how are the protestant so sure that the bible is true? 2

greenspun.com : LUSENET : Ask Jesus : One Thread

Continued from here.

http://greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=00CiUq

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), January 31, 2005

Answers

tHE last few posts on the old thread...

rod--there is no doubt that Rome developed its own doctrines that were not in Scripture--which is why people protest. So ignore that if you choose. I choose to see it for what it is....apostacy.

Jesus protected His body from any and all of this, so I am not concerned. We, those who truly believe in Him--are tucked safely away in Him. He knows who we are and He will return to take us from this place to be with Him forevermore : )

-- (faith01@myway.com), January 31, 2005.

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Jesus gave this Church the authority to excommunicate. An invisible church cannot do that.

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), January 31, 2005.

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Let me just try to understand your position here. So, those conflicting--Protestant-- doctrines are in apostacy, in your estimation, yes?

.............

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), January 31, 2005.

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Therefore, it is only your invisible church that is saved. ........

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), January 31, 2005.

-- Z (Z@Z.Z), January 31, 2005.


The problem, Faith, is that you make your blanket statements without realizing what you actually are saying. You are condemning any doctrine that is not inline with your own doctrine. You make the claim that your doctrine is correct and true. Amazing.

.........

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), January 31, 2005.


Really Gail--Jesus excommunicates true believers who are *called out* and are found in Him? Verses Please??

Or are you talking about an unbeliever found within a local assembly?

And please., excommunicate.., Jesus said that? The same Jesus who died for us even while we were still sinners would so easily excommunicate someone for---what? Unbelief? Why would He bother to even come in the first place if that were truly His attitude?

-- (faith01@myway.com), January 31, 2005.


You don't even realize my position with the Church, Faith. If you would take the time to analyze my posts, you would have directed your excommunication questions right on target.

How do you spell "analyze"? anylize, analize, anathema......

I'll leave this issue before you get me started on Excomunication.

...............

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), January 31, 2005.


Gail,

I hope you don't mind me answering for you... :-)

Faith wrote, "Really Gail--Jesus excommunicates true believers who are *called out* and are found in Him? Verses Please??"

Yes Faith, Jesus really does do the very thing that you say cannot happen for He said in Matthew 18:15-18, "15 Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother. 16 But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that 'by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.' 17 And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector."

Paul wrote in 1 Corinthians 5:1-8, "1 It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and such sexual immorality as is not even named among the Gentiles--that a man has his father's wife! 2 And you are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he who has done this deed might be taken away from among you. 3 For I indeed, as absent in body but present in spirit, have already judged (as though I were present) him who has so done this deed. 4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when you are gathered together, along with my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, 5 deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. 6 Your glorying is not good. Do you not know that a little leaven leavens the whole lump? 7 Therefore purge out the old leaven, that you may be a new lump, since you truly are unleavened. For indeed Christ, our Passover, was sacrificed for us. 8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, nor with the leaven of malice and wickedness, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth."

When Paul wrote the Corinthians in 1 Corinthians 5:11-13, he reaffirmed what Jesus had said earlier, "11 But now I have written to you not to keep company with anyone named a brother, who is sexually immoral, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner--not even to eat with such a person. 12 For what have I to do with judging those also who are outside? Do you not judge those who are inside? 13 But those who are outside God judges. Therefore "put away from yourselves the evil person."

-- Kevin Walker ("navyscporetired@comcast.net"), January 31, 2005.



Wow, Kevin, great minds really DO think alike. While you were posting this, I created a new post called "Can believers be excommunicated". If you'd like, you can copy your's over to the new thread. I think I posted the same scriptures as you!!

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), January 31, 2005.

Those Scriptures do not confirm that Jesus would excommunicate a believer from His body..those verses are telling us how to know a true believer from an unbeliever. An unbeliever is already outside the church even though he comes to an assembly of believers and pretends to belong.

I think we need to understand the difference between the church *eclessia* and the church as in an assembly of believers in a congregation.

For you Kevin, I think that Jesus' commands were being given to Jews in hopes that they would see that they were lost apart from God and that they needed a Savior and that that Savior was Jesus Himself.

Here is a perfect analogy of what Jesus was really teaching:

The good news.....author unknown--worth the read...

The Beatitudes represent only the first step toward understanding the Sermon on the Mount. Long after I came to understand the the truth of the Beatitudes, I found myself still pondering over the harshness of the rest of Jesus' sermon.

"Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect," Jesus said, His statement tucked casually between commands to love our enemy and give away everything we own.

Be perfect like God? What could He possibly mean? What does the Bible say about who is good? It says that no one is good--except God, of course.

When a rich man asked Jesus what he should do to ensure eternal life-- Jesus told him to give his money away! Not 10% mind you, or 50% even-- but all of it.

When a disciple asked if he should forgive his brother seven times-- Jesus replied that he should forgive him him seventy-seven times. Jesus taught the Golden rule as follows: "In everything, do to others as you would have them do to you."

Has anyone ever lived a life as perfect as God? Has anyone ever followed the Golden Rule perfectly? How can we respond to such impossible ideas?

A friend of mine once said that he did not like the "Sermon on the Mount". He complained that it was not easy to read and made him feel like he had to be perfect. "To simply look at a woman lustfully is adultery? Absurd!" he proclaimed.

Jesus said..Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you... It is easy to love your own brother, to love those who love you, even tax collectors do that! You want me to congratulate you for loving your own? No, Jesus said., "Love your enemy!"

Love the man who would kick you and spit on you. Love the soldier who would drive a sword through your belly. Love the man who robs and tortures you. Listen to me.."Love your enemy!!"

The Sermon on the Mount did not simply puzzle the people of his day. This unwelcomed advice infuriated them!

Jesus' listeners worried about whether Jesus was a revolutionary rather than an authentic Jewish prophet.

Jesus responded to that by saying, "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them...

For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven." (this is a key, in my opinion)

That last statement surely made the crowd sit up and take notice. How could their righteousness surpass that of the religious leaders of their day?

Pharisees and teachers of the law competed with one another in strictness. They had atomized God's law into 613 rules-- 248 commands and 365 prohibitions!!

And--they bolstered these rules with 1,521 emendations. To avoid breaking the third commandment, "You shall not misuse the name of the Lord," they refused to pronounce God's name at all!

To avoid sexual temptation, they had practiced walking with their heads down and not looking at women. The most scrupulous of these were known as "bleeding Pharisees" because of their frequent collisions with walls and other things.

To avoid defiling the Sabbath, they outlawed 39 activities that might be considered work. How could an ordinary person's righteousness ever surpass that of such *professional* holy men?

Using the Torah as His starting point, Jesus pushed the law in the same direction, but further than any Pharisee had ever dared to push it..further than any monk ever dared to live it. Jesus made the Law impossible for anyone to keep and then charged us to keep it!

"I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother will be subject to judgement....anyone who says, 'You fool!' will be in danger of the fire of hell."

Can any two brothers weather the storms of adolescence without relying on words such as "supid" or "fool"?

"I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart. If your right eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell."

Finally--Jesus even spells out the principles for non-violence. Who could even survive with the rules Jesus laid down?

"Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. And if someone wants to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well."

I think about all these commands and I ask myself how I should respond? Does Jesus really expect me to give all I have to every panhandler who crosses my path?

Should I abandon all insistence on consumer rights? Should I cancel my insurance policies and trust God for the future? Should I give everything I have to the poor--keeping only the clothes on my back?

How can I possibly translate such ethical ideas into my everyday life?

In his response to the rich young ruler in the parable of the Good Samaritan, in his comments about divorce, money, or any other moral issue...Jesus never lowered God's ideal...

"Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect" he said. "Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind."

No one has ever completely fulfilled those commands..not Francis of Assisi, not Mother Teresa, not anyone!

There is only one way for any of us to resolve the tension between the high ideals of the gospel and the grim reality of ourselves.

We need to accept that we can never measure up. That is ultimately what the message of the gospel is. The "good news" is, that we don't have to. The gospel (good news) message is that we are judged by the righteousness of Christ who lives within us the moment we receive him.

"Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, because through Christ Jesus the Law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering." (Romans 8:1-3)

Jesus, who never lowered God's ideal is also the same Jesus who tenderly offered absolute grace. Jesus forgave an adulteress, a thief on a cross and a disciple who had denied knowing him.

It extends even to the people who nailed Jesus to the cross... "Father, forgive them, for they know not what they are doing."

When it comes to the Sermon on the Mount--I can see that Jesus gave us these words not to cumber us, but to tell us what God is like-- perfect.

Jesus did not proclaim the Sermon on the Mount so that we would despair over our failure to acheive perfection. He gave it to impart to us--God's Ideal toward which we should never stop striving, but also to show us that none of us will ever reach that ideal.

The Sermon on the Mount forces us to recognize the great distance between God and us.., and any attempt to somehow *moderate* its demands--misses the point altogether!

The worst tragedy would be to turn the Sermon on the Mount into another form of legalism; it should rather put an end to legalism.

