I'll confess it: out of pure intellectual curiosity, I've read everything ever written (E-E-W) about alien abduction and UFOs, from Interrupted Journey to Whitley Streiber. Most is nonsense. I have no use for the Heaven's Gate cult or any such nonsense.

One author, however, is really different. David Jacobs, professor of history at Temple University has written The Threat . By far the most serious, careful, thoughtful, and bone-chilling of any alien/ufo book. He carefully summarizes his research on hundreds of self-proclaimed abductees, through interview, hypnosis, and attempted independent corraboration of evidence.

Unlike other "positive" abduction authors like John Mack, and Streiber (for the most part), Jacobs view is unrelentingly dark. He's the Gary North of alien abduction - smart, thorough, detailed, logical, hard to refute, and uncompromisingly scary. He started out ridiculing abduction reports, as a total skeptic.

His well-documented thesis: they're real. They're here. They mean the human race no good. If you read Jacobs, you'll feel like a DGI being hammered by Gary North or InfoMagic all over again.

What's most relevant for this NG is the very frequent theme in the abduction experience of aliens informing abductees of upcoming disaster for the human race, in unspecified form but in a near time-frame. y2k could be part of it, or y2k might be some kind of cover or distractor for it.

Some quotes from The Threat (personal names are some of the subjects he studied):

Pam Martin was led to believe that the alien agenda had three stages - gradual, accelerated, and sudden. The aliens indicated to her that they are now in the accelerated stage and she felt that "all this is going to "go down" sooner than what people would think. An alien told Jason Howard that it would happen around 1999. The aliens are generally vague about dates, but most imply that The Change [alien agenda explained elsewhere in the book - RC] will come "soon, very soon." Reshma Kamal was told that after The Change, there will be only one form of government: The insectlike aliens will be in complete control. There will be no necessity to continue national governments. There will be "one system" and "one goal".

I never imagined such a scenario when I first started to study the UFO phenomenon. Nor did I imagine that I would spend so many years of my adult life involved with the subject. I never imagined that I would have to tell my children not to talk about my research at their school because they could be unmercifully teased. I never dreamed that my wife would learn not to mention my interests at her workplace because her employer might think she was married to a madman, and that could hurt her career. When I talk about the subject to my colleagues in the academic community, I know they think that my intellectual abilities are seriously impaired. I find myself intertwined with a subject that I have learned to dislike and ever to fear.

Now, see if the stuff below feels familiar, my fellow y2k GI's:

I have put many pieces of the puzzle together. I have focused the picture, and I do not like what I see. For the first time in over thirty years of researching the UFO phenomenon, I am frightened of it. Understanding has not led to a feeling of contribution or accomplishment. Rather it has led to profound apprehension for the future. The abduction phenomenon is far more ominous than I had thought. Optimism is not the appropriate response to the evidence, all of which strongly suggests that the alien agenda is primarily beneficial for them and not for us.

-- Runway Cat (Runway_Cat@hotmail.com), January 23, 1999

Answers

If there are aliens, and they mean to do us no good, they could have wiped us out years ago. Even if they are, say, only twenty years ahead of us in biochemical knowledge, genetics, they could tailor a bacteria, virus, or prion to totally wipe out only humans. At worst, they would have to include wiping out other primates. Our "ecological niche" (and other primates' if required) would be rapidly filled by other species.

If they're raising us for food, they aren't very good ranchers; they're raising way too many defective (poorly conformed, not well fed, diseased, etc.) in their "flock" (I use the religious term deliberately -- don't any of you Christians get the insult in being referred to as part of a flock [of stupid sheep] needing a shepherd?)

If they're raising us to mine gold, why haven't they collected it recently, since they are (supposedly) around all the time, dicking with us?

I grant the possibility that there are and have been alien races throughout the universe. But if "intelligent" they have probably all wiped themselves out -- or reverted to the equivalent of their stone age -- like we are about to do.

Let's all "cabaret" meinen freunden.

-- a (a@aisa.com), January 23, 1999.

RC- I too have read a great deal of the genre, though not as much as you, and the whole subject I find to be absolutely fascinating.

I plan on buying the book, I understand it is a short, but chilling, read. I heard jacobs on the Art Bell show and he came across as a very sane and sincere fellow. It is on realaudio at www.artbell.com.

I hope to God he's wrong but there are a lot of pieces of the puzzle that all seem to be falling into place. Certainly his theories bear close scrutiny, and I cannot really fault his logic.

I believe y2k is part of the puzzle, that there will be a reckoning of some sort in the near term.

My brother, who is 55 and as straight as they come, is a DGI, a veritable DWGI - covers his ears whenever I so much as mention y2k... The other day, after a couple of beers had loosened him up a little, he said to me that he felt an overwhelming sense of imminent doom. He was perfectly perfectly serious, and on questioning he clammed up again - not wanting to deal with his feelings. He was born in Ireland, and often tells stories of his psychic abilities as a kid - a power that left him some 50 years or so ago. I'm now wondering if he might be getting a little second sight back, it certainly fits in with my own feel for humanity in the near term.

All quite spooky, but true.

Andy the doombrooder :)

"We're doomed I tell ye, doomed!"

Private Frazer, Dad's Army, Walmington-On-Sea Home Guard, 1939 (Undertaker

-- Andy (2000EOD@prodigy.net), January 23, 1999.

One reason I read this forum, and one other forum, is for the interesting books people recommend. I've always found personal recommendations more interesting than books by most reviewers. I am very skeptical of books about aliens, but this one sounds intriguing enough to read. I love Sci-Fi, and it's often a precursor of real events.

asia, I'm sure many others have thought of the connection between the "shepherd and his flock," but you're the first person I've met who's brought it up. I made the connection many years ago, and I've always been amazed that Christians haven't chafed at the sheeple connection. I personally reject the idea of being a sheep, led blindly, to who knows what. Do you think maybe it's a morbid longing for a father figure to watch over them and take responsibility for scary unknowns like y2k?

