What do you think of todays world events?

greenspun.com : LUSENET : TimeBomb 2000 (Y2000) : One Thread

The stock market is down considerably, the Japanese military is on a state of alert it hasn't been on since WW2 because of two unidentifiedships earlier today, and the Russians were caught supposedly trying to smuggle 6 MiG jets and 30 pilots into Yugoslavia. Any ideas?

-- Nate Davos (nate@stupidfresh.net), March 23, 1999


Sounds more serious than Y2K. Could this be TEOTWAWKI?

-- ScreamingYellowZonkers (ScreamingYellowZonkers@Scream.com), March 23, 1999.

I think we live in "interesting times". Hadn't heard about the migs. If true, wonder what that'll do for our relationship after we flame a couple of theirs, or they flame a couple of ours.

Jolly is glad he's out of the Navy.

-- Jollyprez (jolly@prez.com), March 23, 1999.

It scares me.

-- Linda A. (adahi@muhlon.com), March 23, 1999.


-- Watchful (seethesea@msn.com), March 23, 1999.

From CNN:

"Meanwhile, Russian Foreign Minister Yevgeny Primakov called off a visit to the United States on Tuesday, his plane literally turning around over the Atlantic Ocean, after he was briefed by Vice President Al Gore on the growing likelihood of military action, which Russia opposes. "

-- a (a@a.a), March 23, 1999.

What is the strategic importance of Kosovo???? Y2K "get the media on the topic" government trickery

-- PJC (paulchri@msn.comc), March 23, 1999.

Look near bottom of thread

~7~ It's Officially Crept Up To 7 Days

-- lurks (there@sim.too), March 23, 1999.

"he Japanese military is on a state of alert it hasn't been on since WW2 because of two unidentifiedships earlier today

I would like to request a link to any posted article that has this information. I don't locate it on any news source yet...

Mr. K

-- Mr. Kennedy (where@please.sir/madam), March 23, 1999.

Japan fires warning shots at unidentified ships

-- h (h@h.h), March 23, 1999.

Thanks for the link h.

Mr. K
***wondering why they didn't send helicopters? Don't have any?***

-- Mr. K (here@home.com), March 23, 1999.

NATO has ordered airstrikes. Horrible events taking place now. The murderers we will bomb are very bad people. articles

http://www.tampa bayonline.net/news/apbreak.htm <

-- h (h@h.h), March 23, 1999.

...and gas prices are moving up. Interesting how everything seems to be happening at the same time.

-- Tim (pixmo@pixelquest.com), March 23, 1999.

War Preparations Continue in Russia

All around the globe, a pattern of belligerence toward the United States and her allies is emerging: from the Korean peninsula down through the Spratly Islands near the Philippines, enveloping Taiwan, then reappearing in Central Asia, the Middle East, and the Balkans.

The rhetoric from Beijing, Moscow, Belgrade, Pyongyang, and Baghdad suggests possible coordination. Forward military deployments by China, Iraq, Serbia, and Russia, together with sinister construction projects and major troop movements, have been noted in East Asia, the Pacific, and the Middle East.

In the past month, numerous developments have taken place in Russia that suggest war preparations:


In January, the Russian General Staff announced that all of the countrys nuclear forces -- Strategic Rocket Forces, submarine-based weaponry, and nukes on their strategic bombers -- would now be placed under one command.

ANALYSIS: This development was widely reported in Russia and by the Associated Press. The AP story indicated bafflement that Russia, in the middle of economic problems, would be reorganizing its armed forces, especially the nuclear forces. But this development fits the thesis that Russia is, in fact, preparing for war.

In war, the principle of "unity of command is considered crucial. By moving to unify nuclear command, the Russian armed forces can now better coordinate a nuclear surprise attack involving all nuclear service branches, obviating the friction of interservice rivalry. In a strictly defensive situation, centralization of the nuclear forces is unnecessary, even counterproductive. Decentralization is better for defense.

However, this is not true for attack. Coordinating an effective, disarming first strike requires a high degree of control and coordination, which a unified nuclear command facilitates. This move, coupled with the fact Russia has been moving its strategic warheads onto submarines in the past six months, should be viewed with alarm.


In the second half of January, the commander of Russias Strategic Rocket Forces, Col.-Gen. Vladimir Yakovlev, resigned his post together with his three chief deputies, allegedly throwing Russias nuclear forces into disarray.

After taking this unprecedented action, Yakovlev stated that the reason for his resignation was a personality conflict with Gen. Sokolov, the commander of Russias early-warning service.

ANALYSIS: According to Col. Stanislav Lunev, ranking defector from the Main Intelligence Directorate of the Russian General Staff, Yakovlevs retirement was planned some time ago.

"They already have civilian jobs waiting for them, Lunev said. "There will be no disruption of the rocket forces.

Lunev believes the resignations stem from the reorganization of Russias nuclear forces under a single chief, but he nonetheless admits that Yakovlev and his deputies are hard-liners and careerists. After closer analysis, it is difficult to argue that they would resign in protest over a measure they themselves long advocated, as they were supporters and proteges of Defense Minister Igor Sergeyev, the man most responsible for the reorganization of the nuclear forces.

There are serious inconsistencies here that must not be passed over. Why did Yakovlev and his deputies resign? Has a secret nuclear command center been established? A centralized nuclear command would have to create alternate command posts in several bunkers, with many capable general officers at the ready.

Were these resignations made in protest over the reorganization of Russias nuclear forces, or were they part of the reorganization itself?


When President Clinton bombed Iraq in December, Moscow put its Northern Fleet on alert. This curious move, which makes no sense in terms of reacting to a Middle East crisis, and coming at a supposed time of reduced superpower tensions, has serious implications that ought to be explored.

