I have a protestant friend who claims about 90 percent of his congregation speaks tongues. Is this for real. I mean, is speaking in tongues that easy to access outside the Church? Why would the Holy Spirit talk to them without saying anything about the Catholic Church. I rarely hear of it in the Catholic Church and could never really understand God's reason for giving the gift of tongues. I dont even really understand what speaking in tongues is. I asked my buddy what he says when he speaks in tongues and he responded that he doesn't know. What's up with that? I'm very skeptical not about tongues, but about how so many protestants do it.

Can anyone please explain to me what it is all about and the reasons for it?

-- DJ (newfiedufie@msn.com), January 23, 2005

Answers

bump

-- DJ (newfiedufie@msn.com), January 23, 2005.

One more thing. My friend also said that they speak it when they are Baptised in the Holy Spirit. He said this isn't like water Baptism. I told him you can ony be baptised in the Holy Spirit though Water Baptism. Am I wrong, or am im just misunderstanding what he means?

-- DJ (newfiedufie@msn.com), January 23, 2005.

um, speaking in tongues is legit, it's in the bible. but speaking in tongues nowadays is usually a bogus issue. if you read the passage of the day of pentacost, you'll notice that speaking in tongues was a gift of the spirit in order to glorify God and spread the good news, recruiting new christians, basically. lately, i've heard about churches who give LESSONS on how to speak in tongues! i personally know people who do it (falsely) to show that they are "holier than thou."

some churches think that if you don't speak in tongues, you're not baptised with the holy spirit. some believe that speaking in tongues means the devil won't understand your prayers cuz you're talking directly to God in the tongue of angels. some believe that speaking in tongues never happens nowadays, it's just a new testament concept. there are so many different and false claims about it that it can be really confusing!!!

i won't claim to be all knowledgable here, but i'll tell you what, pray about your friends, ask God to open your eyes and see the truth. you might be surprised that he'll answer your prayer, hopefully you won't be surprised. the gifts of the spirit exist, it's just that people like to be all proud about them. they also like to pretend the gift is bigger than it really is. don't get me wrong, i love God's gifts, but when people use them under false pretences, it's scary. they will use the gifts to make themselves look extra special.

i have the opportunity to hear from many missionaries and their stories are phenom. they are the most humble people who get to witness the most miraculous things cuz the church is so full of faith where they are located. but it sounds like your friend goes to a church where faith is based on how much they speak in tongues, it's like a forced faith. have you ever heard from people who go to churched like that when they're young? they grow up thinking that God is not in their lives unless they can babble out some nonsense. so they fake it one day and mommy and daddy get all proud and claim that the kid found jesus. it's very sad.

don't get sucked into every wind of doctrine, ask God to help you discern the spirits so you can tell what the truth is.

-- rina (hellorina@aol.com), January 23, 2005.

There are a lot of charismatic prayer groups in the Catholic Church, which I bet you could find. I have prayed with a few, and am so pleased to see the gifts of the Spirit active, with participants under the protection and guidance of the local bishop or priest. The typical "Life in the Spirit Seminar" involves laying on of hands *after Confirmation* so that the Gift of the Spirit given in Baptism and/or Confirmation may be unleashed.

But to get to your question: "The Spirit blows where it chooses" (John 3:8). God gives all grace in Jesus Christ and through His Body the Church. However, those graces don't all stay in Rome! Grace is unleashed first for all who believe and are baptized, but indeed for the entire world, so that the world might be saved!

Remember when Jesus' disciples were upset because a man was casting out demons in Christ's name, but he wasn't "one of them"? Jesus' reply is interesting: He said, "Whoever does a good work in my name cannot speak ill of me. Whoever is not against you is for you."

The groups and individuals you speak of also have "a certain communion" with the Catholic Church. They may not recognize it, but they are related to us, just incompletely since they don't share the same Bishops and Sacraments as Rome. But that doesn't stop God from working in their midst, through His *Word*. God doesn't only work through Sacraments, He also uses the Scriptures and Prayer.

God's love isn't hoarded in the Catholic Church, but sent out for the life of the world.

-- Michael (edwardsronning@prodigy.net), January 23, 2005.