-- gilda jessie (jess@listbot.com), January 23, 1999.

when people get a proper understanding of God, and of Mr. Lucifer and his power, and methods, all this UFO stuff will become very plain and simple

ET's don't come here...this planet is under quarantine

the one place in the universe where sin exists...3rd rock from the sun....Jesus didn't go anywhere else and die to take the penalty...He came here

-- who ya gonna call (aint@no.joke), January 23, 1999.

The "aliens" as known to pop culture are us. But I find them way too boring and anthropomorphic. Clearly the urban myth that surrounds them is of an all-too-human origin. Collectively, they are a vessel into which we displace all of our fears of being Alien-ated in a rapidly-changing world of hyperstimulation with (dis)information. Once there were devils, elves, vampires, zombies, angels, sprites on which to blame all the problems on the world. Now we have aliens.

Any other extraterrestrial intellligent alien life, statistically, would be millions or billions of years in advance of us. If you watch Babylon 5, take a look at those weird Vorlons. They are the dudes, most likely, who are "out there." A gazillion times more powerful than we, immortal, able to harness the energy of empty space. Kind of like angels eh?

And what makes you think that any intelligent extraterrestrial would take on a remotely human form, or even be based on carbon? What makes you think that their consciousness operates at a similar speed/timeframe as we humans? What makes you think that stars, galaxies, even planets might not have some kind of sentience? What makes you think that the aliens aren't like the Borg or like ants...stupid by themselves but absolultely brilliant as a colony/collective?

What makes you think that humans have not already been transported off the earth to nearby habitable star systems as colonizers to spread the message/insights of some hyper-advanced race? What makes you think that we are not already beings that are existing in symbiosis with one or several multi- or extra-dimensional creatures...? huh? huh?

What makes you think that our linear extrapolation of the age of the universe is all wrong? That in reality, the farther back in time you go in your time machine, the OLDER the universe would appear due to general relativity and quintessence thrown into the estimate (eg., today we estimate the universe to be 13 billion years old; go back ten billion years and we would estimate the universe to be 4 billion y.o.; go back 12.5 billion years and the universe would seem to be 3 billion years old; go back 12.9 billion years and the universe would seem to be 2.9 billion years old...and so on)! What if there are creatures that are so friggin advanced and ancient that they are literally MADE of stars, forged in the brownian motion and quantum soup from the eternity from which matter emerged? What if there are creatures able to "stand on the rim" of spacetime itself and see/interfere with each instant in time at their own bidding? How would we be able to tell the difference between these kinds of creatures and God?

-- Harrison Bergeron (coprolith@rocketship.com), January 23, 1999.

Harrison -- all those possibilities are rational extrapolations. I don't discount them. The trouble is that it is equally rational, and equally probable, that some of those countless forms of life are not only sentient and of advanced capabilities, but also mean, nasty, power-hungry and contemptuous of any life form but their own.

As for "ET's don't come here..." in an earlier post---

An unsubstantiated statement. Don't worry, they're here. A great deal of anecdotal evidence exists in favor of that -- and only unfounded beliefs as evidence that they're not.

As someone else noted, if they wished us serious harm nothing woould stand in their way.

-- Tom Carey (tomcarey@mindspring.com), January 23, 1999.

Harrison, "How would we be able to tell the difference between these kinds of creatures and God?" These are some ways that you can tell the difference...(Mat 7:20 KJV) "Wherefore by their fruits (actions, words) ye shall know them." However many are fooled because they do not know...(2 Cor 11:14 KJV) "And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light." I could go on but...well you know! I have never seen any difference between "aliens" and those beings that are called "demons."

-- Mark Hillyard (foster@inreach.com), January 23, 1999.

Runway,

David Jacobs was a guest speaker on the Compuserve UFO forum last year and was very convincing and certainly had done some compelling research into the abduction phenomena.

Thought I would tell those who are interested in the UFO/ET question, that the forum is having its 2nd Annual UFO Marathon Week and you can participate in the conferences, ask questions of the guest speakers, etc. by going to the following URL: http://go.compuserve.com/UFO Once on the page, you will see a little "chat" button in about the center along the top of the web page.

Clicking on the "chat" button will open a window with a list of all the conference rooms. Then just scroll down to "Special Guests" conference room 18 and click on the room to enter. You will be logged in as Guest-1 or Guest-2, etc., depending on how many guests there are.

The Marathon begins today and goes thru Sunday Jan. 31, commencing today with the Stars from the Stargate tv program. Also Paul Milne will be a guest speaker on Thursday Jan. 28th. I know this doesn't all seem Y2k related to some of you, but for those that are interested, or have ever contemplated the government involvement etc. and ET's, I just couldn't pass up the opportunity to tell you about it. You can read the guest speakers' bios and the schedule at the UFO web page.

-- Cary Mc from Tx (Caretha@compuserve.com), January 23, 1999.

Harrison --- excellent, provocative post, don't agree with it all of it, so what? Excellent. Made me think of Stapleton, among others. IMHO, there is a mix of "projection" and "something real" happening. Think Cat would agree to that statement?

"Even" as a Christian (particularly as one), I need to factor in, and do I hope, the incredible strangeness of the universe that *I say* the God-of-the-Bible created. Too few of us do, have a very Sunday School idea of this weird space-time thingy that is coming towards us from the future. And I just meant the universe itself there, not the aliens!

Some of you heathen :-) might not know that there is a Jewish-Christian theory arising out of Genesis Flood that "alien-angels" cohabited with humans and that this was the proximate cause of God's fury at us earth-dwellers. Correspondingly, there are theories that these same "alien-angels" will reappear at the end for one more go. Ditto God's fury over that, should it happen.

I think this is on-topic in this sense: the common religious idea about angels is understandable but extraordinarily puerile. When Bible reports encounters with "angels" the people involved usually fall down and scream in terror: even when it's the good angel-dudes. Hey, John the apostle who leaned on Jesus' tummy during the Last Supper fell down in terror when he saw Jesus after He had been "glorified." Had to be comforted! But Jesus as man-glorified is another story and not even partly related to this thread.

