Military Has "Martial Law" Exercise - At A Grade School!?! : LUSENET : TimeBomb 2000 (Y2000) : One Thread

Article at Infowars from the Pensacola News Journal:

"Martial Law" in Florida School

Looks like the military is doing a wonderful job cozying up to the kids to get them ready for martial law. This is disgusting - I put this kind of indoctrination one step short of child molestation. What kind of maggots do we have in the service these days?

Maybe we should send our military to Yugoslavia... and just leave them there. Then we could at least start fresh, with AMERICANS this time...

-- sparks (, April 08, 1999


Here's the article, in case it disappears.

26 March, 1999

By Jenny LaCoste

Pensacola News Journal staff writer

The sleepy atmosphere that precedes first period was broken at Hobbs Middle School on Thursday morning by the sound of Marines, Navy and Coast Guard pilots marching through the school's halls.

While sixth-graders in Lynnette Whitfield's geography class were watching CNN reports on NATO airstrikes against Yugoslavia, they heard a voice bark over the intercom: "Military personnel, take your classrooms."

The mock "takeover" of Hobbs Middle School by pilots and flight students from Whiting Field was a way to illustrate what martial law is all about, said Lt. Troy Beshears, a Coast Guard pilot assigned to Whiting Field Naval Air Station.

But once the sailors and Marines were in the classrooms, their mission was to teach for a day subjects such as math, science, history, and geography and give teachers a break.

"We're going for shock value initially," said Navy Lt. Dan Deutermann, 29. "but in the classrooms we're showing the students practical applications of what they're learning."

Some students brought up questions about the Kosovo situation.

Seventh-grader Cory Keelan selected Yugoslavia when a Navy ensign teaching geography asked students to name their favorite European country.

"I just like the name of it. It sounds cool," said Cory, 13. "I've been hearing it a lot lately."

Whitfield said her class knows more about Yugoslavia than just the name. Her students have been learning geography of the area, the history of the ethnic groups involved in the fighting that has killed more than 2,000 people in the Yugoslav province of Kosovo and keeping tabs on the current NATO air assault on Yugoslavia.

"Some of my students still don't really have a grasp on the situation, but others do because they talk about it with their parents," she said.

One of Whitfield's students, Julie McCool, said the presence of the military personel in her school made the news she had been watching from Yugoslavia seem a little more real.

"I just don't want it to get much worse," said Julie, 12.

Navy Ensign Kelly Robbins taught a class on geography, charting a Pacific cruise he took on an aircraft carrier and talking about his ports of call.

While an enlisted sailor working in intelligence, Robbins said he had to brief admirals, senators and Secratary of State Madeleine Albright, but middle schoolers made him nervous.

"At least with them, I knew what questions to anticipate," said Robbins, 27. "With kids, you're not sure what they might ask."

Besides giving students insight into places like Taiwan, Thailand and Singapore, Robbins gave the kids an idea of what it's like to be in the military.

He spent his first Christmas as a sailor in Hong Kong.

"You don't get to come home for Christmas?' Cory Keelan asked Robbins.

"No' not when you're on a ship," Robbins said.

"Did you get Christmas dinner?" Corey, 13, pressed.

Besides geography, flight students taught physiology, explaining how night goggles work with the human eye, aerodynamics and geometry.

"Kids don't realize that there are freeways in the sky and we have to use geometry to figure out our couse when we fly," said Beshears. "We're just showing them that the skills they're learning now are applicable in life."

The visit is part of the Whiting Field Adopt-A-School program coordinated by Beshears. Every instructor and flight student paricipating volunteered to take part.

Last year, students from Hobbs and another school communicated via e-mail with a Coast Guard lieutenant on a cruise bound for the South Pole and had a video teleconference with their frind once she got there.

-- sparks (, April 08, 1999.

sparks, it was strange, but the article really did not talk about what martial law is. After that experience the kids will be less frightened when they hear in November that Martial Law is coming; they'll proudly say: we know those people and it's fun!
A very different picture than the Serbian police abusing the refugees.

These days distinguishing the truth from the PR spin is turning into a full-time job for an eagle.

xxxxxxx xxxxxxx xxxxxxx xxxx

-- Leska (, April 08, 1999.

Exactly, Leska. With children, spinning martial law = happy event isn't too hard... cool uniforms and the novelty of it all. Hell, it probably won't be that hard to spin it that way with most grown-ups...

-- sparks (, April 08, 1999.

Hi sparks (your name perfect for this thread ;^), kids have alert perk-up antennae primed for adventure, drama, disasters, action. They also feel more secure with a little order imposed on the mayhem. The Military knows this -- can you say 'implanting recruitment seeds?'

I'm not against "career days" and the military coming to school, but I hope they do not paint war or martial law as a desireable "opportunity." They *could* go in there and discuss how war is a violent last resort that by now should no longer ever be considered because humans are evolving and studying history and know the futile destruction of such mistakes (yeah yeah yeah right sure dream on uh-huh).