I know there is such a thing as tongues. But i mean this guy once showed me himself and started rambling off some strange sounding words. He did it so quickly that i found it odd. I asked him what he said and he said he doesnt know. What is the whole point? What does this gift do if one doesn't even understand what they are saying. Also, what does to Baptise in the Holy Spirit mean when "they" say it?

-- DJ (newfiedufie@msn.com), January 23, 2005.

Hello DJ

Read 1 Corinthians 12-14 for a full account. My take on it is this. Speaking in tongues is a gift whereby the intellect is bypassed--it is rather, the language of the heart. One communes with God, speaking the language of love. It isn't an intellectual thing, but a practice of devotion.

What is the point?

1. Sometimes I don't know how to pray, what words to use. If I use my prayer tongue, I trust that the Spirit understands what the prayer is, even if I don't. The prayer comes from God's heart, to my heart, back to God again--and is the call of the Spirit to the Father whether I understand it or not.

2. It refreshes the spirit, is a joyful, peaceful time with God.

3. It can be a witness to others on occasion. Once I spoke a prayer in tongues and the couple sitting next to me started crying with emotion. "What is it", I asked. "When did you learn to speak Norwegian?" they said. "You prayed that God would bless our son and remain with him always." Now, I had no idea I said that; but the Holy Spirit used the right words through me even though I was ignorant.

Also, the word "baptism" is used in various ways in sacred Scripture. Usually it means the Sacrament of Holy Baptism, washing with water and God's word. But sometimes it means the pouring out of the gifts of the Holy Spirit, as on the day of Pentecost among the early apostles, Mary, and the first Christians. Your Protestant friends are using the word in its latter sense.

By the way, an interesting and weird thing I should mention, DJ. I can't confirm this since I haven't looked it up, but I've read it in several Catholic books on the Holy Spirit. Namely, that the pope had written a letter in 1900, calling on the Holy Spirit to renew the earth--and on January 1, 1901, the Holy Spirit was poured out--upon Protestants in Kansas, who became the first Pentecostals! So the Holy Spirit came in answer to the Holy Father's prayer, but perhaps not in the way he expected!

-- Michael (edwardsronning@prodigy.net), January 23, 2005.

There is no point in speaking in tounges if nobody is there to understand it. "If any man speak in an unkown tongue, lt it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by cource and let one interpret. But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God" (1Cor 14:27-28)

For all he knows he is speaking babble, or even is saying worrship the devil. Bottom line, what is the point of speaking tongues outloud when you or nobody else understands?

"For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all Churches of the Saints" (1Cor 14:33)

Why would God give us a prophecy that not a person could understand? I'm sure not every pentacostal fakes speaking in tongues, but i doubt that all is from the holy spirit, i believe there is evil works at hand

"Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will i confess also before my father which is in heaven. But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will i deny before my father which is in heaven." (Matt 10:32-33)

-- kat (riesoracle@hotmail.com), January 23, 2005.

"He said this isn't like water Baptism. I told him you can ony be baptised in the Holy Spirit though Water Baptism. Am I wrong, or am im just misunderstanding what he means?"

You are not wrong.

-- Emerald (em@cox.nett), January 23, 2005.

Thanks everone for your responsed.

Sometimes I don't know how to pray, what words to use. If I use my prayer tongue, I trust that the Spirit understands what the prayer is, even if I don't. The prayer comes from God's heart, to my heart, back to God again--and is the call of the Spirit to the Father whether I understand it or not.

Michael, i was always taught that prayer should not be said quickly but to focus on each words. How can this be done if you dont even know what you are saying. It sounds to me like tongues as you described is like humming a song in praise.

Also, the word "baptism" is used in various ways in sacred Scripture. Usually it means the Sacrament of Holy Baptism, washing with water and God's word. But sometimes it means the pouring out of the gifts of the Holy Spirit, as on the day of Pentecost among the early apostles, Mary, and the first Christians. Your Protestant friends are using the word in its latter sense. Can you give me some verses in which the word Baptism isn't used in the same way as the Sacrament of Baptism? Thanks.

-- DJ (newfiedufie@msn.com), January 23, 2005.

Sorry, my last question is mixed in with Michael's quote.

I asked "Can you give me some verses in which the word Baptism isn't used in the same way as the Sacrament of Baptism?"

-- DJ (newfiedufie@msn.com), January 23, 2005.

