God is Fair to all peoples?

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So back in The Day, God created everything. All men are created by God, and he loves them all, equally, right?

Why then did God choose only to spread the word to a select few? Surely as God, he'd have given everyone the ability to choose whether to accept Christ? Why give the job of spreading the word to a select few, what makes them any better than anyone else? Is this not discrimination?

Why were the apostles chosen? Why not have different apostles, at least for different continents? Why has God made it so that only certain people have to make the choice, whilst others do not? Why would a fair, and equi-loving God deliberately test some, but allow others an effective free ride?

-- Tri (tridudeheh@yahoo.com), January 28, 2005

Answers

First, to ask "why" God did such and such is to assume that mere men can understand the infinite mind of God; so such questions are generally futile. We can't even state with certainty "why" another human being does what he does, let alone the Creator of the universe.

Secondly, it was precisely because of God's perfect love for ALL men that He founded the Church, endowed it with the power of the Holy Spirit, and commissioned it to "make disciples of ALL nations". In response to that command the Apostles traveled throughout the known world, spreading the good news of salvation. So there were in fact "different Apostles for different continents", sent there by the Church, and those Apostles ordained others who likewise carried the Gospel to distant regions, a process which has continued in every age to the present day as the Church continues to obey its divine commission, sending missionaries to every nation in the world.

If Christ was going to found a Church, it had to start somewhere. Would you suggest that He be born, carry on His public ministry, and found His Church in many places simultaneously?

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), January 28, 2005.


I htink yo overlook the obvious. The apostles where appoitned to TEACH to ALL natiosn,as Paul M points out.

He revealed the turht to a small number frst, ebcause it wodil have been impossibel baring a alrge scale miracle to diemenate information to everyone all at once.

He chose the Jews and gave them Israel for a reason, one peopel to form and mould intot he crrect midnset needed to fulfill his plan. and look a the Pormised Land, right on the crossroads of the world, the trade routes and roman roads ensured that the messgae woil be carried far and wide.

Basiclaly, he elected a small grup of perhaps 500 to teahc and preach after his Ministry ended because that was al it took, and now christanity is the worlds largest religion. So I dotn see hwo tis disrimianiton.

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), January 28, 2005.


First, to ask "why" God did such and such is to assume that mere men can understand the infinite mind of God; so such questions are generally futile. We can't even state with certainty "why" another human being does what he does, let alone the Creator of the universe.

Whilst I both understand and appreciate your acceptance of this point, it's a bit of a cop out. 'God works in mysterious ways', yes, this I know.

Secondly, it was precisely because of God's perfect love for ALL men that He founded the Church, endowed it with the power of the Holy Spirit, and commissioned it to "make disciples of ALL nations".

Yet still, thousands of years on, there are people who don't have to be tested in the same way as others. Is God maybe telling us that the most primitive and undeveloped of people are the ones doing it right, and Christ was sent to help the (developed) sinners?

In response to that command the Apostles traveled throughout the known world, spreading the good news of salvation. So there were in fact "different Apostles for different continents", sent there by the Church, and those Apostles ordained others who likewise carried the Gospel to distant regions, a process which has continued in every age to the present day as the Church continues to obey its divine commission, sending missionaries to every nation in the world.

The known world? Was Christ (son of the all-knowing God) unaware of the as yet undiscovered continents? The man could walk on water, he survived 40 days and 40 nights in a desert, a bit of a mission across the Atlantic to see the native indians wouldn't have been a problem for him. He didn't tell anyone about any other lands, thinking about it.

If Christ was going to found a Church, it had to start somewhere. Would you suggest that He be born, carry on His public ministry, and found His Church in many places simultaneously?

Well why not? He's Christ. Why not tell everyone at once, surely it's fairer?

He revealed the turht to a small number frst, ebcause it wodil have been impossibel baring a alrge scale miracle to diemenate information to everyone all at once.

Impossible? For the son of God? God personified, according to some.

He chose the Jews and gave them Israel for a reason, one peopel to form and mould intot he crrect midnset needed to fulfill his plan. and look a the Pormised Land, right on the crossroads of the world, the trade routes and roman roads ensured that the messgae woil be carried far and wide.

Definitely. But objectively, that's nothing to do with God. That's just manipulatively ensuring that your message reaches as many people as possible, that can be done by spammers, to be fair. Why bother waiting for the trade routes? God wiped out the earth with a flood when he wanted to make his power known, I don't see why he'd have had to wait for a message to spread. Joan of Arc gets all kinds of saints coming and chatting to her, why doesnt everyone else, if we're going to be completely, fairly all-loving?

