Has anyone else thought this explains all the terrorism/hacker warning?

greenspun.com : LUSENET : TimeBomb 2000 (Y2000) : One Thread

.....We've heard countless warnings from the .gov regarding the coming "terrorism," (poor use of the term, only governments can "terrorize" according to it's legitimate definition), viruses and hackers galore. I've listened to the freedom movement, militias, tax protestors etc.), on radio for years and never heard a call for violence, in fact, quite the contrary; they say whomever fires the first shot will lose.

.....I'm of the opinion that this flood of lies is simply a smokescreen for what y2k will bring, and an opportunity for justifying more draconian legislation, which has the sole purpose of further curtailing America's liberties. Anyone else?

-- Patrick (pmchenry@gradall.com), December 13, 1999


That is, of course, if the .gov manages to retain it's funtionality after the rollover...

-- Patrick (pmchenry@gradall.com), December 13, 1999.

Yes a lot of us.

-- none (none@none.com), December 13, 1999.

Out of chaos comes order,a new world order

-- eric micael (bizarr4@hotmail.com), December 13, 1999.

What I can't understand is all the word out there from the government on something that has less evidence of happening than Y2K. It also has the potential to panic people and they don't seem to be worried about that. But then again, it doesn't affect the economy, stupid.

-- Sheri (wncy2k@nccn.net), December 13, 1999.

The reduction of liberties may simply be a positive side effect to the drum banging of "terrorist, hackers, wackos, oh my." IMHO the chief and immediate benefit is that the .gov people have laid out a long list of scapegoats to cover their butts in case of any problems. In short, anything but Y2K. It seems that no matter what occurs after the roll over, they have the ready people to blame. Cash or food shortages? Right wing wacko horders. Something blows up in the US? Right wing wacko militias. Something blows up abroad? Terrorists. Power goes down? Hackers. Lost data and no welfare checks? Viruses. Clinton has already said that everything is fine and no national problems. Thus, if there is a national problem, it MUST BE someone elses fault. Don't forget that this is the man that can not ever take responsibility for anything, only credit.

-- smfdoc (smfdoc@aol.com), December 13, 1999.

Yes, of course, from the beginning with the warnings it seemed obvious that they will say, "No, it wwasn't Y2K, it was the BAD people."

-- Mara (MaraWayne@aol.com), December 13, 1999.

Then why do so many on this forum speak of expecting "terrorism?"

-- Patrick (pmchenry@gradall.com), December 13, 1999.

Patrick; I have talked about this in various places (in a round-about sort-of way) perviously but... I am an ISP in rural Virginia. I am also a Computer Scientist with a couple of decades of experience programming and developing systems. The viruses and hackers noises you are hearing from the government are most assuredly true (IMO). Not a week goes past that someone, somewhere doesn't atleast probe my servers. I have done security work for a number of the local providers. About half the time I find that they have been "hacked" and have outsiders using their mail accounts and "sniffing" their internal networks. Earlier this year I spent two months consulting (at no charge) for a Federal Agency with a consultant whom they had hired (and who was being paid) in an effort to chase down a group who were sniffing credit card information from one of our local ISP's. I was NOT impressed with the level of expertise of their consultant, but I was impressed with the agency's dedication to catching the culprit(s). Unfortunatly, we never did track them down. In the process we did track down two or three OTHER people who had also hacked into that provider's system (but they were mostly harmless, atleast not criminal).

There is a VERY serious problem on the Internet with hackers. For the most part these folks are what we call "script kiddies", children learning the game by running ready-made programs that the more experienced have written and made available. Some, however; are professional thieves who will penetrate a system and even take measures to improve it's performance. They are willing to do this for the opportunity to glean valuable information from the local network by "sniffing" the lan. They collect credit card information and logins and passwords for other networks as those items pass thru the local network. They then use that information to further compromise other networks and providers.

These folks are the professionals. They do it for the money. They will collect credit card information and go out to an auction site and make purchases with that information. They then immediatly turn the purchase over on another (or even the same) auction site for a bit less. Their purchases are typically in the five to ten dollar range their resales are typically twenty five percent less than their purchase price. Those people are in it for the money and they know how to do it.

