Support our troops. They are putting themselves in harm's way for us. The invasion will save the country from the aggressive acts of its leaders. They will use the minimum force necessary to assure victory. Support our troops.

"Well, I don't believe we should be there, but now that we're at war we must support our boys."

The German people said the same thing in 1938. It was a coward's statement then, as much as it is now... a good, safe answer for fence-sitters. It is criminal for us to interfere in the affairs of a sovereign state such as Yugoslavia. Anyone who supports our involvement there implicitly shares in the crimes committed by our government. If the German people had the moral fiber to to know right from wrong, perhaps they wouldn't have supported their troops... although considering they didn't so much as whine while Hitler was busy creating a police state and demonizing Jews, probably not.

I'm tired of being taxed to death supporting a pax americanus. I'm tired of the media painting horns on anyone we don't like. I'm tired of my countrymen having the government spit in their face daily, and then believe it when it tells them it's raining. Most of all, I'm tired of the moral degeneration of the American people, who "...don't believe we should be there, but now that we're at war we must support our boys."

This is why Y2K will wreak such havoc on this country. Our moral compass isn't weak - we willing threw it overboard long ago.

-- sparks (wireless@home.com), March 24, 1999

Answers

sparks,

I may not agree with what we are doing over there, but I for one will support our troops while they are there. These people are your brother, neighbor, and friend. They are just doing what they are told. Do I like it.... hell no!

If you don't like where you live, then go somewhere else. Now, where can I purchase you a one-way ticket to?

-- (getoutofhere@now.go), March 24, 1999.

My grandparents died in a concentration camp, and you spout off with"They are just doing what they are told." Fuck you, Nazi.

-- sparks (wireless@home.com), March 24, 1999.

Yes, Sparks, and many Americans said the same thing you are saying before the U.S. entered into WW2. Were we not supposed to do that either?

-- Buddy (buddydc@go.com), March 24, 1999.

Of course we should have gone to war with Germany in WWII, you're comparing apple and oranges, Buddy. Here, WE are the agressor. There is no genocide occuring within Yugoslavia, unlike Germany in the Forties, regardless of what the media says. The Serbs are defending themselves against domestic terrorists much as the Israelis defend themselves against Lebanese terrorists. These Albanian groups were on the U.S. list of known terrorist organizations as recently as a few months ago.

-- sparks (wireless@home.com), March 24, 1999.

Uhhh... in WWII, we were attacked, remember? Pearl Harbor? Otherwise we would have stayed OUT of it. Which is what we should do now.

Neither I nor anyone I know has any clue what this central Europe mess is all about. I don't even know what side we're supposed to be on. People in that part of the world hate each other for reasons we outsiders simply cannot comprehend. It's tragic, but it's not our tragedy. Or at least it shouldn't be.

The worst part is: Apparently we learned NOTHING at all from Viet Nam.

-- nothing to do (with@year.2thousand), March 24, 1999.

Sorry about your grandparents. Really I am. But I support the troops of the U.S. of A. IF it had not been for our troops back then, where would you be today? Ask yourself that question. Don't call me names, and I won't call you names...

-- (getoutofhere@now.go), March 24, 1999.

Blind support is as un-American as no support.

Slick has never made a policy case for this. There may be one, but I'm clueless. Can anyone here enlighten me beyond the usual, that the Slob is evil, which is true enough but not reason by itself. He's got plenty of company around the world.

I suspect this action, like most, is a diversion ... in this case, away from the heat building up around Bill, Hill and Al over the China debacle.

If we are not willing to send ground troops (I'm not), then raining bombs from a distance is cowardly, IMO. This aside from the folly of poking the Russian Bear WITHOUT ANY EVIDENT PLAN behind it.

-- BigDog (BigDog@duffer.com), March 24, 1999.

Hmmm...Clinton protested the Vietnam war, another attempt of the US to "interfere in the affairs of a sovereign state"...but yet he is faulted for that. So looks like he's damned if he does and damned if he dudn't, huh.

-- a (a@a.a), March 24, 1999.

GetOUt, "our troops" had a clear moral purpose for going to war with Germany. There is no such purpose here. What you are proposing is another version of "My Country, Right Or Wrong." The Nazis said that at Nuremberg, with the addition of of "We Were Only Doing What We Were Told." Placing the State in the position of God, which is what you're doing, is an evil and dangerous concept - history proves it so.

-- sparks (wireless@home.com), March 24, 1999.

I do not support our actions there! However I support our people that are over there. Every American supports them via their taxes.

When Clinton does this, why does everyone accuse the troops and cry out at them? It is the Commander-In-Chief that is making this happen, blame him! But this countries sons and daughters are over there and could not come home alive.

Sometimes you people make me sick!

-- (getoutofhere@now.go), March 24, 1999.

getoutofhere -- I agree with your last post: is mine in conflict with yours? I have two sons old enough to go to war and sympathize deeply with other parents whose children fight for us.

Except for "you people make me sick," since agreement to that would be masochistic.

-- BigDog (BigDog@duffer.com), March 24, 1999.

Anybody remember the line from Ben Hur: A Tale of the Christ

The Roman consul said to Ben Hur (exculpating Rome from the wrongful death/imprisonment of his family and servants):

"The Empire is great - and where there is greatness, error is also great."

