"NEW TBY2K POLICY: Trolls Will Be Trashed. Keep That In Mind Before Posting. Thanks -- Sysops "

For those new to the forum, the preceding disclaimer is now posted as shown here directly above the area where any new post-er enters their email address when posting a new message. It was placed there in the early morning hours of 991119.

There is an excellent posting at the DeBunker's forum regarding the last day of activity here, and the subsequent reaction.

Patient Regards,
Andy Ray

-- Andy Ray (andyman633@hotmail.com), November 20, 1999

Answers

GET LOST ANDY RAY!

GET LOST ANDY RAY!

GET LOST ANDY RAY!

GET LOST ANDY RAY!

GET LOST ANDY RAY!

Do I really need to do this another 75 times?????

GET LOST ANDY RAY!

...

Tick... Tock... <:00=

-- Sysman (y2kboard@yahoo.com), November 20, 1999.

Andy:

Why would we care what the folks at debonkers think? If we did, we'd be there. Why don't you go back there? Here we don't mind differing opinions. We just don't like smart alecks. And that should apply to both sides of this issue.

-- haha (haha@haha.com), November 20, 1999.

Can it Andy.

There is no sympathy left.

Back off.

-- snooze button (alarmclock_2000@yahoo.com), November 20, 1999.

Well, wait a minute...

Diane posted a link to the same forum earlier today in Goodbye TB2k...should that be deleted as well? Or is this a unilateral policy?

Patient Regards,
Andy Ray

-- Andy Ray (andyman633@hotmail.com), November 20, 1999.

Mr. Ray,

You may want to save your,-- quasi-soap-box my rights have been trammeled-- for the Beginning of Jan.

You would be better served to save your strength for your unprepared neighbors or the NG when they come to visit you.

Believe me everyone here can see thru your parody of a concerned patriot defending freedom of speech.

You insult the founding fathers who gave their lives!!! You mock true courage and patriotism with your childish antics.

I seriously doubt you have the character or backbone to utter words like----"give me liberty or give me Death"--in the face of true danger. All of us know andy ray that it takes zero courage to defend free speech with typing skills. Especially when the free speech you are attempting to save is potentially life threatening. Your disregard for the true spirit de corps that exists on this forum is truly sad and discouraging for the loving people here who just want to relate with something they chose to come hear for. To discuss Y2K You are just looking for attention.

Signed---fellow american

-- db (dciinc@aol.com), November 20, 1999.

Andy:

I hope it is unilateral as hell. Why don't you wander off in search of "Good science" somewhere else.

Or, please, better yet. stay, watch us in our pathetic distortions of reality, our convoluted efforts to maintain our FUD mentality, smile condencendingly, just keep your mouth shut.

I have yet to see you contribute anything, in any of your many posts, that supported, with evidence, ANY side of the issue.

-- mushroom (mushroom_bs_too_long@yahoo.com), November 20, 1999.

"An excellent posting at the DeBunker's forum"--isn't that an oxymoron?

-- (funky@debunker's.forum), November 20, 1999.

TimeBomb 2000 Forum Posting Guidelines:

 Y2K--preparation and related issues--are recommended discussion topics
 We ask that vendors refrain from posting direct information about their products and services
 Challenge posts with facts or reasoned arguments--try to avoid flames
 If you have nothing of Y2K value to say--lurk dont post
 Post using your own name or handle--stealing may result in deletion
 Once 3-5 regular posters request DELETE--pointless threads may be removed
 Refrain from using profane/obscene language--or post will be deleted
 Dont feed the trolls--please
 Delete assessment of TBY2K SYSOP(s)--is final
 This is NOT a forum for continued religious rantings (occasional on-topic discussions are permitted). Posters abusing this guideline will be asked to cease and desist, and/or their ISP provider will be contacted with a complaint notice.

Problems? Help? Notify Moderators or Sysops at:
y2ktimebomb2000@yahoo.com

 And, please categorize your new posts

NEW TBY2K POLICY: Trolls Will Be Trashed. Keep That In Mind Before Posting. Thanks -- Sysops

********************

My suggestion and opinion to newcomers and to dissenting oldtimers refered to as "pollys" by many:

These guidelines are FAIR and REASONABLE. They in NO WAY stop any of us from expressing our opinions on anything related to Y2K, which THIS FORUM IS ALL ABOUT.

