Is it acceptable for the Roman Catholic Church to adopt pagan practicesgreenspun.com : LUSENET : Catholic : One Thread |
Here is tonignt's question. do you think it is acceptable to God for the Roman Catholic church to adopt pagan practices?
-- Len Lisenbee (lisenbee@frontiernet.net), February 28, 2003
I apologize to everyone for my extremely poor typing ability. The question should read, Do you think it is acceptable to God for the Roman Catholic church to adopt pagan practices?Once again, I sincerely apologize for my typo errors.
Len Lisenbee
-- Len Lisenbee (lisenbee@frontiernet.net), February 28, 2003.
I would imagine that it would be wrong to assume that God would accept pagan rituals from anyone. But, I don't believe that pagan rituals offer anything to God. It isn't the pagan ritual that is in question; it is the distance from God that is the real issue. We should be close to God in all that we do, which would make us wrong engaging in pagan rituals.Does the Catholic Church engage in pagan rituals? Everyone whom I've asked practices their faith through the Church Rituals and do not know or care if indeed those rituals are of pagan origin. They believe that all of their rituals are given by God. So, it isn't the ritual itself, but the practicing of faith that must be the closeness to God that they achieve through the Ritual.
Did that make sense? The Catholics I've dealt with do not believe that the Ritual is of any pagan origin or perpetuation. So, be prepared for the long lengthy explanations that are sure to come.
-- Rod A. Rodriguez (elreyrod@yahoo.com), February 28, 2003.
Oh.....you meant to Gof. Sorry. I thought you meant God. Disregard everything I wrote. I don't know Gof.
-- Rod A. Rodriguez (elreyrod@yahoo.com), February 28, 2003.
I have a theory about pagan rituals. It seems all too often that a false dichotomy is placed by Protestants when attacking Catholics. They only see either/or and never both/and. I could give hundreds of examples, but lets just focus on "pagan rituals".I think we can all agree that there is and always has been (and always will be) only one God and that He desires the salvation of all. He also has revealed Himself in different degrees to different cultures. He chose the Hebrews (starting with Abraham) in a specific time in history to reveal Himself in a fuller manner to prepare for the "fullness of time" and the fullness of Revelation in Jesus Christ. But that did not mean that He did not keep other cultures completely ignorant of His laws (which are written in our hearts) and who He is.
Yes, some got it wrong, and even the Jewish people seemed to deviate multiple times throughout history in following what He had revealed to them.
To back this up, we see all cultures throughout history with a longing for the divine and salvation (although the meaning of these term varied from one culture to the next) and a desire to worship and offer sacrafice to the gods and to have prayer and ritual. In these we see some common elements.
So I see God revealing His truths to all people throughout history in varying degrees and these people responding in various degrees. So just as many of the Jewish ceremonies (i.e. sacrifice of the lamb) were prefiguring what would be fulfilled in Christ (e.g. Paschal Mystery from which all salvation flows and which gave birth to the Church), some "prefigurement" can also be found in pagan cultures.
The fact that they were not the Chosen People and that some took the revelation and went the wrong way with it (just as the Jews and even Christians do to this very day), it does not mean that all the "pagan rituals" were all depraved of any good. So if we find some similarities between some elements of the Catholic rituals and Jewish rituals, that should not be a cause of scandal. It's the same God bringing to fulfillment the seed He planted in the Old Covenant which finds its fruition in the New. And also, I would contend, one should not be scandalized if some elements of "pagan ritual" would be found in the Catholic rituals. Remember, it was the same God revealing Himself in different degrees to all people of all times. So if we see something in the Catholic rituals that are similar to pagan rituals, we should compliment that pagan culture who practiced that on properly responding, in at least some degree, to the God's revelation to them and them responding to it.
My best example is the miracle of Guadalupe. The Catholic missionaries who came over to the New World to convert the pagans spent years with but a handful of converts. Then Our Lady appeared to a poor Indian, Juan Diego, and left a miraculous image on his tilma.
This image spoke perfectly to the pagan Indians. In their religion, they worshiped the Sun god, but there was a "prophesy" of one who would come to surpass the Sun god. Mary, with the cincture around her waste, representing that she was pregnant, and overshadowing the sun in the background and standing on the moon spoke a clear message to the pagans. This woman was to give birth to the long awaited superior God. They came to realize this was Jesus and the God of the missionaries.