Hello again DJ

Like I said, read 1 Corinthians 12-14. St. Paul said he himself spoke in tongues, though prophesying was superior.

Yes, it can be like a song--that is the point. Note where Paul says, "I will sing with the spirit and I will sing with the mind also"

Kat, do you have a friend or a priest who speaks in tongues? Do you speak in tongues? Then how are you the expert in this area?

-- Michael (edwardsronning@prodigy.net), January 23, 2005.

And, I don't have my concordance in front of me, so I can't give you an exact reference, but Christ our Lord did talk about His suffering and death being a "baptism".

But (as Emerald may be hinting), "baptism" almost always refers to the Sacrament of Holy Baptism.

-- Michael (edwardsronning@prodigy.net), January 23, 2005.

Here's a thread from a previous discussion which covered some of these questions as well.

http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=00BRap

David

-- non-Catholic Christian (no@spam.com), January 23, 2005.

The point of speaking in tongues in private is because it is a prayer language. When we allow the Holy Spirit to pray through us, He prays God's perfect will for our lives and for whatever else He wants to pray through us. Another point is that tongues are, according to 1 Cor, to "edify" or strengthen us in our inner most being. It's like exercise for our spirit as it yields to the Holy Spirit in allowing us to be used as vehicles of intercession for God.

Tongues have various purposes. Private prayer and private worship are the most frequent application. Personally, when I pray in tongues, I can sense an overwhelming closeness to God, so it functions as a source of enjoying intimacy with God.

David

-- non-Catholic Christian (no@spam.com), January 23, 2005.

As St Paul points out, praying in a language unknown to the speaker is absolutely pointless unless there is someone there who understands it. If you are praying alone you don’t need to pray out loud at all, as God knows your thoughts.

I have no doubt that most if not all of the “speaking in tongues” which occurs in some protestant churches is either deliberately fraudulent or self-deception. I recall a study (sorry don’t have a ref to it) where this “speaking in tongues” (by many different people in different denominations and of different native languages)was tape- recorded, and the tapes studied by expert linguists. They found that invariably, the “tongues” never resemble any known language, but consist simply of repetitions of a small number of simple syllables which occur in the speaker’s own native language. Speakers never use syllables or speech forms which do not occur in their own language (eg the “tones” of Oriental languages are never used by non-tone- language speakers). I.e. it’s not much more than “rhubarb rhubarb rhubarb”.

-- Steve (55555@aol.com), January 23, 2005.

Steve,

Actually, St Paul clearly teaches that speaking in tongues has different roles for indivdiuals versus congregations.

1 COR 14:18 "I thank God, I speak in tongues more than you all; however, in the church I desire to speak five words with my mind so that I may instruct others also, rather than ten thousand words in a tongue."

See how he says he speaks in tongues more than anyone and then says "however, in the church . . ." meaning that most of his tongues speaking is outside te church.

What I said earlier is correct. See how in 1 COR 14, Pauls says "One who speaks in a tongue edifies himself; but one who prophesies edifies the church. Now I wish that you all spoke in tongues, but even more that you would prophesy; and greater is one who prophesies than one who speaks in tongues, unless he interprets, so that the church may receive edifying."

We further know that not all tongues are for personal, spiritual use when we read, also in 1 COR 14, "For one who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God; for no one understands, but in his spirit he speaks mysteries." If it says "no one understands" because "he speaks mysteries", then we can know it serves a purpose in the life of the believer in speaking to God - prayer and does not need to be interpreted.

David

-- non-Catholic Christian (no@spam.com), January 23, 2005.

Oops, that last paragraph should have read . . .

We further know that not all tongues are for corporate use and require interpretation, because in 1 COR 14, we see a very personal, spiritual use when we read, "For one who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God; for no one understands, but in his spirit he speaks mysteries." If it says "no one understands" because "he speaks mysteries", then we can know it serves a purpose in the life of the believer in speaking to God - prayer and does not need to be interpreted.

David

-- non-Catholic Christian (no@spam.com), January 23, 2005.

Michael, why yes i do know someone who spoke in "tongues". No that doesnt make me an expert.

1. Sometimes I don't know how to pray, what words to use. If I use my prayer tongue, I trust that the Spirit understands what the prayer is, even if I don't. The prayer comes from God's heart, to my heart, back to God again--and is the call of the Spirit to the Father whether I understand it or not.