Read the guidelines several times carefully. Then PRESENT your opinion within the frame of the guidelines. Which means that you can say that Ed Yourdon (or the sysops or anyone you disagree with) is full of it if you say so in a CIVILIZED manner and present a CIVILIZED argument to back up your claim. For examples of civilized posters who go against the majority on this forum but are not deleted, see the posts from Hoffmeister, Ken Decker, and Flint.

May I remind EVERYONE, wether you are a "polly" or a "doomer" that these guidelines apply to all of us. Preparers and "doomers" who flame "pollys" with vulgar language and name calling should be deleted by the sysops just as much! May I be the first one to be deleted if I am caught braking those guidelines.

These guidelines are called "Netiquette", they are NOT meant to censor anyone, they are meant to keep a forum usable for everyone, when a forum has reached a large population differing in view points and opinions. It takes more mental effort to think up a proper way to express one's opinion within such guidelines as opposed to just shoot-off the hip emotionaly, but to those lazy intellectually who complain, I say, too bad. You have been given the choice, and you have been explained the concequences.

-- Chris (#$%^&@pond.com), November 20, 1999.

Andy Ray,

Do you understand the difference between a troll and a regular poster?

Just curious as to if YOU can distinguish between the two.

Thanks,

Mike

=====================================================================

-- Michael Taylor (mtdesign3@aol.com), November 20, 1999.

AndyRay,

I've read, OVER THERE, about how you are encouraging the posters AND COMPLIMENTING THEM at De Bunker for attacking this Forum.

SERVING NOTICE... LEAVE!

You are no longer welcome here. Period.

Nuf' said.

Diane

-- Diane J. Squire (y2ktimebomb2000@yahoo.com), November 20, 1999.

I disagree with the disruptive multiple posts by YouKnowWho, but I concur with the anger over the mass deletions taking place on this forum. It is no longer relevant to be a prepper. If you disagree with the doomer mentality ya gotta go. I will campaign MIT until Im blue in the face to have them disassociate themselves from this forum. Some of the thoughts brought forth here are reckless and irresponsible and the folks at MIT should look closely at their involvement with some of the loonies posting here. Ya wanna have a doomsday site and foam at the mouth? Great, more power to ya. Build it and run it with your own money and keep normal folks out of the loop. MIT should cull this sick cow out of the herd.

-- Truth (at@the.ready), November 20, 1999.

***Posting to this forum constitutes agreement with the rules*** The most important of these is:

 Delete assessment of TBY2K SYSOP(s)--is final

-- Can (you@read.&understand?), November 20, 1999.

I Talk To The Wind by King Crimson

Said the straight man to the late man
Where have you been?
I've been here and I've been there
And I've been in between.

I talk to the wind My words are all carried away
I talk to the wind
The wind does not here
The wind cannot hear.

I'm on the outside looking inside
What do I see
Much confusion, disillusion
All around me.

You don't posses me
Don't impress me
Just upset my mind
Can't instruct me or conduct me
Just use up my time.

I talk to the wind
My words are all carried away
I talk to the wind
The wind does not hear
The wind cannot hear.

-- songmeister (singin@the.rain), November 20, 1999.

Translation:

It's our ball and we're going home...

-- Y2K Pro (y2kpro@censored.com), November 20, 1999.

I have no desire whatsoever to get rid of this forum. My beef is the selective censorship and the fact that a high quality institution such as MIT is associated with TB2000. This forum should be operated and financed as a private enterprise and then you can decide what stays and what goes. How can one of the finest educational institutions in the world sanction the kind of extremist viewpoints that show-up on this site? Let the administrators at MIT take a close look at what goes on here and decide for themselves.

-- Truth (at@the.ready), November 20, 1999.

http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=0012Td

[snip]

:)

'Tis true, I have posted on other message boards, and under different aliases. Some of the aliases are on your side. ;) Sometimes, one alias argues vehemently with another - that adds credibility to the "doomer" alias, and gets him or her "in."

As I have stated before, 'tis all in the interests of securing information for a post-Y2K book with the working title "ShowDown @ the Y2K Corral: a study in 'cybernoia'." I have also entertained donating proceeds from the profits to Bill Gates, Steve Jobs, Microsoft or Apple. Any preferences?

