''. Or as Dorothy answered, ''I'm not a witch at all.''
-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), April 19, 2003.
In your Wiccan belief, you are to ask your gods for your next decision. Those gods will tell you what to do next in your life. Obviously, those gods have either not answered you or you are fighting them because you are among believers of the true God. You must still have a small thirst for God's truth. The fact that you are here speaks of the weakness in your Wiccan belief. So, let it go and test the realness or unrealness of Wicca. Are you afraid that Wicca may prove to be false?Many things have happened in my lifetime for me to accept God . Everything that I have learned about Christ is too logical, historical, and inspirational to ignore. I accept Christ because He is real.
There was a time in my life that I hit rock bottom. I truly believed that my life would never recover. I prayed. God gave me the courage and strength to pick myself up and start over again. He gave me miracles. He gave me a second chance. A wife. Two children. A second chance at being healthy. And, now, He has given me a stronger faith in Jesus. I didn't live an immoral life, but I did live a life that took Jesus for granted.
It would be very easy to ignore you, Shane. But, good things don't come easily. You have a soul. You belong to God. We don't want to lose you. You need to be included in God's grace. We know your reply, so don't say it. Just take some thoughts from what we are saying. Just as you have taken the time to understand Wicca take equal time and learn about Christianity. How can you be fair to yourself if you don't practice Christianity? How will you ever know if your claims that Christianity and your beliefs share the same God, unless you practice (worship) Christianity?
Pray for God to send you the TRUTH through Jesus Christ our Saviour.
Will you do this, Shane?
rod
Shane, I'm sure that you are a good person, but please re-evaluate your own thoughts and motives. You have nothing to lose in Christ except of course......well, you already know that
-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), April 19, 2003.
Eugene: I am NOT a deluded little boy! Stop saying I am!Rod: I WAS a Christian. I found it to be not for me. Also, the only reason I entered this place was because a link to one of these topics emerged when I was doing research via google. I found it interesting, and made a new topic...and then the topic grew into two other topics. I do NOT have any doubts or weaknesses about my religion, because it is not false. i am one hundred percent sure of that fact. Now, LEAVE ME ALONE!
-- Shane X (shane2000x@hotmail.com), April 19, 2003.
You take your fantasy so seriously no one can approach you, Shane. Pretense is all you have, not learning, or ''magick''.''NOT a deluded little boy! Stop saying I am!'' --?
Very simple; just stop posting here. No one's going to follow you to any ''witch's sabbath''. Just take a cyber hike.
_________________
-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), April 19, 2003.
Eugene: Don't DARE tell me what I do or do not have. You know NOTHING about my religion, other than the falsehoods and misinterpretations from the book you know as the Bible. I have studied from various perspectives; do THAT before you knock what I believe in. I'm not a pretentious person. I DO learn in my religion, and I DO HAVE happineness, joy, and yes, magick. Stop saying I don't unless you actually know what it all means.Um, hello? I'm TRYING to leave, dolt!
-- Shane X (shane2000x@hotmail.com), April 20, 2003.
And I'm not "trying to take anyone to a witch sabbath"! People in my religion don't convert: it is bigotry to do so! If someone is meant to enter our religion, they will have a calling! I did!Besides, I'm willing to bet you don't even know what a witch sabbath is, anyway.
-- Shane X (shane2000x@hotmail.com), April 20, 2003.
Poor Shane,
Everybody is so mean to him. (Some centuries back, he might have died at the stake.)How did you hear the mysterious ''call'', Shane? Was it a little cricket?
The devil is known to inhabit dark places, and carry away even good people. You have listened to the promptings of Satan. Your ''magick'' is dangerous. When I call you ''poor Shane'', it's because you sold your soul, and that leaves you nothing-- ''What does it profit a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his immortal soul?''
-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), April 20, 2003.
I do not in any way serve or aid darkness. Magick CAN be dangerous-- if the caster lets it. "Curses, Hexes, Love spells" are all potentially harmful--and also illegal under the Wiccan Rede. I won't harm another person, as I have previously stated. Stop calling me and my religion evil!
-- Shane X (shane2000x@hotmail.com), April 20, 2003.
The odd part is that there are more that connect themselves similarily, for example, Ostara and Easter, May Day and Beltane, holidays connect themselves all the time to Paganism which is the origional religion. If you watch certain historical shows, so on and so forth, it even says that the bible adapts stories from various times and cultures and fits it to their exact needs, so in my opinion, Christianity, and Catholocism in general, were started from pre-existing religions and adapted those religions according to their own needs, don't get me wrong, but I'll continue looking into this, I am currently a Pagan who is studying on become a Catholic and have been very interested in the similarities myself.
-- Eithne (silver_goddess7@bolt.com), April 21, 2003.
Also, yes, please stop dissing each others religions, research and then ask questions, thank you. P.S.-The Goddess isn't out of a comic book, She existed way before the invention of the useless reading material
-- Eithne (silver_goddess7@bolt.com), April 21, 2003.
If this goddess is in existence (who knows?) God is her Creator. He is our Creator, and His holiness is infinite. No mere ''goddess'' has claims on infinity. God lives; He has no beginning and no end. Jesus Christ is His eternal Son; and the Holy Spirit is generated from the Father and the Son, One God forever and ever.
-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), April 21, 2003.
Okay, Eugene, we *might* be able to make *some* headway here.You said "if the goddess exists(who knows?)". This means you aren't FULLY discounting the idea of a goddess. But you also said "God is her Creator", or something.
In Pagan perspectives, the Goddess is viewed as a creation--or aspect- -of the All/Divine. And, as I stated before, many consider the Christian God to be the same entity as the All/Divine. Wouldn't that make all the pieces fit together, in a way?
-- Shane X (shane2000x@hotmail.com), April 21, 2003.
Shane wrote: "Wouldn't that make all the pieces fit together, in a way? "It would, if it were true. But, there is only one true God. So, all of those pieces would fall to the floor in ashes.
Wicca must admit that there is good and evil (as you've stated). Ordinary Man struggles between the two. Even if it is against your religion to avoid evil, your weakest will certainly be lured by evil and fall into its clutches. Your gods and goddess are nothing more than a deceitful disguise Evil has assumed. Stop calling your Wicca religion "good". Humans have the Will to be good or evil. When humans toy around with evil, they open the door to an evil that they will not be able to resist.
Eithne- How in God's creation do you expect me to stop "dissing" your insane belief in false gods? Your beliefs are wrong. Do you expect the people in this forum to take you seriously?
We believe in Jesus Christ as our Saviour and through Him we shall one day be with God and all of the Angels in Heaven.
You and your little belief are like a vapor in time. Reject your funky belief. Repent of your sins. Work out you Salvation in Christ. Pray for God's grace.
I suggest that you make multiple copy and pastes of my message because this is all you're gonna hear from me to your replies, unless you make a sincere change to your beliefs toward Chri
-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), April 21, 2003.
Lets see, Rod...um, no? You are wrong.
-- Shane X (shane2000x@hotmail.com), April 21, 2003.