Surprised we haven't seen Y2K Cartoons mushrooming, and Martial Law Adventures on Saturday morning TV -- although since we hardly ever watch, never on Sat a.m.s, maybe this is already happening?

The cartoons are an indication how much kids crave action and battle and, yes sparks: novelty! And maybe the ad-dolts also are getting bored and restless -- life is too good for too long?

We'd prefer a nice placid continuity of good easy convenient living, thankee. (Think I've turned into the kind of dolt I *despised* as a kid!).

xxxxxxxx xxxxxxxx xxxxxxxx xxxxxxxx xxxxxxxx xxxxxx

-- Leska (, April 08, 1999.

Is it just me or does this indoctrination have very insidious implications?

It appears obscene to me given who the CINC is...I think I'm going to be ill.

-- Charles R. (, April 08, 1999.


I think you've got this one wrong. It was a "psy-op" alright, but not for the reason that you concluded. It was, as the "Coastie" said, to teach the "kids" about martial law.

It seems far more likely to me that the intent was to indocrinate the "kids" with the belief that what the Serbs are supposedly doing is "martial law" and to "scare them a little" so that they come out of the experience with the idea that, "Our President is a good man. He is helping those people that the "bad" military Serbs are "taking over". It might even have been intended to foster that belief in the minds of the military! Egad! What a thought! Could the real "kids" have been the "teachers"?

As you may have noted, I'm of the conclusion that martial law in the U.S. is simply not in the cards, and as such, "prepping" the kiddos for it would be pointless.

In any case, whether you're right or I am (or neither), it was, at best, an ill advised stunt. The kids' own teacher should have made a simple introduction and the reporter should have selected a word other than "bark" and should not have given the impression of marching troops in school hallways. Old Git is right, P'cola has been doing this for a long time and a lot of those kids are most likely "military brats" anyway and know all about "martial law".

And, as long as I'm talking about "psy-ops", let me add that the title chosen for this thread was more than a little misleading. It conjures up images of bayonet wielding combat Marines assualting a children's school. The actual fact is that a group of student pilots from the Navy and Coast Guard as well as the Marines, taught school some and did a military "show and tell" for the kids of the community that they live in.

You watch too much TV!

If you simply do not trust our armed forces, you are indeed in a bad place.

-- Hardliner (, April 08, 1999.

(Sung to the tune of that famous Beach Boys hit):

....And it's Spin, Spin, Spin 'til your gov'ment takes your freedom awaaaay.

Nothing like priming the youg-n's to be Clinton's Brownshirts.

-- INVAR (, April 08, 1999.

>If you simply do not trust our armed forces, you are indeed in a bad place.

I trust "our" military to do whatever their UN commanders tell them to. Turn on the t.v.; we're already in a "bad place," and we're not being told one one-hundredth of how bad a place it really is. Once Russia steps in (right on cue), we'll all be in the terror zone. I've seen what "good people" do in the terror zone.


-- Dano (bookem@blacksand.srf), April 08, 1999.


If I thought that there was even a remote chance that that was what happened at that school, I'd pick up the telephone and call General Krulak and ask him what the hell he was doing with my Marine Corps. I am sure that it was not.

The most reasonable explanation that I can offer for that conclusion is that the "United States Psy-Op Corps" (whoever they may be) are undoubtedly a pretty savvy bunch of folks when it comes to manipulating young minds. Does it stand up to any sort of examination that they would send a bunch of student pilots to carry out their "operation"? Those guys are without doubt far more concerned about whether or not they're going to pass their meterology exam or if their instructor is going to "wash them out" before they earn their flight wings. They're either too busy or too tired for anything but flying, studying or eating (and often too tired for food). On top of all that, I'd be amazed if you found anyone at NAS Pensacola (in uniform) that doesn't detest "Slick". It just doesn't make any sense.


You need to turn your TV off of the Science Fiction Channel and quit watching so much Sliders. In this world, the UN has its nose out of joint because NATO didn't consult with them before taking action and can't get the USA to pay their dues. NATO is, and always has been, a military instrument of American imperialism and as such, does what the American president orders. (there's just no other way to say it). And, if you were watching This Week last Sunday, you'd have heard Henry Kissinger say that Russia is not capable of confronting NATO militarily. If you think Dr. Kissinger is wrong, that's your privilege, but not many would agree with you.

I too have been in a few "terror zones" and I understand your meaning, but you can't seriously expect "Slick" to allow the type of reporting that created the Viet Nam "baby killers" into our living rooms. Lest there be any doubt, I do not agree with the NATO action, and I think "Slick" should be on trial in the Hague. As "Harderliner" said, "We don't even have a dog in that fight!", but the outcome will take place elsewhere, and whatever it is, it will capture the world's, and more to the point, America's attention until the other "problems" the administration wants to "take care of" (more scandal, more Chinese money, Chinese spies, etc.) are out of focus.