-- Blue Himalayan (bh@k2.y), March 24, 1999.

I don't support our commander-in-chief either. The point is, every human is morally responsible for his or her individual actions, on the battlefield or not. Our troops might have to make a moral decision that could cost them their life. The guards at the camps faced the same dilemma. Nobody said it was an easy decision... the right decision never is.

-- sparks (wireless@home.com), March 24, 1999.

Our policy towards the Serbs is now culminating into one that stands as a great pinncacle of arrogance and stupidity.

I do not like Slobo or what he has done. But this is not our fight.

I believe that the best "show of support" for our troops and their families is to bring them home and not deploy them in stupid conflicts that are of dubious strategic value.

You may rebut me by saying "Tell that to the ethnic Albanians and to the Bosnians, you jagoff!" Well I have a lot of sympathy for them. But the fact remains that there are dozens of places around the world where we could intervene under the lofty banner of "human rights" but DO NOT or HAVE NOT. Rhwanda, Cambodia, the Kurds' lands, Chechnya, Tibet, Lebannon, etc. Why here?

All I got to say is that this action exemplifies Clinton's cavalier and reckless attidudes about a LOT of things. He may very well be wagging the dog this time. I don't put it past him.

So again, SUPPORT OUR TROOPS! BRING THEM HOME!

-- coprolith (coprolith@rocketship.com), March 24, 1999.

What would your reaction be to this hypothetical newspaper story:

China and it's allies have launched air strikes against Columbian cities in an effort to stop the civil war and bloodshed.

-- PNG (png@gol.com), March 24, 1999.

sparks,

Again, I ask you... where do you want your one-way ticket?

-- (getoutofhere@now.go), March 24, 1999.

PNG -- Well put. I do love the principles on which our country was founded and don't consider them dead, but living overseas taught me that many of our policies are simply, "might makes right." Even Europe often resents and fears us for this: why should be surprised that many actively hate us. In many respects, we have become (we were not always this way) no different than empires of the past.

That's really the point, isn't it? America now fights wars (ooops, police actions) without working through the hard issues of building consensus, invoking the participation and consent of Congress, etc. We are substituting oligarchic rule for representative democracy.

Not so unlike the way we are fixing Y2K ....

-- BigDog (BigDog@duffer.com), March 24, 1999.

When we say that our children are of draft age, we really mean that we have children old enough to be sacrificed upon the altar of war to the god called The State. This is no different than the people of old who sacrificed their children to Moloch, and is a form of idol worship. The ancient Hebrews had a much better system than the draft. Everyone assembled, and if any were married less than a year, they were told to go back to their wives. If any had planted a new vineyard, they were told to go and care for it. Lastly, if any were afraid, they were sent home also. They won a lot of wars that way. Of course, they could call upon Help that we in our weakened moral state cannot hope to access...

-- sparks (wireless@home.com), March 24, 1999.

Wag the Dog -- we saw the movie when it came out. Wasn't it exactly Albanian terrorists that were the target of the fake war? Can it get any weirder? The Albanians look like the victims in today's accounts.

We read a news report that was horrifying about how the Serb police went around killing, raping, looting, maiming Albanian citizens for kicks this week. 250,000 dislocated homeless refugees. What if this is true?

Seems like it would be humane to have a Historical Tribunal research and decide exactly who has what claim to which land, draw up the borders, build the walls, shut up and live life. Not that that sensible practice will ever happen in this monumentally loopy apebrain world.

We support the troops, of course, and hope to see them home very soon. Best support is by prayer for peace and disbanding of war insanity.

xxxxxxxx xxxxxxxx xxxxxxxx xxxxxxxx xxxxxxx

-- Ashton & Leska in Cascadia (allaha@earthlink.net), March 24, 1999.

My fellow Americans,

I support my troops, and wish them no harm. We must impress upon our leaders that there must be an 'end game' here. Our country will not recognize Kosovo as an independent country. So we will go to war for one, two years? What is the point? They will be just put back under control of the mother country when all is said & done.

We refuse to arm Kosovo and insist on throwing them the bone of autonomous providence. Unless our government (& NATO) is willing to recognize them as an independent country & give them membership in NATO not one member of our armed services should needlessly die in a civil war thousands of miles away from home.

In Vietnam at least we had a declared (albeit corrupt) government to defend & we armed and equipped them to fight their own battles (albiet weakly). Our gov. effectively tied our own troops hands behind their backs, and if this is going to happen again, we should not waste our time.

-- Kato (coldwar@notover.com), March 24, 1999.

Nice analogy, PNG. Most Americans don't consider the U.S. an imperialist power, but then they never bother asking the rest of the world what it thinks.

-- sparks (wireless@home.com), March 24, 1999.

Might not be the best place for this, however -

sparks, our "goals" during WWII may not have been so clear cut and so clean. Start with "And the Truth Shall Set You Free" by David Icke for some background you may not be aware of.

-- pshannon (pshannon@inch.com), March 24, 1999.

This whole idea of blindly supporting the troops is a bunch of bullshit.. The reason we have been given as to why we are participating in this new war is ridiculous... The American people have their heads so far up their asses that it is scary... Where are all the public opinion polls now??? Where is the UN mandate??? Have these morons forgotten all lessons of history??? Why are we not going into countries like Congo, Algeria etc where there is a lot more death going on??? don't support Klinton Gore or the troops!!! don't support the dumbass republicans!! don't support any of it because it makes no sense...