---PLUNK your Magick Twanger, Froggie! --Lol!
-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), April 21, 2003.
Shane X and Eithne,Hi there, did ya miss me? :)
It might be a good thing for you to know that as Catholics we are taught that engaging in "magic" or sorcery of any kind--even channeling energy--is sinful.
Here is what makes it sinful for us: We believe that God is all- powerful. If man attempts to perform supernatural acts, or to assume supernatural-type powers, man is basically making a little "god" of himself. He is therefore, breaking the first of the ten commandments, "I am the Lord, thy God. Thou shalt not have strange gods before me."
We call upon the Lord for all of our needs, and He answers our call in His infinite wisdom. Sometimes our wills are in perfect harmony with His, and sometimes we must conform our will to be in harmony with His. If our will is not in harmony with God's will, and we choose to follow our one will, rather than His, that is "sin."
So practicing magic, calling upon other "dieties," and all those activites would be sinful for a Catholic to participate in. It would fall under the category of "idolatry."
It doesn't mean that we cannot dialog, but it does mean that there will be times when we simply won't be able to see eye to eye.
Before you think that you are being judged by me, please don't think that!--I need to explain that in order to have committed a sin, you must know that what you are doing is wrong in the sight of God, and decide willingly that you'd rather please yourself than please God. So, in order for it to be a sin, you must have reasonable knowledge as to it being sinful, and your choice to do so must be willful.
Would I say that you are going to hell? No. We cannot say that. We also cannot say that we are going to heaven. Anyone who makes that claim is guilty of the sin of "presumption." No one may judge but God alone. God knows what is in our hearts.
Eithne, I hope that all of your questions about Catholicism will be answered fully, and that all of your questions about life, you will find answered in Catholicism! It is truly an awesome religion, very community-oriented, respectful of all life and all creation, deeply rooted in history, inspirational and magestic in its rituals, well grounded in reason and wisdom.
Hopefully, you'll enjoy meeting Catholic people as well.
If they're not ferociously defending their Faith, they're usually well-read, warm fuzzy, folk. :)
Pax Christi. <><
Pax Christi. <><
-- Anna <>< (Flower@youknow.com), April 21, 2003.
Anna, Its nice to see the Catholic position being presented with kindness!
-- Jim Furst (furst@flash.net), April 21, 2003.
?"warm and fuzzy"???
I feel like a Tribble.
rod
-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), April 22, 2003.
Well, Rod, You know the Trouble with Tribbles! lol... Remember, "They'll know we are Christians by our love." Pax Christi. <><
-- Anna <>< (flower@youknow.com), April 22, 2003.
Dear Anna:
I think a contextual meaning is, we were to love one another; ''As I have loved you.'' He meant, the world would see how Christians loved *one another*.I know Jesus told us to do good to the ones who hate us, and not to demand an eye for an eye.
In our encounter with evil, however, the sweeter temper is usually taken for weakness. We must not be unjust. But we take care who is embraced as a friend.
With that said, I must admit it would be unfair at this point to label Shane X as ''evil''. I maintain he is here to learn from Jesus' disciples. Not to teach them.
-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), April 22, 2003.
....and should leave his evil ways.There are certain circumstances that require the casting out of non-believers who cause dissention.
rod
-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), April 22, 2003.
I however take much kinder to those who greet with kindness and loving "fuzzyness" as opposed to when I am met by people running after me, screaming after me, and telling me that I am a satan worshiper, when I am met by those kinds of people all I wanna do is run or attack them for fear of being baptized and not being allowed back up for air again. After all, You'll catch more flies with honey than vinagar, remember that. No one wants to be threatened into a faith, they will take much more kindly to those who are kinder to them and will therefore have a stronger chance to hearing what you are saying and possibly even converting. I was always mad when people bashed my religion and attacked me and my beliefs, I however met a person who has been far kinder and that is what is giving me the idea to convert. Blessed Be *~-Eithne-*~
-- Eithne (silver_goddess7@bolt.com), April 22, 2003.
Your gonna have to do better than that. Are you trying to convince others or yourself? There isn't a need to convince others. The statement you made about wanting to "attack" only proves my point about your Wicca beliefs. It is only a matter of time before you invite evil into your actions and thinking.If you read the entire thread, you will see how the tone became less fuzzy and more gritty. It takes two (or more) to change the tone. You are invited to change the tone and I'm sure that everyone will reciprocate.
Are you wanting to leave your pagan beliefs and convert or not?
(Your style of writing has maintained some of its "Shane-ness".)
rod
-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), April 22, 2003.
Well, what I've read tells me that paganism has always been rejected since the early times of Christianity. The Jewish faith made it a point to reject paganism. The whole concept of one God was the focal point while the rest of the world worshipped numerous gods and goddesses
-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), April 22, 2003.
Although there was a male "Shane" in a famous Western movie, is it true, Shane X, that you are female?
Would you mind mentioning if you are in your teens or twenties?
Since you were once a Christian, what made you lose that faith, and how did you become attracted to Wicca?Shane, did you realize that, contrary to Wiccan propaganda, Wicca is not an ancient pagan religion that has existed for thousands of years -- but rather a manmade organization devised only in recent times? (It has been a while since I read about it, so I have forgotten if it was started in the 19th or 20th centuries [I think the latter].) In order to appeal to sensation-seekers, despairing ex-Christians, eco-extremists, and radical feminists ... and in order to put on a front of legitimacy and a veneer of religiosity ... the creators and perpetuators of Wicca have invented a phony "ancient history," a "goddess," and other trappings.
Shane, I'm terribly sorry to see that you, in your youthful zeal, have fallen prey to this scheme. I am praying for you.
God bless you.
John
-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), April 23, 2003.
I leave this forum for just a few days, and tons of questions to answer come up...Okay, first off, I think it was Anna that said mortals should not commit supernatural acts, because it is, according to the Bible, sinful. Well, technically, magick is NOT supernatural...it is merely, in all forms, the pagan equivilant to a prayer.
Also, I know Wicca is a moderately newer religion...however, we don't say it is the oldest religion. The concepts of Wicca are present, however, in it's ancestral religions...Wicca is merely one of the newer forms of it.
Sorry, but I have to maintain that I'm not here to learn about my "evil ways", as you like to call them. I'm not evil, I"m not "sinful".
I'm going to check other questions...I forget everything asked/accused.
Also, where did you get the idea I was female? I'm male. The female spelling that has the same sound of my name is "Shayne".
-- Shane X (shane2000x@hotmail.com), April 23, 2003.
JmjShane, you wrote to me: "... where did you get the idea I was female? I'm male."
Well, for three reasons ...
First, I have never before heard of a man pursuing Wicca.
Second, you repeatedly called yourself a "witch," something I have never heard a male call himself.
Third ... well, I'll keep this one to myself, because you would probably be offended by it.God bless you.
John
-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), April 24, 2003.
As for the whole male witch thing, they do exist and they do call themselves witches because for one to call oneself a warlock is to call oneself a betrayer of the craft, however, the name "warlock" is often confused to mean a male witch.Blessed Be-
Eithne
-- Eithne (silver_goddess7@bolt.com), April 24, 2003.
