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...God's creation..Heaven/earth/land/sea = Good - Gen 1:10
Grass/herb/fruits = Good - Gen 1:12
Daylight/moonlight/Stars = Good - Gen 1:18
Living creatures in water/Living creatures in sky = good - Gen 1:21
Living creatures on land/everything that creeps on earth = Good - Gen 1:25
Then the creation of man - Gen 1:26
Then God saw everything that He had made, and indeed it was very good.
Everything God made = good - Gen 1:31
Now chapter 3.. the fall of man.
1 - Now the serpent was more cunning than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made. And he said to the woman, "Has God indeed said, 'You shall not eat of every tree of the garden?'"
2 - And the woman said to the serpent, 'We may eat the fruit of the trees of the garden,
3 - but of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God has said 'You shall not eat it, nor shall you touch it, lest you die.'"
4 - Then the serpent said to the woman, "You will not surely die...
5 - For God knows that in the day you eat of it, your eyes will be opened and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."
6 - So when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree desirable to make one wise, she took of its fruit and ate. She also gave to her husband and he ate.
7 - Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they knew that they were naked, and they sewed fig leaves together and made coverings for themselves.
My question is.. Who here believes satan used the serpent to convince Eve that theres no such thing as death..? That its ok to eat the apple..
I would like to know your reasons for believing it as that and how you came to that conclusion..
I cant look at it that way because:
1 - the very chapter of the fall of man makes no mention of satan.
2 - How could satan be around to fool Eve into eating the apples when sin hasnt been born..?
3 - It is my understanding that sin would have to come first in order for satan and evil to be around.
your thoughts..? Or beliefs..? :P
-- temple (Jahsmine@netzero.com), March 03, 2005
1: iTS A SERPENT, NOT sATAN.2: tHE TEXT DOESNT SAY "aPPLE" EITHER.
3: Sin is an action of disobedience, it cannot be Born... it can ony be performed. like "Running": or "remainign loyal".
As a consequence to not beign a thing that is created but an action eprformed, it wasnt thta hard for the Serpent to generate rebellionby tempting eve.
-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), March 03, 2005.
ALSO NOTE, Satan was origionally the Prosocution in God's court, to testmankind...
-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), March 03, 2005.
Q: My question is.. Who here believes satan used the serpent to convince Eve that theres no such thing as death..? That its ok to eat the apple.. I would like to know your reasons for believing it as that and how you came to that conclusion..Answer: I believe that Satan was in the serpent speaking through the serpent to deceive Eve. The deception wasn't that there was no such thing as death, he convinced her that God lied to her and that eating the fruit (not "apple") would make her to be like God. That's essentially why we know it was Satan, because that was his sin, wanting to be like God. Just read in Matthew about how Satan tempts Jesus in the desert, he used the exact same tactics challenging Jesus about what God said and trying to deceive him into error.
Q: I cant look at it that way because:
1 - the very chapter of the fall of man makes no mention of satan.
2 - How could satan be around to fool Eve into eating the apples when sin hasnt been born..?
3 - It is my understanding that sin would have to come first in order for satan and evil to be around.
Answer: I'm not sure why you would say that. Satan lead a rebellion against God prior to the creation of man in which he convinced a third of all angels to reject God and worship Satan. That was sin and evil and it predated Adam and Eve.
David
-- non-Catholic Christian (no@spam.com), March 03, 2005.
this story is just a fable...,my opinion
-- sdqa (sdqa@sdqa.Com), March 04, 2005.
Grass/herb/fruits = Good - Gen 1:12Daylight/moonlight/Stars = Good - Gen 1:18
[how could he first create grass and herbs and plants and later daylight,when plants need light for the fotosnythesis(or something like that)?]-sdqa
-- sdqa (sdqa@sdqa.Com), March 04, 2005.
Because He first created "light" (Gen 1:3) which is what provided the necessary photosynthesis. The "light" that was initially created wasn't the sun and the moon which is what was created in Gen 1:18 to be the permanent light and replace the temporary "light" from Gen 1:3.David
-- non-Catholic Christian (no@spam.com), March 04, 2005.
It still doesnt make sense to me.. If satan and his angels were already around, then its all a game, is it not? It would be inevitable for any one of us to eat the "fruits", not "apples" sorry, people.. :PZaroff and David - How are you both convinced that the Serpent was influenced by satan..?
If satan and his angels really had anything to do with it, why didnt God curse satan as well as He cursed Adam, Eve and the serpent.. (Gen 3:14-19)
I noticed how God allowed Adam and Eve to tell their side of the story, but of course they chose to blame others instead. Then God didnt take the time to ask the serpent his side of the story.. just went straight to cursing. If only He asked.. (sigh)
-- temple (Jahsmine@netzero.com), March 04, 2005.
I made no reference tot he serpent beign influenced by Satan.indeed, I said the reverse.satan is not mentioned in the enture book fo Genesis...
-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), March 04, 2005.
We know that the serpent was Satan from other Biblical references about Satan and his evil in the Garden, here's the first I was able to reference from Ezekiel 28, in which God is speaking about Satan and is elevated role in Heaven prior to his rebellion, and God says of Satan, "You were in Eden, the garden of God".Satan didn't need to be cursed for his part in the deception, because he was already cursed and ultimately is condemned to Hell for eternity at Judgement Day. He was previously known as Lucifer, which means "angel of light", a very high ranking archangel until he wanted to be like God and be worshipped. Lucifer then led a rebellion against God and lost in battle against another great angel named Michael. From that point on, his name was changed to Satan which means "adversary".
The serpent, as the being that allowed Satan to possess it in the Garden, was indeed cursed for it's role. The serpent formerly had legs to crawl on. God removed them and caused all serpents to crawl on their bellys in the dust of the earth forever after.
As for inevitability, possibly, but that's not absolute. God created Adam with sufficient strength of character and intelligence to have succeeded in the test. Why couldn't Adam have believed God and acted like the intelligent leader he was designed to be and put his foot down enforcing the one law that God gave them? And once he passed the test of temptation and successfully obeyed God, who knows what would have followed. It's pure speculation.
God didn't need to hear anyone's side of the story. He already knew exactly what happened and why - He's omniscient.
David
-- non-Catholic Christian (no@spam.com), March 04, 2005.
In Genesis 3:14-15, we can see God's revelation of His to defeat Satan and offer salvation through His Son Jesus Christ!Satan is our enemy and He will do anything to deceive us and get us to follow him. In these verses, the phrase, "you will strike his heel" is a reference to the times that Satan tries to defeat Jesus while Jesus was on earth. And the phrase, "He will crush your head" is a reference to the fact that Jesus defeats Satan when He rises from the dead.
See also Romans 16:20: The God of peace will soon crush Satan under your feet. The grace of our Lord Jesus be with you.
1 John 3:8: He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil's work.
Simple cross-referencing will reveal that the serpent was indeed the devil as is the dragon of Revelation 12:9:
The great dragon was hurled down–that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.
-- (faith01@myway.com), March 04, 2005.
Zarove, you're right. I apologize. :)*****
Ezekiel 28
1 - The word of the Lord came to me again, saying, "Son of man, say to the prince of Tyre, 'Because your heart is lifted up, and you say 'I am a god, I sit in the seat of gods, in the midst of the seas,' yet you are a man, and not a god.
