In the thread Regarding Zero Tolerance and Fascism, I posted the following response to Diane:
"Do the rules apply both ways, or are they being applied only to those who challenge the meme?"

It was edited (and it's meaning reversed) to read:
"Do the rules apply both ways, or are they being applied only to those who challenge with the meme?"

I checked a key-capture log on this workstation prior to emailing a sysop about this, to make certain I had not added the extra wording by accident - I did not type the word "with" where it appears.

Imitation of me is one thing, this type of abuse of power is another altogether, and goes beyond the pale, in my opinion.

Patient Regards,
Andy Ray

-- Andy Ray (andyman633@hotmail.com), November 19, 1999

Answers

Andy,

Man,

Get

A

Life!

Before you lose your mind. 42 days left. None of this free speech BS matters.

-- nothere nothere (notherethere@hotmail.com), November 19, 1999.

Andy,

This will be a polite post. You would consider me a "doomer", though not necessarily a "tinfoil". If you review my thread "Anyone have a UDF near them?" you'll notice that both my posts and "Truth"'s posts were greatly modified (a LOT of mud-slinging).

So, in that instance, YES, BOTH sides were affected.

If you wish to discuss this further, my e-mail address is valid. Always has been, always will.

-- Deb M. (vmcclell@columbus.rr.com), November 19, 1999.

Andy ray,

I guess that would depend on what the definition of the word "WITH" is....

;^)

-- Dennis (djolson@cherco.net), November 19, 1999.

I think *everyone* who posts to this forum deserves to hear an answer to his question. DID a sysop edit his sentence with the word "with" (thus changing the meaning)?

-- CD (not@here.com), November 19, 1999.

No liberty has been denied here Pro. Andy Ray and yourself can go and post all your venomous attacks on us Doomers to your heart's content on that board.

Knock yourself out, post the most vile and obnoxious "observations" of this board over there until your fingers fall off for all we care. You are free to do that.

No one here is preventing you from typing in your opinion and posting it. We just don't want it posted here. So go and post it over there, and be happy that you've contributed to the betterment of mankind in doing so.

See? No liberty lost. Just the "privelege" of posting what no one on this board wants to listen to from you.

But give your out-of-context application of the Constitution a rest. You're embarrassing yourself at your level of ignorance.

-- INVAR (gundark@sw.net), November 19, 1999.

Right on Invar. Why these jerks insist on hanging around where they are not wanted is beyond me.

-- Hawk (flyin@high.again), November 19, 1999.

A view on the question of freedom of speech:

The founding fathers intended the freedom of speech to apply in a personal conversation. They conceived of this freedom extending to a conversation being carried on between two people standing next to each other and in person. They clearly intended that there could not be unlimited use of this speech.

In their discussion of this issue, they defined it much more narrowly than some may expect. The laws in our country protect personal free speech only up to a limit, in current use, and as defined by our courts. Today's usage is broader than originally envisaged, but certainly an acceptable balance if used with restraint and self control.

Some types of speech are abusive of the common good. A community is left to determine for its own purposes what is abuse and what is not.

(soapbox mode off)

-- snooze button (alarmclock_2000@yahoo.com), November 19, 1999.

THE INTERNET IS NOT "AMERICAN". IT BELONGS TO NO ONE. IT IS LOCATED NOWHERE AND EVERYWHERE AT THE SAME TIME. IT IS THE LARGEST EXPERIMENT IN ANARCHY IN HUMAN HISTORY.

OR, IN OTHER WORDS, ANDY RAY, SH*T HAPPENS!

-- preparing (preparing@home.com), November 19, 1999.

This is probably going to be an unpopular position, and I am no fan of Andy Ray or his posts, so I have no way of getting out of this alive. But here goes...

If a post is changed, there are editorial symbols that can be used. The integrity of what a person tried to say is important, even if the person is a jerk. We should be able to know if it was changed, or we will forever be distrusting posts in the future.

I for one would like to know that what I am reading is what somebody else really said. It helps me judge the content of the contribution.

If, for example, someone else inserted the word "with" -- there should be parenthesis around the added phrase such as: (with -Ed.) or {with} {Sysops}. Likewise a delete could be ...{deleted -sysops}...

I know, I know, you are probably going to groan and tell me Get a Life. Possibly Elsewhere. Wasting time over Andy is not worth it.

But if you don't do this, trust disappears when one is reading all posts. Did he say that? Did she mean that?? How can I know what was said exactly? Then how can I really trust to evaluate whether this is true, true crap?

I get nervous if editing is not worn on the apron.

On the other hand, when things get really screwy, just delete the whole thing, or any disrupter who is habitually trolling. If, as you say, that is the policy here.

-- (normally@ease.notnow), November 19, 1999.