-- drdeath (drdeath@death.com), March 24, 1999.

Looks like "our troops" our on the side of Marxist drug-dealers, AKA the terrorist Kosovo Liberation Army. Link to story in the London Times:

wireless@home.com), March 24, 1999.

KLA Story

-- sparks (wireless@home.com), March 24, 1999.

My daughter and I are saying prayers for the innocents on both sides tonight. It's a sad day. It's a sad world.

-- FM (vidprof@aol.com), March 24, 1999.

If I was in the military attacking people that had not provoked me, with my fate ultimately directed by scumbags like Clinton and Albright, my overiding concern would be getting home. Especially when the people I was attacking are "best buddies" with Russia, who could easily eliminate my country at the push of a button.

I would not want the American public "supporting the troops". I would want them screaming for Clintons "head", and to bring the troops home.

Prefering to treat others (military) as I would want to be treated, I say DO NOT support the troops! Call for their return to US soil!

-- Anonymous99 (Anonymous99@Anonymous.com), March 24, 1999.

Good one Sparks. Follow the money. You could have inserted Vietnam in place of Kosovo, BTW, "Get out of here", how are you supporting our troops; thinking nice thoughts? Do you comfort others with patriotic slogans?

-- KoFE (Your@town.USA), March 24, 1999.

Hey all, I usually post as DIEtere but for this ONE and only one post I will step out of character. I meet a lot of people in my day to day life. I cannot say that I have met a SINGLE person who can tell me:

1) why we are there

2) what is going on there

3) what we are trying to accomplish there (Other than Stopping the bloodshed)

Frankly, support the troops has become a catch-all politically correct phrase for Dont rock the boat Yes, those brave young men and women need to feel that they are not out there alone. I support them in that manner. Yes, I support our troops, and what they are doing, but I hate being forced into that position by idiotic foreign policy.

Why are we doing this?

When you look at CENTURIES of mistrust and bloodshed in that area of the world. When you see a country whose people HATE each other with a passion that we cannot imagine. When you see a civil war raging among ethnic groups who have hated each other since the 1300s and before, you have to ask yourself What the hell are we doing, how is our involvement going to help?

When did we as Americans take responsibility for making the whole world fit our idea of what it should be?

Why, if bloodshed is the reason for our involvement, do ignore African nations who do the same as the Serbs? Is it because of race? Albanians are white, Rwandans are not?

How do we gracefully withdraw when we discover that six centuries of mistrust and animosity is impossible to heal?

Why do we support some nations in their quest for an ancient homeland, but deny the Serbs their quest for the very same thing? Because they do not listen to us?

Sorry Billy Bob, your foreign policy has always sucked, and it still does.

EaT Me YoU JACkaSS BAStaRD!!!!

-- I have (beenhere@awhile.com), March 24, 1999.

How am I supporting our troops? Hummmmmm.... let me see.... my taxes pay for the equipment they use. My taxes pay for the fuel they use. My taxes pay for the food they are eating. Need I go on?

My husband may be on the way over there..... is that enough for you? Do you want his blood? Does Bosnia ring any bells with anyone? I support my husband through thick and thin.

-- (getoutofhere@now.go), March 24, 1999.

Think about the implications of what you are saying, getout. Following your statement to its logical conclusion, is it safe to assume that if your husband's assignment was gassing Jews, you'd stand foursquare behind him?

Whether the people being murdered are Jews or Serbs, and whether they are being killed in the name of racism or "peacekeeping", is immaterial. Murder is murder, and the fact that the murderer is wearing a uniform and has "permission" from his betters to perform said act does not excuse it.

-- sparks (wireless@home.com), March 24, 1999.

Send them jock straps

-- Not Again! (seenit@ww2.com), March 24, 1999.

sparks,

Your only problem is that the US didn't step in sooner, so that your grandparents were still alive.

If you were over there and your child was shot and you didn't have a gun, would you not want help?

Again I ask.... where do you want that ticket to?

-- (getoutofhere@now.go), March 24, 1999.

If there's a draft I will hide my only son and will leave this country if I have to. I resent the fact that our leaders believe they are the policemen of the world. My brother, husband and friends were involved in the Viet Nam war. I lost many classmates and friends for a war that proved nothing. However, if our country was on the verge of being invaded, I would fight along side everyone else to protect our freedom.

-- zappa (zappa@zap.com), March 24, 1999.

Are we the official World Leader or not? We keep telling everyone that we are.

It would seem that some would like to play hide 'n seek with our self- appointed title.

-- US (worldleader@large.com), March 24, 1999.

Hey sparks, Do you find it ok to steal other peoples land? Do you find it ok to supress and kill people who ownd it The Jews do just that!! They stole it in the first place thousand years ago and stole it again after WWII. They kill and suppress others. They starf others in the name of God. What a god is that? Just be still old boy Jews have nothing to say here... clean up your mess first. Give the stolen land back to the Arabs.Stop bombing inecent in Lebanon and shoot at kids in Palestine. Once you do that you have a right to point fingers.

Tired

-- tired (tiredofjews@lies.edu), March 24, 1999.