11 - Moreover the word of the Lord came to me, saying,
12 - "Son of man, take up a lamentation for the king of Tyre and say to him, "Thus says the lord God:
b - "You were the seal of perfection, full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
13 - You were in Eden, the garden of God, every precious stone was your covering, the sardius, topaz, and diamond. Beryl, onyx and jasper. Sapphire, turquoise, and emerald with gold. the worksmanship of your timbrels and pipes was prepared for you on the day you were created.
14 - You were the anointed cherub who covers, I established you. You were on
b - the holy mountain of God, you walked back and forth in the midst of fiery stones.
15 - You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created, till iniquity was found in you.
16 - By the abundance of your trading, you became filled with violence within, and you sinned. Therefore I cast you as a profane thing out of the mountain of God; and I destroyed you, O covering cherub, from the midst of fiery stones.
17 - Your heart was lifted up because of your beauty, you corrupted your wisdom for the sake of your splendor; I cast you to the ground, I laid you before kings, that they might gaze at you.
18 - You defiled your sanctuaries by the multitude of your iniquities, by the iniquity of your trading; therefore I brought fire from your midst; it devoured you, and I turned you to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all who saw you.
19 - All who knew you among the peoples are astonished at you; you have become a horror, and shall be no more forever.
****
Alright, the last part of verse 1 says "Yet you are a man, not a god." If the passage of Ezekiel 28 was referring to Satan, wouldnt God have meant angel, not man nor god? But then again, i noticed verse 1 is to the prince of Tyre and verse 11 to the King.. Is there a difference?
verse 13 - "you were in Eden, the garden of God." But.. the last part of verse 13 says "The workmanship of your timbrels and pipes was prepared for you on the day you were created." "you were in Eden, the garden of God...x....was prepared for you on the day you were created." In the same passage. i dont know.. I think God's referring to mankind in general..?
verse 14 b - You were on the holy mountain of God. Now, I thought "holy mountain of God" literally meant heaven.. But my study notes referred me to Ezek 20:40..
20:40 - For on My holy mountain, on the mountain height of Israel, says the Lord God, there all the house of Israel, all of them in the land shall serve Me there.
Back to chapter 28.. Verse 18 - "Therefore I brought fire from your midst, it devoured you, and I turned you to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all who saw you.
I dont think God has officially destroyed or turned satan to ashes as of yet..?
V. 19 - "All who knew you among the peoples are astonished at you, you have become a horror, and shall be no more forever." "Shall be no more forever." How come satan is still around if God has already turned the king of Tyre into ashes..? Or did God meant beginning after Judgement day that Satan shall be no more..? Or maybe it wasnt about satan after all..?
Maybe I missed something, if i did.. i hope you'd take your time to point it out. :) And its not that im trying to deny satan's role.. but i want to understand why christians view satan as "God of this world.." and that the Fall of Mankind had to do with satan/the serpent.
Shalom -_-
-- temple (jahsmine@netzero.com), March 04, 2005.
Previously, Ezekiel had prophesied against the city of Tyre in chapters 26 and 27. Here, he focused his prophecy on Tyre's leader. The chief sin of Tyre's king was pride. He believed himself to be a god. But Ezekiels' was likely making a broader spiritual application. He was speaking about the spiritual king of Tyre--Satan-- whom the people of Tyre were really following. It is clear that there are times in these verses where Ezekiel could not be speaking about a mere man.Consider verse 12:
"Son of man, take up a lament concerning the king of Tyre and say to him: 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says:
" 'You were the model of perfection,
full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
Could God be refering to a man in this verse? The Scriptures tell us that no man is perfect, not one!
-- (faith01@myway.com), March 04, 2005.
Good point, Faith. :) Ill leave that one alone.. but...Verse 18 - "Therefore I brought fire from your midst, it devoured you, and I turned you to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all who saw you.
I dont think God has officially destroyed or turned satan to ashes as of yet..?
V. 19 - "All who knew you among the peoples are astonished at you, you have become a horror, and shall be no more forever."
"Shall be no more forever." How come satan is still around if God has already turned the king of Tyre into ashes..? Or did God meant beginning after Judgement day that Satan shall be no more..?
-- temple (Jahsmine@netzero.com), March 04, 2005.
Temple,Ezekiel prophesies in a manner that can be confusing, for on the one hand he's speaking to the King of Tyre who was committing sins very much like Satan did by declaring himself to be God. So there is an implication that Satan was motivating the King and thus Ezekiel is speaking really to Satan, the power behind the evil King of Tyre. Satan was a "cherub" (a high ranking angel). Think about all that is said in the following verses, can ANY apply to the King of Tyre? Thus they must apply to Satan, the fallen cherub:
"Son of man, (L)take up a lamentation over the king of Tyre and say to him, 'Thus says the Lord GOD, "You had the seal of perfection, Full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
13"You were in (M)Eden, the garden of God; (N)Every precious stone was your covering: The (O)ruby, the topaz and the diamond; The beryl, the onyx and the jasper; The lapis lazuli, the turquoise and the emerald; And the gold, the workmanship of your (P)settings and sockets, Was in you. On the day that you were created They were prepared.
14"You were the (Q)anointed cherub who covers, And I placed you there You were on the holy (R)mountain of God; You walked in the midst of the (S)stones of fire.
15"You were (T)blameless in your ways From the day you were created Until (U)unrighteousness was found in you.
16"By the (V)abundance of your trade You were internally (W)filled with violence, And you sinned; Therefore I have cast you as profane From the mountain of God. And I have destroyed you, O covering cherub, From the midst of the stones of fire.
17"Your heart was lifted up because of your (X)beauty; You (Y)corrupted your wisdom by reason of your splendor I cast you to the ground; I put you before (Z)kings, That they may see you.
18"By the multitude of your iniquities, In the unrighteousness of your trade You profaned your sanctuaries. Therefore I have brought (AA)fire from the midst of you; It has consumed you, And I have turned you to (AB)ashes on the earth In the eyes of all who see you.
19"All who know you among the peoples Are appalled at you; You have become (AC)terrified And you will cease to be (AD)forever."'"
David
-- non-Catholic Christian (no@spam.com), March 04, 2005.
Oh, one more thing. God is not sequential and does not exist in time. So he sees the past, present and future all at the same time with perfect clarity. So when he says that he sees the fire turned Satan to ashes and he is no more forever, the Lord is speaking about Satan's future judgement in the Lake of Fire as if it's already accomplished. He speaks similarly about Jesus who sequentially died on the cross around 33 AD, yet God says in Psalms that Jesus was slain before the world was created. It's a mystery indeed.David
-- non-Catholic Christian (no@spam.com), March 04, 2005.
Yeah, you made a good point about God and time. Hmm, alright maybe now i can see it that way.i have a question, though.. Do you consider satan to be the god of this world..? as some do.
-- temple (jahsmine@netzero.com), March 04, 2005.
Yes, I agree with David--The Scriptures are the Word of God, and as such, for Him--everything can be seen past, present and future. That is why the Bible reads in such a way. Prophecy is indeed perplexing--yet, at the same time, it is convicting.
-- (faith01@myway.com), March 04, 2005.
Yeah.. i think this verse is somehow spooky..Isaiah 46:8 - Remember this, and show yourselves men, recall to mind O you transgressors.