The real terror will happen when America is called to account for allowing "Slick" to do his evil deeds. If you don't believe that, just ask the Germans. . .

-- Hardliner (, April 08, 1999.

Hardliner: You must have missed the thread a week or so ago where Dick Mills predicted martial law for some of the big cities later this year. This is pretty much a given IMHO, even if it turns out the power and water stay on, and the 50% of the US that relies on government checks continue to receive them.

-- a (a@a.a), April 08, 1999.


In my parallel universe, nations are manipulated by transnational financial interests. "America" is a mere subsidiary now, a banana republic, due to the internationalization of the economy. In my universe, wars - even devestating world wars - are rigged by hidden oligarchs, to revitalize economies, reduce excess population, stimulate technological innovation, and (last but not least) make vast fortunes for lenders. These financial powers use NGOs, Nations, parties, terrorist cells, etc., as tools, often playing them off against eachother, even to the point of open, violent conflict. I wish I could slide over to your universe for awhile. We have a Kissenger over here, too. But in our universe, he was exposed for illegally bombing Cambodia, for the purpose of stimulating a psychotic communist regime that would serve as a negative example that might fuel further ideological/financial struggle. He is still at large. My guess is that if his people want to goad Russia into an ill-considered and desperate move, he would not publically admit to believing such a move were even possible (he's very clever). Russia is in a corner. They are bristling with nukes, and they still have some extremely nasty items in their bug collection. They are humiliated, desperately poor, our aid is ineffective in all but survival, and militarizing would invigorate their economy, and bring greater solidarity among western powers. They have threatened to use tactical nukes if the conflict spreads in their direction, and have stated plans to deploy them in Byelorussia (TASS). The speaker of their Duma recently pledged military aid to Serbia, should the NATO attack continue (Russia Today). I'm glad for you, that the Russia in your universe is impotent and submissive; "your" Yeltsin must be in firm control (ours is a sick, bumbling, unpopular drunk, and desperate Russian fascists and communists are gaining more control with every NATO bomb that falls). By "terror zone," I meant a psychological state, in which citizens are shocked into (even more) mindless support of authoritarian, military action. The agenda is to accellerate the militarization of civil society under the pretext of national security. Clearly, that is the desired outcome. Russians on the march in Europe could do it; the backlash to NATO warcrimes that you speak of could do it - especially if it's on American soil. In my universe, our local police have become so militarized in behavior and appearance that civilians are terrified. There have been joint military/police attacks on innocent civilians in which women and children were slaughtered, and warrants are routinely served by squads of military men who are not accountable for their all-too-frequent "mistakes." We ARE a police state now. So there is no question where we are being led. If a serious war breaks out, the "martial law" we've been getting a taste of may become a permanent way of life. I'm glad you're universe seems to be avoiding this fate.

Our "Slick" sold secrets to China too. But here, he was a pawn in a much larger conspiracy, to merge the two societies into a "third way," making China more like the Corporate plutocracy, and America more like the socialist prison-state. The way things are going in "our" America with incarceration for victimless crimes, EVERYBODY will either be in prison, or be working in the prison system, by 2050. Given that the real power in "our" world is transnational, the next step in the plan may involve America losing a major conflict and being forced to adopt globalist terms in the restructuring. This makes sense, because we're the hardest nut to crack, in terms of nationalism. So, in my universe, it's plausible that WWIII is supposed to occur, we're supposed to, sooner or later, get our asses kicked (or at least worn down to nothing), in order to make our "extreme nationalism" more digestable to the emerging global economic order, and it's beyond-rich controllers. They risk a lot, but the resultant prize is total world-system control. Be glad this isn't happening where you are.


-- Dano (bookem@blacksand.srf), April 08, 1999.

Pretty funny, Hardliner - considering that I gave up watching the tube years ago. All I know is that the military should not be in our public schools for any reason.

The U.S. military will do whatever they're told to do. They are not citizen-soldiers, they are a volunteer army. Anyone who volunteers for active military duty is foolish at best, and bloodthirsty at worst. In my book, that makes them equals with the SS, a similar volunteer force. If ordered to kill you and your family, Hardliner, the majority would not hesitate to follow whatever orders they were given, whether the orders were legal or not. If you haven't noticed, we are in an illegal war... how many soldiers have refused to participate so far?

Yeah, we're in a bad place, look around... you are too.

-- sparks (, April 08, 1999.

P.S. Ditto all Dano's remarks... excellent post, Dano.

-- sparks (, April 08, 1999.

Obscene! Like warming up the water for the frog so he won't jump out....

-- Donna Barthuley (, April 08, 1999.


Equating our military with the SS is a pile of horseshit. If you cannot see that for the foaming mouth insanity it is, nothing I can say will save you. Enjoy your electro-shock, don't fight the nice young guys in white.

-- Uncle Deedah (, April 08, 1999.


your & Dano's remarks concerning the U.S. military are entirely unfounded and an insult to every service person past and present. We ALL deserve an appology from the two of you, as it is readily apparently that neither one of you even have the intestinal fortitude to sign his own real name, much less ever go in harm's way in service of his country.