With this one image, the missionaries were then able to convert and baptize millions of these pagans. These priest who couldn't convert but a handful of pagans where totally exhausted each day resulting from the thousands of baptisms performed that day.
(It's interesting to note that this was taking place at the same time that many Christians were leaving the Catholic Church and following the follies of Luther, Calvin and the rest in Europe. The estimate of the number of Christians to leave Catholicism at this time and the number of pagans entering into Catholicism is "coincidentally" almost identical! God seemed to be making sure that those who were throwing away that most precious gift of the True Faith were being immediately replaced by others who were open to His Truth.)
The point here is that some of what we would call "pagan ritual" and belief seems to be all in God's plan preparing them for the time of the missionaries when they would be led into the fullness of Truth.
There is no dichotomy here. Yes, some of the pagans took God's revelation and interpreted it improperly and profanded it with time (but look what the Protesants have done with the Mass!), but there were seeds of truth there, as well as with the Jews, all which have found their fulfillment in Jesus and the perfect worship in the Mass and the other Catholic rituals.
God bless!
-- Hollis (catholic@martinsen.com), February 28, 2003.
There is nothing wrong with adopting formerly pagan practices, and turning them to the worship of the One True God, provided that such practices are not intrisically evil. Again, I am speaking of pagan practices, not pagan beliefs. The problem with pagans is not that they don't know HOW to worship, but that they don't know WHO to worship. Of course there are some pagan practices, like human sacrifice as an extreme example, that ARE intrinsically evil, and are therefore incompatible with Christianity. However, other customs of pagan religion can be validly adapted to Christian worship and Christian life, and have been validly incorporated not just into Catholicism, but into more recent forms of Christianity as well. Wedding rings are a common example of pagan influence now widely adapted to Christian symbolism. Since all the early Christians were formerly either pagans or Jews, one might expect that various influences of both paganism and Judaism might be found in Christianity, and indeed they are. This is simply adapting a neutral thing to a good and valid purpose instead of its former invalid purpose. If you carry the "pagan influence" phobia to extremes, we should not be praying to our God, because pagans prayed to their gods for centuries before Christianity came into existence, so we should not be participating in this "pagan practice".
-- Paul (PaulCyp@cox.net), February 28, 2003.
I know my previous post was long-winded, but I still have one more thing to state.I made the case above that if similarities are found between Catholic rituals and pagan practices, the pagan cultures where this was found should be congratulated (instead of bashing the Catholic Church). But there is another element. There are certain feasts days (such as Christmas) that have their roots in pagan practices. This was done in an attempt to ease the conversion to Catholicism by "baptizing" pagan practices and making them Christian. There is absolutely nothing wrong in this as long as nothing contrary to Christianity was brought in. St. Xavier used this approach to convert the Oriental cultures. He dressed as the Asians and adapted much of the Latin practices and cultural forms of expression to those of the oriental culture. Once again, nothing wrong with this - nay, it should be applauded - as long as the essentials of the Christian faith are not compromised (which was not the case with St. Francis Xavier) and it makes it easier for the non-Christian to accept Jesus and the fullness of Truth. One can be too focused on the accidents (as used in traditional philosophy) and miss out on the essence. (Archbishop Lefebvre and his followers come to mind.)
One more thing is that I'm not trying to bash Protestants here. I love you, brothers in Christ. But it does hurt to see many of you try to use false arguments in an attempt to pull Catholics away from the one true Church founded by Christ. Just think of what you feel and think when you see very articulate professors and other "learned" folks show how ridiculous and out of date Christianity is. Their arguments sound pretty good if you accept some of their premises (or are ignorant of some Christian premises). That's what we as Catholics think/feel when we see you make your attempts to attack the Catholic faith. God bless you, but enough with the foolishness! Good dialogue to understand what the other believes in a true attempt to seek the fullness of Christ's teaching is fine. But unmitigated attacks against the Catholic faith for the sake of attacking the Catholic Church does not belong in this forum, in my humble opinion. But I guess some of the participants enjoy sharpening their apolgetics skills (and do quite a fine job, I might add) so I guess St. Paul is correct in saying "the Lord uses all things for good for those who love Him."