9 - Remember the former things of old, For I am God and there is none like Me.
And now the spooky part..
10 - Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times things that are not yet done. Saying, "My counsel shall stand, and I will do all My pleasure."
Declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times things that are not yet done..
one word: "Wow."
Life is amazing isnt it..?
-- temple (jahsmine@netzero.com), March 04, 2005.
We know that the serpent was Satan from other Biblical references about Satan and his evil in the Garden, here's the first I was able to reference from Ezekiel 28, in which God is speaking about Satan and is elevated role in Heaven prior to his rebellion, and God says of Satan, "You were in Eden, the garden of God".The text is agint Tyre, not satan, using metaphorical language...
Satan didn't need to be cursed for his part in the deception, because he was already cursed and ultimately is condemned to Hell for eternity at Judgement Day.
Funny you mention this...since the serpent WAS cursed... if satan needed no curse, why was he cursed? and why did the curse read " On thy belly shalt thouy go", which seems to indicate a physical design of the seprent we see today?
He was previously known as Lucifer, which means "angel of light", a very high ranking archangel until he wanted to be like God and be worshipped. Lucifer then led a rebellion against God and lost in battle against another great angel named Michael. From that point on, his name was changed to Satan which means "adversary".
This is actually not true. The name Lucifer, at oen time, was a common name in the froman empire.
The name origionated as the name of a god, Lucifer, the Herald of the Dawn, and son of Eos, the goddess of the dawn.
It became applied to satan due tot he same verses in ezekiel you quoted , which was interpreted int he Middle ages to be a reference to Satan.
The text used was the Latin Vulgate, where Gerome used the name Lucifer, as it was also the name of the Morning star" that we see at sunrise.
later, many Bibles rtained the Latin reading, because they wante to retain the use of the vwerses as text of satan. Thus one of the few faults of the King James Bible, my own personal preference Bible. However, the verses do not refer to satan per sey, but instead to the King of Tyre and his pending destruction./
The serpent, as the being that allowed Satan to possess it in the Garden, was indeed cursed for it's role.
Again we see Human pride. animals are "It's' Over ont he Cahtolic forum aniamsl ar ethogyth of as mere possesions, things. The Bibel does call the swrpent "He" though, and not it. so God did not merley thing "it" a thing.
But, this is an interestign problem.
1: If the serpent was not a vreature possessed of reason and ability ot think, coudl the serpent have been liable for satan possesing him? I mean, if the serpent is a midnless beast, could it be said ot be hst to punish him?
2: If the serpent allowed hismelf to be posseessed by satan, doesn thtis imply ascent to Satans desires?
This also renders the real queastion, upon what authority do you say "The serpent was possessed by satan"?
No Biblical texts make this claim, and what is mroe cshokcing is how most Christaisn claim sola scripture aside form Cahtolics, and yet make such extra-Biblical claims as if they are inded fact. without Biblical rferencing to satan possesisng the serpent, how can you knwo this is what indeed occured?
The serpent formerly had legs to crawl on. God removed them and caused all serpents to crawl on their bellys in the dust of the earth forever after.
See this makes no sence.
why woudl he punish a Mindless animal for asoemthign he had no controle over or undestanding of?
Unless the animal willignly allowed the possession. which itself asusmes satan possessed the body of the Seprent, which itself is an asusmotion based on the traditional undertsanding that Satan tempted eve, whihc itsself rests on H,an invention, and not scripture.
As for inevitability, possibly, but that's not absolute. God created Adam with sufficient strength of character and intelligence to have succeeded in the test. Why couldn't Adam have believed God and acted like the intelligent leader he was designed to be and put his foot down enforcing the one law that God gave them? And once he passed the test of temptation and successfully obeyed God, who knows what would have followed. It's pure speculation.
On this I concure.
God didn't need to hear anyone's side of the story. He already knew exactly what happened and why - He's omniscient. But the text does have him listenign to their pleas...
-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), March 04, 2005.
temple,All one has to do is look at the world to see what it is that people worship by majority...and it isn't God.
John 17:14-16
I have given them your word and the world has hated them, for they are not of the world any more than I am of the world. My prayer is not that you take them out of the world but that you protect them from the evil one. They are not of the world, even as I am not of it.
1 Cor 2:12
We have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit who is from God, that we may understand what God has freely given us.
-- (faith01@myway.com), March 04, 2005.
In Genesis 3:14-15, we can see God's revelation of His to defeat Satan and offer salvation through His Son Jesus Christ!No , we do not.
The cliam that Genesis 3:15 is the firts Prophecy in the Bible, and is about the comign Chist, a Prophecygiven to satan, is a flase teadiiton, not foudn in any, and I mean ANY, Jewish soruces.
the Jews, while loking for the Messiah, do NOT turn to Genesis 3:15 as a Propehcy. Christaisn didnt even use it as a Prophecy till a couple centuries agi I beelive.
Indeeed, this is one of the "proof texts" that is used by "Anti- Missionary" jews to refute Christainity. They say as say, that this is a curse on the serpent, NOT a prophecy given to satan.
Satan is our enemy and He will do anything to deceive us and get us to follow him. In these verses, the phrase, "you will strike his heel" is a reference to the times that Satan tries to defeat Jesus while Jesus was on earth. And the phrase, "He will crush your head" is a reference to the fact that Jesus defeats Satan when He rises from the dead.
This is a typical interprtaiton, but it assumes the texc tto be Prphetic, and NO part fo the text reads "This is a P[rophecy".
The tradiitonal understanding of it was that this was swhere emnity was plced between the chidlren of EWve and the sepents posterity. All of eve's children woidl crush all of the seprnts chldnes heads,a nd all of them woidl strik,e at the heels of the sons of men.
It is NOT abotu one, special Mesiah who woidl crush the seprnt (satans) head.
Thats a fantacy cooked up to give a proof text to Christ which sint even needed in ligt of the real prpehcies about the Coming Messiah.
This "Prophecy' sin propehtic.Its a curse, and it took effect emideatley, not fulfileld in some disatnt future.
See also Romans 16:20: The God of peace will soon crush Satan under your feet. The grace of our Lord Jesus be with you.
This does not refer to eden at all, nor prove that genesis 3:15 was ever understood prpheticlalhy.
remember, propehcy exists to forwarn us of the future and to confirm God's word. a Propehcy not undersood as a Porpehcy at th time of its composiiton is worthless.
This text was NEVER understood as a Mesianic prophecy, and so it is useless to assume it is a Propehcy and try to force it to read in agreeanc wth other, urelated texts.
1 John 3:8: He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil's work.
Whihc is a nice and poetic truth, btu doesnt prove that Gen 3:15 is a Peophecy.
It is not wirtten "This is Porpehcy' and NO verse int he New testamwnt said "So that it wodl be fulfilled as it was written, he sall crush thy head". neve ronce is htis rfered to.
Simple cross-referencing will reveal that the serpent was indeed the devil as is the dragon of Revelation 12:9:
Not only have heard this before, btu it makes no snce to d "A simpel cross refeence", just as I knwo yuo will ignroe me as if I do knwo what im talkign abot wheb I poin out the fac tthat this verse makes no real reference to Genesis.
The great dragon was hurled down–that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.