-- Tri (tridudeheh@yahoo.com), January 29, 2005.


First, to ask "why" God did such and such is to assume that mere men can understand the infinite mind of God; so such questions are generally futile. We can't even state with certainty "why" another human being does what he does, let alone the Creator of the universe. Whilst I both understand and appreciate your acceptance of this point, it's a bit of a cop out. 'God works in mysterious ways', yes, this I know.

{Obviously, you do not kwo this, or else you woil likely have koeldge of why this is not a cop out.}-Zarove

Secondly, it was precisely because of God's perfect love for ALL men that He founded the Church, endowed it with the power of the Holy Spirit, and commissioned it to "make disciples of ALL nations".

Yet still, thousands of years on, there are people who don't have to be tested in the same way as others.

{And soem who thse tests woidl be unnessisary. Reember why we are here, we are here to grow as spirits and learn. we are not here soley to live and wirship God, btu the worship f God makes us into better people. eahc person has different needs, and thus lives a diferent lfe capable of facilitating the lessosn they spacificlaly need to learn, and fulfilling thee part of the overall scheme of things.}- Zarove

Is God maybe telling us that the most primitive and undeveloped of people are the ones doing it right, and Christ was sent to help the (developed) sinners?

{No, since no matter if you are primative or advanced the basic moral and ethical teahcings of God can be applied, the dea that its contengent on tehcnologial development is absurd.

Again, its more about charecter than rather or not you have nternet access and GPS capabilities. what you DO withthe advancedment is more imporant than the asvancement itsself.}-Zarove

In response to that command the Apostles traveled throughout the known world, spreading the good news of salvation. So there were in fact "different Apostles for different continents", sent there by the Church, and those Apostles ordained others who likewise carried the Gospel to distant regions, a process which has continued in every age to the present day as the Church continues to obey its divine commission, sending missionaries to every nation in the world.

The known world? Was Christ (son of the all-knowing God) unaware of the as yet undiscovered continents?

{No, but, gain, barrign a alrge scale Miracle, which i will cover later, this woil have been impractical to implement.}-Zarove

The man could walk on water, he survived 40 days and 40 nights in a desert, a bit of a mission across the Atlantic to see the native indians wouldn't have been a problem for him.

{Now where have I head this before... oh yeah, have you ever read the Book of Mormon?}-Zarove

He didn't tell anyone about any other lands, thinking about it.

{He barley spoke abot orme and Israel, his ministry was about morality an ethics, not politics...}-Zarove

If Christ was going to found a Church, it had to start somewhere. Would you suggest that He be born, carry on His public ministry, and found His Church in many places simultaneously?

Well why not? He's Christ. Why not tell everyone at once, surely it's fairer?

{And less practical. Besides, accordign tosome he did precicely this.

Christ has two natures,l this you shidl know, Human and divine. Humans canot bilocate to my knwoldge, and thought he had miraculous powers, to do so woidl eliminate te UNIQUE incarnation, since now theres SEVERAL, an thus obliterate the ONE OF A KIND SACRIFICE FOR SINS.

But I suppose we cna ignore thta thological point...we have to be "Fair" by tellign veryone at once...}-Zarove

He revealed the turht to a small number frst, ebcause it wodil have been impossibel baring a alrge scale miracle to diemenate information to everyone all at once.

Impossible? For the son of God? God personified, according to some.

{Did you read what I said carefully? I said "Barring a large scale miracle". I didnt ya it was Imposisble for God to do itthis way, i said "Barring a alrge scale miracle". really, you arent here to listen and exchange bu t dictate your own sceptisism as fac and truth and boost yor ego, we've dealt with your kind before.}-Zarove

He chose the Jews and gave them Israel for a reason, one peopel to form and mould intot he crrect midnset needed to fulfill his plan. and look a the Pormised Land, right on the crossroads of the world, the trade routes and roman roads ensured that the messgae woil be carried far and wide.

Definitely. But objectively, that's nothing to do with God.

{So God choosing a certain people to mould has nothign to do with God?}-Zarove

That's just manipulatively ensuring that your message reaches as many people as possible, that can be done by spammers, to be fair.

{And marketeers. and tradesmen. and Politicians. and Philosophers. and basiclay everyone. Thats how the owrld works. And its nto rellay "Manipulation' as a perjorative, rather tis called "Securign the widest distrebution possible", wich is nto wrogn in the least.}- Zarove

Why bother waiting for the trade routes?