As to virii, simply due to the rollover of the year 2000, the idiots will dump virii into the system. I think the FBI's estimate of 200,000 new virii this month is probably high. I would guess it will be more like ten times what is normal in any given year or about 15-30 thousand new virii this month. Most of them will be NO PROBLEM. Perhaps a dozen will cause problems and maybe half of those will cause serious problems such as clogging mail servers or taking down peoples systems.

As to cyber-terrorism which I view to be the hacking of critical infrastructure to deny service or access to that infrastructure. Nearly every global business is critically dependent upon the Internet for their communciations these days. Everything from the airline industry to the power producers use this medium for communications. This places their systems at risk of attack by an organized threat. Any system connected to the Internet is at risk, if you have trouble believing that, think on this. The National Security Agency will not place systems that process classified information directly on the Internet, absolutly will not, period, end of discussion. Been there KNOW THAT. Now if that agency, with all that talent, with the best minds the Fed can hire, is afraid of connecting a computer that contains their secrets to the Internet, WHAT DOES THAT TELL YOU about those critical industries like the power producers or the telephone company?

Hell yes there is a very real and true threat of cyber-terrorism on any given day, let alone on a day when it can be blamed upon something like the date change. Recently a few security experts discussing how hard it would be to take the Internet down stated that ANY ONE of them could do it in half a day. Check www.l0pht.com.

Do I believe that the Fed (in particular, Billy boy his-self) have used the media and cries of "terrorism, terrorism" to bull-shit their way thru problems? You damn right I do. Those Tomahawks we fired into Afganistan on the eve of the vote in the House on whether to impeach the bastard or not, were fired to distract the people and to suggest to Congress that he can do a hell of a lot more than just trash some folks in Afganistan. Had he left that sucker alone, we might not have to worry about what Hasma Ben Laben might be doing on New Years Eve, but alas... instead of getting the job done (killing the bad guy) all he did was break a bunch of his toys and PISS him off. That is the way it goes. Now we do have to worry.

Patrick, computer problems due to the date change are only a piece of the pie. The WHOLE problem is very complex. The whole problem is indeed that there is a threat of terrorism. There indeed is a threat of overt warfare. There indeed is a threat of panic in the streets and bank runs and yes indeed there will be problems due to the date change and the way it impacts software systems.

Looking at the WHOLE picture one sees a bleak and tense time ahead. Where we will not know with certainty exactly what it was that caused the Internet to drop out on any given day. We will not know if it was a y2k issue that took down the power or some intelligence agency in some third world country. We will not know whether the problems we are having with the phone company are due to y2k bugs or that afore mentioned intelligence agency. There is MUCH we will not know.

Unfortunatly, we will not know it in an environment where we are having trouble trusting our leadership, BECAUSE WE DID NOT ACT BY TELLING OUR CONGRESS TO KICK HIS ASS OUT OF OFFICE WHEN WE HAD THE CHANCE. OR WHO DID YOU CALL WHEN YOU HAD THE CHANCE?

-- (...@.......), December 13, 1999.

Here's my take (this is not fully thought out and it asssumes you already understand the TRUE nature of "Federal" Reserve).

To learn about the Fed see http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=001zOc

The Federal Reserve and other such central banks are the real power brokers of any country as they control the issuance of currency. The governments where they operate are completely at their mercy. If you don't believe me then believe the following:

President James Garfield observed that "Whoever controls the volume of money in any country is absolute master of all industry and commerce." And we shouldn't forget old Anselm Rothschild, founder of the clan: "Give me the power to issue a nation's money; then I do not care who makes the laws." It would seem settled, and indeed is obvious, that the creator of money in any community is a power to be reckoned with.

Now the Federal Reserve and Bank Of England are owned by Rothschilds and other German Banker Families and a few from the UK and are fully unaccountable to the governments of the countries they operate in and have never been audited.

These folks are getting a little tired of the games they have to play while each country has its own currency and would very much like to centralize all such central banks under their control along with the IMF and World Bank (which are the means by which they control countries whose central banks they do not directly control) under a world currency.

In order to institute a world currency there must be a catastrophy of such magnitude the when the populations are told the only way out of the mess is a world currency the populations will say "do it please, get us out of this suffering".

