A simple question for the conspiracy-minded

greenspun.com : LUSENET : TimeBomb 2000 (Y2000) : One Thread

Most conspiracy theorists say that there is a small cabal of plotters who are positioning themselves to one day take us all over and "run the economy."

My question is: who in their right mind would want to literally run the U.S. economy? The cabal would have to make about 7,000,000 decisions a minute, every minute of the day. The USSR had 15,000,000 people in GOSPLAN running their miserable clunker of an economy.

Not even B. Gates or Clintonus can be that crazy!

-- Unreel (cometo@tention.net), January 03, 2000


What's actually interesting is that many KGB agents in America, conditioned by their experience with a central command economy, were convinced that something similar existed in America and searched for it as they could. Poor dopes. This from _The Sword and the Shield_, the recently published book detailing the Mitrokhin archives.

-- Ned Raggett (ned@kuci.org), January 03, 2000.

Whoever wants profit, baby!

-- Hokie (Hokie_@hotmail.com), January 03, 2000.

Your missing an obvious point.

There is no conspiracy.

The point is no large institution, IF they have a catastrophic system failure, is going to go public with the information. They are going to try to hide it, lie about it, or put a positive spin on it. They have no incentive to you the truth. It could only hurt stock price and / or create liability for them.

Just thought I'd point out the obvious.

-- brent (me@over.here.com), January 03, 2000.

This reminds me of a joke -- What is the difference between a communist government and the mafia?

The mafia wants 10% of a vibrant economy, and the communists want 100% of a stagnant economy.

-- David Holladay (davidh@brailleplanet.org), January 03, 2000.

Amen, Brent. The polly meme is that if you believe that TPTB are sweeping anything under the rug, then you must be a part of the NWO crowd.


The reasons for the spin game are, and always have been, a lot pettier than that. The world is full of people who will sell out their neighbor, just to avoid a good dressing down from the boss.

Not everyone, mind you. But enough to make a little caution a smart thing. Fact is, whether the lie is due to "The Grand Conspiracy" or due to some little weasel, not wanting to own up to his/her mistakes, the net effect for you, the low person on the food chain, is often the same.

-- Bokonon (bok0non@my-Deja.com), January 03, 2000.

Ever hear the story about the little boy crying wolf? Rumors! Get enough rumors running around and no one listens any more. When the real wolf finally comes plodding along there is no one to listen anymore.

-- the wolves are prowling (littlered@ridding.hood), January 03, 2000.

Conspiracy theories are just that, theories about what people think is going on. So let us not waste our time with those. Lets look and see what is really going on. And lets determine what is really going on by examining irrefutable sources such as the Congressional Records, the laws of the countries and what America's luminaries in the past have said about what is going on rather than by speculating and giving opinions.

Without going into everything that is going on, lets just look at the irrefutable facts about just one organization: The "Federal" Reserve.

For those of you who have not seen my posts and do not understand what the unregulated, unaudited, unaccountable private institution (which has nothing more to do with the Federal Government than Federal Express) known as the "Federal" Reserve is all about, and at the risk of repeating my self, onnnee moorrre time, (as you will see this issue is at the core of EVERY other issue and is without a doubt THE most critical issue, period), just look at the following irrefutable facts about what the Federal Reserve is.

Not believing these facts would be difficult to do unless you are willing to refute decades of Congressional Records, many court cases and testimony from prominent people and be able to demonstrate the Framers of the Constitution, Jefferson, Jackson, McFadden and many luminaries from Americas past were all fighting some phantom and that text of the actual laws which were passed by congress concerning the Federal Reserve are all bogus.

The Federal Reserve and other such central banks are the real power brokers of any country as they control the issuance of currency. The governments where they operate are completely at their mercy. If you don't believe me then believe the following:

President James Garfield observed that "Whoever controls the volume of money in any country is absolute master of all industry and commerce." And we shouldn't forget old Anselm Rothschild, founder of the clan: "Give me the power to issue a nation's money; then I do not care who makes the laws."

It would seem settled, and indeed is obvious, that the creator of money in any community is a power to be reckoned with.

Now the Federal Reserve and Bank Of England are owned by Rothschilds and other German Banker Families and a few from the UK and are fully unaccountable to the governments of the countries they operate in and have never been audited.

Federal Reserve and the European Banker Families that own it have:

a) the power to get congress to pass an unconstitutional law that gives them the sole power to print the "US" dollar (really the Federal Reserve dollar which the US uses as its currency). The Constitution strictly states that only Congress shall have the power to coin money.

So hideous is the Federal Reserve Act that it fully realized the Constitutional Framers worst fears.

You may be surprised to learn that the Federal Reserve is the fourth central bank the United States has had, the previous three having crashed in inevitable raging inflation and widespread economic disaster. So clearly did our Founders understand and fear worthless paper money forced on the public by legal tender laws (precisely what we now have) that they filled the proceedings of the Constitutional Convention with statements of their horror of it. Americans today, deprived of hearing such truth, need to listen to their words:

* George Mason of Virginia: I have a mortal hatred of paper money.

* John Langdon of New Hampshire: I would rather reject the whole [Constitution] than grant the new government the right to issue fiat money."

* George Reed of Delaware: The right to issue fiat money would be as alarming as the mark of the beast in Revelation."