You have been such wonderful participants in my information mining!

:) Regards, Andy Ray

-- Andy Ray (andyman633@hotmail.com), July 04, 1999.

[snip]



-- Linkmeister (link@librarian.edu), November 20, 1999.

Most of this debate, if not all, revolves around the "proper" handling of pure attack posts -- attacking either specific individuals or perceived viewpoints. There seems to be some debate as to the value or contribution (if any) made by such posts.

This is a really tough call, IMAO (in my arrogant opinion), since it implies *somebody* weighing the merits of each post and deciding whether or not the generic reader (in the view of the moderators) can glean any useful information from the attack itself.

Which in turn depends on the moderators' definition of "useful". It seems to be human nature to see much more merit in attacks against those who disagree with your own opinion, and little if any merit in those posts that attack *you*.

I think that the main problem here is the "you're a jerk" intellectual level too many here can't seem to rise above. (To be more accurate, this is the "your (sic) a jerk" level). The second problem is the difficulty of creating a clear, unambiguous definition of a "troll post". If each individual post (or thread) becomes a judgment call, then we are at the mercy of the orientation of the judges. Best to do nothing, and let the interested readers skip the trash.

-- Flint (flintc@mindspring.com), November 20, 1999.

"Best to do nothing, and let the interested readers skip the trash."

In your dreams Flint.

Sorry, but there is no reason to have to wade through trash or put up with troll dribbles... especially spam attacks. The perpetrator(s) will be dealt with accordingly.

Leave... if you want to be a "litterbug."

Diane, wearing hip boots

-- Diane J. Squire (sacredspaces@yahoo.com), November 20, 1999.

Diane:

It seems from my reading that the real troll explosions come every time a moderator threatens to crack down, and almost no other time. I can't imagine you haven't made this connection. Perhaps it would be more practical to remove the useless posts quietly?

However, I don't think modifying the *content* of a post is ever justified (if in fact it's ever done).

-- Flint (flintc@mindspring.com), November 20, 1999.

Diane,

I often admire the research you put in, and the information you contribute to the debate, but the attitude expressed above to Andy Ray and Flint is simply unreasonable. Andy Ray and Flint have both contributed very civil and thoughtful posts to the forum, and to attack them and suggest they leave, or "serve notice" that they will be kicked off merely because they disagree with you on censorship policy, is unfair. I might suggest that you consider their viewpoints and their opinions to be as valid as yours, and treat them respectfully. Otherwise, you are already bending the rules the sysops have recently instigated to go even farther into censorship.

Honestly, we can think for ourselves. We don't need you or Chuck or anyone else to tell us what is acceptable here. This is a public forum, and ALL civil views short of outright obscenity ought to be encouraged.

-- Celia Thaxter (celiathaxter@yahoo.com), November 20, 1999.

Celia,

You have "never" admired my research and have "trolled" here in the past, upon occasion.

AndyRay LIED about one of the Sysops editing his posts by changing the word "with." I have checked with all the Sysops and no one altered his post.

As usual... he's lying.

We ARE united in deleting the trolls. Live with it or leave.

I refuse to get into a slug-fest with you guys.

AndyRay is welcome to leave... so are you... so is Flint. Behave like adults. Or not.

Though love, children.

That's the way it "is" now.

Diane

-- Diane J. Squire (sacredspaces@yahoo.com), November 20, 1999.

Diane,

I did not lie, my words were edited. I resent the fact that you are accusing me falsely of lying in this matter.

Perhaps it's time for a latte?

Patient Regards,
Andy Ray

-- Andy Ray (andyman633@hotmail.com), November 20, 1999.

...DeBunkies... I hope someone is archiving their posts over there - someday it'll make a wonderful case study for abnormal psychology, theirs.

These are the people that our society should be concerned about, they have NO CLUE as to how to interact PEACEABLY, or work for the common good.

Ever notice how when someone points out that both Doomers, Trolls & Pollies have been effected by the new policy, there's never a Troll response? Ever notice how when you ask a Troll a logical, rational, POLITE question, the question is IGNORED?

The reality is that the Trolls are socially inept, rejected by all of humanity, rightly or wrongly, when they were young. This rejection has warped their perception of life, and their goal has become that of revenge, on all they meet, to "make up" for their earlier suffering. It's a shame, really, making other innocent people suffer won't help heal the Trolls' emotional scars. Hatred's cost is too high to be used as an effective tool.