God bless!
-- Hollis (catholic@martinsen.com), February 28, 2003.
LenNo it is not OK to adopt a pagan practice and thus become pagan or more pagan like. But that answer is totally obvious. What practices are you referring to? Your question implies that you have some pagan practices already in mind and than are asking a question so that we give the obvious "no" answer, than you tell us the so called pagan practices so than you can say, "so you admit the Catholic Church is in the wrong."
Sincerely,
-- Mike H (michael.hitzelberger@vscc.cc.tn.us), March 01, 2003.
Mike,I disagree. If a pagan practice is to eat healthy, wholesome food every day (except when fasting), it is absolutely acceptable to adapt that pagan practice. If a pagan practice is to worship the divine, that does not make worshiping God unacceptable (even though the god or gods they were worshiping were incorrect, the act of worshiping of the Divine is not wrong).
If a pagan practice was to slit the throats of babies and drink the blood, then that pagan practice should not be accepted by the Roman Catholic Church.
If you read my postings above, you'll get my point.
God bless!
-- Hollis (catholic@martinsen.com), March 01, 2003.
HollisI understand, but Len was referring to the latter practices you mention. If you read his other posts on other threads you'll see he's an anti-Catholic Fundamentalist. SO you can see where he is driving at.
-- Mike H. (michael.hitzelberger@vscc.cc.tn.us), March 01, 2003.
Mike,This was the first thread of his that I read, but I was able to conclude he was a anti-Catholic Fundamentalist just by the question he posed. The problem for him though is that the folks in this forum seem to know his Catholic bashing "handbook" better than he does.
-- Hollis (catholic@martinsen.com), March 01, 2003.
Paul?Are the Catholic Rituals inspired or given by God or not? This concept has been used to counter my curiously similar questions about pagan rituals. Now, I think that you are agreeing with my hypothesis. Ask Anna.
-- Rod A. Rodriguez (elreyrod@yahoo.com), March 01, 2003.
One can be too focused on the accidents (as used in traditional philosophy) and miss out on the essence. (Archbishop Lefebvre and his followers come to mind.)I'm sorry, but this is a failed argument and a moot point. I'm not missing out on anything.
-- jake (jake1@pngusa.net), March 01, 2003.
Are you saying then that the rituals have pagan origins? It sure does sound like it because you do not give affirmation to either side. The real importants is the meaning of the ritual, which is the essence (as you mentioned). It which case, that's what I've been trying to point out. Oh, and it would be a "moot" issue for you, but not all. Yet, you still replied. So, evidently, it truly isn't a "moot" issue for you afterall.
-- Rod A. Rodriguez (elreyrod@yahoo.com), March 01, 2003.
Dear Rod,Yes, the basic "rituals" involved in the sacraments were first given to the Church by God. They have been refined and embelished over the centuries, but never at the expense of faithfully preserving those elements which are of divine origin. However the "ritual" of a sacrament is NOT the essence of the sacrament. The essence of a sacrament is the spiritual reality that occurs; the grace which is poured out upon the recipient; the inner change which the sacrament brings about in a person. The essence is never directly and immediately apparent to an observer. The ritual of a sacrament is simply the outward words and movements - the directly observable elements - which cause the essence of the sacrament to become a reality. At the Last Supper, Christ gave the Church both the essence and the essential ritual of the Mass. The supporting ritual has been expanded and developed over the centuries, to provide a milieu of reverence and truth within which the essence of the supreme act of Christian worship can occur. But the essence of the Mass remains absolutely unchanged from the Last Supper to the present day. It cannot be changed by men, because it is accomplished by God. The ritual can be changed by men, but the Church has always been extremely careful not to change those elements of ritual which are God-given and essential to the sacramental reality. Additional elements of ritual which surround and support the sacrament can be added however, and changed, and deleted as the Church discerns.
-- Paul (PaulCyp@cox.net), March 01, 2003.
It seems like at some point in time the man made ritual will be indistinguishable from the God given ritual if men keep changing things around, doesn't it? I think this is what puts doubt in those deciding to be or not to be Catholic.Would you at least consider such a probability? It is the faith that drives the actions. Do we still agree on that?