ANALYSIS: Prior to a surprise nuclear attack on the United States, it is believed the Russians would attempt to put most of their nuclear missile submarines to sea. Therefore, the question that must be asked is whether the Russians used the alert to deploy their missile submarine forces. Despite what some analysts might say, any large-scale deployment to sea is a red flag.

The Northern Fleet contains the lions share of Russias naval strike capability, and any alerting of that fleet needs to be carefully scrutinized. In fact, any Russian fleet alert should be answered by a comparable U.S. fleet alert. It is alarming in and of itself that the United States did not respond in kind.


The Russians have abandoned the agreement to forgo underground nuclear tests. They have admitted to testing three tactical nuclear warheads in recent weeks. These are part of a new generation of tactical nuclear weapons that the Russian armed forces have developed.

In addition, during the period of the agreed suspension of underground tests, there have been suspicious earthquakes in Russia with signatures characteristic of strategic nuclear tests.

ANALYSIS: Nuclear readiness requires the occasional testing of nuclear warheads. New, more efficient weapons must be tested before they are deployed to the armed forces. The United States has not tested its nuclear stockpile in several years, while the Russians have been testing their weapons.

The importance of tactical nuclear weapons to the Russians lies in the fact that these cannot be kept track of by arms control specialists. The START agreements require Russia to destroy the bulk of its strategic nuclear stockpiles, which cannot be hidden.

But tactical nuclear weapons have a number of advantages over strategic ones. First and foremost, they are more efficient in terms of their use of nuclear fuel. Also, tactical nuclear weapons can be packed into ICBMs, bombers, fighter-bombers, or artillery units, making them the most versatile type of nuclear weapon.

Last, but not least, tactical nuclear weapons can be delivered as a cluster, which is a more effective means for destroying large urban areas, and obviates the terms of the START treaties, which call for the elimination of multiple independently targeted re-entry vehicles (MIRVs).


The chief of the Russian General Staff, Anatoly Kvashin, a hardened professional known for his stony silence, now claims that Russia has halved its western military deployments, reducing its strike capability near Finland. On Jan. 11, Kvashin stated: "We have extremely low defense readiness.

ANALYSIS: These are curious words from an ordinarily obsessive, secretive, and paranoid functionary. Such a pronouncement is uncharacteristic and probably deceptive. Throughout history, when Russian forces have been weak or unready, no Russian general officer would dare to acknowledge the fact. Such acknowledgment, under normal conditions, would lead to immediate dismissal.

Russian military doctrine pays close attention to the dictum of Sun Tzu, the ancient Chinese strategist, who said: "All warfare is based on deception. Hence, when able to attack, we must seem unable; when using our forces, we must seem inactive; when we are near, we must make the enemy believe we are away. ... Hold out baits to entice the enemy. Feign disorder, and crush him.

If Russia is really moving troops off its border with Europe, as well as troops away from its Chinese border, where are the troops being relocated?


Russia and Belarus have large collective farms dedicated to the breeding of polar foxes and minks. Russia is the worlds largest fur consumer, annually buying 40 percent of the furs produced worldwide. But now, Russian officials claim that demand has stalled, and they are slaughtering their fox and mink herds because they cannot afford to feed them.

Slaughter is normal at the onset of winter, of course, but this slaughter is of unprecedented numbers of animals. At the same time, Russia is importing fur from China, as well as coats, jackets, and boots. If Russian demand has stalled and the market for furs is flooded, why the imports?

ANALYSIS: Wherever we see an inconsistency in Russias economy, we have to think twice. In World War II, Russian spies infiltrated all of the sheep ranches in Europe. Their mission: to watch and see if sheep were being sheared for 5 million sheepskin coats. Soviet military intelligence reasoned that if Hitler intended to invade Russia, he would need heavy winter clothing for his troops. The shearing of the sheep would be a dead giveaway.

Unfortunately for Hitler, he did not make the 5 million coats. And though he caught Soviet military intelligence off guard, his troops in Russia suffered frostbite and amputations once winter began. In fact, one of the medals struck for German soldiers during 1941-42 was called "The Order of the Frozen Meat.

Logistical preparations are a necessary part of war. National leaders ignore such preparations at great peril. In this context, what are we to make of this huge increase in the production and importation of furs and uniform clothing in Russia?

While this activity could indicate Russian economic miscalculation, one has to wonder why the fur herds were increased to such a size to begin with. Since these fur farms are state-controlled, an increase in production suggests an increase in projected consumption. But as civilian consumption has remained steady, the obvious conclusion is that somebody in Moscow was anticipating a huge increase in the militarys demand for winter clothing. With the aforesaid cover story of a collapsed market, Moscow might well mask a planned troop mobilization of very large dimensions. If Russia called up her reserves either before or after a nuclear exchange, she would need winter coats, boots, and headgear (even if the attack took place in warm weather).

Russias soldiers may have to confront winter weather conditions in North America if Russian military doctrine is followed. This doctrine calls for an invasion of America. Always cognizant of history, the Russian General Staff is well aware of Hitlers mistake in World War II and would never repeat that mistake in World War III.

As Russia openly makes moves for war, its new partner, China, has been taking equally dramatic steps. Coming Wednesday: Part 2 -- Chinese Premier Calls For Nuclear War Preparations.

America better wake up. Russia and China plan to make y2k a nonevent.

-- BB (peace2u@bellatlantic.net), March 23, 1999.

Not really Y2K related, but interesting nevertheless.

Clinton was doing a press conference last Friday when someone from Fox news blindsided him:

"Mr. President, you said just a short while ago that no one has reported to you they suspect Chinese espionage at U.S. nuclear labs during your administration, sir. But sources tell Fox News, and we are reporting this evening that China stole the technology for electromagnetic pulse weapons from several nuclear labs during your first term in office, sir, and that the Chinese have successfully tested these weapons in China. And the sources also say that the administration at least was aware of this. Can you tell us, sir, were you not personally aware? Are you concerned about this? And what will be your administration's response to the report?"

