Are we missing the real Y2K message from Seattle?

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I am a retired Canadian, sitting here trying to make some sense out of the images that I have seen reported from Seattle.

What can explain police spraying and detaining protesters while ignoring masked and hooded people smashing windows only 10-15 feet away? Why are what appear to be nothing but pedestrians and even residents of the area being gassed? Why are babies and a 70 year old women being gassed and so many hit? Why do I see a policeman with his boot on the face of an individual laying motionless on his stomach?

Is this a trial run for Y2K, as some have suggested? Unfortunately, I am afraid it may be more than that. I think it is intended to teach us all a lesson for Y2K.

ANY RESISTANCE AT Y2K WILL BE FUTILE AS IT WILL BE MET WITH OVERWHELMING FORCE

I hope I am wrong and Seattle is just an isolated over-reaction. If I am right, I am afraid there is a danger of massive disturbances at Y2K that could even lead to a new civil war in America.

-- John (jh@NotReal.ca), December 03, 1999

Answers

Good questions, John.
Looks kinda like some old WWII footage I used to see of how the Nazis zeroed in on the Jews, kicking and slamming them around; those least able to defend themselves still get to taste the wrath of the brutish thugs.
I wonder if those cops involved in the rough treatment against some of the weaklings feel righteously justified in their actions, or were they just "doing their job"?
I would have trouble sleeping at night if it were me, but I'm just weird that way.

-- Jay Urban (Jayho99@aol.com), December 03, 1999.

Please remember, Seattle has imported State Police and National Guard to 'help out' because this is the only Hot Spot in the nation right now. This is not likely to be the case next month.

-- Dan G (earth_changes@hotmail.com), December 03, 1999.

John + Jay: yes, a MESSAGE is being sent, broadcast everywhere: you gather, assemble, protest, and YOU WILL BE CRUSHED, NO MERCY.

Horrible. "Overreaction" too lame an excuse. And they *know* IT IS TOO LATE for lawsuits and pursuit of normal justice to have any effect.

-- Ashton & Leska in Cascadia (allaha@earthlink.net), December 03, 1999.


exactly. The message is clear. You will be CRUSHED if you step out of line or even think you have rights. Nazi USA is here. Don was right.

-- Rickster (rickvester@yahoo.com), December 03, 1999.

No John, the 70 MILLION gun owners in America are an "overwhelming force". And we will NOT allow official-type thugs to destroy us. A thread from earlier (Sept) showed that over 9 MILLION rounds of ammunition were sold through a SINGLE distributor (to "regular people") in only 48 HOURS.

Wanna fight a REAL army? Take on the U.S. citizenry.

-- Dennis (djolson@cherco.net), December 03, 1999.



You almost had it John...Who are the MASKED and HOODED platoon of "Disciplined" rioters...

Some have tentatively been identified as...

Seattle Police Officers

A False Flag Operation right here in America.



-- Z (Z@Z.Z), December 03, 1999.


I don't know where our forum poster named "Liberty" has gone to. He was very proactive on Waco a few weeks ago. However, I'm sure he would agree with the following speculation:

This is yet another TEST of what Joe Sixpack will put up with. As with Waco, will Joe Sixpack mind if Federal authorities -- including Delta Force military personnel -- are on hand as "advisers"? Will Joe object if the brutalized "offenders" are portrayed as having anti-establishment beliefs? Especially if the world that the average Joe is living in is seemingly quite comfy, the DOW pumped up, the holidays coming....

Wake up and smell the coffee!

-- King of Spain (madrid@aol.cum), December 03, 1999.

It's interesting that you draw this conclusion, John.

I've opined for several years now that Ruby Ridge and Waco were "lessons" for the sheeple.

I've heard unsolicited remarks from several people in the last few years that would seem to indicated that the lessons have had thier intended effect.

Guess I never was a very good student.

Here's to certain lesson being forgotten - Ruby Ridge, Waco, Seattle.

And to other lessons being *well* remembered - Declaration of Independance, Constitution, Federalist Papers, etc.

-Greybear

-- Got Principles?

-- Greybear (greybear@home.com), December 03, 1999.


---agent provacateurs are a time honored tactic of the "dark forces" in tgovernment. every alphabet soup agency and dot mil has used them in the past, over and over again, as well as various local LEO orgs. Most of those folks are decent, but it doesn't take too many globalist "leaders" in those orgs to really create havoc with strange "orders".

zoggus

-- zog (zzoggy@yahoo.com), December 03, 1999.


Loved the network news Wed. night--"people everywhere are wondering, why didn't the police move in sooner?" I wasn't wondering that, but I'm sure a lot of people WERE wondering...what country is this? Didn't anybody see Star Wars? Weren't the storm-troopers the BAD guys? Did I miss something?