Isn't that why Jesus gave us the Our Father?

2. It refreshes the spirit, is a joyful, peaceful time with God.

Any prayer and worship with god should.

3. It can be a witness to others on occasion. Once I spoke a prayer in tongues and the couple sitting next to me started crying with emotion. "What is it", I asked. "When did you learn to speak Norwegian?" they said. "You prayed that God would bless our son and remain with him always." Now, I had no idea I said that; but the Holy Spirit used the right words through me even though I was ignorant.

That is a valid reason, but you can't make yourself do that, nor is every Catholic/Christian blessed with that ability. My issue is that pentacostals magnify the importants of spiritual "gifts". That some seem to think that if you don't recieve the gift of speaking in tongues, you are not chosen by God to recieve salvation. So much do they do this that some people feel the need to "fake" speaking in tongues. I know of two people who have done this as a result. One just happens to be my husband, his mother is pentacostal and she thought he wouldn't be saved unless he had these gifts and she just kept pressuring him and he finally just faked it. What I am getting at is that speaking in tounges for no reason just because you wanted to show your friend how to do it is not real. Unless it is inspired by a demon. I'm sure thier are exeptions to everything, but i don't believe that tongues is as common as we think.

-- kat (riesoracle@hotmail.com), January 23, 2005.

3. It can be a witness to others on occasion. Once I spoke a prayer in tongues and the couple sitting next to me started crying with emotion. "What is it", I asked. "When did you learn to speak Norwegian?" they said. "You prayed that God would bless our son and remain with him always." Now, I had no idea I said that; but the Holy Spirit used the right words through me even though I was ignorant. --- -----------------------------------------------------------------

i am glad that you were used by the holy spirit it such an awesome way. but that doesn't mean that EVERYONE who speaks in tongues is really speaking in tongues. i know people that have faked it, i know people that think they're doing it but they're really just repeating the same few syllables over and over, every single time i've prayed with them.

also, most people i've seen speaking in tongues are claiming that they're using the language of angels tongues. it seems that no one i know has had the experience of using the tongue of the person sitting next to them on the bus. in fact, i don't see a single reference in the bible where the apostles spoke in tongues just to speak in tongues, but rather, they spoke in tongues of the language of the other people in order to further the ministry.

paul's point about keeping quiet in church is a very valid point. imagine trying to evangelize and bringing people into your church only to scare them off with all the wild tongue things going on, even if they really are inspired by the holy spirit. now imagine that things are done in an orderly fashion, and only a couple of people speak in tongues with their interpreters next to them so that the new people in your church don't think you guys are crazy.

i'm not saying that your church is the crazy kind with the people who claim the spirit is making them bark like dogs, by the way!!! but we have to be aware that there ARE false prophets, and false miracles and false everything that pertains to God because the devil wants to lead people away from the true God who gives the true gifts.

remember, paul exorcised a demon from the psychic girl even though the girl was proclaiming a truth. just because a person speaks the truth, doesn't mean that the source is a good source! you know people by their fruits. if they speak in tongues, and if they look humble, but something just doesn't seem right, like they can't seem to control themselves and they just HAVE to speak with no interpreter, then maybe it's not the holy spirit. remember, paul calls for the church to have some semblance of order and one fruit of the holy spirit is SELF CONTROL.

-- rina (hellorina@aol.com), January 23, 2005.

Rina,

You obviously didn't read my post.

David

-- non-Catholic Christian (no@spam.com), January 23, 2005.

Rina,

Sorry about that, I should have clarified what I was referring to. You said, "in fact, i don't see a single reference in the bible where the apostles spoke in tongues just to speak in tongues, but rather, they spoke in tongues of the language of the other people in order to further the ministry." From reading my post, Paul clearly says he uses tongues more than anyone in his private prayer life. In fact, your point, that tongues are used to spread the gospel to people of different languages only occurred one time in scripture, so that's actually the more unusual instance of tongues. Whenever Paul says "pray" or "sing" "in the Spirit", he's talking about praying or singing in tongues. It was meant to be part of the prayer life of every believer.

David

-- non-Catholic Christian (no@spam.com), January 23, 2005.