Now watch carefully Clinton's response: "Well, you didn't say what the source of what they sold was."

Did you catch that? What they "sold"! Whether it was a Freudian slip or a simple gaffe, Clinton's assumption was that EMP weapons were sold! He quickly corrected himself, sort of. "You say they 'stole'—is that the word you used?" He went on to say he knew nothing about the report, but would look into it. Much of the press conference was spent by Clinton defending his China policies.

Just more evidence that Clinton has "SOLD" us down the river. I expect computers not working might be the least of our troubles in the next few years... are we ready for Cold War part 2?

You can read the entire article at www.worldnetdaily.com. It is Joseph Farah's "Between the Lines" commentary.

-- Jenny (noSnart@GI.com), March 23, 1999.


-- (FoxyLoxy@DontGetIgnorant.com), March 23, 1999.

We should all be alarmed by reports of Russian troops training in Fort Dix, New Jersey, Alaska, Beaumont, Texas . It's time to get busy. This Kosovo adventure is smoke and mirrors.

-- KoFE (your@town.USA), March 23, 1999.

And the Vice President of Paraguay was assassinated.

Man, what a hell of a news day!

-- pshannon (pshannon@inch.com), March 23, 1999.

Japan says North Korean Plane Headed for Rogue Ships

http://dailynews.yahoo.com/headlines/wl/story.html?s=v/nm/19990323/wl/ japanships_5.html

What the heck is going on over there?

-- FM (vidprof@aol.com), March 23, 1999.

Meanwhile, Monica rises to new heights.

-- Faze the Nation (dazed@confused.com), March 23, 1999.

I think Japan will side with US.

Sorry about the brevity of words...I failed to pay my syn-tax!

We win! Talk all day! We WIN!!! Won't be pretty though!

God Bless America!

-- Mark Hillyard (foster@inreach.com), March 23, 1999.

If it is true, this is pretty scary stuff. We must remember that World War I began it the Balkans.

-- Incredulous (ytt000@aol.com), March 23, 1999.

The dominoes are set. All it takes is one to set them all falling.

Polls don't matter, 401k's don't matter, approval ratings don't matter. Your feelings and opinions don't matter.

This world is a bigger powder keg now than before both world wars COMBINED.

When asked when the end of the age would come, Jesus said:

"...And you will hear of wars and rumours of wars, be not troubled; for this must take place, but the end is not yet. For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom.....all this is just the beginning of the birth-pangs......For then there will be great tribulation such as the world has never seen since the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be again." Mathew 24: 6-8 & 21

This is just the beginning folks. We haven't seen anything YET. Milne might yet prove to be a pollyanna.

..."for if those days were not shortened, no flesh on earth would be saved alive."

-- INVAR (gundark@aol.com), March 23, 1999.

Uh-Oh! This doesn't sound too comfy. Headlines on Drudge:

[ For Educational Purposes Only ]




In a development that could turn spring back to winter, Moscow will immediately supply powerful armaments to Belgrade and the Serbs and provide other military assistance if NATO makes air strikes against Yugoslavia, Speaker of Russia's State Duma lower house of parliament Gennady Seleznyov told the ITAR-TASS news wire late on Tuesday.

The development comes as Secretary of State Madame Albright declares: "There will be order in Yugoslavia."

Russian Foreign Minister Igor Ivanov said late Tuesday that Moscow has prepared options if the Kosovo situation takes a turn for the worse.

"If NATO opts for the use of force in Kosovo, it would violate international law, the UN Charter and will actually become undisguised aggression," he said

"In that case, NATO will naturally show its true colors with which it intends to enter the 21st century," warned the minister.


"Use it or Lose it" policy? Not a slow news day, this. La tee da, maybe w'all won't have to wait it out sweating til 2000 ....

xxxxxxx xxxxxxx xxxxxxx xxxxxxx xxxxxx

-- Ashton & Leska in Cascadia (allaha@earthlink.net), March 23, 1999.

Just thinking but one circumstance that could cause mobilization of government, industry, etc. in a coherent and common direction is war. Of course, that is true for all nations.

This is way too strange. The future unfolding right now could make Y2k look like just a "bump in the road" after all.

Mike ================================================================

-- Michael Taylor (mtdesign3@aol.com), March 24, 1999.

The polls say that the American people are against this war. The polls a month ago said the American people loved Clinton. We got what we deserved. Nothing good lasts forever, stock market drops, gas prices rise, war within 24 hours, and we allowed this jerk to remain in office. Don't complain now people about the state of affairs we are in, we allowed it to happen, and I didn't even vote for the jerk! At least we should be thankful that we were smart enough to store food away. This changes my plans somewhat, consumable goods will be in bigger demand and I plan to stock up even more on goods such as tea, coffee, and sugar. If you need tires for your vehicle, better get them now and keep your gas tanks filled, I see gas rationing down the road. JMHO

-- bardou (bardou@baloney.com), March 24, 1999.


I respect your opinion but I think you're missing something very valuable about this circumstance that wasn't there in any other recent action. NATO. Perhaps NATO is an alliance which is past it's prime but it is still an alliance which has been responsible for keeping a relative peace in Europe for decades. NATO is a strategic alliance who's trump card is force. If the alliance loses it's ability now to use force when faced with such circumstances then we are living in dire, dire times.

Not everything bad in this world occurs because of one man's inability to keep his privates in his pants or his desire to keep his affairs private.

Sometimes things happen in this world because one man stands against the rule of basic human rights and rejects the concept that all people are created equal.

Unfortunately, this time and this action are not nearly as simple or straight forward as any action taken against Iraq.

Mike =======================================================

-- Michael Taylor (mtdesign3@aol.com), March 24, 1999.

