Protestant and Catholic belief of salvation

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Jesus died on the cross for us. We all know that, but did we ever think about the circumstances as to why this was all necessary.

He could have made us all like His Blessed Mother, where we would have so much grace that we would not sin. Adam and Eve started out sinless but they were tempted by the serpent and lost Paradise.

It now became a lot more difficult to stay in the state of grace, but Our Lord told us that with each temptation, He would provide us with the means to escape. To a Catholic that means the sacraments. Certainly baptism, confession, and the Holy Eucharist are essential.

I know that Protestants reject that belief, and by declaring the Lord as their Saviour they are justified. But why then did Our Lord offer His Body and Blood. He said “Unless you eat my flesh and drink my blood, you shall not have life in you”. They all said that this is too hard a thing to believe and walked away. Even the apostles were tested but they said “Where then Lord shall we go. You have the words of eternal life”.

-- TC (Treadmill234@south.com), February 05, 2005

Answers

Bump

-- TC (Treadmill234@south.com), February 05, 2005.

Whatever else might be said, the early Church took John 6 literally. In fact, there is no record from the early centuries that implies Christians doubted the constant Catholic interpretation. There exists no document in which the literal interpretation is opposed and only the metaphorical accepted.

Why do Fundamentalists and Evangelicals reject the plain, literal interpretation of John 6? For them, Catholic sacraments are out because they imply a spiritual reality—grace—being conveyed by means of matter. This seems to them to be a violation of the divine plan. For many Protestants, matter is not to be used, but overcome or avoided.

One suspects, had they been asked by the Creator their opinion of how to bring about mankind’s salvation, Fundamentalists would have advised him to adopt a different approach. How much cleaner things would be if spirit never dirtied itself with matter! But God approves of matter—he approves of it because he created it—and he approves of it so much that he comes to us under the appearances of bread and wine, just as he does in the physical form of the Incarnate Christ.

-- TC (Treadmill234@south.com), February 05, 2005.


Is there a "real" presence in the flesh and blood of Christ during observance of the Lord's Supper???

What Are Transubstantiation and Consubstantiation?

-- Kevin Walker ("navyscporetired@comcast.net"), February 05, 2005.


For some reason the link above did not work...

One more try...

Is there a "real" presence in the flesh and blood of Christ during observance of the Lord's Supper???

What Are Transubstantiation and Consubstantiation?

-- Kevin Walker ("navyscporetired@comcast.net"), February 05, 2005.


TC,

Here is the key to what Jesus disciples said, "Where then Lord shall we go. You have the words of eternal life"

-- k ("navyscporetired@comcast.net"), February 05, 2005.



When Jesus multiplied the loaves and fishes were the really eating bread and fish, or just spiritual bread and fish.

I am sure that they did not pick up 12 baskets of "spiritual bread".

-- TC (Treadmill234@south.com), February 05, 2005.


That last post was mine...

My finger is getting much too quick in hitting the "submit" key...

-- Kevin Walker ("navyscporetired@comcast.net"), February 05, 2005.


Incedentlaly, I dotn beleive in "Faih alone"... oen must obey to enter Heaven...

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), February 05, 2005.

"Is there a "real" presence in the flesh and blood of Christ during observance of the Lord's Supper???"

A: Jesus Himself answered that when He said "My flesh is REAL food; My blood is REAL drink". How then can anyone respond by telling Jesus, "No, it isn't REAL food or REAL drink; it is only symbolic food and drink". Shouldn't Jesus know???

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), February 05, 2005.


I htink the issue, form one who doesnt acdpt Transubstantiation, is more of heermunetics, ans as much as Catholis woudl hate ot admit it, the same flows fromt he other end.

You see, it depends. Te bread and juice are "real food". But they are symbolic of the sacrifice.

At leats in this vewiw. when Jesus said "My flesh and blood are real food" he meant it meaphoriclay in his sacrifice, and in our acceptance of faith, in this veiw. More later.

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), February 05, 2005.



But Jesus also said that when we eat His flesh and Blood--we would never hunger or thirst again.

Did he mean that literally also?

Obviously the literal meaning of John 6 is spiritual indeed, because we will never hunger or thirst again spiritually speaking.

His Flesh and Blood are spiritual food for our souls...

It's so obvious.

In fact the Jews understood exactly what Jesus was saying--and it was the real meaning behind Jesus' words that they rejected.

They refused to accept that Jesus was their Messiah who would recue them....

-- (faith01@myway.com), February 05, 2005.


TC wrote, "When Jesus multiplied the loaves and fishes were the really eating bread and fish, or just spiritual bread and fish. I am sure that they did not pick up 12 baskets of "spiritual bread"."

We are not talking about the "loaves and fishes" as it is certain that they really did "physically" eat the "bread" and the "fish"...

Paul wrote, "A: Jesus Himself answered that when He said "My flesh is REAL food; My blood is REAL drink". How then can anyone respond by telling Jesus, "No, it isn't REAL food or REAL drink; it is only symbolic food and drink". Shouldn't Jesus know???"

Yes, Jesus did know that is why He said in John 6:63, "...The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life."

Peter understood this to be true when he said to Jesus in John 6:68, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life."

It is the words which Jesus spoke that give eternal life, not the "phsyical" eating of His body and His blood... Jesus also said in John 12:48-50, "48 He who rejects Me, and does not receive My words, has that which judges him--the word that I have spoken will judge him in the last day. 49 For I have not spoken on My own authority; but the Father who sent Me gave Me a command, what I should say and what I should speak. 50 And I know that His command is everlasting life. Therefore, whatever I speak, just as the Father has told Me, so I speak."

If the "words" that Jesus spoke (as given by God the Father) are what give eternal life (and they do when obeyed--See Heb. 5:8-9), then we will be judged by the words that Jesus spoke just as He said we would be when He returns...

