Apostle Paul and Jesus Teachings have the same value?

Look at the problem we have in many churches today that because of Paul's words, not Jesus words? Women are treated as second class citizens and are not allowed to be pastors or teach men. This is evil, wicked and wrong and not of God who looks at the heart of men and through Jesus Christ sees all his children perfect and equal. That is why Jesus stated in Matthew :

23:1 Then Jesus spoke to the multitudes and to His disciples, 23:2 saying: "The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat. 23:3 "Therefore whatever they tell you to observe, that observe and do, but do not do according to their works; for they say, and do not do. 23:4 "For they bind heavy burdens, hard to bear, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers. 23:5 "But all their works they do to be seen by men. They make their phylacteries broad and enlarge the borders of their garments. 23:6 "They love the best places at feasts, the best seats in the synagogues, 23:7 "greetings in the marketplaces, and to be called by men, 'Rabbi, Rabbi.' 23:8 "But you, do not be called 'Rabbi'; for One is your Teacher, the Christ, and you are all brethren. 23:9 "Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven. 23:10 "And do not be called teachers; for One is your Teacher, the Christ. 23:11 "But he who is greatest among you shall be your servant. 23:12 "And whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted. 23:13 "But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you shut up the kingdom of heaven against men; for you neither go in yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in. 23:14 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you devour widows' houses, and for a pretense make long prayers. Therefore you will receive greater condemnation. 23:15 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you travel land and sea to win one proselyte, and when he is won, you make him twice as much a son of hell as yourselves.

Yes, in God's eyes we are all brethren and equal male and female rich and poor dumb and smart. The confusion with Paul's teaching and words come as a result of Fundamentalist interpretation that all his words were literally inspired by God and God breathed. In actual fact they are in error because they have twisted the word of God that states:

ROM 12:6 Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, let us use them: if prophecy, let us prophesy in proportion to our faith;

1COR 12:10 to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another discerning of spirits, to another different kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues.

1COR 13:2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.

1TM 4:14 Do not neglect the gift that is in you, which was given to you by prophecy with the laying on of the hands of the eldership.

2PT 1:20 knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation,

2PT 1:21 for prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit.

CONTRARY TO FUNDAMENTALIST CHRISTIANS STATED VIEW PROPHECY IS NOT PREACHING IT IS PROPHECY!

So you cannot twist the word of God and say that no Scripture is of any private interpretation or scripture never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit like FundamentalistS do. Scripture contains prophecy and it also contains other things!

The Holy Scriptures, the bible, contain historical events, deeds and words spoken by God, true men of God, and false ones. For example Job comforters, who in reality were his enemies, spoke many words but they were not inspired of God even though the book Job is part of "the Inspired Word of God" which is impossible.

God caused the book of Job to be written but He didn't inspire the words in it because what Job's friend said was evil and wicked! There goes the theory All Scripture is given by inspiration of God. Only Apostle Paul and no one else stated

2TM 3:16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 3:17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.

Again in light of the foolish words spoken by Job's comforter which are part of scripture they were not given by inspiration of God. So Paul's statement is faulty or he didn't convey exactly what he wanted to state? But God's word is true:

Job 42:7 And so it was, after the LORD had spoken these words to Job, that the LORD said to Eliphaz the Temanite, "My wrath is aroused against you and your two friends, for you have not spoken of Me what is right, as My servant Job has. 42:8 "Now therefore, take for yourselves seven bulls and seven rams, go to My servant Job, and offer up for yourselves a burnt offering; and My servant Job shall pray for you. For I will accept him, lest I deal with you according to your folly; because you have not spoken of Me what is right, as My servant Job has."

For me it's quite simple whatever the LORD or Jesus spoke in the bible is more important than whatever Paul or others have spoken. But men always want to worship the golden calf instead of God and they want to worship and obey the words of Paul instead of the words of Jesus who said that His words were the most important:

Matthew 7:24 "Therefore whoever hears these sayings of Mine, and does them, I will liken him to a wise man who built his house on the rock: 7:25 "and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it did not fall, for it was founded on the rock. 7:26 "But everyone who hears these sayings of Mine, and does not do them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand: 7:27 "and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it fell. And great was its fall."