Michael, It looks like I'm getting ready to learn a lot about NATO, but I thought NATO was conceived as a defensive alliance against Moscow. Interceding in a Yugoslavian civil war is not exactly the mission NATO was originally designed for. Russia's economy may be a total joke, but its military never has been and never will be something to ignore. Desert Shield/Storm was checkers; this is chess.

-- Puddintame (dit@dot.com), March 24, 1999.

Um, any of you looked at Drudge recently? Uh, it's getting WORSE!

This is a real showdown. Please click over to Drudge to see.


[ For Educational Purposes Only ]

[ Drudge page changes constantly ]

Russia's Defense and Foreign Ministries have been working on options to act, in connection with possible NATO strikes against Yugoslavia...

All actions by the Defense Ministry will be aimed at increasing the combat readiness of Russia's armed forces.
According to the information available to ITAR-TASS newswire on Wednesday morning, in case the situation takes an unfavorable turn for Russia, the Ministry is preparing proposals on possible deployment of tactical nuclear weapons on the territory of Byelorussia.
Military officials are seriously considering the possibility of Russia's withdrawal from earlier agreements within the framework of the Russian-US commission as regards Russian arms supplies to Iran.
Russia may order its peacekeepers in Bosnia and Herzegovina "not to take orders from NATO generals and only obey instructions from the Russian General Staff"... DEVELOPING HOT...





Overnight on Tuesday, Russia's Defense and Foreign Ministries have been working on options to act in connection with possible NATO strikes against Yugoslavia.

An ITAR-TASS newswire correspondent said windows of the Foreign and Defense Ministries buildings were lit throughout Tuesday night and that the ministers were on hand at their offices.

Defense Minister Igor Sergeyev has told reporters that all actions by the Defense Ministry will be aimed at increasing the combat readiness of Russia's armed forces.

According to the information available to TASS, in case the situation takes an unfavorable turn for Russia, the Ministry is "preparing proposals on possible deployment of tactical nuclear weapons on the territory of Byelorussia."

The DRUDGE REPORT issued a bulletin Tuesday evening reporting that Moscow is set to provide military help to Belgrade and the Serbs if NATO strikes.

Russia is set to order its peacekeepers in Bosnia and Herzegovina not to take orders from NATO generals and only obey instructions from the Russian General Staff.

Most information flowing into the United States concerning Russia's threats is only available through the ITAR-TASS newswire. ITAR/TASS News Agency is the official state news agency for Russia. ITAR-TASS has 74 bureaus in Russia and the other CIS countries...

Russia will demand an emergency meeting of the UN Security Council immediately after NATO makes air strikes against Yugoslavia...
NATO OKs Yugoslavia Airstrikes...
Yugoslav government sees imminent war...
URGENT -- Primakov stops visit by instruction of Yeltsin...
U-TURN: Russian premier Primakov cancels trip to Washington...

REPORT: RUSSIA SMUGGLING IN WEAPONS? Azerbaijan seized a Russian cargo plane [Tuesday] carrying six MiGs, saying the cargo was headed for Yugoslavia. Russia said the plane was headed to Slovakia...

Moscow has prepared options if the Kosovo situation takes a turn for the worse...
US Embassy in Belgrade closed...

The air campaign, using primarily American aircraft and cruise missiles, was poised to begin over southern Serbia and targets in Kosovo under the cover of night Wednesday...

The B-2 stealth bomber is likely to make its combat debut in NATO air strikes against Yugoslavia, Pentagon sources said late Tuesday... The aircraft, which has never been used in combat, can carry up to 16 2,000 pound precision guided bombs, or eight 4,400 pound bunker busting bombs... Developing...

Yugoslavia Declares State of Emergency...


xxxxxxxx xxxxxxxx xxxxxxxx xxxxxxxx xxxxxxxx xxxxxxxx xxxxxxxx xxxxxxxx xxxxxxxx xxxxxxxx xxxxxxxx xxxxxxxx xxxx

-- Leska (allaha@earthlink.net), March 24, 1999.

This ties DIRECTLY into the perils of Y2K. Remember this missile missive from Russia recently?

Russia Threatens US With Y2K Nuke Attack


[ new URL ]

3/2/99 -- 7:45 PM

Official: Tensions with NATO raise danger of false missile

MOSCOW (AP) - Russia's disputes with the West over Iraq and Yugoslavia are increasing the chances that Moscow would retaliate after a false warning of a missile attack, a top Russian defense official said Tuesday.

False missile warnings may be caused by the Year 2000 computer bug - which Russia has been slow to tackle - or other radar glitches, said Vladimir Dvorkin, head of a Defense Ministry department in charge of missile-warning systems.

He insisted that Russia would be much less likely to retaliate for a false alarm caused by the so-called ``millennium bug'' if the United States and NATO heeded Moscow's demands and called off the bombings of Iraq and the threat of airstrikes against Yugoslavia.

``The risk of making the wrong decision is higher when international tensions escalate,'' Dvorkin was quoted as saying by the Interfax news agency.

``The risk of such mistakes, including those caused by the unresolved Y2K problem, would be eliminated if international tensions eased, especially in conflict regions such as Iraq and Yugoslavia,'' he said.

Dvorkin didn't specify what could cause a false missile-attack warning besides the Y2K bug, saying only that ``theoretically, mistakes are possible.''

In 1995, Russian officials apparently mistook a Norwegian rocket launch for a missile aimed at Russia, prompting President Boris Yeltsin to open his ``black case'' containing nuclear launch codes. No attack was launched.

While Moscow may not respond to a false warning with an all-out nuclear strike, he refused to specify just how it would react to a mistaken alarm from its strategic radar.

``It doesn't mean that a decision will be made to use all stockpiled nuclear forces in retaliation to a (perceived) mass attack,'' he said.

