See thread...

Hyatt's bboard is down

http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=001gE7

-- Anonymous, October 31, 1999

Answers

Recieved a response from Michael...

Subject: Re: Hope this is a Halloween joke... but doesnt look like it...
Date: Sun, 31 Oct 1999 14:55:16 -0600
From: "Michael Hyatt" < mhyatt@michaelhyatt.com >
Organization: Y2K Prep, Inc.

Diane:

Thanks for your concern. We'll keep you posted. Please let us know if you hear anything. It's very frustrating watching it all disappear and not being able to do anything about it.

Thanks,

Michael

-- Anonymous, October 31, 1999

And Eds response to my forum Sysop Alert...

Subject: Re: Hope this is a Halloween joke... but doesnt look like it...
Date: Sun, 31 Oct 1999 15:49:21 -0500
From: Ed Yourdon < ed@yourdon.com >

Diane,

Thanks for sending this to me -- I had just noticed the thread on the forum, and I can imagine that Michael Hyatt must feel like he has been kicked in the solar plexus.

Since we have no real control over our own forum environment, I suspect that it's impossible for us to know whether we're going to get hacked. I simply have no idea how "robust" Phil Greenspun's overal forum software is to a deliberate, concerted attack.

All of this is a reminder that we might want to start looking for a backup environment that we can switch to, at some point in the next couple of months.

I can't help feeling that things are going to start getting very tense and ugly during the final month or so. We hit the two-month, 60-day mark tomorrow, as I'm sure you know...

[snip]

Cheers,
Ed

-- Anonymous, October 31, 1999

And Michaels response...

Subject: Re: Hope this is a Halloween joke... but doesnt look like it...
Date: Sun, 31 Oct 1999 15:05:53 -0600
From: "Michael Hyatt" < mhyatt@michaelhyatt.com >
Organization: Y2K Prep, Inc.

Diane:

Thanks for forwarding Ed's message to me. Yes, I feel like I've been kicked in the gut. I've never wanted to throw in the towel so badly in my life! I'm probably just mean enough to hang in here. ;-)

Thanks again,

Michael

-- Anonymous, October 31, 1999

If ya'll want to e-mail him, sounds like he could use a kind word about now.

Diane

-- Anonymous, October 31, 1999

I believe I can begin archiving all the Y2K prep threads to our Domino server. Have to write a little agent program but shouldn't be too hard. I'll give it a shot and keep you, err, posted.

-- Anonymous, October 31, 1999

Please do Russ.

I'll contact Phil Greenspun tomorrow. By phone if possible.

Diane

-- Anonymous, October 31, 1999

Subject: Re: Hope this is a Halloween joke... but doesnt look like it...
Date: Sun, 31 Oct 1999 21:34:32 -0400
From: "Rick Cowles" < rick@csamerica.com >

DJS,

I think all of us with forums on greenspun are probably in better shape than Michael's board, simply because of security issues. The security on MIT's server's would certainly better than a regular ISP (I *hope* so, anyway...). Here's a suggestion - change your admin password every week or so, just in case. And do it randomly, sometimes on Tuesdays, sometimes other days, and at different times of the day. I'm an absolute security freak about this sort of stuff. It's easy, and only takes a moment to do.

Also, the greenspun forums are quite different "under the hood". Check in with Critt Jarvis if you want a technical explanation of the forums. Lastly, the forums are backed up every night, and run on an SQL server separate from anything else. I think worst case, we'd lose maybe a day's stuff if we were hacked. Oh, and one more thing, Philip's servers are manned 24 hours a day.

Hope this eases your mind a bit. Damn shame about Mike's forums, and I hope he gets them running again very soon, with minimal data loss. As long as the ISP backs up every night, it shouldn't be a major problem, and he should be back up tomorrow. If the ISP doesn't perform regular backup's, Mike needs to look for a new ISP. ;-)

-- Anonymous, October 31, 1999

Subject: Re: Hope this is a Halloween joke... but doesnt look like it...
Date: Mon, 01 Nov 1999 00:13:07 -0400
From: "Rick Cowles" < rick@csamerica.com >

Diane,

[snip]

Please do keep me informed of any info that Philip sends to you - he usually responds to me with a smirky remark like "read the book". ;-) That's why I referred to you Critt - because he HAS read the book.