* Thomas Paine: The punishment of a member of Congress who should move for such a law ought to be death."

b) the power to get congress to pass a law to allow them to remain private and unregulated, unauditable accountable to no one and pay no tax even though they are a private organization.

c) the power in 1862 to force the Congress to pass a law that states that the US government should not accept its own currency on import duties it levies on its own citizens and that the US government must accept payment of its Bonds in paper currency but pay interest to the bond holders in gold. Effectively they have the power to make the US Government announce to the world we don't think our currency is good enough for these two items and only gold should be used. Guess where they had to buy the gold from to pay the interest on the original debt. Guess where the importers had to buy the gold from to pay the duties. Guess who got all the gold back when the government paid its interest on its bonds. The bankers who bought the bonds in the first place.

d) The power to cause the US debt to go from $1B in 1913 when the Fed was set up to $24B by the late 20's. How? Because the Federal Government must borrow money simply to keep the currency in circulation. Ever heard of anything so stupid. Yet that is what has been going on since 1913. Ever wonder why the debt keeps growing. It is mathematically not possible for it be paid back.

e) the power to bring a sitting president (Woodrow Wilson) to his knees and state after he signed the Federal Reserve Act to state:

"I am a most unhappy man. I have unwittingly ruined my country. A great industrial nation is controlled by its system of credit. Our system of credit is concentrated. The growth of the nation, therefore, and all our activities are in the hands of a few men. We have come to be one of the worst ruled, one of the most completely controlled and dominated Governments in the civilized world no longer a Government by free opinion, no longer a Government by conviction and the vote of the majority, but a Government by the opinion and duress of a small group of dominant men."

f) McFadden states in his address to the House of Representatives at the height of the Depression:

"Mr. Chairman, we have in this country one of the most corrupt institutions the world has ever known. I refer to the Federal Reserve Board and the Federal Reserve Banks.

"Thirteen months later, that promise was broken; and the Wilson administration, under the tutelage of those sinister Wall Street figures who stood behind Colonel House, established here in our free country the worm-eaten, monarchical institution of the "King's Bank," to control us from the top downward, and to shackle us from the cradle to the grave.

"One of the greatest battles for the preservation of this Republic was fought out here in [President] Jackson's day, when the Second Bank of the United Sates -- which was founded upon the same false principles as those which are exemplified in the Federal Reserve Act -- was hurled out of existence.

"Before the Senate Banking and Currency Committee, while the Federal Reserve Bill was under discussion, Mr. Crozier, of Cincinnati, said:

'In other words, the imperial power of elasticity of the public currency is wielded exclusively by these central corporations owned by the banks.'

"This is a life and death power over ALL local banks AND ALL BUSINESS. It can be used to create or destroy prosperity, to ward off or cause stringencies or panics.

"Every effort has been made by the Federal Reserve Board to conceal its power. But the truth is that the Federal Reserve Board has usurped the government of the United States.

"It controls everything here; and it controls our foreign relations. It makes or breaks governments at will."

The Bottom Line is the Federal Reserves controls the country. If the government wishes to do X, and the Fed doesn't agree, X will not be done. If the Fed wants to do Y, the government will comply else the Fed will induce a financial crisis that would get the government thrown out. End of story.

This is called power. This is the power to dictate the American Government. This is the power to have the full resources of the American Government at your disposal to do with as you please. Do not assume for a moment that this power will be forsaken for anybody any time soon.

This power has been enjoyed be these Banker Families since 1694.

In 1694 William III was involved in a war with France. He needed money and he needed it in large quantities. The British coffers were empty so he asked for vast loans of money from a super-rich Englishman named William Paterson and some of his wealthy friends. Paterson and his friends were perfectly agreeable to the loan providing they were allowed to do two things:

1. Set up a privately-owned bank to be called the Bank of England.

2. Receive authority from the king to issue their own bank notes or certificates as the official legal tender of England.

Everything else that you hear and see in the news is just a distraction to keep your attention away from the real worry: The Federal Reserve. You are slaves of the Federal Reserve through your taxes which go to pay them interest and through their control of inflation. They require you to pay taxes so they can collect interest. They require the IRS for this. The IRS requires Social Security for this as that is how they have jurisdiction over you. Guess what? Everybody knows Social Security is the only government agency that has been taking y2k seriously and has been working on it for 10 years. Ever wonder why? Its because they won't let their jurisdiction and control fail.

In 1862 the Bank of England/Rothschilds (do not be deceived by name, "Bank of England"; Bank of England was/is a *private* bank) issued and distributed to American banksters a document, The Hazard Circular, quoted in part below:

"Slavery is likely to be abolished by the war power, and chattel slavery abolished. This, I and my European friends are in favor of, for slavery is but the *owning of labor*, and carries with it the *care of labor*, while the European plan, led on by England, is that capital shall control labor by controlling wages. The great debt that capitalists will see to it is made out of the [Civil] war must be used to control the value of money. To accomplish this, the Government bonds must be used as a banking basis.

"We are now waiting for the Secretary of the Treasury of the United States to make this recommendation. It will not do to allow greenbacks, as they are called, to circulate as money any length of time, as we cannot control that, but we can control the bonds and through them the bank issues."

Like I said this is called power, the rest is irrelevant and just a distraction to keep your mind busy.

What ever you may think of Trump, he is the *only* candidate to come along and take on squarely what has been described as the most "corrupt institution in the world". The unaccountable, unaudited, unregulated, privately institution known as the "Federal" Reserve which is much a government agency as Federal Express.