At the same time, the Defense Ministry sought to stress that it was dealing successfully with the Y2K bug, and the risk of it causing Russia's nuclear forces to fire off unintentionally was negligible. Still, Dvorkin said that 74 control centers of Russia's Strategic Nuclear Forces were judged in ``critical'' condition because of their unpreparedness for the Y2K glitch.
xxxxxxxx xxxxxxxx xxxxxxxx xxxxxxxx xxxxxxxx xxxxxxxx xxxxxxxx xxxxxxxx xxxxxx

-- Leska (allaha@earthlink.net), March 24, 1999.

Has the entire world gone insane? Got Iodine?????

-- Nikoli Krushev (doomsday@y2000.com), March 24, 1999.

Hi Nikoli, was just wondering where you were. Don't know what to make of all this -- don't they know nukes obliterate and lay waste for decades afterwards? We know a guy who sells the iodine, hhmmm. This is all quite new to us. Hope it's saber rattling and does not amount to anything ... more wishful thinking from a stubborn optimist.

March madness? Thought August were the dog days of war.

Again I ask, is anyone thinking about the beginning of WWI, or Medjugoria?

xxxxxxxx xxxxxxxx xxxxxxxx xxxxxxxx xxxxxx

-- Leska (allaha@earthlink.net), March 24, 1999.

Again I ask, is anyone thinking about the beginning of WWI, or Medjugoria?

Leska, Yes. Trying not to but yes.

-- Greybear (greybear@home.com), March 24, 1999.

Hi Leska, I'm still around lurking. Just watching the wheels come off the world in open mouthed amazement. I got a really bad feeling about this whole thing. Wasn't it Albert Einstien who said he didn't know what weapons world war three would be fought with, but world war four would be fought with sticks and stones? or something to that effect. Why have I been hearing the words "nuclear weapons" at least once a day on the news for the last two months? Wonder if Troll Maria is gonna come tell us the stupid-broke ass Russians couldn't nuke fish in a barrell? If I lived in D.C. or New York I'd be on a fast bus out of town for an extended holiday right now. I thought about you today too Grey Bear, went to my favorite gunshop and bought a new M-14 with all the goodies and ordered a thousand rounds of ammo. Just knew you'd approve. ha ha.

-- Nikoli Krushev (doomsday@y2000.com), March 24, 1999.


Hope you got the stainless. But the blue is pretty good also.

Note the other thread today about possible increases in price of ammo. Hmmm. May have to make a run into town.

-- Greybear (greybear@home.com), March 24, 1999.

Greybear...actually it's parkerized. I think I confused you, it's not a mini-14, but an M-14 in .308 (7.62 NATO). It's one of the Norinco copies, but it seems to shoot good. I ran 40 rounds through it soon as I had cleaned the cosmoline out of it and it didn't jam and shot straight. I would have rather had the springfield armory job but the extra 500 bucks just don't get much more gun. It did however cover a thousand rounds of ammo, a scope mount, scope, rings, and six extra 20 round mags, and a sling, with enough left over for reloading dies and enough powder primers and bullets to keep it chunking for a while.

-- Nikoli Krushev (doomsday@y2000.com), March 24, 1999.

Right now I am VERY glad I'm living in Sydney. Last I heard, we weren't a high-priority nuke target for ANYONE.

Got shelters?


-- Leo (lchampion@ozemail.com.au), March 24, 1999.

Hey Leo...Are you GMT + 8?

-- PNG (png@gol.com), March 24, 1999.

Hey, PNG. Sydney is GMT (actually UTC now) plus 10. However, when they have Daylight Saving time, they are +11. (Up here in Queensland we refuse daylight saving! We're the Aussie "rednecks"... :-)

-- David Harvey (vk2dmh@hotmail.com), March 24, 1999.

A little war here and a little war there, Great way to temporarily derail a deflationary spiral as long as it does not get out of hand!!.


-- Ray (ray@totacc.com), March 24, 1999.

Leska, our bard: Are you interested in Medjugorje? I know I'll get the usual flames for saying this, but the messages there are a continuation of the messages of Fatima in 1917, where the three children and 70,000 others saw the sun seem to fall from the sky towards the earth. Mary (yeah yeah, flamers, I know, she died 2,000 years ago) asked for continual prayers for the conversion of Russia, for otherwise 'entire nations would be annihilated.' The third secret of Fatima, which has never been made public, probably speaks of apostasy within the Church as well as 'fire falling from heaven, and 2/3 of mankind being destroyed.' The Fatima sun miracle of Oct. 13, 1917 is felt by many to have had eschatological reverberations, and Cardinal Ratzinger, who has seen the text of the Third Secret, has stated it has to do with 'de novissimis,' a latin term for 'the End Times.' Medjugorje may be heaven's last attempt to reconcile man with God. Her first words, in June, 1981, were "Do not fear. I have come to tell you that God exists." She has asked for prayer for nearly 18 years: millions have responded. Today, we should all pray for peace.

-- Spidey (in@jam.com), March 24, 1999.

Just to add another note of paranoia and worry, Israel's public workers just went on general strike today, paralyzing most of the country. Anyone read Clancy's "Executive Orders," in which a series of manufactured world crises distract American attention from the real attack? AP says the strike affects 400,000 public workers and is shutting down airports, telecommunications, seaports, and railways. Don't you just love a busy news day?.

-- Cash (cash@andcarry.com), March 24, 1999.

the more NATO push the Russians the more danger there will be in the world, there could be sudden escalation of the Yugo situation, thats how disasters happen , the Russians will suddenly snap, then what will Clinton and Blair do, back down, they're already softening up public opinion over here to expect British deaths, since the Serbs are not such a push-over as Saddam

-- dick of the dale (rdale@coynet.com), March 24, 1999.

Thanks David. You're right...UTC.

I'm + 9 here in Japan. I'll start a thread Dec 31,1999 for us on the "right" side of the world to let the others know whats going on...if we've got electrons and phones going!

-- PNG (png@gol.com), March 24, 1999.

There are actually people here who are Medjugorje aware?? This forum just gets better and better!!