From: Y2K, ` la Carte by Dancr (pic), near Monterey, California

I agree that the editing of messages is uncool. I doubt that this actually happened, in this case. When mine have been edited, the operator has left a mark showing that they have done so, even though I had asked for the edit due to html errors. It would be helpful if the sysops would deny this particular edit and state that they don't and won't edit. Future such claims made by others would then be more easily disbelieved, and forum regulars could link to the blanket denial whenever they crop up.

-- Dancr (addy.available@my.webpage), November 19, 1999.

.....I agree with Dancr, Andy probably just forgot what he typed.

-- Patrick (pmchenry@gradall.com), November 19, 1999.

From: Y2K, ` la Carte by Dancr (pic), near Monterey, California

OK. We have a denial from Diane on Goodbye TBY2K. It's not the easiest thing to link to, but it will serve.

-- Dancr (addy.available@my.webpage), November 19, 1999.

Dancr,

IF... I edit... I leave a message [with brackets around it--Sysop] otherwise, just snip the whole post, or in some cases, the whole thread.

That's my policy.

Diane, leanin' on the delete key more

-- Diane J. Squire (sacredspaces@yahoo.com), November 20, 1999.

From: Y2K, ` la Carte by Dancr (pic), near Monterey, California

Of course, I knew that, but it helps to have you say it. It's just not as meaningful coming from me.

-- Dancr (addy.available@my.webpage), November 20, 1999.

Didn't see any editing, saw well-deserved deletions.

Diane has been maligned and outrightly lied about by Andy Ray who pulled a Poole. Diane posted a link to DeBunkies on the "Goodbye TB2K" thread where AR is engaging in exactly what I said he was all about above.

These asswipes are not about debate and discourse. They are about disruption, ridicule and the destruction of this discussion board. That is their mission, that is their "meme". It is why they exist. To them this is a war, in which they feel they have "right" on their side, and encourage any means necessary to achieve their stated goals, even if it's unethical and even criminal. The ends justify the means, by whatever technique they devise.

All these cries of "UNFAIR", all the cries of "CENSORSHIP!" are being done for no other reason than to destroy an opposing view of Y2K they think is wrong and dangerous.

This is a war to them. Get it through your minds, and understand it. This will enable us to fight alongside Diane, Chuck and the other SYOPS, and repel the invasion that has driven off so many intelligent voices on this board.

With the exception perhaps of Flint and Hoffmeister, of whom I openly disagree with and even spar, these other trolls serve no useful purpose on this board. Flint & Hoff's posts are at least of a cogent argument that induces some of the best debates and articulations ever found on a public forum.

Watching the morons pat each other on the back over at DeBunkies at their latest disruptions and baitings should serve as a reminder that all their wailing and gnashing of teeth over here is only a tool they're using towards closing this board down.

That's what they want.

But that's not what is going to happen. Time is short and critical. This endless bickering and taunting is pointless. I applaud Diane and Chuck for doing what needed to be done long ago.

-- INVAR (gundark@sw.net), November 20, 1999.

Andy Ray is so full of crap that it is flowing out of his mouth at a rate of about a thousand pounds a minute.

What a joke.

GET LOST ANDY RAY!

Tick... Tock... <:00=

-- Sysman (y2kboard@yahoo.com), November 20, 1999.

I don't see the word "with" in the statement in question. Do you? Case closed. Idiot troll.

-- Counting down (the@days.now), November 20, 1999.

hey Andy,

Remeber that little post I made about you and I being gifted because we can still actually think for oursleves??

It was the very first post on this thread... and now *poof* it's gone.

You're SO right about these fascist mother****ers. I expect this post to get deleted too.

F*** OFF LISA!! (AKA "Stealth Sysop")

-- (you@know.who), November 20, 1999.

These pollys are worthless trolls who should be deleted on sight, and anyone who wants to defend them should get the same. We don't need their crap. INVAR is right.

-- (brett@miklos.org), November 20, 1999.

Andy Ray seems to have become quite a whiner.

-- zoobie (zoobiezoob@yahoo.com), November 20, 1999.

I posted this reply in the "goodbye TB2K" thread http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=001oRE and is repeated here...

I vote for taking Andy Ray's posting PRIVILEGES away for this forum... Same goes for You Know Who...

Actually why stop there? ALL the DeBunky trolls should have their PRIVILEGES taken away! They don't belong here. If anyone lurking here wants to see both sides of the story, they can go to DeBunky to see what's there.

Notice I said PRIVILEGES. My tax $$$ pay for the city streets and stop lights, but to drive my car on them is a PRIVILEGE, NOT A RIGHT! Same goes for here!

You trolls really piss me off...

-- Forum Regular (Here@y2k.comx), November 21, 1999.