Oh, saan was called a seprent, well i guess he relaly was the serpent in eden, makes perfect sence, im just so so wrong...(he said sarcasticlaly)
This is a METAPHORICAL STATEMENT.
It dodes NOT say "Tjouj that old serpoent who tempted eve int he Garden". even if it did, shodl we take an alegorical passage literlaly ehre?
Likewise, as stated, even if it was a Literal passage, it does NOT cnfirm the fac thtat saan tempted eve, sicne it makes no reference tothe events of eve's temptation. None.Nada.
Other PEOPLE where called Serpents and vipers, such as the Pharasees.
Metaphores d not prove your case.
I beleive Ive mentioend htis in the past, and will likelwy again in the future.
-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), March 04, 2005.
Zarove--It's called revelation and I can't deny what I see. If you don't see it--that's your thing.
-- (faith01@myway.com), March 04, 2005.
Question: What does Judaism believe about Satan?Answer: Judaism does not believe in the devil, but we do believe in Satan (who more properly should be called "the Satan"). As this demonstrates, the Jewish view of Satan is very different than the Christian one. Here's a summary of the Jewish view. The word satan means challenger. With the leading ha- to make haSatan, it refers to /the/ challenger. This describes Satan as the angel who is the embodiment of man's challenges. Satan works for G-d. His job is to make choosing good over evil enough of a challenge so that it can be a meaningful choice. Contrast this to Christianity, which sees Satan as God's opponent. In Jewish thought, the idea that there exists anything capable of setting itself up as God's opponent would be considered overly polytheistic--you are setting up the devil to be a god or demigod.
Job 1:12 - And the Lord said to satan, "Behold all that he has is in your power, only do not lay a hand on his person." So satan went out from the presence of the Lord.
1:13-19 Satan took away everything he owned. Servants, cattle, his sons and daughters.
Job 2:6 - And the Lord said to satan, "Behold he is in your hand, but spare his life."
7 - So satan went out and struck Job with painful boils from head to toe.
And Faith, you say Satan can do anything he wants to get people on his side. Apparently not so. He can only do what God allows him to do. At least it seems so in the book of Job.
-- temple (jahsmine@netzero.com), March 04, 2005.
I never said that Satan can do anything he wants, temple.But the Scriptures reveal that he is allowed to go out into the world and deceive. And that is exactly what he does.
In truth, he cannot decieve those of us who are firmly grounded in God's Word, those who are covered in the blood of Jesus...
****************************************
Also, temple..
You quoted this: "Contrast this to Christianity, which sees Satan as God's opponent. In Jewish thought, the idea that there exists anything capable of setting itself up as God's opponent would be considered overly polytheistic--you are setting up the devil to be a god or demigod."
I am sure that that comes from the book of Revelation--where we see it prophesied that Satan does set himself up as God in the endtimes. While this is true, Christians do not see Satan as a worthy opponent of God. We know that God defeats Satan., but Satan surely sees himself as a worthy opponent. Not only do we see this in Revelation, but Daniel spoke about it as well:
Daniel 7:15-28
"I, Daniel, was troubled in spirit, and the visions that passed through my mind disturbed me. I approached one of those standing there and asked him the true meaning of all this. "So he told me and gave me the interpretation of these things: 'The four great beasts are four kingdoms that will rise from the earth. But the saints of the Most High will receive the kingdom and will possess it forever-yes, for ever and ever.'
"Then I wanted to know the true meaning of the fourth beast, which was different from all the others and most terrifying, with its iron teeth and bronze claws-the beast that crushed and devoured its victims and trampled underfoot whatever was left. I also wanted to know about the ten horns on its head and about the other horn that came up, before which three of them fell-the horn that looked more imposing than the others and that had eyes and a mouth that spoke boastfully. [see Rev 13:5-7] As I watched, this horn was waging war against the saints and defeating them, until the Ancient of Days came and pronounced judgment in favor of the saints of the Most High, and the time came when they possessed the kingdom.
"He gave me this explanation: 'The fourth beast is a fourth kingdom that will appear on earth. It will be different from all the other kingdoms and will devour the whole earth, trampling it down and crushing it. The ten horns are ten kings who will come from this kingdom. [see Rev. 17:12] After them another king will arise, different from the earlier ones; he will subdue three kings. He will speak against the Most High and oppress his saints and try to change the set times and the laws [see Daniel 2:21]. The saints will be handed over to him for a time, times and half a time.
" 'But the court will sit, and his power will be taken away and completely destroyed forever. Then the sovereignty, power and greatness of the kingdoms under the whole heaven will be handed over to the saints, the people of the Most High. His kingdom will be an everlasting kingdom, and all rulers will worship and obey him.' [see Rev. 11:15]
"This is the end of the matter. I, Daniel, was deeply troubled by my thoughts, and my face turned pale, but I kept the matter to myself."
****************************
Compare to this:
Revelation 17: 12
“The ten horns you saw are ten kings who have not yet received a kingdom, but who for one hour will receive authority as kings along with the beast. They have one purpose and will give their power and authority to the beast. They will make war against the Lamb, but the Lamb will overcome them because he is Lord of lords and King of kings– and with him will be his called, chosen and faithful followers.”
Rev. 13:5-8
The beast was given a mouth to utter proud words and blasphemies and to exercise his authority for fortytwo months. 6He opened his mouth to blaspheme God, and to slander his name and his dwelling place and those who live in heaven. He was given power to make war against the saints and to conquer them. And he was given authority over every tribe, people, language and nation. All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast–all whose names have not been written in the book of life belonging to the Lamb that was slain from the creation of the world.[b]
You say that the Jews don't
-- (faith01@myway.com), March 04, 2005.
Ignore this incomplete sentence-I forget what I was going to say: You say that the Jews don't
-- (faith01@myway.com), March 04, 2005.
Faith, youmqy say its plainly written, satan tempted eve. cross referece the apocalypse of Joun with GENESIS, ITS AS PALIN AS DAY.You can say i miss it all you want, but isnt it true that YOU miss the point?
You cant rellay cross reference revelations ( its what I like calling th ebook, its nto the origional name) with Genesis.
You SAY that these verses "C;early prove" satan was the serpent, but when pressed for evidence, you can only insult me.
Now, rellay Faith, what parts pof those verses link these verses to genssis?Any?
what verses say "Satan, thu tempter of eve, ye old serpent"?
None.
Its nto hat I am misisng, btu what you miss.
You only read this as a proof text to your psoition based on apst conditioning, because you beelive the tradiiton that satan tempted eve.scripture doesnt revela this in either Genesis, or revelations.
Claimign I miss the poitn doesnt mean the vwerses speak what you wan thtem to.
Twemple- Not all Christaisn share that veiw of satan.
-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), March 04, 2005.
Zarove, Considering your usually good understanding of orthodox Christian teachings, I'm really surprised at your responses on this thread. They really display a complete lack of theological understanding on these things and an unusual sloppiness in addressing them. For instance, you said that I failed to mention that the serpent was cursed, but I did in very clear language when I said, "The serpent, as the being that allowed Satan to possess it in the Garden, was indeed cursed for it's role. The serpent formerly had legs to crawl on. God removed them and caused all serpents to crawl on their bellys in the dust of the earth forever after."I don't have time this morning to go point by point in refuting what you've posted, but please think things through more thoroughly. You said not all Christians believe the same things on Satan, but that's not really true. Most Christians do indeed believe what Faith and I have been posting. We're trying to help Temple to understand and you're fighting us on it and in a way that seems to be your own path of understanding and not part of orthodox Christian teachings.