-- Kevin Walker ("navyscporetired@comcast.net"), February 05, 2005.


St. Paul said that he must work out his salvation in fear and trembling. He obviously believed that he could still be lost.

He did not believe in once saved always saved.

-- TC (Treadmill234@south.com), February 05, 2005.


"My flesh and blood are real food" he meant it meaphoriclay in his sacrifice, and in our acceptance of faith, in this veiw. "

A: That's a contradiction in terms. If Jesus had simply said "My flesh is food", then it would be reasonable to consider whether He meant that statement literally or metaphorically - in other words, whether He was speaking of real food or metaphorical food. However, if He had specifically said "My flesh is metaphorical food", that would obviously remove any basis for arguing that he meant real food. And likewise, since He specifically said "My flesh is REAL food", there is no basis for arguing that He was speaking metaphorically. The expression "is real" means "is real, not metaphorical".

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), February 07, 2005.


St. Paul said that he must work out his salvation in fear and trembling. He obviously believed that he could still be lost. He did not believe in once saved always saved.

I agree. There is no reaosn to beleive in "Once saved always saved.".

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), February 07, 2005.



John 6:39

And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day.

-- (faith01@myway.com), February 07, 2005.


To *work out* your salvation (present tense).., means to apply this *deliverance* from the power of sin--to your lives--and become obedient to God.

There is no reason why a true believing Christian would not want to do this. Once we are saved--we have the ability and power in Christ to do His will...and this is what it means to *work out* your salvation., the salvation you received when you were born-again.

-- (faith01@myway.com), February 07, 2005.


When then do we have to fear and tremble? We got it made!

-- TC (Treadmill234@south.com), February 07, 2005.

"And likewise, since He specifically said "My flesh is REAL food", there is no basis for arguing that He was speaking metaphorically. The expression "is real" means "is real, not metaphorical"."

Likewise when Jesus specifically said "It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing." He really did mean what He said didn't He????

So, "really" eating Jesus flesh "profits nothing"...

Jesus said in the latter part of this verse, "The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life."

Obviously Peter knew what Jesus was talking about for he said in John 68, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life."

-- Kevin Walker ("navyscporetired@comcast.net"), February 07, 2005.


Being a Christian is hard work. But because we *fear and tremble*-- (which doesn't carry the same meaning as we think, it means to have a profound reverence toward God, and to tremble before God out of this great awe and respect)--we suffer or work to resist sin and to be more Christ-like in our lives., because this is the will of God and evidence of our faith. We have the power to do this because we have been saved from the power of sin as well as the penalty thereof. We must then follow Jesus or can we really claim to be in Him?

But we don't fear God and remble with fear of not being saved if we don't *earn* it. We work because we are saved, not in order to be saved. Working out our salvation means to do the work we have been empowered to do.

-- (faith01@myway.com), February 07, 2005.


What are you talking about, Faith?

" But we don't fear God and [t]remble with fear of not being saved if we don't *earn* it. We work because we are saved, not in order to be saved. Working out our salvation means to do the work we have been empowered to do. "--Faith.

So, what happens if you don't do your "empowered" work? Are you still "saved"?

.............

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), February 07, 2005.


The better question is, "...if you don't follow God and do His work-- were you ever saved to begin with?"

Salvation comes by faith--and if you have faith in God and have trusted Jesus as your Savior--then why wouldn't yopu accomplish what you have been empowered to accomplish?

I can only think of one reason why someone would/could not follow Jesus.....

-- (faith01@myway.com), February 08, 2005.


So, no work, no Salvation. If a believer cannot show "work", by your measurement, he has no Salvation. Interesting twist.

.........

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), February 08, 2005.


Faith,

Salvation comes by faith-

I know what you are saying, but as a correction, Salvation comes from the Grace of God. No one can earn their Salvation, whether by works or faith, we all fall short of the bar. However, faith (which is externally shown by works) is what we do to ask.

Frank

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), February 10, 2005.


Well Frank,

I am just telling you what the Scriptures reveal. Salvation comes to those who believe in God's Son. Jesus is God's grace--He is our salvation--but we must believe the gospel in order to have this grace applied to us. It is the only work of God that the Bible does say we must do.

John 6:29

Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”

Ephesians 2:8-9

For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith–and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God– not by works, so that no one can boast.

Salvation is a gift to those who will receive it...Him.

***************************

Acts 16:31

They replied, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved–....."

1 Cor 15:1-2

Now, brothers, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.

Romans 1:16-17

I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. For in the gospel a righteousness from God is revealed, a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: “The righteous will live by faith.”

-- (faith01@myway.com), February 10, 2005.


Jesus also says,"Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you."

Does that mean if you don't partake in the Lord's supper you are damned?

'Eat or damned' huh?

I guess "REAL" must mean "real"? Or perhaps 'real' has another meaning? Maybe people would see if they would actually read the rest of the chapter instead of isolating a simple verse and making Christ speak of something he didn't even institute at the time yet.

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), March 07, 2005.


He also said ,"I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever:"

Does forever mean forever? Or was Jesus lying?

-- David Ortiz (cyberpunk1986@hotmail.com), March 07, 2005.


Dave

...and where does that leave the women?!?!?!

more seriously, there are plenty of people who use the fact that the Bible is a narrative, and not a legal code, to tear it apart --- because it has "ostensible" internal conflicts, it must be untrue.

...and also that's why we have so many different takes on the path to salvation.

i guess that the Christian must, therefore, step back a bit and consider the value of his own interpretative and theological/philosophical skills.

not many people do their own conveyancing -- and that's just about a house....yet so many people trust 100% in themselves when it comes to the most important part -- their salvation.

why is that? do you know?

-- Ian (ib@vertifgo.com), March 07, 2005.


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