You see his plan to pay of the debt (which by the way is a no-brainer for the rich as they know that Trump also intends to also do away with the 55% inheritance tax, which the media never mention, so the rich either pay 15% once now, or pay 55% once later - what would you do?) means that the Federal Reserve will be shut down once and for all (he just not saying this openly, however those in the know understand this is the inevitable outcome) and here's why.

Firstly the privately owned Federal Reserve banks have the sole monopoly to issue their bank note. The US decided to use their bank note as its currency - this is in clear violation of the Constitution which states that only Congress has that power.

Now the Fed can't issue any currency unless it is "backed" by some debt. It used to be gold, before the Fed, then it became 60% gold 40% debt after the Fed was created, then it became "any like asset", then it became only debt.

So the Fed buys up US government bonds (because it likes the guarantee that comes with them (i.e. you'll pay up through taxes)), although they could buy up any debt - say your mortgage, or how about an IOU to a German munitions supplier from Japan (i.e. an invoice from the German's to the Japanese). In actual fact just prior to WWII that is exactly what the Fed was buying up, but I digress (see Congressman McFadden's speech linked below).

Once they have the debt in their hand they can issue their bank note (dollar bills) against them. Actually 16 times the amount of the debt.

Lets say there are X trillion dollars in circulation and the Fed now "prints" up another 2 billion dollars backed by some US government bond they have bought. They fully expect the US Government to pay them interest on this bond.

Now pay attention here is the clincher that Trump is after. When they print up the 2 billion there are now X+2 billion in circulation. As the government pays off the bond they pay the 2 Billion PLUS Y amount of interest. So the among of dollars left in circulation is X-2-Y. Notice the circulation became tighter because there are less dollars left in circulation. Well you can't leave this situation because eventually all bonds will be paid back and that will pay back all of X, but what about the interest. There just is not enough in circulation to pay that back because it was never "printed" by the Fed and put into circulation.

The answer put the money back into circulation. Well by law the Fed can't do that unless they have some new debt. So the US government borrows 2 billion + Y dollars from the Fed by issuing a new bond and the Fed promptly "prints" up the money and restores the currency. But now the US government has to pay a new bond back of 2 B + Y along with Z interest.

I hope you are fast on the uptake here because you should have just realized that it is mathematically impossible with this to *ever* pay off the debt and you and all the generations to come after your therefore will continue to always pay increasing taxes.

So how do you do actually get rid of the debt - you pay off the $6 trillion as Trump suggests. You shut down the Federal Reserve, because you obviously do not want to borrow it back again, and you print $6 trillion of Conditional or US Treasury Notes. That is a currency issued by the Government.

Now you can see if you truly wish to have freedom in America you need to understand the racket the bankers have got happening in every country with a central bank they own (like the Bank of England as well) and then you will understand what Trump is *really* after.

For a history of how many times in the past America has had to do this to get rid of these illegal privately owned central banks and the untold damage they have done since the Declaration of Independence read the book "The Coming Battle" which was written in 1899. Link to full text below. I guarantee its the most riveting piece you'll ever have read and makes Tom Clancy's novels read like kindergarten stories. Its a factual record based on the Congressional Records and therefore can't be dismissed as "opinion" etc.


Source links for those who want to read about his themselves:

McFaddeen speech to House of Representatives

The Coming Battle

Book written in 1899 documenting from irrefutable congressional records and laws passed the first 3 attempts to set up central banks since the time of Jefferson and shows the power wielded by the European Banker Families. As I said, makes a Tom Clancy novel read like a kindergarten story.

President Jackson's veto message for the United States Bank

Has anyone else thought this explains all the terrorism/hacker warning?

OT?IF Y2k is such a threat why is gold/silver so cheap

-- Interested Spectator (is@the_ring.side), January 03, 2000.


Apparently you've never noticed the symbol of the organizational structure of the New World Order.

Here's a clue: You have literally held it in your own hands nearly every day, and you have allowed it to take control of your life.

Can you guess what the symbol is??

(No, I'm not talking about your dick :-)

Answer: It is the pyramid right on the back of the United States One Dollar Bill, with the "all seeing eye" at the top. This is the way they work, by observing all that happens, and keeping the appropriate individuals in the chain of command below them to fullfill their agenda.

-- Hawk (flyin@high.again), January 03, 2000.

If I am not mistaken that symbol (pyramid and eye) has something to do with the Free Masons, but have never found out for sure. Now if it is, makes you wonder why would that be on the US currency unless TPTB have something to do with them and nothing to do with America and its Consitituion.

-- Interested Spectator (is@the_rings.side), January 03, 2000.

I think the true conspiracy theorist would reply: They already have and they call themselves the Fed.

-- Crowe (helrazor@hotmail.com), January 03, 2000.

Interested Spectator: to put it as politely as possible, your post is nonsense from beginning to end. It is the same old crapola that the monetary cranks and nutballs have been spouting ad nauseum.

If there were any truth at all to what they believe, our monetary system would have crashed long ago. It would not have made it out of the nineteenth century. Nor that of any other industrialized country. Man alive, the very PC you are using is the result of countless millions of loans successfully made and repaid under the system you call criminal absurdity. So is most everything built up around you.

And since when is the blathering of a political hack in the Congressional Record an "irrefutable source?" Or the ruminations of other politicans who are certified economic ignorati? Funny, you sound like someone who has or should have a healthy distrust of what politicians say. Suddenly they are irrefutable? Even Wilson, half insane from his final strokes?

It goes without saying that you need a serious brushing-up on money creation mechanics. No room for that here. I suggest ANY Money and Banking or Principles of Economics text. Or are the authors and publishers all part of the cover-up?

