Help!

I can't remember the Catholic response to the "Call no man Father" argument. I've got a Protestant on another message board saying that there are discrepancies between the Bible and Catholic teachings. I've already explained to him the fact that the Bible came from the Church and not the other way around, but I can't remember what the argument is in defense of calling a priest Father.

Thank you.

-- JJ (nospam@nospam.com), February 23, 2005

Answers

bump

-- Bump (bump@bump.bump), February 23, 2005.

Paul said "I became your father in Christ Jesus through the gospel." 1 Cor. 4:15.

I have also heard an argument about there being many differents words for father, but I do not know enough to explain that argument thoroughly.

Tim Kirschenheiter

-- Tim K. (tk4386@juno.com), February 23, 2005.

(Catechism of the Catholic Church #1465)

When he celebrates the sacrament of Penance, the priest is fulfilling the ministry of the Good Shepherd who seeks the lost sheep, of the Good Samaritan who binds up wounds, of the Father who awaits the prodigal son and welcomes him on his return, and of the just and impartial judge whose judgment is both just and merciful. The priest is the sign and the instrument of God's merciful love for the sinner.

-- Tony (apcambell@hotmail.com), February 23, 2005.

(Paul Whitcomb, The Catholic Church has the Answer)

Catholics call their priests "Father" because in all matters pertaining to Christ's holy faith they perform the duties of a father, representing God. The priest is the agent of the Christian's supernatural birth and sustainance in the world. "Father" is a title which does not conflict in the slightest with Matthew 23:9. Christ forbids the Christian to acknowledge any fatherhood which conflicts with the Fatherhood of God -- just as He commands the Christian to "hate" his father, mother, wife, and his own life, insofar as these conflict with the following of Christ (Luke 14:26). But Christ does not forbid Christians to call His own representatives by the name of "Father." Catholic priests share in the priesthood of Jesus Christ (not a human priesthood), and their sacred ministry partakes of the Fatherhood of God. Like St. Paul (himself a Catholic priest), every Catholic priest can refer to the souls he has spiritually begotten as his children in Christ (1 Cor. 4:14). St. Paul considered himself to be the spiritual father, in Christ, of the Corinthians: "For if you have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet not many fathers. For in Christ Jesus, by the gospel, I have begotten you" (1 Cor 4:15). The title of "Father" is entirely proper for an ordained priest of Jesus Christ.

-- Tony (apcambell@hotmail.com), February 24, 2005.

Jesus' instruction was intended to indicate that ALL authority comes from our heavenly Father. I am not called Father for my own sake, but rather for the Office I hold, who I represent.

Back at you JJ: Jesus also said not to call anybody instructor, or teacher (doctor), and last but certainly not least He asks the 'rich young man' when he addressed Jesus as "good teacher" why he called Him good because nobody is Good but God alone. What say you on such?

-- Fr. Paul (pjdoucet@hotmail.com), February 24, 2005.

A couple other examples of the word Father used in the New Testament.

1 Thes 2:11 - As you know in what manner, entreating and comforting you,(as a father doth his children,)

St. Paul also began his defense against the crowd in Acts 22:1 - Men, brethren, and fathers, hear ye the account which I now give unto you.

-- DJ (newfiedufie@msn.com), February 24, 2005.

Also, in Philemon, Paul says, "I urge you on behalf on Onesimus, whose father I have become in my imprisonment" Philemon 10.

Tim Kirschenheiter

-- Tim K. (tk4386@juno.com), February 24, 2005.

First of all the admonition to not call men fathers is in the Gospel of Matthew. For extra credit, pick up this Gospel and read it through one time, counting how many times the Evangelist describes people as "fathers", while keeping in mind that IF Our Lord had truely meant that there was some intrinsic badness in calling men fathers, that Matthew wouldn't have broken Our Lord's command 30 years later by routinely calling men Fathers while writing the Gospel!

Secondly, notice all the times that Our Lord himself calls men who are not God, "fathers" - especially in his parables, such as in the Prodigal Son.

If calling mere mortals father was wrong, then Our Lord would not have called the prodigal son's daddy, "father".

And finally, Our Lord quoted the Ten Commandments without negative comment on the 4th commandment of honoring father and mother.

-- Joe (joestong@yahoo.com), February 24, 2005.

Thanks everyone. You've given me all the ammo I need!

God Bless!

-- JJ (nospam@nospam.com), February 24, 2005.