Well y2k just rolled along as the perfect cover. If y2k really causes a blow up, great we'll go ahead with our world currency plan. If y2k does not pan out to be a real bombshell, then we'll make it one (who's going to know the difference by the time they get all the staged virus releases, cyber attacks, and general armed goons mobilized)

So my guess is that the y2k effect will happen with or without computer problems. There will not be another chance for these people like y2k to cover up huge finacial debacles in such a nice tidy fashion.

Sounds out there, but then who would have believed the US Congress would pass a law in 1862 stating that the US Government's own currency will not be accpeted by the US Government for payment of the US Government's own taxes on its own citizens! (if you don't believe this check out the link to "The Comming Battle" (printed in 1899 and based on congressional records) in one of my replies at the URL at the begining of this reply).

-- Interested Spectator (is@aol.com), December 13, 1999.


.....Thank you for a very concise, informative answer. For the record, I happen to be one of those citizens that continually runs a thorn into the side of my own congresscritters, but the problem is that there are far too few of us to effect proper change. I was on both senators and several congressmen besides my own and always for more than just the impeachment issue.

.....I fear the "representatives" only represent themselves these days, as well as the money powers that buy them their offices. Indeed, Sir, America is moving into bleak days.

-- Patrick (pmchenry@gradall.com), December 13, 1999.

is@aol.com is IS.

-- (...@.......), December 13, 1999.

Interested Spectator...

.....I am quite familiar with that which you write, but don't be surprised if Ken Decker tries to debunk you, (albeit with someone else's "heavy lifting").

-- Patrick (pmchenry@gradall.com), December 13, 1999.

IS; Your post is interesting. Patrick; I believe you. Me too. There just weren't enough people who weren't fooled by Bill's BS. Back to what IS has to say. That is a very interesting point of view. I am of the opinion that the nebulous "they" who control the money supply DO NOT HAVE THE INFRASTRUCTURE to cause such a change of themselves BUT manipulation of the pawns might get it for them anyway. Hasama Ben Laben is one of the pawns. Bill is another. In such circles, everyone else is a pawn.

-- (...@.......), December 13, 1999.


.....Let's not forget our "friend" in Babylon, I mean Iraq.

-- Patrick (pmchenry@gradall.com), December 13, 1999.


That was an astounding post about terrorism. Thanks.

-- (Polly@troll.com), December 13, 1999.

Where can I find some of Ken Decker's prior debunking?

The "they" are not nebulous. The they are the 12 shareholders of the Federal Reserve that include the Rothschilds, Warburgs and a few others I can't remember off the top of my head, but have them bookmarked. I'll post them as soon as I find them.

I wouldn't be so sure they don't have the infrastructure. Any organization that owns and runs the Bank of England and Federal Reserve (and thereby control the volume and issuance of currency in those countries and therefore essentially run those countries) according to rules that are set at their pleasure (they have already got laws governing these two bodies passed to suit themselves many times over) have a lot of power and reach.

-- Interested Spectator (is@aol.com), December 13, 1999.


.....I believe there were a couple of "Fed" threads in the latter part of October, although I'm not sure which category they fell under for an archive search; Ironically, (to you and I at least), they were probably under the .gov heading. Ken won't get it on this issue, as he would rather argue about the individual trees that to even look up at the forest, actually, if one were to allow him, he'd probably get down to arguing the inividual blades of grass in tandem with how many pieces of gravel were in the surrounding area, as well as how many ants consider this home; on and on ad nauseum. He has no concept of anything on the macro level as I see it, and doesn't care to get one.

-- Patrick (pmchenry@gradall.com), December 13, 1999.

IS; Ok, they have infrastructure. I'll give that much BUT I am not willing to give them DIRECT control over organizations like Ben Laden's. That one is a zaelot, as are so many. Those folks don't dance to the tune of someone else (unless they don't know who is playing the music). Their goals are aimed at satisfying their IDEALS. It is when their IDEALS and someone else's goals coincide that they (the bad guys) are vulnerable to being USED by others to accomplish totally different ENDS. What I am saying is, "If you are correct in the theory you put forward, monies and means will be used to influence the actions of these other groups, not direct controll or direct orders." After all direct controll and direct orders are traceable, aren't they? Were one in such a powerful position as those of whom you speak, would it not be easier, for example, to have some head of state ensure that Ben Laden was provided the means to do the damage, than to interact with Ben Laden himself?