It's to be noted that Apostle Paul never wrote or spoke in the bible and said the Lord has said.... which true prophets who do speak in the name of the Lord do even though apostle Paul was a prophet and teacher before he was called to be an apostle!

ACTS 13:1 Now in the church that was at Antioch there were certain prophets and teachers: Barnabas, Simeon who was called Niger, Lucius of Cyrene, Manaen who had been brought up with Herod the tetrarch, and Saul.

God has made it so that we are to live by every word that proceeds out of His mouth and not the mouth of others. We are to live by the Rhema word and put the Logos word into are hearts until it becomesa Rhema word. We are to walk and live in the Spirit and not the flesh! God's word is true:

MT 4:4 But He answered and said, "It is written, 'Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.' "

Colossians 2:6 As you have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in Him, 2:7 rooted and built up in Him and established in the faith, as you have been taught, abounding in it with thanksgiving. 2:8 Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ. 2:9 For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily; 2:10 and you are complete in Him, who is the head of all principality and power.

-- Jim Hank (psalm18@mail.com), February 01, 2005

Answers

That's true, Jim Hank.

Paul was writing in such a way to make sure thae Romans did not persecute the christians. But in doing so he made slavery remain for over 1800 years among Christians.

In addition, by accomodating Jewish practices where women have an inferiority status be part of church services, something which was opposite among the Greeks and Romans where women enjoyed more rights, he has perpetuated, even into our days the idea that woman's place is not as important as that of a male before God .

I disagreed with Paul on those two instances.

But on this one, whether Paul was a prophet: It's to be noted that Apostle Paul never wrote or spoke in the bible and said the Lord has said.... which true prophets who do speak in the name of the Lord do even though apostle Paul was a prophet and teacher before he was called to be an apostle!

what I can say is that Paul had dreams of the things he had to do. One where he was told to preach in the name of Jesus. Acts 9.

Act 9:4 And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?

Act 9:5 And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: [it is] hard for thee to kick against the pricks.

Act 9:6 And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord [said] unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do.

Another where he was told to preach to the Greeks(Macedonians).

Act 16:9 And a vision appeared to Paul in the night; There stood a man of Macedonia, and prayed him, saying, Come over into Macedonia, and help us.

It came true right away: Act 16:14 And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God, heard [us]: whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul.

Another not to preach in Asia.

Thus, Paul was commisiones to preach.

The Christian Yahwist

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), February 01, 2005.

Apostle Paul and Jesus Teachings have the same value?

Of course they do Jim, Because Jesus is speaking only what the Father has told Him to say., and this same Father is the author of all Scripture.

Look at the problem we have in many churches today that because of Paul's words, not Jesus words? Women are treated as second class citizens and are not allowed to be pastors or teach men. This is evil, wicked and wrong and not of God who looks at the heart of men and through Jesus Christ sees all his children perfect and equal. That is why Jesus stated in Matthew :

Oh, I see--you have an agenda.

What church treats woman like that anyway?

23:1 Then Jesus spoke to the multitudes and to His disciples, 23:2 saying: "The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat. 23:3 "Therefore whatever they tell you to observe, that observe and do, but do not do according to their works; for they say, and do not do. 23:4 "For they bind heavy burdens, hard to bear, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers. 23:5 "But all their works they do to be seen by men. They make their phylacteries broad and enlarge the borders of their garments. 23:6 "They love the best places at feasts, the best seats in the synagogues, 23:7 "greetings in the marketplaces, and to be called by men, 'Rabbi, Rabbi.' 23:8 "But you, do not be called 'Rabbi'; for One is your Teacher, the Christ, and you are all brethren. 23:9 "Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven. 23:10 "And do not be called teachers; for One is your Teacher, the Christ. 23:11 "But he who is greatest among you shall be your servant. 23:12 "And whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted. 23:13 "But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you shut up the kingdom of heaven against men; for you neither go in yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in. 23:14 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you devour widows' houses, and for a pretense make long prayers. Therefore you will receive greater condemnation. 23:15 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you travel land and sea to win one proselyte, and when he is won, you make him twice as much a son of hell as yourselves.

Quite frankly, that Scripture isn't speaking to a woman's role in the church--is it?