-- Unreel (cometo@tention.net), January 03, 2000.

Hawk, come on man! Who gives a rat's ass what kind of impressive-looking cabalistic nonsense is printed on the currency? It means about as much as what picture appears on our postage stamps.

I'm surprised you didn't bring up the irrefutable fact that on the same one dollar note, the thirteen stars above the eagle take the shape of the "Jewish star."

-- Unreel (cometo@tention.net), January 03, 2000.

Oh yeah, thanks for reminding me! That's another one, and the Jewish star is also formed when you connect the letters M A S O N in the script surrounding the pyramid, and also "Novus Ordo Seclorum" stands for "New World Order."

Man those guys sure love their symbolism don't they? Take a look at their symbolism for one of their primary international cash registers, the New York Clearinghouse cartel of banks. What kind of shape are you looking down on when you look at the gray square?

-- Hawk (flyin@high.again), January 03, 2000.


Sorry but I can't help you if you're blind.

Politicians are mere pawns coerced into doing what their masters bid them do, that's why they can't be trusted.

But since you insist the Wilson had lost his marbles (but what about earlier when he signed the bill -- was this insane person president for so long -- hmm the public must be more stupid than him to vote him in), I suppose you think that Jefferson, McFadden, Jackson and the Framers are the same.

The Laws of the country are irrefutable from the point of view that they are there and being applied. Do you think that Congress did not pass a law in 1867 that said that interest on bonds and duties? Please explain to me after reading the first 2 chapters of the Coming Battle what possible benefit these laws had for the people of America. Also please explain to me what were all the President's and others I quoted stating their opposition to? Phantoms perhaps? Mass delusions? Please explain why Andrew Jackson fought to so hard to get rid of these banks? Please explain why the Framers specifically made special provisions in the Consitution against what we currently have? Please explain why the first 3 central banks were shut down after everybody could see the damage they did to the country and which McFadden shows happened again after the Federal Reserve was setup?

Have you even read the Comming Battle? It was written in 1899 *before the Federal Reserve* and documented the same things going on then and also documents the wars Jefferson and others had with the banks to get rid of the Central Banks set up before.

Easy to dismiss what you don't like based on your opinion. But frankly I don't care about your opinion. If you'd like to have an intelligent discussion with me then don't give me your opinions (as I have not done above), but provide me with facts that demonstrates what I have explained and quoted is false and that all those that I quote did not say what they did and that they were all misguided and that they were all fools since you say there is no truth to what I have posted.

Obviously you are one of the "nuveau" economists who never study history.

Those who fail to study history are doomed to repeat it.

Those who stick their head in the sand get kicked in the rear.

Put the two together and you get kicked repeatedly. Man your rear end must be really aching by now.

-- Interested Spectator (is@the_ring.side), January 03, 2000.

Thanks Interested Spaectator! I'd like to help out, but you're doing a great job, and I'm pressed for time.

Let's see what Unreel has to say . . .?

He won't be able to refute a thing you've brought up.

-- Gregg (g.abbott@starting-point.com), January 04, 2000.

Hawk....that's an interesting name you have. Let's see... H in the Etruscan numerical system stands for 355. A is obviously the Hebrew "aleph": 1. W is the shhh-letter in Russian: the 18th letter. K is ancient Urdu for 292. Hmmmm.....355 + 1 + 18 + 292 = 666 OHMYGOD!!!!!!!!!!!!

-- Unreel (cometo@tention.net), January 04, 2000.


Now how did I know you were going to be right about Unreel? :)

-- Interested Spectator (is@the_ring.side), January 04, 2000.

Lol Unreel! I guess you think it is just a coincidence that there is a pyramid on the dollar bill, or maybe some other reason, like maybe George Washington was an Egyptian eh? Yeah, that makes sense!

I have come to the conclusion that "Unreel" is the same person that has previously been posting as "Realistic," and he finally accepted the fact that he is not realistic at all after I pointed it out to him, so he changed to a more accurate name. I also conclude that he can't be more than about 13 years old since his view of the world is so very naive. Run along now boy, it's past your bedtime.

-- Hawk (flyin@high.again), January 04, 2000.

Gregg and I.S.: there is no refuting your circular reasoning, statements that prove themselves, made-up quotations, references that don't exist, and the other nonsense spewed out from the John Birch Society or the Church of the Creator or wherever for the comfort of the frustrated and gullible. There is no sensible refutation to Founding Father fetishists who insist that they are plaster saints incapable of ignorance or error (but you forgot somehow to mention Hamilton). There is no use talking to someone who will take an 1899 tract over a 1999 textbook (ANY of them) to tell us what exists in 2000. There is no rational arguing with people who will refute any fact with the claim that it was planted by the Insider boogiemen to dupe us, and all the statistics are lies anyway.

Oh, one example: Andrew Jackson. Like all politicians, he took the stands that he believed would bring him the most votes. He fought against the Second Bank of the U.S. (which, like the First was not a true central bank anyway) to impress a lot of rustic rubes. Why not? There are always a few congressmen, even to this day, who make a posture of Fed-bashing. McFadden included. Dorgan and Gonzales today. The vast majority of Congress has the good sense to listen politely and brush them aside.

-- Unreel (cometo@tention.net), January 04, 2000.