That is my point.

-- (...@.......), December 13, 1999.

Ken... Where are you?

-- (...@.......), December 13, 1999.


How vulnerable is the US .gov to cyber terrorism? You seem to be educated on this subject and actually, my wife is the curious one here. If it is vunerable, how much damage can be done?

-- Familyman (prepare@home.com), December 13, 1999.

@ and IS, thank you both for your excellent posts.

My take:


We've been set up before, many times

Y2K couldn't be more ripe for those that like to set it up/set it off

As usual, the big money boys and their power slaves will get away with whatever mayhem they decide is to their advantage to create or play off of

As usual, it will be the other 99.999999999% of us that will pay for it

-- holding my breath (horriblestink@truth.reeks), December 14, 1999.

Having researched the political aspects of all this for a period of years, my opinion of this follows in line with "Interested Spectator". I believe that back in the 1960's the powers that be were searching for just the right vehicle to bring about a world government and one world currancy. It had to be a global emergency in scope to unite all the people of the world in a common cause. The original planned vehicle was "the environment", and while it's become an issue, it just didn't become a global emergency. Then along comes Y2K, and this fits the whole scheme......global, threatening all walks of life, threatening the very basics of life, and all happening within a limited time frame. Give the powers that be a global emergency, and they'll come up with a solution.

-- Linda (lindasue1@earthlink.net), December 14, 1999.

WRT to Ken Decker he may be able to poke a few holes in my theory not because he has any special knowledge, but because even I can do that becuase I am only postulating a theory. Being an outsider to the schemers I can only speculate based on what I see when the many (but not all) dots are connected.

WRT to Ken Decker poking holes in what the Federal Reserve is, that would be difficult to do unless he is willing to refute decades of Congressional Records, many court cases and testimony from prominent people and be able to demonstrate the Framers of the Constitution, Jefferson, Jackson, McFadden and many luminaries from Americas past were all fighting some fantom and that text of the actual laws which were passed by congress concerning the Federal Reserve are all bogus. (some examples are listed below - if you require more examples and proof read the info in the links provided in my posts in http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=001zOc)

nuff said about Ken, now back to this thread.

FYI, I have been a software engineer, IS manager, CIO at a bank, and so forth in the computer industry for over 20 years. I have a degree in Computer Science and Mathematics.

Bin Ladden is a pip-squeak. I would not worry about him. He is just the latest patsy promoted by .gov to distract you from the real power-brokers - the Federal Reserve. I mean lets compare who is more powerful. Does Bin Ladden compare to this (and after all, all you know about Bin Ladden is what the press told you - how do you know it is even true - we know what is list below is irrefutable fact and the press who pride themselves on "investigative reporting" can't (won't, ordered not to) report on this which is the truth):

Federal Reserve/European Banker Families have:

a) the power to get congress to pass an unconstituional law that gives them the sole power to print the "US" dollar (really the Federal Reserve dollar which the US uses as its currency). The Constitution strictly states that only Congress shall have the power to coin money.

So hideous is the Federal Reserve Act that it fully realized the Constitutional Framers worst fears.

You may be surprised to learn that the Federal Reserve is the fourth central bank the United States has had, the previous three having crashed in inevitable raging inflation and widespread economic disaster. So clearly did our Founders understand and fear worthless paper money forced on the public by legal tender laws (precisely what we now have) that they filled the proceedings of the Constitutional Convention with statements of their horror of it. Americans today, deprived of hearing such truth, need to listen to their words:

* George Mason of Virginia: I have a mortal hatred of paper money.

* John Langdon of New Hampshire: I would rather reject the whole [Constitution] than grant the new government the right to issue fiat money."

* George Reed of Delaware: The right to issue fiat money would be as alarming as the mark of the beast in Revelation."