Yes, in God's eyes we are all brethren and equal male and female rich and poor dumb and smart. The confusion with Paul's teaching and words come as a result of Fundamentalist interpretation that all his words were literally inspired by God and God breathed. In actual fact they are in error because they have twisted the word of God that states:

No Jim, I am afraid that it is you who is in error. You are rejecting the clear Word of God., picking and choosing what tickles your fancy at the moment. All Scripture is God-breathed, Jim-- all.

ROM 12:6 Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, let us use them: if prophecy, let us prophesy in proportion to our faith;

Written by Paul and not really speaking to a woman's role in the church.

1COR 12:10 to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another discerning of spirits, to another different kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues.

1COR 13:2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.

1TM 4:14 Do not neglect the gift that is in you, which was given to you by prophecy with the laying on of the hands of the eldership.

Also written by Paul...so you are saying just some of Paul's work is inspired? What parts? The parts you like?

2PT 1:20 knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation,

By this is meant that no religious establishment can interpret the Scriptures for people. I think of the Jehovah Witnesses, the Mormons and even the Catholic Church. This is not applicable to your complaint.

2PT 1:21 for prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit.

Exactly

CONTRARY TO FUNDAMENTALIST CHRISTIANS STATED VIEW PROPHECY IS NOT PREACHING IT IS PROPHECY! Huh?

So you cannot twist the word of God and say that no Scripture is of any private interpretation or scripture never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit like FundamentalistS do. Scripture contains prophecy and it also contains other things!

Please explain this confusing comment?&%#?

The Holy Scriptures, the bible, contain historical events, deeds and words spoken by God, true men of God, and false ones. For example Job comforters, who in reality were his enemies, spoke many words but they were not inspired of God even though the book Job is part of "the Inspired Word of God" which is impossible.

What is Job comforters? Job's enemies? I am confused? Did these men write the book of Job, or did Job write it?

God caused the book of Job to be written but He didn't inspire the words in it because what Job's friend said was evil and wicked! There goes the theory All Scripture is given by inspiration of God. Only Apostle Paul and no one else stated.

This is false, Jim. Just because stories of wickedness or evil are found in the Scriptures--doesn't mean God didn't inspire it. These wicked men you speak of did not write the book of Job. You are in error if you think you can reject those things in God's Word that you don't care for.

2TM 3:16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 3:17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.

Again in light of the foolish words spoken by Job's comforter which are part of scripture they were not given by inspiration of God. So Paul's statement is faulty or he didn't convey exactly what he wanted to state? But God's word is true:

Maybe the problems comes from your not really fully understanding the Scriptures--or the fact that you have an agenda to meet?

Job 42:7 And so it was, after the LORD had spoken these words to Job, that the LORD said to Eliphaz the Temanite, "My wrath is aroused against you and your two friends, for you have not spoken of Me what is right, as My servant Job has. 42:8 "Now therefore, take for yourselves seven bulls and seven rams, go to My servant Job, and offer up for yourselves a burnt offering; and My servant Job shall pray for you. For I will accept him, lest I deal with you according to your folly; because you have not spoken of Me what is right, as My servant Job has."

For me it's quite simple whatever the LORD or Jesus spoke in the bible is more important than whatever Paul or others have spoken. But men always want to worship the golden calf instead of God and they want to worship and obey the words of Paul instead of the words of Jesus who said that His words were the most important:

You need to study Scripture Jim, so you can learn that the Scriptures are in complete harmony with themselves.....there is only one author and the Scriptures do not contradict. Jesus chose Paul and convicted his heart in a moments notice to do His work. That says alot for Paul and his authority.

Matthew 7:24 "Therefore whoever hears these sayings of Mine, and does them, I will liken him to a wise man who built his house on the rock: 7:25 "and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it did not fall, for it was founded on the rock. 7:26 "But everyone who hears these sayings of Mine, and does not do them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand: 7:27 "and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it fell. And great was its fall."

It's to be noted that Apostle Paul never wrote or spoke in the bible and said the Lord has said.... which true prophets who do speak in the name of the Lord do even though apostle Paul was a prophet and teacher before he was called to be an apostle!

You are a contradiction in and of yourself, Jim.