DAVID

in fact, i wasn't even referring to your post. sorry for the confusion. DJ's post didn't specify when and how these friends of his speak in tongues. so i just gave examples of tongues in my own life in case these were the circumstances that he was experiencing also.

regarding the bible and examples of tongues. all i said was that i couldn't see any reference, so if you'd like to share them with me, i would be grateful. i'm currently not studying about tongues right now and as you may know, reading the bible in a different light each time is like reading a whole library of books! i was just saying that the bible doesn't really specify EXACTLY what it's like to speak in a tongue, therefore people can put their own evil spin on it. like i mentioned before in a previous example, i know people that fake it. even of people who PRACTICE doing it. i have no doubt that the gift exists and is present in our day and age, but i doubt that everyone who does it is genuine. just like all those prophets out there who are not genuine.

-- rina (hellorina@aol.com), January 24, 2005.

“From reading my post, Paul clearly says he uses tongues more than anyone in his private prayer life.” No David he doesn’t clearly say that at all. That’s just your personal interpretation of his simple statement that “I speak in tongues more than you all”. The whole point of 1 Cor 14 is to tell the Corinthians to greatly REDUCE their use of “tongues”.

“Whenever Paul says "pray" or "sing" "in the Spirit", he's talking about praying or singing in tongues. It was meant to be part of the prayer life of every believer.” Again, this is your own unauthorized personal interpretation based on your personal enthusiasm for “tongues”.

-- Steve (55555@aol.com), January 24, 2005.

-see also here for thorough discussion on this forum:

How old is your church?

Additionally, again -this caveat regarding practice:

1 Corinthians 14:27-28

27 "If anyone speaks in a tongue, let it be two or at most three, and each in turn, and one should interpret.

28 But if there is no interpreter, the person should keep silent in the church and speak to himself and to God."



-- Daniel Hawkenberry (dlm@catholic.org), January 24, 2005.

My biggest problem with the claim of my friends, is that speaking in tongues is a gift that is given. Not everyone can do it, yet 90 percent of his church can. It just doesn't sound right.

-- DJ (newfiedufie@msn.com), January 24, 2005.

"My biggest problem with the claim of my friends, is that speaking in tongues is a gift that is given. Not everyone can do it, yet 90 percent of his church can. It just doesn't sound right."

DJ--90% is relative many of these denominations are very small. Speaking in tongues is valid IF you have some there which interprets what is being said. (i.e.) message, prayer.

Key thing to pay attention to if you ever have the chance, go to one of their revivals and sit in the back to observe. Pay attention to the music being played prior to increased activity or new converts to being Baptised in the Spirit. Most often this will occur with the same short verse being played Over and over and over and over again. Just like the clicking of there speech, same words, sames words. It crosses over into the physical side over the human nervous system just like a drum beat set at the pace of a womens heart x#beats per minute brings comfort and peace. Increase or slow it down and the person will follow.

BUT as I said there IS VALID Speaking in tongues....

-- Michael G. (NoEmail@Nowhere.no), January 24, 2005.

Steve,

I'm actually not giving you my personal interpretation. If you'd take the time to study official Catholic Church teachings on the charismata, you'd find that my interpretations are consistent with Catholic teaching. Read through the linked threads and take a look at some of the related topics at www.newadvent.org, I suspect you'll learn much.

Rina, I'd suggest the same to you. Both you and Steve obviously know your faith pretty well and love God and the Church. My purpose for posting is to encourage all to seek out the true gifts of the Holy Spirit and earnestly desire them as the scripture tells us. The Holy Spirit doesn't give out garbage. If they are His gifts and He wants us to have them and function in them, we ought to consider them treasures from Heaven, learn all we can about them and then pursue them as Paul admonishes us to do. Too often, people reject the gifts out of misunderstandings and lack of proper teachings. Please don't let that stand in your way. Ask God to teach you the truth and begin to open your heart to the workings of the Spirit.

David

-- non-Catholic Christian (no@spam.com), January 24, 2005.

Here's an excellent article (actually part II of a 2 part article) from a Catholic Charismatic website that would be a good starting place for research.

http://www.garg.com/ccc/articles/Van_Cleef/Gifts/tongues_b.html

It speaks much more thoroughly to the issues I was addressing. Please read it and consider it.

Thanks

David

-- non-Catholic Christian (no@spam.com), January 24, 2005.