* Thomas Paine: The punishment of a member of Congress who should move for such a law ought to be death."

b) the power to get congress to pass a law to allow them to remain private and unregualted, unauditable accountable to no one and pay no tax even though they are a private organization.

c) the power in 1862 to force the Congress to pass a law that states that the US government should not accept its own currency on import duties it levies on its own citizens and that the US government must accept payment of its Bonds in paper currency but pay interest to the bond holders in gold. Effectively they have the power to make the US Government announce to the world we don't think our currency is good enough for these two items and only gold should be used. Guess where they had to buy the gold from to pay the interest on the original debt. Guess where the importers had to buy the gold from to pay the duties. Guess who got all the gold back when the government paid its interest on its bonds. The bankers who bought the bonds in the first place.

d) The power to cause the US debt to go from $1B in 1913 when the Fed was set up to $24B by the late 20's. How? Because the Federal Government must borrow money simply to keep the currency in circulation. Ever heard of anything so stupid. Yet that is what has been going on since 1913. Ever wonder why the debt keeps growing. It is mathematically not possible for it be paid back.

e) the power to bring a sitting president to his knees and state after he signed the Federal Reserve Act to state:

"I am a most unhappy man. I have unwittingly ruined my country. A great industrial nation is controlled by its system of credit. Our system of credit is concentrated. The growth of the nation, therefore, and all our activities are in the hands of a few men. We have come to be one of the worst ruled, one of the most completely controlled and dominated Governments in the civilized world no longer a Government by free opinion, no longer a Government by conviction and the vote of the majority, but a Government by the opinion and duress of a small group of dominant men."

The Bottom Line is as we understand from my earlier reply this means they control the country. If the government wishes to do X, and the Feds don't agree X will not be done. If the Feds want to do Y, the government will comply else the Feds will induce a financial crisis that would get the government thrown out. End of story.

This is called power. This is the power to dicate the American Government. This is the power to have the full resources of the American Government at your disposal to do with as you please. Do not assume for a moment that this power will be foresaken for any body.

This power has been enjoyed be these Banker Families since 1694.

In 1694 William III was involved in a war with France. He needed money and he needed it in large quantities. The British coffers were empty so he asked for vast loans of money from a super-rich Englishman named William Paterson and some of his wealthy friends. Paterson and his friends were perfectly agreeable to the loan providing they were allowed to do two things:

1.Set up a privately-owned bank to be called the Bank of England.

2.Receive authority from the king to issue their own bank notes or certificates as the official legal tender of England.

Forget about Bin Laden he is a nobody. He is just a distraction to keep your attention away from the real worry: The Federal Reserve. You are slaves of the Federal Reserve through your taxes which go to pay them interest and their control of inflation. They require you to pay taxes so they can collect interest. They require the IRS for this. The IRS requires Social Security for this as that is how they have juridiction over you. Guess what everybody knows Social Security is the only government agency that has been taking y2k seriously and has been working on it for 10 years. Ever wonder why? Its because they won't let their jurisdiction and control fail.

In 1862 the Bank of England/Rothschilds (do not be deceived by name, "Bank of England"; Bank of England was/is a *private* bank) issued, and distributed to American banksters, the following document, The Hazard Circular, quoted in part below:

"Slavery is likely to be abolished by the war power, and chattel slavery abolished. This, I and my European friends are in favor of, for slavery is but the *owning of labor*, and carries with it the *care of labor*, while the European plan, led on by England, is that capital shall control labor by controlling wages. The great debt that capitalists will see to it is made out of the [Civil] war must be used to control the value of money. To accomplish this, the Government bonds must be used as a banking basis.

"We are now waiting for the Secretary of the Treasury of the United States to make this recommendation. It will not do to allow greenbacks, as they are called, to circulate as money any length of time, as we cannot control that, but we can control the bonds and through them the bank issues.

Like I said this is called power, the rest is irrelevant and just a distraction to keep your mind busy.

-- Interested Spectator (is@aol.com), December 14, 1999.


You've obviously read/heard of the Report from Iron Mountain or read the Creature from Jekyll Island.

To the uninitiated that stuff is way out there until one realizes that this sort of stuff goes on. And that will only happen when one can get irrifutable evidience such as McFadden's speach or "The Comming Battle". I recommend you bring this to the attention of anybody you talk to.

Even if they don't believe, these two items are amongst the most rivetting reading your friends will come across and make Tom Clancy's novels read like kindergaten stories. So either way they don't loose to read the items.

-- Interested Spectator (is@aol.com), December 14, 1999.


Could you elaborate on Mcfaddens speach and the "Coming Battle" also who is the sitting president you referred to in (approx.15th paragraph)

I tend to see a more intricate story unfolding with y2k being a lucky or convenient means to an end,the terrorism etc.along with the spin is a way of keeping our eyes off the prize,FREEDOM AND HAPPINESS.