-- Spidey (free@last.Amen), December 03, 1999.


"Callin' it your job don't make it right, Boss."
Cool Hand Luke

"We are the Borg. Resistance is futile."
Star Trek

"I'm mad as hell, and I won't take it anymore!"
Network

"the American people shouldn't fear the potential
of seeing U.S. military forces on the streets of
U.S. cities"
William Cohen

-- spider (spider0@usa.net), December 03, 1999.


Hey Dennis,

Love the patriotism, and your stand for freedom, but you are mistaken about the American Citizenry rising up to thwart an obvious blitzkrieg on our Constitutional rights. The American citizen has been effectively neutered through 35+ years of liberal brainwashing and by pursuits of materialisms and blind trusts in man and technology. Many average Joes I know think that those who hold the same ideologies as the Founders, are dangerous nutcases.

We are now ignorant of our history, our foundations and WHY we have become the greatest superpower of prosperity the world has ever known.

One thing Seattle showed was that a massive group CAN be kowtowed by a show of force and small examples of brutality...it creates a climate of fear. There was very little resistance to the stormtrooper tactics I saw on the tube and listened to on the radio. Where was the resistance from the "overwhelming force" when the troops crushed the demonstrators? Where was the "overwhelming force" when farmers out West had their ranches siezed?, when many were thrown out of their homes and forbidden to do business when Clinton stole that land in Utah?, how about when he did the same at the Escalante Staircase?, where was the outrage at Ruby Ridge?, at Waco? What about Kosovo and our illegal actions there? How about the recent article about the Sherburne's?

All of these examples and countless others should have enraged the citizenry, but instead it only simmers within small and separate groups that are demonized daily as nutballs, and as a result mistrust other groups and war amongst themselves for media approval.

No Dennis, the ones who you say make up this "overwhelming force", have been shamed into silence. They may be arming to protect only their own interests in the event of anarchy. But a single, undivided "force" to stop the increasing nazi-like brutality that is fostered on us from government, is non-existant. We are divided. We will be conquered.

Because most today think this government is the greatest thing since sliced bread, and they wrongly believe that prosperity is derrived FROM this government.

We have not known hardship in this nation since the '30's....and we are a far cry in character of men, than that generation was.

No sir, when push comes to shove, with the exception of a few, most will willingly bow to the boot on the face in order to have a meal, than be willing to die in defense of liberty.

-- INVAR (gundark@sw.net), December 03, 1999.


INVAR I agree with you, mostly. Let's make some educated guesses. Of the approximately 70 million KNOWN gun owners, lets say only 25% feel strongly about keeping their rights intact. Of that 25% let's say only 10% of them are willing to stand up and take action instead of licking some hobnails.

That still leaves 3.75 MILLION people who would be willing to fight and possibly die for the constitution and what it represents. I don't know for sure, but I'd be willing to guess there were far fewer French Resistance during WWII or VietCong in 1965.

-- Powder (powder@keg.com), December 03, 1999.


Yes Powder, but that's just statistical number crunching.

You're leaving out the necessary ideology and the cohesive WILL of 3.75 million gun owners that may be willing to stand for freedom. They need to be of ONE mind and purpose...and we do not have that.

Where are they located? Do they have contact and structure with others of like minds? Are they aware of what's happening? Do they have a plan? What about logistics? Supply lines? Goals?

Sorry, but we are all divided amongst ourselves. We are small islands of discontent.

But I guarantee you, whatever cohesion there is among 3.75 million to stand together against oppression, will be quickly crushed. Once small groups are demouguoged and crushed violently, and scapegoated for the sufferings of millions, what little will is left will quickly disband.

Just look at how they demonized smokers and Tobacco Companies in such a short time.

This isn't even covering whatever agent provocateurs, infiltrators and covert ops are used to create atmospheres of mistrust, betrayal and division among groups that may be suspected of resisting whatever Draconian measures are deemed necessary by the State. As a matter-of- fact, this is happening already.

Like we saw in Seattle, once several of these "cells" are hit and destroyed very publicly, the rest will turn and run towards inward defense.

Like I said, we have already been divided....soon we will be conquered in all manners.

Our spirit is already stained and weak thanks to the criminal at 1600 Pennssylvania, and a co-opted Congress.

It is over before it even begins....mark these words.

-- INVAR (gundark@sw.net), December 03, 1999.


It's also a test of the piglets (troops and police) willingness to follow the orders of the big pigs (TPTB) and stomp on their fellow citizens.

-- A (A@AisA.com), December 03, 1999.


