Readers,

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-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@gmail.com), November 28, 2005.

has anyone of you red the bible completely? from the first book through the last

well here are some things of the OT:

To circumcise the male offspring (Gen. 17:12; Lev. 12:3) (CCA47) See Brit Milah: Circumcision.

[why?...why should it be wrong not to do so...?]-sdqa

Not to intermarry with gentiles (Deut. 7:3) (CCN19). See Interfaith Marriages.

[oh...very nice...very nice...do you really think god is going to tell you who to marry and who not?...didn't he create all people?...why would he forbid then such a thing?...and why would a loving god,forbid LOVE between a jew and a gentile?...])sdqa

To be fruitful and multiply (Gen. 1:28) (CCA43).

[and if i don't want to?...it's my thing...i don't want anyone to tell me how to organise my life...if i don't feel like having kids...how can someone force me then to have?...]-sdqa

That the woman suspected of adultery shall be dealt with as prescribed in the Torah (Num. 5:30) (affirmative).

[SUSPECTED????...omg...and about a man 'suspected' of adultery noone says a thing...very nice...and i wonder how it is prescribed to deal with such women...i can already imagine...]-sdqa

# That one who defames his wife's honor (by falsely accusing her of unchastity before marriage) must live with her all his lifetime (Deut. 22:19) (affirmative).

[why?...must live with her...if she rapes his children and kills his family he still must live with her...if he doesn't love her anymore...he must live with her...what a nice god...]-sdqa

That a widow whose husband died childless must not be married to anyone but her deceased husband's brother

[ever heard of love?...what if she doesn't love him?...still force her to marry him?...very nice...]-sdqa

# To marry the widow of a brother who has died childless (Deut. 25:5) (this is only in effect insofar as it requires the procedure of release below ) (CCA45).

[same comment as above]-sdqa

Not to travel on Shabbat outside the limits of one's place of residence (Ex. 16:29) (CCN7). See Shabbat.

[oh and why not?...what is wrong with that?...and what if i have to?]-sdqa

To keep the Canaanite slave forever (Lev. 25:46) (affirmative).

[oh so god allows us to have slaves?...but not to keep them forever...and he loves all people right?]-sdqa Not to wrong such a slave (Deut. 23:17) (negative).

[same comment as above]-sdqa

# That the Court shall pass sentence of death by decapitation with the sword (Ex. 21:20; Lev. 26:25) (affirmative).

# That the Court shall pass sentence of death by strangulation (Lev. 20:10) (affirmative).

# That the Court shall pass sentence of death by burning with fire (Lev. 20:14) (affirmative).

# That the Court shall pass sentence of death by stoning (Deut. 22:24) (affirmative).

[and these words come from a loving god?...do you really think that this comes from god? the one that loves us and forgives us?...come on people...be reasonable for once...is this correct?...why to kill someone? because he did something wrong...in the worst case killed someone else...but aren't you the same as him then?...there are other kinds of punishment and other kinds of things that could prevent him doeing such thing again...but why killing?...people can change...think about the thief on the cross next to jesus...do you even realise how precious a human life is...i'm sure that no single good father...not to speak of a complete good father would want his children been killed for their crimes]-sdqa

# Not to make a graven image; neither to make it oneself nor to have it made by others (Ex. 20:4) (CCN9). # Not to make any figures for ornament, even if they are not worshipped (Ex. 20:20) (CCN144). # Not to make idols even for others (Ex. 34:17; Lev. 19:4) (CCN10). # Not to use the ornament of any object of idolatrous worship (Deut. 7:25) (CCN17). # Not to make use of an idol or its accessory objects, offerings, or libations (Deut. 7:26) (CCN18). See Grape

[why?...what's the purpose of not doing so?...who do i harm if i do so?]-sdqa

Not to remove the entire beard, like the idolaters (Lev. 19:27) (CCN177).

[so we all have to look ugly and walk around with beards...what's the purpose of this?]-sdqa Not to tattoo the body like the idolaters (Lev. 19:28) (CCN163).

[and why not?...who do i harm if i do so?...just because i would look lik an idolater then?]-sdqa To slay the inhabitants of a city that has become idolatrous and burn that city (Deut. 13:16-17) (affirmative).