As a participant in our SEAsia War Games of long ago I look at any military intervention with a very skeptical eye. Our govt. is sometimes way too quick to push a "military" solution in some cases and in others not do anything. I do not pretend to understand how others in the world view us, but they must shake their heads sometimes at how we respond to world situations. The mess we're stepping into in the Balkans is a good example. This region of the world has been at each others throats for centuries, where do you think the term Balkanization orginated.

I do not blindly support this administration or it's predecessors, in their decisions of where and how force is applied. The notion that the world must conform to "our idea" of freedom is getting a little out of hand. We cry about freedom of choice for everyone as long as it's our version of freedom. Does anyone else think that this is a little arrogant on our part as a country and people?

I may not want the folks in the military involved in this situation but I will be dammed if I do not fight to make sure they are given a fighting chance to come back in one piece and alive. However I will also raise my voice and make it heard by my "elected officials" that this is not something we should be getting into. How long have the troops that were sent to Bosnia been there? It was only supposed to be 1 year!! Well it's going on 3 now and has cost billions, for what?

I like many others served our time in Hell and I would not wish that on anyone. War IS NOT video games, it's not CNN, it's not high sounding political rehtoric. It's violent, it's deadly, and it is the ultimate end of life for many involved. The politicians who have served should be screaming at the top of their lungs about this. Yet they seem to have forgotten the deadly consequences of being involved in a knock down drag out fight. Statesmen my ass.

rant mode OFF!!

-- Freelancer (mercenary2000@yahoo.com), March 24, 1999.

TO THe idIOT JACkaSS WORLd leADER!!!!!! WHy aRE WE NOT In aLL OTheR COunTRies thEN????? HuH DIcKWEEd???? WhY ARe wE AS THE wOrLd leaDER nOT SEnDING trOOps TO IreLAnD????? ISrAEL????? HuH IDioT???? WhY No tROOPs in rwANdA?????? UGanDA????? INSomNiA????? ANd aLL of tHE OTheR IAs????? PLaY WOrLd POLicemAN WIth yOur giRLfriENDS, LOSER!!!!!! LEavE OuR BOyS OUt of IT!!!!! JACkASS!!!!

-- Dieter (questions@toask.com), March 24, 1999.

Send em cotton balls to rest there fingers on while they are pushing bottons to send misiles from love boat cruise ships. Never mind the colateral damage.

-- Nyet comrade (pong@pang.net), March 24, 1999.

Well, things are obviously quite hot on this thread, so I'll join in and either calm things down or fan the flames.

I've posted this on a couple of other related threads today, but in the interest of masochism if nothing else, I'm posting it on this one too. Maybe there's something relevant here.

A couple of days ago I posted a thread about Dannion Brinkley. (You know--the former alleged nasty CIA guy who died three times and says he saw a whole bunch of the future and now works with dying hospice patients--a lot of them former military?)

Here's an excerpt from an interview he did on Earth Changes Television on November 5, 1998. If this guy's not a fraud, it may be time to grab our ankles. Note the reference to March, 1999:

(Beginning of excerpt)

ECTV -- It has been about a year since I've had Dannion on the show. Dannion came into town and he spoke a lot about hospice work. But, Dannion also touched base again, out of his book `Saved By the Light,' on many of his predictions that are coming true today (and) so current that one of the documents about the Middle East was signed today. Dannion, let's start with that. You spoke with a lot of passion. Not that you don't always but you had a different flavor about you -- especially about the Middle East.

Touch on that for a few minutes.

DB -- Well, Mitch, once it was a prediction. Now it is the present. Here's what is so amazing to me: what is now my past is not the future, but the present. And, as we watch these things come true, we really take a good look. This is the 98th one... [as listed in "Saved by the Light." -- ED.] It means two things. The world is in transition and we must be very, very much aware of it. The fact that I was given these, the last thing I said in `Saved By the Light' is that we have the power to change them. I think the urgency and difference in my lecture now is that we cannot wait, because if the next three are right we're moving into a period of the `One with the Blue Turban,' the Deputy of God, the Great Islamic Power. I know this person. I have seen them. I know who they are. From the time that piece of paper was signed, they will make their move in 120 days from now. [i.e., sometime in early-to-mid March 99? -- Ed.] I will fight that war no more. My job now is the quality of those who have already fought, to embrace change and to understand it.

ECTV -- Dannion, I like the word that you used. U R G E N C Y. That is it! That's what's coming across now, that sense of urgency. Remember what Winston Churchill once said -- `You know, it's funny about you Americans. You seem to be at your best when things are at their worst.' I think there is some real truth to that but it works in a very positive way in bringing us back together in a community, back to our villages, back to our tribes. Do you sense that happening?

DB -- Oh, absolutely! I think it's about ALL spiritual beings, not just Americans. But, Americans have the ability to love, hope, and dream what they wish. We will rebel! The governments don't frighten us or intimidate us. We don't have an old enough history and lineage for it to bother us. We can meet each other, inspire and change, and every two years we throw the bums out. So, this sense of urgency is to become aware of our spiritual identities, because this country is founded on those things and these principles have to be self-evident, and we mark the time and embrace the world as it comes, and be non-warlike, be more loving."

(End of excerpt. Preparing for flameflowers. Access earlier thread for more to flame about. Or---maybe not. . .)

-- just guessin' (idunno@whoknows.com), March 24, 1999.