Legalism like the Pharisees' will always fail., not because it is too strict--but because it isn't strict enough.

The Sermon on the Mount proves that before God, we all stand on equal ground. Murderers and temper-throwers, adulterers and lusters, thieves and coveters. We are all desperate, and we have all indeed fallen from God's absolute Ideal.

We have nowhere to land but inside the safety net of grace--God's grace. Jesus Christ is our salvation... a gift from God--by His grace..."perfection" offered--up, in our place.

"Christ is the end of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes.." (Romans 10:4)



-- (faith01@myway.com), January 31, 2005.


Faith, that is a lovely article you posted, however it has nothing to do with excommunication.

Excommunication is a practice that every single church I have ever been involved in practices. I cannot imagine why you feel it necessary to rebel against this very plain teaching and practice.

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), January 31, 2005.


"Faith, that is a lovely article you posted, however it has nothing to do with excommunication."

Gail, you are correct... The article that Faith quoted has "nothing" to do with church discipline...

-- Kevin Walker ("navyscporetired@comcast.net"), January 31, 2005.


Kevin, I was posting that article in response to your request abound commands that jesus laid out. You said, "Sh0ow me a command that is impossible to follow--or something to that effect.

Did I post it in the wrong thread?

If I did, my bad--but you should be able to remember the request you made. Zarove is making too many continuing threads and I can't get it straight anymore....

I'll go back and see if I can find what I was actually responding to..

-- (faith01@myway.com), January 31, 2005.



Here itm is:

Kevin, you said this:

You wrote, "Yes Kevin, Jesus did give us impossible to keep commands."

Really??? Which commands are they that are impossible to keep??? Please list them for us Faith...

You wrote, "These commands are what make it possible for us to enter heaven on our own accord--that is--if we could keep them."

Which commands are these that cause us to "enter heaven on our own accord"??? Please list these also while you are at it...

You wrote, "The Law, however, never saved anyone because it is impossible for us to do it."

We are not under the Law of Moses... So what is your point??? This law was nailed to the cross... (See Colossians 2:14).

You wrote, "But this is precisely the point trying to be made. The Law reveals to us--our need for a Savior. If we could keep the law-- then we wouldn't need a Savior, would we?"

We are under Law, just not under the Law of Moses... (See James 2:12). Since this is the case, please explain to us which commands under the New Testament that are not under the Law of Moses are "impossible" for us to keep???

You wrote, "The only purpose for the Law was to convict us of the fact that we are sinners...."

The purpose of the Law is as stated in Romans 5:20, "Moreover the law entered that the offense might abound."

-- Kevin Walker ("navyscporetired@comcast.net"), January 31, 2005.

So that is what my *good news* post is in response to. Somehow, you and Gail combined it, so that I was responding to both of you.

Now that that is out of the way--care to comment on the article's very good points as to why we had commands and why we could not possibly live up to them?

-- (faith01@myway.com), January 31, 2005.


I've never called my brother, "supid." Not even during adolescence.

-- Luke Juarez (hubertdorm@yahoo.com), February 01, 2005.

Luke

I never called anyone supid either. But, I do recall this one guy named Stew....uh Steward. He was rather chunky....uh, Chunky Stew??

..........

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), February 01, 2005.


Well Luke--could you love the man who is going to rob and torture you?

If yes--then you are perfect and you don't need Jesus.

-- (faith01@myway.com), February 01, 2005.


Golly! Faith. Who taught you that?

Jesus told us to love the theif.

Matthew 5:40

"If a man takes you to law and would have your tunic, let him have your cloak as well."

And don't forget when the thief steals one of the Apostle's cloak. Jesus suggests that the Apostle should give him his coat, as well. If that ain't love, what is it?

.........

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), February 01, 2005.



Jesus told you to love your enemy who puts a sword into your belly too--but that doesn't mean you are about to let that happen...hm?

Are you going to give all you own to the beggar man on the street corner--keeping only the clothes on your back?

I highly doubt it, rod.

Jesus was showing you how impossible it is to measure up to God's standards of perfection. That doesn't mean we shouldn't try--but if you think you can be perfect as your Father in heaven is perfect--you delude yourself.

Jesus came because we can't accomplish this on our own. The Law was put into effect to reveal to us our need for a Savior.

-- (faith01@myway.com), February 01, 2005.


Rod,

Exactly... However, you should have continued a little bit further...

Faith,

You wrote, "Well Luke--could you love the man who is going to rob and torture you? If yes--then you are perfect and you don't need Jesus."

Have you not read in Matthew 5:44-48 where Jesus says that we are to love our enemies, is this a command that we cannot obey???

"44 But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you, 45 that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. 46 For if you love those who love you, what reward have you? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? 47 And if you greet your brethren only, what do you do more than others? Do not even the tax collectors do so? 48 Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect."

Jesus says that we can be "perfect"... It is those people who have deceived you who say that we "cannot"...

-- Kevin Walker ("navyscporetired@comcast.net"), February 01, 2005.


Faith,

In your article, these questions were posed with my reply:

"I think about all these commands and I ask myself how I should respond? Does Jesus really expect me to give all I have to every panhandler who crosses my path?"

Jesus never said that we had to give "all I have to every panhandler who crosses my path"...

"Should I abandon all insistence on consumer rights?"

No, the Bible is silent on this issue...

"Should I cancel my insurance policies and trust God for the future?"

Not at all... God says in 2 Thes. 3:10, "If anyone will not work, neither shall he eat." and again in 1 Tim. 5:8, "But if anyone does not provide for his own, and especially for those of his household, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever."

"Should I give everything I have to the poor--keeping only the clothes on my back?"

Jesus didn't tell us that we "all" had to do this thing in order to be "perfect"... He told this to the rich man because he trusted in his riches...

"How can I possibly translate such ethical ideas into my everyday life?"

You have to work at it... :-)

"In his response to the rich young ruler in the parable of the Good Samaritan, in his comments about divorce, money, or any other moral issue...Jesus never lowered God's ideal..."

True and Jesus expects us to obey His commandments and He even states in 1 John 5:3, "For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome."

God tells us and I am going to use a word you do not like, "plainly" that "His commandments are not burdensome", so to claim that one cannot keep God's commandments is not true...

The article quoted scripture, "Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect" he said. "Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind."

Then replied, "No one has ever completely fulfilled those commands..not Francis of Assisi, not Mother Teresa, not anyone!"

When did God say that we had to "perfectly" keep His commands??? One must put forth some effort to obey His commandments...

"There is only one way for any of us to resolve the tension between the high ideals of the gospel and the grim reality of ourselves. We need to accept that we can never measure up. That is ultimately what the message of the gospel is. The "good news" is, that we don't have to. The gospel (good news) message is that we are judged by the righteousness of Christ who lives within us the moment we receive him."

This is what denominationalism teaches... It is the perfect "do nothing" salvation plan... These false teachers proclaim that "you don't have to do anything, Jesus already did it all for us"... They claim that we don't have to follow any laws... Yet Jesus plainly stated that we are to obey His commandments... You can either obey Jesus or obey these men who really do not know what they are talking about...

After quoting Romans 8:1-3, the article stated, "Jesus, who never lowered God's ideal is also the same Jesus who tenderly offered absolute grace. Jesus forgave an adulteress, a thief on a cross and a disciple who had denied knowing him."

Jesus had power on earth to forgive sins... He also had to endure temptations and obey God in order to be our Savior... Once He endured the horrible death on the cross, God said in Hebrews 5:8- 9, "8 though He was a Son, yet He learned obedience by the things which He suffered. 9 And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him,"

Obedience to God's commandments is what "perfects" us in this life... We will be judged by our "works" and by the "things that were written in the books"... (See Rev. 20:12).

"It extends even to the people who nailed Jesus to the cross... "Father, forgive them, for they know not what they are doing."

Jesus never said that "you don't have to obey My commandments as they are too burdensome" like these false teachers of today proclaim...

"When it comes to the Sermon on the Mount--I can see that Jesus gave us these words not to cumber us, but to tell us what God is like-- perfect."

Jesus gave these words on the Sermon on the Mount to cause us to want to be more like Jesus... We cannot be like Jesus unless we do as it is written (walk like Jesus) in 1 John 2:6, "He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked."

"Jesus did not proclaim the Sermon on the Mount so that we would despair over our failure to acheive perfection. He gave it to impart to us--God's Ideal toward which we should never stop striving, but also to show us that none of us will ever reach that ideal."

Jesus "never" stated nor did He ever imply that "none of us will ever reach that ideal"...

"The Sermon on the Mount forces us to recognize the great distance between God and us.., and any attempt to somehow *moderate* its demands--misses the point altogether!"

Yea, this article advocates and promotes the false notion that we are not under law... LOL... "The worst tragedy would be to turn the Sermon on the Mount into another form of legalism; it should rather put an end to legalism. Legalism like the Pharisees' will always fail., not because it is too strict--but because it isn't strict enough."