If you kids were all pennies, nickels and dimes, you could change the world.
-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), April 24, 2003.
I'm just a token.
-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), April 25, 2003.
Eithne (sorry if I mispelled what you are calling yourself) is right. Males DO follow Wicca, and they call themselves Witches, because warlock means traitor, betrayer, oath-breaker, etc.
-- Shane X (shane2000x@hotmail.com), April 25, 2003.
JmjEithne,
I've never come across that name before. What does it mean? (I'm assuming that it was taken from a foreign language, though I realize that you or your parents may have made it up.)Also, I've noticed that, twice, you have used a phrase that I have associated with Wicca since the 1980s -- "Blessed Be-".
In English, this is not a complete sentence, because it has no "subject." One must say what or whom should be "blessed."
For example, in Catholicism, we have Benediction of the Most Blessed Sacrament, wherein we adore the exposed Body and Blood of Jesus, our God, under the appearance of bread. At a certain point in the ceremony, we pray something called the "Divine Praises." These are about fifteen ancient invocations, each of which starts with the words "Blessed be ..." -- "Blessed be God. Blessed be his Holy Name. Blessed be Jesus Christ, true God and true man. Blessed be the Name of Jesus" [and so on].
And so, I wish to ask you what/who is the subject of your words "Blessed be-"? Can you compelete the sentence for me? Is it "Blessed be Goddess" or something/someone else? Is your invocation a witchy parody of our holy invocation, perhaps arising out of satanism?
Please know that my questions are sincere, and I really wish to know the facts here.
Thanks. God bless you.
John
-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), April 25, 2003.
Ok, excuse me, first off, I am not a satanist, second off, I know about the Eucharist of yours...ok? Third off, blessed be is just a phrase when one is leaving meaning in a positive note that "May your life be blessed" instead of saying "God bless" like Christians do. As for Eithne, it is Greek/ Gaelic and means little fire, no, it isn't made up thank you very much.Blessed be,
Eithne
-- Eithne (silver_goddess7@bolt.com), April 25, 2003.
Ok, finish answering the previous question, sure, Wicca is a more recent religion, however, Paganism is far older. I am Pagan, not Wiccan, crossing into Catholocism...blah blah blah, anyway, blessed be is used also by Pagans, like me, so it may actually out date the Christian version of it that you were talking about. Go shamans and everything else, yeah, I'm gone now for the day and will leave you alone, but again, on the last note, WE HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH SATAN, WE DON'T EVEN BELIEVE IN HIS EXISTENCE, SO HOW ON EARTH CAN WE BE SATANIST?!?! Ok then, bye now. -Eithne
-- Eithne (silver_goddess7@bolt.com), April 25, 2003.
Thanks, Eithne...interesting name, btw, as J.F. said.She's right, Wicca and Pagan religions are NOT satanism. I've probably said this before, but my uncle, a certified, fundamentalist Christian minister, has said that people cannot worship or serve or aid a being they 100% do not believe in. And, since we do not believe in "Satan", we cannot serve, worship, or aid "Satan".
-- Shane X (shane2000x@hotmail.com), April 25, 2003.
Dear Shane,One is not likely to worship an entity one does not believe in - agreed. On the other hand, if an enemy is approaching, and you don't believe he exists, then you may very well aid and assist that enemy in his purpose - which is your destruction - simply by failing to protect yourself. Of all the various views people have of Satan and his cohorts, the view that best serves his purpose, after Satan- worship itself, is non-belief.
-- (PaulCyp@cox.net), April 25, 2003.
Let's reach some common ground to call this quits on, okay Paul?I don't believe in "Satan". I believe there is evil, though, and it should be watched out for. In the event that the evil is manifested through a single being, all should be wary of that being, and do whatever possible to aid in it's defeat, at least in the regard that it does not gain control. Does this satisfy you?
-- shane X (shane2000x@hotmail.com), April 25, 2003.
Shane:
You are in denial. Believe it or don't believe it, Satan is real. He wants you blind and without the sense to believe; and evil is his intention toward you-- all other witches as well.Nothing serves his purpose better than for God's Creation to remain in darkness. Jesus Christ told us, ''I am the light of the world''. Follow Him and you'll see everything. He doesn't cast spells, He LIFTS spells.
-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), April 25, 2003.
Eugene, you couldn't be more wrong. You are so quick to assume Im wrong, when in reality, you are wrong. I'm trying to LEAVE this forum, but I won't let you get the last word. I'm sorry, but if you do, itwill be like I gave up and agreed you are right, and I can't do that, b/c it is not true.
-- Shane X (shane2000x@hotmail.com), April 25, 2003.
Shane-Why don't you just say "same to you and to infinity"? That will put everyone in check and then they can't say anything. Or, use your "magick" and make this whole thread disappear.
I don't think this community will allow you the last word; it's in the Scriptures."...and the jaws of death shall not prevail against it." (Matthew 16:18,NAB) Which, basically, means;"same to you and into infinity".
rod
-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), April 25, 2003.
Rod: You think I'm stupid. You are always mocking me, and trying to mak eme feel wron g. Well, you can't prove anything to me by using the B ible, or any o ther Chris tia n resource. Stop trying.
-- Shane X (shane2000x@hotmail.com), April 26, 2003.
As far as I am concerned, this thread isn't going to end until everyone just leaves it alone, which I believe isn't going to be any time soon, besides, who says that christians are going to have the last word, aren't they going to be taken up in the so called "rapture" and then will no longer exist on the earth, so, technically the other religions will have the last word if that so called profesy comes true. Also, where in the bible does it say "Christians will have the last word in all internet chat threads". No where, probably because the computer didn't exist. And, how on earth does all of this answer why so many of the holidays and so on are linked to eachother...we came here to answer about similarities, not bash other people religions, get over it! goodness. -Eithne
-- Eithne (silver_goddess7@bolt.com), April 26, 2003.
Eithne: That's what I said...
-- Shane X (shane2000x@hotmail.com), April 26, 2003.
Shane- You're not "stupid", childish.........yes.Eithne- You are correct in your assesment that Christians who are saved will be taken to Heaven. You missed one other thing though:
Those in Heaven will judge. So, even in Heaven the soul will have propriety over the "last word".
Those who remain will cryout and seek death, but it shall no come.
It is good that you all are now making reference to the Bible. You are heading in the right direction. Keep moving.
You all are intelligent. Use the same intellect for the TRUTH.
rod
-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), April 26, 2003.
Who are we to say what is the truth and what isn't. Shane believes that wicca is the truth while you believe that Christianity is. Just because you think your religions is the truth doesn't mean it is, religion might just be a lie all together strictly created to keep our human minds busy. We know something created us so we made up various stories. Whose to say who is right and who is wrong. anyway, I better get going for now. bye!-Eithne
-- Eithne (silver_goddess7@bolt.com), April 26, 2003.
Eithne-You would make for a lousy evangelist for your beliefs. I have faith. You can't admit that your own faith is built upon the truth--I can.