HORSESH!T ON seERs aND SOOthSAyeRS!!!!! WE ArE BEAtiNG EacH OTHer uP OVER REAL timE NONsenSE!!!!!! NoT MAybE NOnseNSe!!!!!! HYenA!!!!!

-- Dieter (questions@toask.com), March 24, 1999.

dIETER, yOU mUST lEARN TO REALLY sAY wHAT'S oN yOUR mIND! i fIND yoU mUCH TOO sEDATED! iT'S nOT aT aLL gOOD fOR yOUR hEART iF yOU hAVE oNE! :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :)

-- just guessin' (i dunno@whoknows.com), March 24, 1999.

I was wondering when anti-Semitism would make its appearance on this thread... all it usually takes is more than one mention of the Holocaust and they come out of the woodwork. Thanks, Tired, I was beginning to lose my faith in my losing faith in humanity.

-- sparks (wireless@home.com), March 24, 1999.

YeS OL' SPArK OL' sPARKER oL' ChaP!!!! ThE JEw HAtERS ArE A fuNNy buNCh OF LosER HyeNA BUTTPLugS, ARE THey nOt???? oF COurSE THey aRE!!!!!

TYpiCaL JeW HatER RAnT AS foLLowS:

"oH mE HAteS ThEM JeWS, THeY Are inFERIoR. ME HatES ThEM BEcaUSE thEY Am infERIor aND BEcaUSE TheY COntrOL ThE ENtiRE FInaNCIaL SYSteM. ThEY COntrOL The neWS MedIA And And evERYTHiNG. wHY? i doNt knOW, WE whITEys aRE BEttER THan thEY Are, But yET, thEY RULe tHE WorLd."

caN YoU SAy DUH?????

idIOt raCISt jaCKAssES!!!!!

DIEtER faRTS IN YouR GEneRAL dirECTIonS, BIgOtS OF aLL FLavoRs!!!!!

-- Dieter (questions@toask.com), March 24, 1999.

From PNG's site:

American History Lesson: in a Japanese coffee shop

Japanese people love to practice speaking English. All Japanese are required to study English in school, but the lessons are rote memory of grammer and vocabulary. They rarely have an opportunity to actually speak English with a native speaker.

A young Japanese man about 30 was sitting with what seemed to be his American English teacher from a local language school. The Japanese man explained that he didn't know much about America except from subtitled movies and could the teacher give tell him a little about American history and culture. The American answered with a confident "Sure, no problem!"

The history lesson went something like this: "O.K. First, there was the Revolutionary War that began in 1776 and after that we fought the British again in the War of 1812. Then we had the Civil War in the 1860's and the Spanish-American War later."

"We also fought the Indians in the west during the 1800's then we had the First World War in Europe."

The Japanese man was just nodding and listening.

"Let's see, then we had the Great Depression and after that, of course, we had World War Two. Then the Korean War was in the 1950's and the War in Vietnam was from the 60's and lasted for about 10 years."

The Japanese man continued to nod and listen.

"After Vietnam we just had the Cold War with the Soviet Union and China then we had the Gulf War against Iraq, which I guess is still going on, and it looks like we might go into Yugoslavia real soon. I guess that about covers it..."

The American was drinking his coffee and after what seemed to be a full minute of silence, the Japanese man said "That's many wars."

The American just nodded then the Japanese man continued,"What about American culture?"

The American said something like this: "Hmmm. American culture... Let's see...Well... football and basketball are really big."

Note he left out two: 1. War with Hawaii (we won that one) 2. War with Cuba (we lost that one).

-- a (a@a.a), March 24, 1999.

Sparky, Sparky

Antisemitism?

Nah just the simple truth. Read the bible,doesn't mater what version, it will tell you exactly what I said. Read the news any newspaper. Listen to the Israeli armed forces radio station. Every day you hear this. Is it not true that you stole the land from the Arabs? Your bible says so as does ours. Is it not true that after WWII you stole Jerusalem and the arab land from Palistine? Look into your history books. Is it not true that Israely airforce flys daily sorties into Lebanon and at least once or twice a week shoots at civilians there, fires rockets and bombs farmers? Is it not true that Soldiers shoot at palistine children and kill them? Ahh, o yeah those are rubber bullets but they still kill. Ask the mother of those children if they care what type of bullet you used to kill .

Antisemitism?

No just the truth. I don't hate Jews. I just say until you clean up your own mess don't try to tell others what is right or wrong. Don't point fingers and play the victim. Oh poor us we are so misunderstood we where gased in germany and killed by the millions in Russia.Thats the past snap out of it you can not change it. You could though try to prevent the same from happen again But to do this you have to face your own wrongs first. How about look around and open your eyes to the wrong done by your people BEFORE you point fingers and judge others.

Tired

-- tired (tiredof jewslies@tired.edu), March 24, 1999.

YEs yOU ARE MosT TIRed!!!!! BEinG A JaCKASS IS VEry TAXinG, IS it noT???? idIOT!!!!!

oH WELL, SiX MiLL DOWN beCAuSE OF THe geRMaNS, WhO KnOWS How maNY In RUssIA, BuT i'll GeT OvER ThAT!!!!!! A miLLiON HErE, A MiLLioN THeRE, PRettY SOoN YoU ARE TalKING ABouT REaL PEoplE, ArE YoU NoT, INFiDEL JAckASSeD PLugGeR OF HoLES??????