ACTS 13:1 Now in the church that was at Antioch there were certain prophets and teachers: Barnabas, Simeon who was called Niger, Lucius of Cyrene, Manaen who had been brought up with Herod the tetrarch, and Saul.

God has made it so that we are to live by every word that proceeds out of His mouth and not the mouth of others. We are to live by the Rhema word and put the Logos word into are hearts until it becomesa Rhema word. We are to walk and live in the Spirit and not the flesh! God's word is true:

MT 4:4 But He answered and said, "It is written, 'Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.' "

This would be Scripture, Jim.

Colossians 2:6 As you have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in Him, 2:7 rooted and built up in Him and established in the faith, as you have been taught, abounding in it with thanksgiving. 2:8 Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ. 2:9 For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily; 2:10 and you are complete in Him, who is the head of all principality and power.

Nice Scriptures..., but you have failed to prove that Paul did not write according to the Spirit in everything he wrote., and you have not made a case for women to be head Pastors in church., though I know many who are great helpers--as God designed us to be. Many great assistant woman speakers and thinkers have found their way into church community without complaint.

-- (faith01@myway.com), February 01, 2005.

Not the "Paul is evil and agaisnt chfistain techings" argument again...

Lets break this down...

Apostle Paul and Jesus Teachings have the same value? Look at the problem we have in many churches today that because of Paul's words, not Jesus words?

This begs the queatsion, assming problems and blame, when the case has ye tot even be made. thus, a ruse designd to lead he reader tot he conclusion before he evidenc is presened, in an attemt tp manipulate the reader to see the evidence in the manner which one seeks to present it...

Women are treated as second class citizens and are not allowed to be pastors or teach men.

UHN, ever hear of Amee Semple McPhearson? Lets nto forget the dozens upon ozens of Baptist pastors thata re women. and Meahtodists.And United church of Christ.Lets nto forget he Anglicans......

women have been appoitned pastors in several chruches, that fact is incontestable.

Likewise, even among hose that do NOT ordain women, whihc are nowadays the Minority do so base dupon Jesus's actiosna s much as Pauls words. Jesus never appoitned a female apsotle, for instance.

Then there is the issue of "are women second class citezens for not beign allowed o be ordained"? The answeer to THAT queatsion si "No".

Gender roles are part of most cultures, btu do not exclude women from rights nessisarily.

This is evil, wicked and wrong and not of God who looks at the heart of men and through Jesus Christ sees all his children perfect and equal.

Equality as defiend how? Can we all run as fast as one another? all think as sharply? All paint a Masterpeice? No, we can't.

Likewise, you asume its wrong without considering the cojnerargumes, which yo fial to present. heck, you don een present an argument FOR womens ordinaiton, yo just asusme that its universlaly known as wrong to not ordain women and thus the evil moern hcurhces ( Most of which do, I remind, ordain wmen0 are wocked.

This sint a discussion, its just a eman to hcew your own agenda...

That is why Jesus stated in Matthew :

23:1 Then Jesus spoke to the multitudes and to His disciples, 23:2 saying: "The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat. 23:3 "Therefore whatever they tell you to observe, that observe and do, but do not do according to their works; for they say, and do not do.

So far all it des is speak out aaisnt Hypocracy. IE, do not commit adultery, even if the leader who taught you not to commits audltery." It doesnt say " women shidl bne ordained" or " Not ordainign women is evil"...

23:4 "For they bind heavy burdens, hard to bear, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers. 23:5 "But all their works they do to be seen by men. They make their phylacteries broad and enlarge the borders of their garments. 23:6 "They love the best places at feasts, the best seats in the synagogues, 23:7 "greetings in the marketplaces, and to be called by men, 'Rabbi, Rabbi.' 23:8 "But you, do not be called 'Rabbi'; for One is your Teacher, the Christ, and you are all brethren. 23:9 "Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven. 23:10 "And do not be called teachers; for One is your Teacher, the Christ. 23:11 "But he who is greatest among you shall be your servant. 23:12 "And whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted. 23:13 "But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you shut up the kingdom of heaven against men; for you neither go in yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in. 23:14 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you devour widows' houses, and for a pretense make long prayers. Therefore you will receive greater condemnation. 23:15 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you travel land and sea to win one proselyte, and when he is won, you make him twice as much a son of hell as yourselves.