Relative to *man*, *angels*, if they exist, ARE alien is my point.

-- BigDog (BigDog@duffer.com), January 23, 1999.

Tom --- "nothing would stand in their way." Well, the Bible story is that the supervening intelligence (God) won't let them have their way without a certain kind of cooperation on the part of man. Now, I'm just saying that, if so, that would explain why "angel-aliens" seem to go to so much trouble to disguise, mask, rehearse, prepare and deceive man. Because otherwise, I'd agree 100% with you: "nothing" would stand in their way, for sure. Let's get real: if aliens can reach our planet at all in masse, they're light years (sorry) ahead of us in power.

-- BigDog (BigDog@duffer.com), January 23, 1999.

Something that's a bit spooky to me is the drawing of the alien on the cover of Whitley Strieber's "Communion". Not many likenesses of aliens looked like that drawing when the book came out.

But now, that same alien look from the book's cover is on stickers, lunchboxes, T-shirts...

-- Kevin (mixesmusic@worldnet.att.net), January 23, 1999.

They don't come from outer space, according to the following...(Luke 8:30 KJV) "And Jesus asked him, saying, What is thy name? And he said, Legion: because many devils were entered into him."

(Luke 8:31 KJV) "And they besought him that he would not command them to go out into the deep."

"The Deep" is naturally the ocean floor or the abyss. Recall a book or movie by that name, had creatures and all. It seems there are ancient ruins beneath the deep blue sea also. Interesting.

-- Mark Hillyard (foster@inreach.com), January 23, 1999.

Yes, Mark, but Satan controls the "power of the air." These two dynamics are not mutually exclusive. Maybe better to discuss off-line though so we don't hijack the thread. Give me a mail if you want to.

-- BigDog (BigDog@duffer.com), January 23, 1999.

R.C.,

I too have studied the alien issue. There are abductees and contactees. One is a negative experience, the other a positive and informative, almost teaching experience. Control intentions versus empowerment encouragements -- rather like our parts and people within own government. (I have a very dear friend who was a contactee, and the information shes relayed, I find amazable and wonderous).

For all the bad press out there, there is a whole, VERY big group of good guys, who can, and are, working to shift negative intentions of some. Just remember, whenever you see evidence of a dark side, there is always a light side as counterforce.

On the flip side of your studies please check out Joe Firmages website Hotlink:

http://www.thewordistruth.org< /a>

It's a big universe.

Diane

-- Diane J. Squire (sacredspaces@yahoo.com), January 23, 1999.

Isn't timing fun?! This article just popped up on our Home Page:

Carter's Close Encounter

Carter's Close Encounter

When a President Says He's Seen a UFO, You Really Have to Wonder If the Truth Is Out There

President Carter filed two formal reports when he was governor of Georgia describing his observation of an unidentified flying object to organizations that collect and promote UFO sightings as unexplained phenomena. (ABCNEWS.com)

By Buck Wolf, ABCNEWS.com

Jan. 22  It was just another fun night at the Lions Club for Jimmy Carter  when suddenly from the sky a UFO as bright as the moon flashed before his eyes.

A red and green glowing orb radiated as it hurtled across the southwestern Georgia skies that January 1969 evening. Ten minutes later, it vanished.

That was Jimmy Carters story  and hes sticking to it. Carter, then Georgias governor, became the first major politician to risk achieving crackpot status by claiming he had had a close encounter.

I dont laugh at people any more when they say theyve seen UFOs, Carter said at a Southern Governors Conference a few years later. Ive seen one myself.

Meet the Fox Mulder of Silicon Valley
Though an insignificant news tidbit back then, Carters sighting may have encouraged other people to step forward. You could hardly say he started a trend, but he set a precedent. And recently, several prominent people, including two astronauts and a renowned CEO, have said they, too, are believers.

Two weeks ago, Silicon Valley legend Joe Firmage quit his job as the CEO of USWeb/CKS, a $2 billion company that employs nearly 2,000 people. The reason: Hes had contact with extraterrestrials and wants to expose the government conspiracy to conceal a 1947 space crash in Roswell, N.M.

Im not praying for a spacecraft to come pick me up, says Firmage, who calls himself the Fox Mulder of Silicon Valley.

Im just saying there is good, rational, left-brain evidence of things out there.

Firmage said his priorities shifted 15 months ago, after an encounter at his Los Gatos, Calif., home with a remarkable being clothed in brilliant white light.

I dont call them aliens, he says. I call them teachers.

He says its necessary to quit his high-paying job because of the public relations complications it might cause his company. He plans to write a book and is posting his findings on his Web site.

Astronauts Say Truth Is Out There
The CIA closed the Colorado Project, the last comprehensive government UFO probe, in the late 1960s, after a government panel concluded further extensive study of UFOs probably cannot be justified in the expectation that science will be advanced.

But astronauts Edgar Mitchell and Gordon Cooper say that new investigations are warranted in UFOs: 50 Years of Denial?, a documentary set to air March 3 on The Learning Channel.

The evidence points to the fact that Roswell was a real incident and that indeed an alien craft did crash and that material was recovered from that crash site, says Mitchell, who became the sixth man on the moon in the Apollo 14 mission.

Mitchell doesnt say hes seen a UFO. But he says hes met with high-ranking military officers who admitted involvement with alien technology and hardware.

Cooper told a U.N. committee recently, Every day in the U.S.A., our radar instruments capture objects of form and composition unknown to us. In the documentary, Cooper speculates that public skepticism toward UFOs will shift dramatically.

Pictures of flying saucers strike a dramatic image. But documentary filmmaker James Fox says it will take the testimony of credible witnesses like these to change public opinion and force the governments hand.

As a rule, I steer clear of pictures and video footage of UFOs, he says. If its too good, people think its a fake, and if its not good people think its a fake.

Mom, Dad, Ive Seen a UFO
Coming out of the closet  at least in the UFO sense  is no easy task.

