Some may know me already from TB2K. Please do not read this if you are a devout christian or atheist, but if you insist on reading it and you are in one of these two categories, at least please do not spend your time trying to excorsize me or get me on medication.

This is really about Carl Sagan and his movie Contact. Ever see it? If you read the conspiracy literature, Carl Sagan is/was rather widely rumored/known to be an Illuminati.

Who are the Illuminati? There is no general consensus on this. The Illuminati are considered to be the heads of the NWO (New World Order and all the various secret societies). Some believe the Illuminati to be shape shifting reptilian aliens (David Icke). Me, I believe David Icke is/was himself an Illuminati, so I don't believe he has told the truth about the Illuminati either. I get my information from both researching the internet and channelled information from the "spirit world". (I don't really get channelled information from the spirit world per se - the Being that I receive information from says she is "Goddess Venus", a title only, and that she is a 144th dimensional Divine Creator Goddess not on the "spirit plane" at all.) Anyway, my information is that Carl Sagan was an Illuminati indeed. My information is also that the Illuminati are/were darkside fifth dimensional spirit Beings. The Illuminati originally came to earth as Sitchin's Anunnaki from Nibiru 500,000 years ago, and most recently called themselves the Illuminati.

As fifth dimensional Beings, the Illuminati have always had abilities to do things that we 3D humans have not had. Their main unique ability has been their capability to leave the human body as spirit Beings and move about the spirit plane, and then return to their bodies. The human body is essentially an intelligent computer that can continue to operate in a somewhat stereotypal manner when the spirit is not present. (Explains a lot of the behavior in Washington DC - they are/were all Illuminati, and half the time they were gone--- from their bodies--- sort of a joke.)

All consciousness comes from our spirit Being, not our body. The Illuminati therefore are/were essentially immortal Beings in human terms. They have always had the ability since arriving on earth to move from one human "container body" to another, all the while maintaining total recall and awareness of their entire time on earth, which is/was about 500,000 years. The Illuminati are/were essentially immortal Beings in our terms. Also, the Illuminati did not originally arrive 500,000 years ago in human bodies. They were first large humanoid feline Beings from the 12th planet Nibiru, connected probably originally to the star system of Sirius. They were the goliaths of the bible. They long since lost those original Anunnaki bodies, and have since serially occupied human bodies. Just as Sitchin says, they genetically engineered/created humans for purposes of slave labor.

Just a side note - I keep using the past tense in reference to the Illuminati, because my information is that the Illuminati fifth dimensional Spririt Beings were "raptured" from earth last September 30, 2000, or on Rosh Hashana, aka "Judgement Day". There were 144,000 Illuminati. I won't go into this whole area in this post, but this is of course the rapture of the bible that many christians discuss. I do not believe, however, that the Illuminati knew that they would be raptured from earth permanently at this time by the higher Divine. I will say more about all this in a different post later likely. Of course we still see their former human container bodies now - my information is that the higher Divine are now operating those former Illuminati bodies for purposes of continuing karma lessons for the rest of us remaining humans.

Anyway, now to the original question of aliens, conspiracies, holograms, and Carl Sagan. Sagan's movie "Contact" is a fantastic movie from all these angles. I have watched it many times. I recommend picking a copy up for the Endtimes financial crash just about here (something to do in the Endtimes - watch the movie over and over to detect all the coded information in it, and learn about the higher dimensions). Carl Sagan's depiction of higher dimensional issues was not hypothetical. ie, I believe he knew quite first hand of what he spoke.

The entire movie "Contact" makes constant coded references to the NWO conspiracies as well as to secret societies. There is a little Knight's of Templar unicorn in the movie. There is a quite amazing discussion of the planet Venus, basis for the demonic pentogram, and a very important secret society symbol. Even though the whole movie takes place in the USA, we never see a USA flag or insignia - it is all UN white and blue. There is also quite an interesting coded reference to Y2K - watch for several references to computers as "Elmer" and you will see it. Someday I will write a whole paper about all that is packed into that movie.

In the movie, using alien provided "technology", the Jodie Foster character travels via "space/time wormholes" to a different star system and "meets" some so-called aliens. These aliens are able to read her mind and create a holographic place for here that looks like earth, with a replication of her deceased father to greet her there. The Jodie Foster character is quickly able to grasp that what she is "seeing" is an entirely holographic creation.

In the movie these aliens from a remote star system are depicted as merely more "advanced". What Sagan doesn't say at all is that they are also higher dimensional. Creating holographic realities is really a "divine" capability, a higher dimensional capability. Mortal 3D beings such as ourselves could never "advance" to such capabilities, no matter what our length of existence as a species in the universe at this dimension was. It is not surprising that Carl Sagan left this little "detail" out of the movie. The whole universe is holographic, even at our dimension. We have simply not been allowed to be aware of it at our dimension. The Illuminati were well aware of it. And they were also well aware that the universe is not monotheistic. But more about that in a different post.

Question - have you seen the movie "Contact" and do you think this is possible?

-- Iona (Iona@hologram.net), April 30, 2001

Answers

WOW!

And here I thought I was the only one who felt this way!

-- Uncle Deedah (unkeed@yahoo.com), April 30, 2001.

Iona: Your type on the Myers-Briggs test wouldn't be INTJ, would it? If you haven't taken the test please do so. I anxiously await the results.

-- Rich (howe9@shentel.net), April 30, 2001.

Contact is one of my all-time favorite movies. There's something about the sci-fi genre that floats my boat. That something is the opportunity to let my imagination run wild and free, aided by story lines which provide the necessary framework.

I see you also enjoy a vivid imagination, Iona. Where does reality end and fantasy begin? (rhetorical)

-- Rich (howe9@shentel.net), April 30, 2001.

Rich - the real fantasy is to believe that anything is "real" ie not holographic.

As far as my personality - I test out exactly at the center. I have taken that test before and am quite familiar with it. If you look into the theory of quantum mechanics/physics, it is quite compatible with what I am saying. Very scientifically compatible. There are actually theorectical physicists saying that infinite parallel worlds can exist, and that the universe is entirely holographic - ie perception is all.

-- Iona (Iona@Hologram.net), April 30, 2001.

Iona...

Does the name Rebecca mean anything to you?

-- (cin@cin.cin), April 30, 2001.

Iona,

My heart skipped a beat when I read this thread. You have jolted something back to remembrance that ocurred one year ago.

Sometimes I keep a journal of my dreams. This dream took place March 3, 2000. Here is my journal entry on that date (3/3/2000):

"Dream 2 – last evening:

I am not sure whether this is one or several dreams. I have only fragmentary recall on this.

I am talking with someone about films (movies) that are being recommended to see. One is called “Rescue.” It is a film about a building that is in danger (of fire?), and the ensuing danger that faces the occupants. I seem to remember that I enter the scenes of this film, as if I was present.

The second film or movie recommended to me is one called “Contact.” This is all that I recall.

Are these actual movies that have been produced? And am I being instructed by my dream life to see them?"

When I read your post I remembered this journal entry, and today I recall that I never followed up on this. I rarely go to the movies (about once every year or two), so am not familiar with movie titles. So there is a movie called "Contact!" Wow! And "someone" or ""somehow" I was being instructed one year ago to see it!

BTW is there a movie out there called "Rescue?"

I can hardly believe this is happening to me!