Re Ed's comments, I agree that whatever alternate means of communications that are cobbled together must be done quickly. We're all busy, though, and I'm not sure that anyone has the time to reinvent the wheel. Our two forums are run on the same software, so if yours goes, mine goes (it's what they call common mode failure...). I think the best idea is some coordination between some of the different Y2k boards that are running. In other words, if tby2k / euy2k are down, go to Hyatt. If Hyatt is down, go to Y2kNews. If that's down, go to ... etc. etc. Sort of a heirarchical thing that's coordinated between the various boards.

My other idea about stand alone direct dialup BBS's still stands. Sometime this week I'll be putting mine back online in a limited capacity, just for testing purposes. I'll give you the phone number when it's up and running. It would be a good idea, if this works, for everyone that's interested to take some time and get familiar with the BBS, because it ain't like the WWW. Also, you might want to put out the feelers in tby2k to see if there are any "ex-BBS sysops" out there that might like to form a small dialup network. I know of at least one. Please note that this endeavor would not be for the faint of heart, and there's no time to train rookies. Only current or ex-Fido or RIME sysops need apply (if you don't know what that is, don't worry about it - but it's an important prerequisite). If you decide to ask this in either the prep forum or tby2k, DO SO WITH AN ANONYMOUS POST WITH REPLIES GOING TO A HOTMAIL ADDRESS. Please don't publicly mention who suggested it (me) or who would be a part of the network, should anyone respond. I really believe that some degree of anonymity, in this case, is very important for security purposes.

[Note: Told him was sharing this with the MoDs--please respect his anon request--Di]

There are also some ham operators frequenting tby2k. They would be VERY important in any emergency communications, and folks in the forum could utilize them to pass along information.

Many thoughts, very little time...

Best,

Rick

-- Anonymous, November 01, 1999

Philip Greenspun < philg@martigny.ai.mit.edu >

Phil,

Over the weekend, one of the other Y2K forums on the net, hosted by Michael Hyatt, was hacked and many of their posts were deleted.

Ive been discussing this problem with our TBY2K Moderator team, and other Greenspun Forum Sysops like Ed Yourdon and Rick Cowles. I need to ask...

IF someone hacked the Admin password at either your level or one of our levels, and began deleting threads, do you have backups so that at least most of what might be lost could be restored?

How does that work?

We have reason to believe they "might" try an attempt on your Greenspun system as well. I realize I dont know how robust your MIT system/software is, and need to offer some answers to folks.

Thanks for a response Phil. (BTW, how are you?)

;-D

Diane

BACKGROUND:

(Added snipped comments fronm the following threads)

Hyatt's bboard is down
http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id= 001gE7

Paul Davis and Patricia explain Hyatt hacking
http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id= 001gQE

Michael Hyatt Discussion Forum Status
http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id= 001gWg

Phils Response...

*Sigh*

Subject: Re: Question Re: Greenspun S/W Potential Hackers
Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1999 13:35:31 -0500 (EST)
From: Philip Greenspun < philg@zurich.ai.mit.edu >
Reply-To: philg@mit.edu

I don't know which "tech people" they were talking about. Nobody called me and I was here all weekend. We do have some backups but sysadmin/dbadmin time is expensive (maybe $2000 to pull the relevant stuff from Oracle and apply it). Probably nobody will want to pay the guys...

Philip

-- Anonymous, November 01, 1999

Hope that prospective BBS comes with instructions. My DOS skills list is short: chkdsk, chkdir, mkdir, del, & copy.

-- Anonymous, November 01, 1999

Not chkdir. Just dir. Like I said.

-- Anonymous, November 01, 1999

Zammit, why the hell won't somebody who knows how back up the whole thing onto a CD, burn CD, whatever it's called? Does nobody really care about 2 years of incredible effort and historical documentation? A whole Forum full of computer "experts" and nobody has the brains to save it. No wonder Y2K is coming. Bunch of morons.

We're poor, make less than $5/hour each, difficult to find jobs, and yet we're willing to contribute $100 toward a CD, which Critt has said would be a piece of cake.

This idiotic irresponsible state of affairs is disgusting. We're glad we're going to die soon. Who wants to live in such an illogical disconnected world?

YOU IMBECILE COMPUTER MORONS

-- Anonymous, November 01, 1999

I think I can get a CD burner. Can someone who knows tell me the best way to archive the Timebomb? I'll do it.

Mike

====================================================================

-- Anonymous, November 02, 1999

A&L,

Burning a cd is simple, problematic. However, archiving data to a cd doesn't include the functionality of the forum software. You'd still have to have a way to view it.

Phil Greenspun writes clearly and succinctly explaining the how's and why's of this system's configuration. It's clean abd elegant. A motivated, non-technically challenged person could set it up.