This is what false teachers always proclaim when we say that one must be obedient to God's commandments, we or I should I say are called "legalists" or "Pharisees" and complain that because we always "fail" that one cannot expect to obey God's commandments... This is what the devil promotes... the perfect "do nothing for salvation" plan...

"The Sermon on the Mount proves that before God, we all stand on equal ground. Murderers and temper-throwers, adulterers and lusters, thieves and coveters. We are all desperate, and we have all indeed fallen from God's absolute Ideal."

Before God we will all be judged how we obeyed God's commandments... (See John 12:48).

"We have nowhere to land but inside the safety net of grace--God's grace. Jesus Christ is our salvation... a gift from God--by His grace..."perfection" offered--up, in our place."

There it is again... The word that denominationalists like to throw out everytime that they have to do something in order to be saved... it is that one little word that they do not understand, "grace"... Grace or unmerited favor does not mean that we do not have to do anything in order to be saved...

The article closed with Romans 10:4, "Christ is the end of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes.."

Yea, Christ is the end of the law, the law of Moses, not the law of liberty which we are presently under... Just because we are not under the law of Moses any longer does not mean that we do not have to obey any of God's commandments... Did you know that Satan is going to war with the saints who "keep God's commandments"...

Revelation 12:17 states, "And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ."

-- Kevin Walker ("navyscporetired@comcast.net"), February 01, 2005.


That is exactly right, Kevin, and there are those who reach that state of perfection in this life . . . martyrs for instance, "who do not love their lives unto death" -- people who have "died unto themselves" completely.

That is what it is called, Faith, "dying to oneself" something which ALL Christians are called to do.

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), February 01, 2005.


Excellent post, Kevin!

............

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), February 01, 2005.


Very good Kevin,

Now if you would just finally understand that the only thing that makes us *perfect* is being found in Christ--you'd be freed from your self-imposed bondage and more able to serve God out of love and not in order to get saved.

It is a gross misrepresentation to claim that this theology, the lessons taught in this article (for example), are claiming that we don't have to obey or follow Jesus' commands. Quite the contrary-- those who are saved, are the only ones who really can follow Jesus because they have been delivered from the power of sin.

Jesus commands, "Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect"..,and you actually believe this is possible?

It is impossible unless you have been found in Jesus Christ. Only when you put on His righteousness, can you be received by God into heaven. You are not righteous by anything you do. You are only righteous by faith--just like Abraham.

You dishonestly ignored this:

Jesus did not proclaim the Sermon on the Mount so that we would despair over our failure to acheive perfection. He gave it to impart to us--God's Ideal toward which we should never stop striving, but also to show us that none of us will ever reach that ideal.

And yes Kevin, don't forget--the Bible does say that we must eat Jesus flesh and blood to have eternal life. So why not just join Catholicim., you are so close....

-- (faith01@myway.com), February 01, 2005.


Faith,

You wrote, "Now if you would just finally understand that the only thing that makes us *perfect* is being found in Christ--you'd be freed from your self-imposed bondage and more able to serve God out of love and not in order to get saved."

Please show everyone here Faith where this is stated in the Bible??? It is written in James 2:22, "Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect?"

Faith and works (of obedience) go hand in hand... It is also written in Hebrews 12:14, "Pursue peace with all people, and holiness, without which no one will see the Lord:"

One must obey God's commandments in order to be saved... To claim otherwise is contrary to what the Bible reveals...

You wrote, "It is a gross misrepresentation to claim that this theology, the lessons taught in this article (for example), are claiming that we don't have to obey or follow Jesus' commands."

Really??? Come on Faith, to make this assertion is exactly what that article advocates, that we cannot do the things that Jesus has commanded and therefore don't have to do anything...

You wrote, "Quite the contrary-- those who are saved, are the only ones who really can follow Jesus because they have been delivered from the power of sin."

Where does the Bible state that "those who are saved, are the only ones who really can follow Jesus"??? I am still waiting for you to provide the passage(s) that state this to be true...

You wrote, "Jesus commands, "Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect"..,and you actually believe this is possible?"

Jesus would not give us a commandment that we were not able to obey...

You wrote, "It is impossible unless you have been found in Jesus Christ."

I have asked you before and you ignored my request and I will ask this of you again... Please tell everyone here Faith how it is "impossible" for one to first, hear the gospel, then how it is "impossible" for one to believe the gospel, then how it is "impossible" for one to repent of their sins, then how it is "impossible" for one to confess their faith in the gospel, then how it is "impossible" for one to be baptized in water for the remission of their sins???

You wrote, "Only when you put on His righteousness, can you be received by God into heaven. You are not righteous by anything you do. You are only righteous by faith--just like Abraham."

Abraham was not called the "friend of God" until he did (i.e. obeyed) what God commanded him to do... (See James 2:20-26). To claim that Abraham was saved by "faith alone" which is what you advocate is false...

You wrote, "You dishonestly ignored this: Jesus did not proclaim the Sermon on the Mount so that we would despair over our failure to acheive perfection. He gave it to impart to us--God's Ideal toward which we should never stop striving, but also to show us that none of us will ever reach that ideal."

Please explain how I "dishonestly ignored" that which you quoted above??? To make an assertion without an explanation is nothing but pure speculation on your part... If you are going to claim that I am "dishonest" at least make it a point to go out and show how I am guilty of what you accuse me of doing...

You wrote, "And yes Kevin, don't forget--the Bible does say that we must eat Jesus flesh and blood to have eternal life. So why not just join Catholicim., you are so close...."

Sorry Faith... The Bible does not make this claim...

Now how about answering my posts instead of just dismissing them and then calling me dishonest without any proof???

-- Kevin Walker ("navyscporetired@comcast.net"), February 01, 2005.


We're waiting, Faith, where's the proof . . . .?

Personally, Kevin, I think you'd have better luck convincing that talking donkey in the Old Testament of deep biblical truths, than you would to convince Little-Miss-Can't-Be-Wrong that the sky really is blue.

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), February 01, 2005.


Please show everyone here Faith where this is stated in the Bible??? It is written in James 2:22, "Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect?"

We are not saved by our works--nor can our works make us perfect. Yet only perfection can enter heaven. We enter heaven because when God looks at us--He sees His Son's perfection/righteousness in us because we belong to Christ.

Romans 3:22

This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.

Faith and works (of obedience) go hand in hand... It is also written in Hebrews 12:14, "Pursue peace with all people, and holiness, without which no one will see the Lord:"

One must obey God's commandments in order to be saved... To claim otherwise is contrary to what the Bible reveals...

I am sure you don't mean the Ten Commandments--right?

Romans 3: 27-31

Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. On what principle? On that of observing the law? No, but on that of faith. For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law. Is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too, since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith. Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law.

I noticed that you excluded Paul from your quoted verses, so I thought I would remend you that James has to be understood in light of all Scripture--and that includes Paul. Clearly James is telling us that faith is evidenced in our works.

You wrote, "It is a gross misrepresentation to claim that this theology, the lessons taught in this article (for example), are claiming that we don't have to obey or follow Jesus' commands."

Really??? Come on Faith, to make this assertion is exactly what that article advocates, that we cannot do the things that Jesus has commanded and therefore don't have to do anything...

Sorry Kevin, but just a Paul says in the quote I provide above--we indeed obey God even though we are made righteous by faith.

Paul said:

"Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law.

Romans 4:4-7

Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness. David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:

Blessed are they whose transgressions are forgiven, whose sins are covered. Blessed is the man whose sin the Lord will never count against him.”

You wrote, "Quite the contrary-- those who are saved, are the only ones who really can follow Jesus because they have been delivered from the power of sin."

Where does the Bible state that "those who are saved, are the only ones who really can follow Jesus"??? I am still waiting for you to provide the passage(s) that state this to be true...

Salvation is the deliverance from the power of sin, Kevin. Without such a deliverence, man will not follow God. Salvation is God's mercy on us., and it comes to us by faith, not by what we do. We can do nothing apart from Him.

Romans 11:32

For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

You wrote, "Jesus commands, "Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect"..,and you actually believe this is possible?"

Jesus would not give us a commandment that we were not able to obey...

But Kevin--Scripture tells us that no one is perfect except for Jesus, no one is good except God, no--not one.

Jesus was trying to express that if we want to go to heaven on our own accord--we would have to be perfect. He also pointed out that it is impossible for man to be perfect.

Matt 19:25-26

When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished and asked, “Who then can be saved?”

Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”

I know you think that this applied only to the rich man--however, based on the disciples question or *Who* then can be saved if perfection is required?? Jesus responded that *with man* it is impossible. He didn't say that it was impossible just for rich men.

You wrote, "It is impossible unless you have been found in Jesus Christ."

I have asked you before and you ignored my request and I will ask this of you again... Please tell everyone here Faith how it is "impossible" for one to first, hear the gospel, then how it is "impossible" for one to believe the gospel, then how it is "impossible" for one to repent of their sins, then how it is "impossible" for one to confess their faith in the gospel, then how it is "impossible" for one to be baptized in water for the remission of their sins???