AZ

-- AZ (Just@home.here.com), April 30, 2001.

You're a wild woman, Iona. I haven't seen the movie, but I'll take a look.

I have David Icke lecturing on "The Biggest Secret." You could be on to something, at least the part about him being a disinformation agent.

He lays out some pretty sound information about the power structures in the world, and he, in this 1998 film, stated long before the primaries, that "W" would be next, on account of who he is, but then he ties it all in to relations with shape-shifting reptiles; so now when he (D.I.) is discussed, all of his work is discredited by being linked to "lizard people".

-- Withheld (toprotectthe@innoc.ent), April 30, 2001.

You're wrong. I'm an Illuminati and I'm still here.

-- Buddy (buddydc@go.com), April 30, 2001.

cin- the name Rachel means something to me, but not Rebecca?

AZ- Your response is quite amazing to me too, and I will tell you why. There is indeed a movie called "Contact" which was written and partially produced by so-called astronomer Carl Sagan, who, amongst other things worked for NASA for a time. I am myself not a science fiction fan. I probably would have never seen the movie "Contact" on my own intitiative, let alone acquired a copy of it to watch over and over. At about the time this whole thing with "Goddess Venus" started, I was simultaneously given a DVD of the movie "Contact" by a friend as a gift. So in a sense, I too was directed to see it by a synchronous "coincidence".

Rich re: Personality Type: Sensing (S) Preference for using the senses to notice what is real. Intuition (N) Preference for using the imagination to envision what is possible - to look beyond the five senses. Jung calls this "unconscious perceiving".

Actually, Rich - Goddess Venus has "taken me" on dimension shift experiences where I have had the holographic nature of our reality rather graphically demonstrated to me first hand. So, did this belief come to me via intuition? Don't think so. Think it was rather direct Sensing.

-- Iona (Iona@Hologram.net), April 30, 2001.

Iona & Rich,

Go here Stardrive.org and click on the "Notes on Contact"

-- (@ .), April 30, 2001.

Executive Orders, Hitler, and Revelation of the Bible.....Delusions of Denial, Raptures, Ascensions, DNA Recording...

-- yes (I@know.you), April 30, 2001.

do do do do, do do do do.

You have stepped into the twilight zone.

Do not attempt to adjust your set. To do so will only confuse these poor unfortunate misguided people.

-- (These@people .are nuts), April 30, 2001.

I thought Contact was a great MOVIE!! Love that sci-fi stuf.

Keyword - MOVIE. I'm fairly certain it was not a documentary........

Deano

-- Deano (deano@luvthebeach.com), April 30, 2001.

Iona, you'll find Vedic scriptures posit similar theories. Creation is a projection of light and shadows. Interesting stuff.

Theoretical physicists can be a real hoot to read/listen to. Perhaps you can offer names of such that support your statements.

I'd be interested in reading about your method(s) of channelling this being and what proof you've been shown that convinces YOU of its validity. Is your belief in the messages from this being a matter of faith? Have you been presented with empirical evidence?

Thanks in advance.

-- Rich (howe9@shentel.net), April 30, 2001.

Uh, Iona, I would appreciate if you'd let me ASK my questions prior to you answering them. OK? ROTFL!

-- Rich (howe9@shentel.net), April 30, 2001.

-- Rod Serling (serling@twilight.zone), April 30, 2001.

So what?

-- Lars (larsgy@yahoo.com), April 30, 2001.

Rich - check out the URL above that someone kindly provided - re notes on Contact. The notes part way down start to go into the quantum physics theories of consciousness - very fascinating stuff - I was just scanning over it now. The information in that essay is in some ways very compatible with what I have been "told" by Goddess Venus.

As far as channelling goes - I know from long experience with this that if you are disbelieving, there is nothing I can say that will alter your opinion about the reality of channelling. My experience is similiar to other channellers, in that the information I receive comees entirely via mental telephathy. There are no "voices" ever, and the information is very complex. Goddess Venus vocabulary is of course infinite, and she often uses words that I have to look up to see what she is really "talking about".

My experience is different than most other channellers in that it has gone far beyond the typical channelling experience. Goddess Venus can control my body in every aspect, and has demonstrated this to me firsthand upon occasion - it is never very pleasant to experience being a "puppet". She has done things such as direct me via mental telepathy to do step by step very flawless works of art, as if painting by numbers. I am myself a fairly amateur artist. While I cannot originate a great work of art on my own, I can recognize one when I see it. And of course, she has taken me on dimension shift experiences where I was aware that what I was seeing could not be real. These experiences were overall very unpleasant, and involved things such as minor violations of the laws of physics, such that I would know that what I was experiencing was "out of bounds" of the world I am familiar with.

-- Iona (Iona@Hologram.net), April 30, 2001.

Goddess Venus told me she stopped talking to you three years ago.

-- Buddy (buddydc@go.com), April 30, 2001.

As far as channelling goes - I know from long experience with this that if you are disbelieving, there is nothing I can say that will alter your opinion about the reality of channelling.

Iona, there's little you can say to alter my opinion whether I believe or disbelieve in channelling. I'm a firm believer in firsthand experiences. Even then, analysis of experiences can be difficult when one travels beyond the point where the road map we are provided in this life ends. I find adopting the skeptics hat most beneficial before, during and after such events.

I do approach, with an open mind, people who are sincere. You come off as very sincere in what you write, Iona. As I've had a fair number of experiences out of body, I am particularly fascinated by the accounts of others in this regard. So please do not for a moment think I am egging you on in order to be made a laughingstock.

To those who deem Iona, and these subjects in general, Twilight Zone material, I don't blame you one bit. As I stated above: Where does reality end and fantasy begin? The answer for each of us is to be found only when we ask the question in earnestness and are prepared to undertake the quest to find the answer.

-- Rich (howe9@shentel.net), April 30, 2001.

Iona,

Because of this thread I now intend to take a look at the movie "Contact." My wife informed me this morning that after my dream experience of one year ago, we were able to locate a copy of "Contact" and bought it, but never looked at it. We have moved twice in one year and many of our things are still buried in boxes. When I finally dig out the video "Contact" I'll look at it.

This dream however, has me puzzled. I have never experienced "directions" being given in a dream, especially of something I have absolutely no knowledge of (namely, the film "Contact"). Any thoughts on this? How does this happen? "Who" is giving information in the dreams? My higher self? My spirit guide? God?

Makes me also wonder what other "information" in dreams I have been given but have ignored and forgotten? Very interesting. I think I better begin to pay attention.

-- AZ (Just@home.here.com), April 30, 2001.

Rich, thanks for your thoughtful comments. I really agree with live and let live. Change is not really the issue, as you say. But I have been put in the position of having to defend myself so many times, it is as if others want to change me -ie perform and excorcism or see me "on medication". So perhaps what i am truly after is only "live and let live". I have never had an out of body experience, but I have heard it can be very very profound. I think I am having an "in body experience" now - Goddess Venus has somewhat crowded herself into my body, so there are two of us operating in one body now, almost. It is called an "oversoul" I think, although I don't really know what that means precisely. It has something to do with an archetype, which we all have. To me it feels like my brain has a second computer hooked up to it now, which is feeding in stuff that overrides what came before.

-- Iona (Iona@Holograms.net), April 30, 2001.