Regarding the $ bill, and the symbolism of the Illuminati:

One can read at the base of the 13-story pyramid, the year 1776 (MDCCLXVI in Roman numerals). Most of the people think it represents the date of the signing of the American Declaration of Independence, but it actually memorializes the foundation of the Order of the Illuminati, which was on May 1, 1776.

The pyramid represents the conspiracy for the destruction of the Catholic Church (and all existing religions), and the establishment of a one world government, or a United Nations dictatorship. The eye radiating in all directions, is the "all-spying" eye that symbolizes the terroristic, Gestapolike, espionage agency that Weishaupt set up to guard the "secret of the Order and to terrorize the populace into the acceptance of its rule. The Latin words "ANNUIT COEPTIS" mean "our entreprise (conspiracy) has been crowned with success." "NOVUS ORDO SECLORUM" explains the nature of the enterprise: a "Nuw Social Order" or a "New World Order".

This insignia was adopted by the U.S. Congress as the reverse of the seal of the United States on September 15, 1789. (The obverse side of the seal bears the eagle, which is used as the official seal and coat of arms of the U.S.A. is also shown on the reverse side of the U.S. $1.00 bills.)

The appearance of this insignia of the Illuminati on U.S. dollar bills in 1933 meant that the followers of Weishaupt regarded their efforts as beginning to "be crowned with success," and that they totally controlled the U.S. Government.

-- me (hello@goodbye.net), January 04, 2000.

Why would you want to know this? Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.

-- Lars (lars@indy.net), January 04, 2000.


You obviously are speculating about Andrew Jackson. He was the most unpopular person in the United States while he was getting rid of the central bank at that time. It was the rest the public that was suffering immensely because the banks were causing havoc among for them and they were pleading with Jackson to LET the central bank stay.

With respect to reading a book written in 1899, I said you don't study history. The Comming Battle documents all the laws that were put into place gave the bankers the power they wanted. The 1913 Federal Reserve Act was just the final act in a long play. If you want to study a 1999 book to understand what happend between 1860-1899 just before the Federal Reserve was set up in 1913, fine. But I like most intelligent people prefer to go to source material.

WRT to your other comments about sources that don't exist - are you telling me the Laws that Congress has inacted since the Declaration of Independence don't exist so we can't read them to see if what I say, for example, about gold being required for payment of bond interest and import duties, is false.

As I said I'm not interested in your speculation and opinion. Prove to me that the laws do not exist? Prove to me that Jackson did what was popular? Prove to me that what I said is false? You didn't do that but began your arm flailing and broad generalizations. Why is it the default position of the eggheads is always to do this rather bring specific clear evidence to answer spcific clear issues? I'll tell you why. Its because they're never want to do some work to even find out if they are right because they do not *know* for sure if they are right as they just speculate and are afraid of even finding out if they are right.

-- Interested Spectator (is@the_ring.side), January 04, 2000.

Just as a clarification, the banks during Andrew Jackson's time were putting the squeeze on the public, calling back loans, refusing credit etc. as that was the pressure point they had against Jackson and were hoping that the suffering they were inflicting on the public would cause Jackson to leave their "baby" alone.

BTW, I ask you if such privatly owned central banks with the power to issue currency were needed then why did the framers put special provisions in the Constitution against such organizations? Obviously they are not as "modern" as you would like to believe and in fact, were very well understood over 300 years ago when the Bank of England was setup in 1692. The reason they are perpetrated until today is simple. To the banker families who have been in that business for a few centuries its simply a matter of :"Why get rid of a good thing, its our business and we don't want anybody else to play in our sandbox".

-- Interested Spectator (is@the_ring.side), January 04, 2000.

I.S.: there is nothing in the Constitution that disallows the Fed.

Read the Constitution carefully: it gives Congress the "RIGHT to coin money" and forbids state governments from doing so. [By the way, since there was already a fractional-reserve banking system in 1787, "to coin money" means controlling RESERVES, not the full created money supply.] It does NOT say that Congress MUST coin money, nor does it forbid them from delegating that power to a private organization. Court case after case has confirmed that.

-- Unreel (cometo@tention.net), January 04, 2000.

Unreel you moron, the entire establishment of the Federal Reserve was an unconstitutional act because it was pushed through without the required number of congressional votes. They've been making their own rules all along.

me, thanks for that symbol info - good stuff.

-- Hawk (flyin@high.again), January 04, 2000.

Hawk, you pathetic imbecile, that old didn't-pass argument is a myth. Go to: http://www.cofc.edu/~flaherty/conspire.html#2. In fact, read that whole Fed conspiracy debunking site for some education.

By the way, I am a 43-year-old professor of economics. Now I think you should get permission from your mom before doing any more posting.

-- Unreel (cometo@tention.net), January 05, 2000.

Give me a break. You say:

"It does NOT say that Congress MUST coin money, nor does it forbid them from delegating that power to a private organization."

And next you'll tell me its ok for the government to delegate the army and police force to private industry and that that would be in the best interests of the people (a la RoboCop - have you bought your shares in it yet).

Of course it does not say they can not delegate it. Neither does any other item in the Constitution because that is such a absurd notion only idiots would play semantic games and think that is ok. The words are there for a reason. It is not possible to include in any human communications every negative thing our mind can make up. So we say only what is possible. They said what is possible. Only Congress can coin the money.

You still did not answer my questions and that is were Jefferson, Jackson, et al *AND* all the others that worked with them morons? Can you explain why during Jackson's time the banks plunged the economy and the average person into dire straights like those during the depression like kids throwing a trantrum when their favorite toy was going to be take away (hint: may be they didn't want their power usurped by the government they userped it from to begin with)?