Most people who claim to see UFOs lead sad lives. They get laughed at by colleagues and family. They become outcasts, says Nick Pope, who was the British Ministry of Defenses investigator in charge of UFO sightings from 1991 to 1994.

Ive seen a lot of marriages end in divorce because one partner is embarrassed that the other tells everyone hes seen a UFO.

Pope has interviewed thousands of people who claim to have had paranormal experiences. I cant say I have proof these people really saw what they claim to have seen. But I believe a lot of them were telling the truth. Many of them are credible. And some of them have bizarre scars on their body that no doctor can explain.

Pope notes a phenomenon that many of the people hes interviewed have developed spontaneous skills in music, painting, and poetry. It can be a life-transforming event. Whatever happened to these people, he says, it somehow comes out.

Its had to say how Carter was affected by his close encounter. In recent years, Carter has become a prolific writer and peace activist. But the former president has never really spoken of the impact of those mysterious red and green lights all those years ago.
.....
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-- Leska (allaha@earthlink.net), January 23, 1999.

---

---

For a complete exposition of David Jacob's findings check out the fascinating interview at:

David Jacobs Interview

Something's going on.

-- Blue Himalayan (bh@k2.y), January 23, 1999.

---

closed it.

-- Vronskyk (vronsky@anna.com), January 23, 1999.

You first ... no you ... no you ... be my guest ... please, let me ... ;-D


-- Oopsie (*!@+*&^!@html.tags), January 23, 1999.

---

muttering

-- Oopsie (*!@+*&^!@html.tags), January 23, 1999.

"His well-documented thesis: they're real. They're here. They mean the human race no good"...

This fits the description of fallen angels. I believe that, if there is anything at all to UFO's, it is diabolical... either demonic manifestations, or forces within the government in collusion with demons that they mistakenly believe to be E.T.'s.

-- Why2K? (who@knows.com), January 23, 1999.

This link highlights a show to air on Feb. 17th on the NBC network. The show is titled "Confirmation."

http://www.confirmation.net/

-- Other Lisa (LisaWard2@aol.com), January 23, 1999.

Thanks Other Lisa for that link.

At least they mention the Mexico City videotapes of UFO's, which I've seen, so I know they are likely to be through and perhaps fair.

Diane

-- Diane J. Squire (sacredspaces@yahoo.com), January 23, 1999.

Ohhh Noooo, Mr Bill. My favorite forum has been hijacked by religionists and aliens. Some of the most respected posters stand revealed as believing some of the most spurious crap I've ever read. I've had it long ago with the bitterness and invective of csy2k. Now I've been surprised and disappointed by the space-headed beliefs of people who's opinions and thinking on Y2K I've learned to trust. After reading these last two threads on religion (more specifically, Christianity) and now UFOs, I'm beginning to doubt either my own sanity or yours. Now I don't know what to believe. Maybe Y2K really isn't as bad as you all say.

Is there a Y2K forum where the posters are rational and sane? Or does Y2k attract mostly spaceballs? Sheesh.

-- (`@`.`), January 23, 1999.

Hey 'a' ... spaceballs? Hmmm, I've got a theory about that ....

Y2K is about facts, millions of them, and how to interpret those facts. This thread is, OF COURSE, a different story and we're not so loony we don't recognize that. Or at least I'm not.

I don't trust a single thing on this NG on ANY thread that doesn't square with my own analysis of the FACTS about Y2K. Sure that's true for you too.

Notice that Runway Cat said at the top of this thread that most of this abduction stuff is crap but recommended a specific researcher. Check out that researcher (seriously) and see whether YOU think he's credible. That's what I'm going to do tonight.

This NG has rhythms. At the moment, it seems to be exploring some philosophical-theological subjects. This will pass and Y2K FACTS will dominate again, as they should.

-- BigDog (BigDog@duffer.com), January 23, 1999.

How would you define rational and sane? Able to reason and having a healthy mind is how I define it. In order to reason one must have something to reason about. I believe that's what we were doing. As far as having a healthy mind, I personally have never claimed to be sane by your standards. The ability to look beyond the horizon has often been the source of many insights, such as discovering the world is not flat afterall. To discount based on your world view is fine and good, but to belittle others in the process is not productive or constructive, generally speaking.

-- Other Lisa (LisaWard2@aol.com), January 23, 1999.

We post threads all the time about Y2K facts. Not many responses. The dry facts must be boring to some ppl. BTW, not all who post on threads like this one do it because they are spaceballs. :) Sometimes it is simply a relief from the financially + emotionally draining topic of TEOTWAWKI.

If you want a new Y2K fact, go to:

Prodigy Classic Shutting Down: Y2K

or this, which is the govt's mind-blowing way of dealing with Y2K:

"Commander in Chief for homeland defense"???

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-- Leska (allaha@earthlink.net), January 23, 1999.

Here's a good explaination for UFOS.

http://www.reasons.org/resources/FAF/91q1faf/91q1kids.html

-- Louise (~~~~~@~~~~.~~~), January 23, 1999.

I went to a MUFON convention last May. I saw David Jacobs' presentation. It is scary if you believe it. According to him, we are being farmed etc. However, his information is coming from "abductees" that he has hypnotized. Now don't get me wrong; I try to keep an open mind,(evidenced by attending this meeting) but I'm STILL looking for hard evidence. BTW, I would recommend attending a convention,if for nothing else, they are very entertaining, even if you are a complete skeptic, (which I'm not). I forget who said it first, "Be willing to be willing" -----------------------As for that Mexico City "saucer" video, that thing was an obvious fake, and they should have been embarassed to even show it. I'm not exagerrating when I say it looked like a frisbee on a string; spin, wobble and all. I think it has been debunked since as reported by MUFON.----------------------------------------------------------MUFON is an investigative journal. Their website is listed as mufon.com ---- e-mail--mufonhq@aol.com--

-- King of Free Estimates (Iswilling@this.time), January 23, 1999.

Alien encounters that are "positive" and those that are "negative" could both be negative. Satan masquerades as an angel of light.