While you are at it you might ask your friend if there are any good teachers in his church. When he says yes, they have wonderful teachers, point out to him that the verse immediately preceding "call no man on earth your father" says "call no man on earth your teacher". Maybe that will help him to put this text in perspective.

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), February 24, 2005.

Oooooh, dang! That would have been a good one! Trouble is, this guy claims not to belong to any denomination, so I'm not so sure I can use this on him.

But I'm definitely going to give it a try. I'll keep you posted!

Thanks Paul!

-- JJ (nospam@nospam.com), February 24, 2005.

We know for certain that in many discourses with the people Jesus spoke rhetorically. We might find a few easily, but ''Call no man father'' is a perfect example.

Just advise this Pal to look up the definition of rhetoric. For instance; ask him if Solomon the King of Israel actually wore ''really drab'' clothes?

Because Jesus said VERY CLEARLY: ''Consider how the lilies grow-- I say to you not even Solomon in all his glory was arrayed like one of these,'' (Luke 12, :27). Solomon had no nice clothes, says Our Lord. It must have been so! -- We call this RHETORIC.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), February 24, 2005.

I said I'd keep you posted, so here goes:

The person I was arguing with dropped out of the thread, so I never got a chance to present him with these arguments.

Still, I thank you all for your responses.

-- JJ (nospam@nospam.com), March 03, 2005.

OK, I missed the bus this time, but here’s my 2c for the next time someone comes up with this so-called “argument”, which is surprisingly common, even though it would have to be one of the dumbest “arguments” against the Catholic Church ever invented. The perfect illustration of just how totally misled people can become when they try to privately interpret verses of the Bible on their own, without any reference to the Church which produced the Bible.

What do you call your mother’s husband??

Actually “Father” for priests is just a customary title invented by lay people. It was first used for the mendicant friar-priests of the Middle Ages who were models of holiness, and eventually spread to all priests. The Church’s official form of address for priests, still used in official documents, is “Sir” (“Dominus”).

-- Steve (55555@aol.com), March 03, 2005.

Thanks Steve. I'm re-saving this page to include your answer. That's a good one. (and so simple!)

-- JJ (nospam@nospam.com), March 04, 2005.

Actually “Father” for priests is just a customary title invented by lay people. It was first used for the mendicant friar-priests of the Middle Ages who were models of holiness, and eventually spread to all priests. The Church’s official form of address for priests, still used in official documents, is “Sir” (“Dominus”).

Steve, where did you find this information? It conflicts with what I have read in the past. My understanding is that, in the early Church, each bishop (a spiritual father) was called "papas" (Greek for "father"), and that eventually the term was extended upward and downward and even removed as a bishop's title. It was extended upward to the Holy "Father," the Pope (which word comes from "papas"). And it was extended downward to priests, who are local "extensions" of the original "papas," the bishop.

-- (OK@lets.go), March 05, 2005.

“Okletsgo”, it is true that many (probably not all) bishops were once called “papa” and this title later became restricted to the bishop of Rome only. If the title was removed from bishops, why would it be extended to priests? “Papa” (= “Daddy”) is a different word from “father”. (The Latin word for “father” is “pater”, not “papa”, which comes from the Greek word for “father”, “pappas”. “Pappas” is often used to address a Greek Orthodox or Russian Orthodox priest.)

It’s ironic that the people who make this “argument” against the Church are usually English-speaking protestants, because the custom of calling priests “Father” began in the British Isles and has spread only later and incompletely to non-English-speaking countries, where priests are still often addressed as “Signor”, “Don”, “Monsieur” etc. It was possibly derived from the term “Friar”, which in turn is from the Middle English and French “Frere” = “Brother”, used for monks (only some of whom are priests) of the mendicant orders. In the British Isles these are still referred to as the Grey Friars (Franciscans), Black Friars (Dominicans) etc.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01137a.htm

Prior to that priests in England were generally addressed as “Doctor” (i.e. “teacher”). Btw all medical practitioners were priests, this is why medical practitioners in the British Commonwealth are still called “Doctor” even though most don’t have university doctorate degrees, but surgeons are called “Mister” because the medieval surgeons were laymen.

-- Steve (55555@aol.com), March 06, 2005.

but why calling them father if jesus said not to?...can't you find some other title for your leader?

-- sdqa (sdqa@sdqa.Com), March 07, 2005.

sdqa, do you actually read the responses before you post?

-- DJ (newfiedufie@msn.com), March 07, 2005.

DJ-

I am pretty sure he doesn't because his question was answered in several different ways before he posted his question.

-- Tim K. (tk4386@juno.com), March 07, 2005.