Maybe it's a Y2K glitch.

-- Buddy (buddydc@go.com), April 30, 2001.

You may be on to something here, Buddy. Does the Paula Gordon have any data about potential embedded Goddess problems?

-- CD (costavike@hotmail.com), April 30, 2001.

I once bedded a Modess Goddess.

-- Lars (larsguy@yahoo.com), April 30, 2001.

AZ, in the case of dreams I think there is a lot of information there. In my case the past several weeks, I've been bombarded with dreams from the moment I fall asleep until the time I rise. I've not attempted to evaluate content, as there's far too much going on a nightly basis. But I came to the realization in analyzing the general state of my sleep that I have been uncomfortable with the many potential changes in my life I've been considering these past few months. So I’ve circled the wagons, so to speak. Simplified what I now focus on and put off those changes for the time being. The quality of sleep has improved dramatically ever since.

The dream state is similar to what one may find through regular practice of meditation. One can tap into the subconscious and superconscious realms via both methods. I'm a fledgling when it comes to assessing dreams. Just as with experiences in meditation, I think a person can really get things wrong when undertaking dream analysis and I have therefore tread slowly. I'm pretty conservative when it comes to looking for messages in dreams, and in differentiating between what might be intuition and what flight of fancy. I've found when a lesson is important, it will present itself time and again until I learn it completely.

As to who it is communicating information via dreams and other experiences: that's something worth pursuing, no?

-- Rich (howe9@shentel.net), April 30, 2001.

AZ

I have always paid quite a bit of attention to apparently random synchronicities. Now I overdo it with seeing synchronicities in everything.

I now believe from experiences that the nature of the Divine is quite polytheistic, and this includes multidimensional polytheistic. My best guess is that we get various kinds of messages from various dimensions. Some messages may come from a spirit guide perhaps from this dimension. Other messages might come from higher dimensional Divine Beings. Our higher self I believe is at the dimension where we came here from, and from which our memory is blocked for learning purposes for this incarnation. I don't think we get synchronous outside messages from our higher self, per se, although, our "true self" unconsciously if not consciously influences what we do and choices we make. This is just my best guess so far. In my case, I am pretty sure that the movie Contact came to me directly from Goddess Venus. My higher self probably would have guided me away from the movie, as I said, because I have never been very attracted to science fiction.

I listen to the kind of prophetic or visonary dreams some people get - the spirit world and the higher Divine appear to powerfully influence dreams for some people. I am quite in awe of some of the prophetic dreams I have heard about.

There is a sort of philisophical/spiritual writer I really like - Joseph Mason - he gets almost all his spiritual insights, which are vast, from dreams. It seems like in his case, that he has chosen to communicate with the higher dimensions and spirit world almost exclusively via dreams.

It seems to me, depending on the type of information, dreams could come from either the higher self or the spirit world/Divine. Prophetic dreams, however, would seem to have to come from the Divine.

-- Iona (Iona@Hologram.net), April 30, 2001.

Iona-- Are you familiar with a book called, The Holographic Universe? It discusses the latest in scientific theory, primarily physics, and validates the Eastern spiritual concepts of life as an illusion-- which is akin to what you've been discussing today.

Also- elsewhere you have mentioned that you were directed to Tom Clancy. I thought that was interesting, because I happen to know (don't ask me how) that Clancy is recommended, along with other fiction of that ilk, when one first enters the "world" of black ops. Clancy does a tremendous amount of research and just about has it right- or so I've been told.

BTW- Since I've studied paranormal experience for many, many years, I believe that I have a fair idea of what may be happening to you. I read your posts with interest- as I have read many, many others over the years-- in my personal quest in search of the answer to: "What is it that exists beyond the five senses?"

Many people, for some unknown reason, have a finely honed ability of mental telepathy. That faculty explains most of the remarkable information that channelers, mediums, psychics and fortune tellers are able to convey. They are relying on this rather common attribute. It is still of interest to me, however, because I feel that any evidence of the supernatural leads me closer to the answer to my question.

In your case, I am concerned by two things. One is the issue of control by another entity. I've seen that before and feel that it's quite dangerous. I've always joked that an entity would have to pay me rent before s/he could occupy my body. Another concern is that you've stated among your various posts that you've been miserable for the past two years. My sense is that life is to be lived with a sense of movement, growth and merriment, if possible, so naturally, I would not respond or allow something to intervene in my life that would lead to misery.

I don't mean to criticize you at this point, although you know I've defended your right to speak without condemnation and I've also made fun of you on occasion. You seem sincere. And, I, for one, read with interest.

-- Miss Ann Thrope (more@books.com), April 30, 2001.

Rich, Iona

Thank you for your thoughtful and kind response. When I consider the framework of when I had my particular dream concerning "Contact," I recall that I was heavy into reading books written by Mary Summer Rain. Mary calls her work "spiritual philosophy." She has a great deal to say about dimensions beyond what we call the 5 senses. And she firmly feels each of us has access to these dimensions, but we either are too lazy to take the time, or we are in denial of inner promptings that we receive that would lead us there.

She says that "Halographic Universe" almost has it right. Only a few places in the book does the author not quite get it right. But, as I recall, she doesn't go into detail where the deviations occur. Also, she doesn't give book reviews.

So when I consider the reading and research I was doing a year ago, it doesn't surprise me now, looking back, that my dream life was very active. What I am fascinated with (now), and excited too, is that Iona's post appears today, and the connection with a suggestion received in a dream a year ago that I see "Contact."

Just yesterday I was reflecting on my seeming inability lately to be "inspired" by anything, and then this morning your post appears. What a journey! I love it.

AZ

-- AZ (Just@home.here.com), April 30, 2001.

I'd like to echo MAT's sentiments. Since I began my spiritual journey I've been aware of an internal STOP sign when it comes to allowing another entity to enter me and make itself comfortable. It's one thing to meet the buddha on the road. Quite another to look in the mirror, introspectively speaking, and realize a roomate has moved into residence. When visiting hours are over, entity had better leave.

Also, MAT's mention of misery is right on. The spiritual life is an arduous one which at times can be gut-wrenching. But that pain springs from attachment to concepts and material objects, an unwillingness to flow with change, and refusal to learn key lessons, to shed the skin of old habits and ways of thinking, IME. When I'm doing it right, joy, joy and more joy is the result.

Sorry if this comes off preachy, Iona. Not meant as such.

-- Rich (howe9@shentel.net), April 30, 2001.

Hi MAT!

First - I agree with you about Tom Clancy. He may have been involved in black ops himself for a time. I also think that he may have been himself an Illuminati - there were many Illuminati in show biz too - they have always controlled the cultural/media agenda.

As far a Goddess Venus goes - I understand what you are saying. My response has several parts - one is, I do believe we are in the Endtimes, which really refers to a HUGE transition into the Age of Aquarius and the fifth dimension, and also the End for the Age of Pisces. Hence, we will find our understanding of the nature of the world changing - which is certainly what has happened to me. Goddess Venus has actually explained the concept and reason for tribulation to me in some detail. This does not mean that tribulation is/will be the version that christians believe or will be occurring at the same time in the same manner for all people, but tribulation will likely be dramatic and difficult for all as best I can tell. All of this "tribulation" for me really started almost precisely in conjunction with the timing of various events in the book of Revelations, especially in conjunction with the unprecedented astrological events of 1999 which i have discussed quite a bit, and which some christian authors even demonstrate as being linked to the book of Revelations also.