I agree that aliens and demons are one and the same.

Y2K will cause some changes to occur in our society, and for those that believe the Bible, Satan will using it to his benefit.

I am sure that there will be more "alien encounters" in the years to come.

I will have to check out that book, sounds very interesting.

-- Enoch (knightofyhwh@hotmail.com), January 23, 1999.

There are no little green men or UFO they are man made objects or nature that is all you people sound like children with stupid child like ideas GROW- UP !!! These men that make up this stuff laugh how stupid you are all the way to the bank. Quit wasting time it is running out the next thing you will know is that 2000 will be one week away and you will still be reading about this garbage. Death is the only reality in this world read a book on how to keep alive when Y2K hits knowing about UFO wont stop a killer or feed your children the time it takes to read a useless book is wasted time. People who are this stupid will not make it and should not. Runway Cat will be a dead CAT laying in the road blinded by the lights of a fast Y2K truck eaten by hungry buzzards who are not flying UFO.

-- Cowboy (6GUN@world .com), January 23, 1999.

Hey Cowboy, we're all dead in the end. My deepest interest, and ALL my postings point directly or indirectly to the following question:

Why do we "get it" about certain kinds of threats, while remaing completely oblivious to others, the evidence for which is no more or less ambiguous ?

Human psychology, selectivity, and filtering are what interest me, whether its aliens, nukes, ecology, or aliens, if it affects the human threat dectector and evidence evaluation modules, I'm going to look at it.

Hey Cowboy - wonder if you can mount, point, and shoot whatever you've got in under the one second I do with my Benelli ? Dead on the road huh ?

Peace, -RC

-- Runway Cat (runway_cat@hotmail.com), January 23, 1999.

Runway Cat i have shot in professional meets and win some and i lose some i make a good living with my custom made guns if you know anything about the sport you would recognize me and know i do not lose often but when i do it is by the best of the best until you can make a living with a gun do not brag how good you are. I shoot over 25000 rounds on average every year for the last 12 years how many do you shoot? That is why they named me Cowboy because every minute of the day i have a gun in my hand or a rifle at my shoulder. A man named Cat is a joke or should it be pussy?

-- Cowboy (6Gun@world.com), January 23, 1999.

I have never seen a UFO but if i did i would never tell a sole because people might think i had too much to drink as far as reading about an alien i do not have the money to throw away on that kind of book. I have been watching the different people post on this forum and have paid heed to what they say as good advice but when i read what these same people have written about this subject it killed my faith in these people it is useless subject and a waist of time like the cowboy said in the future these people will not be a source of information they are children in a fantesy or dream world not the real world read about y2k it is real and can take up a lot of time. As far as i can see these people will not make it because they are drinking the milk of children and not the meat that a real man eats.

-- Bubba (Badhabbit@water.com), January 23, 1999.

Cowboy - now there's a manly name.

I perceive a real sense of anger in your posts.

Keep it under control or you'll end up shooting yourself in the proverbial foot (or more likely, gonads) one day.

You shouldn't be let anywhere near a gun.

And what's with the pussy reference? And guns up the kazoo? Concerned with our manlyness are we???

Don't bother answering - it is quite obvious.

-- Andy (2000EOD@prodigy.net), January 23, 1999.

Well, I guess this thread was too weird not to go off the road. Fun while it lasted, but I guess it deserves to sink into the berm of the 1000's of other unremembered and unmourned threads, gone with the setting sun of the last, golden days of the '90's....

By the way, Cowboy, I respect your gunnery - if you're that good, more power to you. As for cats, well, some are timid - others are tough, like leopards, for example. You'll survive longest if you never judge a book by its cover, or a person by his name, I would think.

-RC

-- Runway Cat (Runway_Cat@hotmail.com), January 23, 1999.

The theosophist, Madame Blavatsky, spoke of the "externalization of the hierarchy" in these latter days. Jacques Vallee, the famed French UFO researcher who was the basis of the character in "Close Encounters" concluded that i) nothing involved with space beings jibed with the laws of physics, and ii) nevertheless, they were real and quite evil. He is not a Christian but he concluded, I think, correctly - creatures from another dimension whose goal was deception and harm. Hence, the name of his book, "Messengers of Deception." Look, these beings are not from some planet. They are standing next to you right now. There is war in the universe. Satan knows he can't destroy God, but he can make him irrelevant in the lives of the sons of Adam, and that my friend is the basis of pure evil. Computers have enhanced that irrelevancy until we can avoid the issue of accountability or need perhaps until our deathbed. That false sense of security and control is about to be exposed for the false god that it is. Get ready.

-- James (b@b.com), January 23, 1999.

Wow, this is different... It's an entertaining thread and I believe that there are E.T.s out there. What I find difficult to swallow is the whole satanic demons tooling around in space craft thing. It's also strange that the same people who scrutinize government reports and news stories for their factual content will quote a largely unsubstantiated source as proof (the bible). I mean this is a book that has been translated repetedly, edited countless times over hundreds of years, and is availible in many different versions. Now you're using this book as evidence that aliens are really demons? Given time, I'm sure you people could find evidence in the bible that proves that Coke really is better than Pepsi. Of course, this is not that odd, Christians have used scripture to justify mass murder. Why not demonic aliens?

-- pissed (pissed@christians.com), January 23, 1999.

My name is Deedah

The sound of it is goofy

Keep thinking that way

-- Uncle Deedah (oncebitten@twiceshy.com), January 23, 1999.

Cowboy, do you wear a respirator when you shoot? 2500 rds a yr for 12 yrs makes for a lot of lead dust. Lead dust can give you a bad attitude. Kind of like putting gunpowder in a dogs food. But the good news is EDTA chelation. See the thread, "How to prevent a heart attack" Jocelyn Slough ( very recent)

-- King of Free Estimates (Believesitwouldhelp@this.time), January 23, 1999.

Hey pissed ---- No, silly, Dr. Pepper is better than Pepsi. Now, let me find the Bible reference for that ....