{He also FORMED the trade routes, he didnt WAIT for them...}-Zarove

God wiped out the earth with a flood when he wanted to make his power known, I don't see why he'd have had to wait for a message to spread.

{Seveal errors here.

1: he did not wipe the world out iwht a flood to make his pwoer known. Sayign suhc betrays gross ignorance of the Flood acocint. He wiped everyone out to ELIINATE them. Had Noah not been righeous, he too woidl have been eliminated and then there woudl be no one to sing the prauses.

This wasnt abtu God showing of how powerful he was, btu the desruction fo the wicked.

2: God didnt wait for the trade outes to open, rather, he took centuries to mould the atetudes of the peopel on eart to prepaire them to ACCEPT the message. Spreain the messgae isnt enoigh, yuo have to make sure the peopel are able to udnetna it and will be willign to accept it.

3: God had his hand in moulidng the trade routes and nation-states, he didnt just sit and wait and do nothgin till the time war ight but was activley invovled in creating the world condiitons nessisary to ensure slavaiton.}=Zarove

Joan of Arc gets all kinds of saints coming and chatting to her, why doesnt everyone else,

{1: How do you know she wasnt Shcitzophrinic?

2: Some peopel do. Many arent open to that sor of thing, and othes have no need for it. I for one dont personally WANT to chatter with the saits regularly sinc it woilbt be beneficial to me currently.}- Zarove

if we're going to be completely, fairly all-loving?

{You confuse "All loving" with "Total equality" which si a recent Human invention. w arnet made exctly the same. as a reslt, w dotn like the same movies, read he same books, wear the same clothes, ect...

We liekwise have difeent needs.

Since we live our lives to learn spaciifc lessons and brign abotu a spacific end, we cannot, and shall not , have 100% the same experinces. our lives are suficiently similar to secure salvaito and overall access t everythign we need and want, and to God and his ways an wisdom. But w arnet all goign to be given the same gifts and curses.

Indeed, it woil be LESS lovign to give the same to all epopel as many woidl be destoryed by such gifts.}-Zarove



-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), January 29, 2005.


Joan of Arc gets all kinds of saints coming and chatting to her, why doesnt everyone else, if we're going to be completely, fairly all- loving?

***I can't get into this much and for that I apologize. I'm too busy over here and trying to prepare myself for Lent. As for Joan of Arc, all I can say is that I read my children's Saint book about her and a few different books. She was not like you or I. When she was only 6yo (correct me if I am wrong..might be off by a few years), she had a passion for our Lord that you and I did not at that age. She wanted more than anything in her life to receive Him in Holy Communion! Saints are not equal to us. They put God first in their daily lives. Their very breath was to breathe in what He could give. They did not live to satisfy their wants, but only the wants of Him. If you want to say you lived and breathed all about God since you were born and still do then maybe you need to have more patience. God will reach us when He wants us. Don't hold your standards to those of Saints UNLESS you have lived as they have. I know I haven't. I am a great sinner compared to many and to say we must be given equal to the saints is being plain and simple, SELFISH.

God Bless.

-- jalapeno (jalapeno52000@hotmail.com), January 30, 2005.



Obviously, you do not kwo this, or else you woil likely have koeldge of why this is not a cop out.

What I 'know' and what you 'know' are two very different things. Whilst it's reasonable for you, it's not for me. It doesn't have to be reasonable for me either, cos I'm not a Christian.

eahc person has different needs, and thus lives a diferent lfe capable of facilitating the lessosn they spacificlaly need to learn, and fulfilling thee part of the overall scheme of things.

So the people who haven't heard the word of God. They receive different life lessons from God, in order to fit into his overall scheme, without needing to know about him. Why couldn't everyone do that? Why did God feel the need to make some people choose, could God not stomach the idea of not getting credit at least in some part for his creation? Why must some of us conform to God's will, but for others there is no such test of faith?

No, since no matter if you are primative or advanced the basic moral and ethical teahcings of God can be applied, the dea that its contengent on tehcnologial development is absurd.

Again, its more about charecter than rather or not you have nternet access and GPS capabilities. what you DO withthe advancedment is more imporant than the asvancement itsself.

Okay, but should the basic moral teachings be applied to the undeveloped? If they're getting into heaven without even hearing Christ's name, why should they have to sudenly change their ways? My point is that maybe in God's eyes, you're actually closer to him if you haven't heard his message at all.