Smokescreen is appropriate if not under-rated.

-- ABC (yo7@bellsouth.net), December 14, 1999.

Sorry, I meant to put his name in but forgot. The president was Woodrow Wilson.

You can read McFadden's to Congress youself at:


If you don't want any editorial, skip the first few screen fulls and go straight to the speech, although the info at the begining is useful for new comers to the topci.

For a the feedback from just one reader on this forum who read it look at:


The Comming Battle can be read at:


-- Interested Spectator (is@aol.com), December 14, 1999.

We have a winner! Spectator (Interested) is simply telling you the facts, and is giving voice to the same reservations about our Central Banks that Tom Jefferson would, would he were alive. I apply this maxim: "your real masters are those you can't criticize." You can mock Bill 'puppet' Clinton till the cows come home, but you must never, EVER utter one word of reproach about the Federal Reserve and their IRS minions. But I will go one up on you, IS: I think that the global money power is the nexus of satanism, eager everywhere to export starvation and abortion for their profit and power. They work everywhere to cause divisions and ruin, and they crush all opposition like the ruthless fascists they really are. Their armies of lickspittles work tirelessly to defend the great Mammon-Masters, eager for the thirty bloodied coins. The world view, the weltenshaaung, they promote is anti-Christic, inhuman, and wholely evil, and at the upper echelons they plot mass-murder and starvation as some foul parlor game. They will bastardize the genetic code to create hybrid chimeras for profit, they insist that human populations be controlled (ie. the number of human beings be reduced--purely satanic thinking), and that nations impoverished by colonialism grow not food but cash export crops (jute, rubber, tea, cocoa, coca, heroin) even if it means the starvation of the masses. They enjoy human death and suffering: they are the Anti-Life.

-- Spidey (free@last.Amen), December 14, 1999.

Spidey, say what you mean, don't beat around the bush so much.

-- Nezber (on@theroad.again), December 14, 1999.

IS - sounds like you connect the dots pretty well. Keep posting!

-- Amy Leone (leoneamy@aol.com), December 14, 1999.

Oh, Ken the shill decker or whatever else he calls himself can't refute this: he just waves his hands dismissively, and calls us loons. Which is what his .gov employers pay him to do. Onions like Kenny are useful idiots in keeping the populace asleep to their slavery to the banks. They would sell their mothers if told to do so by their employer; without a scruple in the world, they pretend to be holier than thou. Ignore their vaporings--it is all piss and snot.

-- Mr. Warrick (The@Big.House), December 14, 1999.


As was said in a Star Trek NG episode by an alien leader Picard was trying communicate with.

"His eyes wide open!!"

I suggest that all of you take a copy of this thread and keep in on your hard disk. Send it to anybody and everybody you can. Our main enemy in this "Comming Battle" (now you see where the name came from) is our own ignorance. A an educated aware population standing united can put an end to this nonsense. Also take a copy of this thread,


I think my last couple of retorts against the ignorant are well said, even if I do say so myself.


You may be right, however in this business if you wish to have any impact the only thing that people will believe is irrefutable fact. The people are sheep and as it is can not, will not, think that "their" governments can do what they are until proof like I have shown is presented. Therefore I suggest if you wish to have maximum bang for your vocal minuites with whom ever you talk with (and at the same time have the pleasure of watching eyes opening) stick to only IRREFUTABLE facts like those I provide. I have my own opinions which extrapolate further out these schemes, but I'll only give them when they can be proved.

Now for those who would like to see just how far your government will go to hurt you. Read the following:


and see how they will use the boys in the army, who put their lives on the line, as pawns.

Here's a very small sampler from the article:

The U.S. escaped the 1991 Gulf war with few direct casualties. While 250,000 Iraqis were killed outright by the U.S. and another 750,000 died as a result of the U.N.'s international embargo spearheaded by the U.S., "only" 376 U.S. soldiers died in the Gulf; almost all of them were killed by so-called "friendly fire," shot accidentally by their fellow soldiers.(1) The fourteen U.S. MlA1 Abrams tanks and fifteen U.S. Bradley Fighting vehicles destroyed in the Gulf war were knocked out by "friendly fire" as well.