-- Dieter (questions@toask.com), March 25, 1999.

MAYBE some LIGHT???

[Please stay with this to the end, you may be surprised where it actually goes]

There were only two reasons for the action with any legitimacy at all, and one is quite weak in that area.

1) The geography that the "World Powers" threw a set of borders around and called the "nation" of Yugoslavia has been known as the "Powder Keg of Europe " for the last 125 years. For several centuries prior, it has been among the most contested land in the Western World (OK I'm stretching the definition, get over it), excluding what the Brit's called Palestine in 194?. The province of Kosovo has been known as the "tinder box" for equally long. This is where the spark (small, I know) was struck that became the raging inferno of the War to End All Wars.

I feel it would be wholly apropriate to toss a couple gallons of water into the keg of black powder, and spray the tinder with a lot of rain, efectively wetting the powder. Always assuming that the course we have chosen will do this.

2) the other jstification, which is terribly weak, is that of having made a series of threats, and drawn a line (well, we seem to have drawn a lot of them on this one), now we must actually DO something. I don't like this argument a bit but it has a litle merit. The only question I have is how many "really's" does it take before the other guys can say "Yup, this time fer sure"? (like "We really, really, really mean it this time.") As my mom used to say, don't say it unless you mean it, and don't mean it unless you are going to do it.

Having said this, I have got to wonder if Billy isn't trying to play a 1999 version of the game of Diplomacy (tm) (Parker) where the winner needs to be situated in the region. the real question is how far can the FSU be pushed (?) and does Billy understand what he has his hands on? You can ride a Tiger by the tail as it has difficulty getting back to you, but a bear can scratch HIS tail and you go flying.

I also wonder if Billy truly understands what the signals are that are coming out of the FSU. When your envoy turns the f'ing plane around half way to see you, it is more than just a fit of pique. These guys can stand in front of you and smile, while you are toasting their more sensitive parts with a blowtorch because it's not personal and eventually you will receive your props. turning the plane around is an indication that ther will be NO MORE FRIENDLY TALK, here or in Moscow. This is as much a declaration of extreme hostilty as the removal of FSU oficers in NATO, which is the second huge signal.

I REALLY hope LOOKINGGLASS is flying. I fear we may need her.

Chuck, who is opening up the Demo City Derby Pool. Pony up a cyber dollar or your life, and pick from one of the 120. I'm putting my dollar on Omaha (It's so much better to sh*t in your opponent's gun locker!), and hoping that I'm not betting my LIFE on Cleveburgh. (Though if it IS Cleveburgh, I will have NO KNOWN problem, as I live just down the street from one of the bigest torpedo dev. barns in Christendom)

-- Chuck, a night driver (reinzoo@en.com), March 25, 1999.

Dieter is the most rational here...both in and out of character.

2,000 people have died in the Balkans in the last year from the ethnic civil war.

2,000,000 people have died in Sudan over the last few years from civil war and starvation caused by the fighting.

People of all nations fear for their soldier-children who face searingly painful, grotesque, horrifying deaths and dismemberment - the end of their world.

The Serbian men that viciously murder and rape, do so because they have nothing to live for except revenge. Revenge against the families of Croatian men that murdered and raped their families. This has been going back and forth for generations. Generations of revenge.

Do not underestimate the ethnic bond between Russians and Serbs. It is not a superficial, transient bond of political ideology. It is a bond of blood that knows no geo-political borders. NATO is poking at a tired, wounded yet powerful bear. A bear that is searching for a cause to restore it's spirit and glory. A proud bear that has been reduced to a pitiful and broken prowler for scraps after cutting itself into pieces in the quest for the bounty of capitalism and freedom.

Both Mr. Clinton and Mr. Blair, popular media personalities, are poking at a dying bear of a man who had part of one hand torn away by a grenade fighting for his people. The other hand restrains proud, broken Generals of unpaid armies and massive weapons that were once feared by the world. Desperate people do desperate things.

I don't trust the judgement of any of the players in this game. Mr. Clinton and Mr. Blair should call a time out and see if they can work their personal charm on Mr. Yeltsin to have him broker a deal in the Balkans. Let the dying bear have some of the limelight they constantly seek. The serbs will listen to him. The solution may not be perfect, but I believe less people will die in the final tally.

But that would require statesmanship on the part of Mr. Clinton and Mr. Blair. A quality these two politicians have yet to reveal they possess.

-- PNG (png@gol.com), March 25, 1999.

PNG, you are right. We saw pictures of Yeltsin today, and as hospice caregivers we were startled to see the first signs of death on him. He looks like he does not have long left in this world. If he passed over now, that would complicate things. We pray this whole thing stops and everybody comes to their senses. Yeltsin should be resting and spending soothing time outdoors in a good climate. He is suffering physically.

xxxxxxx xxxxxxx xxx

-- Ashton & Leska in Cascadia (allaha@earthlink.net), March 25, 1999.

Ashton and Leska,

I doubt not your experience. What were those first signs of death?

-- FM (vidprof@aol.com), March 25, 1999.