Arlin Adams

-- Arlin H. Adams (, April 08, 1999.


Could you be more specific? I'm not sure how I offended, exactly. I support our troops - no matter what godforsaken, useless atrocities we make them commit in our names. For warbucks.

I hope I don't need to add that, the men who actually dropped the bombs on Cambodia, for instance, were good men. The fact that their motivation was good only makes the reality I describe more horrific. Like I said: good people don't have the whole picture and end up doing bad things. Actors like Clinton will not be punished "at the Hague." As at Nuremburg, and Dresden, the innocents and smalltimers will bear the brunt. Loyalty, trust and other virtues only make good people, including soldiers, more servicable in the cause of ---- well, you fill in the blank. I'm not on some moralistic hippy high-horse. I just want to keep up with events.

Nazis didn't have horns. They didn't go out and say: "Ah. I hope I get to kill some innocent people today." They steeled themselves to it, as we are being conditioned to steel ourselves to the current bombing campaign (pretty easy in a news blackout). I don't think the US military are comparable to Nazis. But they do have at least one thing in common: they both thought they were doing something good, and thought they were fighting something evil. And they're both good at what they do.


-- Dano (bookem@blacksand.srf), April 08, 1999.

No apology will be forthcoming, as no insult occurred. I merely stated a fact and an opinion. The military is currently acting outside the bounds of the Constitution. The President only becomes the Commander-In-Chief of the military upon a formal declaration of war by Congress. There has been no such declaration. Therefore, they are acting illegally as Clinton's personal force, much as the SS did for Hitler.

If any apology is owed, it's from you to me, Arlin. How dare you assume that I have never served my country. As for pseudonyms, you may choose to use your real name, I choose not to. In your mind, I guess that makes me less human/righteous/brave/correct than you. I simply think it makes me wiser.

-- sparks (, April 08, 1999.

Wow Sparky! I didn't know that you were in the Gestapo!

-- Uncle Deedah (, April 08, 1999.

Dano, by that line of reasoning you could equally well say that the US military and the Little Sisters of Charity are both proficient at what they do and both seek to do good.

...a lot of us didn't have problems with bombing across the HCM trail, into Cambodia, but that's not really relevant here - other than to note that there are no safety zones, time outs, or do-overs in least not when it's run by professionals. It's the amatuers like billy jeff (or Lyndon Johnson, to stay in the VN motif) that end up messing around until the whole thing is FUBAR.

While I do NOT think that the Clintonista misadventures with miltary force are in any way a positive thing, they do once and for all demonstrate that the American emphasis on maintaining civilian authority over the military at all times, does in fact work. This is extremely critical if one is to avoid a junta-style of coup de etat. Indeed it's imperative that such civilian control be maintained if the Republic is to survive.

If you want to make remarks about the leadership go ahead, but comparing activities of the US military with those of Nazi Germany is both offensive and unrealistic. Considering the current commander in chief, what would you suggest the JCS do as an alternative? any attempt at mass insubordination would make every single American overseas an instant target for terrroist attack...or are you suggesting the possibility of a coups?

If neither of those two outcomes is acceptable to you, what other alternative is there?


-- Arlin H. Adams (, April 08, 1999.

Hardliner is normally dead on, but I think even he may have downplayed the symbolic significance of this. Arlin, why so testy all of a sudden?

-- James (, April 08, 1999.

Uncle, you cannot possibly know how incredibly offensive that remark was to me, a Jew. Perhaps if you had had relatives... ah, never mind.

-- sparks (, April 08, 1999.

What bothers me here is that sparks is attempting to blame the military (which *is* functioning within the bounds of the War Powers act, by the way)for what is essentially a civilian function - declaration of war, etc, etc.

The President is the commander in Chief *all* of the time - thus reads the Constitution, thus reads federal law. Sparks obviously doesn't grasp this fact. He also doesn't grasp the fact that he is advocating mutiny on the part of the U.S. Armed Forces. Both of these bits of information are communicated to new service members in basic training and repeatedly reiterated throughout their time in service.

Stop and think people - do you *want* a military that refuses to follow legally appointed authority acting within the scope of the law? Do you want a military that simply tells politicians to take a hike whenever said politicians come up with another hairbrained scheme? However much we disagree with what billy jeff is doing on Yugo, he's got 60 days to do it before he has to justify it to Congress.

Oh, and your lack of knowledge of basic Constitutional chain of command structure and the legal requirement of every military person to follow lawful orders are how I know you've never served in the US military, sparks. It's also obvious you have no idea what it means to be an AMERICAN Soldier, Sailor, Marine, or which country did you serve? hmm???


-- Arlin H. Adams (, April 08, 1999.

As a third generation military brat, former USMC officer and married to a military helo pilot let me offer a thought. Could it be that part of the larger campaign is to purposely cause more division in America. The powers that be have been pretty successful with ethnic division as much as they try to put a happy face on it.