The known world? Was Christ (son of the all-knowing God) unaware of the as yet undiscovered continents?

{No, but, gain, barrign a alrge scale Miracle, which i will cover later, this woil have been impractical to implement.}-Zarove

The man could walk on water, he survived 40 days and 40 nights in a desert, a bit of a mission across the Atlantic to see the native indians wouldn't have been a problem for him.

{Now where have I head this before... oh yeah, have you ever read the Book of Mormon?}-Zarove

He didn't tell anyone about any other lands, thinking about it.

{He barley spoke abot orme and Israel, his ministry was about morality an ethics, not politics...

Why not? Isn't spreading the word the most important thing a Christian can do? Christ knew about all the other continents, why not set up churches all over the globe himself, rather than relying on man who is by comparison (and from fore-sight) going to fuck it up? Christ knew the Church would split, he knew of the world's other religions, of their locations, of their age.

And less practical. Besides, accordign tosome he did precicely this.

Christ has two natures,l this you shidl know, Human and divine. Humans canot bilocate to my knwoldge, and thought he had miraculous powers, to do so woidl eliminate te UNIQUE incarnation, since now theres SEVERAL, an thus obliterate the ONE OF A KIND SACRIFICE FOR SINS.

But I suppose we cna ignore thta thological point...we have to be "Fair" by tellign veryone at once...

Come on, if he can appear in a loaf of bread and a glass of red wine week in, week out across the globe, I don't think bilocating would have been too hard. That said, he wouldn't actually need to bilocate, thinking about it. He could have walked the globe, telling everyone, but he deliberately chose to leave millions without the word of God. Even though he was sent to spread it. The only reason I can think of that justifies this, is that God believes that all those who hear the word of God are sinners and must choose, and those who do not are pure enough for heaven already. This then leads me to think that God actually loathed the people of Rome and Israel, and felt compelled to test them before they were granted access.

So God choosing a certain people to mould has nothign to do with God?

That wasn't my point. I meant that wasn't necessarily a God-based act, a normal man could have achieved the same thing, given the right time and place.

And marketeers. and tradesmen. and Politicians. and Philosophers. and basiclay everyone. Thats how the owrld works. And its nto rellay "Manipulation' as a perjorative, rather tis called "Securign the widest distrebution possible", wich is nto wrogn in the least.

Exactly, marketeers, tradesmen, politicians and basically everyone need to, because they are just men. Christ was not, so why take such an inefficient route?

He also FORMED the trade routes, he didnt WAIT for them...

God didnt wait for the trade outes to open, rather, he took centuries to mould the atetudes of the peopel on eart to prepaire them to ACCEPT the message. Spreain the messgae isnt enoigh, yuo have to make sure the peopel are able to udnetna it and will be willign to accept it.

If you spread the message at all in the first place. Logically, a Catholic wants as many people to join them in heaven as possible, right? Well, same for all Christians pretty much. If the people who haven't heard the word are guaranteed a place in heaven, why not just stop spreading the word? Even if only one in every fifty rejects the word of God, surely that's still one that wouldn't have rejected him had they not been given the choice?

1: he did not wipe the world out iwht a flood to make his pwoer known. Sayign suhc betrays gross ignorance of the Flood acocint. He wiped everyone out to ELIINATE them. Had Noah not been righeous, he too woidl have been eliminated and then there woudl be no one to sing the prauses.

This wasnt abtu God showing of how powerful he was, btu the desruction fo the wicked.



-- Tri (tridudeheh@yahoo.com), January 30, 2005.


tri, you have accomplished what i have been trying to do since i first discovered christainity. you found an unanswerable question. several in fact. you rule, dude.

-- Alium (visitor@fromouterspace.com), January 30, 2005.

HIS arent unanswerabe, just the same old rubbish.Il show below.

bviously, you do not kwo this, or else you woil likely have koeldge of why this is not a cop out.

What I 'know' and what you 'know' are two very different things. Whilst it's reasonable for you, it's not for me. It doesn't have to be reasonable for me either, cos I'm not a Christian.

{I knew you wherent Christain, indeed your just an anti-Chrisyain bigot who hets his jolly's by trashign soemoen elses sacr beleifs to make yourself feel better. its a sign of insecurity. However, the internal logic to any hiloosphyu is not ocntengent on personal accepance of the Philoosphy. If it ehere, then we woidl have to all be Naturlaists, spinozan Pantheists, and Catholics, as all three are internallt self-contianed and consistant, but they are also mutually at odds.