All twenty-nine vehicles were hit by a new kind of ammunition: shells encased in "depleted uranium" (DU), which makes them super hard and able to penetrate all existing armor-plating. DU was used exclusively by U.S. and British forces in the Gulf not only as armor-penetrating ammunition by MlA1 Abrams tanks and A-10 attack planes, but as tank armor. DU, which is 1.6 times denser than lead, proved so effective that not a single U.S. tank was destroyed by Iraqi fire.

Over the course of the two month war, 3,700 Iraqi tanks were obliterated- 1,400 of them by shells encased in depleted uranium. Thousands of artillery pieces, armored personnel carriers and other equipment were destroyed by DU rounds. 940,000 30mm shells encased in depleted uranium were fired from U.S. planes, and 14,000 larger DU shells from tanks, along with an untold number of Tomahawk missiles tipped with depleted uranium. By war's end, roughly 300 tons of uranium from spent rounds lay scattered in various sizes and states of decay across the battlefields of Iraq and Kuwait.(2) Welcome to the wave of the future: '`low intensity" nuclear war, inaugurated in the Gulf War by the United States.(3) And, according to independent scientists, "a DU antitank round outside its metal casing can emit as much radiation in one hour as fifty chest X-rays."(5) A tank driver receives a radiation dose of 0.13 mrem/hr to his or her head from overhead DU armor,(6) which may seem like a very low dose. However, after 32 continuous days, or 64 12-hour days, the amount of radiation a tank driver receives to his head will exceed the Nuclear Regulatory Commission's standard for public whole-body annual exposure to man-made sources of radiation.(7) Unfortunately, U.S. tank crews were not monitored for radiation exposure during the Gulf war.(8)

With more than 600,000 pounds of depleted uranium left scattered throughout the region, by war's end the U.S. had turned the Gulf area into a deadly radioactive grid, affecting not only U.S. soldiers but hundreds of thousands, perhaps millions, of people who live in the Gulf. Is it any wonder that many symptoms of Gulf War Syndrome are so similar to radiation sickness?

Radioactivity inflicts severe damage on the total environment while weakening immune systems, destroying the kidneys, lungs, bones and liver, and rendering the human body susceptible to all sorts of diseases a healthy individual is able to ward off. Iraqi children continue to find uranium-coated shells; they have been coming down with all sorts of deadly illnesses associated with radiation poisoning. A secret report by the British government estimated that the use of depleted uranium weapons in the Gulf could alone account for 500,000 deaths in the region.(13) That report was based on estimates that 25 tons of depleted uranium munitions had been used; in actuality, the Department of Defense now estimates that the U.S. fired more than 12 times that amount.

and the article goes on.

This is not my primary interest but for those who are interested in how far the games will go, they go beyond servitude to taxes. You should be outraged at what we have done to the Iraqi people. What have they done to us to deserve this (not to mention what has happened to them with the sanctions)? They are just people like us with families, who believe in God (and FYI as Muslims even the Virgin Mary and the miraculous birth of Chirst - which makes them "closer" to Christiantiy than the Jewish and closer than the media would have you believe) and would like peace.

Its easy to say that they should get rid of their leader. But difficult to do when you're looking for food. Also why should they get rid of their leaders, if we can not, will not, are not, willing to do the same to ours who have done worse to us than theirs have done to them?

There are thousands of cases of Iraqi radiation side effects in birth defects etc. now reported. These are the result of your government turning the water and agricultural land the cradle of civilization into a waste land. The Iraqis had asked scientists to come and help them, or at least visit their conferences to understand what is happening. Did you know that nobody from outside Iraq visted these conferences. Not one scientist.

And now remember the last go round in Kosovo? Well the same thing has now happened there. As the article said:

Welcome to the wave of the future: '`low intensity" nuclear war, inaugurated in the Gulf War by the United States.

-- Interested Spectator (is@aol.com), December 14, 1999.


.....Most of the money issue that you have addressed is exactly what I went over with Decker, and all I got for my trouble was obfuscation and insults in a most condescending tone, to boot. Explain it to those who will listen, ignore the rest. .....Although at this point, I doubt that there is enough time. I've worked people over with this for eight years now and it seems that they're DWGI on that even moreso than on y2k.