John said;"ANY RESISTANCE AT Y2K WILL BE FUTILE AS IT WILL BE MET WITH OVERWHELMING FORCE"...I say that kind of power resides with the people.It's the people's choice whether to walk quietly to the gas chamber or put the bastards up against the wall.With 250,000,000 guns in the hands of private citizens the only thing that should be futile is an attempt to enforce martial law.All too many,however will give up that strength for the illusion of making the children safer.Buy a gun now while there's still time.You too,Diane.

-- zoobie (zoobiezoob@yahoo.com), December 03, 1999.

Unfortunatly,all too many in our oversoft society see themselves as having nothing worth dying for.They'll know it when it's gone.

-- zoobie (zoobiezoob@yahoo.com), December 03, 1999.

I hate to hear a defeatest attitude before a fight is even joined. You don't deserve liberty if you are not willing to fight, and if necessary, even die for it.

There are many still around who believe this land is worth fighting for, and are STILL willing to die for what our country used to be - and could be again. A few old WW2 vets, more Korean vets, lots of Nam vets - some of the toughest dudes this country has ever spawned. Believe me, they are armed and a force to be reckoned with - regardless of the numbers. We learned a lot in Nam about a guerilla war - ambushes, punji sticks, booby traps and all, as any enemy of our constitution (foreigh or domestic) may find out the hard way.

I would rather have an old Nam fire team who did recon cover my sorry butt, than I would a whole company of what we now call our army. Get those that have already put their lives on the line for this country mad enough and it's a brand a new ball game. Some old broken-down vet coming on like Paul Revere is all the spark that many would need.

-- ww2 vet (still on@fire.com), December 03, 1999.


Dear WW2 Vet,

Thank YOU sir, for your service to this great nation. I am unworthy of such honor as it is you and those brave men in arms that have won and preserved our liberty. All I can offer is my deep indebtedness and gratitude, and the knowledge that there are those of us who do remember you, our true history and your incredible sacrifices.

Sadly, I wish this generation currently existing in our nation had a mere FRACTION of the character from your generation.

We might have had a fighting chance.

I know you hate to hear what appears to be a defeatist attitude, and I am one who WILL go out in defense of liberty, even if it means my life and family, but I'm addressing the aggregious laziness, sloth and complacency in our nation today. The allowing of our national character to be slimed with filth and petty bickerings about who should get what and from whom it is owed. The emasculation of our military, and the social experimentation that has gutted it's soul...paving the way for nothing but brainwashed morons who would crush liberty in defense of preserving the power of others because they know not the oath to the Constitution they vowed.

I am addressing the fact that while there are those of us willing to stand for liberty, we are succumbing to incrementalism. Not an all- at-once assault that I am sure would spark an immediate rush-to-arms in defense of freedom, but a slow and accomodating erosion of our liberties. A devious and subtle demonization of our founding ideologies and of those that still hold them. The embrace of materialism and wealth over freedom and liberty, and the acceptance of the lie that prosperity comes from those that limit and erode your freedoms. The rush and acceptance of a Nanny-state as opposed to our rugged individualistic roots. We have traded a represenative republic for a pure Democracy controlled by the major media, and we have neglected our common- sensibilities to embrace a foreign ideology at the hand of a charismatic politician.

As you said, this nation is no longer what it used to be, nor what it used to stand for.

We are under assault, and our Constitution is used for toilet paper.

Today, I see this "incrementalism" assailing any possible formation of organized resistance to what appears to be the fate duped Americans want. We are simply reaping what we have collectively sown. Seattle is just a continuation of the things we saw at Ruby Ridge and Waco.

It is not defeatism to assess and review the situation, and apply it to tactical scenario, and speculate as to the situations that may be faced. And in that assesment, I see no way to unite and rise above the tyranny about to be unleashed upon us. Becuase too many WANT it, and would rather believe a lie in order to "feel good", than face up to the personal responsibility of maintaining their freedom. 3.75 million patriotic gun-owners like yourself scattered about an entire continent, divided among political, religious, race and class lines, having some of those groups demonized to the point of warring amongst themselves...give me very little hope we would stand against what is facing us.

Some take confort in the knowledge that there are millions of guns in the hands of the people. And that is all they put their faith in. Many more millions have the right to vote...but do they exercize that right and maintain vigil on our liberty in the process? NO. So what makes folk think that just because there are millions of guns out there, the government wouldn't dare impose restrictions on liberty? They've been doing it for decades, and the people LOVE IT. Gun owners are as divided and clueless as to WHY we have the right to bear arms, as the rest of the population. They are not of one mind and purpose. Neither are the militias. THIS is why I say we don't stand a chance...even before the fight is joined, because politically IT HAS been joined...and look what's happened. You got Republicans running around sounding like Democrats and Democrats trying to sound like Lenin, and confusion ands chaos abounds....all the while ANOTHER force is taking control.