Attack, distort, and lack of empathy - what a sad, grey, restricted little world they live in.

-- Deb M. (vmcclell@columbus.rr.com), November 20, 1999.

AndyRay,

I am going to trust the given word of my Sysops, over what YOU say.

Ergo... YOU lied.

As you have *many* times in the past. You are also encouraging the trolling action here. That is "evident."

Diane, going shopping AND sipping several lattes!

Harumph!

-- Diane J. Squire (sacredspaces@yahoo.com), November 20, 1999.

Diane:

Celia just said she admired your research. In response, you deny the words in front of your face. Why?

If I or Celia didn't behave like adults on this thread, could you please explain. We'd learn a LOT from such an explanation.

Finally, could you be so kind as to reproduce *any* post where Celia has "trolled"? We'd learn a LOT from that as well. I admit I can't read everything, but every post I've seen from Celia has been thoughtful and articulate in the extreme.

Can't you understand that such assertions, without example or explanation, can make people nervous if they don't share your bias? As a judge who makes assertions either without supporting evidence or in contradiction to immediate and clear evidence, you cast suspicion and dishonor on your position. NOT a good sign.

-- Flint (flintc@mindspring.com), November 20, 1999.

Diane,

Apparently, one of the sysops you asked lied to you about making the edit. I know, and that sysop knows, the truth. Your attitude about this is an inexplicable as any of your (over-) reactions to many of my civil posts.

I have not incited others to disrupt this forum; someone did that in my name, using some rather crude code. I have picked up on the fact that I was impersonated, and have utilised it to my advantage - as I have every other tactic ever presented by any opponent in any debate.

You are in a huff about all this, apparently. I understand. If you calm down, and stop threatening to abuse the authority you have as a sysop, you may realise that you are making potentially costly errors (costly to this forum, that is).

I like it here. I enjoy the give and take, as long as it's done on a level playing field. Edits and similar abuses of authority are unnecessary.

So far as my past behavior is concerned, if you examine it closely you will find that I have merely responded in kind to those who decided to "pick a fight." If they do not know how to handle themselves in a debate, they should take what they get, learn from it, and move forward the better for the exchange. As should you.

Patient Regards,
Andy Ray

-- Andy Ray (andyman633@hotmail.com), November 20, 1999.

Diane,

Like Flint, I think it would serve the forum well if "trolling" or "trolls" were defined.

I have the impression that certain individuals, such as Y2kPro, will be deleted henceforth. I guess he is defined as a "troll." But if that individual's words are deleted, will you also delete posts from people such as "Will Continue"? Will Continue's posts have been uniformly attacking and vicious. Her vile, tasteless language often veers into outright obscenity. I cannot think of a better example of "disruptive." Usually she disappears when Uncle Deedah takes her to task. But Uncle Deedah isn't a sysop.

Will the sysops censor her posts as they have Y2kPro's? Or does "disruptive" only extend one way?

-- Celia Thaxter (celiathaxter@yahoo.com), November 20, 1999.

What a crock! Time to talk to your primary care physician about a referral to a shrink for heavy course in major psychotropic drugs....Start with Mellaril.

Who died and left you boss, Mr. Font? Wow, we're sure impressed with those colored san serifs. Are you 14 or 15?

I suggest we call AndyRay Mr. Font from here on out...Shame the devil as the saying goes....

BS!

-- Donna (moment@pacbell.net), November 20, 1999.

Andy Ray and Celia, I have been on this forum before you came along. Flint has been here as long as me, or longer. All three of you I've had the opportunity to watch carefully. One thing you all have in common is this: You are manipulators. You lie, and you twist meanings.

Diane Squire is honest. Not once have I been able to catch her trying to manipulate or lie. I have disagreed with her many times, but her intentions have been honest.

Freedom of Speech requires honesty and sincerity. The sysops are honest. You guys are not.

If you feel that the majority is against your opinion, it's because the majority have picked up on your lying manipulative behavior. This forum is populated in great majority by intelligent people, who are not easily manipulated.

That one lies civilly and "within the guidelines" does not absolve one from being a "troll" and maliciously disrupting an honest forum of people searching for truth and understanding.