I never said it is impossible to have faith and be born-again, Kevin. You describe being born-again by faith. You also added the *in water* part, but I'll excuse it since it has no bearing on what we are actually discussing.

You wrote, "Only when you put on His righteousness, can you be received by God into heaven. You are not righteous by anything you do. You are only righteous by faith--just like Abraham."

Abraham was not called the "friend of God" until he did (i.e. obeyed) what God commanded him to do... (See James 2:20-26). To claim that Abraham was saved by "faith alone" which is what you advocate is false...

I am sorry again Kevin, but without faith, we really aren't going to obey God.

Gal 3:22

But the Scripture declares that the whole world is a prisoner of sin, so that what was promised, being given through faith in Jesus Christ, might be given to those who believe.

Gal 3:6-9

Consider Abraham: “He believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.” Understand, then, that those who believe are children of Abraham. The Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: “All nations will be blessed through you.” So those who have faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.

Romans 4:1-3

What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather, discovered in this matter? If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about–but not before God. What does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”

You wrote, "You dishonestly ignored this: Jesus did not proclaim the Sermon on the Mount so that we would despair over our failure to acheive perfection. He gave it to impart to us--God's Ideal toward which we should never stop striving, but also to show us that none of us will ever reach that ideal."

Please explain how I "dishonestly ignored" that which you quoted above???

Well you claimed that we think that we don't have to obey God.

To make an assertion without an explanation is nothing but pure speculation on your part... If you are going to claim that I am "dishonest" at least make it a point to go out and show how I am guilty of what you accuse me of doing...

I believe I did explain, perhaps you just didn't understand my point.

You wrote, "And yes Kevin, don't forget--the Bible does say that we must eat Jesus flesh and blood to have eternal life. So why not just join Catholicim., you are so close...."

Sorry Faith... The Bible does not make this claim...

Wel I know that Kevin--but we are talking about what is plainly stated. I am well aware that the meanings go much deeper and require study. It seems you only do that with John 6--yet the Bible is repleat with revelation that goes far beyond what appears to be plainly stated.



-- (faith01@myway.com), February 02, 2005.


Faith,

You wrote, "We are not saved by our works--nor can our works make us perfect. Yet only perfection can enter heaven. We enter heaven because when God looks at us--He sees His Son's perfection/righteousness in us because we belong to Christ."

Sorry Faith but you are misinformed... The Bible says that we "will" be judged by our works. (See Rev. 20:12).

Your continual quoting of Romans 3:22 does not help you either... There are no contradictions in the Bible and Rev. 20:12 states that we will be judge by our works...

God also says in Matt. 16:27, "For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works."

Again in Rom. 2:6, "who "will render to each one according to his deeds"

Another time in 2 Cor. 5:10, "For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad."

To claim that we will not be judged by our works is not true...

I wrote, "Faith and works (of obedience) go hand in hand... It is also written in Hebrews 12:14, "Pursue peace with all people, and holiness, without which no one will see the Lord:" One must obey God's commandments in order to be saved... To claim otherwise is contrary to what the Bible reveals..."

To which you replied, "I am sure you don't mean the Ten Commandments- -right?"

We are no longer under the Ten Commandments of the Old Testament... however, 9 of the 10 commandments were re-stated in the New Testament and yes we must keep them... If you are going to say that it is impossible to keep the 9 commandments (the only one missing is the sabbath keeping requirement), then please tell us which ones we are not able to keep???

Your quoting of Romans 3: 27-31 does not help you... This speaks of the Old Testament law(s) that have been done away with at the cross...

You wrote, "I noticed that you excluded Paul from your quoted verses, so I thought I would remend you that James has to be understood in light of all Scripture--and that includes Paul. Clearly James is telling us that faith is evidenced in our works."

You say that we will not be judged by our works and no, I did not "exclude Paul" as you assert, Paul wrote about the "works of the law" and James wrote about the "works of obedient faith"...

I wrote, "Really??? Come on Faith, to make this assertion is exactly what that article advocates, that we cannot do the things that Jesus has commanded and therefore don't have to do anything..."

To which you replied, "Sorry Kevin, but just a Paul says in the quote I provide above--we indeed obey God even though we are made righteous by faith."

Read my reply above concerning Paul and James...

Your quoting of Romans 4:4-7 also does not help you because Paul was explaining the difference to the Jews about trying to be justified by the law of Moses and not speaking about works of "obedient faith" that we are required to do in order to be saved...

I wrote, "Where does the Bible state that "those who are saved, are the only ones who really can follow Jesus"??? I am still waiting for you to provide the passage(s) that state this to be true..."

To which you replied, "Salvation is the deliverance from the power of sin, Kevin. Without such a deliverence, man will not follow God. Salvation is God's mercy on us., and it comes to us by faith, not by what we do. We can do nothing apart from Him."

Your lack of scriptural support for this view of yours does not surprise me in the least Faith... One is not saved the "moment they believe" as you assert and the Bible nowhere gives any such evidence for this false notion...

Peter addressed this false belief of yours that one is saved at the moment of faith "alone" when he wrote through inspiration of the Holy Spirit in 1 Peter 1:3-9, "3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 to an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. 6 In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, you have been grieved by various trials, 7 that the genuineness of your faith, being much more precious than gold that perishes, though it is tested by fire, may be found to praise, honor, and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ, 8 whom having not seen you love. Though now you do not see Him, yet believing, you rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory, 9 receiving the end of your faith--the salvation of your souls."

We will not receive "the salvation of our souls" until Jesus returns on judgment day...

Your quoting of Romans 11:32 also does not help you... This merely states that men disobey, it does not state as you assert that one is unable to obey God until they are saved...

I wrote, "Jesus would not give us a commandment that we were not able to obey..."

To which you replied, "But Kevin--Scripture tells us that no one is perfect except for Jesus, no one is good except God, no--not one."

Please answer the question Faith... Did Jesus give us a commandment that we cannot obey??? If so, which one(s) and why???

You wrote, "Jesus was trying to express that if we want to go to heaven on our own accord--we would have to be perfect. He also pointed out that it is impossible for man to be perfect."

Who ever said that we are trying to get to heaven "on our own accord"??? If we do our best to apply God's word to our lives and through the Spirit "put to death the deeds of the body" (See Romans 8:12-13), are we the one's who are doing the work, or is it the Spirit of God that is helping us to do this "work"???

Your quoting of Matt 19:25-26 also does not help you... Did Jesus tell the rich man that if he sold all that he had and gave to the poor that he would be perfect??? Yes, he most certainly did and this you cannot deny... If the rich man would have done as Jesus had asked of him, he would have been just as promised "perfect"...

You wrote, "I know you think that this applied only to the rich man-- however, based on the disciples question or *Who* then can be saved if perfection is required?? Jesus responded that *with man* it is impossible. He didn't say that it was impossible just for rich men."

I will ask you again, was it possible for the rich man to sell all of his belongings and be "perfect"??? If not, why not???

I wrote, "I have asked you before and you ignored my request and I will ask this of you again... Please tell everyone here Faith how it is "impossible" for one to first, hear the gospel, then how it is "impossible" for one to believe the gospel, then how it is "impossible" for one to repent of their sins, then how it is "impossible" for one to confess their faith in the gospel, then how it is "impossible" for one to be baptized in water for the remission of their sins???"

To which you replied, "I never said it is impossible to have faith and be born-again, Kevin. You describe being born-again by faith. You also added the *in water* part, but I'll excuse it since it has no bearing on what we are actually discussing."

Please just answer the question Faith... Is it possible for one to obey the things I quoted above without first being "saved" as you assert??? If one cannot do the things I stated above that one must "do" in order to be saved, then please explain how they are not able to accomplish them???

I wrote, "Abraham was not called the "friend of God" until he did (i.e. obeyed) what God commanded him to do... (See James 2:20-26). To claim that Abraham was saved by "faith alone" which is what you advocate is false..."

To which you replied, "I am sorry again Kevin, but without faith, we really aren't going to obey God."

Okay, faith is the beginning point in our walk towards salvation, not the ending point and you have not proven anything to refute this truth... Without faith, one will not do any of the things I mentioned above... Just because it takes faith to accomplish these things, does not mean that they are saved at the point of faith in order to do them...

Your quoting of Gal 3:22; Gal 3:6-9 and Rom 4:1-3 also does not help you... Abraham was said to have "believed God" when he did what God told him to do and not before hand... He was not saved by his faith "alone" for this is exactly what James chapter 2 states, Abraham's faith along with his works of obedience are what saved him...

I wrote, "Please explain how I "dishonestly ignored" that which you quoted above???"

To which you replied, "Well you claimed that we think that we don't have to obey God."

Do you believe that one must obey all of God's commandments in the New Testament in order to be saved??? Yes or No...

-- Kevin Walker ("navyscporetired@comcast.net"), February 03, 2005.


