Since the new mass came in it was said exclusively in the vernacular for fourteen years. After that it was said in the indult but many priests never celebrate the indult.

Question: Do they teach Latin in the seminaries anymore. How thoroughly is it taught.

-- Tyler (Wampum@Yahoo.com), February 19, 2005

Answers

I beleive they still teahc it, and oem locaiosn ue the Inult Mass by dispensaiton fromt he Bishop, but many bihsops deny thir diocee this Mass.

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), February 19, 2005.

Latin. not only for the sake of their theological studies, but also for their future ministry? The curricula of some of the largest U.S. seminaries for the diocesan clergy show that—excepting the Pontifical North American College in Rome—the Church’s well-grounded canonical and historical reasons for promoting Latin studies are more apt to be honored in the breach. The approach of Chicago’s Mundelein Seminary, the nation’s largest, is typical. Its pre- theology program consists of a three-quarter academic year in which 33 quarter-hours of philosophy studies and 21 quarter-hours of religious studies are required. The academic catalogue is quick to add that “there are also opportunities for cultural enrichment study, for language studies (Latin, Greek, Hebrew, Spanish), and for limited electives depending on the student’s interests and available time.” And even if an industrious student were to find the time to study Latin, the seminary only offers two courses in its entire six- year program (Latin I and II). Notre Dame Seminary in New Orleans is even more niggardly in its offerings: For the entire course of pre- theology and theology studies, only two elective credit hours of Latin are offered. Mount Angel Seminary in Oregon does not require Latin, though it does offer 12 semester hours. Interestingly enough, it does require 15 hours of Spanish and Hispanic culture and ministry studies.

-- Pete (Chas@charlie.com), February 19, 2005.

As far as I know there is an order called the Fraternity of the Society of St. Peter that still teaches Latin, Hebrew and Greek to their seminarians. This order was started by Pope John Paul II to promote the Latin liturgy of 1962.

-- Andrew (andyhbk96@hotmail.com), February 21, 2005.

For myself, I wouldn't want to be taking Latin, Greek AND Hebrew at the same time as taking a full load of other courses. There are only so many hours in a day, and learning a language requires time as much as anything else. I'd rather have them focus on Latin, and let seminarians choose whether or not to also pursue one or possibly both of the others at their will. Better to have them very good at one than miserable at three.

Frank

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), February 21, 2005.

"What happened to Latin"?

Nothing.

That's one of the good things about it; it's a dead language. Excellent for use in the expression of dogma in order to preserve proper meaning, to act as a hedge against evolution and devolution of meaning.

-- Emerald (em@cox.nett), February 21, 2005.

For the masses which are spoken in Latin, do you believe that they ought to have an interpretor to speak it in English, or the language of the respective country where it is spoken? This brings up the matter of tounges and interpretation. Of course, that's another whole big issue as to what tongues actually are, but just curious to know the church's stand on the matter. I imagine that it categorizes foreign language as not being tongue speaking, and therefore the point doesn't apply.

-- Oliver Fischer (spicenut@excite.com), February 21, 2005.

A Latin Mass with simultaneous translation into the vernacular? Why not just say the Mass in the vernacular, if it's your purpose to have it heard in the vernacular? There is no similarity between this proposed scenario and the gift of tongues. Tongues is not translated because usually no-one present understands the literal meaning of the language being spoken (though I have seen exceptions to this on several occasions). The Church's stand on charisms of the Holy Spirit is the same as its stand on anything else that God offers to us. We should be open to it.

Catechism of the Catholic Church, section 800: "Charisms are to be accepted with gratitude by the person who receives them and by all members of the Church as well. They are a wonderfully rich grace for the apostolic vitality and for the holiness of the entire body of Christ, provided they really are genuine gifts of the Holy Spirit and are used in full conformity with authentic promptings of this same Spirit, that is, in keeping with charity, the true measure of all charisms.

CCC, section 2003: "Whatever their character - sometimes it is extraordinary, such as the gift of miracles or of tongues - charisms are oriented toward sanctifying grace and are intended for the common good of the Church."

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), February 21, 2005.

Oliver..back in the day when all of the masses everywhere were in Latin, there was a missal which people used. On one side of the page, the prayers were in Latin..on the other side of the page there was the vernacular translation. As long as a person could read their own language, nobody had any difficulty following the mass.

Since people went to mass every week..it didn't take too long to learn the Latin of the mass by the time you were still in grade school.

Catholics nowdays use a paper "missal" during mass with all of the prayers written down for them, as well as the particular prayers for that particular mass. As long as you can read in your own language, you have no problem following the mass.

In days gone by, people who could not read were taught the prayers of the mass by the priest and the nuns. There were many of them around to do so.

Today, if someone cannot read, there are plenty of lay people available to help them follow the mass..partcularly with the prayers which differ from mass to mass which are limited to repetitive sentences of responsorial prayers. Easily done.

