This Chemtrails thing is starting to get to me. Is this paranoia or is there something substantive to this?

I guess I'll start going around looking up at the sky!

-- JoseMiami (caris@prodigy.net), December 01, 1999

Answers

of course there is something to it,it has been seen and documented for quite awhile now.

All part of the control of America,interesting how the incidence are increasing no?....

-- pop (poppy@poppin.fresh), December 01, 1999.

Jose:

It sounds to me like you've pre-judged the phenomena as paranoia. If not, try reading a long article at:

http://home.att.net/~lalrm/CT01.html

-- (Kurt.Borzel@gems8.gov.bc.ca), December 01, 1999.

Sorry Jose!

I screwed up the link...

try http://home.att.net/~malrm/CT01.html

-- (Kurt.Borzel@gems8.gov.bc.ca), December 01, 1999.

Sorry Kurt, I don't mean to sound demeaning, but it really stretches my credibility (which has already been stretched lately). I don't mean to dismiss it, and I will read the link you provided. Obviously, there are a lot of people writing in to post from many different parts of the continent. It just.....bogles the mind! I don't know what to think.

-- JoseMiami (caris@prodigy.net), December 01, 1999.

Pop,

Well, they may be increasing, because, uh, it's getting colder right now. You see, CONtrails are more common at colder temperatures.

Personally, I'm still undecided about CHEMtrails, but lean toward the skeptical side. (Skeptical as in, don't believe they exist).

Jolly skylarks, too.

-- Jollyprez (jolly@prez.com), December 01, 1999.

Hey Kurt, I tried the link you gave me and it led me to a ATT personal page that said the "content was blocked." "Not available at this time." Whaz up?

-- JoseMiami (caris@prodigy.net), December 01, 1999.

Last week I saw lots of trails in the sky over the southside of Indianapolis, IN. I figured it was just the result of busy air traffic for the Holiday. Also, I work in a relatively large hospital here and this weekend and still today the ER and our offices in the medical arts building have been getting lots of flu symptom cases. Most, even myself, simply concede that it's that time of year and something is "going around". I still am of the opinion that it's just a coincidence. But when I went to a site mentioned on a previous thread I was a little dumbfounded. The pictures at this site (http://strangehaze.freeservers.com/index.html) looked IDENTICAL to the ones I saw. I did wonder why the trails I saw were criss- crossed, I thought planes flew the same patterns one after another, maybe they don't; anyone in aviation here that can tell me?

I'm not sure I'm ready to buy into the chemtrail thing yet but I will definitely not tune it out anymore, I'm willing to listen and see both sides now. Any more info would be great.

-- Jack (mercer@usa.net), December 01, 1999.

Jose:

I dunno, did you try the second link (the one I didn't mess up)?

Failing that, I couldn't say--I'm a computer user, not an expert by any stretch...

Maybe try talking to Ashton and Leska in Cascadia, they're good folks who could steer you.

-- (Kurt.Borzel@gems8.gov.bc.ca), December 01, 1999.

Thanks, Jack. I will try to keep an open mind.

I have several friends on the South side of Indy. One is the pastor of the Indianapolis Vineyard Christian Fellowship. Another, sold their house and moved about 60 miles southeast of Indy to be safe. Nice people.

Blessings to you.

Jose

-- JoseMiami (caris@prodigy.net), December 01, 1999.

The "chemtrails" thing is purely paranoia. I'm not a "polly" as they would say by any means. Believe me, the vapor trails have been there since WWII because of the higher altitude flying capability of aircraft. At certain times of the year the trails are even more exaggerated because of moisture conditions in the atmosphere combined with the upper atmospheric temperature. Heat makes the water vapor condense thus forming a cloud. In addition, it doesn't have to be an upper atmospheric anomaly. If the conditions are right at lower altitudes, such as happens in late fall and winter, it can happen at much lower altitudes. Also, since the advent of some of the newer fuels, such as JP-8, there is a residue which is deposited in greater amounts (just like car exhaust) which contributes to this phenomenon. I like a little adrenalin rush myself, but don't let these fantasies worry you. "Chemtrails" are simply vapor trails that are completely normal, especially for this time of year. If you see them in the dead of summer in concentrated amounts like as this time of year, maybe then you should consider something other than condensation.

-- Rob (maxovrdrv51@hotmail.com), December 02, 1999.

I agree with Rob 100%. In addition to fuel chemistry changes, our atmosphere has changed. Add that to the fact that everyone with more than $500,000 seems to have a jet, it adds up to a lot of flying, hence a lot of Contrails.

The final proof is this. (Learned from an editorial in Analog Science Fiction/Fact)

YOU CAN NOT HAVE A CHEMICAL/BIOLOGICAL WEAPON (AND USE IT) **UNTIL** YOU HAVE DEVELOPED AND DEPLOYED AN IMMUNIZING AGENT FOR YOUR OWN TROOPS.