Praying for mercy...


-- Mercy (prepare@now.com), March 24, 1999.

Could someone recommend URL's or book titles regarding Medjugorje and Fatima?

-- mabel (mabel_louise@yahoo.com), March 24, 1999.


One of the best sites for learning about Medjugorje:


If your email address is real, I can give you titles of books and other URLs.


-- Mercy (prepare@now.com), March 24, 1999.

BTW, please don't let my off-topic answer kill this thread. That seems to happen when I post :)

Thanks to all who help keep me informed.


-- Mercy (prepare@now.com), March 24, 1999.

Yes, it's real.

I would definitely appreciate any reading recommendations.

-- mabel (mabel_louise@yahoo.com), March 24, 1999.

Hi, we finally zonked last night; then all these interesting responses came in! *makes a note to never sleep*
Spidey, thanks for the info and the correct spelling of Medjugorje. Grew up in Tucson so the form of Guadalupe was ever before me. I've always loved the Mary who comes so sweetly to children. Read a book about Medjugorje several years ago; when war broke was sad for the area. What does "eschatological" mean? not in our dictionary :(

Thanks for the strike news, Cash. Hotbed brew.

Mercy, thanks for the URL. That's the book we read a few years ago :-)

Dare we go look at the news yet this morning?

xxxxxxxx xxxxxxxx xxxxxxxx xxxxxxxx xxxxxxxx xxx

-- Ashton & Leska in Cascadia (allaha@earthlink.net), March 24, 1999.

BTW - Re: Yugoslavia - bombers are in the air... (Bloomberg)

-- pshannon (pshannon@inch.com), March 24, 1999.

Eschatology - The branch of systematic theology which deals with the doctrines of the last things.

-- Mark Mastrorilli (mastrorilli@hotmail.com), March 24, 1999.

pshannon, glad you are safe here. Sounds like the place is going to hell quickly with severe beatings and random mass killings. Looks like the news from Yugo will be black-out. Read this just up on Breaking News:

[ For Educational Purposes Only ]

Reporters in Yugoslavia threatened

3/24/99 -- 12:45 PM

NEW YORK (AP) - With NATO bombardment looming, Yugoslav authorities confiscated Western television transmission equipment today and reporters fled the troubled province of Kosovo for safer ground after being threatened.

A TV transmission facility at a Belgrade hotel was shut down by government officials who ordered personnel to stand facing a wall as they took equipment that enabled networks to file reports, said Eason Jordan, president of CNN International.

The facility was operated by the European Broadcasting Union and used by CNN and other U.S. television networks, including ABC, CBS and NBC. Networks turned to Yugoslavian state-run television to transmit taped and live reports. However, CNN's Christiane Amanpour noted that she would be subject to censorship, and the ability to transmit reports as often as CNN wanted would be curtailed.

``The leadership is hunkering down and, frankly, doesn't see outside journalists as helpful right now,'' Jordan said.

The shutdown also affected Associated Press Television News, but it was able to transmit reports through the state-run television, said Sandy MacIntyre, managing editor of APTN's field operations.

Some reporters were leaving Kosovo as the situation deteriorated there, said CBS spokeswoman Sandra Genelius. CBS was waiting to decide whether its reporter, Allen Pizzey, would stay, she said.

CNN's Brent Sadler reported being threatened by officials when he and some colleagues transmitted a report today from the Kosovo capital of Pristina. One of the gun-toting men held two bullets in his hand, pointed at CNN personnel and said, ``these bullets are for you,'' Jordan said.

Sadler finished his report anyway and when he emerged from the facility, all four tires on his vehicle had been slashed. Sadler was staying in Kosovo, Jordan said.

However, CNN reporter Christopher Burns left Yugoslavia after authorities told CNN that his life may be in danger. Officials have been denouncing CNN on Yugoslavian television as ``a factory of lies'' and ran a picture of Burns, Jordan said.

``It's just a dreadful situation,'' he said. CNN is particularly susceptible to trouble because its reports are telecast in Yugoslavia, he said.

APTN reporters have elected to stay in Kosovo, concerned that trying to leave at night would be too dangerous.

``They are acutely aware of the potential danger,'' MacIntyre said. ``At the moment, they are remaining in their temporary offices.''

xxxxxxxx xxxxxxxx xxxxxxxx xxxx

-- Leska (allaha@earthlink.net), March 24, 1999.

What the Russians are saying:

President Boris Yeltsin appealed to world leaders in a national television address on Wednesday to keep Bill Clinton from making what he described as a "terrifying and tragic"


of launching air strikes against Serbia.

Russia says it is ready to call an emergency meeting of the Security Council if the strikes go ahead.

Prime Minister, Yevgeny Primakov - back in Moscow after cancelling a visit to the US in mid-flight - warned that Russia's relations with Washington would be damaged.

He said European stability would also be harmed and the situation in Kosovo destabilised.

The Russian Foreign Minister, Igor Ivanov, said planned Nato attacks were an act of aggression and ran counter to UN resolutions.

The Russian Defence Minister, Igor Sergeyev, warned of "a new Vietnam inside Europe".

This is the most serious situation since the end of the cold war

Mr. K

-- Mr. Kennedy (not@the.front), March 24, 1999.


Eschatology is the study of the "end-times"...that period on Earth just before the return of Jesus. But I'll not address that topic...bad idea on this forum. Maybe we should get back to Y2K as a topic?

-- me (me@home.org), March 24, 1999.

Thanks, me & Mark. This is about Y2K. "Use it or lose it." It's driving our policies in the acceleration seat. Take care of these problem areas while we still have the capability. Strike the terrorist hotbeds before they get us. Those weapons cost megabucks. They're using them rather than spending more $$ fixing/scrapping them.