Again, an admoniiton opposign Hypocracy has nothign whatsoever to do with Ordainign women...

On either side of the debate...

Yes, in God's eyes we are all brethren and equal male and female rich and poor dumb and smart.

Which is not in dispute. what is in disput is the total equality means everyone is identical claim, which your arugment henges on. If women are built diffeently hysiclaly and emotionally, and where deisnged to fulfill a seperage function in life, woidl this mean automaticlly that we shdkl igore those differences and pretend they don exist to fulfill some slef styled mandate to force ourselcves to look enlightened?

do you even KNOW the arugments opposign womens ordination?

I doun it, sicne you don relaise most chruches ordian women these days...

what relaly troublesome is that the passage you quoted isnt even about equality. its baout hypocracy. The text said " Obey your rleigious leadrs but dont act liek them. They preach oen thing and then don do it, doing instead what they said was wrong, all the whle makign you suffer burdens while they themselves don do any work at all."

No part f this pasage mentions anyone's equel rights, but ralther tlls us not to obey rleigious leadrs by imitaiton, but to obey the instruciton and teahcings of the rleigious laws, dispite the hypocracy of the leaers.

The confusion with Paul's teaching and words come as a result of Fundamentalist interpretation that all his words were literally inspired by God and God breathed. In actual fact they are in error because they have twisted the word of God that states:

Are they in error, or are you?

The above pasage you quoted din even sya " All are created equel' but to do as commanded dispite Hypocracy form your leaders.

You cnanot lecutre us on errors if your whole post is mared by error.

ROM 12:6 Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, let us use them: if prophecy, let us prophesy in proportion to our faith;

Do you have a problem withhis obviosu fact that we arent all givin the same talents?

Or are yu usign this to disporve Paul even though paul write it?

1COR 12:10 to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another discerning of spirits, to another different kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues.

1COR 13:2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.

1TM 4:14 Do not neglect the gift that is in you, which was given to you by prophecy with the laying on of the hands of the eldership.

2PT 1:20 knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation,

2PT 1:21 for prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit.

which sort of proves where wherent all made to be exaclty the same and have dffering talents, and need to love all above any talnt we may possess, because whtout love, our talents are useless...

CONTRARY TO FUNDAMENTALIST CHRISTIANS STATED VIEW PROPHECY IS NOT PREACHING IT IS PROPHECY!

I kno of no one who sys " Prophecy is Preaching", on the othe rhand, if oen doesnt prech propehcy, the mesage doesnt go anywhere and thus becoems useless...

So you cannot twist the word of God and say that no Scripture is of any private interpretation or scripture never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit like FundamentalistS do. Scripture contains prophecy and it also contains other things!

Did not Jesus say "Scripture shall never be broken"?

oh well, we can ignore Jesus, in our mad dash to say Paul disagreed with him...

The Holy Scriptures, the bible, contain historical events, deeds and words spoken by God, true men of God, and false ones.

God said he woidl rpeserve his word, and you deny this?

Jesus said " Heaven and earht shall pas away, but my word shall endureth forever."

d you deny this?

For example Job comforters, who in reality were his enemies, spoke many words but they were not inspired of God even though the book Job is part of "the Inspired Word of God" which is impossible.

Now your just beign stupid. Job is a didadic dialouge, contianign the words of men for contrast as a Philosphical discussion. Jobs friends ( who likely where his firends, btu mistaken) where there to represent previaling philosophies of there day. Aljtough therPhiloosphies whre not inerent, they where inerently represented so as to properly refute them.

The reaosn they ar ein the Bibl is to SHOW how hey are refuted by God, thus, even thugh the ideas ar eof men, the words ar eindeed inspired of God.

God caused the book of Job to be written but He didn't inspire the words in it because what Job's friend said was evil and wicked!

Ther eis a difeence between "wrong" and "evil and wicked". Likewise, God can inpsite "evil and wicked " things to be writen out f it f;lfills his end. in the case of the Book of Job, the words are nessisary to establihs the grunds for refutation. God still inspired them to be written, even if thre ideas where human and not divine in there own right, in order to have a proper vialouge...

There goes the theory All Scripture is given by inspiration of God.