David,

i gave that website an honest look because i honestly do believe that God's gifts are active in the church. but i failed to see how the verses regarding singing were equivalent to "singing in tongues." i pretty much have an open mind towards God, if someone shows me that i'm wrong i pray about it and realize that i'm wrong. but i've asked God about this and I'm not lead to believe that these verses apply like you and the website say that they apply. this isn't to say that the gift of tongues doesn't exist, but rather, maybe you could give some verses that really DO relate to singing with tongues.

-- rina (hellorina@aol.com), January 24, 2005.

OK, let's focus on how singing in tongues is the same thing as singing in the Spirit.

1 COR 14:14

"For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful. What is the outcome then? I will pray with the spirit and I will pray with the mind also; I will sing with the spirit and I will sing with the mind also. Otherwise if you bless in the spirit only, how will the one who fills the place of the ungifted say the "Amen" at your giving of thanks, since he does not know what you are saying?"

These verses, along with those preceding and proceeding all address the gift of tongues. It says that when one prays in tongues, the scripture says your spirit is praying but your mind is unfruitful, so he says to pray in the spirit as well as pray with your mind. So Paul equates praying in tongues as meaning the same thing as prayng in the spirit. Then Paul extends the principle from prayer to praise/worship when he says that we should sing with the spirit as well as sing with the mind. So Paul is telling us that our private prayer time should include praying in tongues as well as praying with our minds in our native language and it should include singing in tongues as well as singing songs with our minds in our native tonmgue. Both have value and are value expressions of prayer and worship.

Does that make sense? Can you see that Paul uses "praying in tongues" and "praying in the spirit" as equal expressions - 2 ways of saying the same thing? And then can you see how he applies the same to singing?

David

-- non-Catholic Christian (no@spam.com), January 24, 2005.

It's not about the speaking, it's about the hearing.

Although the various persons gathered spoke in their native languages (i.e., "tongues"), each person was aided by the Holy Spirit to hear in his own language. Inexplicably, everyone understood everyone else.

"Now there were devout Jews from every nation under heaven staying in Jerusalem. At this sound, they gathered in a large crowd, but they were confused because each one heard them speaking in his own language." Acts 2:5-6.

-- Greg Douds (gdouds@earthlink.net), January 24, 2005.

But greg, wasn't that the tongues of fire? I think that the claim today of "speaking in tongues" today is of a different kind.

-- DJ (newfiedufie@msn.com), January 25, 2005.

There are different functions of the gift of tongues. Only once in scripture was it manifest as a language that each heard as their own, the day of Pentecost. Other times, it was an evidence that the Holy Spirit had filled the people, for instance when Peter was preaching to a crowd and they began prophesying and speaking in tongues, or when Peter laid hands on believers to receive the Holy Spirit. But the function that is described in 1 Cor 12 and 14 is the gift as it functions in the corporate body as a vehicle for a message to the body, if and only if it is interpreted - at that's what Paul was rebuking them about, that they were all speaking in tongues as if that had value without an interpretation occurring. But 1 Cor also describes the gift as a personal prayer and worship language that strengthens the individual - no one needs to interpret for it is edifying as it is. Romans confirms this role of tongues being used in prayer as a means of intercession, it says that the Spirit prays through us in groans and utterances the perfect will of God for whatever He chooses to pray for. It is also this function that Paul is referring to when he says that he prays in tongues more than everyone, even charcterizing his use as tens of thousands of words.

David

-- non-Catholic Christian (no@spam.com), January 25, 2005.

Rina,

I had a thought that I wanted to pass along. Earlier you had said, " i was just saying that the bible doesn't really specify EXACTLY what it's like to speak in a tongue". You know, I've had that same thought with respect to ALL of the workings of the Holy Spirit. If you look at the list of the 9 gifts of the Spirit, we see that they exist and we see some rules for how to use them, but nothing discusses what it's like to function in them. What's happening inside the person when a prophetic word hits them? What's happening inside when one speaks in another tongue - mechanically that is? Why did Jesus spit in the dirt and spread the mud in the blind man's eyes to heal him? Yes, He was God, but He didn't use His divine power to accomplish that, He used the gift of healing from the Holy Spirit just as we would. So did the Holy Spirit tell Him to do that specifically, or did it occur to Him and He did it and the Holy Spirit honored it and used it to heal the man - I always have questions like that myself.