[oh very nice...kill people...burn their city...just because they are idolatrous...and you want me to believe that these words come from god?]-sdqa

# Not to curse a ruler, that is, the King or the head of the College in the land of Israel (Ex. 22:27) (negative).

[and why not? if he is evil?]-sdqa

To appoint a king (Deut. 17:15) (affirmative).

[over my dead body,complete against the most fundamental things i stand for]-sdqa

Not to sell a beautiful woman, (taken captive in war) (Deut. 21:14) (negative).

[and if she's ugly you can sell her?...and this comes from god also right?...very nice...]-sdqa

well if all these things really come from god,then i think he really must hate the jews...

you suppose me to take all these things serious?...please...

you take a 2000 year old book as your source for what's good and bad?...well i don't

my morals aren't based on someone else's...i don't want anyone else telling me what to do,what's good and what not...look everything that causes direct harm to someone else is bad...i can do whatever i want unless i hurt someone else with it...my freedom reaches to their freedom...what i do to myself,is my own thing...ok sometimes not...like killing yourself while you have a sick wife and 5 children that noone can take care of...but if it involves only me in it...it's my thing

one other thing:the torah is complete against the nature of the human mind...god gave us freedom...why would he give us then sooo many rules that tell us exactly HOW to live our life...not what is good or bad...(ok some...but i'm talking about these things i posted above and many other things i didn't)

i think this question has already been answered 2000 years ago:

53 His disciples said to him, "is circumcision useful or not?"

He said to them, "If it were useful, their father would produce children already circumcised from their mother. Rather, the true circumcision in spirit has become profitable in every respect."-jesus,the gospel of thomas

now aren't all these things complete the opposite what jesus taught? he said he didn't come here to annul the laws but he directly opposed to these laws(the stoning of an adultress,circumcision,forgiving the thief on the cross...)THE OT AND THE NT JUST CANNOT POSSIBLY FIT TOGHETER

and where is it said in the OT that the messiah will be the son of god who will have to die for our sins to save us?

-- sdqa (sdqa@sdqa.Com), March 03, 2005

Answers

Do you hoenstly want answsers? Most of thesed arent even hard to undertsand, if you READ THE SORUCE MATEIRALS.

Studyign why these thigns are thee woidl go a long way in undertsanding the text,, and studying the Hisotry woudl liekwise.

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), March 03, 2005.

have you actually red what i posted zarove?

-- sdqa (sdqa@sdqa.Com), March 03, 2005.

are you a christian?

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), March 03, 2005.

no...

but i like jesus in certain aspects...but not the religious-dogmatic ones

-- sdqa (sdqa@sdqa.Com), March 03, 2005.

Ive read it, but I undertsand the verses in hisotrical and Biblical context, you do not...

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), March 03, 2005.

i do...it only fits in a certain society in a certain time... but then it doesn't come from god,simple as that

-- sdqa (sdqa@sdqa.Com), March 03, 2005.

That logic alone makes no sence. Suppose God told you "bring an unberella" on a cedrtain day, as it owidl rain. the followjgn week, you dont need an unberella as its a clear day, so god tells you NOT to rign an unberella. Woudl this mean that takign an unebrella was not of God?

why not do everyone a favour and stikc to one issue and open a new thread wiht it so we can validly discuss the matters, OK?

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), March 03, 2005.

Yeah, i, too, believe some parts in the bible were added/adjusted by men.. Even though a verse somewhere warns about adding/taking out verses will result in adding/taking out a part of your soul.. Still, i dont think that would stop the wolves in sheep clothing.. eh? Which is why im careful with what i read..

I think Elpidio has said this once a while ago - something like Moses had to deal with purity because of his lifestyle, Buddha with the many gods that his people worshipped, Jesus with the words of God and exposing the hypocrispy going on.. So im pretty sure some of them included some of their traditions along with their teachings. such as the oppression towards women. (sigh)

I dont believe in Animal sacrifices/Yahshua's sacrifice because this was quoted twice, maybe more, in the bible..

Isaiah 66:3 - He who kills a bull is as if he slays a man, he who sacrifices a lamb as if he breaks a dog's neck, he who offers grain offering, as if he offers swine's blood.

hosea 6:6 - For I desire mercy and not sacrifice.

Matt 9:13 - But go and learn what this means, "I desire mercy and not sacrifice." For I did not come to call the right(eous) but sinners to repentance.