You've just claimed that neither of us can lay claim to the truth. I claim that Christianity is based on the truth.
rod . .
-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), April 26, 2003.
The Church and other denominations do deem some degree of respect for the sciences provided that those sciences maintain an awareness that God is the driving force of all that exists. Intelligents isn't a "gut feeling". I am pleasantly enlightened when science proves something that I already had faith in. The Bible doesn't need to be proved, but science seems to imply this.rod . .
-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), April 26, 2003.
What are you to say that are religion is just based on a "gut feeling"? Tell me that after I do a spell which comes to pass, that is all the proof I need, however, when you pray, it can take ages for it to come true while with spells all you need is a few days. That's enough proof for me. Bye bye now-Eithne
-- Eithne (silver_goddess7@bolt.com), April 27, 2003.
I thought we agreed to stop the fighting and discuss the similarites-- which is the reason I made this topic?You can't change my mind, and I'm not even trying to change yours. There is no purpose to what we've been posting about! This is all off-topic!
-- Shane X (shane2000x@hotmail.com), April 27, 2003.
Eithne-If you can cast your spells, then you must not have a love of your fellow man. Why don't you go into the hospitals and cast spells for all of the sick and injured to miraculously become well again?
You can't! Or, you won't. Your "magick" is fake.
We don't play around with prayer. We follow God's will. God has a purpose for all that happens and all that is.
rod .
-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), April 27, 2003.
Rod: You don't even understand magick. How can you be so sure it is false if you don't even know how it works? Like it or not, magick is real, and it is not evil. It just is.You don't understand any of the basics of magick, or any of the principles of pagan religions.
-- Shane X (shane2000x@hotmail.com), April 27, 2003.
Hi Shane X.We Catholics are forbidden to participate in any form of magic(k), divination, channeling energy, clarvoyance, etc. on the simple premise that we leave all power in God's hands.
When mere mortals attempt to exercise powers from supernatural sources, they cannot be sure whether these powers are being bestowed by God Himself, or by an imposter. (Satan and his legion) Therefore, we simply are instructed to leave it alone. Let Go, and Let God, so to speak.
That is really a watered down version of our instruction, but I think the explanation should suffice.
I realize that you don't believe an evil one exists. However, the Church has dealt with the evil one for over 2,000 years. We have trained exorcists who know the characteristics of demons and the supernatural effects they can have on humans. That's why it's just best that we not mess around with it.
From what we understand of God, He is all-powerful. He is to worshipped, and His powers are not to be "tapped into."
From what we understand of satan, he wishes to be likened to the Most High. He seeks glory, and he seeks to rob souls of union with their Creator. He will use any technique to distract them from the One Lord. He is very powerful over humans, but has no power over God.
Some of these basics you may recall from when you were a Christian, but just so you know how Catholics regard all this.
You are still our friend; you are dearly loved by our God, even if you don't believe in Him.
He is patient and loving. Perhaps one day, you will wish to learn more about Him.
As I've said before, I respect your right to believe as you wish, but I cannot say in honesty that I hold your religion to be equal with Catholicism.
Pax Christi. <><
-- Anna <>< (flower@youknow.com), April 27, 2003.
I understand everything you are saying, even if I don't agree. I don't want to change your mind about your faith, and I don't want people to attempt to convert me. Let's leave it at that, hmm?
-- Shane X (shane2000x@hotmail.com), April 27, 2003.
Ok, who said that I ever played around with spells and magick, also, who said that I ever hurt anyone? No one. FYI the only types of spells that I ever do are those of protection and healing, and they do work, but you aren't supposed to go around and randomly do them on people, you are supposed to get their permission first, also, why do you not pray for the healing of everyone, if your God is supposed to be so merciful, why does he make them sick in the first place...hmmm?-Blessed Be
Eithne
-- Eithne (silver_goddess7@bolt.com), April 27, 2003.
Eithne-Man is responsible for his sins, not God. Obviously, your understanding is not up to parr with your claims of Christianity.
I believe that those who have read this thread are already praying for you and Shane as well as for accepting God's will upon our world.
I believe that you are also allowing God to work his will in both of you by the example you are showing to know more about Him. You would have left this forum by now, but I'm sure that there is that part of you that seeks the truth. I cannot judge you, but I sure can aim you in the right direction. I won't give up on you all--Jesus hasn't.
rod . .
-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), April 27, 2003.
Eithne-You asked who ever said that you messed around with spells.
Uh....you did: "Tell me that after I do a spell which comes to pass, that is all the proof I need,"
I took that to mean that you mess around with spells.
rod. .
-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), April 27, 2003.
Jmj
Hello, Eithne.In my last message to you, I asked you what you meant by "Blessed be." You replied: "blessed be is just a phrase when one is leaving meaning in a positive note that 'May your life be blessed' instead of saying 'God bless' like Christians do."
That's interesting, but it prompt me to ask a further question. When you say, "May your life be blessed," it implies that Someone is able to bless the other person's life. Whom do you have in mind doing the blessing -- Satan? God? Goddess? The pagan gods/goddesses? If you are an atheist, not believing in a greater being who is capable of blessing, it seems that there is no point in saying, "Blessed be."
Next ... I asked you about the origin and meaning of the name "Eithne." You said that it was Greek/Gaelic for "little fire." My first reaction to this was to want to ask you if that was "little fire" in the sense of hellfire or "little fire" in the sense of the tongues of fire that represented the presence of the Holy Spirit of God at Pentecost. However, something made me do an Internet search, to see if you may be mistaken about the origin and meaning of Eithne.
It turns out to be a Gaelic (Irish), not Greek, name ... and etymologists say that it does not mean "little fire," but rather "seed" or "kernel." [You can read a discussion of its ancient meaning at http://forum.enya.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2967&whichpage=2]
More interesting to me is the fact that Saint Eithne was an Irish princess who came to be a Catholic through the missionary work of Saint Patrick. Here is part of the story, which I hope will draw you to the true faith:
"St. Patrick and his disciples camped one evening close to the Well of Clebach. On the following day the clerics rose at dawn to chant the Divine Office, and prepare for the mystic sacrifice [Holy Mass]. It would appear that ... two royal princesses were accustomed to visit the same fountain in the early morn, and on this occasion were surprised at the appearance of the strange company who were in possession of the place. They were not, however, dismayed, and Eithne, the elder of the sisters, accosted Patrick and his companions, asking who they were and whence they came. Whereupon the apostle said -- 'It were better for you to confess your faith in our true God than ask about our race.' Then, at their request, St. Patrick unfolded to them the doctrines of Christianity, which, under the influence of Divine grace, they accepted with heart and soul. Having baptized them, the saint placed on their brows the veil of virginity." [The full story is in the Catholic Encyclopedia at http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05369b.htm]God bless you.
John
-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), April 28, 2003.
