Hi SDQA, so good to see your posts again. (We've been worried about you) You asked, "why did he need to go throught this for ME? why did he need to die?"

Because sin demands justice! Crime demands justice! Pain demands justice! Sorrow demands justice! Every dirty rotten pain in this world, every corruption, every baby that dies at birth, every creature born for the sole purpose of becoming nothing more than food, demands justice! The earth screams in agony at the wretchedness brought upon it by sin . . . your sin and my sin! DEATH being the ultimate consequence and the ultimate foe.

Justice is met in Christ. He "atoned" for the grievious error of man AND ITS CONSEQUENCES -- that being eternal death -- by way of His own blood. He chose this method, SDQA. It is His creation, you and I are His creatures, and He chose to PARTICIPATE in the agony of this "field of misery" by His death on the cross.

Sure, He could have taken the easy way, but He chose to EXPERIENCE the agony of our suffering. Do you see? Because He is gracious, loving and kind, He chose to condescend to our world and "enter time" with us, to redeem us, and make us whole, to give us new life -- like breathing holy air into the corpse of a dead man.

*********

"Translation" of the necrosis of the soul into that of beauty and health and holiness is the fruit of His labor on the cross! REDEMPTION! It is available to all . . . not in theory, not based on hearsay, but it is the present tense REALITY available to all to ask.

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), February 24, 2005

Answers

"Hi SDQA, so good to see your posts again. (We've been worried about you) You asked, "why did he need to go throught this for ME? why did he need to die?"

Because sin demands justice! Crime demands justice! Pain demands justice! Sorrow demands justice! Every dirty rotten pain in this world, every corruption, every baby that dies at birth, every creature born for the sole purpose of becoming nothing more than food, demands justice! The earth screams in agony at the wretchedness brought upon it by sin . . . your sin and my sin! DEATH being the ultimate consequence and the ultimate foe.

Justice is met in Christ. He "atoned" for the grievious error of man AND ITS CONSEQUENCES -- that being eternal death -- by way of His own blood. He chose this method, SDQA. It is His creation, you and I are His creatures, and He chose to PARTICIPATE in the agony of this "field of misery" by His death on the cross.

Sure, He could have taken the easy way, but He chose to EXPERIENCE the agony of our suffering. Do you see? Because He is gracious, loving and kind, He chose to condescend to our world and "enter time" with us, to redeem us, and make us whole, to give us new life -- like breathing holy air into the corpse of a dead man. "

[but if he is almighty,couldn't he experience the agony of suffering without having anything causing him to suffer?

so he actually chose that he had to die so we can have our sins forgiven and have eternal life

why did he say ''father why have you forsaken me' on the cross,when he knew that was going to happen?

and if jesus was god in a human form,why didn't he say this instead of saying that he is the son of god?

and how could he pray to god if he is god himself?]-sdqa

-- sdqa (sdqa@sdqa.Com), February 24, 2005.

Good questions, sdqa. I'll take a crack at a couple of responses.

Q: "but if he is almighty,couldn't he experience the agony of suffering without having anything causing him to suffer?"

A: The purpose of Jesus's suffering wasn't to experience the pain, it was the act of bleeding and dying that attoned for our sins and thus reconciled us to His Father in Heaven. Our sins deserve death. The only way to "pay" for our sins was for Jesus to die - in reality, not just to experience the feelings associated with it.

Q: "so he actually chose that he had to die so we can have our sins forgiven and have eternal life"

A: yes.

Q: "why did he say ''father why have you forsaken me' on the cross,when he knew that was going to happen?"

A: Jesus knew why. He specifically quoted that sentence from Psalm 22, which was originally a prophetic insight given to King David about the Messiah. Jews knew the quote referred to the Messiah, so Jesus used it to let them know that He was that prophecised Messiah. So in reality, He said it to point them to salvation.

Q: "and if jesus was god in a human form,why didn't he say this instead of saying that he is the son of god?"

A: Jesus called Himself both "Son of man" and "Son of God". When He says that He is the Son of Man, we realize He is saying that He is human - a "son" of man can't be anything other than man. In the same way, a "Son" of God can't be anything other than God. That's why we teach that Jesus was both fully man and fully God - 2 natures in one.