Regardless of rather or not you are Christain, the internal logic wll be consisitant or nto dependant on the stircture, and ocnsiderign some of the best midns of Hisotry have explaiend Christa8n thelogy in the past 2 millinia and refined thughts on these things, its doubtful that teres much to be explaiend left.}-Zarove

eahc person has different needs, and thus lives a diferent lfe capable of facilitating the lessosn they spacificlaly need to learn, and fulfilling thee part of the overall scheme of things.

So the people who haven't heard the word of God.

{This is called "Invencible Ignorance". No one goesthough life wthout hearign the word of God, thgu many go throuh lufe wihtout hearign the spacific words of the Bible, which is the word of God in sem ways, but God's word is not limited only tot he Bible. God is manifest elsewhere as well.}-Zarove

They receive different life lessons from God, in order to fit into his overall scheme, without needing to know about him.

{This is not true at all. every culture ont heplanet knows about God, even those who ever heard of chrisyanity. China even knew about God before it contacted westerners. Japan Knw of Hod, the uspereme creator. India Knew. Auth americans knew. everyone Knows of God, and God has reahced otu to them in there culture. They als sin, and fall short, and pervert the theology, as men are wont to do even in Christanity. So Saying " Havent heard of God" is absurd.}-Zarove

Why couldn't everyone do that? Why did God feel the need to make some people choose, could God not stomach the idea of not getting credit at least in some part for his creation?

{ever hear the old pasage form Psalm 19? Its the very firts verse. The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork.

And, as noted, all cultures have knowledg eof God and are aware of his existance. the only benefit to Chrisyanity is his direct dealigns wiht the peopel who he chose to brign it about, hwoever, soem thought not all) other rleigions likewise where based on mans undertnaifng of God, in mans attmept to know and learn of God and hsi ways. }-Zarove

Why must some of us conform to God's will, but for others there is no such test of faith?

{All must conform to Gods will. thats what you miss. Its called "Natural Law", and the ocncep was origionated by a Pgan no less...Plato. all ove the world, the basoc knowlefe of Morlaity, and knowledge of God, exist. Men are expected to follow this to the best of there abilit and understanding.

christaunity teahces the true path. but for those unaware of thi path, they are judged base don what they DID know and attempt.

St.Paul speaks of this, in fact.

From romans Chapter 2.

13. (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. 14. For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: 15. Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)

You are expected to perform the law written on your heart by god form Birht, to seek God tot he best of your ability, and to the best of your undertsnading serve God.

You ar eonly uned as opposign God's wll if you openly REJECT the Chruhc, which peopel who are ignorant o its existance cant do.}-Zarove

No, since no matter if you are primative or advanced the basic moral and ethical teahcings of God can be applied, the dea that its contengent on tehcnologial development is absurd.

Again, its more about charecter than rather or not you have nternet access and GPS capabilities. what you DO withthe advancedment is more imporant than the asvancement itsself.

Okay, but should the basic moral teachings be applied to the undeveloped?

{Yes.The fac tis they WHERE preseted tot he undeveloped. Moses and his lot swherent what we in our Modern world woil call "developed."}- Zarove

If they're getting into heaven without even hearing Christ's name, why should they have to sudenly change their ways?

{If there perfectly happy living in tens and huts, why htink they wodil be happier learnign hw to build sturdy houes that can withtand sotrms and floods, and beds, and heaters for winter...

Becuase, invincible igrance doesnt excuse every sin they do, and its better to teahc them righeousness. Remember, the pirinciple of invincible ignorance doesnt exist to justify sin for those who have not heard, if they sin they are still judged sinners, it oly cunts wjhen they TRY NOT TO SIN. Since men sin inately its best to teahc em a better way.}-Zarove

My point is that maybe in God's eyes, you're actually closer to him if you haven't heard his message at all.

{This is ridiculous. You MUST hear to draw closer. Again there is a difference between God judging you base don what you did know, and beign close based on ignorance.

Igt woidl be the same as me juding the amount of freedom in a society that had no concept o Modern western freedoms, and comparign it to pur own lands. europe and the americas. Juxst because I dotn judge the peopel for not haivng the freedoms enjoy, I don think there better off either.

we don judge he ignorant as guilty of there ignorance, but we ustent mistake there ignorance for knowldge, which you do hee.

You are closer by hearign and obeying the mesage than by livign in ignoranc of the message, and stand a FAR beter chance of slavation.}- Zarove

The known world? Was Christ (son of the all-knowing God) unaware of the as yet undiscovered continents?