If we were a UNITED States of America, much of the behind the scenes power grabbing would be more difficult.

In this case more division military against civilians.

I have very, very mixed feelings about the current use and abuse of the armed forces as does husband and many of the folks he works with. I think there is cause for concern, I also think (if you're a NWO kind of thinker) that one of the great potential stumbling blocks for doing away with nationalism just might be the United States military.

Demoralize, make suspect before the populace and misuse. Divide and conquer.


-- EC (, April 08, 1999.

EC -

interesting thought. Possible, too.


-- Arlin H. Adams (, April 08, 1999.

"Oh, and your lack of knowledge of basic Constitutional chain of command structure and the legal requirement of every military person to follow lawful orders are how I know you've never served in the US military, sparks..."

I'm quite familiar with the UCMJ, thank you. I also know that the highest lawful orders come from God almighty. Following *man's* lawful orders leads to things like Auschwitz and Belsen. You might read this thread for a fuller perspective on my views:

Support Our Troops

-- sparks (, April 09, 1999.


When we drag a lurking BAM out of lurkhood to referee, SOMEONE is out of line.


PS Ma'am, please don't take offense, I have a couple sisters-in-law who were BAMs also. One in broadcasting. And they BOTH used the term with a chuckle.

-- Chuck, a night driver (, April 09, 1999.

In 1967 they came to my high school. They called us to assembly in the gymnasium. It was for a graduate from last year. He was killed in Viet-Nam. It was conducted by school officials and recruiters from the Marine Corps. It was sad but stirring as they told the assembly how He had had been brave in the face of combat. Alas, only to commit the supreme sacrifice to God and country. They draped his empty coffin with the American flag. Marines didn't die, I knew better. I always wanted to be one. At seventeen I became one. . I was young and impressionable. But yet I was a warrior. I will forever be proud of my time as a Marine. However to send the military in to such an impressionable environment as a middle school is not without purpose. The purpose I suppose is indoctrination by intention. Hardliner,I greatly admire you, your thoughts are in the true tradition of the Corps. You are articulate and passionate in your beliefs. However sometimes you have to think like a grunt.......Semper Fi

-- 0300 (marine@infantry...), April 09, 1999.

What a Thread!

-- Tom McDowell (, April 09, 1999.

First things first! BAM is an acronym for Beautiful American Marine.


I was a grunt once. My "pogey rope" hangs from the hilt of my sword over my fireplace as I write this.

Having told you that, I have to also tell you that I agree with what you've written and do not see it as wrong in any way. In a world that makes a society need a military, it makes sense to have the best one. That will require quality people and it will require recruitment from the ranks of the young. In your assembly, I'm sure that none of the Marines deceived you as to the fate of the former student but as you said, "Marines didn't die, I knew better. . .I was young and impressionable". Young people, whether considering military service or not believe themselves to be "bulletproof". That's why so many of them kill themselves in automobiles. If they're fortunate, they find out that they're not "bulletproof" long enough before their death to enjoy life for a while. Not everyone does. But being a warrior is more risky than most human endeavors and is an honorable calling. It is no more wrong for the military to "show their stuff" to students than for engineers or doctors to do so. We (as a society) need them all.

This is almost certainly a part of the objective of the program that put the pilot trainees into the P'cola schools, but to suggest that there was a premeditated scheme to "brainwash" the kids into acceptance of martial law (here or there) is simply not credible.

Semper Fi -


You're right, I missed that one. My browser says I've read them all, but I don't recall him saying that. Anyway, if Mills is talking about a few cities, he's talking about the military "helping" the civilian authorities enforce existing law. That's not only legal under existing law, I think it's probably a good idea if it keeps people from chopping down utility poles for firewood.

What I can't see happening is true martial law, where the only rules are the whims of the military commander. I can't see Mills' scenario for much more than a few cities either because we simply do not have the manpower in the military.


That parallel universe that you're in is actually pretty similar to the one here, but the transnational financial interests here all have opulent offices in New York or Washington and hold much of their capital in U.S. T-Bills. America is not a subsidiary nor a banana republic and the internationalization of the economy could more properly be described as the Americanization of the world economy. The American stock exchanges set the pace and the tone for world financial markets.

The same hidden oligarchs do the same things here, so it wouldn't gain you much to escape to this world.

The definition of an "illegal bombing" here is one that the PsTB don't want to happen and the very ideas of war and law are antithetical. Here, war is simply an admission that the rule of law was unsuccessful at achieving the aims of the lawmakers. I suspect that in your world as well as this one, all wars are economic tools.

Russia in this world is much as you describe it in yours, but a war will not help their economy here without the blessing of the transnational financial interests that have opulent offices in New York or Washington and hold much of their capital in U.S. T-Bills. They may get it, and the future is always unclear. I never said, nor did I mean, that "our" Russia was impotent and submissive, but only that they were in no shape to fight a conventional war with NATO. Regardless of what Dr. Kissinger's motives might be, he is greatly respected in this world and is so because he is usually proven correct. Boris is portrayed as the same sick bumbling drunk by the media in this world, yet common sense would indicate that if he were actually as he is depicted, he couldn't hold onto the immense amount of raw power that he has for as long as he has. Again, time will tell and the future is seldom clear.