Kevin says:

Sorry Faith but you are misinformed... The Bible says that we "will" be judged by our works. (See Rev. 20:12).

Yes, but that has nothing to do with salvation., just rewards in heaven.

Your continual quoting of Romans 3:22 does not help you either... There are no contradictions in the Bible and Rev. 20:12 states that we will be judge by our works...

I know there are no contradictions in the Bible Kevin. The contradiction are in men.

Rev. 20:12

And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. [Another book] was opened, which is the [book of life]. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books.

The verse above is not the judgement of those alive in Christ from the time they were born-again. The dead are unbelievers...those who were not found in the book of life.

God also says in Matt. 16:27, "For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works."

So?

Again in Rom. 2:6, "who "will render to each one according to his deeds"

Yep...

Another time in 2 Cor. 5:10, "For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad."

Right! But this is not the White Throne judgement of God--who judges the dead.

To claim that we will not be judged by our works is not true...

We will not be judged unto salvation Kevin. This is a judgement for rewards.

1 Cor 3: 13-15

...his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's work. If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames.

We are no longer under the Ten Commandments of the Old Testament... however, 9 of the 10 commandments were re-stated in the New Testament and yes we must keep them... If you are going to say that it is impossible to keep the 9 commandments (the only one missing is the sabbath keeping requirement), then please tell us which ones we are not able to keep???

Unless we are perfect and sinless., we are unable to please God because all our good deeds are as filthy rags. You delude yourself if you think you can live a perfect life. If you have ever so much as looked at a woman and had a sexual thought in you mind, you have already broken the commandment not to commit adultery.

Your quoting of Romans 3: 27-31 does not help you... This speaks of the Old Testament law(s) that have been done away with at the cross...

Yes, this is true. But how is this so? Jesus did not abolish the Law-- He fulfilled it. He became the required perfection unto salvation that the Law demanded. Not by our works--but by the work of Christ, we are saved when we believe it. This is God's mercy on us the sinners who cannot accomplish perfection.

You say that we will not be judged by our works and no, I did not "exclude Paul" as you assert, Paul wrote about the "works of the law" and James wrote about the "works of obedient faith"...

That is your opinion.,but I see that Paul and James were saying the same thing. Works cannot save us.., and yet, good deeds are evidence of a faith that is real. Paul was addressing Gentiles and the church-- not the Jews.

Your quoting of Romans 4:4-7 also does not help you because Paul was explaining the difference to the Jews about trying to be justified by the law of Moses and not speaking about works of "obedient faith" that we are required to do in order to be saved...

No., I don't think so since Paul was not addressing the Jews--but the Gentiles in Rome.

Your lack of scriptural support for this view of yours does not surprise me in the least Faith... One is not saved the "moment they believe" as you assert and the Bible nowhere gives any such evidence for this false notion...

John 5:24

“I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life.

Peter addressed this false belief of yours that one is saved at the moment of faith "alone" when he wrote through inspiration of the Holy Spirit in 1 Peter 1:3-9

Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, and into an inheritance that can never perish, spoil or fadekept in heaven for you, who through faith are shielded by God's power (salvation) until the coming of the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time. In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while you may have had to suffer grief in all kinds of trials. These have come so that your faith–of greater worth than gold, which perishes even though refined by fire–may be proved genuine and may result in praise, glory and honor when Jesus Christ is revealed. Though you have not seen him, you love him; and even though you do not see him now, you believe in him and are filled with an inexpressible and glorious joy, for you are receiving the goal of your faith, the salvation of your souls.

I think that those verses support my claim that we are saved (present tense) by faith and do have salvation now--even though the blessings of salvation are not received until after this life.

We will not receive "the salvation of our souls" until Jesus returns on judgment day...

We actually receive the blessings of our salvation (that we had since we believed)--which is eternal life.

Your quoting of Romans 11:32 also does not help you... This merely states that men disobey, it does not state as you assert that one is unable to obey God until they are saved...

One is unable to obey unless he is of the Spirit.

Who ever said that we are trying to get to heaven "on our own accord"??? If we do our best to apply God's word to our lives and through the Spirit "put to death the deeds of the body" (See Romans 8:12-13), are we the one's who are doing the work, or is it the Spirit of God that is helping us to do this "work"???

We can only obey with the Spirit in us, which only comes to us when we are born-again. Works are done because we are saved, not in order to get saved.

Your quoting of Matt 19:25-26 also does not help you... Did Jesus tell the rich man that if he sold all that he had and gave to the poor that he would be perfect??? Yes, he most certainly did and this you cannot deny... If the rich man would have done as Jesus had asked of him, he would have been just as promised "perfect"...

The point of the verese was to show that no one can do these things. No one. That is why the disciples were astonished and asked, Who then can be saved if we have to do all these things? Jesus said that it was impossible for man!

You wrote, "I know you think that this applied only to the rich man-- however, based on the disciples question or *Who* then can be saved if perfection is required?? Jesus responded that *with man* it is impossible. He didn't say that it was impossible just for rich men."

I will ask you again, was it possible for the rich man to sell all of his belongings and be "perfect"??? If not, why not???

Well, the verses show us that it was impossible for this man to do all that Jesus was listing. The man walked away with his head hung. Remember that Jesus continued to list more and more things that one has to do if he wants to be perfect.

Please just answer the question Faith... Is it possible for one to obey the things I quoted above without first being "saved" as you assert??? If one cannot do the things I stated above that one must "do" in order to be saved, then please explain how they are not able to accomplish them???

You are confused Kevin. The things you listed are the process of being born again--which is regeneration or salvation from the power of sin as well as the penalty of sin. After this, we are able to follow Jesus and resist sin..... Those things you listed are about a moment of faith and rebirth. The commands you talk about are the works I am refering to....

Okay, faith is the beginning point in our walk towards salvation, not the ending point and you have not proven anything to refute this truth... Without faith, one will not do any of the things I mentioned above... Just because it takes faith to accomplish these things, does not mean that they are saved at the point of faith in order to do them...

Well what do you think salvation is Kevin? Eternal life?

To me, salvation is being saved from the the power and penalty of sin- - which is death--or separation from God. Eternal life is the obvious blessing of salvation.

Your quoting of Gal 3:22; Gal 3:6-9 and Rom 4:1-3 also does not help you... Abraham was said to have "believed God" when he did what God told him to do and not before hand...

No Kevin--Abraham did what God told Him to do because He first believed God...it was His faith and trust in God that enabled Him to *do* what God told him to do.

He was not saved by his faith "alone" for this is exactly what James chapter 2 states, Abraham's faith along with his works of obedience are what saved him... Nope. Jame's point is that it was Abraham's obedience that revealed His faith.

Do you believe that one must obey all of God's commandments in the New Testament in order to be saved??? Yes or No...

I believe that only those who are saved by their faith can and will follow Jesus....



-- (faith01@myway.com), February 04, 2005.


Italics off

-- (faith01@myway.com), February 04, 2005.

Perhaps now.

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), February 04, 2005.

No Zarove--I had them off or otherwise my email address would have appeared in italics.

-- (faith01@myway.com), February 04, 2005.

Sorry, hadntnoticed, just saw th words...

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), February 04, 2005.

Faith,

I wrote, "Sorry Faith but you are misinformed... The Bible says that we "will" be judged by our works. (See Rev. 20:12)."

To which you replied, "Yes, but that has nothing to do with salvation., just rewards in heaven."

That is only your opinion Faith... It is however, not what the Bible states... The Bible never states that those who are Christians will judged and only be given rewards in heaven...

I wrote, "Your continual quoting of Romans 3:22 does not help you either... There are no contradictions in the Bible and Rev. 20:12 states that we will be judge by our works..."

To which you replied, "I know there are no contradictions in the Bible Kevin. The contradiction are in men."

Specifically in those who state that we will not be judged by our works and those who say that Christians will only be judged and receive rewards based on their works that is not true...

You quoted, "Rev. 20:12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. [Another book] was opened, which is the [book of life]. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books."

Then said, "The verse above is not the judgement of those alive in Christ from the time they were born-again. The dead are unbelievers...those who were not found in the book of life."

Where is your proof that the verse above is "not the judgment of those alive in Christ from the time they were born-again"??? And where is your proof that "The dead are unbelievers"???

The fact of the matter is that Christians can have their names blotted out of the book of life for this is exactly what Rev. 3:5 teaches, "He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels."

To claim that Rev. 20:12 is only speaking of "unbelievers" is not true... Why even mention the "book of life" in Rev. 20:15 if unbelievers never have their names written there??? "And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire."

Everyone will be judged at the same time, and just as the Bible says "anyone not found written in the Book of Life" will be "cast into the lake of fire"...

I wrote, "God also says in Matt. 16:27, "For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works."

To which you replied, "So?"

Do you still not understand Faith??? We will all be judged according to our "works" and the Christian will also be judged, if their name is not found in the book of Life, they will be thrown into the lake of fire, if they are in the book of Life, they will receive rewards based on their works, i.e. their obedience to what has been written in the New Testament...