You may have folks in your circle that give you hope should the arm of tyranny arise. In the larger picture over the last decade, I've wondered when theat voices would arise to denounce the tyranny I see so prevalent in our nation today.

There were none. Which is why I say to those of you so shocked at what happened in Seattle: Don't be so surprised. You only have YOURSELVES to blame for allowing the incremental build-up of our "peace-officers" into paramilitary stormtroopers. Everyone turned a blind-eye at Ruby Ridge and Waco and said: "Good, those nutballs get what they deserve". "Whacky tinfoils NEED to be cracked-down on".

Guess who the "nutballs" are today in Seattle? Becuase no one stood- up to correct an assault on freedom, we will now have MANY such Wacos. Itr will even cross ideological grounds...as in Seattle. All because the American people believe a Liar in the White House, and his political machine, there are many today who will gladly avert the eyes of guardianship in order to feel secure.

The few of us like yourself sir, who may stand up and say "No More!", will surely be eliminated quickly through various means both political, monetarily and even by force. I see too many complacent people, ceding their liberty to others for their security to assess diferently.

But do know sir, there are those like myself, who never fought in battle, nor spilled blood to ensure your right to speak, worship and assemble, who have no clue as to how they will really react "under fire", but who are prepared and willing to die - just as you were, to preseve liberty for our people. I pray for strength and steadfastness.

I just think that due to the current situation, and the tools that have been employed - it will be a valiant stand....but we ourselves are too divided and scattered to make a real difference.

This people are going to reap the rewards of all that has been sown due to their negligence and indifference.

You and I alone cannot carry the weight, and that's what it is amounting to.

-- INVAR (gundark@sw.net), December 03, 1999.


"When Hilter came for the Jews... I was not a Jew, therefore, I was not concerned. And when Hitler attacked the Catholics, I was not a Catholic and therefore, I was not concerned. And when Hilter attacked the unions and the industrialists, I was not a member of the union and I was not concerned. Then Hilter attacked me and the Protestant church. And there was nobady left to be concerned."

-Pastor Martin Niemoller, Congressional Record, 10/14/68. vol. 114, p31636

-- SilentRunnig (CanYouHearMe@Calling.You), December 03, 1999.


"Thank God, They're only taking our neighbors. I told them not to be so loud about voicing their opinion"

-Silent Running "The Journal Of A Fool" 04/05/2000 page 113

-- SilentRunnig (CanYouHearMe@Calling.You), December 03, 1999.


" ... the world's great civilizations averaged a cycle of 200 years. Those societies progressed through this sequence:

From bondage to spiritual faith.
From spiritual faith to great courage.
From great courage to liberty.
From liberty to abundance.
From abundance to selfishness.
From selfishness to complacency.
From complacency to apathy.
From apathy to dependency.
From dependency back again into bondage.

As the United States has passed its 200th birthday, and in view of the recent epidemic of immorality, I wonder how your readers would assess America's current position."

-- William W. Quinn, Lt. Gen., U.S. Army (retired)
------------

-- Ashton & Leska in Cascadia (allaha@earthlink.net), December 03, 1999.


I was taking to my mother the other day about her generation, the people who grew up during the depression, how they seemed to be a different breed of people than most Americans. Later on in the day I realized that the Great Depression and WW2 simply weeded out those people of weak will and loose character.

It's not hard to imagine that during tough economic times, especially wartimes that those people who are weakest get eliminated and everybody else gets toughened up.

I would feel a lot better about Y2K if the present crop of Americans weren't so soft. If we survive this thing no doubt the weakest will get eliminated, perhaps the Nanny Government mindset will too.

Here is an example of tough, my father could reach into an oven and no matter how hot something was just calmly reach in and take it out. I remember once my mother had finished baking something and she asked me to take it out. I tried and I couldn't, I told her it was just too hot. My father said " I'll get it ". He just reaches right in, grabs it and sets it on the oven. I just had a look of amazement that he could do that. The look he had given me though I would rather not comment on.

-- Stanley Lucas (StanleyLucas@WebTv.net), December 03, 1999.


What if there were no TV cameras? No www.drudgereport.com? No www.indymedia.org? No radio reports? No newspapers or magazines? No way to get video tapes out of the city?

I'm sure the police and national guard would have been just as nice as we saw them. Right?

THAT will be the difference between what we have just seen and a 7+ on the Y2K scale.