Also, I'm just wondering ... Deedah, goofy, "keep thinking that way". Could Uncle Deedah be an alien?

-- BigDog (BigDog@duffer.com), January 23, 1999.

Pissed----

People who are dead spiritually cannot understand spiritual things. People who are blind cannot see. People who disreguard a Book they have never read (educated guess) are just a different breed of DGI.

*****Christians are being murdered as we speak for what they believe, they are tortured & imprisoned, Churches are burnt to the ground with the congregation still inside. How very shallow of them.

The Media portrays Christians in a way that doesn't meet the reality of the Christians I know & love. Above all Christians are human. They can be offensive. But it is Christ we will all face eventually, and saying ...well Christians pissed me off & I never read the Book isn't going to cut it. Read the Gospel of John..hear God speak to you. The time is short. He loves you.

Seek and you shall find.......

Jesus Freak

-- Jesus Freak (palmofHis@hand.com), January 23, 1999.

RC-

Why do we 'get it' about certain kinds of threats, while remaining completely oblivious to others, the evidence for which is no more or less ambiguous ?

Unfortunately "getting it" about certain things does not necessarily mean you are right about them. Y2K isn't the first thing I've 'gotten it' about, and I was wrong about the others. We're all bombarded with so much information that we have to ignore most of it in order to continue to function. Could anyone simultaneously believe in crystal healing, homeopathy, satanic cults, past lives, UFO abductions, astrology, channeling, psychokinesis... and continue to function? Yet all these have their adherents who are just as passionate as you are about your beliefs. Some of them have to be wrong.

I couldn't believe in alien abductions unless I were abducted myself and came back with memories intact and a videotape to prove it, and probably not even then. People who don't 'get it' about Y2K are probably a lot like you or me.

-- Ned (entaylor@cloudnet.com), January 24, 1999.

Whether it's insulting to be called a sheep depends on who the shepherd is. If the shepherd is an advertising agency, that's insulting. If the shepherd is a government, that's scary. If the shepherd is a clergyman, who thinks he is wise enough to run my life in addition to his own, that's perhaps the most insulting of all.

But I am not insulted if the shepherd is infinitely more intelligent than I am, and is someone I can trust. I am not insulted if the shepherd is my own creator, who therefore has the right to shepherd me, and yet lets me do as I please, to follow him or not. It takes only a little humility and, actually, realism, to be a willing sheep to this shepherd. It is not bondage, it is a free choice, and it brings the truest freedom imaginable.

-- Shimrod (shimrod@lycosmail.com), January 24, 1999.

Jesus Freak

FYI, I went through the whole Sunday School bit, I was raised to be a good Christian (Incidently, the Sunday School teacher turned out to have a bit of a "children touching" problem). I've dropped the Christian part, but the good still remains. I even took a class at the University on the Judeo/Christian religion. I'm not totally uninformed on the topic. Is it so hard to believe that someone could read the bible and not be impressed?

Also, Christianity isn't the only path to spiritual fulfillment. Just because I don't buy into your religion doesn't mean that I'm spiritually dead.

"Christians are being murdered as we speak for what they believe, they are tortured & imprisoned, Churches are burnt to the ground with the congregation still inside. How very shallow of them."

I don't understand that last sentence. No one was questioning the "depth" of Christians. It is interesting to note that the Church burnings that you are speaking of are mostly African American Churches in the South. Who do you think is doing the burning? The racist movement uses the same book to justify their acts of violence. Hypocritical, yes. Typical, yes.

Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear.--Thomas Jefferson

-- AKA pissed (d@dgi.com), January 24, 1999.

There are abductions and aliens, but they are aliens in the sense of being probably from other countries, NOT aliens from outer space. Intelligence agencies, government and private, like to play their games. So does organised crime. Forget outer space; look a little lower.

-- b (b@b.b), January 24, 1999.

Hay you King of Free Estimates where did you learn to count i thought i was bad with numbers that cowboy said 25000 rounds not 2500. I have come to a conclusion that i would rather have that cowboy on my side rather than some of you. A man or woman that shoots that much has to be better than most on a bad day as for me i will stick to my rusty old shotgun it has always worked.

-- Bubba (Badhabbit@water.com), January 24, 1999.

Just went to the David Jacobs interview. Sorry Blue H. there's nothing fasinating there; David Jacobs: " I'm scared"(buy my book) "It's frightening"(buy my book) "I'm worried"(buy my book) " My poor children!" (buy my book) "You'll be scared too" (buy.......

-- King of Free Estimates (Hashadenoughfun@this.time), January 24, 1999.

Not being able to tell the difference between entertainment and important issues and mispelling 3 letter words might also be symptoms of lead poisoning.

-- King of Free Estimates (Hopesthishelps@this.time), January 24, 1999.

Pissed,

I apologize for my assumptions. I honestly suppose I find it difficult to understand that someone could read the Book and not hear God's voice.

Also the Church burnings I was referring to were the ones in China, India, South America etc. The American ones hadn't even entered my mind. The oppression I was referring to was more related to Government i.e. Communist as in the case of China or Religious as in the case of India.

Listen, I could never force you to believe what I do. I don't want my government to teach religion. I want them to stay as far away from the church as possible. I don't support stoning every woman who's ever had an abortion. I just want to be free to pursue my faith and I want you to be free as well.

I agree with the Jefferson quote. I have not been a Christian my whole life. I asked every question I could think of. It is not out of fear I count myself a slave to Christ but out of the realization that in dying to self is life found.

I apologize for a knee jerk reaction. I suppose I (living in a very liberal urban area & nation) have felt increasingly attacked. The social climate public and private has become increasingly hostile in recent years. It feels like a noose being tightened around my neck.

I have never seen anything like it before, however my meager knowledge of history is not comforting. Governments tend to be threatened by people who would obey God first the Almighty Govt. second. Many poeple in this forum believe 'the land of the free' is long gone. That thought is even more disturbing to someone who is among the group that is one of the first to be 'purged'.