I wrote, "Again in Rom. 2:6, "who "will render to each one according to his deeds"

To which you replied, "Yep..."

First you say "So", now you say "Yep"???

Here is the continuation of that verse I quoted above, "7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; 8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness--indignation and wrath, 9 tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek; 10 but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 11 For there is no partiality with God." (Rom 2:7- 11).

I wrote, "Another time in 2 Cor. 5:10, "For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad."

To which you replied, "Right! But this is not the White Throne judgement of God--who judges the dead."

Again, this is only your opinion... There is only one judgment day, not many as you advocate... I have already corrected your error on this subject once... God (the Father) will not judge for it is written in John 5:22, "For the Father judges no one, but has committed all judgment to the Son,"

Jesus will be our judge, not God the Father...

Here are some verses that prove this to be true:

Matt 16:27, "For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works."

Matt 25:31-33, "31 When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. 33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left."

Here is the final icing on the cake... John 5:27-29, "27 and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man. 28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth 29 -- those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation."

Please notice that "all" who are in the graves will hear His (Jesus) voice and come forth... Please also notice that there will be two groups of people who are being judged... Those who have done good will attain to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation... There is only one judgement...

There are many more verses that prove this to be true however what I have quoted is sufficient to prove that what I say is true...

I wrote, "To claim that we will not be judged by our works is not true..."

To which you replied, "We will not be judged unto salvation Kevin. This is a judgement for rewards."

Go back and re-read John 5:27-29... What you say is not true... We will be judged for salvation... We do not receive salvation in this life...

Your quoting of 1 Cor 3: 13-15 also does not help you... You do not understand this verse, otherwise you would not keep quoting it... Please notice that it is the "day" that will bring their works to light... The "works" that are being spoken of in these verses are not their works, it is those who they have been taught... Go back and re-read 1 Cor 3:6-13 which states, "6 I planted, Apollos watered, but God gave the increase. 7 So then neither he who plants is anything, nor he who waters, but God who gives the increase. 8 Now he who plants and he who waters are one, and each one will receive his own reward according to his own labor. 9 For we are God's fellow workers; you are God's field, you are God's building. 10 According to the grace of God which was given to me, as a wise master builder I have laid the foundation, and another builds on it. But let each one take heed how he builds on it. 11 For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13 each one's work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one's work, of what sort it is."

The "work" spoken of here in these verses is one's teaching of another Christian...

I wrote, "We are no longer under the Ten Commandments of the Old Testament... however, 9 of the 10 commandments were re-stated in the New Testament and yes we must keep them... If you are going to say that it is impossible to keep the 9 commandments (the only one missing is the sabbath keeping requirement), then please tell us which ones we are not able to keep???"

To which you replied, "Unless we are perfect and sinless., we are unable to please God because all our good deeds are as filthy rags."

Please answer the question Faith... Which of the 9 commandments as restated in the NT are we not able to keep??? Just because all of our "good deeds are as filthy rags" does that mean that we cannot obey God's commandments??? Where does it state in the New Testament that we cannot keep God's commandments "unless we are perfect and sinless"??? Jesus told us that if we love Him, we are to "keep" His commandments. (John 14:15). We are able to do this thing that Jesus commanded otherwise what Jesus said is not true... Are you now going to say that Jesus lied when He made that statement???

You wrote, "You delude yourself if you think you can live a perfect life."

I never said that I could "live a perfect life"... No one can "live a perfect life" and God knows this... We are to "perfect holiness" and we are to put off the "deeds of the body" and we are to keep God's commandments for this is exactly what the NT teaches... To deny these facts is to deny what God said in His word... Remember, we will be judged by what is written in the NT and our obedience to God's words...

You wrote, "If you have ever so much as looked at a woman and had a sexual thought in you mind, you have already broken the commandment not to commit adultery."

Ok and I have done this very thing and repented of my lack of faith... Just because one "breaks the commandment" does not mean that they cannot obey God's commandments... The more that we let God's word dwell in us and the more we have faith that Jesus will deliver us from the power of sin, the more we continue to do our best to live our lives in such a way that we are pleasing to God... Go back and re-read Romans 8:13...

I wrote, "Your quoting of Romans 3: 27-31 does not help you... This speaks of the Old Testament law(s) that have been done away with at the cross..."

To which you replied, "Yes, this is true. But how is this so? Jesus did not abolish the Law-- He fulfilled it. He became the required perfection unto salvation that the Law demanded. Not by our works-- but by the work of Christ, we are saved when we believe it. This is God's mercy on us the sinners who cannot accomplish perfection."

In "fulfilling" the Law, this means that it has ben taken away... In other words, the old law is no longer in force...

I wrote, "You say that we will not be judged by our works and no, I did not "exclude Paul" as you assert, Paul wrote about the "works of the law" and James wrote about the "works of obedient faith"..."

To which you replied, "That is your opinion.,but I see that Paul and James were saying the same thing. Works cannot save us.., and yet, good deeds are evidence of a faith that is real. Paul was addressing Gentiles and the church-- not the Jews."

No Faith it is not my opinion, it is what the Bible teaches... Yes, Paul most certainly was addressing the Jews, why would he even be stating anything concerning the Jews if he were "only" addressing the Gentiles??? Were there Jews in the church at Rome???

I wrote, "Your quoting of Romans 4:4-7 also does not help you because Paul was explaining the difference to the Jews about trying to be justified by the law of Moses and not speaking about works of "obedient faith" that we are required to do in order to be saved..."

To which you replied, "No., I don't think so since Paul was not addressing the Jews--but the Gentiles in Rome."

Again I will ask you the question... Why did Paul even bring up things concerning the old Law if he were not addressing the Jews in Rome??? The Gentiles have never been required to keep the old Law, so if Paul was giving only the Gentiles this information, then he was wasting his time...

I wrote, "Your lack of scriptural support for this view of yours does not surprise me in the least Faith... One is not saved the "moment they believe" as you assert and the Bible nowhere gives any such evidence for this false notion..."

Then you quoted, "John 5:24 "I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life."

This verse does not help you Faith... One verse in the Bible is not how we are all saved... One must take "all" of what is stated concerning salvation... In James 1:23-24, God says, "23 For if anyone is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man observing his natural face in a mirror; 24 for he observes himself, goes away, and immediately forgets what kind of man he was."

One must "do" all of what God says in His word concerning salvation and "faith alone" salvation never saved anyone...

I wrote, "Peter addressed this false belief of yours that one is saved at the moment of faith "alone" when he wrote through inspiration of the Holy Spirit in 1 Peter 1:3-9"

To which you replied, "I think that those verses support my claim that we are saved (present tense) by faith and do have salvation now- -even though the blessings of salvation are not received until after this life."

Again Faith your "opinion" is not in accordance with what has been revealed in the Bible... We do not receive the "salvation of our souls" until the "end" of our faith (past tense) which is exactly what 1 Peter 1:9 teaches...

I wrote, "We will not receive "the salvation of our souls" until Jesus returns on judgment day..."

To which you replied, "We actually receive the blessings of our salvation (that we had since we believed)--which is eternal life."

Again this is another assertion of yours that is not in accordance with what has been revealed in the NT...

I wrote, "Your quoting of Romans 11:32 also does not help you... This merely states that men disobey, it does not state as you assert that one is unable to obey God until they are saved..."

To which you replied, "One is unable to obey unless he is of the Spirit."

I will ask you again, where is your proof that "one is unable to obey unless he is of the Spirit"???

I wrote, "Who ever said that we are trying to get to heaven "on our own accord"??? If we do our best to apply God's word to our lives and through the Spirit "put to death the deeds of the body" (See Romans 8:12-13), are we the one's who are doing the work, or is it the Spirit of God that is helping us to do this "work"???"

To which you replied, "We can only obey with the Spirit in us, which only comes to us when we are born-again. Works are done because we are saved, not in order to get saved."

Where is your proof of this Faith??? Why does one need to some outside indwelling of the Holy Spirit in them in order to do the things commanded by Jesus???

I wrote, "Your quoting of Matt 19:25-26 also does not help you... Did Jesus tell the rich man that if he sold all that he had and gave to the poor that he would be perfect??? Yes, he most certainly did and this you cannot deny... If the rich man would have done as Jesus had asked of him, he would have been just as promised "perfect"..."

To which you replied, "The point of the verese was to show that no one can do these things. No one. That is why the disciples were astonished and asked, Who then can be saved if we have to do all these things? Jesus said that it was impossible for man!"

So you are saying that it was "impossible" for the rich man to go and sell all of his goods???

I wrote, "I will ask you again, was it possible for the rich man to sell all of his belongings and be "perfect"??? If not, why not???"

To which you replied, "Well, the verses show us that it was impossible for this man to do all that Jesus was listing. The man walked away with his head hung. Remember that Jesus continued to list more and more things that one has to do if he wants to be perfect."

No, it wasn't "impossible" for this man to do all that Jesus was asking... Please explain how "hard" it would be for this man to go and sell all of his possessions... Was it "impossible" for this rich man to go and do this thing??? Certainly not...