If I knew that the police, national guard, power and water techs, doctors, Federal agents, politicians and bureaucrats were getting shots, then I would worry.

The fact that more people are sick is the result of several things.

1. poor quality people. we are not as tough as our ancestors.

2. over use of antibiotics leading to resistant germs.

3. poor nutrition. Add the number of people who eat a healthy diet to the number of people who take artificial supplements, I bet it still comes to under 20% of the population.

4. bad environment, the "sick building" syndrome. Not counting "outgassing" of chemicals from modern building materials, over 75% of the air you breath in a modern building has been going around and around and around in that building since the day it was built. You can't refresh a building if you can't open the windows.

5.bad child rearing. In the old days when men worked outside and women kept house, sick children stayed home. Today with both parents working, the kid that should have stayed home goes to school or day care and throws germs all over the place.

6. immigration, we are getting hit with germs from overseas which our bodies have no immunity too.

-- TSC (ftm@DLGN-25.MIL), December 02, 1999.

Refute all you want. But certain facts remains -- we had the warmest month since records have been kept for the month of November, back to 1895. Lived here for over 15 years and w/much cooler winters have not experienced this type of scenario w/the trails. Airport has changed the altitude flying levels of the major airlines, Southwest, AM West, etc flying into the city, seen with own eyes -- now tell me why while this has been going on. They are at an incredibly low altitude.

Illnesses -- there's so much strep throat out there it's incredible. Flu is being contracted by people that have had the influenza immunization. Otitis media (ear infections) are not just going away after a couple of different antibiotics. Have documented two children who have been diagnosed with both pneumonia and Valley Fever, such pleasant illnesses to have at the same time. Now, we have a meningitis vaccination available -- didn't know we had a meningitis outbreak.

Sorry, getting a little tired of being played for a dummy. I know what I see, what I hear and what my gut tells me. Something's just not quite right.

-- claurann (claurann@aol.com), December 02, 1999.

claurann, I've watched too much death from Valley Fever. Grew up in Tucson, in a paradise in the foothills. Unfortunately it turned out to be a highly concentrated area of the spore. We had collies and most of them died of Valley Fever. My Samoyed died of it after I brought her up to Cascadia (several years of good life though because she was on Nizoral Kitaconozal). I have lung scars from it, some bone scars too. Watched elderly snowbirds succumb to it and die of Valley induced pneumonia. Nasty stuff.

-- Leska (allaha@earthlink.net), December 02, 1999.

Rob and TSC, you guys are in denial and trying to manufacture any BS explanations you can come up with. Real contrails are formed by ice crystals which only happen over 30,000 feet. The ones we're talking about are much lower and are not ice crystals. I did see them many times this summer when the temperature was over 90 degrees. They were low and hung around all day, casting a filmy haze over a previously sunny day. When you see the real thing, you'll know that they are not normal, until then you just won't get it.

-- Hawk (flyin@high.again), December 02, 1999.

Thanks Leska -- there's so many good people out there, people that care.

-- claurann (claurann@aol.com), December 02, 1999.

Claurann,

The reason those aircraft are low is because they are on their final approach --no altitudes have changed-they are simply flying a normal glideslope approach to the runway. The contrails are in jet routes and the reason they seem to be in lines is because one contrail gets laid down then is moved by dynamic air. The next jet using the same route comes along and lays the next contrail down. If an entity were to want to apply something on a population I don't think they would do it from 30,000+ feet. It would seem much simpler to apply it on a pupulation via water supply or at much lower altitudes as a contrail at 30,000 feet can drift for 200-300 miles before completely dissipating. My background: Flying for 13 years with over 2000 hours in turbine aircraft.

-- av8r (av8r@aol.com), December 02, 1999.

Av8r: Please, do not inject facts into this thread. Its much more fun reading the fantastical responses from the parinoid.

-- Freethinkr (ima@nut.com), December 02, 1999.

I really must need a pair of glasses. When the trails are not being made, the big jets are at a distance in the sky that I cannot make out who the airline is -- then when the trails are being made I can tell you exactly which airline the jet is representing. This altitude difference can be from one day to the next, and better than that this change in altitude is not something that has occurred in the last couple of years since living here but for the recent times of the trails being in the southern sky. Your years of experience and technology is appreciated but I can assure you there is a dramatic difference in altitude and is specifically tied to when the trails are occurring elsewhere in the sky. Agree that chems from that distance should have little effect, but I have no direct knowledge that that could not be the case.

-- claurann (claurann@aol.com), December 02, 1999.

Free, Paranoia is an adult response to reality, according to the CIA, so are you saying that you are not an adult? :)

-- Crono (Crono@timesend.com), December 02, 1999.