-- Lesley (martchas@hotmail.com), February 22, 2005.

As a side-note to what Lesley has written:

I have an aunt who joined the Air Force during WWII and stayed with it through the late 1950s. She did a lot of traveling throughout Europe during those years, and has very fond memories of being able to go to Mass in any country, and not knowing any language besides English, being able to follow and understand the same Mass that everyone else was hearing, because she had her missal with her.

She says it was then that the word "Catholic" really hit home with her-- you get a real and extremely strong sense of unity and universality when you realize that every Catholic all over the world is attending exactly the same Mass no matter where you go; when you can sit in a big church in Paris or in Rome or wherever, surrounded by Catholic tourists from all over the world, and everyone is "in the same boat," reading the Latin in their missal and the translation in their own language.

Of course, our Faith is also universal and we're just as united by it, but as my aunt pointed out, when you're in a foreign country, you don't go around comparing notes with the natives about your religion. Although you can assume that all the Catholics believe the same that you do, you can really only derive an intellectual sense of unity from that. It was at Mass that the sense of unity became tangible.

-- JJ (nospam@nospam.com), February 22, 2005.

I find that sense of unity just as tangible today. Wherever I go, I find the same Holy Sacrifice of the Mass and the same unity of worship, regardless of what language it is celebrated in. How could it be otherwise? There is only one Mass. It's unity is not altered in any way but such externals as language. Personally I greatly prefer understanding the prayers of the Mass in my own parish in my own language, rather than the universality of a worldwide common language that no-one understands, worldwide. Just use the missal, they tell us, and you can translate as you go along. Yes, I know I could. In fact, I did so for a number of years before Holy Mother Church in her great wisdom relieved me of that burden, allowing me fuller participation in the worship of the Church. For that I am ever thankful.

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), February 22, 2005.

And when I myself attended Mass in Japan and in Germany (I know nothing of Japanese, and at that time, very little German), I can assure you that my sense of unity was purely intellectual!

I thank God every day that our Holy Father the Pope in his great wisdom not only permits, but also encourages the Latin Mass.

(Here's something else to think about: In our own language we hear every human expression, from the loftiest (occasionally), all the way down to the most vulgar (frequently) and blasphemous. On the other hand, for those of us who hear Latin only at Mass and nowhere else, Latin is still quite clean.)

-- JJ (nospam@nospam.com), February 22, 2005.

There is no vulgar or blasphemous content, not frequently or EVER, in the Novus Ordo Missal.

Latin is a beautiful and very refined language today. In the days of the infant Catholic faith, the word for it was VULGAR. The Vulgate, our Latin transcription of Holy Scripture, for instance. Yet improper Latin was never adopted into the sacred mysteries. Improper vernacular language isn't in them now.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), February 22, 2005.

OY, EUGENE!!! HOW DO YOU DO IT??????? It seems as if you scan a post very quickly, pick out a couple words, and somehow invent a message for yourself, one which is entirely different from the message that was actually posted!!!!

I was talking about the English that we hear in television, movies, the workplace, the streets, etc.

In our daily lives, we hear the best and the worst that our language has to offer. But not so with Latin (unless we go out of our way to learn Latin cuss words). If we limit ourselves to the Latin that we hear in Church, those of us who do hear it, then for us, Latin is like a clean, untainted vehicle for God's Word. That's part of its beauty.

I never said or even implied that there was any foul language in the Novus Ordo Missal. Why would you even think that???? I really don't understand how your mind works!!! But from what I can observe, it's pretty frightening!

And the word "vulgar," in the days of the infant Catholic faith, meant "of the common people." From the Latin word "vulgus" (common people). It had nothing to do with the modern meaning of the word.

I really don't know why I'm posting this. You probably are going to read this properly, either. You'll just catch a couple words and accuse me of hating the Pope, most likely...

-- JJ (nospam@nospam.com), February 22, 2005.

No, JJ
I understand perfectly. You shouldn't be alarmed; I didn't mean it as you infer. It wouldn't be fair to you or to the Latin Rite of the Mass, which I think is wonderful.

But I thought that SOME might infer from your message that the Novus Ordo MISSAL doesn't stand comparison with the Latin. Surely you're aware of those in our forum only too anxious to inflate the value of Latin because of Vatican II? What with your description of the vernacular as, ''Every human expression from the loftiest (occasionally), all the way down to the most vulgar (frequently) and blasphemous,'' --many could infer this all seeps into our Novus Ordo Missal by osmosis. I only posted so the specifics of your message won't be misunderstood. (You're too easily alarmed. I'm a friend, not a policeman.)

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), February 22, 2005.

Eugene,

Phew! You're much less scary now.

Benediceris!

-- JJ (nospam@nospam.com), February 22, 2005.

Oops. Make that

Benedicaris.

-- jj (nospam@nospam.com), February 22, 2005.

Va bene-- Ciao!

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), February 22, 2005.