Its idiots like you who belive nothing and so fall for any old explaination that allow TPTB that get away with what they do. Wasn't it some American tycoon that once said "Never underestimate the stupidity of the American public".

You said in earlier post that you would rather read an 1999 book rather than an 1899 book to find out what we have right now. Well let me ask if you were to write a book, I'm sure it would parrot what you have already been told. And the next generation will do the same thing. Oh, I get it you follow the proverb: monkey see, monkey do.

I rest my case.

-- Intereseted Spectator (is@hte_ring.side), January 05, 2000.

Stop believing the conspiracy nuts, they read doom into everything.

For real info on the seals go to:

http://www.greatseal.com/in dex.html

-- hamster (hamster@mycage.com), January 05, 2000.


FWIW I don't particularly care about the seal, but I did take a look at the site you gave.

Give me a break will you.

That site as absolutly no info about why the eye and the pyramid is on the seal and instead just presents a lot of opinionated bunf about what it *could* mean from a relgious point of view if you buy into paganism, icon and idol worship. There are no facts there to say that it has the "real info on the seals" as you put it.

From what I understand about those posting on the seal symbols, is that they symbols are really just logos by which various groups can leave their mark so those in the know understand which group has its say in that social arena where the symbol was left. (For example the group that uses the eye and the pyramid as its symbol has placed it on the currency for all to see that they are in control of the monetary matters).

-- Interested Spectator (is@the_ring.side), January 05, 2000.

The Council on Foreign Relations and The Trilateral Commission


The two organizations that run the United States!!! There are two groups of elite men and women in particular that most American people do not know about, but which are a clear threat and danger to the freedom of the American people. These are the Council on Foreign Relations (CFR) and the Trilateral Commission.

Right now the United States is completely under the control of those who run these two organizations. It is therefore important to understand these organizations if we wish to understand what has been taking place in the United States since the early 1900s.

Edward Mandell House

The Council on Foreign Relations was founded in 1921 by Edward Mandell House, who had been the chief advisor of President Woodrow Wilson. Actually, he was more than just a prominent aide of the President; he dominated the President. He was referred to as Wilsons "alter ego" (other self), and was credited for being the most powerful individual in the United States during the Wilson Administration from 1913 until 1921.

House was a Marxist whose goal was to socialize the United States. In 1912, House wrote the book "Philip Dru: Administrator" in which he stated that he was working for "Socialism as dreamed of by Karl Marx." In this book, House laid out a plan for the conquest of America, telling how both the Democratic and Republican Parties would be controlled, and be used as instruments in the creation of a socialistic government. And he asked for the establishment of a state-controlled central bank, which were both proposed in "The Communist Manifesto". And it was in 1913, during the very first year of the House-dominated Wilson Administration, that both of these proposals became law. The Federal Reserve Act was passed, which brought into power a private central bank to create the money of the United States, taking this power away from the united States Congress. And the 16th Amendment to the United States Constitution, the graduated income tax as proposed by Karl Marx, was also ratified.

The Council on Foreign Relations

In 1921, House and his friends formed the Council on Foreign Relations whose purpose right from its conception was to destroy the freedom and independence of the United States, and to lead the country into a one-world government.

Right from its beginning, in 1921, the CFR began to attract men of power and influence. In the late 1920s, important financing for the CFR came from the Rockefeller Foundation and the Carnegie Foundation. In 1940, at the invitation of President Roosevelt, members of the CFR gained domination over the State Department, and they have maintained this domination ever since.

The late Carroll Quigley (Bill Clintons mentor), Professor of History at Georgetown University, member of the CFR, stated in his book, "Tragedy & Hope":

"The CFR is the American Branch of a society which originated in England, and which believes that national boundaries should be obliterated, and a one-world rule established."

Rear Admiral Chester Ward, a former member of the Cfr for 16 years, warned the American people of the organizations intentions:

"The most powerful clique in these elitist groups have one objective in common  they want to bring about the surrender of the sovereingty of the national independence of the United States. A second clique of international members in the CFR comprises the Wall Street international bankers and their key agents. Primarily, they want the world banking monopoly from whatever power ends up in the control of global government."

And Dan Smoot, a former member of the FBI Headquarters staff in Washington, D.C., summarized the organizations purpose as follows:

"The ultimate aim of the CFR is to create a one-world socialist system, and to make the U.S. an official part of it."

In other words, the CFRs activities are treasonous to the U.S. Constitution. Their goal is to put an end to the United States of America, and to make the country a part of their global government scheme.

In 1944 and in 1948, the Republican candidate for President, Thomas Dewey, was a CFR member. In later years, Republicans Eisenhower and Nixon were members of the CFR, as were Democrats Stevenson, Kennedy, Humphrey, and McGovern. (Note: We believe Kennedy became disloyal to the CFR prior to his assassination.") The American people think that they have a choice when they vote for a President, but the truth of the matter is , with few exceptions: Presidential candidates for decades have been CFR members.

In one of the CFRs annual reports, published in 1978, it listed a membership of 1878 members. Eleven of its members at this time were United States Senators, with even more Congressmen belonging to the organization. 284 of its members listed in this report were United States Government officials. And the Chairman of the Board of this immensely powerful pyramid was stated as being none other than David Rockefeller himself.