From: Y2K, ` la Carte by Dancr (pic), near Monterey, California

"TSC" AKA "ME" is blaming the victims on several chemtrails and NBC threads, today.

-- Dancr (addy.available@my.webpage), December 02, 1999.

We thought chemtrails were marginally Off Topic until we were right under them. Funny how being sprayed changes one's priorities and perceptions. As Y2K approaches the spraying appears to be accelerating. *** SOMEBODY *** up there thinks there is a correlation! And that somebody does not have divine benevolence!

Don't know what it is -- had some inspiration which we posted -- but don't KNOW. But have seen it; it is real, unfortunately.

CDC

And look, in Seattle, what are they using to subdue and disperse crowds, huh?

CHEMICALS

-- Ashton & Leska in Cascadia (allaha@earthlink.net), December 02, 1999.

Fantasy: The "spray" you see overhead is falling so fast that it is dropping all around you, infecting you with some uncurable flu-like symptom.

Reality:

Jet at 30,000 feet (+-)

Wind speed at 30,000 feet (?)

Rate at which aresol spray falls through atmosphere (?)

Actual chemical testing of "spray residue"

"flu-like symptoms" and correlation to actual "flu-season", i.e., all these silly posts come out in the WINTER. Where were you all year?

Start posting some facts, and I'll start listening.

-- Freethinkr (ima@nut.om), December 02, 1999.

Sorry - been looking at contrails for 40+ years, and photo's of them since they were used to hide fighters in WWII.

These patterns AREN'T usual contrails from "usual" traffice, now, I'll grant that "they" might/might not be releasing chemical agents from the planes flying in these criss-cross patterns; since I've personally seen no chemicals getting dumped.

The aircraft are too high/too far away to see details.....but the patterns are real, are regular, repeated crossing patterns - directly OVER the regular landing patterns at Hartsfield (and other airports - such as Dobbins AFB, PDK, Warenr-Robins AFB, etc.)

They "might" be doing air traffic control "radar" calibration patterns, but that doesn't make sense sine you DON'T need dozens of rectangular patterns to "test" whether "new" radars return an echo.....only two in each direction.

Further, the rectangular patterns DO NOT "curve" between the ends of the tic-tac-toe pattern...(most of the time, one photo does show "racetrack" curves at each end.) The contrails DO regularly start at stop at prescribed, specific points - as if whatever fluid is being released causes the contrail, rather than just the water regularly condensing from engines/wings passing through cold air at low pressure.....

---

Okay - now you convince me - technically - that whatever I've seen doesn't exist. I don't particulalry care whether you've seen them or not - that is irrelevent.

Or can otherwise be explained using physics and normal air traffic patterns.....

-- Robert A. Cook, PE (Marietta, GA) (cook.r@csaatl.com), December 02, 1999.

From: Y2K, ` la Carte by Dancr (pic), near Monterey, California My Chemtrails Page

"flu-like symptoms" and correlation to actual "flu-season", i.e., all these silly posts come out in the WINTER. Where were you all year?

I don't think it's necessarily true that the evidence shows that the incidence of spraying is accelerating. It could be that it passes unnoticed until it is first "really seen," and then only seems to be on the increase, since it's seen all over once it is recognized. It's like learning a new word. It seems like you never heard it before, and then when you learn it, it crops up everywhere.

The increased incidence on the forum this week could be merely that Ashton & Leska's post caused more people to look up into the sky. These longtime forum regulars carry a lot of credibility with most of the people who tend to post here. Rather than attributing to them the power of provoking a mass halucination, I tend to believe that there is a critical mass of evidence required before someone can look to the heavens for answers. In my case, perhaps it was having a critically ill son.

My son's illness began in early May (search on the string "dancr" on that thread), peaking the entire week of May 9th, 1999. There were many other people here locally who also were sick from this at that time, to the point of jamming local hospitals in Salinas and San Jose, and prompting the local TV News and newspapers to comment upon it as a mysterious pertusis like illness.

-- Dancr (addy.available@my.webpage), December 02, 1999.

Jolly, you are right about colder temps being needed to maintain a long lasting contrail, but we are talking about chemtrails that are proliferating at lower altitudes where normal contrails are dissipating at even higher altitudes. So what, you ask? Well, those higher altitudes must be a minus 50 degrees celsius in order to 'maintain' a normal contrail. Get it?

Spring, summer, fall, winter. It doesn't matter because what is being laid at the lower altitudes is not heat or cold sensitive, thus is not a normal ice crystalization in progress.

-- C Deitchman (cdeitchman@bigfoot.com), December 02, 1999.

There have been plenty of chemtrail threads on this Forum every month. Winter, Spring, Summer, Fall. We didn't read most of them -- didn't "get it." Our apologies to all those who were posting all this time. It's a "You have to see it to believe it" type of situation.