Jeremiah 7:21 Thus says the Lord of hosts, Add your burnt offerings to your sacrifices and eat meat. For I did not speak to your fathers, or command them in the day that i brought them out of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices. But this is what I commanded them, saying, "Obey my voice and I will be your God, and you shall be My people and walk in all the ways that I have commanded you, that it may be well with you.

And most importantly...

Deut 24:16 - Fathers should not be put to death for their children, nor shall children be put to death for their fathers, a person shall be put to death for their own sin.

So.. Those are the reasons why i dont look at Yah'shua's purpose as a ransom for many. I believe his purpose was:

Mark 1:1 + Matt 11:10 Behold, I send My messenger before your face, who will prepare your way before you.

im not denying that Yah'shua is the Messiah or that He died on the cross. In fact, I do believe He died on the cross, because the method of crucification was popular at the time.

and SQDA, - Moses gave away certification of divorce due to people's constant complainings.. Im not sure if it was Moses' decision alone or if he had God's permission to give certificatons.. But its evident that since he had the certifications of divorce, that maybe more traditions were added upon as well. ...maybe.

-- temple (Jahsmine@netzero.com), March 03, 2005.

"That logic alone makes no sence. Suppose God told you "bring an unberella" on a cedrtain day, as it owidl rain. the followjgn week, you dont need an unberella as its a clear day, so god tells you NOT to rign an unberella. Woudl this mean that takign an unebrella was not of God?"

['god' allowed to murder people as punishment for things that certainly don't deserve that kind of punishment?

'god' told you MUST kill the idolatrous people and burn their city?

'god' allowed to the people to have slaves...?

this has nothing to do with rain or umbrellas,these things are evil,no matter if it rains or not,no matter if it happens in the 2005 year after christ or the 1200 year before...

god doesn't change with time,but people do]-sdqa

-- sdqa (sdqa@sdqa.Com), March 03, 2005.

Again the list itsself is too long and encombered to deal with here. why not take it one topic ata time, and in a new thread?

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), March 03, 2005.

Have you heard about the Urim and Thummim, sdqa?

The priest used to verify if God was communicating with humans.

KJV Exodus 28:30 "And thou shalt put in the breastplate of judgment the Urim and the Thummim; and they shall be upon Aaron's heart, when he goeth in before YHWH: and Aaron shall bear the judgment of the children of Israel upon his heart before YHWH continually."

What if the priest misiterpreted the message? what if God wasn't really talking that day?

So it is possible that many things from the Old Testament are not from YHWH, sdqa, but invented by the priests and the government buraucrats.

That is why, if the prophet is trustworthy, I accept those words more from God Yahweh.

The Christian Yahwist

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), March 05, 2005.

Yeah ive considered that too. I mean, Moses died before entering the Promised Land.. due to the water/rock incident.. But im sure theres more to it than that. Who knows..

-- temple (jahsmine@netzero.com), March 06, 2005.

Yes, temple.

According to the egyptians, Pharaoh Menerptah, the son of Rameses II beat the Israelis and other coalitions of Canaanites. He claims Israel is no longer a people.

But Exodus, Numbers, and deuteronomy omit it.

2 Kings also omits Jehu's defeat by the Assyrians' They show Jehu giving the Assyrians tribute. This was around 845 BC.

So in essence, then , the Bible also does some editing of painful defeats.

The first will not look good on Moses. This expains clearly why Moses had a hard time trying to ammass troops to take over canaan even though the Egyptians had beat up Canaanite armies. He also had lost many men.

The Christian Yahwist

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), March 07, 2005.

Hmm.. while we're on this subject, i found it pretty ironic that God wanted the israelites to make war with the canaanites (spelling..?)

Im sure there were some good-hearted men and innocent women and children in Canaan at the time..? That just doesnt make sense..

-- temple (jahsmine@netzero.com), March 07, 2005.

It's true, Temple.

Judah, the son of Jacob, married a canaanite. Jacob's brother married also canaanites.

If the story is true in Mathew, then rahab, another Cannanite married into Jesus line. So was the Hittite Batsheba who married King David.

If cannanites were 100% evil, then why did God allow them to join Jesus line of descent?

The Christian Yahwist

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), March 07, 2005.