Q: "and how could he pray to god if he is god himself"

A: He was praying to His Father in Heaven. He is One with His Father and thus is God, but they are also distinct persons. That is the mystery of the Trinity.

Hope that helps.

David

-- non-Catholic Christian (no@spam.com), February 24, 2005.

That is why Jesus wasn't God, sdqa, because he prayed to God.

But Jesus chose that path. He had been warned not to go to Jerusalem. He chose to go. Did God abandon him? No. Even when Jesus chose to go there, God made sure no one forgot about Jesus' death even though he was innocent of the charges against him.

In John he says he is goinb back to his God.

The Christian Yahwist

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), February 24, 2005.

Elpidio needs to read the first chapter of John to see clear testimony that the "Word" of God, Jesus, is indeed God. That's the reason he isn't a Christian and much of what he teaches is heresy. Be careful taking counsel from him.

David

-- non-Catholic Christian (no@spam.com), February 24, 2005.

En arche en ho logos kai ho logos an pros ton theon, kai[the article ho is missing here, David] theos en ho logos.(John i.1).

This means that in Greek , no ho(The) next to the word means the article is a or an in English.

I know John too, David. I knew this passage since 1982.

The Christian Yahwist

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), February 24, 2005.

So you've been misinterpreting it for 23 years? That's a long time to hold on to an error that is so obvious.

The Jehovah Witness's also mistranslate that verse in the same way. Here's a small sample of comments from highly regarded Biblical scholars regarding this mistranslation:

Dr. Walter R. Martin - "The translation...'a god' instead of 'God' is erroneous and unsupported by any good Greek scholarship, ancient or contemporary and is a translation rejected by all recognized scholars of the Greek language many of whom are not even Christians, and cannot fairly be said to be biased in favor of the orthodox contention."

Dr. William Barclay of the University of Glasgow, Scotland - "The deliberate distortion of truth by this sect is seen in their New testament translations. John 1:1 is translated: '...the Word was a god,' a translation which is grammatically impossible...It is abundantly clear that a sect which can translate the New Testament like that is intellectually dishonest."

Dr. F. F. Bruce of the University of Manchester, England - "Much is made by Arian amateur grammarians of the omission of the definite article with 'God' in the phrase 'And the Word was God.' Such an omission is common with nouns in a predicative construction...'a god' would be totally indefensible."

[Barclay and Bruce are generally regarded as Great Britain's leading Greek scholars. Both have New Testament translations in print!] There were many more quotes from various Greek scholars, all of whom condemn your mistranslation. I just cut a few out from the middle to demonstrate the point. That is the danger you fall into when you take it upon yourself to translate, especially when one is not qualified to do it. I'm not qualified either, but I have enough common sense to know my limitations and leave that kind of work up to those who do.

David

-- non-Catholic Christian (no@spam.com), February 24, 2005.

Hi SDQA,

He chose to fully experience the weight of sin vis-a-vis the "horror of the cross." He had to know first hand, as Jesus Christ the God/man, what are the fully ramifications of sin.

I have often wondered the same thing. Why didn't Christ allow himself to be killed "easily" or quickly, painlessly. But you see if He had not chosen the way of the cross he would never have fully experienced the pains of mankind? He would not be able to identify with you or me in this agony of life.

But NOW, because he suffered so completely, he can completely identify with our suffering . . . completely!

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), February 24, 2005.

Readers,

Unfortunately this forum closed due to maintence problems with the server.

If you are interested in continuing a discussion, you can go to this board:

http://p221.ezboard.com/bthechristianforum

The Christian Forum

Or try our URL Forwarder www.bluespun.com

www.Bluespun.com

This was our back up board, but now we all relocated here.

Hope to see you there! All links lead to the same place!

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@gmail.com), November 28, 2005.

There is nthing amateurish, David, when jesus himself calls cGod his God in the same Gospel of John.

Even if the writer who combined I john with Mark to create the Gospel of John made that remark in John 1.1

Jesus never said it. Instead, Jesus said in the same Gospel: Jhn 20:16 Jesus saith unto her, Mary. She turned herself, and saith unto him, Rabboni; which is to say, Master.

Jhn 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and [to] my God, and your God.

If Jesus calls him his God, then God Yahweh is not Jesus.

The Christian Yahwist

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), March 01, 2005.