While the agenda here also is to accelerate the militarization of civil society, it is not being done by shocking citizens. The "Soma" model prevails and the pharmaceutical conglomerates are making a killing financially while lulling the populace into a drug induced stupor where even the strutting police chiefs who wear the stars of general military officers cause little concern. The military has yet to join with the civli police in attacks on innocent civilians in which women and children are slaughtered, although they did loan them some equipment (under orders from "Slick") which was misused in a massacre at Waco, Texas. Warrants are still served by civil police, although they fancy themselves a para-military organization. In the same way that Hitler in this time-line had an "ersatz military" of police in military uniforms, so is the America here becoming. Our America is definitely an economic police state and in some aspects approaches a "pure" police state (if that's not a totally blasphemous use of the word "pure"). True martial law is impossible here simply because there are not enough military to have it, and even if there were, the character of the military would have to change drastically before it could be instituted. What is quite worrisome is that the civil police (who outnumber the actual military in practical terms) will enforce some draconian parody of a legal system that will only visit misery on the populace and wealth on the elite.

In this world, powerful interests have been trying to convert China to a "third way" since before the Egyptian pyramids were new and no one has yet succeeded. It is doubtful that anyone ever will achieve control of China save the Chinese.

The "prison industry" is out of control here too. It is actually considered a "growth industry" and something will have to give very soon. "This" America already imprisons more humans per capita than any nation in this world!

More likely here than a WWIII and an American defeat, I think, is an emerging global economic order that is an American global economic order, with headquarters in New York with annexes in Washington.

To tell you the truth, Dano, neither world is the one I came from and I really don't like either one very much.

-- Hardliner (, April 09, 1999.

The tube's not all you gave up years ago, "Sparks", you gave up any semblance of humanity and/or sanity that you may have ever had. You are an insult to Judiasm! Six million murdered souls moan in agony that you claim their fate as your justification to disparage men far more worthy than you'll ever be.

If I state that Jews have a reputation for being stiff necked and if I offer the opinion that you are an amoral troglodyte, have I insulted you or, "merely stated a fact and an opinion"? (don't bother to answer, the question is rhetorical)

The fact is that you are a misbegotten and miscarriaged travesty of a human being and an ignorant and pathetic small minded victim of your own fears and nightmares and demean Creation each and every time that you inhale.

Dr. Eric Berne (who, BTW may have been a real Jew) defined a game that people play called, "Wooden Leg". I have watched you play it on this forum as you attempt to manipulate others by playing on their sympathy for your dead relatives. Just for your information, having relatives who perished at the hands of a group that hated your family because of their ethnic characteristics simply gives you something in common with the Serbs, and the Kosovars, and the Bosnians, and the Croatians and more other groups than I care to enumerate here.

You have demonstrated quite adequately that you know a little more about batteries than the U.S. Constitution and American law, but not much more.

You have demonstrated an abysmal ignorance of both the U.S. military and Hitler's SS.

You have demonstrated unmitigated gall and unearned arrogance in attempting to judge who has business in our schools.

The term "legal war" is an oxymoron and an obscenity and if you had even a small set of functioning neurons, you might understand that. I do not expect you to.

You're not fit to even carry a slops bucket, not even for the SS and you're certainly not fit to call yourself a Jew. You're just a "wannabe" victim and a crybaby who could benefit from the services of Dr. Kevorkian (who, BTW, is a real Jew.

-- Hardliner (, April 09, 1999.

Seems to me a lot of people on this thread under-estimate the Russians and Chinese. Do a little digging. Pay attention.

Russia/China Alliance

-- Andy (, April 09, 1999.

Hardliner, the only answer to a post such as yours is no answer. Your own vitriol provides a reply far more eloquent than any I could hope to write.

However, you should be pleased to know that your posts, as well as others here on this forum, have affected me deeply over the past few days. I've decided that I'll no longer post here. The level of discussion has been lowered so much by flames like yours that there is no point in letting it be a part of my life... I have much better things to do than get upset.

Chalk up another "victory" for your side.

-- sparks (, April 09, 1999.

Speaking from experience as a former Navy spouse (of a Navy pilot): Pensacola, like Norfolk, VA, Jacksonville, FL, San Diego, CA, and so on is a NAVY town. It eats, breathes and sleeps Navy and, to a lesser extent, other military personnel. The local TV stations and newspapers heavily feature Navy/military news. Durham, NC, is a university town, home of Duke. Duke is a large part of the social fabric of this town and, yes, volunteers from Duke go into the schools as mentors and teachers. IBM, with its thousands of employees, does the same to a lesser extent. The point is, large entities with thousands of employees have a measurable impact on the town in which they're situated. Military personnel are more likely to be involved in volunteerism because, by the nature of their careers, they're service-oriented. Those kids in the Pensacola school (or Norfolk, Jacksonville, San Diego, or wherever) are either from Navy families or know someone who is. (The services no longer have their own on-site schools, except overseas.)