And quite honestly, when GV came into my life uninvited and started performing miracles (not always pleasant ones, but miracles none-the-less), I really didn't know how to say "go away" if it would have even worked. One cannot tell a 600 pound gorilla to "go away". Plus, gorillas are rather rare - I was totally fascinated. Until GV arrived, I had always been agnostic about gorillas - I didn't even know if they really existed.

-- Iona (Iona@Endtimes.com), April 30, 2001.

"Many people, for some unknown reason, have a finely honed ability of mental telepathy. That faculty explains most of the remarkable information that channelers, mediums, psychics and fortune tellers are able to convey. They are relying on this rather common attribute. "

Mental telepathy may or may not exist, but the fact is that channellers, mediums, psychics, and fortune tellers are frauds and/or performing magic tricks.

As for all this talk about other dimensions and higher beings. You might have something there if it wasn't for the part about "Goddess Venus."

-- Buddy (buddydc@go.com), April 30, 2001.

Question - have you seen the movie "Contact" and do you think this is possible?

To answer your first question: Yes, I have seen the movie "Contact".

As for "possible", that requires a bit longer answer.

First, I see no evidence at all that "Contact" provides a true description of the universe as it currently exists, or that there are (or were) fifth dimensional beings called Illuminati who act as you describe. Pending such evidence, I would make a provisional judgement that this is not possible.

But that isn't what you asked. You didn't ask about "provisional" possibility, or evidence, or truth.

In the realm of pure "possibility", you may abandon the idea that concrete reality - as we experience it through our senses or their extensions, such as telescopes, microscopes, and so on - is necessary. As soon as you do so, then you may quickly accept that anything you can imagine is "possible". Even much more then you can imagine.

At the same time, once you abandon all reliance on the senses to restrict or limit possibility, all explanations of all phenomena become equally valid. This state, where all explanantions are equally valid, leads immediately to a state of maximum mental entropy. In this state, there is no reason to think your fanatasy about Carl Sagan and fifth dimensional beings is any more valid than believing that frinks spuke the doosers into nastrimicality by scrumming. Or should I say no more valid than kjehji nfnfh riupw sswe adx?

So, I have to conclude that your ideas are either "impossible" when compared to the concrete reality that is bounded by my senses, or (if you toss aside concrete reality) your ideas are "possible", but uninteresting, because they are no more possible than their opposite, or than anything else - until you show evidence to the contrary.

-- Little Nipper (canis@minor.net), April 30, 2001.

Iona,

Looked for the video of "Contact" buried in unpacked moving boxes, and found it. Tonight I will see "Contact" for the first time.

AZ

-- AZ (Just@home.here.com), April 30, 2001.

Pretty absolute statement there, Buddy. I'd like to read about your experiences with such practitioners. My guess, in order to have closed the book on such phenomena, you have extensive firsthand knowledge.

-- Rich (howe9@shentel.net), April 30, 2001.

Buddy,

A number of people have echoed your sentiment - that "Goddess Venus" sounds like a ridiculous prank name for a true Divine. However, if you check into the history of the occult - (which I have only done as part of information gathering) - the planet Venus really has great significance to earth, and the periodic orbit of venus around the sun relative to earth is one of the basis for virtually all calendars. The planet Venus really performs a major time keeping role relative to earth. Additionally, the orbit of planet Venus relative to earth forms the five pointed star found depicted throughout the occult. When a five-pointed star is enclosed in a circle, it becomes the occult/demonic pentagram. The five-pointed stars on flags around the world all symbolize Venus (as in its orbit), and are often in conjunction with represenatations of the sun or moon on the various flags. The Illuminati/secret societies seemed to have understood the relevance of Venus to our existence, even if the rest of us don't. Additionally, as I said, there is a very specific and interesting reference to the planet Venus in the movie "Contact". There was no such equivalent reference to Mars, Jupiter etcetc. I could cite numerous references about this all.

Just a little historical side-note. Venus has always been known as both the morning and evening star, but especially is synonmous with the morning star. In ancient times, the planet Venus was also known as Lucifer (aka Satan). In the book of Revelations, chapter 22, it actually says that Jesus "is the morning star". Many christians try to explain this away as a translation error, but it really cannot be explained away. It is very very deliberate, and accurate in a symbolic sense. There is no actual Jesus, but there is a morning star, ie planet Venus or Goddess Venus/God Satan, that really is equivalent in the metaphorical sense.

-- Iona (Iona@Planets.net), April 30, 2001.

LN: ...once you abandon all reliance on the senses...

Not to speak for Iona, but she did emphasize her reliance on her senses in these matters. It is in the analysis and one's ability to deal with and decipher information acquired through aparati not readily acknowledged as existent where the gap lies.

This gap, in some instances a grand canyon, makes communication between those who explore consciousness unshackled by present-day scientific method as sole arbitor, and those who cling tightly to what is strictly provable in a laboratory, nigh impossible. The playing fields are incompatible. The goals, I believe, also do not match.

I avoid engaging those who speak in absolutes on both sides of the metaphysical fence in most situations. Explorers in any realm must avoid concretizing their opinions at all costs, IMO. Know your history. We are wrong far more often than we are correct.

-- Rich (howe9@shentel.net), April 30, 2001.

Iona, I am truly sorry to say that a large part of what you are describing as happening to you fits the clinical descriptions of schizophrenia to a tee - right down to the unpleasantness of much of the experience of "channeling" another voice and will inside you that appears much more powerful than your "normal" self". Schizophrenics become deeply unhappy about their situation as they get deeper into the disease, but feel powerless to combat the will of the voice(s) that command them.

Practically the only thing that doesn't fit the standard behavior is your willingness to talk very freely about your thoughts and experiences. Such candor is really unusual. But maybe the anonymity of the Internet makes this possible for you to "come out" while not jeopardizing your "mission". Or else, you have only just recently experienced this change in your personality and you aren't completely paranoid yet.

Now I don't have any license to practise medicine, but here's a flea to put in your ear: schizophrenic behavior most often emerges during young adulthood (roughly age 16 to 23).

If you are a young woman of college age (you sound very definitely educated enough to be in college) then you should seek help. Especially if Goddess Venus starts to get more and more demanding and dictatorial in the next six or eight months - telling you the fate of the universe depends on your following her orders - telling you to mistrust almost everyone- that the Illuminati are spying on you and your life is in danger - stuff like that.

OTOH, if you are more like 50 years old and have "always" dabbled with psychic stuff, astrology, pyramid power and all that foolery, then disregard my worries. You are probably fine. Just a little off-kilter, maybe.

-- Miserable SOB (misery@misery.com), April 30, 2001.

Little Nipper-

That was a GREAT argument which you wrote! I really enjoyed it.

-- CD (costavike@hotmail.com), April 30, 2001.

Rich-- egg-zactly, and expressed beautifully.

Lil' Nipper-- Ahhhhhh-- Descartes.

AZ--- Obviously, you're being led to discover something from that movie. Should be fascinating. Be sure to have the appropriate refreshments on hand in order to celebrate the event in grand style.

Iona-- Any comments on the dates you've mentioned as we approach? May lst-- through the ninth, wasn't it?