Ok, May your life be blessed, I'm just saying in general, like good luck, goodness. It's alot nicer than saying "I hope you life is a pitiful meaning for existence and at the end of it you get thrown into the pits of the Abyss" Ok? yeah, that's like asking why you say "God bless"...it's just what ya do. Movin' on, I got the info about the name Eithne through babynames.com or something like that so I only went by what they said. Anyway, I'm going to stop this message now. Write back again later peeps, adios. Just to be myself, BLESSED BE! hee hee hee. bye.-Eithne
-- Eithne (Silver_goddess7@bolt.com), April 29, 2003.
I never play around with spells, I do protection and healing spells on my dearest friends and family in times of need, that's when you are supposed to, no, I don't fool around with magick, that would just be, well, stupid
-- Eithne (silver_goddess7@bolt.com), April 29, 2003.
What is the difference between spells and magick? If you do a protection or healing spell for someone you care about, what is the actual source of the healing or protection? The spell itself? If so, what is the nature and source of its power?
-- Paul (PaulCyp@cox.net), April 29, 2003.
Well, I suppose discussing about pagan religions that focus on magickal aspects is much more productive than shouting aimlessly at each other...Anyway, Paul, spells are a form of magick. The power comes from within, or from the light that exists in everything, which emminates (sp?) from the Goddess.
-- Shane X (shane2000x@hotmail.com), April 29, 2003.
Hey Now!Getting back to the point of this thread. I thought of this analogy today while at home, which might be applicible to this Pagan-- Christian similarity issue. Let me know if you like it.
If someone illegally grew pot. Gardening techniques would have to be used. In the process, that someone might learn a lot about gardening. However, in my opinion the seeds chosen for growing were bad in the first place. (If not literally than figuratively) The fruit it would bear would be drug abuse. Even though the actions are illegal and immoral and have grave consequences, all the growing techniques used are still good techniques. I could still use them today as a reformed moral citizen, to grow apples or poinsettias. Likewise in pagan religions, most (not all) of the pagan practices may be perfectly legitimate religious techniques. However, we now have a more pure fruit in mind and start with the good seed of Jesus Christ. We cultivate that Word in the same manner pagans cultivated their mysteries but since we are growing in Christ, the fruit we bear is different. So similarities in religious practices are to be expected from religion to religion. We all till the soil in a similar fashion, no harm in that. That similarity doesn't make the pure faith faulty.
How's that?
-- Mike H. (michael.hitzelberger@vscc.cc.tn.us), April 29, 2003.
Mike: Its a good analogy, one I would agree with completely...if I accepted your belief that my religion is wrong. I don't accept that belief, therefore, I don't agree with your analogy. I don't want to offend you, I'm just stating my views, and attempting to complement you, even if I don't agree with what you wrote, it is still a good analogy, assuming people accept your beliefs.
-- Shane X (shane2000x@hotmail.com), April 29, 2003.
Dear Shane,Your answer (spells are a form of magick) is what I would have expected. However, Eithne says she doesn't "fool around with magick", which would be "stupid", but she does "do protection and healing spells". That's why I asked how spells differ from "magick". Apparently there is just as much doctrinal disagreement in paganism as there is in Protestantism.
-- Paul (PaulCyp@cox.net), April 29, 2003.
Hi Mike.Good analogy, take it a step further...
How would you then characterize the farmer? The actions of the farmer would then make him righteous or evil depending on his awareness to his actions. The farmer must know what is in that seed if he wishes to plant the BREAD that will sustain him and give him everlasting life. Some farmers have great harvests while others fail.
rod .
-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), April 29, 2003.
rodYes, the farmer would be known by the yield. A pot farmer may be fooled himself, as you say, he could be unaware which would not make him guilty. However, with time he'd have to see the error of his choice in seed when he develops anxiety from worries about angry drug dealers. Followed by an meeting with the good farmer who is healthy and not neurotic.
-- Mike H. (michael.hitzelberger@vscc.cc.tn.us), April 30, 2003.
Greetings everyone,No bad dissage from me this time, I am just writing to say that I will probably no longer be able to contribute to this chat thread or it's issues that arise. I've done some praying *sigh* and I figure that it is better for my "spiritual growth" into Catholocism if I have nothing to do with the Pagan belief system anymore, which, as you can tell, shows up everytime I am in here, so, for the time being, goodbye everyone, and goodnight.
-blessed be or God bless, whichever you prefer
Eithne
-- Eithne (silver_goddess7@bolt.com), May 04, 2003.
Hi Eithne.May our respect for our true selves be mutual. Please know that I do respect you and hope for all the good things for you.
rod. . .
-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), May 04, 2003.
OK Shane, I'll go with you on that one.I too think it's interesting to consider the fact that other cultures have a deep seated need to reach out to and to know "God." Has "God" made contact with other cultures in the same way that we claim inspiration, as Christians, from God.
Kind of like the question, is there life on other planets? Makes for interesting discussion. I studied some basic anthropology back in school. The basic premise was that we could better understand our "human condition" by examining primitive cultures and the way that they evolved. One of the first similarities was that each culture almost always reached out for an understanding of "God." We have a basic need for the "one who made us."
Always thought it was interesting that the first colors to be named were always White, Black and Red. (Has nothing to do with this discussion . . . just always thought it interesting.)
As for our holidays, coinciding with previous pagan holidays . . . all I can say is that the beginnings of our faith, drew upon things that were already familiar to the early church. They had no roadmap to all things Catholic. They had no "Mass," no "Liturgy" or religious formulas with which to express their new faith. All they had is what they "knew" from Christ and what they had in their former faith traditions. Consequently, our faith tradition draws upon, or even looks like other early customs and traditions in many ways.
Christmas doesn't actually fall on Christ's birthday, it falls upon the winter solstice, and the return of the sun; a pagan celebration which was another common celebration in so many primitive cultures. I got no problems in it's origin, Christmas is or me, what it is.
Christmas is part of our Liturgy. The origins for us as Catholics and as Christians are from Christ.
Your concept is an intersting one, unless you choose to only offer closed "Catholic" thinking to it. I for one feel that it is possible, nay even preferrable to follow Christ with open eyes.
-- Leon (vol@weblink2000.net), May 05, 2003.
Hi Leon.You wrote: "One of the first similarities was that each culture almost always reached out for an understanding of "God." We have a basic need for the "one who made us."
Are you implying that Man has created the "need"?
I tend to believe that Man was given the "need" to understand God, but because of Adam and Eve being disobedient lead to a growing distance from God by the following generations. I think that the pagans looked for God in all of the wrong things. God destroyed the evil in the world, but it still lingered and grew after the flood. Paganism became a deliberate rejection of God's grace. The flood didn't teach evil anything, but it did teach the righteous man.
r
-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), May 05, 2003.
Here is a reason why there are similarities in the two religions that would otherwise seem to be so different. The Catholic religion adapted various aspects of the pagan religion in order to ease the conversion of the pagans to the new religion. If they didn't adapt some of the basic properties, far less people would have converted, and that wasn't what they were going for, thus the similarities.
-- Tiffany (white_dragon_fire13@yahoo.com), May 13, 2003.
Hi Tiffany.You really should have a look at this thread:
http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=00Aa Fs
-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), May 13, 2003.