The CFR not only has its members in the United States Government, but its influence has also spead to other vital areas of American life. According to Newell: "Its members have run, or are running, NBC and CBS, The New York Times, The Washington Post, The Des Moines Register, and many other important newspapers. The leaders of Time, Newsweek, Fortune, Business Week, and numerous other publications are CFR members. The organizations members also dominate the academic world, top corporations, the huge tax-exempt foundations, labor unions, the military, and just about every segment of American life."

Barry Goldwater states in his book, "With No Apologies", on page 231:

"Does it not seem strange to you that these men just happened to be CFR and just happened to be on the Board of Governors of the Federal Reserve, that absolutely controls the money and interest rates of this great country without benefit of Congress? A privately owned organization, the Federal Reserve, which has absolutely nothing to do with the United States of America!"

and Newell continues to write: "Not every member of the CFR is fully committed to carrying out Edward Mandell Houses conspiratorial plan. Many have been flattered by an invitation to join a study group, which is what the CFR calls itself. Others go along because of personal benefits, such as a nice job and a new importance. But all are used to promote the destruction of U.S. sovereignty."

The members of the CFR dominate almost every aspect of American life, yet most Americans have never even heard of the Council on Foreign Relations. One reason for this is probably because there are over 170 journalists, correspondents, and communications executives who are members of the CFR, and who do not write about the organization. Also, it is an express condition of membership that no one is to disclose what goes on at CFR meetings.

Congressmen John R. Rarick had warned:

"The CFR, dedicated to one-world government, financed by a number of the largest tax-exempt foundations, and wielding such power and influence over our lives in the areas of finance, business, labor, military, education, and mass communication-media, should be familiar to every American concerned with good government, and with preserving and defending the U.S. Constitution and our free-enterprise system. Yet, the nations right-to-know machinery, the news media, usually so aggressive in exposures to inform our people, remain conspicuously silent when it comes to the CFR, its members and their activities.

"The CFR is the establishment. Not only does it have influence and power in key decision-making positions at the highest levels of government to apply pressure from above, but it also finances and uses individuals and groups to bring pressure from below, to justify the high level decisions for converting the U.S. from a sovereign Constitution Republic into a servile member of a one-world dictatorship."

The CFR now has its main headquarters at the corner of park Avenue and 68th Street in New York City, in a building given to the organization by the Rockefeller family in 1929. Its main goal is still to create a one-world government by destroying the freedom and independence of all nations, especially the United States. And David Rockefeller continues to be its Chairman of the Board.

The Trilateral Commission

Unfortunately, the Council on Foreign Relations is not the only group proposing an end to the sovereignty of the United States. In 1973, The Trilateral Commission was founded to work for the same goal: a one-world government.

The Trilateral Commission's roots stem from the book, "Between Two Ages", written by Zbigniew Brzezinski in 1970. In this book, Brzezinski praised Marxism, thought of the United States as obsolete, and praised the formation of a one-world government. His thinking closely parallels that of CFR founder Edward Mandell house.


On page 72, Brzezinski writes: "Marxism is simultaneously a victory of the external, active man over the inner, passive man and a victory of reason over belief."

On page 83, he states: "Marxism disseminated on the popular level in the form of Communism, represented a major advance in man's ability to conceptualize his relationship to his world."

On page 123, we find: "Marxism supplied the best available insight into contemporary reality."

What Mr. Brzezinski fails to tell his readers is that approximately 100 million human beings have been murdered under Marxism "in the form of Communism" just in this Twentieth Century. It has enslaved a billion more, and has been responsible for those who live in Communist-dominated countries. There is nothing like being brainwashed!

For world government

Zbigniew Brzezinski's "Between Two Ages" was published in 1970 while he was a professor in New York City. David Rockefeller read the book and, in 1973, launched the new Trilateral Commission, whose purposes include linking North America, Western Europe, and Japan "in their economic relations, their political and defense relations, their relations with developing countries, and their relations with Communist countries."

As Newell writes: "The original literature of The Trilateral Commission also states, exactly as Brzezinski's book had proposed, that the more advanced Communist States could become partners in the alliance leading to world government. In short, David Rockefeller implemented Brzezinski's proposal."

Rockefeller appointed Zbigniew Brzezinski to be the Director of The Trilateral Commission.

Jimmy Carter

In 1973, Jimmy Carter became a student of Brzezinski, and a founding member of the Trilateral Commission.

On March 21, 1978, "The New York Times" featured an article about Zbigniew Brzezinski's close relationship with the President. In part, it reads: "The two men met for the first time four years ago when mr. Brzezinski was executive director of The Trilateral Commission and had the foresight to ask the then obscure former Governor of Georgia to join its distinguished ranks. Their initial teacher-student relationship blossomed during the campaign, and appears to have grown closer still."

To think that the teacher in this relationship praised Marxism, and wanted to form a one-world government. And the student was to become ghe President of the united States.

During the 1976 political campaign, Carter repeatedly told the nation that he was going to get rid of the Establishment Insiders if he became president. But when he took office, he promptly filled his Administration with members of the Council on Foreign Relations (284 to be exact) and The Trilateral Commission, the two most prominent insider organizations in America. Included in this list of members of The Trilateral Commission were Walter Mondale and Dr. Henry Kissinger.

Beginning with Jimmy Carter, all the recent presidents, including president Clinton, have promptly filled their administrations with members of the Council on Foreign relations and The Trilateral Commission.

The common everyday American citizen does not need to be told that there is a controlled government running the United States. But when we understand exactly what the Council on Foreign Relations and The Trilateral Commission are, and how its members hold key positions in the Government, it becomes all the more clear.