-- Patrick (pmchenry@gradall.com), December 14, 1999.


I don't know who Decker is, but I'm sure I've run into his type. My approach to such people is to tell them the message and move on. I agree with you - explain to those who will listen, but sadly they don't come with a sign on their forhead so you never know who the are. So my approach is to provide a few eye-opening facts, such as those I provided in this thread. And do so repeatedly until I am ignored. The gurus in advertising know something very valuable about the human mind - repetition of a message is the key to getting the mind to come around to accepting it.

In general after such an approach I don't get laughed out, and the "other side" usually shuts up and listens to how they have been royally bilked. The next phase I run into is complacancy - "what's the use and its never going to change". Those are our real enemies and the powers that be understand that their job is really to make it look like "Resistance is Futile".

All I can say is that the more people know, even if they don't do anything yet, the better, because when the time comes, and believe me it will (as I belive it was Trueman who said something along the lines that "When the American People want peace then they will get it"), and there are people to take on these folks head first, then they will need a public that is aware and ready to back them up, not a public that needs to be educated at that time.

So nothing is ever too late because the game is always afoot as long as the Federal Reserve and the Bank of England exist. We are not in a race to finish this before y2k, we are in a slow but steady race over the long haul. Our enemy are long term players, but we know have the means to demolish them - the Internet. Knowledge is Power and the Internet lets us get the knowledge to everyone. This was not anticipated by our enemy and will be their undoing. Without a doubt.

It is not possible that we will loose this battle simply because once everybody knows we win by default. Remember Ghandi, he won because everybody knew what he wished them to know. Then he kicked out the most powerful empire simply becasue when the time came, the entire population were already aware and simply refused to cooperate.

So our job is to make everyone aware and understand. Even if they believe they can do nothing, that is ok, as long as they are aware and understand.

Any other course of action, is to condemn ourselves and our future generations back into the same darkness that those who came to the New World gave their lives to get away from. We only have to do one thing, learn about this and teach others who must then do the same. We don't have to give our lives, just use are minds and help others do the same.

-- Interested Spectator (is@aol.com), December 14, 1999.


You and I think alike - keep on posting!

-- Andy (2000EOD@prodigy.net), December 15, 1999.

Now take a look at my reply in:


P.S. (don't bother going to the hot link in the reply it comes back here).

-- Interested Spectator (is@aol.com), December 15, 1999.

As a correction to my reply above, it just struck me that we are on a deadline. Its the next election!!

If Donald Trump is serious about paying off the debt that would the start of the end of the Federal Reserve and the begining of Freedom. He must know this and if not bring it to his attention and provide him a copy of this thread.

When Trump lays out his platform my guess is that he can't attack the Fed directly but will hope the "analysts" will pick this up in the news. They won't and will not report on it even if they did. And that is why you must educate all your friends as I suggested above for the reasons I gave above.

For the record I have no affiliation with Donald Trump or his election campaign.

-- Interested Spectator (is@aol.com), December 15, 1999.

May I ask, wasn't it Trump that just contribuited a billion dollars to the U.N. over the next ten years...

-- (...@.......), December 15, 1999.

I don't know if Trump did, but the UN is a spineless jelly-fish. It has no power to do anything as long as there is a security council with even one country with veto power.

The only true real power in the world lies with and has always lay with those that control the volume of currency (i.e. those with the power to "print it") in a country as has been explained by our own presidents (and those that actually control the currency) as stated in my replies to this thread.

Believing anything else is just a distraction that you have been led to believe so you are distracted from the true target and opponent.

-- Interested Spectator (is@aol.com), December 15, 1999.

From: Y2K, ` la Carte by Dancr (pic), near Monterey, California

No. Turner.

-- Dancr (addy.available@my.webpage), December 15, 1999.

Link to the URL in my last message (I've learned how to do this finally)

IF Y2k is such a threat why is gold/silver so cheap

For the ignorant ostriches with their head in the sand there is are proverbs:

"Those who do not learn form history are doomed to repeat it." "Those that stick their head in the sand get their behinds kicked."

The final piece of the puzzle is now in play. Sit back and enjoy the show folks. You have a ring-side seat for the game of the millenium.

-- Interested Spectator (is@the_ring.side), December 15, 1999.

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