I wrote, "Please just answer the question Faith... Is it possible for one to obey the things I quoted above without first being "saved" as you assert??? If one cannot do the things I stated above that one must "do" in order to be saved, then please explain how they are not able to accomplish them???"

To which you replied, "You are confused Kevin. The things you listed are the process of being born again--which is regeneration or salvation from the power of sin as well as the penalty of sin. After this, we are able to follow Jesus and resist sin..... Those things you listed are about a moment of faith and rebirth. The commands you talk about are the works I am refering to...."

No, I am not confused Faith... The process I listed for you are what God requires in order to have one's sins initially washed away... One does not need to have some "external" dwelling of the Holy Spirit in them as you assert in order to accomplish what I listed above...

I wrote, "Okay, faith is the beginning point in our walk towards salvation, not the ending point and you have not proven anything to refute this truth... Without faith, one will not do any of the things I mentioned above... Just because it takes faith to accomplish these things, does not mean that they are saved at the point of faith in order to do them..."

To which you replied, "Well what do you think salvation is Kevin? Eternal life? To me, salvation is being saved from the the power and penalty of sin- - which is death--or separation from God. Eternal life is the obvious blessing of salvation."

Again, we do not inherit "salvation" at the moment we believe... We will not inherit salvation until the day of judgment...

I wrote, "Your quoting of Gal 3:22; Gal 3:6-9 and Rom 4:1-3 also does not help you... Abraham was said to have "believed God" when he did what God told him to do and not before hand..."

To which you replied, "No Kevin--Abraham did what God told Him to do because He first believed God...it was His faith and trust in God that enabled Him to *do* what God told him to do."

Okay, this does not mean that his faith saved him before he acted... He was not called the "friend of God" until he acted upon his faith and did what God told him to do...

I wrote, "He was not saved by his faith "alone" for this is exactly what James chapter 2 states, Abraham's faith along with his works of obedience are what saved him..."

To which you replied, "Nope. Jame's point is that it was Abraham's obedience that revealed His faith."

Yep... It was Abraham's obedience to God's commands that allowed him to be saved... His faith would have not saved him if he did not act...

I wrote, "Do you believe that one must obey all of God's commandments in the New Testament in order to be saved??? Yes or No..."

To which you replied, "I believe that only those who are saved by their faith can and will follow Jesus...."

This is your continuing assertion that has no basis in the truth of God's word...

-- Kevin Walker ("navyscporetired@comcast.net"), February 05, 2005.


bump...

-- Kevin Walker ("navyscporetired@comcast.net"), February 10, 2005.

Topping for Faith...

-- Kevin Walker ("navyscporetired@comcast.net"), February 15, 2005.

Is the third time a charm???

-- Kevin Walker ("navyscporetired@comcast.net"), February 21, 2005.

Faith,

This is the thread I was talking about that you did not answer...

-- Kevin Walker ("navyscporetired@comcast.net"), February 28, 2005.


It's useless to beat a dead horse Kevin.

I have certainly addressed all those things before.

You just acyt as though I haven't.

You know what I believe and I know what you believe.

Just look at your last argument--if you want to call it that:

You said: I wrote, "Do you believe that one must obey all of God's commandments in the New Testament in order to be saved??? Yes or No..."

To which you replied, "I believe that only those who are saved by their faith can and will follow Jesus...."

This is your continuing assertion that has no basis in the truth of God's word...

*****************

So what should I do now? Should I say my argument all over again, so that you can again say that I am wrong? My argument is based in God's truth Kevin. The Scriptures tell us that apart from God--we can do no good. Therefore, we obey God because we are saved. we don't obey God in order to get saved because we are saved by anything we do. We are saved by faith. Those who are truly saved, can do nothing other than obey God.

Perhaps if you shortened your posts--I might be compelled to answer you, but for the most part--I see that long thing--full of redundancy and I think, oh no! This again?? I roll my eyes and think--maybe tomorrow!

It's too much.

I have made what I believe clear, and why I think you are wrong-- perfectly clear as well.

-- (faith01@myway.com), February 28, 2005.


correction:

Therefore, we obey God because we are saved., we don't obey God in order to get saved because we aren't saved by anything we do.

-- (faith01@myway.com), February 28, 2005.


Hi Kevin,

I mentioned the 1 Cor. passage on another thread, but I see you have it quoted here, so let me go ahead and ask you a question about "the works being the teachings" that you stated above. I think it is teachings if you are called to be a teacher, but don't you think the "works" he is referring to are more likely to be the "fruits of the spirit," -- love, joy, peace, patience, self control, because Jesus says he will throw the fruitless vine into the fire.

Or why do you think it's just "teaching"?

Gail

BTW, the "work" you provided Faith didn't go to waste. It is very thorough and well constructed. Too bad she won't read it! But hey, you can lead a horse to water . . .

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), February 28, 2005.


I did read it Gail.

It's the same old, same old.

It seems you are impressed with Kevin, Gail--and that should scare you. Especially since he thinks I called him names when I said he sounds Catholic!

-- (faith01@myway.com), February 28, 2005.


"Especially since he thinks I called him names when I said he sounds Catholic!" Yeah, I know, Faith, so what were you hoping for? A little discord, a little strife, a little division, a little "heated argument," a little name calling? You thrive on that stuff. You call him a Catholic, hoping he'll insult me in his rebuff of your insult, thereby you can really "stir the pot."

Sorry, I'm not biting on that bait!

The truth is that while I strongly disagree with Kevin on big issues, and he with me, I respect his scriptural knowledge, and the fact that he admits when he's wrong! AND the most important thing about debating Kevin is he ACTUALLY looks at the scriptures you provide and gives thoughtful replies, earnestly trying to read scripture in light of scripture. Hermeneutics -- it's an art!

Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), February 28, 2005.


Faith,

You wrote, "It's useless to beat a dead horse Kevin. I have certainly addressed all those things before. You just acyt as though I haven't."

I didn't say you didn't address them, I just wanted your response to my post... That is not a difficult thing to want now is it???

You wrote, "You know what I believe and I know what you believe."

And many of your beliefs are not in accordance with the word of God...

You wrote, "Just look at your last argument--if you want to call it that: You said: I wrote, "Do you believe that one must obey all of God's commandments in the New Testament in order to be saved??? Yes or No..." To which you replied, "I believe that only those who are saved by their faith can and will follow Jesus...." This is your continuing assertion that has no basis in the truth of God's word..."

I asked you a simple Yes or No question... Is it that hard to answer???

You wrote, "So what should I do now? Should I say my argument all over again, so that you can again say that I am wrong? My argument is based in God's truth Kevin. The Scriptures tell us that apart from God--we can do no good. Therefore, we obey God because we are saved. we don't obey God in order to get saved because we are saved by anything we do. We are saved by faith. Those who are truly saved, can do nothing other than obey God."

You can claim all you want "we obey because we are saved" however, you will not find one scripture to back up your argument... Don't you find that odd??? I find it amazing that you provide little scriptural support for your arguments... This does not surprise me in the least because most false teachers have a problem proving their doctrines... You chasitise the Catholics because their doctrines are not found in God's word and yet many of your doctrines are not there either???

You wrote, "Perhaps if you shortened your posts--I might be compelled to answer you, but for the most part--I see that long thing--full of redundancy and I think, oh no! This again?? I roll my eyes and think--maybe tomorrow!"

You see, that is the problem... You don't want to answer my posts... Complaining about them does not help you one bit... If you don't like the way I post, then don't bother getting into a debate with me... Don't give a cop out like you just did, "oh no! This again???"... My posts are not "redundant" as you assert... If they are, then I challenge you to prove it... Otherwise your words mean nothing...

You wrote, "It's too much."

No it isn't... If you are interested in learning the truth or seeking the truth, no matter how short or how long someone's posts are, they should be reviewed and pondered in light of scripture...

You wrote, "I have made what I believe clear, and why I think you are wrong-- perfectly clear as well."

And you have been refuted at every turn and yet you refuse to see the truth that is plain enough in scripture for everyone to see... I don't just make assertions like you do Faith, I prove them...

-- Kevin Walker ("navyscporetired@comcast.net"), February 28, 2005.


Gail,

You wrote, "Hi Kevin, I mentioned the 1 Cor. passage on another thread, but I see you have it quoted here, so let me go ahead and ask you a question about "the works being the teachings" that you stated above. I think it is teachings if you are called to be a teacher, but don't you think the "works" he is referring to are more likely to be the "fruits of the spirit," -- love, joy, peace, patience, self control, because Jesus says he will throw the fruitless vine into the fire."

Yes... and not only the "fruit of the Spirit" but all of the works of the "flesh" that we are to put off also...

You wrote, "Or why do you think it's just "teaching"?"

Can you explain yourself a little bit more... I am not sure I understand your request... Thanks...