As Newell writes: "The effects of the Council on Foreign Relation and The Trilateral Commission on the affaires of our nation is easy to see. Our own Government no longer acts in its own interest, we no longer win any wars we fight, and we constantly tie ourselves to international agreements, pacts, and conventions. And, our leaders have developed blatant preferences for Communist U.S.S.R., Communist Cuba, and Communist China, while they continue to work for world government, which has always been the goal of Communism

"The real goal of our own Governments leaders is to make the United States into a carbon copy of a Communist state, and then to merge all nations into a one-world system run by a powerful few."

Barry Goldwater once stated on this subject:

"The Trilateral Commission is international, and it is intended to be the vehicle for multinational consolidation of the commercial and banking interests by seizing control of the political government of the United States. The Trilateral Commission represents a skillful, coordinated effort to seize control and consolidate the four centers of power  political, monetary, intellectual, and ecclesiastical."

As with the CFR, not all the members of The Trilateral Commission are fully committed to the destruction of the United States. Some just go along for the ride, to obtain fame, comfortabel living, and constatn flattery. But some, of course, really do run things and some, of course, really do run things and work against the independence of the united States.

In conclusion

The American people may think that they live in a free country when, in reality, things could not be more controlled. The American public must be made aware of what is really taking place in the united States.

The key to obtain our freedom, to have a true independence, is to free ourselves from the yoke of International Finance. How true it is to state that those who control the money of a country control everything in that country.

The first step is prayer: to kneel down before Almighty God and to ask Him to save America, to shower His blessings on this great land.

And second; to educate the population. Every citizen of the United States should become informed about these inside organizations, and make it a point not to vote nor to promote those, who are members for these organizations. And to demand a reform of the financial laws of the country, especially to repeal the Federal Reserve Act of 1913, and to implement the philosophy of Social Credit into the laws of the country.

-- me (me@dot.com), January 06, 2000.


-- xyz (paranoia@willdestroya.com), January 06, 2000.


Thank you for that nice post. I have read part of "Trajedy and Hope" and recommend it highly to all who want to learn about the real history of the first part of the 20th century. I'm not sure if it's still available even though amazon list it at:

Trajedy and Hope

WRT to the press and the conentration of its power into just a handful of people, here is a thread all should read

The truth or lack of it.

Just as an aside for those who don't believe that our government does not work in our best interests, just see what our government did to the men and women serving our country during the Gulf War as shown by the government's own documents (the long and the short of it is that they subjected them to the tremendous amounts of low level radiation - the new nuclear war - and that the symptoms of Gulf War Syndrome are almost identical to those suffering from radiation exposure sicknesses):

Glowing in the Gulf, Radiation, Genetically Engineered Drugs, and the Gulf War Syndrome

------ Exerpts follow ---------

A general forum for serious discussion of events in the news. Reasonable leeway for all points of view will be tolerated but malicious or purposely disruptive posts will be deleted without notice. John Swinton of the NY Times, at his 1953 retirement dinner at the NY Press Club, gave the reason for the need of forums such as this in his following speech: "There is no such thing, at this date of the world's history, as an independent press. You know it and I know it. There is not one of you who dares write your honest opinions, and if you did, you know beforehand that it would never appear in print. I am paid weekly for keeping honest opinions out of the paper I am connected with. Others of you are paid similar salaries for similar things, and any of you who would be so foolish as to write honest opinions would be out on the streets looking for another job. If I allowed my honest opinions to appear in one issue of my paper, before 24 hours my occupation would be gone. The business of a journalist is to destroy the truth; to lie outright; to pervert; to vilify; to fawn at the feet of mammon, and to sell the country for his daily bread. You know it and I know it and what folly is this toasting an independent press. We are the tools and vassals of the rich men behind the scenes. We are the jumping jacks, they pull the strings and we dance. Our talents, our possibilities and our lives are all the property of other men. We are intellectual prostitutes."


The comments of Bagdikian regarding the growing concentration of media ownership summarize the matter well:

When 50 men and women, chiefs of their corporations, control more than half the information and ideas that reach 249 million Americans, it is time for Americans to examine the institutions from which they receive their daily picture of the world.

The United States has an impressive array of mass communications. There are 1,700 daily newspapers, 11,000 magazines, 9,000 radio and 1,000 television stations, 2,500 book publishers and seven movie studios. If each of these were operated by a different owner there would be 25,000 individual media voices in the country . . .

And far from opening their systems to journalists, authors, dramatists, musicians and citizen groups, the big corporations are working to close them off to idiosyncratic outsiders and ideas. Theirs is a strategy of total control. They buy every possible means of delivery (print, broadcast, films, etc). They strive to use their own rather than independently produced material. Then they convert it to as many forms of media as they control. Even the world's scholarly, scientific and technical journals are now largely controlled by the big media barons . . .


Today there are nine major corporations dominating the global media (al though, as we shall see, two of the nine are actually controlled by one family). The nine major global media giants today are:


-- Interested Spectator (is@the_ring.side), January 10, 2000.

the power to get congress to pass an unconstitutional law that gives them the sole power to print the "US" dollar (really the Federal Reserve dollar which the US uses as its currency). The Constitution strictly states that only Congress shall have the power to coin money.

I don't get this part. I thought the US Mint prints the dollar. Who owns the US Mint? Where does the dollar go after it is printed?

-- Amy Leone (leoneamy@aol.com), January 11, 2000.

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