All fo the book of Job was givin by Inspiration of God, you confuse Hman phloosphy beitng preasent in a book with its lack of divine origin, thuis is folly.

Only Apostle Paul and no one else stated

2TM 3:16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 3:17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.

did he? was he relaly standign alone?

Did not Jermiah lkewise say the same, and Isaiah? and what of Moses?

They all said " Do as is written".

And " All scriptrue is of God."

even Jesus said it.

Here are a few verses from Jesus.

Mathew 22: 29. Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.

Mathew chapter 26-

49. And forthwith he came to Jesus, and said, Hail, master; and kissed him. 50. And Jesus said unto him, Friend, wherefore art thou come? Then came they, and laid hands on Jesus and took him. 51. And, behold, one of them which were with Jesus stretched out his hand, and drew his sword, and struck a servant of the high priest's, and smote off his ear. 52. Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword. 53. Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels? 54. But how then shall the scriptures be fulfilled, that thus it must be? 55. In that same hour said Jesus to the multitudes, Are ye come out as against a thief with swords and staves for to take me? I sat daily with you teaching in the temple, and ye laid no hold on me. 56. But all this was done, that the scriptures of the prophets might be fulfilled. Then all the disciples forsook him, and fled.

Need more?

Again in light of the foolish words spoken by Job's comforter which are part of scripture they were not given by inspiration of God. So Paul's statement is faulty or he didn't convey exactly what he wanted to state? But God's word is true:

again, all of Job was givin by insoiration of God, the problem lies in your limited understajdning of what Inspiration is and what can and cant be written under inspiration. Just because the overall mesage of Job is true doesnt mean everyhtign in it must be true, nir does fals einformation or wicked deeds contiane din a book serve as proof that those potiosn arent of god, least of all when such sttaemns are needed to refute such lines of thought.

Jesus affirmed the nessesity of scirotures, whoa rr you to say otherwise?

Job 42:7 And so it was, after the LORD had spoken these words to Job, that the LORD said to Eliphaz the Temanite, "My wrath is aroused against you and your two friends, for you have not spoken of Me what is right, as My servant Job has. 42:8 "Now therefore, take for yourselves seven bulls and seven rams, go to My servant Job, and offer up for yourselves a burnt offering; and My servant Job shall pray for you. For I will accept him, lest I deal with you according to your folly; because you have not spoken of Me what is right, as My servant Job has."

For me it's quite simple whatever the LORD or Jesus spoke in the bible is more important than whatever Paul or others have spoken. But men always want to worship the golden calf instead of God and they want to worship and obey the words of Paul instead of the words of Jesus who said that His words were the most important:

Red herring. Paul ordered us to worship Jesus as well. Pausl wirds, givin under inpsiration, anre insuction on how to apply christain ethic, and are not a Golden Calf, as you claim, rather , they are in lkine wirth Jesus's teachigns, which yiu know not.

Matthew 7:24 "Therefore whoever hears these sayings of Mine, and does them, I will liken him to a wise man who built his house on the rock: 7:25 "and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it did not fall, for it was founded on the rock. 7:26 "But everyone who hears these sayings of Mine, and does not do them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand: 7:27 "and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it fell. And great was its fall."

It is alo written that we are to sudy diligently, which you fail to do or else you woidl bette rundertsand Oausl words, and Jesus's, and he fact that all scrpotrue ( includign all parts of Job) where ivin By God...

It's to be noted that Apostle Paul never wrote or spoke in the bible and said the Lord has said....

This is a lie.Paul recites th teachigns of christ in his letters. Ill provide quotes later, as I dount it will sink in on the irts try, and Im in a rush.

which true prophets who do speak in the name of the Lord do even though apostle Paul was a prophet and teacher before he was called to be an apostle!

He was not a Prophet before beign called to be an apostle. he was a Pharasee.

ACTS 13:1 Now in the church that was at Antioch there were certain prophets and teachers: Barnabas, Simeon who was called Niger, Lucius of Cyrene, Manaen who had been brought up with Herod the tetrarch, and Saul.

Saul beign there doesnt make him a Prphet.Or a teaher for that matter... though he was a etacher, he was nt a Prphet... and his verse proves neither...