I have said the above for the benefit of those who may be new to this forum, and not have had an opportunity to get to know all the people mentioned above, as I know full well that trying to reason with them is futile and masochistic.

Diane, please do yourself a favor, hold on strong to your confidence and keep doing your job as you've been, and don't bother responding to the Andy Ray's of this forum. You're wasting your valuable time that you could use to better contributions.

-- Chris (#$%^&@pond.com), November 20, 1999.

Chris:

From the perspective of anyone who doesn't agree with you, you are hardly searching for "truth and understanding." Instead, you are searching for ammunition to buttress your preconvictions.

Now, when an intelligent observer who disagrees with you comes along and says "OK, this *might* be construed to support your opinion, but there are many meanings that can be legitimately read into this, and yours is not the most obvious" THEN you say such an observer is manipulating opinion and twisting meanings!

I ask you: If next year the world continues to wobble along without undue disruption, will you *still* believe that those who read (from the information available what actually turned out to happen were twisters and manipulators? Is it even remotely possible you could understand that drawing inferences different from yours can be done honestly?

I don't think Diane is dishonest, and I don't think you are either. Either you are sincerely misguided, or I am. Time will tell. Neither of us has to be dishonest to be wrong, you know.

-- Flint (flintc@mindspring.com), November 20, 1999.

If you polly-trolls don't like the new rules, TOUGH.

Go back to playing over at Debonkers.

You're not wanted here because the only reason you ARE here is to disrupt and cause division and mayhem.

Andy Ray, you are a sick and disgusting LIAR - and we have you pegged for what you are. We don't want a so-called "level playing field" with you asswipes, because it has always been level here. Anyone has had the priveledge of posting their views here, until it became a tool for disruption. You simply do what all Socialist Liberals do, complain about the "unfair playing fields" and demand it be skewed to your favor so you can have a better "advantage".

Well that's bullshit pal. Scram and get lost, or we simply delete you on sight. We've had enough of your "Poole-ishness".

Infant.

-- INVAR (gundark@sw.net), November 20, 1999.

As always, INVAR shines the light of truth on the ever-growing pile of Polly-BS. Diane, the polly/trolls are running scared which means that you're doing GREAT. Keep it up! You know everyone here is with you.

-- (brett@miklos.org), November 20, 1999.

INVAR: "Scram and get lost, or we simply delete you on sight."

[NOTE: I've added the bold to the snip from INVAR's post for emphasis - Bingo1]

I've refrained from jumping in - until I read the above.

Am I to infer INVAR is a sysop???

INVAR has the power to delete/edit posts???

-- Bingo1 (howe9@pop.shentel.net), November 20, 1999.

Dear Invar,

Whenever "liberal socialists" (or any other "flavor" socialists) took over a country (as they did 2/3 or the planet earlier this century), the first thing they did was to institute strict censorship "for the common good." Sound familiar? It should, since this is precisely what you are espousing. So I ask you plainly: Are you a socialist?

I am not. I have heard the promies and endured the results of socialist regimes in my life.

I like what someone stated earlier: They did not agree with what I had to say or how I said it, but they would defend my right to do so. I have met a lot of US citizens who feel that way. To me, they engender the heart for which the US stands. I respect the philosophy, even with those with whom I disagree.

As for me, I will continue to post here. There isn't one thing you can do about it, except to deal with it. I will continue to post using this font and colour - that way you can skip right past my words and not be "tricked" into reading them, if they offend you so. You act as if I am somehow forcing you to read what I compose - this is ludicrous. I do not know nor care about the nature of your issues with my opinions. Rest assured, neither my behaviour nor opinions will be affected one iota by your words.

Patient Regards,
Andy Ray

-- Andy Ray (andyman633@hotmail.com), November 20, 1999.

You're wasting your time trying to engender a debate dude. Wrapping yourself in the Constitution where it doesn't apply is a nice try....but no dice. You can spew your crap freely on your own board or wherever you have the permission to do so. We don't want it here anymore, which is why the deletions. So don't act so surprised your highness when it does happen.

Besides, you are here for the sole purpose of inciting trouble and disruption, I've read your posts at Debonkers. Go back over there and declare "victory" and encourage more virulent attempts at crashing this board like you did yesterday. That is reason enough to ban your scurrilous hide from ever posting here again.