Also, what are your thoughts on the planet Venus in astrology? The reason I ask is that I have five planets in Libra, which is ruled by Venus. And, a T-square with its center point as a conjunction of Venus, Mercury and Neptune, composing three of the five in Libra.

-- Miss Ann Thrope (morerandom@thoughts.com), April 30, 2001.

OTOH, if you are more like 50 years old and have "always" dabbled with psychic stuff, astrology, pyramid power and all that foolery...

M-SOB's statement illustrates my points regarding "the gap" and absolutes quite beautifully. I would love to know where your basis for calling such things "foolery" is derived.

Understand, I'm not espousing anyone believe in such things. Not for a NY second. It is the confidence behind the above statement which puzzles me to no end. All such experiences of others are dropped into a bucket labeled "foolery" and discarded as so much worthless trash. Certainly your prerogative to do so.

-- Rich (howe9@shentel.net), April 30, 2001.

SOB

Ah, yes, another schizophrenia diagnosis by another "expert". Obviously you know nothing about it, and you aren't listening. I have never heard a voice in my life. Hearing voices and receiving telepathic communicatons are very different processes. But I do not waste my time or energy trying to explain anymore of this to people like you, because you are far to closed mind to comprehend any of it. I am a nurse, and I know a whole lot about schizphrenia from the various jobs I have had which often have involved dealing with seriously mentally ill patients. I am sure I could teach you all about schizophrenia, because you clearly know very little about it.

-- Iona (Iona@Hologram.net), April 30, 2001.

Belief in things metaphysical/paranormal oftentimes come from experience. Once it happens to you, you know that there's "something more" to our existence, whether we can rationalize/justify/explain it or not. It just IS. We accept it and - for the brave who are curious - we delve into it, embrace it, allow it to offer guidance and assistance. We add it to our spiritual arsenal to aid in our journey as human beings.

There are those that decide "NO, it cannot be!" and with that thought they close off the realm of possibilities and shut the doors of experience happening to them. So be it. They choose to live without ever peeking behind the veil. But what right do they have to say that anyone's else's experience didn't/doesn't happen? What right do the disbelievers have to condemn, dismiss, attack or belittle someone else's experience? It demonstrates not superior intelligence but rather the limitations of a closed mind.

Iona speaks with intelligence and heart. She is openly and freely sharing her experience for consideration and discussion. I, for one, welcome her contributions.

-- 1 (2@3.com), April 30, 2001.

"And, a T-square with its center point as a conjunction of Venus, Mercury and Neptune, composing three of the five in Libra."

My, my, my...you're quite the psychic one, aren't you? You have a great ability to "read" other people but you may have a tendency to get mired in confusion on personal issues. Look to the house opposing this configuration - therein lies the answer of how to potentiate your gifts.

-- 1 (2@3.com), April 30, 2001.

MAT

Yes, my information about dates for things pertaining to arrests of NWO figures and international financial collapse are still flashing red from now to about May 9th. Very much so.

As far as astrology goes, I really know virtually nothing about it. I have researched certain astrological events, especially that occurred in 1999, and astrology/archeoastronomy as it interrelates to the calendar, but beyond that I am completely a novice.

-- Iona (Iona@Hologram.net), April 30, 2001.

Pretty absolute statement there, Buddy. I'd like to read about your experiences with such practitioners. My guess, in order to have closed the book on such phenomena, you have extensive firsthand knowledge.

-- Rich (howe9@shentel.net), April 30, 2001.

You've got to be kidding. Firsthand? Some. Plenty of documentary evidence too. You seem to accept Iona's meandering gobbledygook readily. She is speaking in pretty absolute terms about the existence of the Illuminati, etc. So, I guess we're even.

As for Iona being a nurse, I wish I knew which facility you work at, or at least in what city, so I can be sure not to go there.

What else do you folks believe in? The power of chrystals? pyramids? Do you have dental work that acts as a receiver for the "Goddess Venus"???

-- Buddy (buddydc@go.com), April 30, 2001.

Plenty of documentary evidence too

Such as.....?

-- Put (UpOr@ShutUp.com), April 30, 2001.

Don't forget it was the Venus Probe that went haywire and had to be destroyed by Steve Austin in the Six Million Dollar Man.

-- (oscar@gold.man), April 30, 2001.

" Hearing voices and receiving telepathic communicatons are very different processes. " Iona

Only someone who had experienced both would know for sure.

-- oh please (h@rd.ly), April 30, 2001.

Why must I be kidding, Buddy? Why do I ask you how you came to conclude such phenomena is fraudulent/trickery? Because I wish to know whether you are speaking from experience or merely parroting "the company line". I'm a skeptic, Buddy. I want to know if you have serious knowledge which I should consider, or are talk out your ass. Know what I mean?

Look, Buddy, any post here could lead to a series of email discussions. This has occured times too numerous to list. Because metaphysics is a subject I hold near and dear, I look to find nuggets wherever I can. I asked. You answered. I get the gist.

Do I accept Iona's "gobbledygook" as fact? Not at all. Nor am I interested in the Illuminati and such matters. But I do accept Iona as sincere, as I stated above. That, in my thirty-six years on earth, is a rare quality.

People who speak of such experiences are flypaper for ridicule. [No kidding, Rich!] I try to support folks who are willing to air their experiences. It's not an easy road. But one so very precious.

-- Rich (howe9@shentel.net), April 30, 2001.

Rich,

You consider this metaphysics?

I don't.

The following written by Iona isn't metaphysics. It's delusional.

I get my information from both researching the internet and channelled information from the "spirit world". (I don't really get channelled information from the spirit world per se - the Being that I receive information from says she is "Goddess Venus", a title only, and that she is a 144th dimensional Divine Creator Goddess not on the "spirit plane" at all.)

-- Buddy (buddydc@go.com), April 30, 2001.

For documentary evidence, here's a start:

http://skepdic.com/

http://www.skepticplanet.com/

http://www.csicop.org/

http://www.skepticnews.com/

http://www.skepticfriends.org/

http://www.skeptic.com/

http://www.quackwatch.com/index.html

-- Buddy (buddydc@go.com), April 30, 2001.

May very well be delusional, Buddy. One difference between you and I is that you are sure of the accuracy of your assessment and I am not.

Put a bow on it. That's a wrap.

Take care,

-- Rich (howe9@shentel.net), April 30, 2001.

Buddy, you have a closed mind as do all those that created the skeptic sites you listed. What about your PERSONAL experiences? Or are you just going to verbally regurgitate what they've told you to believe? If you haven't had any PERSONAL experiences of your own, who are you to say they do or do not exist?

-- 1 (2@3.com), April 30, 2001.

Belief in things metaphysical/paranormal oftentimes come from experience. Once it happens to you, you know that there's "something more" to our existence, whether we can rationalize/justify/explain it or not. It just IS. We accept it and - for the brave who are curious - we delve into it, embrace it, allow it to offer guidance and assistance. We add it to our spiritual arsenal to aid in our journey as human beings.

It's one thing to believe in the possibility of ghosts/spirits/beings and alternative universises, etc. It is quite another to speak with certainty of "the Being that I receive information from says she is "Goddess Venus", a title only, and that she is a 144th dimensional Divine Creator Goddess not on the "spirit plane" at all" or to state that "Anyway, my information is that Carl Sagan was an Illuminati indeed."