I think we must return to what we have in common. United we stand, divided we fall.

a.k.a.Jesus Freak

-- Jesus Freak (liberty@death.com), January 24, 1999.

I don't think that there is any need to be legalistic about the threads here. There is plenty of memory/bandwidth available for all of us, and this thread happens to be interesting. The fact that something may be difficult to fathom does not necessarily rule out its existence.

It is difficult to comprehend that y2k might be capable of wreaking serious havoc for many of us (including me). Neverthess, we have an entire forum deadicated to its impact. Will y2k be bad? Who knows? Maybe. Are there non-human, intelligent beings who make littly lights flash in the sky and create living nightmares? Who knows. Maybe.

Ya gotta hand it to some of these people, believing in things that are not popular and blindly conforming to the monotonous drone of the mainstream. They face ridicule and scorn only because the see or experience things a little differently. Why? It should not be like that. We ought to listen to what they have to say. Or not listen at all, but rather go on about and mind our own business. No need to call them fruit loops! That will not change their minds.

As for me, I like exploring out these possibilities. These possibilities may not be very real objectively, but thinking in straight little neat lines doesn't push human knowledge ahead.

Here is one possibilty, perhaps stolen a bit from an X-files episode: Alien abduction phenomena are really humans being abducted by a secret quasi-government, black budget agency. These secret guys have brightly-colored hovercraft, helicopters, blimps, and so on that can mimick the appearance of alien spacecraft. Inside them there are microwave beams tuned to a frequency that causes the abductee to lose consciousness by temporarily frying the right temporal lobe. The person wakes up in a room, strapped to a table, drugged and semi-conscious, surrounded by people dressed in alien suits that appear as silhouetted shapes beneath a bright lamp. Another microwave frequency, generated inches below the person's head, beams signals directly into that person's audio cortex in the brain, mimicking a telepathic effect. Then the person is dumped near the site of abduction and wakes up as if from a strange dream, hours later. Finally the person gets harrassed by a "man in black" who tells the abductee to be quiet and not pay attention to the odd dreams and hypnogogic flashbacks. Bingo. The whole UFO myth explained. :)

This scenario is at least plausible. I don't think it's very likely, but it certainly does make good science fiction!

Most likely, I think these "aliens" are all in our head. But who knows? Why not find out for certain and keep an open mind?

-- Harrison Bergeron (coprolith@rocketship.com), January 24, 1999.

How can I resist THIS thread!

"Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen." -Heb.11,1

I suppose "...faith is the assurance of things _feared_..." is a true corollary, and is probably where most of us fit in.

RC, my chief concern with this fascinating thread lies in your comment: "Why do we 'get it' about certain kinds of threats, while remaining completely oblivious to others, the evidence for which is no more or less ambiguous ? "

The evidence of date-related failures in software code is not ambiguous. It is an objective truth, in that any observer can test the theory with similar, repeatable results. The _impact_ of those failures _is_ a subjective truth, ie, an opinion formed by an observer. The evidence for Alien Abduction , however, is extremely ambiguous.

I am concerned that people new to Y2K, might mis-interpret this thread. It is wildly off-topic IMHO, and diminishes the thoughtful research and commentaries so many of you have shared.

I too am surprised by the some of comments of posters I had grown to respect. we all bring our worldview to the Y2K issue, religion perhaps chief among them. I don't personally share those beliefs, but I respect them.

Christianity (to cite one example) was pretty "fringe" when it evolved in the first couple of centuries, and over the years has been accepted perhaps not as a universal truth, but certainly a popular point of view.

Alien abduction has no such patina of respectablity (yet). I enjoy a good yarn as much as anyone (SF in particular) Davis Jacobs offers little proof for his position other than the stories of hypnotized subjects (ask a lawyer or a clinical psychologist about the dependability of such evidence. Richard Hoagland did better on the Face on Mars and look what happened. (He has since revealed himself as a bona fide wacko.)

I have seen some pretty inexplicable things in my life, and yes I believe there is more going on than my 5 senses reveal, and I have far too much direct experience with "govt. conspiracy". IMHO most govt conspiracy is not planned evil doing -just cock-ups or loose-cannons causing situations that got worse and worse till someone needed to stamp SECRET all over it just to keep their pension.

BUT

Cross-pollinating Y2K with other, odder issues will not produce viable offspring. We don't have time to alienate or confuse potential GI's like this.

Respectfully yours with one eye on the calendar,

-- Lewis (aslanshow@yahoo.com), January 25, 1999.

Lewis ---- Yes, the question is, "why don't people GI about something where the FACTS are UNdeniable, ie, Y2K?" Now, while I think, from other threads, Runway Cat would argue that "damage to the environment" already meets that criterion, let's leave that alone for a moment.

Various threads have wrestled at times with this Y2K GI question to no particular end: denial? they're idiots? they're mislead? etc etc etc

I feel very uneasy about this thread myself because it is impossible to thoughtfully bring in the why's/how's of a worldview within the "sound bite" compass of a thread. So ......

While some might ask the question, "how can I trust the Y2K comments of people who seem so moronic on a thread like this, I thought BigDog (sic) had a brain?", I would rather say, "excepting trolls, most of the regulars on this NG are intelligent enough that I bet they could make a really good argument for their worldview, given enough time and space." After all, the worldviews "Christian" and "atheist", to take two of many, have BOTH attracted credibly brilliant minds to them over the centuries, considerably more brilliant than we pea-brains on this thread.

Of COURSE, this NG isn't really the place for any of that, which is why threads like this tread the edge. Cat knew that but likes to live-think dangerously.

All this said, we're big boys-girls. Flint likes to say that Milne is "insane." What would it matter if he is? Y2K is insane. Our "world" on this NG is what is "posted." Analyze what is posted on its own merits, take what's useful and let the rest go down the search-engine shredder.

-- BigDog (BigDog@duffer.com), January 25, 1999.