We don't like this policy, just observing. We think Y2K fear of equipment failures will cause hyped military activity and lead to conflagration. Hoping we're totally wrong ...

xxxxxxx xxxxxxx xxxxxxx xxxxxxx xxxxxxx xx

-- Ashton & Leska in Cascadia (allaha@earthlink.net), March 24, 1999.

Back to topic here, anyone think that Russia will capitalize (if you'll forgive the irony) on the opportunity to aid Yugoslavia in their crisis in an attempt to do some reclaiming of portions of the former Soviet empire? If so, look for this thing to escalate way beyond sending in migs and weapons. Nothing like a war to pull together a nation and resolve economic distress, eh?

-- David (David@BankPacman.com), March 24, 1999.

Is it a cheery news contest? What gives? This just up on Breaking News:

Experts: Ukraine's Nuclear Sector Close To Degradation

[ For Educational Purposes Only ]

3/24/99 -- 1:29 PM

KIEV, Ukraine (AP) - The nuclear power industry in the country where the Chernobyl disaster took place is so strapped for cash it has virtually stopped funding reactor safety maintenance, analysts said Wednesday.

As a result, the number of malfunctions at the five nuclear reactors in the Ukraine increased 20 percent in 1998 over the previous year, said the Ukrainian Nuclear Society, an independent group of former senior nuclear plant managers and industry experts.

``The situation in the nuclear sector has drastically worsened,'' said noted UNS board member Mykola Shteinberg.

Ukraine's Soviet-era nuclear plants have prompted safety concerns since the 1986 explosion and fire at the Chernobyl plant, the world's worst nuclear accident.

Ukraine insists it needs nuclear power as an efficient and relatively cheap alternative to its aging coal-powered plants. Ukraine's nuclear power facilities account for more than 40 percent of the former Soviet republic's electricity production.

Ukraine's continuing economic decline has much to do with the deterioration of plant safety. Nuclear plants receive just a small percentage of what they are owed from electricity consumers, Shteinberg told a news conference.

Officials from the society issued their warning amid monthlong protests by nuclear workers demanding overdue salaries. The government owes nuclear workers $40 million in back wages.

In the latest sign of nuclear troubles, a reactor at the Yuzhnaya power plant suffered a malfunction in a transformer Tuesday, forcing plant officials to reduce its output by 20 percent, the state nuclear energy company Energoatom said. It said no radiation was released.

Oopsie, doesn't look like they will be paying attention to Y2K fixes.

xxxxxxx xxxxxxx xxxxxxx xxxxxxx xxxxxxx xxxxxxx xxxxxxx x

-- Leska (allaha@earthlink.net), March 24, 1999.

Well, breaking reports on the news. The strikes have begun.
Mr. K

-- Mr. Kennedy (NATO@work.now), March 24, 1999.


"Nothing like a war to pull together a nation and resolve economic distress, eh?" Plus a move to warmer climes.


*Big Sigh*

-- Diane J. Squire (sacredspaces@yahoo.com), March 24, 1999.

Look at the stories coming up! Some very interesting history detailed here. Don't have time to copy them here, but for your education very informative reading.

AP Breaking News


xxxxxxx xxxxxxx xxxxxxx xxxxxx

-- Leska (allaha@earthlink.net), March 24, 1999.

S.F. AP International Stories refresh/reload often ...

http:// www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article-list.cgi?key=international&directory=/ news/archive/1999/03/24

Also ...

NATO launches airstrikes against Yugoslavia

Associated Press

Wednesday, March 24, 1999
Breaking News Sections

(03-24) 11:02 PST BRUSSELS, Belgium (AP) -- NATO launched airstrikes against Yugoslavia on Wednesday, NATO Secretary-General Javier Solana said. ...

http:// www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/news/archive/1999/03/24/ international0912EST0561.DTL#sections

-- Diane J. Squire (sacredspaces@yahoo.com), March 24, 1999.

Maybe this is what all those urban warfare maneuvers were for?

-- Deborah (infowars@yahoo.com), March 24, 1999.

How sad.

-- Spidey (in@jam.com), March 24, 1999.

I haven't found any U.N. statements. Has anyone seen/heard anything about U.N.???

-- Deborah (infowars@yahoo.com), March 24, 1999.


United Nations web-site


UN News


UN Statements to the Press: Current Events

http://www.un.org/ Radio/news/statements/

Noon Briefing Highlights

http://www.un.org/ News/ossg/hilites.htm


Wednesday, March 24, 1999


 UN staff are out of Kosovo and have reduced their presence in Belgrade.

 The UN High Commissioner for Refugees (UNHCR), Sadako Ogata, said her decision Tuesday to evacuate UNHCR staff from Kosovo who had been assisting more than 200,000 war victims was "tormenting." Ogata vowed that UNHCR staff would go back to the province as soon as possible.

 No major movements of refugees have been reported crossing borders today.

 Asked for specifics about the UN presence in the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, the deputy spokesman said as of this morning there were 15 staff members left in Belgrade from various agencies, including UNHCR, the World Food Programme (WFP), the World Health Organization (WHO), the United Nations Childrens Fund (UNICEF) and the UN Liaison Office.

 In response to another question, the deputy spokesman said the Secretary-General had been following the issue very closely and had been in contact with members of the so-called Contact Group of nations on Kosovo. He added that the Secretary-General was expected to make a statement later on today.

See also ...



UN Scheduled Press Conferences

http://www.un.org/News/ ossg/conf.htm

Daily Highlights - Brief Press Summaries Latest Daily Highlights (bit slow)

http://www.un.org/News/ dh/latest.htm

UN Press Releases Press Releases (last 7 days)

http://www.un.org/ News/Press/7days.html

-- Diane J. Squire (sacredspaces@yahoo.com), March 24, 1999.

Puddintane - yep, I thought NATO was a defensive alliance as well. I suppose it depends on how you look at it. Are we defending the people of Koscovo? I think so, but the logic of all from every side of this has me puzzled. The thing that kept us away from peace was a UN peace keeping force. How ironic is that?