{No, but, gain, barrign a alrge scale Miracle, which i will cover later, this woil have been impractical to implement.}-Zarove

The man could walk on water, he survived 40 days and 40 nights in a desert, a bit of a mission across the Atlantic to see the native indians wouldn't have been a problem for him.

{Now where have I head this before... oh yeah, have you ever read the Book of Mormon?}-Zarove

He didn't tell anyone about any other lands, thinking about it.

{He barley spoke abot orme and Israel, his ministry was about morality an ethics, not politics...

Why not? Isn't spreading the word the most important thing a Christian can do?

{Yes, but Jesus wasnt a christain, which i defiend a a follower of christ...}-Zarove

Christ knew about all the other continents, why not set up churches all over the globe himself, rather than relying on man who is by comparison (and from fore-sight) going to fuck it up?

{firts off, lets nto use profanity. I now your just here to complain aboiut christainity and aren relay interested in our answrrs, and are jut her eot storke your own ego, but lets lay off the pronanity, OK, this is a fmaily boad after all.

secondly, we didnt scrw it up relaly, any mor ethan we woil have had chrust personally foudned the churhces himself.

Thirdly, you forget the principle. He wants WILLING participants. Large scale miracles may draw the crowds, but such is not faith, only beleif. Peopel wpoid beleive in Christ, but woidl nto apply his principles.

Its the same problem with many Pentacostal Chruches. they fgo to he healed if variosu maladies, to witness speakign in tounges, ect... they may een see Miracles. btu then what?

The poin was ot build charecter, not to dispay power. This is likewise th msitake you made iwhthte flood.

To build charecter, WE have to work at this, otheriwse,is meanignless. Preachers gorw spiritually by preaching, and we grow by listening. Had christ doen as tyo said, we woid be awed by the miracles and not by the lessons.}-Zarove

Christ knew the Church would split, he knew of the world's other religions, of their locations, of their age.

{So?}-Zarove

And less practical. Besides, accordign tosome he did precicely this.

Christ has two natures,l this you shidl know, Human and divine. Humans canot bilocate to my knwoldge, and thought he had miraculous powers, to do so woidl eliminate te UNIQUE incarnation, since now theres SEVERAL, an thus obliterate the ONE OF A KIND SACRIFICE FOR SINS.

But I suppose we cna ignore thta thological point...we have to be "Fair" by tellign veryone at once...

Come on, if he can appear in a loaf of bread and a glass of red wine week in, week out across the globe, I don't think bilocating would have been too hard.

{Not everyone her is Cahtolic. Beside that, transubstantiation is for the faithful, and not those who are hearign or the first time.

Again, the Micaculous often detracts form the moral lessons, this is why Buddha counsiled agaisnt miralces hismelf!

Christ is no differen and no fool. The faiht isn abotu miracls and shwoign off powrr, its abotu buildign charecter. sicne you arent a christain and are here to complain abouthteh faiht and find an excuse for hwy it sucks, I dontthink you will consider this seriously for any length of time, but relaly, dont be stupid here.}-Zarove

That said, he wouldn't actually need to bilocate, thinking about it. He could have walked the globe, telling everyone, but he deliberately chose to leave millions without the word of God.

{No one is without the word of God, as everyone has it imprinted on there very souls. all the hcurhcdoes is to identify it...}-Zarove

Even though he was sent to spread it.

{He as sent ot die, not to spread the word...Thats out job...}-Zarove

The only reason I can think of that justifies this, is that God believes that all those who hear the word of God are sinners and must choose, and those who do not are pure enough for heaven already.

{Then you are a fool, who ifgnroe the relaity.

1: everyon has heard th word of God.

2: Buildign hcarecter doesnt happen by miracles, it happens by workign at the mroal lessons.Thus the buildign of hcurhces must be hard or else we beome complacent.}-Zarove

This then leads me to think that God actually loathed the people of Rome and Israel, and felt compelled to test them before they were granted access.

{Then yo are abysmall ignorant of Hiotry, theology, world rleigion, philosophu, and practicality.

All peopels knwo God and his basic morals. its wirtten on there very suls, as stated, this is the principle of natural law spoken of by Plato.

Likeise, had chist doen as you suggest and persoally foudned all Chruhces all ove the world by hand, usign miracles and suh to do this superhuman feat, he woild ten eliminate the profit form workign toward a mroal life and create a sideshow attraction.}-Zarove

So God choosing a certain people to mould has nothign to do with God?