Don't have time to search the archives now -- can't even keep up with all the new threads/posts. Y2K related news is accelerating drastically!

We remember one thread last year, may have been started by Michael Taylor, think we may have posted something from Infomagic's site about a Hopi prophecy re spinning cobwebs in the sky, memory not real sharp tonight ...

-- Ashton & Leska in Cascadia (allaha@earthlink.net), December 02, 1999.

ROB says:

"In addition, it doesn't have to be an upper atmospheric anomaly. If the conditions are right at lower altitudes, such as happens in late fall and winter, it can happen at much lower altitudes."

This has already be refuted. One has to have the following to create the right conditions for a contrail to maintain.

minus 50 degrees celcius

high humidity

no vertical wind movement whatsoever

It is highly unlikely that normal contrails dissipating at a higher altitude will be laid in conjunction with lower non-dissipating trails at the same time. It is possible under very RARE CIRCUMSTANCES. What is being reported is rather common occurences of both higher dissipating chemtrails in addition to lower maintained chemtrails, in addition to these occurences happening at ALL TIMES of the year. SPRING SUMMER WINTER FALL all over the U.S. This is simply not going to happen on anything more than a very RARE occurence. "Also, since the advent of some of the newer fuels, such as JP-8, there is a residue which is deposited in greater amounts (just like car exhaust) which contributes to this phenomenon."

Rob, how does it contribute to the phenomenon...please cite your scientific proof.

TCS, another poster writes:

"I agree with Rob 100%. In addition to fuel chemistry changes, our atmosphere has changed. Add that to the fact that everyone with more than $500,000 seems to have a jet, it adds up to a lot of flying, hence a lot of Contrails"

Nonsense. Your theory does not stand up in several ways.

"The final proof is this. (Learned from an editorial in Analog Science Fiction/Fact) YOU CAN NOT HAVE A CHEMICAL/BIOLOGICAL WEAPON (AND USE IT) **UNTIL** YOU HAVE DEVELOPED AND DEPLOYED AN IMMUNIZING AGENT FOR YOUR OWN TROOPS. If I knew that the police, national guard, power and water techs, doctors, Federal agents, politicians and bureaucrats were getting shots, then I would worry. The fact that more people are sick is the result of several things.

1. poor quality people. we are not as tough as our ancestors.

(in the last 3 years, our genome pool has deteriorated that badly, ey?)

2. over use of antibiotics leading to resistant germs.

(agreed, but quite frankly, you are not showing where the real culprit is coming from, therefore your argument is extremely weak)

3. poor nutrition. Add the number of people who eat a healthy diet to the number of people who take artificial supplements, I bet it still comes to under 20% of the population.

(considering that the vast majority of the illnesses reputed to be contributed to this spraying is an unknown upper respiratory illness that becomes acute within 5 days, then turns into a long lasting chronic illness that takes months to recover from, I sincerly doubt you know what you are talking about)

4. bad environment, the "sick building" syndrome. Not counting "outgassing" of chemicals from modern building materials, over 75% of the air you breath in a modern building has been going around and around and around in that building since the day it was built. You can't refresh a building if you can't open the windows.

(more nonsense not addressing the issue at hand)

5.bad child rearing. In the old days when men worked outside and women kept house, sick children stayed home. Today with both parents working, the kid that should have stayed home goes to school or day care and throws germs all over the place.

(big time nonsense not addressing the issue at hand. You're going to tell us the un-diagnosed upper respiratory illness experienced is due to bad child rearing? Ha! Even if I believe in better family cohesion, this is a total joke.)

6. immigration, we are getting hit with germs from overseas which our bodies have no immunity too. (Oh, brother...ditto, ditto. TSC, you might think you are providing a good perspective. You will think otherwise if you actually do some research.)

-- C Deitchman (cdeitchman@bigfoot.com), December 02, 1999.

From: Y2K, ` la Carte by Dancr (pic), near Monterey, California

C Deitchman has posted this same long comment under various handles on at least four of the recent chemtrail threads, in which he blames the victim for sometimes extreme health difficulties which are apparently due to these chemtrails.

-- Dancr (addy.available@my.webpage), December 03, 1999.

Dancr, I think you may be mixing up posters here. C Deitchman is not blaming the victim at all. Perhaps you mean the poster TCS or ?

-- OR (orwelliator@biosys.net), December 03, 1999.

From: Y2K, ` la Carte by Dancr (pic), near Monterey, California

Thanks for the help, "OR", but no... I got it right. They're probably all the same person. It's the same post in all those places. Blaming the victim in that he's saying these people getting sick wouldn't be if they weren't inferior or making bad choices or abusing themselves or raising their children wrongly.

-- Dancr (addy.available@my.webpage), December 04, 1999.