BY the way, Temple, I appreciate the way you are asking and respondig to questions, it shows a true desire to learn. And the Isaiah quote you found is tremedous validation of what we were discussing.
David
-- non-Catholic Christian (no@spam.com), March 05, 2005.
Zarove,Basing your scriptural interpretation on Jewish understanding is dangerous ground. Afterall, they totally missed the Messiah because they did not understand all of the 300+ Old Testament prophecies that foretold Jesus. Plain and simple, Genesis 3:15 IS a prophecy of Jesus defeating Satan. That the Jews don't recognize that is simply validation of why they missed most everything pointing to Jesus.
David
-- non-Catholic Christian (no@spam.com), March 05, 2005.
Zarove, Considering your usually good understanding of orthodox Christian teachings, I'm really surprised at your responses on this thread.Understanding is not equel to ascent in all area's.
They really display a complete lack of theological understanding on these things and an unusual sloppiness in addressing them.
Not realy. My poitn is simple. Nothign in the pasage indicates this is a Prophecy, and it was never udnerstood as a Propehcy until th emiddle ages...
Then only to support A spacitic theological position.
For instance, you said that I failed to mention that the serpent was cursed, but I did in very clear language when I said, "The serpent, as the being that allowed Satan to possess it in the Garden, was indeed cursed for it's role. The serpent formerly had legs to crawl on. God removed them and caused all serpents to crawl on their bellys in the dust of the earth forever after."
No, I said it was unfair to Punihs the serpent, because accoridn to most the aimals is mindless and thus incapable of deceiving.
Thus if the serpent lent ascent to satan, its still "The serpent" who tempts Eve.
Besides, the Serpent beign punihsed is what appens in Genesis 3:15, whihc you claim as a Propehcy of the Mesiah. if this is a Porpeh y given to satan abotu his evintual defeat, then it cnaot be Puihsment for the serpent, whihc is the plain reading of the text.
I don't have time this morning to go point by point in refuting what you've posted, but please think things through more thoroughly.
I have for a long time thought thouroughly o this matter. I wa taght to "Speak wher the scirtures speak, and be silent where they are silent". They are silent on satan possesing a serpent and temptign eve. They are slent on saan asuing the form of a serpent.
They are silent on the seprnet relaly beign satan.
They are slent on jesus fulfllign Gensiss 3:15.
They are silent on all these things.
So why Should I pretend they are not?
You said not all Christians believe the same things on Satan, but that's not really true.
Yes it is. Not all agree ont he undamntal nature of satan.
Most Christians do indeed believe what Faith and I have been posting.
Most is not all. so I dont rellay see how this is worng.
We're trying to help Temple to understand and you're fighting us on it and in a way that seems to be your own path of understanding and not part of orthodox Christian teachings.
Temple asked my beleifs spacificlaly as well. so I offered.
Basing your scriptural interpretation on Jewish understanding is dangerous ground.
Not relaly.
for starters, I didnt base this initiall on Jewish undertsdanding. I was taight nto to make asumption if the Bibel sint clear on things. It torubeld me that the Bibel never ocne said that Satan tempted eve.
Not once.
Indeed, it wa the apostle Paul wo confirned this as a seprent.
The usual claim that revelatiosn chapter 12 proves it was Satan doesnt owrk, since its an allegorical statement, not to be interpeted literlaly, and makes no reference to Eden to boot.
The majorital point of my claim is that the Scirptures themselves do not say that satan tempted Eve. Neither do they say satan possessed the body of the Serpent. neither do they say he asumed the form of a serpent. Nor do they say God offeed a Propehcy to satan abtu his pending efeat by Jeuss in Genesis 3:15.
Its all man-made tradition from the middle ages.
It was AFTER I arrived a this conclusion that I stidied Judaism and discovered htey where in accord with me.
Afterall, they totally missed the Messiah because they did not understand all of the 300+ Old Testament prophecies that foretold Jesus.
But they did undertdand the Prophecies as Propehcy.
Can you show me any propehecy BESIDES Genesis 3:15 that they dodn think was a Prrophecy?
Misunderstanding the way the Prophecy woudl be fulfilled is not the same htign as not realisign its Prophetic.
That woudl be tantemount to them not relaising that Jeremiah propehcied their eventual release form Babyon!
They KNEW Jeremiah was a Prophey. They KNEW he prphecied the Babylonian captivity, and KNEW while in Captivity that they woidl one day be restored to their homeland.
Just as they KNEW form all the other Propehcies of the mesisah that a Messiah would come.
They simpley misunderstood the fulfillment of these Prophecies when they Manifest themselves.
But they did NOIT think a passge was not Prophetic that was. except Genesis 3:15.
don't you find it odd that they just didnt relaise this was a Prophecy?
Just like they didnt rleaise satn was the tmepter.
No, Im afraid that this wodl be absurd to beleive.
The poin of Prophecy was to forwarn peoll fo comign events and to demonstrate God's power. IF the Prophecy was nto recignised as Propehecy before the event wa fulfilled, then it would have been useless.
Plain and simple, Genesis 3:15 IS a prophecy of Jesus defeating Satan.
Plain and simple, no its not.
a plain reading of the text, unaided by this understanding, will nto allow one o arrive at this conclusin naturlaly. You only arrive at this conclusion because of your own conditioning to the theological claim.
However, a Plain reading of the scriptue recvrals that this is a curse, not a Prophecy.
That the Jews don't recognize that is simply validation of why they missed most everything pointing to Jesus.
Again, I will repeat it.
I did nto base this 100% on Jewish intepretation but already Knew it wasnt propehctic. I knew because it doent read liek a Propehcy. and again, the Jews may have been mistaken about hte fulfillment of Prophecy, However, they where never once mistaken abtu hat was an was not Prophecy.
There is a huge difference here.
Now, what actual evidence do yto hav form the text itsself that this trxt is Prophectic? fdoes God ever say " This I prophecy" or "This event will gappen in the futire"?
Or does it read liek a curse placed emideatley uon the serpent? i will spare you the toruble,it reads liek an emideate curse, not a Prophecy.
-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), March 05, 2005.
We're trying to help Temple to understand and you're fighting us on it and in a way that seems to be your own path of understanding and not part of orthodox Christian teachings. -DavidActually I like where this is going.. I wanted to see different point of views. And im with zarove on this one. I honestly believe if satan really had anything to do with the fall of mankind, he should have been mentioned as well. Like Zarove said, speak what the scriptures speak, but be silent on where its silent..
As for the serpent in Rev.. Ive noticed theres a difference of visions in dreams and .. communicating with God directly.. I havent looked into it enough, but so far im thinking the visions in dreams..as in the serpents, beasts, 10 headed lion, 4 horses, goat/ram, etc.. are actually symbols. I mean, we all know how dreams are. Sometimes its full of symbols, and sometimes not. But honestly, i dont know if we should take it literally. Ill list the differences later..