Tiffany is quite correct. One prime example: the Easter Bunny.The Easter Bunny tradition, and the name of Easter itself, came from an old pagan holiday. The Saxon goddess Eostre (I've also seen it spelled Eastre) was the focus of the holiday. Her figure animal was a hare, and the eggs were symbols of life and fertility.
The Christian church soon saw that many people were more reluctant to leave the holidays they had instead of their gods. So, the Christian church incorperated many pagan celebrations and traditions into their religion in order to draw in new converts.
-- Shane X (shane2000x@hotmail.com), May 14, 2003.
Jmj
Shane, you are badly mistaken.1. There isn't much point in mentioning the "Easter Bunny tradition" and its origins here, since it has nothing to do with Christianity/Catholicism.
2. If you check a legitimate dictionary, you'll find that the English holy-day name, Easter, is derived from older words referring to the direction -- East -- and the dawn. English Christians did not have some old pagan goddess in mind in adopting the word "Easter."
3. It is not honest to say that "the Christian church incorperated many pagan celebrations and traditions into their religion in order to draw in new converts."
This false idea is now used differently by two camps. On one side, anti-Catholic fundamentalists use it to try to show that Catholicism is tainted by old-paganism. On the other side, neo-pagans (who have relatively recently invented their religion) use it to try to prove some legitimacy for their existence.But what the Catholic Church, founded by God's Son, Jesus, actually did was ...
(1) to "baptize" certain customs used by pre-Christian cultures (giving them new Christian symbolism) and ...
(2) to begin to celebrate Christian feasts (e.g., Christmas) at the times of pre-Christian festivals (to wean the people away from their false, superstitious ideas).God bless you.
John
-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@Hotmail.com), May 14, 2003.
Perhaps we shouldn't pray to our God, given that pagans prayed to their gods for centuries before our religion was born?? Or is it acceptable to incorporate this pagan custom into Christianity??
-- Paul (PaulCyp@cox.net), May 14, 2003.
Here is a prime example then of holiday's that the catholic church used to ease the transition, Christmas! In the Catholic and other Christian religions for that mater, celebrate Christmas as the birth of Jesus while pagans celebrate Yule as a time of the god being reborn in the form of the days getting longer. Both refer to the birth of a God in a sence and fall around the same time of the year. People have researched the subject and they believe that Jesus was actually born earlier in the year, however, they made Christmas be celebrated the day it is just so that the more ancient religions can more easily convert. Well, goodbye for now.God bless,
Tiffany
-- Tiffany (white_dragon_fire13@yahoo.com), May 15, 2003.
Hi Tiffany.You have to remember that there was a time when the early Christians had to hide and keep their worship in secret. I don't think the Christian holidays coincided with paganism in order to assimilate the pagans, but it was in order to not draw attention to their clandestine meetings( the catacombs).
I get the feeling that the next thing you might bring up will be the Gnostic doctrine.
-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.come), May 15, 2003.
Tiffany,I don't think, what you have said, if all true, says that the Catholic Church is somehow compromised in certain areas of her faith or doctrine. Maybe you are just saying there is a similarity? So be it. Noted. We are similar to cats and dogs too. We have two eyes two ears and two legs and two arms just like them.
Maybe this is a push for religiou relativism or religious pluralism. Maybe you think all faiths are fine, that there is a commonality about them and it matters not which one I use. That idea doesn't make logical sense.
"It is impossible to believe that all religions are true, without radically altering our definition of "truth." The belief that all religions are true in the sense that they all bring us to God, requires that we believe they are all false in what they objectively teach!"
Sincerely,
-- Mike H. (michael.hitzelberger@vscc.cc.tn.us), May 16, 2003.
Rod: I got my sources from many, many resources, from many religious authors. Christianity assimilated Pagan customs into their religion in order to attract new converts. Were all Christian customs based off of Pagan customs? No, I don't believe so. But some definitely were.
-- Shane X (shane2000x@hotmail.com), May 16, 2003.
Hi Shane.Rod: I got my sources from many, many resources, from many religious authors.
Which one was correct? Which one did you reject? Which ones do not conflict with each other?
"Christianity assimilated Pagan customs into their religion in order to attract new converts. Were all Christian customs based off of Pagan customs? No, I don't believe so. But some definitely were."
I believe that God spoke with certain people mentioned in the Bible. God also inspired many who are mentioned in the Bible. It wasn't a matter of deduction for these people; it was a matter of revelation. Example, Noah didn't make calculations; he followed the instructions God gave him. So, for me, the one source is God, the Only God. Christianity follows only the One True God and His revelations.
rod. .
-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), May 16, 2003.
If Christianity were to adopt Wiccan rituals or practices in order to lure you into the belief in Jesus Christ, would you, Shane, join the Church?If Wiccan rituals were adopted into the Church, how many Christians would leave the Church?
rod. .
-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), May 16, 2003.
Shane:
There is NO Christian custom, or practice or belief, BASED in any way at all, on pagan custom, belief, etc.All Catholic holy rites, feasts, sacramental customs or mentality come directly from what the Church learned originally. Learned from the apostles, who learned from Christ & the Old Testament, and brought it to us in the Gospel.
Older or more pagan concepts were always set against the works and teachings of Christianity. But in a so-called civilization long established, these pagan things were deeply ingrained into custom and practice of entire populations.
With almost no prospect of just stamping them out completely, it became clear by the light of the Holy Spirit the less noxious of them could be assimilated into approved Christian practice.
They were baptised, as Mr. Gecik has said; for good Christian consumption. (Like a wild beast, which can be cooked and made edible.) Whereas, before they were bad; being falsely held as religious or holy things; or holiday merriment. --By pagans!
-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), May 16, 2003.
Rod: You can believe God inspired all of the Christian customs, etc, but it is a historically documented fact in neutral databases (and religious databases) that early Christians adopted pagan rituals in order to gain new converts.Also, you asked if I would join Christianity if it adopted Wiccan rituals. No, I would not. When Christiany first started, Pagans joined early Christianity because they were more reluctant to leave their rituals and celebrations than they were about leaving their gods. I don't feel that way. I know many Christians would probably leave the church if it adopted Wiccan rituals, although Christianity practices customs that are similar to Wiccan rituals, at least tampered down ones.
-- Shane X (shane2000x@hotmail.com), May 16, 2003.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with "assimilating pagan customs", either for the purpose of making the transition to truth easier for pagans, or simply for the sake of retaining what is good while rejecting what is evil. The mere fact that pagans did something doesn't make that action inherently pagan. The fact that a given people didn't know WHO to worship doesn't necessarily mean that all their ideas about HOW to worship were therefore intrinsically evil. We are talking about practices here - not beliefs. As I said above, the most obvious example is tha matter of prayer. The fact that pagans prayed to their false gods should not prevent us from praying to the true God. Likewise the fact that pagans used candles during their worship doesn't mean that Christians have to avoid using candles. Adapting the pagan custom of using a gold ring to symbolize the marriage bond is likewise perfectly legitimate. And choosing the date of a pagan festival for a Christian holy day is also an inherently neutral gesture; and if such a decision resulted in the salvation of many former pagans, contributing to their entry into God's Church, then thank God for the wisdom of His Holy Church in choosing such a date!
