Praying to/through/with "saints and blesseds"

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[Folks, I am copying the following indented messages from the February 13 saints/blesseds-of-the-day thread. That thread is not the right place for the debate that got started. Also, I believe that more people will see, and contribute to, this new thread than the other one. The first message is from a visiting non-Catholic student, Katie. She is reacting to the list beatified and canonized people whom we commemorate on February 13. She uses some abbreviations, such as "xtian" for "Christian" and "m8" for "mate."]


give me strength... it is fine to agknowledge people doing Gods work but they are no greater a saint than i am. there is n such thing as a good xtian.. maybe we should stop praying to rotting bodies and start praying to jesus who is alive and in heaven!

and thats what a teenage xtian thinks...

kt

XxX

-- katie (jc_died_4_me@hotmail.com), February 16, 2005.


Given time, Katie, you'll learn. JFG

-- ("jfgecik@hotmail.com), February 16, 2005.

what will i learn? how pray to God the way that we were instructed -> through jesus and him alone?

-- katie (jc_died_4_me@hotmail.com), February 17, 2005.

Oh, I see, Katie. In other words, you have never asked anyone to pray for you, and you have never prayed for anyone (at his/her request)?

The first thing that you need to be aware of is that, to the vast majority of Christians, "praying" is not an act of "adoration" or "worship," but an act of "communication." Thus, if you have asked someone to pray for you, then your request was a way of "praying" (communicating) through that second person (an intercessor) who then prayed to God through Jesus (the mediator).

That is exactly what I and other Catholics sometimes do. We sometimes pray (communicate our needs, our thanks, etc.) through a second human person (an interceding saint) who then prays to God through Jesus (the "only mediator between God and man"). As you probably know, making intercession is not only permitted but encouraged in the Bible.

Please notice that I twice said that we "sometimes" pray through an intercessor. Every day, though, we also pray directly to God through Jesus. If you would attend Mass some day, you would hear various formal prayers to God the Father that end with words like, "Grant this through Christ our Lord. Amen."

Katie, you are very young, so I imagine that no one has ever explained these things to you before. Instead, you have probably heard inaccurate things about Catholicism from non-Catholics (or ex- Catholics who never really understood the religion that they abandoned). It is good that you are here, to get the facts about Catholicism from Catholics. I am confident that, some day, you will become a Catholic, because you are not lukewarm, but really care about the truth. And only Catholicism has the fullness of religious truth, with no error mixed in. The Catholic Church is the only church that Jesus founded, and he wants every person on Earth today to belong to the Catholic Church.

-- ("jfgecik@hotmail.com), February 17, 2005.


but the one thing you miss is that i don't pray to DEAD people (saints) will you prayu through me when i am dead? doubt it. i pray for people and with people and i am fully aware that pray is not just worship it is comunticating because i conunicate with my dad every day (or so!)

story.....

i broke into my school church ( i had permission but i had to use the teacher only code but anyways) i was with the with a m8 (who is a christian) i was sitting and i was crying but she left me cos we always do that unless we feel god telling us to ask whats wrong.... we leave and go to tea (im at a boarding school) that evening she texts me say

"why were you crying?"

i text back

"oh i was arguing with God BAD idea you always lose!"

now you may say why argue with god? well i know that he is the creator of the universe and all of that but he is my dad and if he tells me to do something that i dont want to do i will tell him so!

moving on....

"And only Catholicism has the fullness of religious truth, with no error mixed in."

that is VERY Arrogant cos i am not saying the my church is tyhe right way... we need to get out of this mode "im the only way" because jesus is the only way "i am the way the truth and the life noone goes to the father except through me"..... no saints no idols no priest no nothing just through JESUS!

-- kt (jc_died_4_me@hotmail.com), February 18, 2005.



-- J. F. Gecik ("jfgecik@hotmail.com), February 18, 2005

Answers

Katie, you wrote: "but the one thing you miss is that i don't pray to DEAD people (saints) will you prayu through me when i am dead? doubt it."