The Adopt-a-School program has been in place for decades. My husband was a volunteer for similar programs with the Boy Scouts and the 4-H Club. He never considered, nor was any impression ever given by the organizers, that it was indoctrination. The volunteers were just helping kids, that's all. Talking to kids in a classroom about flying planes or taking the kids to climb in and out of cockpits and "fly" a plane is not so far removed from kids playing with the toy versions or their video games. Taking your kid to an air show or to visit a carrier in port is not so far removed, either.

I'm completely with you, Hardliner.

-- Old Git (, April 09, 1999.

Okay. So there was nothing nefarious about them being in the classroom. Tell me again why they were there? Why were student pilots teaching math and geography? Help me to understand why there was not some secondary gain hoped for? Were the visitors "under orders"? Why? Madison Avenue stuff? "Be all that you can be"-stuff? Help me make sense of it.

BTW, if it were the retirees, the grey-haired ones there I could understand the "touching a hot iron" response from the ex-military types...but what is the "my military right or wrong stance"?

-- Donna Barthuley (, April 09, 1999.

Donna, Since not a single person has answered your question as to why they were there, may I give you my thoughts? It's just my .02, but here goes.... A lot of the little children will indeed look up to the military and their uniforms. Uniforms are cool. You are taught to trust a uniform... look at the police, they have "kewl" uniforms. Anyway, these guys and gals were there just to show them how there school work relates to REAL LIFE WORK. I can remember sitting and school thinking why should I be in this class, as I could never need it in a million years. WRONG!!!!! I use it everyday, well most of it anyway. I do use tons of math and science. Geography is always good to know. They are just trying to get these kids to relate what they are learning into a real world. That's all, nothing evil.

-- (heres@my.guess), April 09, 1999.


Thanks from the dispatch from Earth II. I think you were a bit hard on Sparks. Sparks' indicts not so much the military (as I read him) as he does civilians, media and politicians , for accepting unjust, violent acts uncritically (or encouraging same). The way people are increasingly alienated and lacking community, "road rage" and other forms of routine agression and selfishness are becoming not just acceptable but positively adaptive. Given this, I think we can expect a change in the character of the military, as we are seeing with the police, over the years. We are not Nazis. But if we continue down the road we're on, there's no reason why we (as a culture, including military and police people, not Them against Us civilians) might not become even worse, in terms of wanton cruelty. Unless we get reinforcements from our world-of-origin...

>The term "legal war" is an oxymoron...

This gets to the heart of it all. If we accept this statement, and when we consider the percentage of total budget spent toward military readiness, and the integral nature of war and economy, "law" appears to be a veneer so thin as to be a mere rationalization for criminal enterprise. Since you are a warrior and I'm not, I hope you will expound on this for me: if war is outside of law, what is war but criminal activity? That is (put less provocatively): what rules govern warfare, "rules" in the sense of standards of right conduct. As opposed to technical rules like "win" or "take cover when being shot at." An example of the "laws" or standards of decency I'm getting at might be: "don't rape women." Or: "don't shoot people who are surrendering." Are there such rules or laws that are rooted in some essential humanity (as opposed to mere diplomatic conventions)? And if there are, can we, by extension, look for these ethical standards in the larger (perpetual, hot and cold) war of nations, as we might on the battlefield? It might seem like I'm just trying to make a point, but I'm asking because I don't know, and I value the opinion of someone who's actually been in battle (and obviously studied and thought about it a lot). Yet if I didn't have some belief that there were standards, "laws" for empires as well as soldiers (and rush hour drivers), it wouldn't matter if we became Nazis. Or worse.


-- Dano (bookem@blacksand.srf), April 09, 1999.


I assumed that you had posted simultaneously with some of the other posts that seemed to me to answer your questions. Do you still have any? If so, I'll have a go at them.

As for the, "'touching a hot iron' response" and the, "my military right or wrong stance", you should find the following relevant.


I was not nearly hard enough on "Sparks". He needs to visit each of the white granite markers that bears the Star of David at Arlington National Cemetery and all the other U.S. military cemeteries throughout the world, which mark the graves of "volunteer" Soldiers and Sailors and Marines and Airmen and tell each of them that they were, "foolish at best, and bloodthirsty at worst and that in his book, "that makes them equals with the SS, a similar volunteer force." He needs to have an anagram forcibly imprinted on his nerve-knot to the effect that (with very few exceptions) the American military is not made up of men and women who would kill him and his family simply because they were ordered to do so. He needs a lot of things, but I'm not the man to give them to him. The feel of the sweat of other Marines that I've huddled intimately with in "poor" situations but who are no longer among the living and the smell of our collective fear are too much still with me to forgive, much less forget arrogant and egotistical pontificating such as that cretin displayed here. Too many good men that I've broken bread with, shed tears with, shared joy and women with who came home in green rubber bags and long silver boxes live in my memory to allow such filth to pass unchallenged. Those men live, in some fashion, in the thoughts of us who knew them and I will not allow such slander to their deeds and memory without all the protest my soul can muster. No Dano, I wasn't too hard on "Sparks" but he carries the seeds of his own destruction within himself and as sure as Winter turns to Spring, those seeds will bear fruit and he will reap as he has sown. He is a baboso.