We're trying to help Temple to understand and you're fighting us on it and in a way that seems to be your own path of understanding and not part of orthodox Christian teachings. -David
"In a way that seems to be your own path of understanding and not part of orthodox Christian teachings." And how do you know the the orthodox Christian teachings has it right? How do you know they didnt decide thats 'what it must have meant' and began teaching it according to their own interpretations..?
My question is.. Christianity and Islam goes back to Judaism. The OT is of Jewish history.. So how can Christianity interpret things differently from Judaism if Christanity borrowed the OT to complete the Holy Bible..? You know where im going with this..?
This page is gettin too long.. maybe we should make a part 2..? Or make a thread about satan.. and what we believe his role is.
-- temple (jahsmine@netzero.com), March 05, 2005.
Temple,I'm a busy father of 3 young boys. I don't have time to "prove" things to you. I could easily spend hours digging up resources and references that would overwhelm what Zarove is telling you with the truth that Faith and I have been trying to convey. I simply don't have the energy or inclination for that type of discussion. You've asked questions and I've answered them in truth. If what Zarove says tickles your ears, then fine, believe him. He's wrong and you'll follow him in that wrong path.
To answer your one question, the earliest Christian writings after the New Testament was written speak multiple times of Genesis 3:15 being a prophecy of Jesus and that Satan was indeed the serpent. These things were written by men who were directly discipled by the Apostles. They had the Holy Spirit to guide them which is why they knew better how to interpret the scriptures than the Jews who did not have the indwelling Spirit. As for the Muslims, they never had the Holy Spirit. That is a religion of the devil himself and has no truth in it.
You sound like someone who is very immature in the faith and need lots of instruction. Might I suggest that you stop taking advice and teaching from the internet where people like Zarove and Elipidio will certainly lead you astray. Better to get yourself into a solid church and begin to learn classic/orthodox Christianity rather than the personal interpretations of web-men who like to replace millenia of scriptural interpretation thinking they know better.
David
-- non-Catholic Christian (no@spam.com), March 05, 2005.
I second that David. Well said! As a busy mother myself, I find myself getting quite less inclined to do the work as well--especially since I know that people really do have their minds made up already. Even temple, who seemed genuinely interested at first--is quickly revealing his/her true attitude.True seekers will find truth and know it when it is revealed. The fact that temple could be going with Zarove or worse, with Elpidio-- just reveals that temple may only be here to still the pot.
For one thing, Christianity didn't borrow the Old Testament to finish the Bible. Lol! I mean--what's that mean? If temple truly *believed* as he/she claims--the very least he/she should recognize is that the Scriptures are God's Word, and that the New Testament is in fulfillment of the Old Testament. This is basic Christianity 101.
Anyone who is still doubting Jesus' divinity--has not truly believed.
-- (faith01@myway.com), March 05, 2005.
Do you misn not simpley proclaimign me in error.I did not exaclty teCH HER anti-Salvation messages, and htis sint a salvation issue.
I dotn concern myself with fathers of the chuhc, as they are nto infallable themselves. Jewish writters before christ made ample statements on Genesis as a whole and never ocne took this as Prophecy.
Likewise, nto all Fathers fo the achruch agreed that this was a Propehcy.
Its nto liek I am leading her to Hell and Damnation, and I do nto appriciate the storng overtones of codemnation you reap upon me, for a matter of simple disagreeance.
where you disagree with faiht you never call ehr a "False teacher". But I am like elpidio, an evil man who will lead to error, based on this?
Isnt hat irrational and overblown?
Esepcially sicne you havent "Overwhelmed" my comments.
-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), March 05, 2005.
Im being judged for my faith. Hmm, ok i wont let that get to me. Maybe I just did. :P (Kidding)David - I understand you dont have time to post Christianity proof, as a father of 3, but I wasnt asking you specifically. I was asking anyone who would be interested to show their reasons for believing. I am not out to prove people wrong. I dont believe that. Thats what i was saying before. Believers shouldnt try to take each other down based on differecnes. "Come on...come on!" We are all one in Faith, believing in one same "Lord, Allah, Elohim, God, Yahweh, I will be what I will be"
Its the differences im interested in, how they got to be different. Criticism is negativity, no matter how you try to cake it.
Now John answered and said, "Master, we saw someone casting out demons in Your name, and we forbade him because he does not follow with us." But Jesus said to him, "Do not forbid him, for he who is not against us is on our side." Luke 9:49
So.. dont be quick to judge and criticize. It hurts, to be honest.
-- temple (jahsmine@netzero.com), March 05, 2005.
David, thsi was aprticulalryoffnesive.You sound like someone who is very immature in the faith and need lots of instruction. Might I suggest that you stop taking advice and teaching from the internet where people like Zarove and Elipidio will certainly lead you astray. Better to get yourself into a solid church and begin to learn classic/orthodox Christianity rather than the personal interpretations of web-men who like to replace millenia of scriptural interpretation thinking they know better.
since oen can say the same of Christains. THEY replced millinia of scirptural interpretaiton to make the Seprent satan, and make this a Mesiahnic Propehcy.
No Jewish source exists hat makes the claim this wa a propehcy, neither before nor after Jesus's first advent.
So, tehcniclaly, Im NOT replacign millinia of scirotural interpeetaiton, I favour the older interpetation.
Simpley slamming me on this because you want ot make me into a false tyeacher base dn a disagreement is rather unnessisary.
after all, you disagree oftenwith Faiht, btu she is never claled false or compared ot elpidio, based on this. Because her veiws are mainstream, and mien arent. ( Unless your a jew.)
Dont you think yo where too harsh in condemnign my view, least of all since mine WAS base don croture, wherea yoyr si based larlgey on presumption.
As to faith.
I second that David. Well said! As a busy mother myself, I find myself getting quite less inclined to do the work as well--especially since I know that people really do have their minds made up already. Even temple, who seemed genuinely interested at first--is quickly revealing his/her true attitude.
Maybe it woidl help t be less condemning and mro open. Faith, in he past yo have been dogmatic and use sources that arent even creidble.Now you make false charges agsi me. see below. True seekers will find truth and know it when it is revealed. The fact that temple could be going with Zarove or worse, with Elpidio-- just reveals that temple may only be here to still the pot.
In shrot, i am not a ture seeker, because if I where, I woidl agree with ytou.
afte rall, we knwo you cant be wrogn and are infalable.
Satan tempted eve, and God gabe a Mesianic propehcty in gnesis 3:q5. to say otherwise is not to seek tru btu to serve satan.
I cant just be seen as hoensly mistanken, but I am not a true seeker, btu an evil deciever.
Coem now, what if your wrong? ever consider that?
For one thing, Christianity didn't borrow the Old Testament to finish the Bible. Lol! I mean--what's that mean? If temple truly *believed* as he/she claims--the very least he/she should recognize is that the Scriptures are God's Word, and that the New Testament is in fulfillment of the Old Testament. This is basic Christianity 101.
Borrowed ehre means that, sine the Old testament is Jeihs and christainity is a seperate religion, it takes form the older faith.
Anyone who is still doubting Jesus' divinity--has not truly believed.
Yes and I odhbt chirst divinity, we knwo this because I doubt ONE intepretation of ONE passage.
Faith- Denying that genesis 3:q15 is a messanic prpehcy is not the same as denying chirsts divinity. nor does it mean I am not a teue seeker.
-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), March 06, 2005.