I do not refute the possibility of the existence of metaphysical reality. However, I do not take seriously anyone who writes about it as if they are writing a history book of facts on it.

-- Buddy (buddydc@go.com), April 30, 2001.

Hey, we need small-minded, close-minded folks like Buddy.....it makes the rest of us look good! ;-P

-- Zip (Zippety@DooDah.com), April 30, 2001.

Evidence of existence of Illuminati higher dimensional beings-

Of course, there is very good information about this on the internet, if one really wants to investigate for themselves and really make an informed decision.

If one looks at human history objectively (rather than with the disinformation we have been given), there really is no explanation for many aspects and leaps of knowledge in our past without concluding that there has been some kind of higher knowedge input and intervention all along. For example, if one reads about the intricate and accurate structure of the Mayan calendars (and pyramid systems), based on very sophisticated astronomical projections, one can not possibly believe that primitive man was able to make such calculations. There are many many such vast leaps of knowledge that similiarly occurred in Babylonian and Sumerian civilizations.

But the most dramatic and obvious is to really look at ancient Egyptian ciilization and it's structures, some of which actually probably go back 12,000 years. The precise mathematical construction and geographical alignments are so sophisticated, that modern scientists are still in awe and are still researching all the amazing gematria, or sacred geometry, symmetries that have been found in ancient Egypian structures. Additionally, any serious scientist would have to be incredulous that primitive man could even design such structures, let alone actually build them with primitive building techniques and knowledge. The fact that we have always believed that ancient Egyptian structures were actually built by primitive building techniques just shows how much we have been brainwashed about our true history. Careful examination of our entire human history will show repeated examples of information and technology leaps of vast proportion that simply couldn't have arisen spontaneously from primitive peoples and civilization, without some kind of outside advanced assistance. This is actually one of the reasons Goddess Venus has said that the Illuminati were here, by design - to advance civilization.

-- Iona (Iona@Hologram.net), April 30, 2001.

Closed mind? Hahaha, I'm well-known in real life for having a very open mind.

Buddy, you have a closed mind as do all those that created the skeptic sites you listed. What about your PERSONAL experiences? Or are you just going to verbally regurgitate what they've told you to believe? If you haven't had any PERSONAL experiences of your own, who are you to say they do or do not exist?

Ever occur to you that some of those PERSONAL experiences you speak of are illusions/mirages/hallucinations?

And nobody tells me what to believe. 12 years of Catholic school was enough to keep that from happening LOL!

To be fair, I can say that I have experienced several times in my life what can be considered premonitions and also deja vu situations. But the "Goddess Venus" speaking to me? Please.

-- Buddy (buddydc@go.com), April 30, 2001.

Iona, I am glad to hear you are well.

However, your saying that the information I gave you was evidence that I know "nothing" bothers me. Even if you are in the pink of mental health, not everyone is, as your work in the mental health field should have taught you. Knowing how to recognize mental illness and when to urge someone should seek help seems like it's kind of important, don't you think?

I was just repeating the best information I had. If you are a healer, as you say, and you have this information, and I am spreading misinformation, then don't just tell me I'm wrong and stupid - correct me!

So, let's leave your telepathic powers totally out of the discussion. Just tell me what part of what I said was wrong? What part was right? Even if you don't like me for some reason, think how much harm I (and everyone else who lurks here) could do by "misdiagnosing" others based on what I said, and how much better it would be if we all had a clue.

OK. You claim you have much more than just a clue. How the hell hard would it be to write 6 or 8 sentences that clue us in?

-- Miserable SOB (misery@misery.com), April 30, 2001.

Iona, your so-called evidence just posted is only your own subjective analysis. There is pleny of academic research about these ancient civilizations which does not support your view that there must have been some "higher intervention."

One can prove almost anything using information on the internet. That's because there is a lot of information on the internet that is simply false.

-- Buddy (buddydc@go.com), April 30, 2001.

"I do not refute the possibility of the existence of metaphysical reality"

Then let Iona speak her Truth! Just because YOU never received channelled info (nor have I) doesn't mean that it doesn't occur. And since you *haven't* been privy to channelled info or, apparently, any other type of metaphysical experience, who are you to determine how another's experience should or shouldn't be played out or how the information should be conveyed? For someone so in the dark, so lacking in personal experience regarding the subject, you really have no grounds for criticism or dismissal.

Obviously you are a dyed in the wool skeptic and I have no intention of debating this ad nauseum because it will only result in a circular discussion. But someday....someday you just might have an unexpected "awakening" and it'll be a whole new ballgame for you.....you should be so lucky!

-- 1 (2@3.com), April 30, 2001.

How the hell hard would it be to write 6 or 8 sentences that clue us in?

Why would she do that when her first attempt at a discussion has been met by attack?

-- Duh (FigureItOut@Yourself.com), April 30, 2001.

Iona - I've been struggling with a physical problem for some time. I don't know if this is within your realm, but.....could you ask - on my behalf - what's the lesson I'm not "getting" that prevents my healing? Of course, any other insight you could provide would be most helpful too. If this isn't possible, I DO understand! (And the email is real if you want to take this private.)

-- Girabaldi (Girabaldi@yahoo.com), April 30, 2001.

"123",

I always have a hard time understanding why some people have to become vituperative about this. It is usually baffling when some people feel the need to energetically attack information, ideas, or experiences that they don't agree with. It must be very threatening in some way. Otherwise, where is all the energy coming from?

-- Iona (Iona@Hologram.net), April 30, 2001.

Duh, beg pardon, but would you please quote the part of what I wrote that you construe as an "attack"?

As for why Iona should bother to write those 6 or 8 sentences, it is very simple. Spreading knowledge is a good thing. Correcting misinformation is a good thing. Surely a nurse should have some interest in this activity.

Or is Iona only capable of writing about Illuminati?

-- Miserable SOB (misery@misery.com), April 30, 2001.

Girabaldi - Goddess Venus never acts to answer questions, even mine. She runs the show entirely. In other words, I can not ask her questions like a psychic medium might ask to the spirit world. I can only offer my personal experience, in that I think the issue of physical illness and disability is very complex, and doesn't necessarily mean failure to comprehend a message, although it can be that. But in my personal experience a physical malady or handicap can also function like a road to keep one from going in a direction not intended, if that makes any sense. For example, I believe that certain physical illnesses can actually keep us from going down a certain path because there are no lessons we need down that path, not because we are not "getting it". Not really different from what you are saying, just a little different twist to it.

Miserable SOB

Suggesting that someone you disagree with is not of sound mind is really the very sneakiest, nastiest kind of attack. Cloaking an attack in words of "expertise and concern" is really very dirty fighting. What you are is a dirty fighter, just as your handle suggests. Why you even see a need to fight in this situation is the question you should ask yourself.

-- Iona (Iona@Hologram.net), April 30, 2001.

"144th dimensional Divine Creator Goddess" Where do I read up about this stuff? How many dimensions are there? Is there a creator for each dimension?

Did Carl Sagan know that he was an Illuminati? If I were one how would I know?

-- Maria (anon@ymous.com), April 30, 2001.

"It must be very threatening in some way."

Obiously, this seems to be the case. Yet I can't help but wonder *why* it's so threatening? Is it that they're so caught up in themselves (narcissism) that the world must be *their* way or no way? It truly boggles my mind. Then again, it's a prime example of the duality that exists in the universe. LOL!