-- Rod A. Rodriguez (elreyrod@yahoo.com), March 01, 2003.
Yes it is the faith which determines the actions, including the actions and words essential to sacramental ritual; and, since the faith cannot change, neither can the essential elements of ritual. The essence of Eucharistic ritual is this:"And when He had taken some bread and given thanks, He broke it and gave it to them, saying, "This is My body which is given for you; do this in remembrance of Me". And in the same way He took the cup after they had eaten, saying, "This cup which is poured out for you is the new covenant in My blood". (Luke 22:19-20)
This part of the ritual cannot change. This is the ritual which makes the reality of the sacrament be present. But other prayers and actions are designed to lead up to this momentous act, calling our attention to it, surrounding and supporting it, explaining and honoring it. These parts of the ritual also have their valid place in the liturgy, but are clearly distinct from the words and actions given to us by Christ Himself, and are not, in and of themselves, essential to the sacrament.
-- Paul (PaulCyp@cox.net), March 01, 2003.
PaulI agree with your understanding of the Holy Eucharist and the Ritual practiced as a result of Jesus' instruction. I also believe that we should practice it in our daily lives and not limit it to the Mass. I'm not saying that anyone is wrong for reserving it only to the Mass . I've read about the Saints; some wanted Holy Communion as often as possible. In other words, people, in general, don't "remember" what Christ did for us. So, just as the Catholic Church has made it the focal point of the Mass, others should do the same.
I just wanted to make sure that we were on the "same page".
-- Rod A. Rodriguez (elreyrod@yahoo.com), March 02, 2003.
Nothing personal against any of the Christians/Catholics/Pagans that may be posting in this thread, but I think you might want to do a little more research on Paganism and these "Pagan Practices" as you are calling them. Depending on what definition of "Pagan" you are going off of, you could be entirely wrong, correct, or somewhere in the middle. I have noticed that in the societies of today, not many "christians" or "catholics" or even "pagans" actually know what paganism and "pagan practices" really are. Unless you are well researched and actually understand and know paganism, I would think one would not want to embarrass themselves by posting something false. And if you are wonder, YES, I AM a PAGAN. I follow the path of the Druid at this point in time in my life. And YES, I was raised christian, not catholic, but baptist. I have spent quite some time researching christianity, catholicism, and several different pagan religions. IF you actally know and understand what paganism is, you would know that it is not wrong, that in fact, there is no right or wrong religion....
-- anonymous (gen_ad16@hotmail.com), April 25, 2003.
Hi.Is paganism a belief in Christianity? No.
-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), April 25, 2003.
Re: In response to anonymous (gen_ad16@hotmail.com), April 25, 2003.I completely agree. I follow the wiccan faith and i stumbled upon this site during a research activity for the catholic faith in a persuasive essay. I do beleive that the people responding have some knowledge but they have not actually looked at the source of the information. Your ideas are somewhat "old standard" to now many "Neo- pagans" and such. I know of many people who believe that all religions, no matter which they are, are the correct religions to follow if they suit you. Its a theory called "Universalism" and in basic terms it means we all worship the same "God" but in different ways (its in quotes because people call it different things). In all honesty, who gave anyone the right to say one religion is the right one but "God" themself?
Now this Rodriguez guy i do beleive had that idea going, but it panned differently from what I know. Which is okay in itself. Its up to the individual to beleive what is right and wrong.
Oh and if you are wondering, I grew up a Morman, converted to Baptist at age 10 and then at 12 started researching Theology. Right now I'm a college student who researches Theology on the side. And through my research I've found that my beleifs and my heart is strongly rooted in the Wiccan religion. You'll be surprised what you find if you just go look.
-- Selene Silverwing (silverwingangel@hotmail.com), May 02, 2003.
Hi Selene.Your wrote:
"Now this Rodriguez guy i do beleive had that idea going, but it panned differently from what I know. Which is okay in itself. Its up to the individual to beleive what is right and wrong. "
Watch out for this Rodriguez guy. His questions do not reveal his true "ideas". His questions are designed to find the TRUTH.
Do you believe this Rodriguez guy is a pagan?
rod .
-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), May 02, 2003.