" I don't have time to 'prove' things to you."--David -- non-Catholic Christian."I second that David. Well said! As a busy mother myself, I find myself getting quite less inclined to do the work as well--especially since I know that people really do have their minds made up already."--Faith.
What are you saying, Folks?
We should just simply stop what we are doing and believe everything that you post? There isn't a need for proofs from you all? Hmmmm....Faith. You preach the rejection of the Catholic Church because you reject DOGMA, but you come to this forum with your own personal DOGMA. You accuse the Church of being wrong by pointing out that DOGMA is some kind of man-made device to perpetuate demonic activity. Hmmmm.....here we have you not having the time to prove your assertions and require the readers to simply believe you without you providing proof. Hmmm.....that sounds demonic to me, Folks. I'm talking about your DOUBLE STANDARD, Folks.
.......................
-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), March 06, 2005.
It is interesting to note that the serpent also had its own personal dogma going on. I suppose that if Eve had had a copy of the Holy Scriptures, she would have been able to understand her dilema and predicament. She would have come up with her own personal interpretation and could have rejected or justified eating the forbidden fruit. No, she simply believed what the serpent was dogmatically saying.........
-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), March 06, 2005.
David and Faith - I didnt mean to rub you guys off wrong. Please know it wasnt my intentions, at all. Im also not out to prove you guys wrong. I wanted to know what were your reasons for firmly believing it the way you do. What convinced you that it has more truth in it than any other teachings..?Maybe you saw me as immature, trying to target you guys. Its not you specifically im targeting, its the belief of satan's role as it is.. why would people believe in that, since i cant see it that way..? Becaue its in the bible, and because churchgoers say, "Yep, its true.. You better believe it." Or what..? If you dont have "time" to post all the references, then dont. Im interested in why you guys are convinced to the core that its true, and would defend it to the point where you guys start accusing me for.. not having a real faith, or.. trying to still the pot.
i do not wish to get off the wrong side with you both, at all.
Peace..?
-- temple (jahsmine@netzero.com), March 06, 2005.
Zarove,Perhaps I shouldn't have lumped you in with Elpidio. I had just read one of his off-the-wall postings and then came here and read your response once again denying the Satan was in the Garden. You even said that Genesis 3:15 wasn't viewed as prophetic until the Middle Ages, which is flat out not true. There are second century church writings that explore that very topic. From that point on, I've never even heard anyone question it until reading your post. That Genesis 3:15 prophesies of Jesus crushing Satan's head is so basic to Christian thought I can't believe you don't see it. You're right on one point though, that the issue is not one that impacts salvation, so it doesn't mean believing as you do is heretical or anything. So perhaps my words were too harsh with respect to you. I apologize, though your willingness to pursue your own interpretation of such a clear theological matter while rejecting the standard interpretation of orthodox Christianity defined over centuries is definitely worrisome.
Temple,
I've read your response here and was preparing a response when I switched over to read your response to the "2012" thread. Over there, you said you do not believe that Jesus was God. If that is true, that indeed is a heresy and you can not inherit eternal life. To truly "believe" in Jesus means you have accepted his teachings including John chapter 1 in which Jesus, who is referred to as the "Word of God" is proclaimed to be God. That is not the only place, but it is the first reference and is sufficiently irrefutable that if it doesn't convince you all by itself, then you can not be convinced.
Until you are willing to embrace Jesus as God and the truth of the divine Trinity, not other answers matter. And while someone such as yourself and Elpidio choose to wear the label "Christian", because you have not actually embraced Jesus and surrendered your life to His Lordship and eternal rule, then you have no part in Him or in His inheritance, so you can't truly wear the label. The Apostle Paul would instruct you to be cast out from the Church so you wouldn't be associated with the name "Christian" and to let you know that you need to repent and truly join Christ in order to be saved - it's an act of compassion to make you aware of your eternal destiny in Hell so you have time to change rather than allow you to continue in your deception and be lost for eternity.
David
-- non-Catholic Christian (no@spam.com), March 06, 2005.
temple,The reason that I believe what the Bible says and trust in my understanding of it--is due to the change in me from the moment that those same Scriptures pierced my heart that day. I gave you my testimony as to what happened in that moment when I was born-again and made new by the washing of the Word. Of course, I hadn't realized what had happened to me until I read about it the the Scriptures-- after-the-fact.
It's a faith issue based on what God is doing in my life and the real change that has come over me, that convicts me more every day as I journey with Jesus through His Word and through my life..
-- (faith01@myway.com), March 06, 2005.
Oh, and I meant stir the pot...it was a mistake that I typed still! Lol!
-- (faith01@myway.com), March 06, 2005.
Ive never labeled myself a Christian, i indeed labeled myself a Yahwist, and im open to any religion that acknowledges the same God. (See "Who are you?" thread) I have a hard time accepting basic christian teachings, ill admit that. But i dont think that makes me evil or.. doomed to hell.I accept Jesus, i accept his words in the bible. I know God sent him down here to preach unto us what truth really is and to be the light for the gentiles. I dont deny that. I know He is the word of God, and in a sense that means he is God. But I keep in mind that the whole time Jesus was here, He kept saying "My Father, who is in heaven." Not once but several times. God Himself didnt come. He, in a sense, took a piece of Himself, gave it authority to do what its supposed to do on Earth. Hence the "word" of God.
- Away with you, Satan! For it is written, "You shall worship the Lord your God, and Him only shall you serve." Mt 4:10
- But you, do not be called 'Rabbi' For one is your teacher, the Christ, and you are all brethren. Do not call anyone on earth your father, for One is your Father, He who is in heaven. And do not be called teachers, for One is your teacher, the Christ. -I see the difference.-
Ive listed my reasons for not seeing Jesus as God or a Trinity in the "2012" thread.
I question Jesus' life as a ransom for many due to:
Deut 24:16 - Fathers should not be put to death for their children, nor shall children be put to death for their fathers, a person shall be put to death for their own sins.
Jeremiah 7:21 - Thus says the Lord of Hosts, 'Add your burnt offerings to your sacrifices and eat meat. For I did not speak to your fathers, or command them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices. But this is what I commanded them, saying, "Obey My voice and I will be your God and you shall be My people and walk in the ways that I have commanded you, that it may be well with you." Isnt Jesus life a "Once-for-all" sacrifice..?
Hosea 6:6 "For I desire mercy and not sacrifice, and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings."
Matt 9:13 - But go and learn what this means, "For I desire mercy and not sacrifice."
Those verses convinced me that.. the other parts the bible that would contradict with those.. were somehow altered or added upon. But thats just me. You may think im warped in the head, or a devil worshipper.. I dont care. But all i ask is dont belittle my faith by what i believe.. I didnt and wouldnt belittle yours. And i dont honestly think Jesus would intimidate others like you and Faith did.
-- temple (jahsmine@netzero.com), March 06, 2005.
David, cfuch fathers aside, can yo even show me one scroture that said it was Saatn?How can one follow Sola scrotura as a Protestant, and then lean on centuries of undertsaindign form church Fathers?
revelations chapter 12 doesnt say satan was the serpent in deden,a nd is hihgly symbolic to begin with. Paul in Corinthians states it was a sepent, and he coidl have said saatn.
I follow the same mandate here, Silent where the sctotue are silent.