-- 1 (2@3.com), April 30, 2001.

If I were one how would I know?

If you were one, you wouldn't have to ask.

-- Grand (Master@Universe.com), April 30, 2001.

Iona: "Suggesting that someone you disagree with is not of sound mind is really the very sneakiest, nastiest kind of attack. Cloaking an attack in words of "expertise and concern" is really very dirty fighting. What you are is a dirty fighter, just as your handle suggests."

Can't win for losing. Showing concern becomes evidence of being a shitheel.

"Why you even see a need to fight in this situation is the question you should ask yourself."

Iona, I don't know you from Adam's off ox. So far from wanting to "fight" you, I was really concerned about your mental health. It isn't just everyone who channels a 144th grade whatchacallit.

I don't have any stake in whether you post here or if anyone believes you. I figure them as wants to believe you, will. No skin off my nose if they do. Have fun. Or scare yourself out of your wits. Or puff yourself up and strut the barnyard. Whatever turns you on. If you are happy with your life, then that's great.

I won't disguise the fact that I think you are deluded as all get out. But it appears you are doing that of your own free will, rather than compelled to it out of illness. I promise I won't come into every thread you start just to tell you that. You can fribble away at your fanatsies like a house afire and I won't feel any need to "fight" you. I won't be there. No interest.

-- Miserable SOB (misery@misery.com), April 30, 2001.

I think we have a love connection

Rich and Iona

Awe isn't it sweet?

-- Chuck Woolery (love@connection.), April 30, 2001.

Miserable SOB

Turn about fair play. You seem to feel free to say anything that comes into your mind, without examining your own motivations for doing so. So here is just what comes into my mind about you.

I think that the concepts I am discussing arouse certain predictable anxieties in some people. This is why I specifically asked at the start for people not to bring up the topics of my mental health or of demon possession, as it is really just a reflection of other peoples' crap that I get tired of dealing with. Apparently what I am discussing predictably arouses in some people fears of going insane or of being demon possessed- because these are the two most violent kinds of reactions I have gotten over and over when I discuss these concepts. And both such kinds of reactions are just projection of one's own internal fears.

Apparently the views I am expressing are arousing in you a fear for your own sanity if you are confronted with such a change in understanding of the nature of reality. Such responses as yours always contain large or total elements of projection. These are potentially very disturbing concepts, there is no doubt about it.

However, you are a complete asshole if you think it is appropriate to go around projecting your own crap onto other people without question of your own motives so as to maintain your own psychological comfort at others' expense.

You are the kind of person that would cause another to go insane by your projections, just so you wouldn't have to confront your own shaky sense of sanity.

You can't effect me in that manner, because I really have excellent ego boundaries. But I do feel sorry for those around you who may not be as experienced at dealing with assholes who project their shit onto others as I am.

-- Iona (Iona@Holographic.net), April 30, 2001.

Let's see. I've been linked romantically with Decker, I was to marry Eve in a trailer trash ceremony, and now Iona.

Am I a slut, or what?

-- Rich (howe9@shentel.net), April 30, 2001.

Personally, I think it's a perfect match.

-- (Chuck@Woolery.), April 30, 2001.

My dearest Iona. After I decided you really weren't schizophrenic, and therefore did not need my help, I offered to simply go away and leave you alone. Now it seems like you are just itching to pick a fight with me. You've already called me close minded, a nasty fighter, full of shit, an asshole with a shaky sense of sanity, full of fear, and ignorant.

The way you've got it all set up, I can stay here and disagree with you, in which case I am projecting my shit all over you.

Or I can leave you alone, thereby slinking away and proving how your dispensation of the truth has churned up so much fear in me that I can't deal it.

Or, lastly, I could overcome my fear of the truth long enough to examine my motives. It'll be obvious that I succeeded in this noble effort when I admit that everything you say is divinely informed by a 144th degree goddess being and that I really am a shit who should not touch the hem of your skirt. That will redeem me somewhat.

That pretty well sums up the choices you're giving me. I'm having a hard time making up my mind. You're the higher being in this ruckus. Help me out here.

-- Miserable SOB (misery@misery.com), April 30, 2001.

Say Chuck, you gonna spring for the first date? I want the use of a Corvette convertible. I could use a new suit too. Ya think you could arrange for us to meet in Montreal? I'm out of acetaminophen w/codeine & it's available OTC up there. It's the only medication I know that keeps the voices in check.

Thanks in advance.

-- Rich (howe9@shentel.net), April 30, 2001.

MSOB

I have not "demanded" that anyone must accept my views as real. However, nonacceptance does not mean that you can project your own unpleasant reactions to what I am discussing back onto me. You need to own your own reactions as your own. You can disagree with me without needing to shit on me. They are not the same thing at all- disagreeing with someone, versus shitting on them. Excuse my very graphic language, but it is really the best metaphor to describe the process I see going on. When you project your personal crap on others, that is shitting on them, precisely, and it is never nice. If what I say makes you feel like you could go insane if it should prove to be true, then you need to deal with that yourself.

I am not posting this stuff to amuse myself or to seek out continual abuse from others. I have many unpleasant reactions myself to this that I have to deal with. 123 said it well. No one is going to change anything by ranting and raving cause they don't like it. This is not a contest of wills, although it may seem like it can be resolved by those kind of old power games. But I don't think it can be resolved that way, nor will it be.

-- Iona (Iona@Holographic.net), April 30, 2001.

I gotta go. Many thoughtful, interesting responses here to this topic. Thanks. Rich, you charmer you, GV says I got a soul mate floating around here somewhere that she has headed in my direction now - we all do have one somewhere or other.

Take care and don't let the weasels get ya. Wild weasels in a cage can bite.

-- Iona (Iona@Holographic.net), April 30, 2001.

Rich, a corvette just smacks of a mid-life crisis. You know, they really need to start pulling guys aside in sex-ed. and teaching you these things.

-- (Chuck@Woolery.), April 30, 2001.

Iona, although you just said you were leaving this thread, I'd like to point out one very small thing for your future rerference:

MSOB, I have not "demanded" that anyone must accept my views as real.

It is considered common courtesy (netiqutte) that when you use quotation marks it should mean that you are quoting someone other than yourself. AFAIK, nobody anywhere in this thread ever said that you "demanded" such acceptance. You might believe they implied it. But implication doesn't warrant quote marks. In this case, leaving off the quote marks wouldn't have changed anything about the point you were making, and would have avoided the opportunity for any misunderstanding to arise.

Also, I read your reply to me pretty darn carefully for some sort of guidance in regard to what I said. I couldn't find any. I guess I'll just have to go it alone. As usual.

-- Miserable SOB (misery@misery.com), April 30, 2001.

Iona, you don't have to look for self appointed societal managers; they will always find you, huh?

He's a well respected man about town, doing the best things so conservatively......

-- withheld (toprotectthe@innoc.ent), April 30, 2001.