I didn't "miss" anything. I don't pray to "dead people" either. I ask for the intercession of LIVING souls that are in heaven. Perhaps you are not aware of the fact that the souls of people who are saved go to heaven? They are not annihilated, to be revived later. They are not in some kind of slumber inside (or outside) the buried bodies that they once animated. The Bible reveals that the souls of saints are in Heaven right now!

Thus, you were wrong to say (in your first message) that we should "stop praying to rotting bodies." [Sorry that I overlooked that mistake earlier, or I would have corrected it sooner than now.] We are not praying to anyone's body.

Last time, I wrote: "... only Catholicism has the fullness of religious truth, with no error mixed in."
To this, you responded: "that is VERY Arrogant cos i am not saying the my church is the right way..."

Katie, you are not saying that your church [sic] is the right way, because you don't know if it is or not (or perhaps you even know that you disagree with some of its teachings). But I know, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that my Church "is the right way," and I reject none of her teachings.

It is not "arrogant" to speak the simple truth, and my words were the truth. Please read my words carefully. My words did not say there is no truth at all in other religions or in communities of non- Catholic Christians. And my words did not say that only "card- carrying Catholics" will go to heaven. But God wants everyone on Earth to find the fullness of the truth and no error mixed in -- and I explained where that can be found (only in the Catholic Church).

You then said, "we need to get out of this mode 'im the only way' because jesus is the only way 'i am the way the truth and the life noone goes to the father except through me'..... no saints no idols no priest no nothing just through JESUS!"

You have misquoted me. I did not say that "im the only way." I said nothing about myself. Instead I said that the Catholic Church is the only church that Jesus founded -- and that he made it "the way" by which he wants people to be saved. Yes, He Himself is "the Way," but the Church that Jesus founded, says St. Paul, is the Body of Christ -- his visible instrument for salvation. The "way" to Jesus is through his Catholic Church. [Also, what's the big idea of mentioning "idols." The Catholic Church condemns idols. You must be listening to, or reading, anti-Catholic lies.]

God bless you.
John

-- ("jfgecik@hotmail.com), February 18, 2005.


Katie, I forgot to ask you today (as I did yesterday) to refrain from defacing the "saints/blessed" threads with useless and disrespectful comments as you did here. I don't want to have to bother the moderator to delete your messages. Thank you. JFG

-- ("jfgecik@hotmail.com), February 18, 2005.

Very interesting debate. I have some questions for Katie:

-- Do you believe that man has an immortal soul?

-- If that is true, where are the souls of dead people?

-- Did they die together with their bodies?

-- If this last is true what happened to the Good Thief who heard from Jesus own maouth the following:

Now one of the criminals hanging there reviled Jesus, saying, "Are you not the Messiah? Save yourself and us." 40 The other, however, rebuking him, said in reply, "Have you no fear of God, for you are subject to the same condemnation? 41 And indeed, we have been condemned justly, for the sentence we received corresponds to our crimes, but this man has done nothing criminal." 42 Then he said, "Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom." 43 He replied to him, "Amen, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise." (Lk 43)

Enrique

-- Enrique Ortiz (eaortiz@yahoo.com), February 18, 2005.


okay ill stop "defacing the boards"

um.. i gonna think bou tmy responce then post... it will make a change! :)

kt

XxX

-- kt (jc_died_4_me@hotmail.com), February 18, 2005.


"The Bible reveals that the souls of saints are in Heaven right now"

reference svp

and i dont think taht u are making it up i just wanna study it!

-- kt (jc_died_4_me@hotmail.com), February 18, 2005.



kt,

Take a look at the quote Enrique posted above about the good thief. Jesus says to him "Amen, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise." This would indicate that, after the thief's death on the cross, his soul will be joining Jesus in heaven.

Also, check out the following links for biblical information regarding the prayer and intercession of the saints:

http://www.staycatholic.com/praying_to_saints.htm

http://www.cin.org/users/james/questions/q040.htm

Hope that helps..

- Sean

-- Sean Cummins (sean@scummins.com), February 18, 2005.


danke

-- kt (jc_died_4_me@hotmail.com), February 18, 2005.

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