The two common theories, that satan asumed the form of a serpent, and that satan possessed the body of a sepent, arent preasent in the sciotue, so how is it torublign that I shoudl beleive ony what I can read and that has been revealed over tradiiton?
Likewise, if you msut have tradiiton, even some Curhc fathers agreed wth me, and all Jewish commentaries since before Christ agree.
But on the whole, I stand only by scripture.
what torubles you then, f m interpretation? my refusal to read into it a tradition that no text of Scuroture supports in any way, shape or form?
I am followgn the basic mandate, no human traditions.
Thoujg I use the fathers as valued insights, they are not inspired.I must, therefore, not beleive if I cannto see scirtrue that supports it.
-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), March 06, 2005.
temple,The Scriptures, both Old and New testaments reveal to us that Jesus Christ is Jehovah God.
Jehovah said, "...and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced" (Zechariah 12:10). Verses 1, 4, 7 and 8 of Zechariah 12, identify Jehovah God as the one speaking. Christ is the one who was pierced, and John 19:36-37 clearly tells us that this prophesy was fulfilled in Jesus' crucifixion:
These things happened so that the scripture would be fulfilled: “Not one of his bones will be broken,” and, as another scripture says, “They will look on the one they have pierced.” (John 19:36-37)
-- (faith01@myway.com), March 06, 2005.
Zarove, yes, there is scripture that specifically says that Satan was in the Garden, Ezekiel 28 - it's clear, it's easy to understand even for novice theologians. I fail to understand how someone like you could reject such a straightforward explanation, but you have. And I don't accept Sola Scripture. I'm not strictly Protestant, I'm in the Charismatic Episcopal Church. So I very much respect what the early church fathers said.David
-- non-Catholic Christian (no@spam.com), March 06, 2005.
Temple,I never said you worshipped Satan, but in the end, it's the same thing cause it won't lead to eternal life in Christ. My strong words are necessary because we're speaking about your eternal soul. Stop trying to carve your own path to God. Jesus already said, "I am the way, the Truth and the Life, no one comes to the Father except through me". He's already become our path and we need to surrender ourselves to him and believe what He taught us. To deny His deity is to deny Him.
David
-- non-Catholic Christian (no@spam.com), March 06, 2005.
But David, that passage does NOT say that satan temtped eve, and, again, is mainly a literary device aout the King of Tyre.No scriptrue in the new testament said " so that it may be fulfilled that was written,thou shalt stirke his heal, and he shall crush thy head". This, the firts messaainc Propecy, and oen of the most improtant, was NOT MENITONED FULFILELD by the authros fo the New testament.
That alone makes it suspect.
A plain reading of Genesis 3:15 makes no comment to either a future Messiah or this as a Propehctic statement, and is read in a plain text format, it seems like an emideate punishment on the serpent, who is not identified as satan at al in the enture Bible, even in ezekiel.
Again, I cannot beelive what is outside of evidence.
-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), March 07, 2005.
Temple, I never said you worshipped Satan, but in the end, it's the same thing cause it won't lead to eternal life in Christ. My strong words are necessary because we're speaking about your eternal soul. Stop trying to carve your own path to God. Jesus already said, "I am the way, the Truth and the Life, no one comes to the Father except through me". He's already become our path and we need to surrender ourselves to him and believe what He taught us. To deny His deity is to deny Him.David
-- non-Catholic Christian (no@spam.com), March 06, 2005.
Oh really, denying Jesus as God Himself automatically means i wont be able to enter heaven..? Do you even practice laws..? I do. I recently chose to obey the 10 commandments. Even Sabbaths, on Saturdays not Sundays.. Which God Himself chose to bless and hallow instead of the one Pope back then who decided the day Jesus rose is more holier than the day God picked and hallowed.
"Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord' shall enter the Kingdom of Heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?' And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you, depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.'" Matthew 7:21
Oh, and also.. "Im right, and youre wrong." Is a wrong attitude to begin with..
The teachings you base your religion on says to love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you. How then are you supposed to treat believers of otherwise..? Belittle their faith, call them immature, laugh at them "Lol!" or even tell them they're doomed to eternity in hell? Do you really think that kind of attitude is christ-like..?
-- temple (jahsmine@netzero.com), March 07, 2005.
Jesus Himself said to the false teachers of His day:Matt. 23:27-28
“Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of dead men's bones and everything unclean. In the same way, on the outside you appear to people as righteous but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness.
Matt 23:33-36
“You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell?
Therefore I am sending you prophets and wise men and teachers. Some of them you will kill and crucify; others you will flog in your synagogues and pursue from town to town.
And so upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. I tell you the truth, all this will come upon this generation.
**************************
It seems Jesus was never willing to compromise the Scriptures under any circumstance...
-- (faith01@myway.com), March 07, 2005.
Faith - I dont see how that applies..? I know what you mean, but am i a hypocrite..? He was talking to the high-and-mighty leaders of the day when they were really hypocrites.It is my opinion that to be righteous is to be humble and to have true-love for everything in nature. If you think im a hypocrite, id like to know why youd think that. Unless it wasnt me you were talking about..?
And David -- Not that im picking on you, but you said ill go to Hell for eternity if i dont accept Jesus as God Himself.
"Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord' shall enter the Kingdom of Heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?' And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you, depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.'" Matthew 7:21
Notice Jesus said "the will of My Father in Heaven." If He was indeed God Himself.. does that mean God has a Father in heaven..? That would be confusing to me. Jesus has never said.. "I am God in the flesh. All should worship ME." True, He is the way, the truth and the life.. but it is my opinion that it applies to anyone who hasnt acknowledged God. If they havent, Jesus would show them where to look. After all, He is the "word" of God. He knows exactly what to say and when, because God's spirit is in Him, and He has the authority to speak and do. You know..? Do you see my points..? Do you see why i look at it that way..?
-- temple (jahsmine@netzero.com), March 07, 2005.
You missed my point altogether temple.You were the one that suggested that to be Christ-like, meant to accept everyone and everything thatvthey say and to always be nice.
I was showing you that Jesus was not accepting of false teachings and people who did not revere God's Word as first and formost--being fully authoritive.
I wasn't calling you a hypocrite.
-- (faith01@myway.com), March 07, 2005.
Oh ok i see what you mean now, Faith. You're right. But i didnt say we should all accept what everyone says. I just dont see the point of cheapening other's faith or beliefs just because I disagree. I mean, it would only do more harm than good. It would only cause the "little believer to stumble" as said somewhere in matthew..If Christ said we are not to hate our enemies, but to love them and pray for those who persecute us.. then would it be ok to argue with other believers using cruel words or even intimidating them? Not to me. It hurts the soul, the self esteem and the faith, indeed! I mean, arent you intimidated sometimes when someone tries to cheapen your faith by saying you're just wrong, you're just putting your faith in the wrong place..? If you insist you've never felt intimidated or.. defensive.. bullshit. Everyone has to at some point.. I mean, who wouldnt be intimidated..? They can just not admit it, but i know everyone would feel that way. We're all human with emotions..
Anyway, im ready to let this thread die off. Ive gotten what i wanted to know.. David and Faith has pointed out verses that shows why they believe satan was indeed involved with the Fall of mankind..
So, thanks for all of your participation. :)
-- temple (jahsmine@netzero.com), March 07, 2005.