Lewis, you make some excellent points. To me, the need for the maximum possible practical preparation (food, water, waste disposal, defense, community building, site hardening, first aid, etc.) is so glaringly obvious and completely uncontroversial, whether one "believes" in y2katastrophe or not, that I sometimes just leap over the necessity to constantly lead DGI's by the hand, constantly "debate" and argue for the fragility of our economic/social system, which is apparently such a novel and shocking idea to so many.

The evidence for y2k code problems is not ambiguous, however the idea that these represent a true common-mode failure that is genuinely distinct in character and degree from other pervasive software problems is quite problematic in my opinion. And the idea that even if y2k does represent a common mode failure, the concept that it is somehow inherently more dangerous than the myriad of other dooms that hang over us daily (nuclear sword of Damocles is still present, you know) is questionable. After I started this alien thread, somebody posted a linke to webpal, who writes in part:

And lastly, but not leastly, I am astonished how so many of the Y2K doomsayers and the Y2K believers are focused so narrowly on this subject of Y2K when there are so many other equally serious survival threats facing humanity. At this time there is an increasing proliferation of nuclear and other weapons of mass destruction.

David Jacobs writes in almost exactly the 'tone', and virtually the same words, of the more respectable y2k doombrooders. As PNG has recently written on this NG, y2k is as much a cultural problem as anything. To the extent we focus our narrow cognition on certain problems to the exclusion of others, I'm as interested as a scientist would be who discovers a type of animal that can only see infrared and not visible light, or vice-versa. So, as I define the 'topic', David Jacobs work is highly relevant. By the way, Jacobs himself presents an interesting rebuttal of the sloppy hypnosis methodology of 'positive' researchers such as John Mack at Harvard.

-RC

-- runway cat (runway_cat@hotmail.com), January 25, 1999.

Runway Cat --- I'm going to expose myself even further as an overall DGI about most things in life, but I think I see where you're going and my next comments might take this oddly persistent thread down a slightly different and I hope fruitful position.

Even though an IT professional, I initially found Y2K "on the scope" personally because it was the first event in my lifetime where there were shocking numbers of MAINSTREAM (yeah, hideous concept) figures in 1997 (Greenspan, Yardeni, head of IRS, Horn, Moynihan, etc e ... t ... c ...) saying outrageous things about Y2K disasters. This was such a total disconnect from the sleepy-time politico jazz that I figured, there *has* to be something here that is VERY BIG.

That said, my own research resulted in the 5-second GI experience and onto preparation we went.

Now, omitting aliens, I will agree that one could make a similar argument about environment, although I would do better if "Al Gored" wasn't leading the charge. And, in the case of environment, I find personally that the "facts" seem more open to interpretation than is the case with Y2K facts. But, maybe I'm just a DGI about that, see?

So, here is one lame-brain contribution? All of us pay a lot of attention to the "authority figures" in our own world (whether that world is tech, poli, econ, green, whatever) EVEN THOUGH we subsequently subject their statements to test and do, indeed, make up our own mind.

In my case, I smelled a huge disconnect between what an important class of authority figures usually say and what they were saying. BTW, interesting that these same figures have been trying hard to "close down this disconnect" over the past two years!

On environment, I would be jolted awake if, say, Pat Buchanan, Dan Quayle, George Will and ??? began talking about the collapse of the ecosystem. I'm partly joking there but do you see what I'm getting at?

-- BigDog (BigDog@duffer.com), January 25, 1999.

From Cat to Dog: yes! That's really the only point I'm trying to make.

I work for a very rich and famous software company. Last summer Prof. Jared Diamond (author of Guns, Germs, and Steel: The Fates of Human Societies (Amazon sales rank 187) and other works, some concerning the collapse of civilizations) was invited for a talk. He spoke at length about the collapse of 2 dozen historical civilizations, including Easter Island (recently brought up elsewhere on the NG). After the historical review, he went into more intimate personal mode. He said, in effect, that he had recently "gotten it" with respect to environmental collapse. He said it is happening, it is coming down, and with 40 years it has the potential to destroy our civilization and kill most of us. He gave some good reasoning and evidence that I can't reproduce here.

He also made an analogy to 1930's Nazi Germany. He said he had known many refugee families in England in the 1940, all of who had lost many relative to Hitler. He said the common element in these losses was the phenomenon of being, in his words, "overtaken by events". He kept repeating that phrase and said is it happening with the environment, but we have conditioned ourselves to deny it.

But here's what is relevant to my point about a bat, dog, human or other animal that can only hear in one frequency range, the punchline (for you all who think y2k is the highest or best disaster):

At question time I popped up (I've been a y2k GI since '97) and asked him: If the more dire Y2K computer date bug scenarios cause meltdown of the global financial system, as respected experts such as Ed Yourdon have begun to predict, would that hasten or slow the ecological meltdown that you predict ? Notice I didn't say it WOULD happen, I only asked about the ecological consequences IF it did. Well, he looked absolutely shocked for a moment, then he started laughing as the AUDIENCE (several hundred people in my company's auditorium) began to jeer, hiss, and boo! He then laughed out loud and said "I expect YOU all to fix that! Ha Ha Ha, next question, yes - red shirt, in the corner..."

To me being sensitive just can't stop at y2k or any other arbitrary point. We've got to figure out what we are supposed to be doing on this planet, in this predatory earth life system, and in that context investigation of alien abductions are, to me, a highly relevant and probably crucial subject of concern.

-RC

-- runway cat (runway_cat@hotmail.com), January 25, 1999.

RC, that punch line made me feel sick with a sinking feeling.
Am glad you make a habit of starting interesting threads. Rob too. Y2K will impact so many areas and tie in many teetering issues. It'd be great to meet you, fellow Cascadian.

BigDog, I'm saving your post above, it says *exactly* why/what made me take notice of Y2K in 1 second: the total disconnect experience. Haven't seen it worded like that yet so was thrilled to see a familiar "Get It" flashbulb. Thanks!

xxxxxxx xxxxxxx xxxxxxx xxxxxxx xxxxxxx xxxxxxx xxxxxxx

-- Leska (allaha@earthlink.net), January 25, 1999.