-- Paul (PaulCyp@cox.net), May 16, 2003.
Well, Paul, we don't usually get along, but at least we agree somewhat on this.
-- Shane X (shane2000x@hotmail.com), May 16, 2003.
All things that we do are for the glory of God. If I'm in a grocery store stacking boxes and I do the best that I can because this is what God expects of me (to do what is right and honest), then I live my life doing things for the glory of God. Now, this applies to all the things we do in life. But, there are certain things that we MUST do as prescribed in Scriptures. Rituals are for the glory of God. And, I worship Him in my prayers.rod. .
-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), May 16, 2003.
Shane X,Just be clear on this. What Paul said doesn't mean that the Catholic Church comprompised her teachings concerning the Gospel Life. Catholics didn't become exactly like pagans in all ways in order to win over pagans. That's absurd. Listen to St. Paul:
1 Cor 9:20 "To the Jews I became as a Jew, in order to win Jews; to those under the law I became as one under the law--though not being myself under the law--that I might win those under the law."
When St. Paul said, "I became as a Jew"-- he meant in things not defined by the law, but by Jewish usage. Not Judaizing in essentials, but in matters where there was no compromise of principle.
Sincerely,
-- Mike H. (michael.hitzelberger@vscc.cc.tn.us), May 16, 2003.
Ok all, here is another example of the Christian church and early pagan traditions...heard of Valantines day? I know that it doesn't sound like a Christian Holiday, and it kind of isn't, but the older Christian church changed it from the origional pagan tradition of, I do believe, Rome with the men choosing from a hat different girls names for certain reasons of which I'm not going into. The Church found this "custom" wrong and therefore changed it so sending valentines and name it after the popular saint, St. Valentine.Also, if you do enough researching of all of the religions, as my group has decided, you will discover that you can actually take every religion and role it into one, the religions are that similar. My friend is actually thinking about doing this task at one point in time. Anyway, I have to go, bye all.
-Tiffany
-- Tiffany (white_dragon_fire13@yahoo.com), May 16, 2003.
TiffanyIs it your task to find similarities in different religions only or to find the truth?
I supposed that by going through the many religions a person could eventually find an acceptable religion based on a common denominator or something. Hopefully, the truth will become obvious and stick out among the false religions.
rod
-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), May 16, 2003.
Cardinal Ratzinger, the prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, explained that there is a growing body of opinion suggesting that other religions can offer an important complement to the teachings of Christianity. This is an erroneous belief, he said, and his Congregation prepared the new statement to affirm "the full and definitive revelation of Christ."The cardinal pointed out that many people today view the Church's traditional claim to be the unique and universal means to salvation as "a bit of fundamentalism which is an attack on the modern spirit and a menace to toleration and liberty." Because of that attitude, he continued, many people see ecumenical dialogue as an end in itself. "Dialogue-- or rather the ideology of dialogue-- becomes a substitute for missionary activity and for the urgency of an appeal to conversion."
This mistaken notion of dialogue, Cardinal Ratzinger observed, emphasizes not a search for objective and absolute truth, but a desire to put all religious beliefs on the same plane. And such dialogue gives rise to a "false idea of tolerance," which allows respect for other beliefs because it rejects the possibility of any objective truth.
-- Mike H. (michael.hitzelberger@vscc.cc.tn.us), May 17, 2003.
above post. Publication: Vatican Update From Catholic World News Date: September 5, 2000
-- Mike H. (michael.hitzelberger@vscc.cc.tn.us), May 17, 2003.
Many Catholics (and non-Catholics) today are open to the syncretistic tendency precisely because they are unable to appreciate the link between spirituality and community. They no longer see commitment to the historical Church as being of any particular importance. They may have a certain preference for the Catholic form of religion because of its ritual, but nothing more. Just as they are physically and socially mobile, so they are religiously mobile. They dabble in various spiritualities. They want to be free; they don’t want to be “tied down,” to take a definite stand.Thus, the notion of the “searcher” is so popular today. “Searchers” are those who have freed themselves from the limitations that commitment to a historical tradition involves, in order to be free to search for the “eternally true” which transcends all historical religions. But what value is there to the “search” unless, at some point, it can be brought to a successful conclusion? For the notion of the “search” to be spiritually nourishing, it must include the capacity to commit oneself to specific truths which answer the search when they are encountered.
It is difficult to see how being an endless “searcher” is compatible with Catholic faith. To be Catholic is to believe that one has found the core truth about human life in Jesus Christ as He is presented to us through the life and teaching of the Church. One thereby enters into a very distinctive view of life. In an important sense, for a Catholic the “search” is over. Once the decision for the Church has been made, the Catholic stands committed to a body of religious truth to which he is even willing to witness. While an important dimension of “search” remains, it has a different character. It is the search to understand more fully the content of the faith and how to live it out.
from CATHOLICISM CONFRONTS NEW AGE SYNCRETISM by Bernard D. Green
full article here: http://www.ewtn.com/library/NEWAGE/SYNCRET.TXT
-- Mike H. (michael.hitzelberger@vscc.cc.tn.us), May 17, 2003.
Colossians 2:8See to it that no one makes a prey of you by philosophy and empty deceit, according to human tradition, according to the elemental spirits of the universe, and not according to Christ.
-- Mike H. (michael.hitzelberger@vscc.cc.tn.us), May 17, 2003.
Find similarities, I mean, after all, is that not the point of this thread, not to find the so called "Truth" because as far as I am concerned, it changes for different people
-- Tiffany (white_dragon_Fire13@yahoo.com), May 20, 2003.
Tiffany,Finding religious similarities on this thread is part of a wider topic. Our topics are first and formost Catholic topics. So we view each question as Catholics or as inquirers about Catholicism and how it relates to the true faith and our personal faith journeys. Thus this thread and all our threads on this forum are all ultimately about finding "Truth". We as a people are all about finding that "Truth" which never changes, "Truth" never changes. This is also called "Objective Truth". People's ideas about an item of truth may vary but the reality they all contemplate can't change. For example, If I have a computer terminal in front of me I can say, "the terminal exists" or I can say "the terminal does not exist". I am free to think either idea. No one can stop me from thinking as I choose to. However, the reality is that the computer terminal does exist so if my mental perceptions or physical actions agree with that real Truth and not the false truth of "the terminal does not exist", than I will be better off, happier, more at peace. I won't possibly clunk my head on a computer terminal that I think doesn't exist when in fact it does exist. Religious truth and truth about ultimate reality is no different. Conflicting ideas from two different religions, that are trying to get at Truth, can't both be right. One is right or neither are right but both can't be right if they are conflicting ideas. And we will do better as human beings, live happier, if we know the real truth.
When you said, it changes for different people. I would agree if you meant by the word it you refer to the perceptions of Truth. Our perceptions or understandings can be clear and accurate or false and misleading. In this manner there is change from person to person.
When it changes for different people both persons can't be right.