God has made it so that we are to live by every word that proceeds out of His mouth and not the mouth of others. We are to live by the Rhema word and put the Logos word into are hearts until it becomesa Rhema word. We are to walk and live in the Spirit and not the flesh! God's word is true:

and God spoke thrugh Oaul, by Insiration, the same way he did fromt he Prpphets...

MT 4:4 But He answered and said, "It is written, 'Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.' "

It is also written, Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes? You reject the emiisaries of Yeshua, and yet expect atention to your claims...

Colossians 2:6 As you have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in Him, 2:7 rooted and built up in Him and established in the faith, as you have been taught, abounding in it with thanksgiving. 2:8 Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ. 2:9 For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily; 2:10 and you are complete in Him, who is the head of all principality and power.

Arent we to ignroe the aboce, acording to you, sicne it was form Paul, a mere man and (false?) Prophet?

-- ZAROPVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), February 01, 2005.

DANGNABIT FAITH, YOU BEAT ME TO IT!

Ah well, nice answers...

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), February 01, 2005.

Equality has nothing to do with it. Equality is a liberal window into chaos. Yes, God sees men and women as equal. The Spirit can work through both genders equally. But this is meaningless and has nothing to do with anything. God created woman to be a helper to the man, not an authority. Just as Christ is head of the church, man is head of the woman. Marriages in which the husbands submits to the wives are frought with resentment and disrespect. The same occurs in the church. Women are given gifts equally as men, but the ordination of women submiting to men is God-given and woven into the fabric of our humanity.

-- LUke Juarez (hubertdorm@yahoo.com), February 02, 2005.

"The confusion with Paul's teaching and words come as a result of Fundamentalist interpretation that all his words were literally inspired by God and God breathed. In actual fact they are in error because they have twisted the word of God that states:

ROM 12:6 Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, let us use them: if prophecy, let us prophesy in proportion to our faith;

1COR 12:10 to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another discerning of spirits, to another different kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues.

1COR 13:2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.

1TM 4:14 Do not neglect the gift that is in you, which was given to you by prophecy with the laying on of the hands of the eldership.

2PT 1:20 knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation,

2PT 1:21 for prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit. "

This section does not make sense. You are claiming that Paul's words are not inspired by God. You say he is twisting the word of God. Then you list three passages you attribute to the word of God-- that have been written by Paul!

"The Holy Scriptures, the bible, contain historical events, deeds and words spoken by God, true men of God, and false ones. For example Job comforters, who in reality were his enemies, spoke many words but they were not inspired of God even though the book Job is part of "the Inspired Word of God" which is impossible.

God caused the book of Job to be written but He didn't inspire the words in it because what Job's friend said was evil and wicked! There goes the theory All Scripture is given by inspiration of God. Only Apostle Paul and no one else stated. "

God did not inspire Job's friends to say what they did, but he inspired the writers of Job to make an account for this event. All Scriptures are given TO US by GOD. Even if the scripture itself was a wicked person speaking lies, the scripture is given by God.

Also, the last verse you posted (Colossians 2:6) was also written by Paul. It does not contradict the verse from Matthew just prior, so why did you post it? Did you believe it to be inspired? If so, did you know that it was written by Paul?

-- Luke Juarez (hubertdorm@yahoo.com), February 02, 2005.

What if woman was created first, Luke?

After all, men come out of women!!!!

God Yahweh is not a male or female the way humans are because he is a lifeforce spirit.

The most primitive life forms are asexual.

The Christian Yahwist

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), February 02, 2005.

We cannot apply the passages related to man/woman if woman was created first. But, woman was not created first, so we don't have to worry about it do we?

-- Luke Juarez (hubertdorm@yahoo.com), February 02, 2005.

I cannot guarrantee that, Luke.

The Genesis story ch. 1-10 were written during the Babylonian exile/Assyrian exiles 723-515 BC.

Yahweh's name was not known by Adam,...See Exodus 4 and 6.

The Christian Yahwist

The Man of Yahweh

-- Elpidio Gonzalez (egonval@yahoo.com), February 03, 2005.

All scripture is given of God is true but it's hogwash to say everything that Job's three so called friends who in reality were his enemies spoke because they were moved by God to do so. As matter of fact God Himself rebuked them. So if he told them what to say why did he tell them they were wrong? Impossbile because all words spoken in scripture including those of apostle Paul were not inspired of God!