That wasn't my point. I meant that wasn't necessarily a God-based act, a normal man could have achieved the same thing, given the right time and place.

{A normal man can redirect trade routes, armeis, genrate several successive military victories and fialtues, aise Kings, judges, porphets, and shape an netire naitonal identity over the couxe of 1500 or so years??? remember, yo said God "WAITED FOR TRADE ROUTES TO DEVELOP" this is what i was answering. h didnt wait for the conditions to be rigjt, he moudled he consitions.

Likewise, a Normal man canot raise fom the dead after three days.If you wantit prove me wring Im sure we can allow you to test it on yourself, bnut I counsil agaisnt it.}-Zarove

And marketeers. and tradesmen. and Politicians. and Philosophers. and basiclay everyone. Thats how the owrld works. And its nto rellay "Manipulation' as a perjorative, rather tis called "Securign the widest distrebution possible", wich is nto wrogn in the least.

Exactly, marketeers, tradesmen, politicians and basically everyone need to, because they are just men. Christ was not, so why take such an inefficient route?

{The route was effeceint, especially since overt miracles woidl detract fromt he mroal lessons and make it a side show. baout miralcs and helaign and not mrolaity.}-Zarove

He also FORMED the trade routes, he didnt WAIT for them...

God didnt wait for the trade outes to open, rather, he took centuries to mould the atetudes of the peopel on eart to prepaire them to ACCEPT the message. Spreain the messgae isnt enoigh, yuo have to make sure the peopel are able to udnetna it and will be willign to accept it.

If you spread the message at all in the first place.

{which he did... check the old and New Testaments otu soemtime...}- Zarove

Logically, a Catholic wants as many people to join them in heaven as possible, right?

{Presumabely...}-Zarove

Well, same for all Christians pretty much.

{In general...}-Zarove

If the people who haven't heard the word are guaranteed a place in heaven, why not just stop spreading the word?

{whoever said hey where gurenteed? tis is the flaw to your ligic. the old " Poepe who havent heard the word are insatantly saved, so stop spreaidng the word" argument. Its stupid and moronic. Its an abuse of he idea fo Invincibe ingortance.

Ill explain it again.

Poeple are judged base don what they know and how sinerley they tred ot seek God and lead a mroal life. which eman an imoral man who knoiwjgly commits sins that harm other peel andeven himself and purposely spites God will to enter Heaven. even if hes never heard of Jesus christ. Ignorance of Jesus chirst and christainity are not an excuse for sin, only for not accepting Christ as saviour.

Thus, we are still mroally culpable for oiur actiosn and will be judged based on what we DID know, and thus MIGHT enter heacven had we never been christain IF we lead a mroal life and seek God, otherwise we are toast.}-Zarove

Even if only one in every fifty rejects the word of God, surely that's still one that wouldn't have rejected him had they not been given the choice?

{ They ALREADY reject him BEFORE beign given the choice by REFUSING AOT TIRN FORM THERTE SINS. AGAIN, THE LOGIC YOU USE IS FLAWED. YOU ASUSME IFT IS cHRISTAIN TEACHIGN TO SAY THAT EVERYONE WHO fails to hear the word fo God is instantly saved, this is not whats taught.

You can still be damned in ignorance. You are judged based on what you know, not based on if you knew or not. so simpley not knowign christ at all and not hearign the christain message isnt a gurentee of salvation, as you currently presuppose, and the sinners still get damend even without hearign the word.}-Zarove

1: he did not wipe the world out iwht a flood to make his pwoer known. Sayign suhc betrays gross ignorance of the Flood acocint. He wiped everyone out to ELIINATE them. Had Noah not been righeous, he too woidl have been eliminated and then there woudl be no one to sing the prauses.

This wasnt abtu God showing of how powerful he was, btu the desruction fo the wicked.

Okay, my bad. My actual point still stands though, he can do whatever the fuck he wants, such as large-scale miracles.

{Again, mind he profanity. and I explaiend why a large scale miralce isnt used hee...}-Zarove

He can also ensure that people hear his message, using the Holy Spirit or various saints (as with Joan of Arc), but he deliberately chose not to.

{At least accordign to you and your limited mind. However, the relaity is he hose TO presrnthimself, this is why Natural law exists and several rleigions emerged. men have sought God in all cultures arudn the globe and even today ateism is in the minority. een among those hwo HAVE NOT heard of Chrisainity...}-Zarove

And I still can't see why, if he loves us all equally.