But, there is care and feeding to consider. This system is readily manageable. However, even this system, like all systems whose metabolism is directed by software code, requires attention from human beings. Sometimes lots of it.

System administrators, database administrators, support engineers, software engineers (everybody's got a beeper and cell phone now) - this is what it takes to keep software robust.

Personally, I think the LAB at MIT will continue to be as accessible as anything can be on a public network. If it were to go down permanently, that would signal a set pf problems that we can't solve at this level.

Along the lines of thinking about BBSs, RAS (remote access services) could easily be set up on a WIN95/98/NT box.

Darn~! Must go to work now...

-- Anonymous, November 02, 1999

A&L,

Burning a CD is simple, but unless things have changed since I used to do CD-ROM creation for a living with a SONY-owned company, having a retrieval software and correctly structuring the data (a process called data prep) is NOT an easy process.

I'm personally not ignoring the ideas of backing up the archives, but Phil Greesnpun appears mighty uncooperative, without a large chunk of change.

I have already asked him, some time ago, about what it would take to back-up the archives. His terse response...

Subject: Re: Back-up Copies Of The TMY2K Forum Archive DB
Date: Thu, 8 Jul 1999 10:53:44 -0400 (EDT)
From: Philip Greenspun < philg@martigny.ai.mit.edu >

There are several hundred forums at http://www.greenspun.com

If we provided custom database services to each forum, we'd need a huge IT staff.

###

Money... and a large amount... at least $2,000 dollars...if were lucky... might help. But then, how do we access the data?

Ideally, we could back it up on a server (a million dollar machine that Phil has previously referred to) running Oracle and a copy of Greenspun's Forum software. Who has that?

Diane

-- Anonymous, November 02, 1999

Didn't somebody say they could download the whole thing while they slept? With a new free operating system? Brian?

To partially copy an eMail to Diane:

:-) That outburst felt really good, and face it, with a whole Forum full of computer experts, it is too bizarre that nobody has had the foresight, initiative, grace, response, or caring to back-up the threads. We truly believe it to be an invaluable unique collection of historical documentation detailing the collapse of civilization. But just like Y2K, nobody Gets It, everybody selfishly chasing $$, thinking their time/equipment is just too important to help out with a noble cause.

Bunch of HYPOCRITICAL morons discussing that which they themselves are prominently guilty of.

The blind bitching about the blind. Oh well. It's obvious :-)
...
The Forum has to be backed up pronto. The fancy stuff can come later (like next week) but the threads have to be preserved.

We're OK, just stressed, torked, pressed for time right now. Too many heavy mind-blowing revelations. The White House not-rememdiated computer/war system sent us over the edge :-) Morons, they're surrounding us, hhheeellllpppppp!

Anyway it felt really good to spit out the obvious, after trying so nicely and reasonably to say the common-sensible glaringly obvious for a year and having it totally ignored. Not much time left to be nice.
However, the truth-shock treatment probably won't jolt anybody to getting anything done either.

Our civilization is about to tank; the Forum is a microcosm of the overall Titanic.
-----------------------------

Would say more but it's all in the archives, even on this Mod Forum, pleading for back-up for months, before the system Y2Ks out or the hackers or .gov "moderators" destroy 2 years' worth of from-the-heart from-the-brain work by 100s of deeply concerned, special ppl.

And considering that cars/fuel may not be a viable option next year (see Oil Chat threads), we are finalizing a deal on 2 bikes & parts, before they're sold out, '99 clearance ... gotta run, comparison shopping, weighing, have to buy today & tomorrow.

Not a personal insult to any particular person, but a long-pent-up frustration at the total ineptitude of this amazing group of computer professionals whom we've come to love and admire over the last year.

GET WITH IT!

-- Anonymous, November 02, 1999

This forum is already archived. It's probabaly backed up at least once a day. I wouldn't be surprised if it's a dynamic process - could be happening as you're reading this.

Here's why I'm not concerned about losing this forum:

1) If MIT goes down, stays down, then really nasty things are happening and we probably don't have a viable internet or WWW services.

2) If all the servers at MIT and all their data were ionized right now, there are backup devices holdng the archives that would be restored to a new server.

Why?

3) Phil Greenspun believes old pages should never die, and they definitely shouldn't fade away.

Phil Greenspun is not a simple downstream genius, he's a really real genius. If anything on the net is gonna keep running, it's these frickin' forums.

IMHO,

Critt

-- Anonymous, November 02, 1999