You guys and gals don't make an ounce of sense at all with your divine inspiration junk when you cannot even define what it means and what words in the bible are inspired and what words are not inspired!

-- Don Wise (psalm9@mail.com), February 03, 2005.

Hey Luke,

I can actually agree with you for a change : )

You said:

Equality has nothing to do with it. Equality is a liberal window into chaos. Yes, God sees men and women as equal. The Spirit can work through both genders equally. But this is meaningless and has nothing to do with anything. God created woman to be a helper to the man, not an authority. Just as Christ is head of the church, man is head of the woman. Marriages in which the husbands submits to the wives are frought with resentment and disrespect. The same occurs in the church. Women are given gifts equally as men, but the ordination of women submiting to men is God-given and woven into the fabric of our humanity.

-- (faith01@myway.com), February 03, 2005.

All scripture is given of God is true but it's hogwash to say everything that Job's three so called friends who in reality were his enemies spoke because they were moved by God to do so.

{we did not make this claim. we merleyt stated that their recorded words where, indeed, Inspired by God, for the ske of offering their veiws for refuation...}-Zarove

As matter of fact God Himself rebuked them.

{amdnd in order for the rebuke to make sence, the argumets had to be made...again we did not advocate listenign to Jb's Friends, only that the entire book of Job is inpsired.}-Zarove

So if he told them what to say why did he tell them they were wrong?

{He inpsired the book of Job's author to record what they said, not what they said spaciifcllay, there is the distinction you miss.}- Zarove

Impossbile because all words spoken in scripture including those of apostle Paul were not inspired of God!

{ This is where you miss the boat. The entire book of Job was inspired by God, not every thought in it.God nonetheless inspired the bopok itsself ot be written.

We arent claimign he inspired the errors in mens minds, hemerley inspred an auhtor to record those errors so they coidl be refuted.

Paul's writtigns, on the other hand, are OT rfuted by God, and ae givden by God hough paul.See the diffeence?}-Zarove

You guys and gals don't make an ounce of sense at all with your divine inspiration junk when you cannot even define what it means and what words in the bible are inspired and what words are not inspired!

{Inspried means that od is the osurce, and the mesgae dleivered is of him.

All the word sint he Bible ar einpsired. this is not to say all actiosn recorded inthe Bible, and all lines spoken by men in the Bible, ar eof God, but that the books record them as God commanded the authors to record, thus acuratley reflecting the statements made by these men, including Job's friends.}-Zarove

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), February 03, 2005.

Just to emphasize what Zarove is saying:

Ezekiel 18 The word of the LORD came to me: "What do you people mean by quoting this proverb about the land of Israel: 'The fathers eat sour grapes,

and the children's teeth are set on edge'?

As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign LORD , you will no longer quote this proverb in Israel. For every living soul belongs to me, the father as well as the son-both alike belong to me. The soul who sins is the one who will die."

God did not inspire this proverb, yet he inspired Ezekiel to record it and God's response. The book is a gift from God, even though it contains a proverb that isn't.

Paul did the same thing:

Romans 3:5-8 But if our unrighteousness brings out God's righteousness more clearly, what shall we say? That God is unjust in bringing his wrath on us? (I am using a human argument.) Certainly not! If that were so, how could God judge the world? Someone might argue, “If my falsehood enhances God's truthfulness and so increases his glory, why am I still condemned as a sinner?” Why not say–as we are being slanderously reported as saying and as some claim that we say–“Let us do evil that good may result”? Their condemnation is deserved.

Here, Paul uses two arguments that we may potentially hold to, then refutes them. It is not as though these cases are inspired by God themselves, but that Paul is writing by the Spirit when he includes them in his letter.

Here again:

Romans 9:14-16 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy.

v19-21 One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?” But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’ Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?

Again, Paul takes two human arguments that are not based in truth, and gives us insight into the mind of God. Who are we to argue? We are only the creation.

-- Luke Juarez (hubertdorm@yahoo.com), February 03, 2005.

Faith, we have lots in common, but are worlds apart on some issues. It's like we sit on the same pew at different churches.

-- Luke Juarez (hubertdorm@yahoo.com), February 03, 2005.