{OK, its rellay simple.

a large scale miracle woidl make it abotu show, and not be convencing to the next generation. The firts generaton woil beleive because f the mrialces. The next generatoion woikbe sceptical, and inc eno oen bothered developing he mroals, the whole of it woidl be phycoloiclaly bancrupt and of no rela effect anyway.

So he woil aheb to reconvence them with anothe rlarge scale miralce, and repeat this at elats once per eneration, all the hwile, churhc becmes baotu witnesign irales and reminicing baout mrialces.

No one learns how to love oen another, no one learns how to cooperate, no oen learns how to lvoe God. gid is expected towork mialce after mrialce, to heal me, to make me rigch, ect...

It ceases to be aout Love and dedication, and becomes about Micales and Shows.REMEMBER WHATS IMPORTANT, whats improtant is the mroal code, NOT the miracles.}-Zarove



-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), January 30, 2005.


Not at all, Allium. In fact all of Tri’s questions are pretty basic ones which anyone who knew even a little about Christian theology would not embarrass himself by asking. And Tri please don’t use profanity.

“So the people who haven't heard the word of God. They receive different life lessons from God, in order to fit into his overall scheme, without needing to know about him.” They DO know Him to a greater or lesser extent.

“ Why couldn't everyone do that? Why did God feel the need to make some people choose, could God not stomach the idea of not getting credit at least in some part for his creation? “ Because God in His mercy came to redeem us and give us the Truth to set us free from our sin.

“Why must some of us conform to God's will, but for others there is no such test of faith? “ We ALL must conform to God’s will. In God’s mercy He has shown us how to do it each in our own circumstances of life.

“Okay, but should the basic moral teachings be applied to the undeveloped?” You seem to think that “undeveloped” and “ignorant of the Gospel” are synonyms. At one stage pagan civilizations in various places throughout the world were more technologically developed than Christian areas.

“ If they're getting into heaven without even hearing Christ's name, why should they have to sudenly change their ways?” They aren’t getting into Heaven unless they deserve it through the way they act in their lives. It is a hell of a lot harder to be a good person if you haven’t heard the Gospel or received the Sacraments.

“Isn't spreading the word the most important thing a Christian can do?” One of the most important. But (pace Zarove) the most important aspect of Christ’s ministry, the reason He became Man, was NOT His teaching on morality and ethics, but His Passion, Death, and Resurrection. This only He, one Man, could do, in one place at one time, for all men at all times.

“ Christ knew about all the other continents, why not set up churches all over the globe himself, rather than relying on man who is by comparison (and from fore-sight) going to %$#* it up?” He chooses to work THROUGH the “inefficient route” of sinful men to establish and spread His Church. Sure, God could work impressive miracles all around the world and people would be impressed. But that wouldn’t make them Christian or even make them morally good. In His earthly ministry, He was followed around by thousands of people who oohed and aahed at the miracles He performed. But the vast majority of them DIDN’T believe in Him, as they showed on Good Friday when they screamed for Him to be crucified. It’s true that Christ is fully God and as God knows everything. But He ALSO is fully man and in His life on earth had a fully human nature. As such He didn’t “know” things like the existence of America with His human intellect. His human intellect didn’t even “know” for sure everything that would happen in the future. But He trusted and loved His Father perfectly.

“If the people who haven't heard the word are guaranteed a place in heaven, why not just stop spreading the word?” They’re definitely not guaranteed that.

“ Even if only one in every fifty rejects the word of God, surely that's still one that wouldn't have rejected him had they not been given the choice?”

EVERYONE is given the choice. “God gives every man the means to salvation PROVIDED no obstacle is put in the way by the man himself.” (St Augustine) But without hearing and accepting the Gospel and being baptized and receiving the other Sacraments Christ instituted, it’s a lot harder. For example a pre-Christian Aztec, brought up in a culture that practices widespread human sacrifice? Do you really think it’s EASIER or even “guaranteed” that he will get to Heaven? Nonsense! “He can also ensure that people hear his message, using the Holy Spirit or various saints (as with Joan of Arc), but he deliberately chose not to. And I still can't see why, if he loves us all equally.”

Some people are so determined not to believe (because they love their sins so much) that even if their dead brothers came back from the dead and spoke to them about Heaven and Hell, they would not change their ways. As Christ said, if they don’t believe on the evidence they have, they won’t believe even if their dead brothers come back and speak to them either.

-- Steve (55555@aol.com), January 30, 2005.


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