-- Y2KGardener (govegan@aloha.net), December 03, 1999.

If there's anything that I'm glad about from the WTO affair, it's that TPTB screwed up and missed their opportunity to go one step further. I'll put it this way:

"What would have happened if some of the "protesters" had introduced firearms into the equation?"

Wanna bet that right now we would be seeing the start of that often predicted national gun confiscation campaign? And do the TPTB have anymore ready-made opportunities for such an event to occur between now and next March? (March being about the time the whole shebang hits the ground after starting to fall 01/01/00.)

WW

-- Wildweasel (vtmldm@epix.net), December 04, 1999.


John,

Good job on twisting the "facts" to suit your cause.

What can explain police spraying and detaining protesters while ignoring masked and hooded people smashing windows only 10-15 feet away?The police were at the convention center, the masked and hooded peopole were on third ave, between Pine and Pike street. They were not feet away, they were5 blocks away and definatly out of sight.

Why are what appear to be nothing but pedestrians and even residents of the area being gassed? How do you identify pedestrians? There were protesters, the people who would normally be there stayed away. How do you recognise what "appear to be "residents"? Nobody lives where the police and protesters were over by the convention center. Why are babies and a 70 year old women being gassed and so many hit? What babies? If there were any babies there then the parents should be brought up on charges, the marches and protests went to classes in preperation to teach them how to get arrested and break the law to achieve this goal. If there were any 70 year old women there getting gassed then it is their own fault, the protesters were warned over and over about what would happen if they did not get out of the street, there is no reason for any "innocent" bystanders to have been caught in the line of fire, unless they chose to be.

Why do I see a policeman with his boot on the face of an individual laying motionless on his stomach? Okay why do you see that? I have not seen any picures of a policeman with his boot on anyones face, you are exagerating and just making up scenerios. You are showing that what you say lacks credibility.

But that does not stop so many from jumping in and replying to your post praising your words and agreeing with you. Mob mentality, or more like a bunch of insecure adulescents who agree just to feel like they belong.

-- Cherri (sams@brigadoon.com), December 05, 1999.


Sorry, I saw everything I mentioned on CNN and CTV news (Cdn) ... I twisted nothing and I am too old to bother lying ... I couldn't care less whether you believe it or not, that's your business ... Have a nice evening.

-- John (jh@NotReal.ca), December 05, 1999.

Cherri,

Please check out the photos and testimonies on www.indymedia.org. There you will find all that John has referred to and more. I have had good friends at the scene, one septagenarian, one concerned professor of economics and others who represent our common dismay at the drastic erosion of democratic accountability of such organizations as the WTO, IMF, World Bank, Nato, etc. They are non-violent protes- tors engaging in civil disobedience because our elected representa- tives are beholden to the corporate promoters of those agencies far more than to the citizens who voted them into office; the major news media are part of the same system and cannot be relied on for unbias- ed news. The protests have succeeded for the first time in bringing awareness of some of the issues to a broader audience. This is in the best tradition of our founders, who were, after all, protesting against the corporate injustice of the British East India Company. That's what the Boston Tea Party was about. I am very proud of my friends for upholding our traditions and saddened by the brutal re- sponse of the police and troopers. Please do keep an open mind and please also explore more of the independent media across the politi- cal spectrum; you may be amazed at the extent of agreement on key issues, including those involving s0-called "free trade".

Very sincerely, Don

-- don (don@nothere.mi), December 05, 1999.


Cherri, I guess the Doc must have seen as patient's some of the people that I didn't see on TV!

"There were children present, there were families present, they were firing upon families, mothers, grandmothers. They were just firing at them."

Link

-- John (jh@NotReal.ca), December 05, 1999.


From: Y2K, ` la Carte by Dancr (pic), near Monterey, California

Cherri quotes John and then comments on that quote: "...a policeman with his boot on the face of an individual laying motionless on his stomach?" Okay why do you see that? I have not seen any picures of a policeman with his boot on anyones face, you are exagerating and just making up scenerios. You are showing that what you say lacks credibility.

So, then, Cherri, are you saying that if that had happened, then that obviously would have been outrageous? Do you think it couldn't have happened because it would be just too far outside decent behavior on the part of those cops? Do you think that you saw everything that happened during those several hours inside the entire area that they're now declaring to be in a state of emergency? Do you think that just because you haven't seen a particular film showing some incident, that it therefore never happened?

I also saw that incident on film, and reported on it the day before this thread started.

I have to wonder if this same "see no evil" attitude is behind your insistance that there aren't any Y2K problems worth getting too worried about.

-- Dancr (addy.available@my.webpage), December 06, 1999.


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