Difficult to describe exactly in words. Of course we, like everybody else, have regularly seen many pictures. Today's was different. His posture, his color, his hands, but especially the aura around his head and on his face. The mark of death. This man is exhausted and his heart is not working properly. The first signs of upcoming transition are very noticeable once one has seen them up close several times, but difficult to translate into words. Both Ashton & I were watching the news, and the minute Yeltsin's picture come on, we both spontaneously said "Uh oh" and "Do you see that?"

He looks like, with rest, no stress, gentle exercise (short walks in sun in beautiful warm park), very easily-digestible diet, actually a vegetarian almost-liquid diet, etc. that he could buy some time. But still, the look was unmistakable. Not often that particular look is reversed long-term.

From our experience, we would say, if he continues as is, 5 months on the outside.

xxxxxxx xxxxxxx xxxxx

-- Leska (allaha@earthlink.net), March 25, 1999.

"I was wondering when anti-Semitism would make its appearance on this thread... "

Why should this thread be any different? People have been pissed at the Jews for at least 2000 years. Probably longer. Oddly enough, the Jews would have pretty much died-out without Christian monks preserving their Tora (Old Testiment to Christians). In just the last few hundred, Jews have been kicked out of numerous countries. It seems like any time you get a lot of Jews, they start causing problems again (self-serving "takeover" of the "host" country).

I guess the US is stricken with so many, because Jews were kicked out of Spain the same year that Columbus "discovered" America. Guess they have always been in US. Bummer.

It seems to me that given the evidence of history, either Jews are a pain-in-the-ass, or "God has selected them as chosen people, and has a special plan for them".

Personally, I think Jews are a pain-in-the-ass. I give you the Clinton Administration (mostly Jews) as today's evidence. I give you history as yesterday's. As for "God's plan", that pre-supposes a monotheistic God, a belief shared only by Judaism/Christianity/Islam.

Of course, if you wish to believe that Hitler was some sort of Pagan devil worshiper of pure evil who sought to kill the poor kindly Jews, I doubt that you will agree...

-- FedUp (FedUp@VR.com), March 25, 1999.

Just when you think it can't get any more offensive... Tired and FedUp, should I just report to the camp, or will someone be coming for me?

Morons.

-- sparks (wireless@home.com), March 25, 1999.

Chuck,

Yes.... LOOKINGGLASS is in the air. They always are nowadays.

-- (someone@looking.on), March 25, 1999.

Don't forget the delicious irony of Baal Clinton defending the rights to autonomy of the ethnic Albanians, something he and his Federal Court system/Justice Dept. would NEVER dream of doing here in the U.S. The Tenth Amendment is dead as a doornail (thanks to the misuses of the Commerce Clause), and when American towns want to, say, control their own schools, they get crushed by the Federal judiciary. Or when a state legislature, acting as a representative body, bans partial birth abortion, it gets tossed out by the Federal judiciary. Yet Baal told us last night that the Kosovars deserve the right to have their own schools, run their own lives...stuff that's simply NOT allowed in the United States of Amerigo Vespucci.

-- Spidey (in@jam.com), March 25, 1999.

Sparks and Dieter, I respect you both a lot from your posts (I read Dieter before he went "over the edge"), but on this I agree with Tired. I am not anti-Jews at all, I have many Jewish friends and a family member who converted and married a Jew, and I get along well and respect them all. I even celebrate jewish holidays with them.

What I see Tired is trying to say is that we ALL should look at our own wrong doings before pointing fingers.

A million Catholics were slaughtered in the Holocaust, but we rarely if ever hear that mentioned in the media and history books. Hitler slaughtered anyone not fitting his ideal image of the Arian race.

I agree completely with Dieter in his post as "I Have Been Here". Sending troups to Kosovo is akin to sending troups to Ireland. The hatred between the Serbs and Albanians is learned at birth, in their blood and culture, going on for centuries, as in Ireland. Now Clinton has angered Russia who is pulling out of NATO. The American people have indeed their heads way up their behinds, and those who don't are afraid to rock the boat or say anything not PC. This could be the signal that WWIII is on it's way, and people on this forum are acusing each other of bigotry and spew old hatred flames at each other. Sparks and Dieter, your knee-jerk defensiveness when any critisism, no matter how constructive, is said about Jews is typical of the problem with Political Correctness in this country. The Holocaust was an unspeakable tragedy, but without forgetting it's history, Jews must get over it and stop viewing everyone who attempts to constructively critisize them as they would any other race, as anti-semitic or Nazis.

-- Longtime Lurker (lurking@here.com), March 25, 1999.

Someone@lookingup:: When did they change the policy back re LOOKINGGLASS?? They had put it on the ground and started to rotate the flights randomly through a oh, 48 hour period, or so I understood, about this time last year.

Or so the published stories ran.

Chuck, caught believing published accounts again.

-- Chuck, a night driver (reinzoo@en.com), March 25, 1999.

Chuck, hope your e-mail address is real. Be on the lookout.

-- (someone@looking.on), March 25, 1999.

Longtime Lurker, thanks for your comments. What I take the most offense at in Tired's posting was his assumption that I'm an Israeli, instead of the American I am and will always be, first and foremost. I do not believe in dual citizenship, and unlike many Jews, I do not take an "Israel-first" stand on foreign policy.