1@23-- Well, I've sorta stayed out of the debate that has errupted regarding those who are skeptics and those who are not. I do agree with your remarks in response, though. And, I thank you for your comments about the T-square in my chart. I'm not certain of the opposing house, because I have no concrete information about time of birth, which, as you know, would determine the positions of the planets in the houses. And, yes, I have "suffered" through the experiences of being highly sensitive, telepathic, clairvoyent, and audiovoyent-- since childhood, actually. That's why I pursue the question of extra-sensory perception: I'm trying to make sense of it all by defining it in some way. And, as you alluded to Buddy (was that his name?), it is understandable that one is dismissive of the subject if he hasn't had the experience himself-- the "awakening," as you put it.

That's why I struggle to be open-minded about *any* report of the supernatural, whether it be the 600 pound gorilla, as Iona describes, or the common reporting of thinking about someone and that person suddenly calls. I know enough to know that the subject is vastly beyond me. I also recognize the limitation of vocabulary regarding the myriad of experiences that people have: there are no commonly agreed upon *words* that describe the evidence of the supernatural. For instance, in the cases where visions of "beautiful beings of light" are reported, that experience can be and has been described as a visitation by the Virgin Mary; a projection of the higher self; an alien being; a time traveller; a dellusion; an Archangel named Michael; White Buffalo Woman; a desceased relative; and/or a 600 pound gorilla. My interest concerns the meaning of the experience itself, regardless of how it's described and limited by human vocabulary and cultural prejudices.

So, I generally find most people's experiences interesting as I read between and below the lines, so to speak, in order to detect the underlying principle or meaning and its link to "that which exists beyond the five senses." Simply, I would love to hear more: what has AZ discovered from the movie, Contact; what has been Rich's experience as agony has led to joy during the course of his spiritual journey; what does one perceive, exactly, when one "knows" Jesus; what do you think, 1@23, about the Grand Cross in 1999; and what does Iona's 600 pound gorilla say, specifically, about the next nine days?

All I know for sure is that we, collectively, are pretty much alike-- simply trying to determine the meaning of our various, extra-sensory perceptions in a super-materialistic world. We see "through a glass, darkly"-- and merely.

-- Miss Ann Thrope (moreblah@blah.com), May 01, 2001.

However, you are a complete asshole if you think it is appropriate to go around projecting your own crap onto other people without question of your own motives so as to maintain your own psychological comfort at others' expense.

So judgmental for someone who just moved into the neighborhood.

You are the kind of person that would cause another to go insane by your projections, just so you wouldn't have to confront your own shaky sense of sanity.

Kettle calling the pot black? He honestly asked a few questions, perhaps alarmed by the similarity to an actual disease, just to be attacked and boxed into being labeled as a specific "kind of person", which she is asking all not to do to her.

You can't effect me in that manner, because I really have excellent ego boundaries.

If she needs to tell us that, then just how true is it? Why the need to "convince"? Usually those who are not effected, have no need to belabor the point. They would have been indifferent to any post they felt was strictly intentional harassment without merit.

But I do feel sorry for those around you who may not be as experienced at dealing with assholes who project their shit onto others as I am.

An awfully strong and aggressively degrading statement about someone who's words supposedly had no ability to effect her.
Her strong reaction to an almost innocent act of concern shows she does allow the words of others to "control" her enough to get her hackles up and respond with such a strongly negative personal attack.

Maybe she misses the extremists at sleazy, those who want to save her soul, exorcise her or drug her up to stop "the voices". She was probably thrown for a loop by such mild reactions and acceptance to her freedom to express her views without being attacked by "the thought police" . Guess it would make someone very defensive to have those at sleazy try to impose their strict set of rules and standards upon her. Someone should let her in on the "rules" here, the requirement that she hit the bar and join Unk for a cold one as she enters the forum. It may take her a while to realize questions are not attacks, we allow each other the freedom to disagree, and that people here can completely disagree with each other and still enjoy the rituals we go through in the process of argueing opposing views and beliefs, and actually still like each other. Differences of opinion do not have to lead to hatred.

Hell, I should know, I have been defended by people here who don't agree with a thing I say, yet still - stand up and defend my right and freedom to express it.

Iona, I can understand if you have a chip on your shoulder and are defensive, who wouldn't be after being penned in with a group of narrow minded people who do not ALLOW others to think differently. I think you will find a lot of interesting people with a lot of different and interesting thoughts to interact and have real conversations with, just give them a chance and don't jump to conclusions, try to be as open minded as you wish others to be about your thoughts and beliefs.
You started of by dictating rules to those who would read and respond to your post. Shades of sleazy board ways of doing things. We don't have rules here like they do there, anyone is free to reply to any post here, if someone wanted to do exactly what you asked them not to, they could, with no fear of "punishment" or "flames" added to a list kept of wrongdoings. Don't worry, if you want a fight you can get one, right now the sun is shining and people are mellowing out after a long, cold dreary winter of discontent and overdosing on anti repug and Bush posts (don't know who was guilty of that *grin*) (because those freekin republicans bought and cheated their way into the white house), (you just knew I had to throw that in somehow didn't ya?).

Interesting subjects you have brought up and from what little I have heard, you feel strongly about them, and got some really weird and extreme reactions to them in the past. Did they really hold an exorcism on you? And they thought YOU were the odd one? Geeze.

-- Cherri (jessam5@home.com), May 01, 2001.

. The precise mathematical construction and geographical alignments are so sophisticated, that modern scientists are still in awe and are still researching all the amazing gematria, or sacred geometry, symmetries that have been found in ancient Egypian structures.

I know from my own reading that, on this point at least, Iona knows what she's talking about.

-- The square root of five, plus one, (divided@by.two), May 01, 2001.

Miserable=Frank

-- Same (Won'tLetItGoStyle@Skeptics.com), May 01, 2001.

Funny you should mention Frank, Same. On my drive home from the office last night the Luna/Frank duo popped into my head in relation to this thread. Interesting.

-- Rich (howe9@shentel.net), May 01, 2001.

Miss Ann Thrope,

Your last post was very much appreciated. Dove tails with many of my own thoughts and feelings. It was this sort of perspective that had me outsed from the leadership of a certain religious group. "They" expected intolerance regarding "other religious groups," whereas I espoused tolerance.

I fully expected to view "Contact" last evening, but when I was finished telling my son his bedtime story, I too fell asleep. Perhaps this evening I will see it.

-- AZ (Just@home.here.com), May 01, 2001.

Another telling film is Waco: the rules of engagement, especially an interview in which a psychiatrist tells of being called to the seige to observe the people inside for analysis, but after a day or two, he became much more fasinated by the mentality of the people outside.

-- KoFE (your@town.USSA), May 01, 2001.

Cherri said "who wouldn't be after being penned in with a group of narrow minded people who do not ALLOW others to think differently."

Step back. Calm down. Take a deep breath.

No one can dictate what others think. Anyone can turn off their computer or go to another site.

-- (Stupid is @s stupid .does), May 01, 2001.

Chuck, I've never even stepped foot in a Corvette. Always wanted to though. If your company is going to foot the bill for a rental, now's the chance. Ya dig?

Iona, sent you an email and it bounced. Give me a shout if you would.

-- Rich (howe9@shentel.net), May 01, 2001.

Good post, Cherri. Some excellent observations in there.

-- CD (costavike@hotmail.com), May 01, 2001.

As for me, I never meant to attack. Just disagree.

-- Buddy (buddydc@go.com), May 01, 2001.

Hi Iona

I was just wondering where you went to, and here you are.

Abby

-- Abby (willothewisp2001@hotmail.com), May 06, 2001.