-- Mike H. (michael.hitzelberger@vscc.cc.tn.us), May 20, 2003.
Hi, I'm back. Miss me? ^-^Mike, I understand what you are saying completely. However, you have said that you look at it as Catholics. Therefore, you have a Catholic perception of Truth. Whether that really IS the Truth or not is a completely different matter altogether. There are many perceptions of Truth. People will say their perception is the right one, but that doesn't really solve anything, does it? We can all believe anything we want. There isn't a 100%, non-disputable way to determine which perception is the right one. I think we should all believe what we feel is True, but that doesn't mean it IS True. But we shouldn't go around and inform people that their perception of Truth is 100% wrong, no matter what you happen to believe, because you can't PROVE it. You can BELIEVE it, and you can put in biased reasoning, but there really isn't any one way to solve this dilemna, because the perceptions of the Truth will differ, and someone's perception could easily disprove the reasoning you have offered, at least in the way they percieve it. Does that make it the right perception of Truth? No. Does it make it the wrong perception of Truth? No. All it does is show that people have different perceptions of Truth.
-- Shane X (shane2000x@hotmail.com), May 21, 2003.
actually, shane,there are ALOT of famous philosophers who would argue that truth is NOT relative at all... that different PERSPECTIVES on truth are based on FAULTY reasoning and that the truth IS discoverable through rational/logic/experience, etc. there are very few philosophers who will claim that truth is in any way relative, or that because one person sees something differently we should let them get away with it... thats actually a challenge to the idea of morality called individual ethical relativism
-- paul (dontsendmemail@notanaddress.com), May 21, 2003.
paul, I never said Truth was relative.
-- Shane X (shane2000x@hotmail.com), May 21, 2003.
Shane XBy there fruits you will know them. Also by which religion lasts the test of time. Jesus said that his miracles of healing were one proof of the Truth of his Gospel. All the modern Western advances have flowed out of a Christian Europe. All the hospitals, universities, democracies are all possible because of the Catholic Church. That's good fruit. I wouldn't credit any of it to Wiccan or Celtic spirituality or some pagan tribe. And when it crumbles I would say it is because the people strayed from the Truth of the Catholic Church into a neo-pagan humanism.
-- Mike H. (michael.hitzelberger@vscc.cc.tn.us), May 21, 2003.
Of course people have different perceptions of truth, which is simply another way of saying that many people don't know the truth. Which is why it is essential that one's source of truth be objective and authoritative. Protestants try to make the Bible their objective source of truth - apparently oblivious to the fact that it is really their own subjective interpretations they believe. Pagans claim even less by way of objective authority. Their rationale runs more along the lines of "It sounds right to me, therefore it must be true". Perhaps this is why there are almost as many forms of paganism as there are of Protestantism. Shane claims "There isn't a 100%, non- disputable way to determine which perception is the right one." Well, of course there isn't a "non-disputable" way, since anything can be disputed. However, there is a reliable way of knowing the truth, and that is by going to the source of truth - God - and listening to what He tells us. What He tells us is that whatsoever His Church makes binding on earth is bound in heaven. That's why He inspired the writer to identify His Church as "the pillar and foundation of truth". Which is why there is still only one Catholic Church after nearly 2,000 years - because there is only one truth. Any other approach to spiritual truth is just guesswork.
-- Paul (PaulCyp@cox.net), May 21, 2003.
I'm jumping on this a bit late. When I was younger (and by that I mean 15, cause right now, I'm 22), I was really interested in Wiccia, simply because it is a really fascinating system of belief. But then, I'm always interested in any religion in general, they are quite fun to study (and by study, I mean study, not practice, cause Lord knows people on these forums read so much that isn't there into my posts). Right now I'm studying Buddism. Anyhow, I got so off track, my point was, Wicca wasn't for me because I think polytheism is just perposterous, why, I don't know... ODed on Greek Mythology as a youngster I suppose.
So anyhow, the whole point of this post was to say that I don't believe in any religion other than Catholicism. They really don't seem to hold much water. However one can learn a lot from learning someone elses religion/philosophy/yadayada.
This is a really interesting thread, Shane. Here is the clincher. This is a Catholic forum. Catholics believe that they are supposed to spread the word. That is the way it is. I hate to tell you, but that will always be something that is going on here like it or not. Yes, I'm sure it gets irritating, but if you want people to accept that you have your own beliefs, you also have to accept that they have their own, which might include trying to change yours because that is a belief of thiers. Oh yea, and it isn't because Catholics are "holierthanthou" even though it can't *certainly come off taht way some times*, it's really a look out for your neighboor, kinda trying to do him a favor thing.... Wow, that is confusing much.
Oh, and it is my particular belief that all religions have core beliefs that are the same because deep down, we are all looking for the same God, who inspires us to look for him. What regulates the path that we are on (to finding him) is oneself and ones environment.
Have I said anything taht made sense? If not, ooops.
-- OperaDivaCecilia (solosoprano@juno.com), May 21, 2003.
OperaDiva meet Shane X; Shane X meet.....have you read the Bible?Shane? Would you please invest your time in studying what the Bible teaches us?
BTW, I was at the book store when I came across "Wicca For Idiots". It is a rather entertaining book. I bought the bird book instead; birds are real.
Now, I don't know who caused you to reject Christianity, but don't give them the benefit of their destruction. Pickup a Bible today and start learning what others didn't teach you. Then, keep asking questions to people who know about the Scriptures and clear your mind of that Wicked.....uh, Wicca stuff. You are missing out in something that you really do need.
Yes, I know. You're gonna tell me that Wicca is not evil. Ok...say it.
It is.
ro
-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), May 21, 2003.
sorry...I meant "destructiveness" on you Shane. They steered you wrong or you probably didn't listen very well. Or, you just have to have it your way. Just give yourself a week or two of intense reading with an opened mind. Try to see the Scriptures with an honest heart.
Please?
rod. .
-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), May 22, 2003.
Paul, I believe it was, said that you can gain the 100% Truth by listening to God. But the fact is, how do you KNOW it is an omniscient, omnipotent high divinity (whom you know as God) talking to you? It can just be your subconscious speaking, or you could be insane, or you could take elements of spirituality and say it is another being speaking to you. You may believe it is a way to know the Truth, but you can't be sure.Rod, you just don't seem to get anything I say. For one thing, Wicca is real, even if you don't believe in anything it speaks about or stands for. From your perspective, it is false. However, it exists, and its validity is another point altogether. Also, I've told you, on one topic or another, that I HAVE read the Bible, and I really just don't believe it. And I didn't read it with a biased perspective, either...I was Christian when I read it. You are incredibly close-minded, Rod. You claim to be wanting to help people, but you just insult them, put them down, and, in reality, drive them further away from what you are trying to force upon them.
-- Shane X (shane2000x@hotmail.com), May 23, 2003.
Shane please forgive me for being such a pain in the neck. Look, it would be nice to be pals and stuff, but my so-called "closed mindedness" is a development of my faith in God. I must reject anything that goes against God. If I start accepting your Wicca, I will do you no good.Rod
-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), May 23, 2003.