As to your comments regarding the "growth" of our society in untoward directions, I completely agree. We are indeed becoming Romulans and the dream of a serene and fruitful Vulcan civilization is receding at a quite alarming rate.

Now as to wars, laws, crimes and such, I'll start to answer your request with a thought from Daniel Quinn (author of the Ishmael books) that "laws" are rules made by our culture in the expectation that some men will break them. This is a significant concept inasmuch as a great many of the "wrongs" in our culture are wrong only because the culture says that they are.

When I ran away from home to join the Corps with a forged birth certificate, I was very much like the young man that "0300" described himself as in his post above. I actually hoped that I might be of the generation that would see an end to warfare by mankind. Some years and wars later, I learned that many flavors of apes have wars and I saw my youthful and idealistic hopes for the illusion that they were.

Unless I'm greatly mistaken, the NATO charter specifically prohibits aggression. Although that document is not a law in the sense of being a statute, it is nonetheless a legal document which defines some of the rules of our culture. A much clearer example is the U.S. Constitution. Every word of that document is the supreme law of the land.

In both examples, we have no trouble locating instances where the rules have not been followed. The easiest method is to simply ignore the rule. In some extreme cases (such as repeal of the Volstead Act) the rule is "un-made". Not everyone has such prerogative however. Such is reserved for those who make the rules.

To say that something is criminal is also to say that it is unlawful, but the reverse is not true. If you fail to honor a lawful and valid contract that you have made, your conduct is unlawful yet does not amount to a crime. Such wrongs are called torts. While this is correct for individuals and corporations and such, I have to tell you that my legal education in the area of international law is simply inadequate to tell you just what it is called when such laws are broken by nations. Simple observation however, demonstrates that these transgressions too are the prerogative of those who rule. If they choose to make such acts criminal, the court at the Hague may deal with them. If they do not, they may apply other remedies, such as UN sanctions. In all cases, "going to court" to answer the charges or adhering to such sanctions as may be imposed is a matter of whether or not the court or other authority has the means to compel your compliance. Here is where "the rubber meets the road" and the military gets involved. Country A says that its border is on the east bank of the river. Country B says it's on the west bank. Informal diplomacy fails, formal diplomacy with intercession by a third party fails, and the two countries send troops to secure "their" side of the river. The country with the successful military gets what it wants. After the fact, the winners tell the losers what the new laws are, and everything is made retroactive. That's how Persia came to be Iran. That's how Serbia and all the other Balkan nations came to be Yugoslavia. Hell, that's how part of Mexico got to be Texas!

The rules in effect at the beginning of a war are very likely not going to be the ones in effect after it's over. Rules, as exemplified by James T. Kirk, are made to be broken. All is fair in. . .war (another oxymoron). To the victor, the spoils. It's all there, and it's all depressingly and horrifyingly real.

The only rules in war are those made and enforced by the winners.

You ask, "If war is outside of law, what is war but criminal activity?"

The best answer I can give you is that war is what man does when he is not preparing for war. I posted a brief list of the wars in the Balkans since 229 B.C. last week on this forum on this thread . It is an adequate illustration of my statement. Such lists may be compiled for any region on the face of this earth, and they will not look much different.

As an attempt to leave you with a new viewpoint, let me suggest that from the perspective of a 4th millennium historian, the current fracas in the Balkans will be seen as a simple episode in the continuation of the Crusades.

-- Hardliner (, April 09, 1999.

Okay, agreed: Sparks needs a spankin'. The "maggots" comment at the top of the post was wacky, too...

Thanks for your view. It seems the short answer is: "yes, warfare is criminal activity, and nations are criminals." Or, if we decide that we can't judge nations as we do individuals, then: "they behave like criminals." As you say, depressingly and horrifyingly real.

good thread.


-- Dano (bookem@blacksand.srf), April 09, 1999.


I'm happy that you found my remark offensive! Please set yourself up for more, I'm always ready to oblige someone who is asking for it.

Try to follow this:

1) You equated the US military with the SS.

2) When called on it by Arlin, you were wounded that he thought you had not served your country, ergo, you did serve your country.

3) If the US military in your mind is equal to the SS, by serving in the military you were in the "Gestapo". (Which is not exactly the SS, but it has a certain ring to it)

See how that works?

Let me know if I can be of any further help.

-- Uncle Deedah (, April 09, 1999.

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