I know what it's like to speak in tongues, to occasionally heal and to speak a word of wisdom (to know exactly what God wants to do in a given situation even if it's counter intuitive). The Lord has used me in each of those gifts of the Spirit at various times in the past and present. So I have a pretty clear sense of what happens inside when functioning in those gifts.

But I never knew much about prophesying until recently, so it was a mystery to me. But in the past 3-4 months, my priest has asked me to help pray for people in a ministry role. And I would pray for them as God led, but I was stunned when I kept getting comments from people who, after I had stopped praying, told me that what I was praying revealed their hearts and innermost desires in their walks with the Lord. They were very impacted by the prayers and seemed truly changed. My priest said it was a prophetic gift operating. I wasn't even aware of it, I would just begin to pray for people and start speaking words of encouragement in prayer as the thoughts hit my mind. And as I was praying, the person is visibly being impacted by the words, they begin crying and worshipping God. So I would continue to pray and the thoughts would seem to go deeper as the Lord encouraged them to draw close to Him. So I'm just starting to understand that gift a little. I can tell when the thoughts that hit me are not from me but are from the Lord, or at least most of the time I can tell the difference. There's a different urgency/surety about them and they don't necessarily line up with what I would intellectually or intuitively know - I just know it anyway.

Anyway, I know you didn't ask for that explanation, but I thought it might help. I guess the bottom line is that such things are not specifically addressed in scripture, but I suppose that's because the Lord trusts that the Holy Spirit, when He's working like that in us, will lead us and teach us in these gifts.

David

-- non-Catholic Christian (no@spam.com), January 25, 2005.

prophecy is easy to understand in scripture. first of all, we have the OT prophets and that's pretty much self explanatory. and then the NT says what false prophets and real prophets are. false prophets say things that don't come true right? so no matter HOW someone says something, if the person claims to be a prophet, we have something to measure their prophecies against. or if the prophecy is not for the edification of the church, then it's not from God either.

for example, when i get a word for someone, is it from my flesh or is it from God? i can easily weigh the word by comparing it to what the bible says. is the word to exhort or edify? or is my motivation to hurt the person or falsely build the person up getting in the way? can i tell the person face to face, can i call them, can i pray for them without their knowledge? the HOW's of using gifts such as these aren't so hard to grasp.

but tongues is hard to grasp for those who are wary of false teachers because the HOW's of tongues isn't specified. what is there to weigh a true spoken person and a false spoken person? at least there are examples of prophecy in the bible. one prophet is told to lay on his side for a number of days, one is told to marry a harlot, one is told to boldly approach a king, one is told to take off to a different nation... very many ways of HOW someone can prophesy.

how many examples are there for HOW one prays in tongues? not enough to warrant a full scale doctrinal proposal imho. that leaves tongues open for fake people trying to look cool. ya know, i've experienced the joy of being used by God and each time it was a unique experience. it's not something you really can qualify or quantify. and i understand that we need to fervently love and pray and worship but sometimes our human frail emotions can cloud the spiritual environment.

for example, your music lovin church sounds awesome. but when you walk into a church that seems boring and stuffy to you, why is it boring and stuffy? are you one of those people that claim the spirituality is dead because the atmosphere seems dead? i'm not saying you are a person with false gifts, i'm just cautioning that sometimes what we THINK of as spirituality is actually an emotional addiction to a cool experience.

-- rina (hellorina@aol.com), January 25, 2005.

My music loving church? Yes, we worship for about 30-45 minutes at the beginning of each Mass and it is dynamic, but I don't recall mentioning that here :-) Never-the-less, your question is valid. My answer is . . . years ago, I would have evaluated a church's spirituality on just it's worship and prayers - if they can't pray or worship, then they weren't much alive :-) Today, I understand the Presence of the Lord better than that and especially with respect to the Eucharist. If one justs sits in front of the Eucharist in adoration and meditation, the Lord is there, so spirituality is fulfilled. I hope my understanding is maturing.