You wrote, "BTW, the "work" you provided Faith didn't go to waste. It is very thorough and well constructed. Too bad she won't read it! But hey, you can lead a horse to water . . . "

She has already basically said that she doesn't read my posts... because they are too long... lol...

-- Kevin Walker ("navyscporetired@comcast.net"), February 28, 2005.


Your posts aren't THAT long. I read them in a few minutes. Since you copy the part of the post you're responding to it just makes them LOOK long. But Oh, well.

*****

I thought you were saying that the "works" are teachings, and that's all they are. That's why I asked you to elaborate a little. I used to think this passage was ONLY about building churches because it talks about laying the foundation, etc., and that it only referred to church builders. But that really couldn't be it because then a person (or builder's) reward would depend on whether his work (or church) lasted! And how could a person be responsible for what other's do with his work (or church)!

These passages MUST refer to ALL of us. We will all "pass through the fire." So we agree that the Lord will burn away "dead fruit" (or as Christ states "a vine that bears NO fruit will be cast into the furnace) revealing only the "peaceful fruit of righteousness" . . .?

Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), February 28, 2005.


Gail,

Why do you think that *we* are passing through any fire--when the verse is clearly speaking of our works?*%#?

The author than uses the fire as an analogy to the fact that we are saved even though we were uneffective Christians. Even though our works failed the test, we are still saved.

Why do you think that is??

-- (faith01@myway.com), March 01, 2005.


Gail,

You wrote, "I thought you were saying that the "works" are teachings, and that's all they are. That's why I asked you to elaborate a little."

Here is a little bit more on 1 Cor 3

Verse 6 "I planted, Apollos watered, but God gave the increase."

Paul planted (i.e. he taught the gospel), Apollos watered (i.e. he taught them doctrine - remember he was mighty in the Scriptures - Acts 18:24) and God gave the increase...

Verse 7 "So then neither he who plants is anything, nor he who waters, but God who gives the increase."

Verse 8 "Now he who plants and he who waters are one, and each one will receive his own reward according to his own labor."

Paul and those who teach the gospel will receive their rewards based on their own labors or teaching...

Depending on the success of their teaching, (verse 13) they will either be rewarded if their work endures, (verse 14) or suffer loss (the loss of a fellow Christian) if their work is burned (verse 15)...

-- Kevin Walker ("navyscporetired@comcast.net"), March 01, 2005.


Yes, Kevin, I see your point. As to how this would apply to laypeople, we are all witnesses of Christ to all we meet, and as we all may not be "teachers" per se, we certainly must witness to the truth, evangelize, and be "Christ" to those we meet. So in essence we are all building upon the foundation which is Christ Jesus, sometimes in small ways, but sometimes in big ways; hence we must "bear fruit worthy of the kingdom of God."

Faith, I think somehow you

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), March 01, 2005.


Faith:

"Why do you think that 'we' are passing through any fire--when the verse is clearly speaking of our works?" Verse 15 ". . . he himself will be saved but as through fire."

"The author than uses the fire as an analogy to the fact that we are saved even though we were uneffective Christians. Even though our works failed the test, we are still saved." I thought we were talking about the purification of those who leave this world as carnal Christians ....? At least that's what I have been talking about.

"Why do you think that is??" Why do I think WHAT is?

***

The work the Lord begins in each of us must be finished, completed, perfected. "He who began a good work in you is faithful to complete it." If it is not done in this age, it WILL be in the age to come. That is a marvelous thing! How aweful to think that Christ would bring us to heaven to live with Him only for us to go on struggling with sin for all eternity!

Believers who are "saved" through the fire, while they may not have much to show for their earthly journey, at least their dead works have been burned away.

You assume the works are all external, like you're showing the Lord a project you completed. But it's much much more than that, "Out of the abundance of the heart, the mouth speaks," and out of "what we ARE we act." "If the tree is bad, the fruit is bad." "No rotten tree can produce good fruit." And "every rotten tree that doesn't produce good fruit is cast into the furnace." And "You will be judged by every careless word that proceeds from your mouth." (My paraphrases of Christ's admonitions.)

That's why all of the judgment scriptures show Christ casting AWAY those who did not do good works. The works are simply a reflection of what's in the heart = the tree was rotten therefore the fruit is rotten!

Christ is now, and will continue to remove not only the stain of sin, but every single solitary inclination we have to sin . . . that is what "final purification" is.

G--

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), March 01, 2005.


Notice, though Gail--

...that God does the completing, the purifying and the saving--based on His Son and His work and perfection. We cannot save ourselves, nor can we suffer for our own sin to be purified. Christ accomplished that at the cross.

Gail, whether you admit it or not--I think we are saying the same thing. However--yours is a theology that you originally learned as a Protestant. But now you are trying to infuse Catholicism into it.

The verses in 1 Corinthians speaks of our works as Christians., and the analogy to fire with respect to our salvation is not saying that we ourselves pass through any fire to be purified. The analogy is telling us that in spite of the fact that our works burned up--we are still saved--even if by the skin on our teeth.

-- (faith01@myway.com), March 02, 2005.


"...that God does the completing, the purifying and the saving--based on His Son and His work and perfection. We cannot save ourselves, nor can we suffer for our own sin to be purified. Christ accomplished that at the cross." ABSOLUTELY!

But we must cooperate with the work of the Holy Spirit; i.e., transforming us into the likeness of Christ. This is where you get hung up. If we do not cooperate with the grace of God, we will bear very little fruit, and will produce much fruit for the burning. Even if I FULLY cooperate, He still gets ALL the glory; all I have done is say "Yes" Lord, and let Him accomplish what He has begun.

I don't think we disagree that much on this issue either. But you are wrong to think that Protestantism gave me the foundation and that I am trying to infuse catholocism with it. Protestantism never gave me the answer to the question of post-death purification, or "Will we be be able to sin in heaven?" I asked many Protestant pastors the question, but never got an answer.

I think you may have some misconceptions as to what the Church actually teaches on purgatory. It is not a dungeon where we are strapped to a wall and the whips and lashes come out to beat the devil out of of us. It is simply that final work of the Holy Spirit.

Here it is again.

1030 All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.

Could you specifically tell me what part of this paragraph you disagree with.

G--

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), March 02, 2005.


I disagree with the idea that anyone found in Christ can be found imperfectly purified. Christ's atonement is complete and we are made perfect by His suffering and sacrifice. He did not do an incomplete job.

Purgatory is an invention of man, and is not taught in the Scriptures. What is taught is that Christ's work at the cross was complete--fully sufficient and able to save all who would come to Him.

-- (faith01@myway.com), March 02, 2005.


If you're perfect now, Faith, then why do you still sin?

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), March 02, 2005.

I already said that we are not completely perfected until His return, Gail, so why do you keep going on about things I didn't say? I never said that I am perfect. I said that no one is perfect! Our baptism symbolizes the rebirth/resurrection that we will physically experience in the end.

-- (faith01@myway.com), March 02, 2005.

You said "I disagree with the idea that anyone found in Christ can be found imperfectly purified. Christ's atonement is complete and we are made perfect by His suffering and sacrifice. He did not do an incomplete job."

Then you said, "I already said that we are not completely perfected until His return, Gail, so why do you keep going on about things I didn't say? I never said that I am perfect. I said that no one is perfect! Our baptism symbolizes the rebirth/resurrection that we will physically experience in the end."

So you are imperfect NOW, and when you die your soul will remain imperfect until Christ returns . . .? (I'm simply trying to understand your position, Faith.)

Where will your imperfect soul dwell until Christ returns?

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), March 02, 2005.


Well Gail,

As I am sure you already know--there are different schools of thought about that.

Personally, I don't believe in a soul sleep because the Scriptures tell us that it is better to be apart from the body, because to be apart from the body is to be with Christ. Therefore, I think our soul goes to be with Him. We dwell in perfection at that moment that we die. We belong to Him because He paid for us.

Then when Christ returns, He brings us with Him, calls our bodies up out of the grave--and we are reunited physically with our new, incoruptable and immortal bodies.

At the same time--I also think that when we die--we pass immediately into the rapture and then we are with Christ forever....

This kind of thinking gets a little tricky. How can we truly understand fully the things of God? He hyas given us as much as He knows we can reasonably handle. The Scriptures are somewhat unclear about these specifics.

But one thing is absolutely clear. We get to heaven based on Christ and His work., not on anything we do. We cannot earn our salvation or purify ourselves by any amount of work or suffering. The Scriptures teach that we are saved by faith in the blood of Jesus Christ.

That is not to say that we don't have to be obedient or pick up His cross and follow Him. But we will be obedient and we will follow because we believe and have received the salvation or deliverance from sin that we need in order to be able to follow Him. The Bible tells us that unless we have the Spirit of God in us--we cannot do any good nor do we want to.

Perserverance and obedience are the fruit of the spirit in us. It is Christ who strengthens us and enables us to endure. We don't endure to receive Christ--we receive Christ by faith and then endure to the finish. If we don't, then our faith was dead, not real.

-- (faith01@myway.com), March 02, 2005.


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