Deborah - I think Russia is going to push the UN really hard really quick!

Man, Nikki, you're so right. The wheels are flying off the cart. A few minutes ago, here in So Cal, I heard an alarm siren and I nearly had a heart attack. I think it must have been a test but I saw my life flash before my eyes.

These are really strange times and I think it's really prudent that we all pray to whomever it is that we place our faith.

Mike ==========================================================

-- Michael Taylor (mtdesign3@aol.com), March 24, 1999.


LOL! This is the paltry sum of what I came up with...

Russia will demand an emergency meeting of the UN Security Council immediately after NATO makes air strikes against Yugoslavia...

Very sad I must say.

Thanks for your efforts!! Now off to read!

-- Deborah (infowars@yahoo.com), March 24, 1999.

Speaking of ... Michael ...

I was briefly watching the local PBS station to see if there's any more news, and suddenly they flashed ...

EMERGENCY BROADCAST SYSTEM ALERT ... This is a test. (Mentioning it was at the request of the FCC).

Wierd timing.


-- Diane J. Squire (sacredspaces@yahoo.com), March 24, 1999.

President Clinton to address nation at 8:00 p.m. eastern time.

-- Deborah (infowars@yahoo.com), March 24, 1999.

See also thread ...

The bombing has begun...

http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id= 000eCk

-- Diane J. Squire (sacredspaces@yahoo.com), March 24, 1999.


http://www.abcnews.go.com/go/sections/ world/DailyNews/kosovo990324_bombing2.html

Transcript: Javier Solana

The Associated Press
March 23  A statement by NATO Secretary-General Javier Solana on Tuesday ordering airstrikes against Yugoslavia:

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/world/ DailyNews/solana_transcript.html

NATO (North Atlantic Treaty Organization) official web-site

[Note: link seems to just hang, must be busy] ...


Yahoo NATO related info & links ...

http://dir.yahoo.com/ Government/Military/Organizations/ North_Atlantic_Treaty_Organization__NATO_/

More Kosovo/NATO transcripts at USIA (United United States Information Agency) Washington File -- Latest News

http:// www.usia.gov/products/washfile/latest.shtml

-- Diane J. Squire (sacredspaces@yahoo.com), March 24, 1999.

In Wag the Dog , we attacked Albania. Turns out that reality is only about 40 miles Northeast:


-- Mac (
sneak@lurk.com), March 24, 1999.

I knew that there was a reason why Billy has been hangin' with the people in the Hollywood circuit!

Now, the question is: who is his foreign policy advisor? Stephen Spielberg, John Travolta, or Francis Ford Cappola? ;-)

-- Faze the Nation (dazed@confused.com), March 24, 1999.

Well, since it seems this forum has become very off-topic today, I figured I might as well join in the fray.

I posted an earlier thread about Dannion Brinkley. (You know--the former alleged nasty CIA guy who died three times and says he saw a whole bunch of the future?) Here's an excerpt from an interview he did on Earth Changes Television on November 5, 1998.: _______________________

"ECTV -- It has been about a year since I've had Dannion on the show. Dannion came into town and he spoke a lot about hospice work. But, Dannion also touched base again, out of his book `Saved By the Light,' on many of his predictions that are coming true today (and) so current that one of the documents about the Middle East was signed today. Dannion, let's start with that. You spoke with a lot of passion. Not that you don't always but you had a different flavor about you -- especially about the Middle East.

Touch on that for a few minutes.

DB -- Well, Mitch, once it was a prediction. Now it is the present. Here's what is so amazing to me: what is now my past is not the future, but the present. And, as we watch these things come true, we really take a good look. This is the 98th one... [as listed in "Saved by the Light." -- ED.] It means two things. The world is in transition and we must be very, very much aware of it. The fact that I was given these, the last thing I said in `Saved By the Light' is that we have the power to change them. I think the urgency and difference in my lecture now is that we cannot wait, because if the next three are right we're moving into a period of the `One with the Blue Turban,' the Deputy of God, the Great Islamic Power. I know this person. I have seen them. I know who they are. From the time that piece of paper was signed, they will make their move in 120 days from now. [i.e., sometime in early-to-mid March 99? -- Ed.] I will fight that war no more. My job now is the quality of those who have already fought, to embrace change and to understand it.

ECTV -- Dannion, I like the word that you used. U R G E N C Y. That is it! That's what's coming across now, that sense of urgency. Remember what Winston Churchill once said -- `You know, it's funny about you Americans. You seem to be at your best when things are at their worst.' I think there is some real truth to that but it works in a very positive way in bringing us back together in a community, back to our villages, back to our tribes. Do you sense that happening?

DB -- Oh, absolutely! I think it's about ALL spiritual beings, not just Americans. But, Americans have the ability to love, hope, and dream what they wish. We will rebel! The governments don't frighten us or intimidate us. We don't have an old enough history and lineage for it to bother us. We can meet each other, inspire and change, and every two years we throw the bums out. So, this sense of urgency is to become aware of our spiritual identities, because this country is founded on those things and these principles have to be self-evident, and we mark the time and embrace the world as it comes, and be non-warlike, be more loving."

(End of excerpt. Preparing for flameflowers. Access earlier thread for more to flame about. Or---maybe not. . .)

-- just guessin' (idunno@whoknows.com), March 24, 1999.

We read Dannion Brinkley with interest. The daughter of a patient who died received the video from a friend. With her mother laid out on the bed, after death, we all watched the video. Good experience, helped all of us. Our view is different than Dannion's, but much of what he says we relate to. No flames :-)

xxxxxxx xxxxxxx xxxx

-- Ashton & Leska in Cascadia (allaha@earthlink.net), March 24, 1999.

-- CloseTag (middleground@critt.com), March 24, 1999.

Moderation questions? read the FAQ