And of course I know my words will have little effect on you when it comes to reason, which is why I salute and encourage the use of the "delete" keys whenever you are posting on this board. This is because reasoning with two-year-old mentalities is fruitless, all you understand is the switch.

So we will turn you off. Simple.

-- INVAR (gundark@sw.net), November 20, 1999.

INVAR: "So we will turn you off. Simple."

Again with the we???

So you are a member of the TB2000 cabal???

Ah...Now I begin to understand the extremism exhibited by TPTB...The pebble under the mattress...Congratulatuions on your success...Though detrimental to the majority...IMHO, of course

-- Bingo1 (howe9@pop.shentel.net), November 20, 1999.

Bingo1:

I rather doubt INVAR has the keys. I suspect his use of the royal 'we' simply reflects his recognition that his opinions match those of our moderators. INVAR is just more straghtforward in expressing those opinions.

-- Flint (flintc@mindspring.com), November 20, 1999.

If you don't like the rules or the policy here, you are free to go and play over at DeBunkies or wherever else you have the privelege to do so.

Plain.

Simple.

To the point.

There should be no questions except for those with no brains, or those who want to fight and cause trouble.

In either case, if you don't abide the rules, you will be wiped from the board.

There. I think that's pretty clear.

-- INVAR (gundark@sw.net), November 20, 1999.

"...royal 'we'..."

LOL Flint. Right on target.

I just received confirmation via private communique that INVAR in fact does not have sysop status. IMO he's merely attempting to ride the coattails of others "of like mind".

Big Sigh!!! LOL!!!

-- Bingo1 (howe9@pop.shentel.net), November 20, 1999.

There were some hard questions here (as elsewhere, posed by "W,") that, as usual, are completely left unanswered by the sysops. The new deletion policy has apparently boiled down to an individual's "judgment call."

Diane accused me of "trolling," but failed to define that or substantiate it. She has simply exited the discussion, even though she is responsible to the forum. The "leader" has worked away from the discourse, has abandoned ship.

Telling those who ask reasonable, civil questions to "leave if you don't like it" is neither civil nor responsible, though uttered by those bearing the standard for "civility." New rules have been given, but how the rules work and how the standard shall be uniformaly applied is left undefined.

-- Celia Thaxter (celiathaxter@yahoo.com), November 21, 1999.

"New to the forum? Year 2000 resources, sites and links for research"

http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=001owa

-- Linkmeister (link@librarian.edu), November 21, 1999.

To Andy Ray and the other DeBunky trolls,

You scream and scream about our sysops deleting your trash (on site I may add) and yet you can't get the very reason why into your limited mentality??

You started this "problem" and took it to a NEW LEVEL on HALLOWEEN DAY as well as this past FRIDAY!! By doing that YOU CHANGED THE RULES!!

Most of us respected your counterview points and took this into the "Big Picture", but after the "wars" that have been going on here recently, I am just FED UP of seeing MY HOME here being messed up by JUVENILE DELINQUENTS whose only purpose is to "disrupt" this board.

YOU AND YOUR FELLOW DEBUNKERS STARTED THIS!! NOW LIVE WITH THE CONSEQUENCES!!

GO AWAY!! STAY AWAY!! YOU CAN'T HAVE YOUR CAKE AND EAT IT TOO!!

If anyone here wants to read about your counterview, they are welcomed to visit your DeBunky site - then they can see how vile and evil you REALLY ARE!

And you wonder why so many of us are PISSED OFF.... DUH!!!

-- Forum Regular (Here@y2k.comx), November 21, 1999.

Invar,

Marxists, and other socialists, are all proponents of silencing those with whom they disagree.

I have not yet mentioned or inferred the Constitution. It is a demonstrated habit of doomers, however, to take a little information, twist it in their psyche's, and shape it into whatever fits their beliefs - which is what has happened here. I was, am, and will continue to speak about individual rights (there are onther nations on the planet besides the US, after all); which were written of in the US, certainly, and incorporated into the Bill of Rights. But that is not their only incarnation in history. These rights were in existence prior to the formation of the US - Thomas Jefferson and others merely recognised and applied their truths - they did not conceive these truths.

There is a whole world of people and ideas out here Invar, learn to live with us.

Patient Regards,
Andy Ray

-- Andy Ray (andyman633@hotmail.com), November 22, 1999.