By the way, New Testament prophecy is not necessarily only about predicting the future and thus one can judge based on the accuracy. The purpose of New Testament prophecy is defined in 1 COR 14:3 "But one who prophesies speaks to men for edification and exhortation and consolation." Edification, exhortation and consolation don't have much to do with predicting the future, yet that's what scripture says the role of prophecy is in the New Covenant. That doesn't provide such clear guidelines for evaluating a prophet, I'm afraid. Even Paul said that it takes a prophet or the church leadership to judge a prophecy. They have to rely on listening to the voice of the Holy Spirit inside them to do that.

David

-- non-Catholic Christian (no@spam.com), January 25, 2005.

There are at least 3 levels of prophecy.

One is when a simple group of believers pray and worship God in fellowship. Moved by the Holy Spirit, some people express messages for the good of the group, messages of repentance, correction, consolation, exhortation, encouragement, etc.. The leader within the group by various guidelines and years of experience is able discern whether it is a prophecy or whether it just human mind speaking.

Second is when leaders of the church sit together and pray to get an answer or plan an action, the Holy Spirit prompts.

Third is the rare one, like Fatima or someone special like Elijah, etc. who comes and gives some prophecy important for the church, world, etc.

-- Leslie John (lesliemon@hotmail.com), January 25, 2005.

leslie, thanks for the overview, you helped me to explain what i was trying to say. prophecy is a thing that is well spelled out, so much so, that you were able to provide me with a nice little essay about it. but tongues aren't so spelled out. that's what my concern was... that since tongues doesn't come with very many examples (although it does come with a lot of instruction!) it's easy for a false tonguer (for lack of a better label) to make people believe what their version of tongues is as opposed to God's version of it.

now if the gift of tongues ONLY entailed the types of scenarios that occurred at pentacost, there probably would be no disagreement here. but when people claim that they speak the tongues of angels, and we don't have a clear cut example of what that means, it can be confusing. thanks again.

-- rina (hellorina@aol.com), January 26, 2005.

Well, tongues are subject to the same Holy Spirit evaluation process as prophecies. A leader can sense from the Lord when someone's tongues are from the flesh (false), the Holy Spirit or even demonic. It's not really any different from most prophectic functions, only someone who can hear from the Spirit is capable of evaluating the authenticity of it. It's just that tongues aren't often submitted for such an evaluation since most tongues are spoken in private.

I have heard demonic tongues and knew it instantly in my spirit. I have also heard many flesh tongues or at best immature tongues from those who never matured in their gift. We have to realize that we operate in the gifts according to the measure of our faith and there are those who initially spoke in tongues when baptized in the Spirit, but never grew beyond that and still repeat their infantile tongues that were first spoken. As one prays in tongues faithfully in private, the Spirit matures and grows the tongues into different dialects and sounds - even noises and groans. And you learn to slow down the tongues into distinct words rather than the non-stop, rapid stream that comes out at first. Anyway, the point is, the genuine stands out. You can sense the Holy Spirit flowing when you hear it - cause if it's real, the Holy Spirit is the One speaking, even if you can't understand it. The other way is to have an interpreter present. One gifted in interpretation will always know. We have a deacon in our church who hears tongues in English, though he's aware it's tongues. He literally provides word for word translations when interpreting a tongue.

Hope that helps.

David

-- non-Catholic Christian (no@spam.com), January 26, 2005.

Rina,

Biblical evidence shows at least 3 types of tongues: 1. Praying in tongues - A movement from you towards God. Helpful for personal edification. Used in various expressions of praise, thanksgiving, intercessions, etc.

2. Speaking in tongues - A movement from you to God. Helpful for building up the group. Needs interpretation with from someone with gift of interpretation of tongues.

3. Speaking in tongues as a sign - Helpful in preaching the Good News to people who may not understand your language. Either you speak in their language or they hear you speak in their language.

-- Leslie John (lesliemon@hotmail.com), January 27, 2005.

Oops! it should be: Biblical evidence shows at least 3 types of tongues:

1. Praying in tongues - A movement from you towards God. Helpful for personal edification. Used in various expressions of praise, thanksgiving, intercessions, etc.

2. Speaking in tongues - A movement from God to you. Helpful for building up the group. Needs interpretation with from someone with gift of interpretation of tongues.

3. Speaking in tongues as a sign - Helpful in preaching the Good News to people who may not understand your language. Either you speak in their language or they hear you speak in their language.

#1 and #2 usually among believers, while #3 among unbelievers.

-- Leslie John (lesliemon@hotmail.com), January 27, 2005.