As for Jews being sensitive about the Holocaust, well, I only wish that Catholics, Protestants, Gypsies, handicapped and homosexuals, all groups who had members in the camps, had such a "knee-jerk" reaction to it... Jews just seem to have a stronger sense of self-preservation. While we're on the subject of genocide, let's not forget the 30 million Christians killed by Stalin in the 30's, or the slaughter of millions of Armenians killed by the Turks earlier in the century. As long as people gloss over and trivialize such horrific episodes by writing it off as ancient history, we will be doomed to repeat performances.

-- sparks (wireless@home.com), March 25, 1999.

It HAS been a fun century, hasn't it?

-- Spidey (in@jam.com), March 25, 1999.

IT AinT JUst diETer wHo maKEs GOoD seNSe

-- Dieter (questions@toask.com), March 25, 1999.

Infowarfare?

http://www.excite.com/computers_and_internet/tech_news/zdnet/?article= zdnews2.inp

'Infowarfare' part of NATO arsenal?

By Maria Seminerio

03/25/99 06:30:00 PM

How lessons learned from hackers are playing part in strikes against Yugolslavia.

The barrage of cruise missiles raining down on Yugoslavia in the ongoing NATO offensive is only the most visible element of the campaign. Behind the scenes, military technologists are using 'infowar' tactics borrowed from hackers to disrupt the Serbian telecommunications infrastructure.

While infowar can describe everything from cracking into a military computer network to disabling an enemy nation's telephone system, in the case of the Serbian conflict, NATO's efforts are likely to be targeted more at radar transmissions than at Web-connected computers, according to military experts.

That's because Yugoslavia has little in the way of an Internet infrastructure, and its military isn't likely to be using the Web to communicate.

"The question is, how dependent is your adversary on the Net, and my sense here is, not a lot," said Hal Gershanoff, publisher and editor of the Journal of Electronic Defense in Norwood, Mass.

"This is groundwork that was laid months ago," he said. "The places they are going to bomb have to be mapped out."

One self-described hacker agreed.

"I don't think Serbia has enough of a computer network to target," said the author of the 1998 book "Maximum Security: A Hacker's Guide to Protecting your Internet Site or Network." The hacker, who published the book as "Anonymous," said NATO is certainly "jamming a lot of radio transmissions."

A spokesperson for the Pentagon refused to comment on the NATO strategy, saying such tactics are top-secret during a continuing conflict.

Preparing for the big push?

Infowarfare tactics are critical to reconnaissance prior to a bombing attack, said Mark Fabro, worldwide director of assessment services at Secure Computing Corp.

"You need to be able to extract certain elements of information to disrupt radio frequencies or telephone service," said Fabro, who has served as a remote server security consultant to the Pentagon.

The process of mapping out those locations is a combination of old- fashioned military reconnaissance and high-tech hacking. NATO forces need to find out where Serbian munitions are stored -- which could be as simple as getting tips from locals about military vehicle traffic -- but they also need to target "IT-dependent sites," said Frank Cilluffo, director of the information warfare task force at the Center for Strategic & International Studies, a military think tank in Washington, D.C.

"We'll go after command and control sites, but strictly through munitions," said Cilluffo. He said he does not believe NATO would specifically target the Serbian IT infrastructure, such as it is, because such an action would open NATO nations up to cyber counter- attacks.

"We have lots more to lose than they do if we go that route," he said. "Then we expose our own IT infrastructure."

-- (nope@sorry.org), March 25, 1999.

Sparks you said "What I take the most offense at in Tired's posting was his assumption that I'm an Israeli, instead of the American I am..."

I can understand that. The strong emotional responses and flames though is not constructive toward mutual understanding between race and/or religious affiliations. And I agree with the rest of your reply.

-- Longtime Lurker (lurking@here.com), March 25, 1999.

"As for Jews being sensitive about the Holocaust, well, I only wish that Catholics, Protestants, Gypsies, handicapped and homosexuals, all groups who had members in the camps, had such a "knee-jerk" reaction to it... Jews just seem to have a stronger sense of self-preservation."

Amen.

-- FedUp (FedUp@FedUp.com), March 26, 1999.

Good catch on InfoWars, nope. Hhmmmm. Don't mess with the Internet! We're busy having our own info wars ;-D
Obviously with our own .milk disruptive "guests" ...

xxxxxxx xxxxxxx xxxxxxx

-- Leska (allaha@earthlink.net), March 26, 1999.

Regarding infowar, wouldn't sometime around 010100 be a good time to start a war??? Something about "catching you with your pants down" (Clinton???)

I feel there will be repercussions to the "police-action" in Yugoslavia. The bear is old and tired, but a force to be reckoned with. The Yugoslavs were under the control of the former U.S.S.R for over 40 years. I am sure there are still friends in high places over there.

Can you say Vietnam? Korea? I thought you could.

"There seems to be a particular "glow" over D.C. today, or was it a flash?"

All racial slurring bigots are idiots, Dieter. There minds are so narrow they can stick their heads under a door to see who is on the other side.

Our government is hiding something (DUH!) that they do not want us to see or discover. Will we be going to "permanent martial law" in the future for "Herr Klinton"? Possibilities... Unless they piss the bear off first, and the U.S. gains some glass parking lots...

Its all fucked up, everywhere you look. Y2K might just be the catalyst that sets it all off...

Got sense?

Got thought?

Got a clue????

The Dog

-- Dog (desert dog @sand.com), March 29, 1999.